Yes Dave. This is a good one indeed. Please don’t forget that your objectivity is as subjective as anybody else’s but we thank you for your passion and your idea false or right that you can have facts in music. For one thing you are definitely well read if you may allow a compliment and we thank you for your suggestions and for taking the time to dig up things that, for one or other reason we wouldn’t dig up, and that said this sounds like a fabulous recording, I didn’t know it’s out and I’m going to run and get it! Thank you
I'm so delighted you chose this recording! I bought it over a year ago, when it became available in the UK, just for Jessye Norman. In fact it was Oct 2021! I have the Edinburgh festival DVD from the 80s where she sings the Mezzo role. I was dying to hear her take the soprano part and this speaks to her fabulous range when she was in her prime. The quartet on the whole are fantastic and Muti's conducting is thrilling!
@@ianng9915 Not Serafin. His recording had wonderful voices, but I don't think the orchestral playing, the tempos, the excitement, came up to it. And bear in mind that his was the first Requiem I ever heard. Usually early acquaintance leads to affection, but in Serafin's case it led me to understanding how much better the likes of Giulini, Fricsay and Toscanini were.
Dear David. Many thanks for your latest video. I can see how this release could well end up being one of the reference recordings, if not the reference recording of the Verdi Requiem. Like you said, there isn't a weak link with the soloists. A year or two ago, I bought Muti's Warner box set after viewing your mostly positive review on its release, so thanks for that as well. As an aside, I spent the day shelving up the last two year's cd purchases after watching you painstakingly organising your overflow room. Believe me it's so much more fun watching you do that and hearing your remarks on each recording than doing it myself!
This, in fact, may be the recording of a truly reference performance but it is NOT readily available on any of the streaming services (which is a HUGE negative) and it is not easy to obtain the physical CD. So, as you were quick to point out, its availability is a real problem to its becoming a new reference recording.
Speaking of the availability problem as relates to potential consensus building: this recording is not available on any streaming services. I got the CD when I first heard the reviews, and agree with everything said here, but it’s surprising to me that this wouldn’t be more widely available.
What an excellent idea for a series, Dave. Time and again I’m struck by some past reference recording (of whatever genre) simply being obviously outclassed by something more recent to the point where going with the 1960s-80s consensus might be a mistake. Things like the Beaux Arts Schubert or Ravel trios or Giulini’s (again) Don Giovanni. Only trouble is, and I’m fascinated by consensus formation too, whether we can identify new references and whether we should (I’m rather enjoying the proliferation of excellent new versions of things since the supposed crisis in the industry in the late 90s!) I’m thinking of the expression “postwar consensus” that was used in a general way in the wealthier countries, and which is no longer with us. Maybe this applied to consensus formation around “ reference recordings” too - I’m thinking of your Dvorak 9 video also here.
This is indeed a magnificent recording, warmer and more lyrical than I had feared. It passes at least one test for a reference recording, namely that anyone who only wanted a single recording of the Verdi Requiem would be thoroughly well-served by it. Alas, I fear a 40-year old radio recording on a small label, involving variously retired and deceased soloists, is unlikely to attain the notoriety it deserves. It will be more of a connoisseur's choice. I suspect Pappano's acclaimed Warner performance with its fine soloists and status as one of the Last Great Studio Recordings, will become the new gold standard for the critic and general listener.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Touché!!! Lol indeed! I never “got” Frittoli. I heard her Desdemona at La Scala (with Domingo and Muti)…meh. And Danielia Dessi? And yet Muti kept casting her during his tenure. Fiordiligi, Gilda etc. Those gossipy “vedove di Callas” maintained she and Muti were having an affair. WHO CARES? When i go to La Scala I expect more than a 2nd rate “comprimaria”. Toscanini conducted the premiere of Turandot there for heaven’s sake. I agree she is shocking on that CSO Requiem.
Back in 1964, the Philadelphia Orchestra recorded the Verdi Requiem with Ormandy conducting and Amara, Forester, Tucker and London as soloists. It's the definitive interpretation in my book.
Very interesting post. But one question comes to mind: Is availability really still a problem in the age of the Internet? Everything will remain available online forever. Or do you see permanent availability as a palpable product (CD, Vinyl) as independent criterion?
This is off topic for Requirm, but about “new” references. I’ve seen Manfred Honeck’s Titan spoken of on boards as deserving of being a new reference recording. Dave do you agree? Or our group do you agree?
Are you able to offer affiliate links to discs mentioned? Inane no idea how that works, but have searched for and a bought quite a lot of recordings based on your recommendations. If we could do something, however small to generate revenue, it would seemingly be no issue. Ignore, if this has been discussed and/ or too much hassle.
Dave, I'm curious if David Oistrakh and Franz Konwitschny with the Dresdener Staatskapelle, a mono Deutsche Grammophon recording from 1954, is still the reference for the Brahms and Tchaikovsky violin concertos? Or are there new reference recordings? When I started collecting CDs in the eighties, I was really amazed that this was the recording to go for. Thank you Dave for your answer.
But if Oistrakh and Klemperer (1960) or Szell (1969) is the reference recording for the Brahms violin concerto than this recording (1954) could be the predecessor of the reference recording: a recording that is important for the reference recording.
Spelling. When the first Shostakovich symphonies came out in the West in the 1930s (thanks to Stokowski) this is how they spelled his name: SZOSTAKOWICZ. Was RCA trying to disguise that he was of them there Bolsheviks and that he was really Polish?
My first thought when it comes to new reference recordings is Igor Levit’s complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas. His attention to detail of the score while having clarity of sound and sonority, even in the bits where he chooses to be more brazen is truly remarkable. Do you think this cycle has been in circulation and ingrained into the discography long enough to be considered a reference?
Well, OK, but as we’re dealing with performances here, *not* having “reference recordings” might be a liberating thing. To say that recording X is the Truth is really rather silly (I don’t think this is what Dave is saying at all). I find easy slashing away at “postmodernism “ troubling, as in even the most analytical areas of philosophy nobody has ever firmly established what the conditions for a True Statement are. I wish it weren’t so, but it is.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Yes Dave. This is a good one indeed. Please don’t forget that your objectivity is as subjective as anybody else’s but we thank you for your passion and your idea false or right that you can have facts in music.
For one thing you are definitely well read if you may allow a compliment and we thank you for your suggestions and for taking the time to dig up things that, for one or other reason we wouldn’t dig up, and that said this sounds like a fabulous recording, I didn’t know it’s out and I’m going to run and get it! Thank you
Thank you, but you have it backwards. My subjectivity is totally objective. That's what makes me a critic.
I'm so delighted you chose this recording! I bought it over a year ago, when it became available in the UK, just for Jessye Norman. In fact it was Oct 2021! I have the Edinburgh festival DVD from the 80s where she sings the Mezzo role. I was dying to hear her take the soprano part and this speaks to her fabulous range when she was in her prime. The quartet on the whole are fantastic and Muti's conducting is thrilling!
How about Old Reference Recordings? Just wondering. Toscanini's 1940 Verdi Requiem perhaps?
It was the first recording mentioned by DH in his initial Verdi Requiem reference recording video.
Perhaps many others, Serafin 41, De Sabata etc😊
@@ianng9915 Not Serafin. His recording had wonderful voices, but I don't think the orchestral playing, the tempos, the excitement, came up to it. And bear in mind that his was the first Requiem I ever heard. Usually early acquaintance leads to affection, but in Serafin's case it led me to understanding how much better the likes of Giulini, Fricsay and Toscanini were.
Dear David. Many thanks for your latest video. I can see how this release could well end up being one of the reference recordings, if not the reference recording of the Verdi Requiem. Like you said, there isn't a weak link with the soloists. A year or two ago, I bought Muti's Warner box set after viewing your mostly positive review on its release, so thanks for that as well.
As an aside, I spent the day shelving up the last two year's cd purchases after watching you painstakingly organising your overflow room. Believe me it's so much more fun watching you do that and hearing your remarks on each recording than doing it myself!
Looking forward to this! It's a dream cast, yes. And Jessye Norman sang the Requiem also for Abbado, but the mezzo part.
My favourite part of the Verdi Requiem is the Santus with the brilliant trumpets intro and beautiful choral voices
I hope you mean Sanctus
This, in fact, may be the recording of a truly reference performance but it is NOT readily available on any of the streaming services (which is a HUGE negative) and it is not easy to obtain the physical CD. So, as you were quick to point out, its availability is a real problem to its becoming a new reference recording.
Presto has it for streaming
YES; this is indeed the new reference recording!!
Speaking of the availability problem as relates to potential consensus building: this recording is not available on any streaming services. I got the CD when I first heard the reviews, and agree with everything said here, but it’s surprising to me that this wouldn’t be more widely available.
Presto has it.
For me hands down the greatest performance recorded of the Verdi Requiem. Jessye Norman is a goddess in the soprano role.
Oh dear, not that goddess stuff again!
What an excellent idea for a series, Dave. Time and again I’m struck by some past reference recording (of whatever genre) simply being obviously outclassed by something more recent to the point where going with the 1960s-80s consensus might be a mistake. Things like the Beaux Arts Schubert or Ravel trios or Giulini’s (again) Don Giovanni. Only trouble is, and I’m fascinated by consensus formation too, whether we can identify new references and whether we should (I’m rather enjoying the proliferation of excellent new versions of things since the supposed crisis in the industry in the late 90s!) I’m thinking of the expression “postwar consensus” that was used in a general way in the wealthier countries, and which is no longer with us. Maybe this applied to consensus formation around “ reference recordings” too - I’m thinking of your Dvorak 9 video also here.
This is indeed a magnificent recording, warmer and more lyrical than I had feared. It passes at least one test for a reference recording, namely that anyone who only wanted a single recording of the Verdi Requiem would be thoroughly well-served by it. Alas, I fear a 40-year old radio recording on a small label, involving variously retired and deceased soloists, is unlikely to attain the notoriety it deserves. It will be more of a connoisseur's choice. I suspect Pappano's acclaimed Warner performance with its fine soloists and status as one of the Last Great Studio Recordings, will become the new gold standard for the critic and general listener.
Every bit as FANTASTIC as Robert Levine wrote at Classics Today. Sublime!! It was Barbara Frittoli, not Dessi in the CSO live recording.
Well said, except that if you've seen one Barbara, you've seen 'em all.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Touché!!! Lol indeed! I never “got” Frittoli. I heard her Desdemona at La Scala (with Domingo and Muti)…meh. And Danielia Dessi? And yet Muti kept casting her during his tenure. Fiordiligi, Gilda etc. Those gossipy “vedove di Callas” maintained she and Muti were having an affair. WHO CARES? When i go to La Scala I expect more than a 2nd rate “comprimaria”. Toscanini conducted the premiere of Turandot there for heaven’s sake. I agree she is shocking on that CSO Requiem.
Maestro Muti is returning to Philadelphia to perform the Verdi Requiem this coming October. Looking forward to it.
Back in 1964, the Philadelphia Orchestra recorded the Verdi Requiem with Ormandy conducting and Amara, Forester, Tucker and London as soloists. It's the definitive interpretation in my book.
Very interesting post. But one question comes to mind: Is availability really still a problem in the age of the Internet? Everything will remain available online forever. Or do you see permanent availability as a palpable product (CD, Vinyl) as independent criterion?
No, but it's not true that everything will remain available. It should, but it doesn't really work that way--at least not yet.
Ah yes I have that one, I love it
This is off topic for Requirm, but about “new” references. I’ve seen Manfred Honeck’s Titan spoken of on boards as deserving of being a new reference recording. Dave do you agree? Or our group do you agree?
Are you able to offer affiliate links to discs mentioned? Inane no idea how that works, but have searched for and a bought quite a lot of recordings based on your recommendations. If we could do something, however small to generate revenue, it would seemingly be no issue. Ignore, if this has been discussed and/ or too much hassle.
I have no way to do that, but I appreciate the thought.
This was issued in 2021, so a consensus ought to be possible!
Dave, I'm curious if David Oistrakh and Franz Konwitschny with the Dresdener Staatskapelle, a mono Deutsche Grammophon recording from 1954, is still the reference for the Brahms and Tchaikovsky violin concertos? Or are there new reference recordings? When I started collecting CDs in the eighties, I was really amazed that this was the recording to go for. Thank you Dave for your answer.
It never was a reference recording for either work.
But if Oistrakh and Klemperer (1960) or Szell (1969) is the reference recording for the Brahms violin concerto than this recording (1954) could be the predecessor of the reference recording: a recording that is important for the reference recording.
I'm looking forward towards the references Dave! Still a great East German recording.
Spelling. When the first Shostakovich symphonies came out in the West in the 1930s (thanks to Stokowski) this is how they spelled his name: SZOSTAKOWICZ.
Was RCA trying to disguise that he was of them there Bolsheviks and that he was really Polish?
My first thought when it comes to new reference recordings is Igor Levit’s complete Beethoven Piano Sonatas. His attention to detail of the score while having clarity of sound and sonority, even in the bits where he chooses to be more brazen is truly remarkable. Do you think this cycle has been in circulation and ingrained into the discography long enough to be considered a reference?
No.
"Objective reality"??? Dave, you are wonderful. You are a lone warrior against the decaying stench of post-modernism / post-truth.
Well, OK, but as we’re dealing with performances here, *not* having “reference recordings” might be a liberating thing. To say that recording X is the Truth is really rather silly (I don’t think this is what Dave is saying at all). I find easy slashing away at “postmodernism “ troubling, as in even the most analytical areas of philosophy nobody has ever firmly established what the conditions for a True Statement are. I wish it weren’t so, but it is.