I was so stunned to see the name in the title of this video ... Keith Green's music & lyrics had a massive influence on my young life. I still play much of his piano pieces to this day, and I even played his composition, "The Lord is My Shepherd" for my audition when I applied to the Conservatorium of Music, ten years after Keith's death - and I aced it. The audition panel don't usually speak to applicants, but one of the Professors on the panel told me that she was very moved by my audition, and asked me who wrote the piece. I'm so glad to see that so many other people still remember Keith Green and his music, and to know that he had such an influence on so many others. His music lives on, but I was devastated when his plane crashed .. and until now I had no idea WHY his plane crashed. Thanks for doing this video.
For those of us who have sought to improve our fearful flyer credentials over decades, you guys are a reassurance that there are competent and experienced professionals looking over the shoulders of those currently in charge of the NTSB and, to a lesser extent, the FAA. Safe flight boils down to the effective training, diligence and conscientiousness of every person in the industry. And knowing your team is there advocating for standards is a tremendous help.
Thank you gentlemen. Keith Green and his music significantly influenced me as a teenager and continues to do so as an old man. Such a tragic crash. Two of Keith’s children perished with him. Farther along, we will know all about it. Farther along, we will understand why. 😢
I heard Keith Green in junior high and have really started listening to him. I heard his song to his son, Josiah, that is so moving. I remember when he was in an accident. So many famous people die in these smaller planes. Kobe devastated my whole city of Los Angeles. Back to my story, I heard this song today and wondered what happened to Josiah when his dad died and was devastated that he and another of Keith’s kids, age 3 and 2. You all are amazing and I signed up for your channel. I still don’t think I’d get in a small plane unless one of you were the pilot.
I have so much respect for you Greg. You have been a favourite of mine for years. Loved your input and professionalism on Air Crash Investigation and of course your colourful ties. You really cared about victims their families and getting to the truth. Cheers from Australia.
Keith Green's music, book (No Compromise) & life has been a major inspiration to me for many years. The preventable accident at his headquarters was so sad. The NTSB report is impressive. I've felt the pressure of getting a well-known person where & when he needs to go. I was hired to fly a famous meteorologist from a small east Texas town to Dallas Love Field in a Piper Arrow. Short flight, beautiful day, but it was _very windy_ and he HAD to be back in time for a newscast. I was a brand new commercial/instrument pilot, still in school, and I'm _not comfortable_ with the very strong wind. BUT this is a Famous Meteorologist (I'm avoiding his name), who's also a pilot, (adding pressure to perform), and he HAS to be back. The flight was bumpy & I'm facing strong, gusty, variable winds at Love Field. I don't have much experience in the T-tail Arrow, and I'm super-nervous about nailing a good landing. It took me nearly half of the 7,752 ft long 31R to wrestle the Arrow onto the ground! I was being blown all over the place by strong winds & over-controlling trying to make it butter-smooth, which it wasn't. I'm sure my famous passenger was uncomfortable with my long & drawn-out effort, though we were joking about it during taxi. This might not have been a life-threatening situation, but it was a flight I took on with high pressure to get it done.
Ignore Physics and it will bite you in the behind every time. I was in Seminary when this happened. It was a great tragedy all around. Keith Green was just beginning to have the impact among young people. But he trusted someone who should not have been trusted to protect the safety of the passengers and to attempt to fly a plane that would not support the load. I am an aviation enthusiast but not a pilot myself. Age is a factor and I just don't have the financial means to make it a reality.
What? I thought all military pilots were God's gift to aviation? He had no idea how to conduct a part 91 GA flight and had no experience in that model plane. I mean, none. This is a recipe for disaster, which is what we got.
@@buckmurdock2500 In the military you have weather reporters for you, and plenty of mechanics that check the airplane BEFORE EACH FLIGHT. flight planners that calculate and plan the load for you before each flight. Crew Chiefs that help you load the airplane, gives you the weather, the flight plane, the airport info and weight and balance, and all flights are monitored by ATC, and you have a copilot even on small twins. Single-seat fighters mostly fly in pairs, not alone. So basically you have 5-10 people helping you. Easier to do flights that way, unless in combat areas.
You're being too hard on the pilot. Keith was a strong personality and very persuasive. And people loved to please him. Yes, the pilot shouldn't have gone up, but it's highly likely to not be about Keith trusting the pilot, but far more likely that everyone was trusting Keith, and shouldn't have. The pilot should have said no but probably struggled to say no to Keith. I think it was a very complicated situation that is difficult to judge fairly.
@@servantofjesuschrist-tb8ns Well a lot of people who are a lot wiser about flying airplanes than I would disagree. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Great show! I am a retired firefighter (captain) and would love to support in some capacity investigating aircraft incidents-crashes! NTSB has become nothing more than a bureaucratic machine that doesn't want outside help and in no hurry to complete a investigation. The reason they (NTSB) can't tell us the reason (root-cause) is because they have not been taught or have the knowledge or care to really figure out the causation of crashes!
I loved Keith Green and his ministry, and still look for his music online. I appreciate continued followup on the fatal accident, and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Keith and his widow Melody would appreciate the truth you are uncovering. Thank you for your continued good service.
Hey fellas, I just found your channel! After watching this episode, I am DEFINITELY subscribing and "ringing the bell." Over the coming weeks, I will be doing a deep dive on your previous episodes as my time permits! Thank you for sharing this info with us! Be safe, and again, thank you for your time and efforts to bring this content to us !!!
Saw this video in my feed, figured I'd give it a look. Recognized one or two of the names of the detectives from maybe one too many Mayday episodes, didn't even need to wait for the video to finish before diving for the subscribe button.
My family always had a soft spot for Keith because in 1978 my father died in a helicopter crash and they all loved Keith's music and message. I was born 3 months after my father's crash and have always wanted to know the details, but no one will share them with me ...even 45 years later . Do you research helicopter accidents?
I remember when the plane went down. After watching the video and reading the comments it's a double tragedy. I remember another artist who insisted that some extra things be put on a plane and the pilot refused. The pilot was offered $1,000, flew and crashed.
Guys, great show as usual. Is the crash of N831LC (1991), which killed 10 including most of Reba McIntire’s touring entourage, on your list of future “high profile” accidents on your list? The accident- as I recall- included poor information provided by the FSS to a flight crew unfamiliar with local terrain. Would be very interesting to get your take on the accident. Thanks. Love what you three are doing!
There was a flight crash in Orange County California going into John Wayne Airport the small-business get was turned in early to follow a 757 it ended up getting into wash flipping upside down 80 degrees into the ground school attended for Christmas vacation my friend took me to the crash site I took a bunch of pictures with me back Oklahoma to prepare for my next class I was going through CFI training you had one day to prepare as a teacher so I chose that plane crash thank you guys got detailed information on what had happened this is a crash that killed the owner of In-N-Out Burger thanks for all your work thank you for all your work
I was in a hurry, they got the story, I failed to mention , that crash it was determined that the wing tip vortices were so strong it was recommended to us Winslet, and to stay 7 mins or 7 miles if behind a 757
@@MsCellobassyou're a fool if you think being 500 lbs over gross, more passengers than seats, multi engine rating in a 337, couldn't even get insured and you're trying to tell me that's not criminal, if you think this is acceptable then you make me question your flying experience
In the military you have weather reporters for you, and plenty of mechanics that check the airplane BEFORE EACH FLIGHT. flight planners that calculate and plan the load for you before each flight. Crew Chiefs that help you load the airplane, gives you the weather, the flight plan, route notams, and the airport info and weight and balance. Also all flights are monitored by ATC, and you have a copilot even on small twins. Single-seat fighters mostly fly in pairs, or more, not alone. So basically you have 5-10 people helping you. Easier to do flights that way, unless in combat areas.
That is exactly how Aaliya’s plane went down. The pilot had argued to the crew that were either the entourage of her or the video crew ( she was on location for a music video) insisted that they would take the equipment and luggage with them. The pilot who was not certified to even fly gave in.
Keith Green was such a talented musician, played piano like nobody I’d ever heard. I loved his music when I was an evangelical Christian teenager. Truth be told, I am now 56, an atheist since the age of 45, and even though the lyrics don’t do much for me these days, I still listen to Keith every now and then because his musicianship was so good.
Well what can I say...BUT! Return to Jesus as quickly as you can.I cant imagine what has caused you to boast about turning atheist...Dangerous, dangerous to tempt God like that... May the Lord be merciful to you and call you back to a far deeper walk with Him. I pray it will happen soon.God be merciful and may find His love again...Im sure Keith would be praying for you in heaven to come back to Jesus..
Wow, i remember the day of the accident, i was listening to wmuz in Detroit and the plane crash was reported. He was a contemporary gospel recording artist.
I went to work in Bethel Alaska in the spring of 1984. Back then the Cessna 207 could be insured to carry 6 paying passenger plus pilot. I've had as many as 11 souls on my Cessna 207 legally. If you guys only knew what was really going on back then in Alaska.
Excellent discussion. Sorry to hear about the loss of institutional knowledge at the NTSB. This appears to be the course of things at the moment - appease the feelings first then worry about the job second. Keep up the great work.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Sharon and I will be discussing the pilot and his relationship with Last Days Ministries (on our staff) on our next podcast episode. The truth is, the pilot was a dear man -- under the influence of a very forceful 'cult personality' -- I will post the link when it is live. We both lived and worked at Last Days Ministries during this time.
I have loved Greg Feith since he first started appearing on the Discovery, and Learning channels in the early to mid 1990's. I believe he was the Lead investigator on the Value Jet 592 incident. Greg, do you still have your red and white Comanche? Great show guys, Please keep it up. Just subbed today.
The first airplane I ever flew in when I was in Cub Scouts was a Cessna 337 and I have loved those ugly damn things ever since. My dream plane has ben the 414 for what I find a great balance of speed, comfort, and decent fuel burn. I have had a stroke so I know I will never be able to get my Pilots license.
I used to work in Aircraft maintenance. I was fully aware that my actions meant that someone lived or died. I'm now a Weights Engineer why weights aircraft and calculate modifications. I still have that in my mind, will this design fail and kill people. Lastly, I have some flying experience and I know that behind the aft CG is a tombstone.
Roger Peterson, who was the pilot of the Buddy Holly Flight was a commercial pilot, but did not hold an instrument rating. He had failed his written the first time and re-took the test. The flight service called Dwyer flying service was not authorized operations in IMC. it was this accident that resulted in the rule change that you could not fly over 50 nautical miles as a commercial pilot for hire without an instrument rating.
These men provide some sobering information. I think part of the problem was that they wanted to quickly go up and see the property before this family went on their way [I believe the pilot was taking them on east]. Keith was an incredible influence on millions of people, but I can imagine he was spontaneous and this was a last-minute decision. It probably seemed like "not a big deal" to just stuff them all in. To hear that the pilot was not well-trained in weight and balance and never took the time to do some simple calculations just crushes my heart. His ineptness caused twelve to perish, and eight were just little kids. So sad.
Don’t fully blame the pilot. I am sure Keith Green sadly forced this flight or Keith could have done multiple flights with less passengers. Keith was known to not always show caution.
It was avoidable in every way, I soloed in 1980 and I remember that crash. It was a crash before it left the ground. His center of gravity was aft by so much. Way over gross. The way I herd it the pilot was pressured to take all those people. I could be wrong because that was here say.
@ gregrunyon2858 Yes, Sharon and l will be talking about this very thing on our next podcast episode. Sharon and I were at Last Days Ministries during this devastating crash -- and have started to tell our stories of Keith, Melody and what life was like at Last Days Ministries.
I asked before about whether the plane reportedly being fully fueled was a factor. I did some more research: - Aviation Fuel weighs around 6.5 lbs./gallon - Plane's fuel capacity was 206 gallons if what I found is correct. This means that a full tank added around 1,339 pounds. If the tank was 1/2 full that would have been around 670 pounds less. 670 pounds is a little over 1/2 of the estimated total of the passenger weights. Had the plane only had a 1/2 tank that might have made a difference. Any comments on this?
Putting in place processes to ensure that an organization continues to learn from the past, and keep improving, is one of the most difficult tasks known. We see it in government, private businesses, our families, and our society as a whole. In a way, it's like maintenance. You have to accept the reality that you will need to do "maintenance" on any system, so budget the time and money to keep things working correctly.
Excellent discussion. In your future shows don’t forget to mention those that were extremely experienced and made similar mistakes. Alaska, F14 demo pilot forgetting the gust lock…….etc. the point being is that there are many examples of extremely poor judgement and mistakes from new pilots to well experienced pilots.
This was a good, informative roundtable guys, but how about telling the story of the flight/crash before diving into the analysis? I'd like to know the background and details of what actually happened before we start solving the incident. Just a little feedback from your audience.
I am in NO WAY a pilot or aviation expert. However, upon hearing the words “weight and balance: not performed” at the 8:05 minute marker, this aircraft novice is cringing at the outcome of a plane carrying people AND fuel that was never properly calculated. A total of twelve people, four being adults, a pre-teen, and then seven non-seatbelt wearing children in a seven seat plane makes me wonder why the pilot allowed that many people to squeeze into that Cessna. Honestly and graphically, those small children had to have been tossed around that very small cabin. Wouldn’t that impact the weight and balance as well? Very sad. I was familiar with Keith Green and was deeply shaken at the time of the accident. And years later, I attended the same church his widow and surviving two daughters attended. This examination really brings the tragedy into perspective. Dear God, I am certain if that pilot and group survived, though deeply shaken, Don, the pilot, would never repeat those errors again. We must be thorough in implementing safety above all other distractions: i.e., emotions, personalities, tiredness, and especially “quick” trips. This quick trip was in fact quick, but also horrifically deadly. 😞
I'm glad there are still examples of detailed reports for future investigators to model their work after. I wonder if the "TLDR" culture is spreading into the work style of investigation.
At the very least, the NTSB should contract with universities and other academic institutions to put an army of aviation students to research the backlog cases. Even better, create profiles based on crew scenarios and aircraft characteristics that can be used to focus pilot and A&P training in the future.
Not much information about Keith Green's fatal accident. Some of the video time was spent shaking their heads and criticizing the pilot with the participants saying different versions of "I can't believe the/a pilot would do that". Much of the rest of the remaining time was spent criticizing the NTSB and comparing the way things were done (when they were more directly involved) as opposed to more recently. This video is really a critique on the NTSB; Keith Green's accident is only used to compare what these three believe is a representative of a good report compared to the poor reports the NTSB puts out now.
How much has the NTSB budget been cut...and cut...and cut? (Truthfully, I don't know.) At first, it becomes impossible to do everything well. Eventually, it becomes impossible to do ANYTHING well.
How much baggage was onboard? I figured the weight of the 4 adults and 8 children was between 1,100 and 1,200 lbs. The plane was equipped with a Robertson STOL kit. Temperature was 98 degrees max for that day.
The Aaliyah crash in 01 was also weight overloaded. I do believe private pilots can sometimes be pushed into unsafe flying from their famous passengers. Maybe the pilot on this one thought that since they were kids, maybe the weight wasn't too much, idk, but he definitely made a horrible judgement call. I won't ever fly. Too many stupid things can go wrong because of stupid people.
It would be helpful if folks did not refer to all non-airline flights as "private." "Private Pilot" is a type of pilot certificate and I assure you, the pilot flying Aaliyah was not a private pilot. Nor was this Aaliyah's "private" airplane. It was a charter flight and a commercial pilot. A different model plane had taken the band to the Bahamas, one with much more load carrying ability. The band was not able to distinguish the difference between the earlier plane and this one and demanded the "commercial pilot" take the same load back to FL. Why did the pilot comply? Because he had a sketchy background and if fired would likely not find another job. The operator was a skimpy outfit, that cut corners at every opportunity. This is the dynamic shoestring operators set up, pilots that will do anything to keep their job as they are easily pushed even if it means breaking rules. Believe it or not, after decades of poor oversight, the FAA is slowly squeezing out these type operators.
This knowledge drain is prevalent in so many industries. People change jobs, retire early, etc. So many in "management" fail to take into account intangibles like accumulated experience and the value of "tribal knowledge", but instead focus on what they can measure - the $, efficiency, etc. I feel it in the IT industry. People want ITIL certification and the latest courses over someone with decades of experience before the certifications even existed and can spot trouble before they even begin. Honestly, I think we are doomed.
We see the results of cockpit authority issues, like Asiana SF & others, the patriarchal intimidation culture between older Asian pilots and younger first officers. Now we need to add this dynamic to this KG accident. Although Keith was not a pilot he was in command of the contracts, equipment and decisions, just about total authority. Now some background. Just a few months before his crash I was a staff member for hosting his concert at a Christian youth event in DC. We had procured a large enough Church building for his popular venue which was not our own building. The event was so popular that the building filled up and kids overflowed sitting in the isles, clogging them. Seeing that the building capacity fire codes were violated, a fire Marshal arrived and we had to actually tell people to leave the building, we thought to get Keith assistance to come out and make an announcement to begin an orderly dispersal getting us back into fire code compliance or the owner of the building would be fined. When we approached Keith we were astonished. He said “expletive the Fire Marshal. I’m doing God’s work here. I’m not telling anyone they have to go home”. It was no conversation. It was loud and belligerent. My pastor then took him privately to discuss this and a few minutes later an announcement was made for those in the isle to leave and would allowed credit at the next concert. Imagine this pilot facing that belligerence and pressure. Coming from an aviation family, when I heard the details of his crash, and in keeping with witnessing his brash defiance of safety codes, I put it together. In this situation I likened this pilot to get the brunt of the cultural pressures we have seen Asian cockpit management where authority, in this case, the guy who pays everything, will attempt to get his way even verging on browbeating. If it weren’t for loss of life and character issues contributing to that, I would not bring up these contributing details.
This is the easy airplane to fly if you're A pro. If he was committed to the take off, stay at 25 feet, raise the gear. Get twenty extra knots then start to climb. Everyone would still be alive but he would still be a Moron. I love to keep green as a christian brother and musician.😮
Would have not having so much fuel have helped even with the imbalance? I thought I read the fuel,tanks were full which I doubt was necessary for a short flight like this.
They trusted that the “magic man in the sky” could overcome the science they don’t believe in. Honestly seemed like the beginnings of a cult out there, so maybe this was gods will.
@Spyke-lz2hl Sharon and I will discuss this crash in detail on our next podcast episode. We lived and worked at Last Days during this time -- and on this day -- and we have started to tell our stories of our time there and with Keith and Melody Green.
Can AI make these accidents less likely in the future? Clearly in 1982 AI was not available. But what if today all the parameters were entered into the AI 4 adults 8 children, 500 lbs over max, etc and the AI essentially "locks" the plane? Better yet, the AI "sees" the 4 adults, 8 kid and "knows" the plane is 500 lbs overweight. People (including pilots) can do stupid things, the flight physics on earth is fairly well known. It's difficult to overcome hubris, arrogance and "get there itis". I've watched these guys on TV series "Air Disasters" they are all great analysts and investigators.
This gives some information on Keith Green apparently pressuring the pilot to fly when he shouldn’t have: ruclips.net/video/ppC6FTUFOtk/видео.htmlsi=5dvJKMazZcI0tiho
It’s not “blaming God” for anything. God has a sovereign plan for all His children! God calls EACH of them into His presence at HIS appointed time. God’s Children understand this. Keith was called home EXACTLY when a sovereign loving GOD determined.
Keith was a known risk taker like passing cars when there was a yellow solid line. He presumed that God would always protect him. This time his risk taking caused his death as well as a number of others.
How many musicians have perished because clear protocols were ignored? People forget to respect nature's law and think they can win russian roulette. I hope people learn from this.
Factual information ....... anybody i have ever known, do not use their mother's name irreverently, but one of these men used the name ( of JESUS IRREVERENTLY) They said it's a family "show" . Let's learn to be "professional" as they want pilots to do.
@sevinadrew3958 - First learn to spell GREG! Second, why do you care if you are here about safety and knowledge from experts! Oh I know why I bet, you look worst. Such a dumb comment so go back living in your cave.
I was so stunned to see the name in the title of this video ... Keith Green's music & lyrics had a massive influence on my young life. I still play much of his piano pieces to this day, and I even played his composition, "The Lord is My Shepherd" for my audition when I applied to the Conservatorium of Music, ten years after Keith's death - and I aced it. The audition panel don't usually speak to applicants, but one of the Professors on the panel told me that she was very moved by my audition, and asked me who wrote the piece. I'm so glad to see that so many other people still remember Keith Green and his music, and to know that he had such an influence on so many others. His music lives on, but I was devastated when his plane crashed .. and until now I had no idea WHY his plane crashed. Thanks for doing this video.
3 men with experience and expertise - Thank God ! Do not shut - up ! Thanks fellas .
For those of us who have sought to improve our fearful flyer credentials over decades, you guys are a reassurance that there are competent and experienced professionals looking over the shoulders of those currently in charge of the NTSB and, to a lesser extent, the FAA. Safe flight boils down to the effective training, diligence and conscientiousness of every person in the industry. And knowing your team is there advocating for standards is a tremendous help.
Thank you gentlemen. Keith Green and his music significantly influenced me as a teenager and continues to do so as an old man. Such a tragic crash. Two of Keith’s children perished with him. Farther along, we will know all about it. Farther along, we will understand why. 😢
I heard Keith Green in junior high and have really started listening to him. I heard his song to his son, Josiah, that is so moving. I remember when he was in an accident. So many famous people die in these smaller planes. Kobe devastated my whole city of Los Angeles.
Back to my story, I heard this song today and wondered what happened to Josiah when his dad died and was devastated that he and another of Keith’s kids, age 3 and 2.
You all are amazing and I signed up for your channel. I still don’t think I’d get in a small plane unless one of you were the pilot.
I have so much respect for you Greg. You have been a favourite of mine for years. Loved your input and professionalism on Air Crash Investigation and of course your colourful ties. You really cared about victims their families and getting to the truth. Cheers from Australia.
Keith Green's music, book (No Compromise) & life has been a major inspiration to me for many years. The preventable accident at his headquarters was so sad. The NTSB report is impressive. I've felt the pressure of getting a well-known person where & when he needs to go. I was hired to fly a famous meteorologist from a small east Texas town to Dallas Love Field in a Piper Arrow. Short flight, beautiful day, but it was _very windy_ and he HAD to be back in time for a newscast. I was a brand new commercial/instrument pilot, still in school, and I'm _not comfortable_ with the very strong wind. BUT this is a Famous Meteorologist (I'm avoiding his name), who's also a pilot, (adding pressure to perform), and he HAS to be back. The flight was bumpy & I'm facing strong, gusty, variable winds at Love Field. I don't have much experience in the T-tail Arrow, and I'm super-nervous about nailing a good landing. It took me nearly half of the 7,752 ft long 31R to wrestle the Arrow onto the ground! I was being blown all over the place by strong winds & over-controlling trying to make it butter-smooth, which it wasn't. I'm sure my famous passenger was uncomfortable with my long & drawn-out effort, though we were joking about it during taxi. This might not have been a life-threatening situation, but it was a flight I took on with high pressure to get it done.
Know your airplane and consider the value of all the cargo that is boarding!
Ignore Physics and it will bite you in the behind every time. I was in Seminary when this happened. It was a great tragedy all around. Keith Green was just beginning to have the impact among young people. But he trusted someone who should not have been trusted to protect the safety of the passengers and to attempt to fly a plane that would not support the load. I am an aviation enthusiast but not a pilot myself. Age is a factor and I just don't have the financial means to make it a reality.
What? I thought all military pilots were God's gift to aviation? He had no idea how to conduct a part 91 GA flight and had no experience in that model plane. I mean, none. This is a recipe for disaster, which is what we got.
@@buckmurdock2500 In the military you have weather reporters for you, and plenty of mechanics that check the airplane BEFORE EACH FLIGHT. flight planners that calculate and plan the load for you before each flight. Crew Chiefs that help you load the airplane, gives you the weather, the flight plane, the airport info and weight and balance, and all flights are monitored by ATC, and you have a copilot even on small twins. Single-seat fighters mostly fly in pairs, not alone. So basically you have 5-10 people helping you. Easier to do flights that way, unless in combat areas.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350what this pilot needed was the supervision, not the help, to make him do what he knew full well was required.
You're being too hard on the pilot. Keith was a strong personality and very persuasive. And people loved to please him.
Yes, the pilot shouldn't have gone up, but it's highly likely to not be about Keith trusting the pilot, but far more likely that everyone was trusting Keith, and shouldn't have. The pilot should have said no but probably struggled to say no to Keith.
I think it was a very complicated situation that is difficult to judge fairly.
@@servantofjesuschrist-tb8ns Well a lot of people who are a lot wiser about flying airplanes than I would disagree. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Great show! I am a retired firefighter (captain) and would love to support in some capacity investigating aircraft incidents-crashes! NTSB has become nothing more than a bureaucratic machine that doesn't want outside help and in no hurry to complete a investigation. The reason they (NTSB) can't tell us the reason (root-cause) is because they have not been taught or have the knowledge or care to really figure out the causation of crashes!
I loved Keith Green and his ministry, and still look for his music online. I appreciate continued followup on the fatal accident, and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Keith and his widow Melody would appreciate the truth you are uncovering. Thank you for your continued good service.
Hey fellas, I just found your channel! After watching this episode, I am DEFINITELY subscribing and "ringing the bell." Over the coming weeks, I will be doing a deep dive on your previous episodes as my time permits! Thank you for sharing this info with us! Be safe, and again, thank you for your time and efforts to bring this content to us !!!
Thank you for providing your professional and thorough assessments. I appreciate your knowledge and I just subscribed.
Excellent program. Great job by all!
Saw this video in my feed, figured I'd give it a look. Recognized one or two of the names of the detectives from maybe one too many Mayday episodes, didn't even need to wait for the video to finish before diving for the subscribe button.
Thanks for great info.
My family always had a soft spot for Keith because in 1978 my father died in a helicopter crash and they all loved Keith's music and message.
I was born 3 months after my father's crash and have always wanted to know the details, but no one will share them with me ...even 45 years later . Do you research helicopter accidents?
Ruth, if you post some details of the crash, like date and location, the internet sleuths will find out everything that's available in a few hours.
🤍🕊️🕯️
I remember when the plane went down. After watching the video and reading the comments it's a double tragedy.
I remember another artist who insisted that some extra things be put on a plane and the pilot refused. The pilot was offered $1,000, flew and crashed.
Guys, great show as usual. Is the crash of N831LC (1991), which killed 10 including most of Reba McIntire’s touring entourage, on your list of future “high profile” accidents on your list? The accident- as I recall- included poor information provided by the FSS to a flight crew unfamiliar with local terrain. Would be very interesting to get your take on the accident. Thanks. Love what you three are doing!
That was a horrific accident.
There was a flight crash in Orange County California going into John Wayne Airport the small-business get was turned in early to follow a 757 it ended up getting into wash flipping upside down 80 degrees into the ground school attended for Christmas vacation my friend took me to the crash site I took a bunch of pictures with me back Oklahoma to prepare for my next class I was going through CFI training you had one day to prepare as a teacher so I chose that plane crash thank you guys got detailed information on what had happened this is a crash that killed the owner of In-N-Out Burger thanks for all your work thank you for all your work
Have you considered using punctuation to make your message understandable?
I was in a hurry, they got the story, I failed to mention , that crash it was determined that the wing tip vortices were so strong it was recommended to us Winslet, and to stay 7 mins or 7 miles if behind a 757
This is beyond a tragic accident.... This is criminal
?? What was criminal?? Don Burmeister made a huge mistake- he was NOT being wreckless.
No body in the plane had a deathwish nor were they being intentionally careless.
@@MsCellobassyou're a fool if you think being 500 lbs over gross, more passengers than seats, multi engine rating in a 337, couldn't even get insured and you're trying to tell me that's not criminal, if you think this is acceptable then you make me question your flying experience
In the military you have weather reporters for you, and plenty of mechanics that check the airplane BEFORE EACH FLIGHT. flight planners that calculate and plan the load for you before each flight. Crew Chiefs that help you load the airplane, gives you the weather, the flight plan, route notams, and the airport info and weight and balance. Also all flights are monitored by ATC, and you have a copilot even on small twins. Single-seat fighters mostly fly in pairs, or more, not alone. So basically you have 5-10 people helping you. Easier to do flights that way, unless in combat areas.
That is exactly how Aaliya’s plane went down. The pilot had argued to the crew that were either the entourage of her or the video crew ( she was on location for a music video) insisted that they would take the equipment and luggage with them. The pilot who was not certified to even fly gave in.
Keith Green was such a talented musician, played piano like nobody I’d ever heard. I loved his music when I was an evangelical Christian teenager. Truth be told, I am now 56, an atheist since the age of 45, and even though the lyrics don’t do much for me these days, I still listen to Keith every now and then because his musicianship was so good.
obviously, the lord wasnt protecting him
@@jerryeinstandig7996 Yeah, placing your life in the hands of a mythical being doesn’t usually turn out very well.
@@TommyFlanagan666 L
@@jerdptro L, bro. Forever L. 🤜🏼🤛🏼
Well what can I say...BUT! Return to Jesus as quickly as you can.I cant imagine what has caused you to boast about turning atheist...Dangerous, dangerous to tempt God like that...
May the Lord be merciful to you and call you back to a far deeper walk with Him.
I pray it will happen soon.God be merciful and may find His love again...Im sure Keith would be praying for you in heaven to come back to Jesus..
Wow ! Well done men - keep up the good work . Thanks .
Thank you! If you haven’t already, please subscribe.
Wow, i remember the day of the accident, i was listening to wmuz in Detroit and the plane crash was reported. He was a contemporary gospel recording artist.
I went to work in Bethel Alaska in the spring of 1984. Back then the Cessna 207 could be insured to carry 6 paying passenger plus pilot. I've had as many as 11 souls on my Cessna 207 legally. If you guys only knew what was really going on back then in Alaska.
Excellent discussion. Sorry to hear about the loss of institutional knowledge at the NTSB. This appears to be the course of things at the moment - appease the feelings first then worry about the job second. Keep up the great work.
We make mistakes on a daily basis. We are human. But making a mistake on an airplane can have fatal results. Preplanning is always a must.
That was not ONE MISTAKE. He made about 7 big mistakes. That guy was a crook.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Sharon and I will be discussing the pilot and his relationship with Last Days Ministries (on our staff) on our next podcast episode. The truth is, the pilot was a dear man -- under the influence of a very forceful 'cult personality' -- I will post the link when it is live. We both lived and worked at Last Days Ministries during this time.
I have loved Greg Feith since he first started appearing on the Discovery, and Learning channels in the early to mid 1990's. I believe he was the Lead investigator on the Value Jet 592 incident. Greg, do you still have your red and white Comanche? Great show guys, Please keep it up. Just subbed today.
The first airplane I ever flew in when I was in Cub Scouts was a Cessna 337 and I have loved those ugly damn things ever since. My dream plane has ben the 414 for what I find a great balance of speed, comfort, and decent fuel burn. I have had a stroke so I know I will never be able to get my Pilots license.
I used to work in Aircraft maintenance. I was fully aware that my actions meant that someone lived or died. I'm now a Weights Engineer why weights aircraft and calculate modifications. I still have that in my mind, will this design fail and kill people. Lastly, I have some flying experience and I know that behind the aft CG is a tombstone.
Roger Peterson, who was the pilot of the Buddy Holly Flight was a commercial pilot, but did not hold an instrument rating. He had failed his written the first time and re-took the test. The flight service called Dwyer flying service was not authorized operations in IMC. it was this accident that resulted in the rule change that you could not fly over 50 nautical miles as a commercial pilot for hire without an instrument rating.
Did you notice Feith could name The Big Bopper and Richie Valens but not Buddy Holly?🤭
These men provide some sobering information. I think part of the problem was that they wanted to quickly go up and see the property before this family went on their way [I believe the pilot was taking them on east]. Keith was an incredible influence on millions of people, but I can imagine he was spontaneous and this was a last-minute decision. It probably seemed like "not a big deal" to just stuff them all in. To hear that the pilot was not well-trained in weight and balance and never took the time to do some simple calculations just crushes my heart. His ineptness caused twelve to perish, and eight were just little kids. So sad.
Don’t fully blame the pilot. I am sure Keith Green sadly forced this flight or Keith could have done multiple flights with less passengers. Keith was known to not always show caution.
People had a hard time saying no to Keith
You guys have great credentials.
It was avoidable in every way, I soloed in 1980 and I remember that crash. It was a crash before it left the ground. His center of gravity was aft by so much. Way over gross. The way I herd it the pilot was pressured to take all those people. I could be wrong because that was here say.
@ gregrunyon2858 Yes, Sharon and l will be talking about this very thing on our next podcast episode. Sharon and I were at Last Days Ministries during this devastating crash -- and have started to tell our stories of Keith, Melody and what life was like at Last Days Ministries.
I asked before about whether the plane reportedly being fully fueled was a factor. I did some more research:
- Aviation Fuel weighs around 6.5 lbs./gallon
- Plane's fuel capacity was 206 gallons if what I found is correct.
This means that a full tank added around 1,339 pounds.
If the tank was 1/2 full that would have been around 670 pounds less.
670 pounds is a little over 1/2 of the estimated total of the passenger weights. Had the plane only had a 1/2 tank that might have made a difference.
Any comments on this?
Putting in place processes to ensure that an organization continues to learn from the past, and keep improving, is one of the most difficult tasks known. We see it in government, private businesses, our families, and our society as a whole. In a way, it's like maintenance. You have to accept the reality that you will need to do "maintenance" on any system, so budget the time and money to keep things working correctly.
“If there’s a rock and roll heaven,You know they got a hell of a band”…….The Righteous Brothers.
Excellent discussion. In your future shows don’t forget to mention those that were extremely experienced and made similar mistakes. Alaska, F14 demo pilot forgetting the gust lock…….etc. the point being is that there are many examples of extremely poor judgement and mistakes from new pilots to well experienced pilots.
He probably flew a sky master in Vietnam they used tnem a ton
And if safety isn’t enhanced, how does the board justify its current existence? I’m with you fellas, for what it’s worth 👍
good work
More Greg please.
This was a good, informative roundtable guys, but how about telling the story of the flight/crash before diving into the analysis? I'd like to know the background and details of what actually happened before we start solving the incident. Just a little feedback from your audience.
I am in NO WAY a pilot or aviation expert. However, upon hearing the words “weight and balance: not performed” at the 8:05 minute marker, this aircraft novice is cringing at the outcome of a plane carrying people AND fuel that was never properly calculated.
A total of twelve people, four being adults, a pre-teen, and then seven non-seatbelt wearing children in a seven seat plane makes me wonder why the pilot allowed that many people to squeeze into that Cessna. Honestly and graphically, those small children had to have been tossed around that very small cabin. Wouldn’t that impact the weight and balance as well?
Very sad.
I was familiar with Keith Green and was deeply shaken at the time of the accident. And years later, I attended the same church his widow and surviving two daughters attended. This examination really brings the tragedy into perspective.
Dear God, I am certain if that pilot and group survived, though deeply shaken, Don, the pilot, would never repeat those errors again. We must be thorough in implementing safety above all other distractions: i.e., emotions, personalities, tiredness, and especially “quick” trips. This quick trip was in fact quick, but also horrifically deadly. 😞
Maybe Don felt pressured by Keith, have you considered that?
As accident investigators, do you agree with Dan Gryder's AQP recommendations for general aviation pilots?
can't have AQP in GA. There is no infrastructure for it.
This is the first time I’ve ever seen Keith not wearing a tie and suspenders lol.
I'm glad there are still examples of detailed reports for future investigators to model their work after. I wonder if the "TLDR" culture is spreading into the work style of investigation.
TLDR ? I am not familiar - Maybe I am just a dumb guy …. Don’t think so But ?
@@bobwilson758 Too Long Didn't Read. Yes, I had to Google it. Ironic that there's an acronym for it.
At the very least, the NTSB should contract with universities and other academic institutions to put an army of aviation students to research the backlog cases. Even better, create profiles based on crew scenarios and aircraft characteristics that can be used to focus pilot and A&P training in the future.
Not much information about Keith Green's fatal accident. Some of the video time was spent shaking their heads and criticizing the pilot with the participants saying different versions of "I can't believe the/a pilot would do that". Much of the rest of the remaining time was spent criticizing the NTSB and comparing the way things were done (when they were more directly involved) as opposed to more recently. This video is really a critique on the NTSB; Keith Green's accident is only used to compare what these three believe is a representative of a good report compared to the poor reports the NTSB puts out now.
How much has the NTSB budget been cut...and cut...and cut? (Truthfully, I don't know.) At first, it becomes impossible to do everything well. Eventually, it becomes impossible to do ANYTHING well.
How much baggage was onboard?
I figured the weight of the 4 adults and 8 children was between 1,100 and 1,200 lbs.
The plane was equipped with a Robertson STOL kit.
Temperature was 98 degrees max for that day.
Aproximate passenger weights
Keith 180lbs.
Don 180
Mr Smalley 250
Mrs Smalley 130
Children
12 yo 100
2) 7yo 150
2) 4yo 80
2) 3yo 60
2 yo 30
3500 foot runway.
1500 foot field before trees.
lots of talk about how things were better in your day, but little about the accident.
Greg, you need better lighting. You've got a V-shadow on your face, and it's dark under that hat brim.
The Aaliyah crash in 01 was also weight overloaded. I do believe private pilots can sometimes be pushed into unsafe flying from their famous passengers. Maybe the pilot on this one thought that since they were kids, maybe the weight wasn't too much, idk, but he definitely made a horrible judgement call. I won't ever fly. Too many stupid things can go wrong because of stupid people.
It would be helpful if folks did not refer to all non-airline flights as "private."
"Private Pilot" is a type of pilot certificate and I assure you, the pilot flying Aaliyah was not a private pilot. Nor was this Aaliyah's "private" airplane. It was a charter flight and a commercial pilot.
A different model plane had taken the band to the Bahamas, one with much more load carrying ability. The band was not able to distinguish the difference between the earlier plane and this one and demanded the "commercial pilot" take the same load back to FL.
Why did the pilot comply? Because he had a sketchy background and if fired would likely not find another job. The operator was a skimpy outfit, that cut corners at every opportunity. This is the dynamic shoestring operators set up, pilots that will do anything to keep their job as they are easily pushed even if it means breaking rules. Believe it or not, after decades of poor oversight, the FAA is slowly squeezing out these type operators.
@@buckmurdock2500 Morales was high on Cocaine when he flew the Twin Engine Cessna 402B.
OceanGate needed (past tense) your expertise, they should have fitted a Black Box ULB on their shoestring and chewing gum coke can
would that have saved them?
This knowledge drain is prevalent in so many industries. People change jobs, retire early, etc. So many in "management" fail to take into account intangibles like accumulated experience and the value of "tribal knowledge", but instead focus on what they can measure - the $, efficiency, etc. I feel it in the IT industry. People want ITIL certification and the latest courses over someone with decades of experience before the certifications even existed and can spot trouble before they even begin.
Honestly, I think we are doomed.
We see the results of cockpit authority issues, like Asiana SF & others, the patriarchal intimidation culture between older Asian pilots and younger first officers. Now we need to add this dynamic to this KG accident. Although Keith was not a pilot he was in command of the contracts, equipment and decisions, just about total authority.
Now some background.
Just a few months before his crash I was a staff member for hosting his concert at a Christian youth event in DC. We had procured a large enough Church building for his popular venue which was not our own building. The event was so popular that the building filled up and kids overflowed sitting in the isles, clogging them. Seeing that the building capacity fire codes were violated, a fire Marshal arrived and we had to actually tell people to leave the building, we thought to get Keith assistance to come out and make an announcement to begin an orderly dispersal getting us back into fire code compliance or the owner of the building would be fined.
When we approached Keith we were astonished. He said “expletive the Fire Marshal. I’m doing God’s work here. I’m not telling anyone they have to go home”. It was no conversation. It was loud and belligerent. My pastor then took him privately to discuss this and a few minutes later an announcement was made for those in the isle to leave and would allowed credit at the next concert.
Imagine this pilot facing that belligerence and pressure. Coming from an aviation family, when I heard the details of his crash, and in keeping with witnessing his brash defiance of safety codes, I put it together.
In this situation I likened this pilot to get the brunt of the cultural pressures we have seen Asian cockpit management where authority, in this case, the guy who pays everything, will attempt to get his way even verging on browbeating. If it weren’t for loss of life and character issues contributing to that, I would not bring up these contributing details.
This is the easy airplane to fly if you're A pro. If he was committed to the take off, stay at 25 feet, raise the gear. Get twenty extra knots then start to climb. Everyone would still be alive but he would still be a Moron. I love to keep green as a christian brother and musician.😮
Would have not having so much fuel have helped even with the imbalance? I thought I read the fuel,tanks were full which I doubt was necessary for a short flight like this.
Even by common sense, i would know not to load a plane like that.
What about flight 409 United Airlines?That crashed into the mountains on its way out to the salt lake cin the moon mid fifties
How did he avoid a tail-strike if the plane auto-rotated? (I'm not a pilot or even a very serious air buff, but...)
They trusted that the “magic man in the sky” could overcome the science they don’t believe in. Honestly seemed like the beginnings of a cult out there, so maybe this was gods will.
@Spyke-lz2hl Sharon and I will discuss this crash in detail on our next podcast episode. We lived and worked at Last Days during this time -- and on this day -- and we have started to tell our stories of our time there and with Keith and Melody Green.
@@TraceySharon-eo3pv Oh? I’m interested to hear what it was like.
N9352V feb 1973
The NTSB is probably DEI friendly.
Can AI make these accidents less likely in the future? Clearly in 1982 AI was not available. But what if today all the parameters were entered into the AI 4 adults 8 children, 500 lbs over max, etc and the AI essentially "locks" the plane? Better yet, the AI "sees" the 4 adults, 8 kid and "knows" the plane is 500 lbs overweight. People (including pilots) can do stupid things, the flight physics on earth is fairly well known. It's difficult to overcome hubris, arrogance and "get there itis".
I've watched these guys on TV series "Air Disasters" they are all great analysts and investigators.
This gives some information on Keith Green apparently pressuring the pilot to fly when he shouldn’t have:
ruclips.net/video/ppC6FTUFOtk/видео.htmlsi=5dvJKMazZcI0tiho
God wanted Keith Greens’soul in heaven. Keiths’ sitting on the left hand of God. Keiths’ passing was part of Gods’ plan.
Don't blame God for this.
It’s not “blaming God” for anything. God has a sovereign plan for all His children! God calls EACH of them into His presence at HIS appointed time. God’s Children understand this. Keith was called home EXACTLY when a sovereign loving GOD determined.
Keith was a known risk taker like passing cars when there was a yellow solid line. He presumed that God would always protect him. This time his risk taking caused his death as well as a number of others.
Jesus Commands Us To Go, one of his very popular songs, does not apply to getting into a plane with an unqualified pilot.
Or Keith forcing this.
Or a pilot who was bullied into submission
How many musicians have perished because clear protocols were ignored? People forget to respect nature's law and think they can win russian roulette. I hope people learn from this.
This is ALL total verbal garbage, quite a lot and only just fits in my trash can!
Factual information .......
anybody i have ever known, do not use their mother's name irreverently, but one of these men used the name ( of JESUS IRREVERENTLY)
They said it's a family "show" .
Let's learn to be "professional"
as they want pilots to do.
The laws of physics are self enforced. If you want to know what God's law looks like, there it is.
Gregg think about using a little makeup!
@sevinadrew3958 - First learn to spell GREG! Second, why do you care if you are here about safety and knowledge from experts! Oh I know why I bet, you look worst. Such a dumb comment so go back living in your cave.
You fellas have great subject matter but please, less waffle. Cheers
Even by common sense, i would know not to load a plane like that.