what a great break down and study,especially for those of us not well versed in horse stuff. love it. it very much gives words to the 'gut feeling' i had looking at both horses.
Caroline... I found this Very helpful... as a self-studier of Dressage horses - I agree with you in regards to the saddle fitment of the lower score horse, but I suspect that issue is because the lower score rider appears to me to be just a tad bit too big for the horse. The horse is not muscled up, but even so, as the lower score rider signals for impulsion via pelvic motion, his mass ( force x weight) is actually forward of the Horses Centre of Gravity (hence adding weight to the horses front and reducing its impulsion). This incorrect rider position ( ie shift forward of the horses COG) also results in the rider's hands being lower - as the reins are closer to horizontal there is more direct force pulling the bit rearwards ( hence pulling the neck over bent). If you watch where the lower score rider's hands are - they are almost always at the level of the saddle's pommel, by comparison look at where Collette's hands are - they are above the pommel and higher ( and notably more actively giving length when required and therefore applying lesser direct rearwards contact force) - the angle of the reins show that Collette's contact is softer ( ie not as much horizontal rearwards force). So I think what is happening with the lower score rider is that his incorrect position is causing his contact to be felt much stronger by the younger horse. This stronger contact is something that horse would appear to have experienced for some time, hence why it is behind the vertical, hollow backed, not extending and lacking power/ Impulsion). Very interesting - I known for dressage the actual judges scores card are available via a subscription through the FEI website - not sure if the eventing dressage score cards are available.
Very good analysis Caroline.Thank you. Overall you can see the vast difference between the top horse and the bottom horse and the training used. The top rider has ridden the test with relaxation and kindness. The bottom horse is tense and so is the rider. Because the bottom horse is unbalanced so is the rider and the rider has had to lean to the right with the weight being down the left side and in the left leg of the rider. The bottom rider is riding against his horse is leaning to the right with weight to the left and both are very tense. The top horse shows relaxation in the extended walk and moves over his back and is able to seek a giving rein and can stretch over his back . Over all the top horse has the correct training to enable him to move freely and willingly forward. The bottom horse is tense, in the canter the rider was holding onto the reins and the riders weight was on the left side, and he was tipping to the right. Horses are not natural weight carriers, so his horse has to adjust his balance to try and suit that of his rider. That must be so painful for the horse (back problem?) hence stiff horse. Saddles are so so important for horse and rider. My last horse-- God rest her soul--was a Freisian, and changed shape every year, without fail. so I invested in a treeless saddle by Smart saddles, one of the earlier makes, no it did not look like a bucket, but it opened up her back and freed up her shoulder, The muscle damage on her shoulders from using previous conventional dressage saddles healed, (this was 16 years ago,) but it was like riding bare back and it did take me six weeks to get used to the saddle, and I never got any seat bone pain if I rode over a long distance and my horse did not suffer any more back problems. However it is what suits you.
Thank you for the detailed insights Maverick, especially about the lowest marked rider's hands. These riders should smash this 'simple' dressage test and I really am amazed that there appears to be issues with a horse that completed the jumping elements. It that horse was pure dressage I would be convinced that the training had an element of holding in the front end but that doesn't exactly fit with the talent for jumping. I realise that few event riders relish dressage because their strategy is to trust the horse, in the main, but for dressage they have to do more of the directing. Watch this space!
I just watched a vid where the rider doing dressage BRIDELESS AND BITLESS. True poetry in motion, rider and horse as 1. Takes more talent than these ego centrics pulling harsh bits, double bridles etc Why do we allow anyone do this?? Follow the $$$ same for all pro horse sports. It has to STOP
I completely agree and I can't see how modern pure dressage has a place in the modern world. It's entirely unsustainable. There are, however, a handful of riders making a difference but until these riders rise to the top and stay there, we are going to see the harsh riders continuing to reap rewards for a riding style that is widely discouraged at grass roots level. Event riders are not the worst....
I agree with your assessment between the Highest marked and Lowest marked Dressage tests. I agree also with @gigglingdingo 's assessment between the riders' hand position and seat position. He, the rider, is way too far forward, just my thoughts on him. He is encombering his horses action by having his saddle forward over the horses' center of gravity, COG, and by allowing that saddle to slip too far forward, he is now restricting the ability of his horse to extend through any of the required extentions that are called for in this test. I would rather see his saddle slip back, as opposed to slipping higher on the horse's neck! Makes me wonder, because he was in a Dressage saddle, why is this horses equipment not fitting correctly? That's the question that just begs to be answered, isn't it? For that rider to end up so far forward, and seeing that he was wearing a breastplate to keep the saddle slipping back, why then is it slipping forward? Does the horse have no withers? London 52, which was Collettes horse, had more muscle across his back, and his more musculoskeletal structure should have dictated that he would be the one I would think would not have a great wither. But it shows what some judges will allow, and what would benefit the horse the most, is not even in consideration here. And this was watched by many, around the world, for all to see. This should be able to be reviewed, with an eye towards bettering the lives of our equine partners, as not what to do. Just my thoughts and opinions on this topic. Thank you very much, Ms.Lindsay, for putting this up there and going through the test the way you did. It was an eye-opener for many, I'm sure. Your friend, the Retired Paramedic, FORMER FEI Judge, and now Horse Trainer in Ontario, Canada, Jenn 💖 🇨🇦
Thank you for your detailed insights, Jennifer. I recall that this horse is based in Germany where there would be more than sufficient support for the combination in terms of veterinary, physio and saddle fitting. I think you're on the right lines about topline musculature. That would be interesting to appraise - the whole horse appears under developed to me. Let me know if you and your fellow judges would like to make a similar film :-)
Great learning, thanks for the effort. I noticed the tail of the horse with the breastplate was held in the same position all the time without change, that seemed odd to me.
could you do the same with the grand prix Just Dressage focused rider teams? maybe even a comparison between a well scored horse vs a horse that got a good score but probably shouldn't have?
I'm ready to compare the Individual with the highest mark and the Individual with the lowest mark. It's painful to watch and I was seeing a lot of what is wrong with modern dressage with those two riders. For your second suggestion I may compare Becky Moody (great horse and riding) with Isobel Werth who I was expecting to be inspired by.... Or I may pitch Carl Hester against Isobel Werth!
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what a great break down and study,especially for those of us not well versed in horse stuff. love it. it very much gives words to the 'gut feeling' i had looking at both horses.
Thank you! Do stay tuned for the next comparison - pure dressage, the winner and the lowest marked loser.
Caroline... I found this Very helpful... as a self-studier of Dressage horses - I agree with you in regards to the saddle fitment of the lower score horse, but I suspect that issue is because the lower score rider appears to me to be just a tad bit too big for the horse. The horse is not muscled up, but even so, as the lower score rider signals for impulsion via pelvic motion, his mass ( force x weight) is actually forward of the Horses Centre of Gravity (hence adding weight to the horses front and reducing its impulsion). This incorrect rider position ( ie shift forward of the horses COG) also results in the rider's hands being lower - as the reins are closer to horizontal there is more direct force pulling the bit rearwards ( hence pulling the neck over bent). If you watch where the lower score rider's hands are - they are almost always at the level of the saddle's pommel, by comparison look at where Collette's hands are - they are above the pommel and higher ( and notably more actively giving length when required and therefore applying lesser direct rearwards contact force) - the angle of the reins show that Collette's contact is softer ( ie not as much horizontal rearwards force). So I think what is happening with the lower score rider is that his incorrect position is causing his contact to be felt much stronger by the younger horse. This stronger contact is something that horse would appear to have experienced for some time, hence why it is behind the vertical, hollow backed, not extending and lacking power/ Impulsion). Very interesting - I known for dressage the actual judges scores card are available via a subscription through the FEI website - not sure if the eventing dressage score cards are available.
Beautifully explained ❤
Thank you for this helpful video!!! I appreciate you posting it! ❤
Very good analysis Caroline.Thank you.
Overall you can see the vast difference between the top horse and the bottom horse and the training used.
The top rider has ridden the test with relaxation and kindness. The bottom horse is tense and so is the rider. Because the bottom horse is unbalanced so is the rider and the rider has had to lean to the right with the weight being down the left side and in the left leg of the rider. The bottom rider is riding against his horse is leaning to the right with weight to the left and both are very tense. The top horse shows relaxation in the extended walk and moves over his back and is able to seek a giving rein and can stretch over his back .
Over all the top horse has the correct training to enable him to move freely and willingly forward.
The bottom horse is tense, in the canter the rider was holding onto the reins and the riders weight was on the left side, and he was tipping to the right. Horses are not natural weight carriers, so his horse has to adjust his balance to try and suit that of his rider. That must be so painful for the horse (back problem?) hence stiff horse.
Saddles are so so important for horse and rider. My last horse-- God rest her soul--was a Freisian, and changed shape every year, without fail. so I invested in a treeless saddle by Smart saddles, one of the earlier makes, no it did not look like a bucket, but it opened up her back and freed up her shoulder, The muscle damage on her shoulders from using previous conventional dressage saddles healed, (this was 16 years ago,) but it was like riding bare back and it did take me six weeks to get used to the saddle, and I never got any seat bone pain if I rode over a long distance and my horse did not suffer any more back problems. However it is what suits you.
Thank you for the detailed insights Maverick, especially about the lowest marked rider's hands. These riders should smash this 'simple' dressage test and I really am amazed that there appears to be issues with a horse that completed the jumping elements. It that horse was pure dressage I would be convinced that the training had an element of holding in the front end but that doesn't exactly fit with the talent for jumping. I realise that few event riders relish dressage because their strategy is to trust the horse, in the main, but for dressage they have to do more of the directing. Watch this space!
I just watched a vid where the rider doing dressage BRIDELESS AND BITLESS. True poetry in motion, rider and horse as 1. Takes more talent than these ego centrics pulling harsh bits, double bridles etc
Why do we allow anyone do this?? Follow the $$$ same for all pro horse sports. It has to STOP
I completely agree and I can't see how modern pure dressage has a place in the modern world. It's entirely unsustainable. There are, however, a handful of riders making a difference but until these riders rise to the top and stay there, we are going to see the harsh riders continuing to reap rewards for a riding style that is widely discouraged at grass roots level. Event riders are not the worst....
I agree with your assessment between the Highest marked and Lowest marked Dressage tests. I agree also with @gigglingdingo 's assessment between the riders' hand position and seat position. He, the rider, is way too far forward, just my thoughts on him. He is encombering his horses action by having his saddle forward over the horses' center of gravity, COG, and by allowing that saddle to slip too far forward, he is now restricting the ability of his horse to extend through any of the required extentions that are called for in this test. I would rather see his saddle slip back, as opposed to slipping higher on the horse's neck! Makes me wonder, because he was in a Dressage saddle, why is this horses equipment not fitting correctly? That's the question that just begs to be answered, isn't it?
For that rider to end up so far forward, and seeing that he was wearing a breastplate to keep the saddle slipping back, why then is it slipping forward? Does the horse have no withers? London 52, which was Collettes horse, had more muscle across his back, and his more musculoskeletal structure should have dictated that he would be the one I would think would not have a great wither. But it shows what some judges will allow, and what would benefit the horse the most, is not even in consideration here. And this was watched by many, around the world, for all to see. This should be able to be reviewed, with an eye towards bettering the lives of our equine partners, as not what to do. Just my thoughts and opinions on this topic. Thank you very much, Ms.Lindsay, for putting this up there and going through the test the way you did. It was an eye-opener for many, I'm sure. Your friend, the Retired Paramedic, FORMER FEI Judge, and now Horse Trainer in Ontario, Canada, Jenn 💖 🇨🇦
Thank you for your detailed insights, Jennifer. I recall that this horse is based in Germany where there would be more than sufficient support for the combination in terms of veterinary, physio and saddle fitting. I think you're on the right lines about topline musculature. That would be interesting to appraise - the whole horse appears under developed to me. Let me know if you and your fellow judges would like to make a similar film :-)
Great learning, thanks for the effort. I noticed the tail of the horse with the breastplate was held in the same position all the time without change, that seemed odd to me.
Thank you, yes I did not comment on that but it seemed odd to me that the tail was plaited in that way, as if it were tightly bandaged.
could you do the same with the grand prix Just Dressage focused rider teams? maybe even a comparison between a well scored horse vs a horse that got a good score but probably shouldn't have?
I'm ready to compare the Individual with the highest mark and the Individual with the lowest mark. It's painful to watch and I was seeing a lot of what is wrong with modern dressage with those two riders. For your second suggestion I may compare Becky Moody (great horse and riding) with Isobel Werth who I was expecting to be inspired by.... Or I may pitch Carl Hester against Isobel Werth!
@@HorseSaddleRider Now that would be interesting!
i don't believe in horse abuse or rolkour