My favorite comment. You're absolutely right. "Let's apply the same standards of Earth, without including the enormous amount of exceptions, to the entire universe, without our species actually having a full understanding of pretty much anything." You could disprove potatoes if you try hard enough.
*Meanwhile, somewhere in the deep Amazon* For the last time, I'm telling you that it's impossible for there to be Humans beyond this region. If there were other Humans, or *laughs* some kind of planet-spanning civilization, they surely would have built semaphore towers (the most advanced form of communication we know of) in our random region of the planet in order to communicate and we would be able to see them.
@@mrsheldon9134 Yes it is but since Bananas are alive phosphorus necessarily is a major component of them probably an inefficient and impractical component but a component never less.
@@jonahisparanoid1767 All species only think of themselves. If it was just humans, then we wouldn't see other invasive species destroying ecosystems. The romanticized "balance" we see in undisturbed ecosystems is due to evolutionary pressures, not altruism.
You just made "Independence Day" a valid movie if the focus of the aliens was "need phosphorus". Both Earth's lifeforms and Earth's core are relatively rich, as you've explained.
@@fatbasterd5195 phosphorus is high on the periodic table, IE hard to make! That’s why nature uses neutron star collusion’s?! Not common and less so in early universe.
@@fatbasterd5195 Nevertheless, why not consider the information he's provided? Anyway, don't sweat it, in a normal discussion that's what people do. If you have some information that the others didn't have, you share it with them to improve their understanding (not to score "points"). They then learn form that information (without getting offended). At the same time, I agree with you that a civilization capable of power generation sufficient for interstellar travel is likely already making use of fusion or matter/antimatter annihilation. Odds are they'd be able to manufacture heavier elements, and even if it's an energy-expensive process (I believe you'd need to use particle accelerators to induce neutron capture), they would be able to produce the required energy (perhaps from stars).
@@cykeok3525 Yeah but everyone could be different, you could have group that decides that they should just harvest it for whatever reason, maybe they have strong religious beliefs or something similar? The possibilities are expansive.
This seems like the most probable "solution" to the Fermi Paradox I have ever heard. It could make life exceptionally rare in our current universe, even rarer in the distant past, and even if life did form using other elements, perhaps the lack of phosphorus would be enough to slow evolution to the point that life would only become complex as it's star died.
@@futureproof.health That's assuming that a stabilising moon is necessary. I see no good reason to believe that it is. Mars' axis seems stable enough and it's moons are so tiny they don't make any difference. Venus also has a stable axis, despite having no moons and a very slow rotation. Imo, the large moon idea is very speculative and not supported by evidence.
@@antonystringfellow5152 All of this is speculative. :D But as far as the large moon goes, it seems to be important for long term temperature regulation, by slowly dumping energy in the form of tidal forces. A large moon also helps with maintenance of a magnetic field. So, I guess my point is that a large stabilizing moon stabilizes more than rotation. I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject though.
@@weaponizedemoticon1131 didn’t the moon speed up the development of land based life? By introducing tides and the tidal zone or whatever it’s name is?
It's neat. What I don't understand is why so many heavy elements have "dying low mass stars" as a source. Sunlike stars can't usually make anything heavier than neon - certainly not lanthanides! (and lower mass stars haven't died yet)
@@fluffysheap , -that table may be out of date, as we now know that colliding neutron stars create heavy elements, something we'd not thought of until that was observed producing a lot of gold.- Edit: right there in purple, "Merging neutron stars" I'm a dumbass.
@Descenter , I just typed _origin of elements_ into Google, its auto complete suggested _origin of elements periodic table_ and I clicked that. The images tab has variations of that table, with colours indicating origins.
Another informative episode on a topic I never really thought about. The Phosphorus Problem is certainly unknown outside expert circles. Fantastic work as always Isaac and team.
@BBB H Have you listened to any of Dr. James Tours' lectures on the origin of life? Wow, he lays it out the way it is, and all the evolutionists sat down and shut up. Most of the 'stories' that evolutionists like to invent circumvent the question of origins and the fact of INFORMATION ENCODING which is necessary to form useful biological molecules and structures. It didn't just happen because it COULDN'T just happen. Even this video is another nail in the coffin of old evolutionary conjecture. I'd be surprised if the Creationists didn't pick up on this. I watched, I gleaned what was good out of this lecture and chucked the evolution emphasis, which is totally unnecessary anyways.
@@HuFlungDung2 like it or not, evolutionary theory is still the closest thing to explaining how life arose. Simply hand waving and stating someone or something did it just moves the question on how those beings arose and evolved as they've had to start from somewhere.
@@Axeman20 yes and no ... Time as we understand it didnt always exist .... It was created. Similar to thinking what created all the stuff in the big bang? Prior to that time as a part of space time didnt exist
@@HuFlungDung2 It's not impossible it just makes the odds of life forming from nonliving material far less likely. It's why I say those who shifted from "god created life" to "life is everywhere" are even worse off from where they started. Life most likely is incredibly rare as the universe wasn't made to make life, if anything it was made to make black holes. Life is incredibly complicated and fragile so even the life that does exist can be wiped out in only a day. Life rides the fine line in a universe full of chaos and destruction with a nature of unpredictability. That being said life as itself isn't impossible to form naturally. Again our world is fairly rich in phosphorus compared to others and likely the other planets in the solar system are too though the others didn't stand a chance for life for other reasons. Complexity for life also isn't really an issue either as we've already found that basic amino acids form fairly easily on their own and bind together naturally. But the process of that forming life is on the scales of thousands of years so us ever watching new life form ourselves is not ever going to happen. Not to mention that even if we could it would die instantly to other life on this planet already as existing life is more evolved to instantly cause it to die off. DNA also isn't as surprising either as while it looks complicated the acids can only form in specific patterns so you can't cause odd combinations without completely changing how it was made. Once life exists however the changes can be modified by the life itself by mutations and external pressures such as viruses injecting new DNA into life. Remember that viruses also likely predate actual life as they are far simpler in structure and function more simply.
Next on the Fermi paradox why intelligent life avoids areas contaminated by phosperous, since it prevents the evolution of sufficiently intelligent life to contact.....
I’m more and more convinced that the rare earth hypothesis is true and that humanity is probably the earliest formed intelligent life in the Milky Way.
It depends on your definition of intelligent, though. I definitely prefer the draw the line at technology or even language, since it would be hard to imagine advanced colonies or societies existing without both. And curiously, you don't really need to be very intelligent to use language or have technology. Many animals on earth arguably dabble in those things without being particularly intelligent by our standards. I would even argue that many people are a bit thick, yet they all use language and technology anyway. It is easy enough to imagine a super-intelligent alien jellyfish much more intelligent than us being stuck in the sea because of its anatomy, not for lack of brains. And you could also easily have language and intelligence without technology, particularly with aquatic species where harnessing basic things like fire would not be possible. And all told, aquatic species are the most likely, since evidence from earth indicates that it forms more easily and quickly there than in terrestrial settings, and is more protected from extinction too and so more likely to endure for a long time. Someone apparently decided that all snow flakes are unique, although who investigated them all to ascertain this has never been made clear. But I see no reason why the same shouldn't be the case with planets, given the complexities of randomly generating something that large, melting it and then cooling it again with all the chemistry involved in that million-year process. Look closely at any of the planets in this solar system, even if highly dead, and they are all unique. Even Mercury, which might be the least spectacular at first glance. Hell, even Pluto is wildly fascinating just from the few images we got during the fly-by. And that is a tiny ex-planet. If anywhere should be boring, it's Pluto. And it isn't. Anyway, life, wherever we find it, would inevitably be at the very end of a long chain of large, yet random events and the most unique thing of all present there, I would imagine. Like the outer edge of a snow crystal, to use that analogy again. I see absolutely no reason to believe that life can't be ubiquitous and at the same time unique. The same as other life only in the most general sense, the way we're the same as plants or insects. We are and we aren't, obviously.
We are in the first 10% of all intelligent life in the Universe, so if an Alien species is going to populate the Universe then it will be starting around now. It could well be happening in another galaxy already and we have yet to see the signs, but it seems inevitable to happen. Say if Earth is the only habitable planet in the whole of our Galaxy and on average there is one habitable planet in each galaxy, thats still 125 billion habitable planets, refine that because of phosphorus to 1% thats still 1.25 billion habitable planets or even 0.1% thats 125 million habitable planets. Refine that 125m for intelligent life by another 0.1%, thats 125,000 intelligent species potentially able to take over the Universe. Even if the elements are so low and habitable planets are so rare the sheer number in scale means there has to be more than just us.
@@politicallycorrectredskin796 there would never a superintelligent blob, if an animal doesn’t benefit from superintelligence, life won’t develop it’s intelligence since it will not give it an evolutionary advantage, why so you think Dolphins have been like smart since a long time but never conquered the earth, because a dolphin as smart as a human won’t benefit from it, they can’t do fire, nor melt metal, and definitely no electricity since if they developed that, they would fry
@@nutsbroker5687 I agree. But if it's an intelligent, alien jellyfish it clearly must have benefited it to be intelligent, right? If I gave you all the data on octopuses and you knew nothing about them, you would probably expect them to be slow and dumb just based on related species like clams, starfish etc. Yet they're pretty smart. I would even go so far as to say that they prove that we can't prove where exactly intelligence can develop.
@@politicallycorrectredskin796 yes, consciousness, language and technology... and a planet like earth and its solar system, an atmosphere with the right composition, pressure and temperature to sustain a flame “fire” to start his technology for heating, cooking, melting, smelting and a steam engine
It is amazing and gratifying that a question I asked about a year ago that was nixed by moderators made it as a complete episode. Phosphorus is indeed a significant problem for potential complex life out there, and something that could make galactic colonization a magnitude harder/slower.
I've suggested a couple of topics we hsvent seen. One is space travel and exploration by individuals or small groups in small ships, referring somewhat to the idea of pilgrims in wing commander without the silliness. The other is the idea of space colonisation by low tech people groups who ate not bound by modern rules of safety, akin to the Polynesians conquering the pacific ocean
Everything you need to colonize an airless moon can be found at home depot. @Gökmen ALTUNAŞ has videos on simple DIY tools for your initial machine shop. @This old Tony can show you how to use them.
I wonder how many tons of rare radioactive elements it takes to keep a core molten & producing a magnetosphere for millions of years, and if that is a tighter bottleneck than having phosphorus for life to use. (Rarer material, with an expiration date, and larger quantities needed)
I can't imagine why this was ever nixed I mean this has literally changed my whole view on the fermi paradox to the point of like basically answering it for me, not for absolutely sure mind you but as a great filter like wow
@@Bbq7272 that would be interesting but the distances are sooooo much more than back then, it would be like going the distance from the north to south pole if the earth was 100 times the size of the sun with nothing in between, like they could definitely try lol
I guess it was, though I always hate tinkering with scripts once they're recorded, let alone already produced as a video and ready to air, thus making me probably the only person whose response to the discovery was to start cursing :) As I recall when the team was editing the addendum to the script one of them flagged a paragraph as "Tone: Grumpy"
@@isaacarthurSFIA I guess no one likes going back over a good job of work whence it is finished! Sorry it put you out, but thank you for the effort, was very interesting to here you give a more direct critique of the paper. Bit cheeky to ask you for even more content, but is that something you'd consider, doing a review series on interesting papers that fall within the SFIA remit? Just I think your approach to science explanation would really benefit that area of content...obviously I mean this as well as PLEASE continuing doing all the stuff you already do...so yeah, pretty rude of me to ask sorry, but is something I've wondered for a few years of watching your excellent work.
Indeed :) he's damn good at that, there's a fair few video topics that line up well with late breaking studies.. its part of the reason I love this channel the way I do
@@isaacarthurSFIA lol well with all the hard work you put into these videos, I'm sure the last thing you want to do is go back and redo it >.< but hey that's a good analogy for science itself. Just as your finishing something... something else comes up forcing you to go back and redo parts, create new bits or even COMPLETELY redo the damned thing.
Daniel Attenborough i listened to it, all i found was some people LARPing, if you’re going to convince me that aliens exist and that we have met them before, you’re going to have to do better than what is essentially two men in a call together making a silly video.
@@danielattenborough8172 if only the thumbs down button worked properly like it did in the good old days before google bought out youtube and fucked it up ... :) Btw I wonder who you think you're going to convince with that word salad ???
@@danielattenborough8172 Seriously Daniel that acid really f#*ks with your mind. I didn't need to consider anything because your initial comment mentioned extra terrestrials being interviewed on RUclips. But thanks for the laugh. Remember Danny boy, 'just say no'
Actually, the 'other Isaac' (Asimov) sorta covered this in one of his longer articles 'explaining science', this one going into what natural bottlenecks there would be to a common S.F. theme: 'citified' planets. He looked at the relative abundance of various elements on Earth, trying to determine what the maximum population could be, based on that factor. It was a *fascinating* article because it had *never* occurred to me to wonder about that. Sure enough, he concluded that the tightest bottleneck, *by far,* was phosphorus. Toward the end he even briefly speculated what this might mean in regards to colonizing other planets; but he couldn't reach any conclusions, not even basic general ones, because *when* he wrote that (in the 60s, I believe), we knew almost nothing about elemental abundances (beyond hydrogen versus helium versus 'others') off Earth - and *especially* outside our Solar System!
Fun fact: Morocco has the greatest concentration of phosphate ore on Earth, with greater commercially available deposits than the next 10 countries combined. The ore isn't that difficult to process, but it does include washing the rock with acid, and the side effect is gypsum (phosphogypsum) with low level radioactivity. In the U.S. that requires remediation, piling the gypsum into huge covered 'stacks.'
That supply of easily accessible concentrated phosphorus is also running out. Moreover we are extremely wasteful with fertilizers made from phosphorus which mostly runs off into the oceans where it is the primary cause of agricultural runoff. In the future should humanity continue to be this wasteful we will soon run out and run into the situation where the most concentrated sources of phosphorus are landfills and cemeteries. After all there's phosphorus in them bones! Remember bone is primarily composed of calcium phosphate which seems to have originally evolved as an essential way to store phosphorus for later use, before they were converted into armor and later internalized to become our bones. This is why bone is so quick to be lost in low gravity phosphorus not needed to be wasted on structural support means more potential for growth! Plus that calcium is also important for triggering the firing of the action potentials which drive muscle cells and neurons but phosphorus is far more essential for all life since calcium can be swapped out for other metals where as phosphorus can't
This is the last addition to "Rare Earth" being the solution to the FP. The question is henceforth solved in my eyes. Both terrifying and illuminating as all deep scientific truths should be. Thanks for this Isaac.
Other than the word "solved" I agree. Be careful of the mindset that is so confident of an answer that it won't even consider evidence for other answers. But it certainly seems that the many reasons earth is so uniquely suitable for life (not least of which is the chemistry discussed here) is the reason we don't see it anywhere else. We're infinitely-improbably lucky to have this planet.
@@JonathanSchattke I pity those in your life who *have* been "there" only to be met with your ego and disdain rather than compassion. It doesn't even matter if I've been there or not. What matters is you thought I was there, and rather than just ignoring it and scrolling away, actually took the effort to type something so utterly toxic.
Me: "This looks interesting. Title seems kinda clickbaitish though. Could phosphorus really be _that_ important?" Isaac Arthur: * de-acronymizes ATP * Me: "Oh."
Technically it's only an acronym if you pronounce it. If you just pronounce the individual letters, like in ATP, it's an initialism but is also often just referred to as an abbreviation (initialisms and acronyms are both types of abbreviation). So, regardless of whether you pronounce GIF with a hard G or, correctly, a soft G, as long as you aren't just spelling it out, it's an acronym, but DNA isn't (unless you're weird and pronounce it "dinna").
@@StarkRG how does one soothe a pedant? "There, their, they're..." All jokes aside, definitely appreciate the pedantics, as it is a relatively rare treat to learn such a new esoteric detail of the English language!
Ugh. Dam. You've accidentally started me on a bout of existential dread...I had always assumed that alien invasions for a specific material were ludicrous, like what precious metal or material would be worth invading a planet for that already hosted life? Now phosphorus...apparently that might actually be worth the effort considering it may be fundamental to all life in the universe, is incredibly rare to find on the crust of rocky planets and it may be the key to expanding a civilisation. Oh dear.
I am sure that Arthur would say that it takes less effort to do starlifting or transmutation but who knows. I mean whipping out the life that live here is not the hard part. Just getting here. ;)
@@Cythil star lifting may be easier. I guess it all comes down to cost of travel. Will terraforming, harvesting/transiting/sequestering that and other essential materials be more cost effective than travelling to the arse end of the galaxy to invade this pale blue dot? Though given how 2020 has gone, you may forgive my sense of impending doom.
I think lots of people make the mistake thinking that the earth is not worth invading because we don't have any raw materials there aren't already available everywhere in space. But what people forget is that we have our whole ecosystem. We are incredibly valuable for any alien species just as a zoo. It takes super long time to terraform a planet and we have a rich ecosystem ready to go on our planet. For any high level alien civilization nothing is more valuable than time and the condition of our world is such that a lot of time has gone into making it what it is. And one can make earth into something else a lot quicker than it takes time to do the same to a planet like mars. Earth is more valuable than thousand space ore mines and gadget factories combined. Ironically I think our tech and raw materials are worthless. The things we measure us by would be worthless for any space civilization. But our planet and its ecosystem, literally priceless.
@Scott Johnstone very true genetic material is a, seemingly, very scarce resource on a universal scale from what wr have observed. Infact intelligence is, pound for pound, the absolute rarest thing we've quantified in the universe. Matter that thinks, plans and creates tools for its self organisation has to be the rarest material in a universe where we have a fermi paradox by definition.
i would honestly rather the answer to the fermi paradox be phosphorus over some crazy supernova storm, since a phosphorus answer is far less deadly to our existence in the universe than crazy supernova storms or reapers from mass effect, as it’s a bit easier to control for
Yet somehow, it seems like a better solution than something more exotic and it also solves the important question of "Why aren't there any Type 3 and above civilizations?" which is one of the most unnerving mysteries of the Fermi Paradox.
Yeah but by Ocam's razer that makes it the most likely as the simplest is usually the right answer. It feels pitifully weak but then again our main issue is seeing no intelligent life and this is a good answer to it. If the main element of life is rare and intelligence is hard to develop then it makes sense to see basically nothing. Plus if it is phosphorus then where we are in the galaxy also makes sense as too far out in the galaxy and you'd have no phosphorus while too far in you have the chaotic nature of the dense central galaxy with more super novas, more black holes, and higher odds of a gamma ray burst. It really is the perfect storm solution we can think of. But hey, if it is true, we may be one of the first intelligent life forms in the galaxy. Better get ourselves setup better as we get to set the rules, if we can live long enough to get out to the galaxy.
Hi Isaac, this is the first video of yours that I've watched, and I have to say: I'm hooked! You explained ATP/ADP better in this video than any one of my professors in the last four years of my biology degree. Keep up the good work, I'll be watching!
@@jerrysstories711 - I agree, I think we are alone in the universe, but when we begin to colonize the universe, we must remember to bring phosphorus with us
So, lets list the known indications of life on Venus. Coexisting sulfur dioxyde and hydrogen sulphide in the atmosphere, a layer containing free chlorine gas just under the main cloud deck, a mysterious ultraviolet absorbing substance in the clouds themselves, and now phosphine gas. I'd say the case for some sort of life existing on Venus is getting better all the time.
I was just trying to explain this topic to someone just yesterday and today this video appeared on my Isaac Aurther list, Perfect timing as now I can send them a link to this video today which explains it much better than I ever could, I always look forward to everything you have to say and I rewatch your videos numerous times, Thank you for producing such great content and all the hard work you put into them, Keep up the good work
@@RemusKingOfRome I remember back in college my Chem professor - who amusingly was the grandson of Satyendra Bose of Bose-Einstein Condensate - explained the process of decaffeinating coffee beans, I said at the time that it was when I first realized science could be used for evil :)
Our place in the galaxy does make it possible. It's where phosphorus would form quicker than say the rim but not too fast where other heavy elements make life harder or like in the center of the galaxy, too chaotic for life to be sustained to intelligence. We may be the first intelligent life in the galaxy as we are in just the right place in the galaxy. The perfect answer to the fermi paradox. Downside is that naturally we don't want to view ourselves as in a significant place so we don't acknowledge it. But it very much could be true.
@@paulbolton4929 "We;re babies" is the default assumption in most discussions and stories I've seen. Case in point: The Day the Earth Stood Still. But that's only an early, popular example.
@@justicar5 nay!!! Its like the guy with the hoodie and the old lady with the cell phone in the old pictures. The ONLY acceptable solution is time travel, all else is heresy!!!
In regards to the Fermi paradox. Regardless of what happens, we should always strive to be the best we can be. All our actions will either be those of the oldest race in the universe, or our image in the minds of those older than us.
I’ve been listening to this channel nightly, as I fall asleep. It does wonders to take my mind off of daily concerns and adds color to my dreaming. Admittedly, I fall asleep often, but that just means I get to rewatch episodes! ❤️
15:30 I'm no professor, but the second life form on earth doesn't need Oxygen to breath, even if it has oxygen. It's a Sulfur found in extremophiles -- Sulfur, Carbon, Hydrogen and some oxygen. Look up extremophiles. There are two dealing with sulfur. Cool Stuff
This is probably the best channel on all things science/science fiction on all of RUclips. Great episode Isaac! I hope you're staying safe in these turbulent times :)
Wow. I didn't know phosphorous was so rare! Also, the electron transport chain that creates ATP and ADP are among the most complex of our cellular systems. It is amazing to see an animation of how Mitochondria create ATP in cells complete with a very intricate and complex set of nano-machines to do it with. Also I guess in the future everyone dresses like dairy cattle?
Ahh, coming to this channel is like taking a hot bath for the mind. I love how many different facets of the Fermi paradox you've looked into, whereas even other science channels give a brief overview
Thank you so much for mentioning the potential (and more likely) abiotic sources for phosphine. The media ran wild with that story and the fact is "clouds of phosphine" actually means a few parts per billion in the upper atmosphere.
But if you want it to happen faster you would need to tap on its momentum and slow their rotation a lot. And when it explode you don't want to be around...
“We'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent lifeforms everywhere and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
@@justsomeguynamedduren Yikes that would suck. Unless strange matter isn't as contagious as we think it might be converting normal matter into an Einstein condescend. Remember that strange matter could always be part of dark matter as well as we really know nothing about strange matter.
Thanks for the Jerry Guern shoutout. I bought his book, “No Moon To Pray To” after listening to some of the short stories on his RUclips channel, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope to see him gain more recognition as an author in the future.
OMG THANK YOU for introducing us to Jerry's Stories! If anyone reading this hasn't checked them out yet, go do it now. Trust me. You will not regret it. Well, unless you are really short on time, that is. You are going to be there for quite a while once you start listening.
I have a theory: the emergence of alien civilizations should follow the natural distribution, meaning very few in the beginning and the rate slowly rising. The first civilization to ever appear should have the whole galaxy for itself for a very long time, possibly long enough to completely colonize it before anyone else manages to create their own civilization. If that's the case, then the first civilization is likely to also be the last. Considering that we exist, it's reasonable to presume that we are that first civilization in the Milky Way.
That assumes we become a galaxy spanning species. There could be millions at our level of civilisation. But hardly any more advanced ones as they wipe themselves out or reach some other extinction event.
Early alien civilizations - if there were any in the universe - never left their homeworld. We are blessed in that our solar system is the child of a whole series of supernova events. Civilizations which began billions of years ago would not have that advantage. So they would have less heavy elements available to them. You can't industrialize a planet when iron and copper is as scarce as gold is for us.
if an alien intelligence, even as close by as Jupiter, could build up an invading armada, their tech would crush us. For alien invaders who could travel light years from nearby star systems, (even if they do not have anything faster than light) would consider our military tech closer to spears and arrows than their own. Consider the amount of money and the amount of effort for us to get primitive probe to Mars. And we haven't even dared to send another one to Venus. Tech to build an invasion force is miles ahead of what we can do. Plus, as SFIA has pointed out at times, all spaceships are themselves weapons. An "interstellar missile" is enough to wipe us all out, no resistance possible. Any and all stories about modern Earthlings putting up any resistance to aliens is totally ridiculous. We would be less significant than insects. Just thought I'd share these warm fuzzy thoughts.
Cuvtixo D I would suspect them to just hurl an asteroid at us because it’s far more efficient than coming here themselves. If their goal is to just destroy us then it wouldn’t make sense for them to come.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
For life to rise on Earth, it required hundreds of "Goldilocks" zones, from core size to elemental concentrations to star size to having a right sized moon to the amount of radiation in the local area of space.. These are incredible probabilities to come together in one place. Life is probably very rare and one planet had to be first, it could very well be us.
I totally agree. I will make a distinction between "any form of life" and "at equal or greater intelligence as humans" But i feel getting any form of life is only the start of the long chain of minute chance events that led to our level of civilisation.
@@barryschalkwijk9388 That's why i think that we are among the first, the universe has just "cooked" long enough within the last few billion years for life to arise. The universe is still relatively young 14 or so billion years and the first several were heavy element scarce and radiation hell.
@@stapuft type 'event horizon' into RUclips youll find it. Its another channel but he's a scientist that deals with interviews and discusses subjects SLIGHTLY more real than these. These are great but often er on the side of sci fi sometimes. :) Event Horizon is scientific interview over a paper or subject. THIS GUY was an awesome guest on several occasions.
1:47 EMPTY AND WASTED 2:48 The Phosphorus needed (ATP) 4:24 DNA chains are Phosphates 5:48 _The Phosphate Problem_ 8:32 6:42 Collision of Neutron Stars generate heavier elements (more than 40 protons) - It is Rare - It is unevenly distributed 9:29 Phosphide is not Phosphate 10:30 6 Key Elements for Lfie • O, C, H, N, Ca, P 12:44 How did Earth get Phosphorous? 14:01 *Carbonate Rich Lakes* 15:00 Part 1 Summary 16:13/16:45 17:13 We are on a Rare planet with a Rare element 18:11 Time is always at play
@@bogtrotter5110 I don't disagree, we should protect life on earth. yet why the need for emphasis on such a point, if you are to spread life you have to make sure your source is taken cared of, who expands a garden by neglecting what was there before. Also why do you think humanity has spread too far already?
@@bogtrotter5110 I doubt we'll be able to protect this planet if we don't expand into space. Humans are stupid and decadent creatures. Space colonization is our only hope.
@@robertsutton8894 Scientific speculation is the first step of scientific discovery, most times that speculation will be incorrect. The most foolish human being that impeded scientific development were the naysayers from religion and narrow minded thinking of the individuals. Perhaps a scientific video based on Element 115 or ununpentium would be a fantastic subject for a science video/science fiction video, and it may use scientific investigation and evidence that is useful to our enquiring FRIENDS.
@@ghostlyphantasm2352 Don't forget that religious orders were the founders of many of our centers for higher learning and much of our early scientists were clergy men
Don't worry. Our society can keep growing via heavy automation. We just have to worry about being replaced by the machines, though some people welcome that kind of thing.
Carbon and Phosphorous - A "match" made in heaven. and... Oh Venus, you are a tease. If we find life there: -From where did is come? -If from Venus herself that still says bugger-all about life in the wider universe -We will never know what wonders you may have harbored as recently as 500 million years ago. PS Thank you for another excellent episode. My gut, it says to me. We see no one because no one is there to see. By why no one among all these wonders immense? Maybe Phosphorous is the key.
I guess gold and other platinum group elements are also created during the collision of two neutron stars. Having them on Earth is a clear indication that we are indeed very lucky.
@R Bartram thanks, that's an interesting article with APOGEE scanning for new ones, "Phosphorus is extremely difficult to measure in stellar spectra because its lines are inherently weak and are only available in the near-IR or UV spectral ranges, which very few high-resolution spectrographs can actually cover." It seems this article attributes phosphorus to supernova instead of neutron star collision as this video suggested. Maybe we'll soon find more regions of the galaxy that can support life using APOGEE's techniques of scanning for phosphorus.
@R Bartram on a more local scale, I think there could be a lot of chemical harvesting done at rivers before they enter the sea. Think of all the phosphorus leeching out of our fertile lands.
@@TheRainHarvester Looking it up yes it seems to be listed as a core collapse supernovae product produced in trace amounts. It is the Neutron rich elements that come from Neutron stars. However this interestingly appears to be a bit simplistic Specifically Phosphorus appears to be a product of a star undergoing the oxygen burning phase meaning only stars massive enough to undergo core collapse so rather than the supernovae itself it is the stellar progenitors which are likely the source of the element. Interestingly the element is quite inhomogenous with the appearance of both phosphorus poor stars and old phosphorus rich but otherwise metal poor stars. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7403594/ Looking at the literature phosphorus is probably a product of a rare type of massive star with high rotation rates with most of the element ending up concentrated within the vicinity of the progenetor star with rotationally induced mixing. High rotation rates in massive late stage evolution stars notably is though to be a driving factor in the production of gamma ray burst events which are notably very directional in most of their energy dispersal (i.e. low radial velocity component extremely relativistic axial component) so I might hypothesize that the poor distribution could be a consequence of little phosphorus escaping its birthplace only polluting the stars forming in its vicinity. As a thought might stars like the Sun form only in the vicinity of a massive dying Wolf Rayet star? It is a stretch but since the solar system and hence the Sun shows evidence of having formed close enough to a Wolf Rayet star in order to be strongly enriched in a rare short lived isotope of aluminum with a short half life based on evidence for it having been present in significant amounts among the material that formed protoplanets in the early years of the solar system. If such a star was aligned in death to point perpendicular between the line connecting it and the Sun's part of the protosolar nebula... This hypothetical scenario could account for both factors and would potentially have resulted in a nonuniform enhancement of the Sun's birth cluster. Of course it is also possible that stars like the Sun could form as a second generation star formed from the material that composed a phosphorus enriched stellar neighbor to such an event. Interesting it seems the story behind phosphorus is far more complex than I anticipated which in hindsight makes perfect sense. Overall phosphorus does come in small amounts from normal supernova but that material gets well distributed and thus is very low in concentration. Phosphorus enrichment is possible but you need a far more extreme star forming environment like what occurred much earlier in the universe from the same events most capable of sterilizing any prospective planets. Edit: typo corrected mush->much
@@TheRainHarvester Yeah it is interesting phosphorus coming from the very massive stars which formed more commonly in the early universe is an interesting wrinkle which likely means there will be an optimal galactic peak phosphorus when general metallicity best fits with the timing of more exotic element specific nucleosynthesis products that are responsible for producing most of elements which are otherwise rarely produced in nature. As an interesting related note Calcium is another of those elements which is even more strongly associated with Calcium rich supernovae events. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200805102020.htm Given the elements critical role in the planets carbon cycle and its importance for complex biology as the main ion used for the action potential firing of neurons and muscle cells though unlike phosphorus there are potential substitutes for calcium life seems to preferentially prefer Calcium and sodium for action potential firing. It might be quite possible that complex life is most likely to emerge late in the stelliferous era as the planet sterilizing destructive events drop off in frequency but still occur so as to seed essential elements for life. Phosphorus depending primarily on rare reactions during oxygen burning is an interesting quirk as while oxygen is quite common accounting for 1% of all elements in the universe it is notoriously hard to fuse except as part of the secondary alpha chain process which gives rise to a significant number of other life critical elements. This is perhaps an example of a fine tuning parameter as were oxygen fusion easier stars could more readily reach silicon core fusion which produces iron and thus results in a core collapse supernovae occurring much sooner at far lower stellar masses. This makes phosphorus rare but without it there wouldn't be much of a wide array of elements sulfur another of the essential elements for life and stars probably wouldn't last long enough before collapsing in core collapse supernovae. If true this suggests the drake equation will likely have a strong peak time dependence. Without sulfur as an intermediary respiratory gas for driving biochemistry oxygen based photosynthesis and much later aerobic respiration could probably never have evolved in the first place. A key point often missed discussing life on Earth is that a lot if not the majority of anaerobic life tends to use metal ions dissolved in water for respiration. Oxygen based photosynthesis seems to have likely evolved perhaps as a means to compensate for hydrogen sulfide scarcity which most other photosynthetic bacteria use as their hydrogen donar to fix carbon. Oxygen was a toxic byproduct which they likely evolved tolerance for giving the the machinery to cope with oxygen enabling a similar reaction swap to trade sulfur for oxygen in respiration. As the respiratory yield is based off the energy released that the organism didn't spend trying to break the chemical bond the stronger the respiratory reagents energy potential. Oxyegn as the second most electronegative element that doesn't already have a full valence shell. Note technically Helium(I) and Neon(I) where they are missing an electron are more electronegative. Florine is the only reactive element that is more reactive than oxygen but it only needs one electron rather than two giving it less complex chemistry which coupled with Florine not being a common element unlike oxygen makes it a harder target to utilize). TDLR without sulfur life on Earth could never have developed the ability to metabolically utilize oxygen at least not by the path biology on Earth took. This sulfur comes at the cost of phosphorus in terms of how nuclear reactions unfold since oxygen is hard to fuse temperature wise. It is an interesting thing I hadn't considered before.
Hi, Isaac! I know that this is a long time late, but I did some back of the napkin calculations that pertain to this. Using the astromonomical P:H ratio of 10^5.5:10^12, we can assume there's roughly 6.3x10^13 kg of P in our system, the vast majority of which is in the sun. Assuming we get quite efficient with our agriculture [If youre curious I can send the assumptions Im calculating with] and can survive on fewer calories in the future (cause gene editing?) just factoring in farmland and humans, and no other organisms, the absolute max carrying capacity of our system seems to be in the septillions range, with the farmland reqired massing in around 1 lunar mass. Factoring in other ecosystems, Id guesstimate this figure is realistically in the low quintillions or high quadrillions.
This is fascinating. How did this element become so concentrated here? Where the need for such concentration is the difference between life and no possible life.
Atomic number 15 so star produced. Our sun is a second gen so likely candidates for life would be second gen solitary stars as well. It's funny, the phosphorus problem never occurred to me since I didn't realize it was so rare. But as soon as he started talking I immediately thought, yeah ATP then went OMG THE KREBS CYCLE. High schooler literally drink pounds of creatine for athletics, what would aliens think of that kind of flex?
Not exactly fermi paradox related, but- it's rather strange that phosphourus was first found while searching for the philosophers stone, a mythical item used in the elixer of immortality. even though I'm not very supersticious, it kind of really makes me wonder if there's a connection there since it's such a mandatory component of human life
well there are some bacteria that can use arsenate instead of phosphate. But that is partially substituting for 1 main function. Arsenic is more rare then Phosphorous and that fact no life uses sat the more common sulfate for membranes means it can't be.
Isaac Arthur is such an amazing, incredible & inspiring human being, that despite having a disability of being deaf he overcame it & made his success more than 99.99999% of people by using something that is related to his disability: Speach. I'm so happy for him & proud of him that it makes me want to cry. I'm so happy for him that he's outdone me by leaps & bounds.
I wonder if there's another temperature at which a chemistry similar to ours (solids, liquids, gases, a solvent, and a particular component that makes tons of varieties) would be common. For example much colder (liquid hydrocarbons as the solvent) or much hotter like on Hot Jupiter planets.
Particle Accelerators and Fusion can both produce heavier elements but depending on how technology develops, it might end up being Easier to just mine it
I'm currently dreaming up a design for a breeder reactor that can make phosphorus from silicon, as mentioned in the video. it would be expensive and probably make uranium into a hot commodity too (the thorium fuel cycle is neutron poor, not a good candidate)
I always thought one of Adams' weaknesses was the fact that H2G2 doesn't have a very good storyline, it's just a rambling adventure (my favorite). Dirk Gently dispels that myth though. It's an incredibly complex story with multiple storylines that dance around each other and only connect at the end. Worth the listen for sure!
I think it is likely that some of our nearest stars should also contain decent amounts of phosphorus as many of them should share materials from some of the same supernova and stellar collisions which helped to generate our solar system. Though by the time we ever get to stellar exploration it is likely that the atomic transmutation toolkit should already be fairly developed.
@@nolan4339 Stars get scattered around the galaxy over time. None of our current neighbors were anywhere near our star when it was born. Some stars do travel together after forming from single nebula, but I think our star is alone now
The year is 30XX, the United Planets is in a diplomatic meeting with a recent arrival on the galactic stage. A casual conversation with the ambassador reveals that this alien race has a planet rich in phosphorous reserves. Humanity took it upon themselves to bring freedom to this new species.
Great Video Isaac. I really enjoyed and learned a bit. Also thanks for the tip about Jerry. Listed to the one story and subscribed I'll be checking them all out in time.
The animations in this video are ‘jerky’ Every second or two a frame is missing and the image jumps. I didn’t notice it at first, but now I do it’s really annoying.
So... perhaps planetary wars over resources aren't so far-fetched after all. Just over access to phosphorus... or at least easily-accessible sources of phosphorus
Now, isn't Venus' "Day" longer than its "Year", i.e. it takes longer to rotate on its own axis than to go round the sun? & doesn't Venus rotate the opposite way to all other planets (incl. our Earth)? How'd these factors affect what life may form on Venus, or if at all?
Hope for machine civilizations their lack of a dependence on phosphorus means they will have less need to come after us. Silicon and carbon are quite abundant and many alkali, alkaline earth, transition elements(d block elements) and rare Earths (f block elements) can be substituted with each other chemically. Galactic niche partitioning may come to the rescue! :)
@@Dragrath1 that is a interesting point. If biological life only needs to live long enough to become a machine then there is very little point to leave your home system for a very long time.
sounds like the closest answer to the Fermi Paradox that you've given us so far! (Though obviously there could be a combination of factors, as you mentioned.)
It was this episode that convinced me that we're unlikely to find anywhere else with life in our galaxy and perhaps intelligence anywhere ever. If life has all these other things against it, as detailed in many other IA videos, and requires a vanishingly rare element as well, we might as well forget it. We're it. The Universe is ours if we can but keep out hands off each other's throats.
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/af0phKxitX8/mqdefault.jpg)
How far can we dive into the Fermi Paradox before we eventually disprove life on Earth?
We are all ready working on it.
Yep. More evidence that disproves evolution...!
My favorite comment. You're absolutely right. "Let's apply the same standards of Earth, without including the enormous amount of exceptions, to the entire universe, without our species actually having a full understanding of pretty much anything."
You could disprove potatoes if you try hard enough.
*Meanwhile, somewhere in the deep Amazon*
For the last time, I'm telling you that it's impossible for there to be Humans beyond this region. If there were other Humans, or *laughs* some kind of planet-spanning civilization, they surely would have built semaphore towers (the most advanced form of communication we know of) in our random region of the planet in order to communicate and we would be able to see them.
I'm pretty sure we already disproved intelligent life on Earth
Harvest the stars to grow bananas. This is the golden path of phosphorus proliferation. The phosphates must flow.
I thought bananas’ schtick was potassium?
BA NA NA
This is the human condition
@Abhi Prakash this is the way
@@mrsheldon9134 Yes it is but since Bananas are alive phosphorus necessarily is a major component of them probably an inefficient and impractical component but a component never less.
Let's build our 1st interstellar space ship out of phosphorus as a major space flex.
now this is how we narcissistic sadists colonize space.
My whip be like “Quit playin’ bitch, get in!” -50 cent
@@jonahisparanoid1767 All species only think of themselves. If it was just humans, then we wouldn't see other invasive species destroying ecosystems. The romanticized "balance" we see in undisturbed ecosystems is due to evolutionary pressures, not altruism.
Why not gold. 10 metres thicc.
@Phil Weatherley when we find aliens let's throw feces at them as a display of dominance
You just made "Independence Day" a valid movie if the focus of the aliens was "need phosphorus". Both Earth's lifeforms and Earth's core are relatively rich, as you've explained.
I'm assuming if they can build a space ship the size of the moon they can make their own phosphorus...
@@fatbasterd5195 phosphorus is high on the periodic table, IE hard to make! That’s why nature uses neutron star collusion’s?! Not common and less so in early universe.
@@manlyadventures Dude, you just a did a textbook "but ackchyually"
@@fatbasterd5195 Nevertheless, why not consider the information he's provided?
Anyway, don't sweat it, in a normal discussion that's what people do.
If you have some information that the others didn't have, you share it with them to improve their understanding (not to score "points").
They then learn form that information (without getting offended).
At the same time, I agree with you that a civilization capable of power generation sufficient for interstellar travel is likely already making use of fusion or matter/antimatter annihilation.
Odds are they'd be able to manufacture heavier elements, and even if it's an energy-expensive process (I believe you'd need to use particle accelerators to induce neutron capture), they would be able to produce the required energy (perhaps from stars).
@@cykeok3525 Yeah but everyone could be different, you could have group that decides that they should just harvest it for whatever reason, maybe they have strong religious beliefs or something similar? The possibilities are expansive.
This seems like the most probable "solution" to the Fermi Paradox I have ever heard. It could make life exceptionally rare in our current universe, even rarer in the distant past, and even if life did form using other elements, perhaps the lack of phosphorus would be enough to slow evolution to the point that life would only become complex as it's star died.
When you add the rarity of a stabilizing moon as big as ours. The odds of life get very far from being common
@@futureproof.health Very good point. The way our moon formed and stabilized within the habitable zone can't be common.
@@futureproof.health
That's assuming that a stabilising moon is necessary. I see no good reason to believe that it is. Mars' axis seems stable enough and it's moons are so tiny they don't make any difference. Venus also has a stable axis, despite having no moons and a very slow rotation.
Imo, the large moon idea is very speculative and not supported by evidence.
@@antonystringfellow5152 All of this is speculative. :D
But as far as the large moon goes, it seems to be important for long term temperature regulation, by slowly dumping energy in the form of tidal forces. A large moon also helps with maintenance of a magnetic field.
So, I guess my point is that a large stabilizing moon stabilizes more than rotation. I'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject though.
@@weaponizedemoticon1131 didn’t the moon speed up the development of land based life? By introducing tides and the tidal zone or whatever it’s name is?
"HE WHO CONTROLS PHOSPHORUS CONTROLS THE UNIVERSE" to paraphrase DUNE.
That's a probable scenario.
I wish I'd thought of that joke when writing the episode :)
I would like to take this opportunity to encourage everyone out there to go read Dune! And all 6 Frank Herbert Dune novels, they are amazing!
@@hermeticxhaote4723 new movie is coming , the spice must flow.
@@nereo051184 *phosphorus flows*
I've never seen that periodic table with the different indications of origin. Fascinating!
It's neat.
What I don't understand is why so many heavy elements have "dying low mass stars" as a source. Sunlike stars can't usually make anything heavier than neon - certainly not lanthanides! (and lower mass stars haven't died yet)
@@fluffysheap , -that table may be out of date, as we now know that colliding neutron stars create heavy elements, something we'd not thought of until that was observed producing a lot of gold.-
Edit: right there in purple, "Merging neutron stars"
I'm a dumbass.
@Descenter , I just typed _origin of elements_ into Google, its auto complete suggested _origin of elements periodic table_ and I clicked that.
The images tab has variations of that table, with colours indicating origins.
Yep, it was invented by somebody who like to conjecture a lot. bummer.
@@daveanderson718 not sure why you think that, could’ve been made when we had less information or other reasons.
Another informative episode on a topic I never really thought about. The Phosphorus Problem is certainly unknown outside expert circles.
Fantastic work as always Isaac and team.
@BBB H Have you listened to any of Dr. James Tours' lectures on the origin of life? Wow, he lays it out the way it is, and all the evolutionists sat down and shut up. Most of the 'stories' that evolutionists like to invent circumvent the question of origins and the fact of INFORMATION ENCODING which is necessary to form useful biological molecules and structures. It didn't just happen because it COULDN'T just happen. Even this video is another nail in the coffin of old evolutionary conjecture. I'd be surprised if the Creationists didn't pick up on this. I watched, I gleaned what was good out of this lecture and chucked the evolution emphasis, which is totally unnecessary anyways.
@@HuFlungDung2 like it or not, evolutionary theory is still the closest thing to explaining how life arose. Simply hand waving and stating someone or something did it just moves the question on how those beings arose and evolved as they've had to start from somewhere.
@@Axeman20 yes and no ... Time as we understand it didnt always exist .... It was created. Similar to thinking what created all the stuff in the big bang? Prior to that time as a part of space time didnt exist
Thats because this particular video, unlike his others, regretfully is pretty much hogwash.
@@HuFlungDung2 It's not impossible it just makes the odds of life forming from nonliving material far less likely. It's why I say those who shifted from "god created life" to "life is everywhere" are even worse off from where they started. Life most likely is incredibly rare as the universe wasn't made to make life, if anything it was made to make black holes. Life is incredibly complicated and fragile so even the life that does exist can be wiped out in only a day. Life rides the fine line in a universe full of chaos and destruction with a nature of unpredictability.
That being said life as itself isn't impossible to form naturally. Again our world is fairly rich in phosphorus compared to others and likely the other planets in the solar system are too though the others didn't stand a chance for life for other reasons. Complexity for life also isn't really an issue either as we've already found that basic amino acids form fairly easily on their own and bind together naturally. But the process of that forming life is on the scales of thousands of years so us ever watching new life form ourselves is not ever going to happen. Not to mention that even if we could it would die instantly to other life on this planet already as existing life is more evolved to instantly cause it to die off.
DNA also isn't as surprising either as while it looks complicated the acids can only form in specific patterns so you can't cause odd combinations without completely changing how it was made. Once life exists however the changes can be modified by the life itself by mutations and external pressures such as viruses injecting new DNA into life. Remember that viruses also likely predate actual life as they are far simpler in structure and function more simply.
Next on the Fermi paradox why intelligent life avoids areas contaminated by phosperous, since it prevents the evolution of sufficiently intelligent life to contact.....
I’m more and more convinced that the rare earth hypothesis is true and that humanity is probably the earliest formed intelligent life in the Milky Way.
It depends on your definition of intelligent, though. I definitely prefer the draw the line at technology or even language, since it would be hard to imagine advanced colonies or societies existing without both. And curiously, you don't really need to be very intelligent to use language or have technology. Many animals on earth arguably dabble in those things without being particularly intelligent by our standards. I would even argue that many people are a bit thick, yet they all use language and technology anyway. It is easy enough to imagine a super-intelligent alien jellyfish much more intelligent than us being stuck in the sea because of its anatomy, not for lack of brains. And you could also easily have language and intelligence without technology, particularly with aquatic species where harnessing basic things like fire would not be possible. And all told, aquatic species are the most likely, since evidence from earth indicates that it forms more easily and quickly there than in terrestrial settings, and is more protected from extinction too and so more likely to endure for a long time.
Someone apparently decided that all snow flakes are unique, although who investigated them all to ascertain this has never been made clear. But I see no reason why the same shouldn't be the case with planets, given the complexities of randomly generating something that large, melting it and then cooling it again with all the chemistry involved in that million-year process. Look closely at any of the planets in this solar system, even if highly dead, and they are all unique. Even Mercury, which might be the least spectacular at first glance. Hell, even Pluto is wildly fascinating just from the few images we got during the fly-by. And that is a tiny ex-planet. If anywhere should be boring, it's Pluto. And it isn't.
Anyway, life, wherever we find it, would inevitably be at the very end of a long chain of large, yet random events and the most unique thing of all present there, I would imagine. Like the outer edge of a snow crystal, to use that analogy again. I see absolutely no reason to believe that life can't be ubiquitous and at the same time unique. The same as other life only in the most general sense, the way we're the same as plants or insects. We are and we aren't, obviously.
We are in the first 10% of all intelligent life in the Universe, so if an Alien species is going to populate the Universe then it will be starting around now. It could well be happening in another galaxy already and we have yet to see the signs, but it seems inevitable to happen. Say if Earth is the only habitable planet in the whole of our Galaxy and on average there is one habitable planet in each galaxy, thats still 125 billion habitable planets, refine that because of phosphorus to 1% thats still 1.25 billion habitable planets or even 0.1% thats 125 million habitable planets. Refine that 125m for intelligent life by another 0.1%, thats 125,000 intelligent species potentially able to take over the Universe. Even if the elements are so low and habitable planets are so rare the sheer number in scale means there has to be more than just us.
@@politicallycorrectredskin796 there would never a superintelligent blob, if an animal doesn’t benefit from superintelligence, life won’t develop it’s intelligence since it will not give it an evolutionary advantage, why so you think Dolphins have been like smart since a long time but never conquered the earth, because a dolphin as smart as a human won’t benefit from it, they can’t do fire, nor melt metal, and definitely no electricity since if they developed that, they would fry
@@nutsbroker5687 I agree. But if it's an intelligent, alien jellyfish it clearly must have benefited it to be intelligent, right?
If I gave you all the data on octopuses and you knew nothing about them, you would probably expect them to be slow and dumb just based on related species like clams, starfish etc.
Yet they're pretty smart. I would even go so far as to say that they prove that we can't prove where exactly intelligence can develop.
@@politicallycorrectredskin796 yes, consciousness, language and technology... and a planet like earth and its solar system, an atmosphere with the right composition, pressure and temperature to sustain a flame “fire” to start his technology for heating, cooking, melting, smelting and a steam engine
It is amazing and gratifying that a question I asked about a year ago that was nixed by moderators made it as a complete episode. Phosphorus is indeed a significant problem for potential complex life out there, and something that could make galactic colonization a magnitude harder/slower.
I've suggested a couple of topics we hsvent seen. One is space travel and exploration by individuals or small groups in small ships, referring somewhat to the idea of pilgrims in wing commander without the silliness. The other is the idea of space colonisation by low tech people groups who ate not bound by modern rules of safety, akin to the Polynesians conquering the pacific ocean
Everything you need to colonize an airless moon can be found at home depot. @Gökmen ALTUNAŞ has videos on simple DIY tools for your initial machine shop. @This old Tony can show you how to use them.
I wonder how many tons of rare radioactive elements it takes to keep a core molten & producing a magnetosphere for millions of years, and if that is a tighter bottleneck than having phosphorus for life to use. (Rarer material, with an expiration date, and larger quantities needed)
I can't imagine why this was ever nixed I mean this has literally changed my whole view on the fermi paradox to the point of like basically answering it for me, not for absolutely sure mind you but as a great filter like wow
@@Bbq7272 that would be interesting but the distances are sooooo much more than back then, it would be like going the distance from the north to south pole if the earth was 100 times the size of the sun with nothing in between, like they could definitely try lol
Ohhh, we were lucky enough to get the inclusion of an addendum! The timing of the paper and the video was clearly perfect.
I guess it was, though I always hate tinkering with scripts once they're recorded, let alone already produced as a video and ready to air, thus making me probably the only person whose response to the discovery was to start cursing :) As I recall when the team was editing the addendum to the script one of them flagged a paragraph as "Tone: Grumpy"
@@isaacarthurSFIA I guess no one likes going back over a good job of work whence it is finished! Sorry it put you out, but thank you for the effort, was very interesting to here you give a more direct critique of the paper. Bit cheeky to ask you for even more content, but is that something you'd consider, doing a review series on interesting papers that fall within the SFIA remit? Just I think your approach to science explanation would really benefit that area of content...obviously I mean this as well as PLEASE continuing doing all the stuff you already do...so yeah, pretty rude of me to ask sorry, but is something I've wondered for a few years of watching your excellent work.
gl66no6hl600
Indeed :) he's damn good at that, there's a fair few video topics that line up well with late breaking studies.. its part of the reason I love this channel the way I do
@@isaacarthurSFIA lol well with all the hard work you put into these videos, I'm sure the last thing you want to do is go back and redo it >.< but hey that's a good analogy for science itself. Just as your finishing something... something else comes up forcing you to go back and redo parts, create new bits or even COMPLETELY redo the damned thing.
“Extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception.”
― Carl Sagan
@@danielattenborough8172
Dude you gotta stop taking that LSD
@@danielattenborough8172 lmao, not to be rude but that is all BS.
Daniel Attenborough i listened to it, all i found was some people LARPing, if you’re going to convince me that aliens exist and that we have met them before, you’re going to have to do better than what is essentially two men in a call together making a silly video.
@@danielattenborough8172 if only the thumbs down button worked properly like it did in the good old days before google bought out youtube and fucked it up ... :)
Btw I wonder who you think you're going to convince with that word salad ???
@@danielattenborough8172
Seriously Daniel that acid really f#*ks with your mind.
I didn't need to consider anything because your initial comment mentioned extra terrestrials being interviewed on RUclips.
But thanks for the laugh.
Remember Danny boy, 'just say no'
Actually, the 'other Isaac' (Asimov) sorta covered this in one of his longer articles 'explaining science', this one going into what natural bottlenecks there would be to a common S.F. theme: 'citified' planets. He looked at the relative abundance of various elements on Earth, trying to determine what the maximum population could be, based on that factor. It was a *fascinating* article because it had *never* occurred to me to wonder about that. Sure enough, he concluded that the tightest bottleneck, *by far,* was phosphorus. Toward the end he even briefly speculated what this might mean in regards to colonizing other planets; but he couldn't reach any conclusions, not even basic general ones, because *when* he wrote that (in the 60s, I believe), we knew almost nothing about elemental abundances (beyond hydrogen versus helium versus 'others') off Earth - and *especially* outside our Solar System!
Excellent episode. Yet another reason to pursue molten salt thorium reactors, phosphorous synthesis.
Fun fact: Morocco has the greatest concentration of phosphate ore on Earth, with greater commercially available deposits than the next 10 countries combined.
The ore isn't that difficult to process, but it does include washing the rock with acid, and the side effect is gypsum (phosphogypsum) with low level radioactivity. In the U.S. that requires remediation, piling the gypsum into huge covered 'stacks.'
That supply of easily accessible concentrated phosphorus is also running out. Moreover we are extremely wasteful with fertilizers made from phosphorus which mostly runs off into the oceans where it is the primary cause of agricultural runoff. In the future should humanity continue to be this wasteful we will soon run out and run into the situation where the most concentrated sources of phosphorus are landfills and cemeteries. After all there's phosphorus in them bones! Remember bone is primarily composed of calcium phosphate which seems to have originally evolved as an essential way to store phosphorus for later use, before they were converted into armor and later internalized to become our bones. This is why bone is so quick to be lost in low gravity phosphorus not needed to be wasted on structural support means more potential for growth! Plus that calcium is also important for triggering the firing of the action potentials which drive muscle cells and neurons but phosphorus is far more essential for all life since calcium can be swapped out for other metals where as phosphorus can't
It’s the Western Sahara which has the largest concentration of phosphate. Which is why morocco occupies it
@@Tgsva352 And I recollect the worlds longest conveyor belt to go along with it
@@Dragrath1 In the future, they'll think we're barbaric for farming outdoors rather than in a well-controlled environment.
@@robertsutton8894 Indeed
ruclips.net/video/67FzgaSWDDw/видео.html
This is the last addition to "Rare Earth" being the solution to the FP. The question is henceforth solved in my eyes. Both terrifying and illuminating as all deep scientific truths should be. Thanks for this Isaac.
Other than the word "solved" I agree. Be careful of the mindset that is so confident of an answer that it won't even consider evidence for other answers. But it certainly seems that the many reasons earth is so uniquely suitable for life (not least of which is the chemistry discussed here) is the reason we don't see it anywhere else.
We're infinitely-improbably lucky to have this planet.
@@zak7181 I really wish the average person could really take in this message. We need to respect and cherish the earth.
I rediscovered your channel during quarantine and my god it has been a lifesaver. Thank you very much for everything you do!
you are a sad, lonely man...I'm so sorry.
@@JonathanSchattke You must know how he feels.
@@wolfvale7863 nope. Never been there. Have a nice day.
@@JonathanSchattke I pity those in your life who *have* been "there" only to be met with your ego and disdain rather than compassion. It doesn't even matter if I've been there or not. What matters is you thought I was there, and rather than just ignoring it and scrolling away, actually took the effort to type something so utterly toxic.
@@darth.4996 Well spoken.
"The Phosphorus Wars", sounds like a good setting for an SF sequence!
Me: "This looks interesting. Title seems kinda clickbaitish though. Could phosphorus really be _that_ important?"
Isaac Arthur: * de-acronymizes ATP *
Me: "Oh."
Technically it's only an acronym if you pronounce it. If you just pronounce the individual letters, like in ATP, it's an initialism but is also often just referred to as an abbreviation (initialisms and acronyms are both types of abbreviation). So, regardless of whether you pronounce GIF with a hard G or, correctly, a soft G, as long as you aren't just spelling it out, it's an acronym, but DNA isn't (unless you're weird and pronounce it "dinna").
@@StarkRG I dinna like that kind a pedantry. 😜 (j/k, of course)
@@StarkRG how does one soothe a pedant?
"There, their, they're..."
All jokes aside, definitely appreciate the pedantics, as it is a relatively rare treat to learn such a new esoteric detail of the English language!
@@StarkRG it's pronounced gif!
@@StarkRG so a TLA, commonly spelled out as letters, is not an acronym?
Ugh. Dam. You've accidentally started me on a bout of existential dread...I had always assumed that alien invasions for a specific material were ludicrous, like what precious metal or material would be worth invading a planet for that already hosted life?
Now phosphorus...apparently that might actually be worth the effort considering it may be fundamental to all life in the universe, is incredibly rare to find on the crust of rocky planets and it may be the key to expanding a civilisation.
Oh dear.
I am sure that Arthur would say that it takes less effort to do starlifting or transmutation but who knows. I mean whipping out the life that live here is not the hard part. Just getting here. ;)
@@Cythil star lifting may be easier. I guess it all comes down to cost of travel. Will terraforming, harvesting/transiting/sequestering that and other essential materials be more cost effective than travelling to the arse end of the galaxy to invade this pale blue dot?
Though given how 2020 has gone, you may forgive my sense of impending doom.
I think lots of people make the mistake thinking that the earth is not worth invading because we don't have any raw materials there aren't already available everywhere in space. But what people forget is that we have our whole ecosystem. We are incredibly valuable for any alien species just as a zoo. It takes super long time to terraform a planet and we have a rich ecosystem ready to go on our planet. For any high level alien civilization nothing is more valuable than time and the condition of our world is such that a lot of time has gone into making it what it is. And one can make earth into something else a lot quicker than it takes time to do the same to a planet like mars.
Earth is more valuable than thousand space ore mines and gadget factories combined. Ironically I think our tech and raw materials are worthless. The things we measure us by would be worthless for any space civilization. But our planet and its ecosystem, literally priceless.
@@Cythil Well not 'less effort', starlifitng is a massive task, but the star would have a ton more of the stuff at least. :)
@Scott Johnstone very true genetic material is a, seemingly, very scarce resource on a universal scale from what wr have observed. Infact intelligence is, pound for pound, the absolute rarest thing we've quantified in the universe. Matter that thinks, plans and creates tools for its self organisation has to be the rarest material in a universe where we have a fermi paradox by definition.
i would honestly rather the answer to the fermi paradox be phosphorus over some crazy supernova storm, since a phosphorus answer is far less deadly to our existence in the universe than crazy supernova storms or reapers from mass effect, as it’s a bit easier to control for
Also could be the great filter. The great filter just being the question “do you have enough phosphorus?”
Interstellar travel may be impossible. That can be a solution to the fermi paradox.
The Fermi paradox is climate change or some analog to it at least.
@@philipm3173 Climate change may be a component, but that alone fails to meet the requirements.
@@philipm3173 Does consensus science even say climate change is an existential threat to _humans?_ News to me.
I have to say, however accurate this solution to the Fermi Paradox is, "running out of LEGOs" is kinda anticlimactic
Yet somehow, it seems like a better solution than something more exotic and it also solves the important question of "Why aren't there any Type 3 and above civilizations?" which is one of the most unnerving mysteries of the Fermi Paradox.
Yeah but by Ocam's razer that makes it the most likely as the simplest is usually the right answer. It feels pitifully weak but then again our main issue is seeing no intelligent life and this is a good answer to it. If the main element of life is rare and intelligence is hard to develop then it makes sense to see basically nothing. Plus if it is phosphorus then where we are in the galaxy also makes sense as too far out in the galaxy and you'd have no phosphorus while too far in you have the chaotic nature of the dense central galaxy with more super novas, more black holes, and higher odds of a gamma ray burst. It really is the perfect storm solution we can think of.
But hey, if it is true, we may be one of the first intelligent life forms in the galaxy. Better get ourselves setup better as we get to set the rules, if we can live long enough to get out to the galaxy.
@@Vaprous ... Type 3 will be a handful of "normal" organisms with and Trillions man population of artificial organisms to to most of the work.
I’d have to say I prefer it to “it’s because we’re all gonna die”
but we're not msm, we look for truth, not an extravagant story
Hi Isaac, this is the first video of yours that I've watched, and I have to say: I'm hooked! You explained ATP/ADP better in this video than any one of my professors in the last four years of my biology degree. Keep up the good work, I'll be watching!
So you’re saying, we might have giant tanker-ships of Gatorade running about the Galaxy
no, Brawndo, it has electrolytes, or some $#@#
Of course, it's what plants crave
So, when the aliens come, it is not for harvesting water or us, but our phosphorus?
"There is no evidence that aliens exist. Don't believe conspiracy theories." -- the secretly ruling aliens
:)
@@jerrysstories711 - I agree, I think we are alone in the universe, but when we begin to colonize the universe, we must remember to bring phosphorus with us
Nope, it's for something even more precious than phosphorus. Crack cocaine.
@@alexandernorman5337 - yes, actually, in the next video Issac Artur will cover how the element crack cocaine trumps phosphorus in importance
So, lets list the known indications of life on Venus. Coexisting sulfur dioxyde and hydrogen sulphide in the atmosphere, a layer containing free chlorine gas just under the main cloud deck, a mysterious ultraviolet absorbing substance in the clouds themselves, and now phosphine gas. I'd say the case for some sort of life existing on Venus is getting better all the time.
Definitely time to start a maned mission to the planet and bring them back before the decade ends!!!
A “maned” mission? Are you suggesting they send horses?
@@stevenmqcueen7576 or better yet, lions!!! hehehe - nice catch!! It was a typo I didn't catch before posting - still, it looks funny :D
oh IK I'm late but in case you guys didn't learn it yet there's no phosphine
Ill list all the known indicators of life on venus.
0)
Done.
Dude, your analysis goes so deep and so well researched. I’m in awe.
it's not research, it's guess work, and it's crap
@@psycronizer explain why you think that.
Not really at all. issac's lack of grasp on chemistry really comes through on this video.
@@daveanderson718 i was more distracted by the elmer fudd voice style.
I was just trying to explain this topic to someone just yesterday and today this video appeared on my Isaac Aurther list, Perfect timing as now I can send them a link to this video today which explains it much better than I ever could, I always look forward to everything you have to say and I rewatch your videos numerous times, Thank you for producing such great content and all the hard work you put into them, Keep up the good work
With all of the things that lower the odds for life to form and or succeed it's seems to be a MIRACLE that we are here at all.
ATP, ADP and AMP it's starting to feel like my freshmen science class again.
"I am just a child who has never grown up. I still keep asking these 'how' and 'why' questions. Occasionally, I find an answer."
― Stephen Hawking
The smartest people are people who never stop questioning everything.
Coffee: Made
Breakfast: Prepared
SFIA: *ON*
The actual missing chemical is ... coffee, this is why there isn't any intelligent aliens.
@@RemusKingOfRome There's coffee in that Nebula!
@@RemusKingOfRome I remember back in college my Chem professor - who amusingly was the grandson of Satyendra Bose of Bose-Einstein Condensate - explained the process of decaffeinating coffee beans, I said at the time that it was when I first realized science could be used for evil :)
It's always night time when Isaac posts a video, so I lie on my bed, turn off the lights, and SFIA on
@@isaacarthurSFIA grandson of SN Bose? Wow!
That was one of the best 30 minutes I've spent in a long time. Thank you.
Maybe we are the First. The Elders. The Progenitors. The Uplifters.
Our place in the galaxy does make it possible. It's where phosphorus would form quicker than say the rim but not too fast where other heavy elements make life harder or like in the center of the galaxy, too chaotic for life to be sustained to intelligence. We may be the first intelligent life in the galaxy as we are in just the right place in the galaxy. The perfect answer to the fermi paradox. Downside is that naturally we don't want to view ourselves as in a significant place so we don't acknowledge it. But it very much could be true.
Maybe we're babies, brats, fools....
@@paulbolton4929 "We;re babies" is the default assumption in most discussions and stories I've seen. Case in point: The Day the Earth Stood Still. But that's only an early, popular example.
We are baby birds chirping loudly in a dark forest. Asking ourselves... why is everyone else being so quiet? ...
We may be the first but are we the only? Maybe we are among the first but there are others or maybe we are alone
One minute into the video, over sixty likes and twenty five comments.
Those time travelling spacey dudes take some beating.
Probably Patreon
@@justicar5 nay!!! Its like the guy with the hoodie and the old lady with the cell phone in the old pictures. The ONLY acceptable solution is time travel, all else is heresy!!!
@@fuknrowdy It has been suggested they were 1 and the same
kinda dumb lol
In regards to the Fermi paradox. Regardless of what happens, we should always strive to be the best we can be. All our actions will either be those of the oldest race in the universe, or our image in the minds of those older than us.
Oh, well. Too late.
@No One Trying not to be a troll. Sorry. I was thinking more like cynic.
I’ve been listening to this channel nightly, as I fall asleep. It does wonders to take my mind off of daily concerns and adds color to my dreaming. Admittedly, I fall asleep often, but that just means I get to rewatch episodes! ❤️
I've watched almost every episode on this channel, and this is one of the top 3. The other two are Black Hole Farming and Iron Stars, btw.
This one has me thinking more than most episodes and I watch these to start thinking...
15:30 I'm no professor, but the second life form on earth doesn't need Oxygen to breath, even if it has oxygen. It's a Sulfur found in extremophiles -- Sulfur, Carbon, Hydrogen and some oxygen. Look up extremophiles. There are two dealing with sulfur. Cool Stuff
This is probably the best channel on all things science/science fiction on all of RUclips. Great episode Isaac! I hope you're staying safe in these turbulent times :)
Wow. I didn't know phosphorous was so rare! Also, the electron transport chain that creates ATP and ADP are among the most complex of our cellular systems. It is amazing to see an animation of how Mitochondria create ATP in cells complete with a very intricate and complex set of nano-machines to do it with. Also I guess in the future everyone dresses like dairy cattle?
My birthday, just got up! watching Isaac Author, got a piece of good pound cake, glass of milk ready to go
Happy Birthday Altha!
Happy birthday 🎂
Ahh, coming to this channel is like taking a hot bath for the mind. I love how many different facets of the Fermi paradox you've looked into, whereas even other science channels give a brief overview
Hey, It's Barry Kripkee (Bawwy Kwipkee)!... I'm so sorry, I had to. But really, great vid. You make great content, keep it up man :)
Thank you so much for mentioning the potential (and more likely) abiotic sources for phosphine. The media ran wild with that story and the fact is "clouds of phosphine" actually means a few parts per billion in the upper atmosphere.
wow how do e even see something like that
So if I want more heavy elements, I just get two Neutron stars an bang them together like a caveman banging rocks together, got it.
But if you want it to happen faster you would need to tap on its momentum and slow their rotation a lot. And when it explode you don't want to be around...
“We'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent lifeforms everywhere and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Then suddenly, strange matter
@@justsomeguynamedduren Yikes that would suck. Unless strange matter isn't as contagious as we think it might be converting normal matter into an Einstein condescend. Remember that strange matter could always be part of dark matter as well as we really know nothing about strange matter.
Yes, but wear safety glasses.
Safety first!
This is the best episode so far, Isaac!
Thank you for the documentarys
Hi :o OMG I found you here!! I’m your fan Vasile Iuga ♥️
please can you let me know how to contact you..
P.S I love you
@@Medicus_Asur Thank you, a joy to see you guys!
@@madalinam5418 Well, this escalated quickly, LOL. Love you too!
Bones buffer the phosphate levels in your body. Apatite...CaPO4...the stuff of life.
Thanks for the Jerry Guern shoutout. I bought his book, “No Moon To Pray To” after listening to some of the short stories on his RUclips channel, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope to see him gain more recognition as an author in the future.
OMG THANK YOU for introducing us to Jerry's Stories!
If anyone reading this hasn't checked them out yet, go do it now. Trust me. You will not regret it. Well, unless you are really short on time, that is. You are going to be there for quite a while once you start listening.
I have a theory: the emergence of alien civilizations should follow the natural distribution, meaning very few in the beginning and the rate slowly rising. The first civilization to ever appear should have the whole galaxy for itself for a very long time, possibly long enough to completely colonize it before anyone else manages to create their own civilization. If that's the case, then the first civilization is likely to also be the last. Considering that we exist, it's reasonable to presume that we are that first civilization in the Milky Way.
That assumes we become a galaxy spanning species.
There could be millions at our level of civilisation.
But hardly any more advanced ones as they wipe themselves out or reach some other extinction event.
Being the first born is by far the most appealing solution for me.
I'd rather not get eliminated by an ancient civilization for my phosphorous
There is an SFIA episode called "Fermi Paradox: Firstborn" on exactly this topic.
Jerry's Stories yeah :/ I may have already watched just about every SFIA episode.
Early alien civilizations - if there were any in the universe - never left their homeworld. We are blessed in that our solar system is the child of a whole series of supernova events. Civilizations which began billions of years ago would not have that advantage. So they would have less heavy elements available to them. You can't industrialize a planet when iron and copper is as scarce as gold is for us.
The aliens invade earth for our pesticides and gun powder, the very things we use to beat them.
You should make a movie where humans beat off aliens by spraying a can of Raid in their face.
So, telling them to "Eat Hot Lead" is only half the solution?
It would be better to make friends at that point, because we'd use it to fight them, making our phosphorous harder to get.
if an alien intelligence, even as close by as Jupiter, could build up an invading armada, their tech would crush us. For alien invaders who could travel light years from nearby star systems, (even if they do not have anything faster than light) would consider our military tech closer to spears and arrows than their own. Consider the amount of money and the amount of effort for us to get primitive probe to Mars. And we haven't even dared to send another one to Venus. Tech to build an invasion force is miles ahead of what we can do. Plus, as SFIA has pointed out at times, all spaceships are themselves weapons. An "interstellar missile" is enough to wipe us all out, no resistance possible. Any and all stories about modern Earthlings putting up any resistance to aliens is totally ridiculous. We would be less significant than insects. Just thought I'd share these warm fuzzy thoughts.
Cuvtixo D I would suspect them to just hurl an asteroid at us because it’s far more efficient than coming here themselves. If their goal is to just destroy us then it wouldn’t make sense for them to come.
“I'm sure the universe is full of intelligent life. It's just been too intelligent to come here.”
― Arthur C. Clarke
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
@@robertanderson5092 have you done three impossible things before breakfast?
For life to rise on Earth, it required hundreds of "Goldilocks" zones, from core size to elemental concentrations to star size to having a right sized moon to the amount of radiation in the local area of space..
These are incredible probabilities to come together in one place.
Life is probably very rare and one planet had to be first, it could very well be us.
I totally agree. I will make a distinction between "any form of life" and "at equal or greater intelligence as humans" But i feel getting any form of life is only the start of the long chain of minute chance events that led to our level of civilisation.
@@barryschalkwijk9388 That's why i think that we are among the first, the universe has just "cooked" long enough within the last few billion years for life to arise.
The universe is still relatively young 14 or so billion years and the first several were heavy element scarce and radiation hell.
So happy I just discovered this channel!
The Phosphorus analysis is amazing.
As always you rock dude! Found you on Event Horizon years ago and never looked back :)
What's "event horizon"? Ive been listening to him on here for years and I got no clue man.
@@stapuft type 'event horizon' into RUclips youll find it. Its another channel but he's a scientist that deals with interviews and discusses subjects SLIGHTLY more real than these. These are great but often er on the side of sci fi sometimes. :) Event Horizon is scientific interview over a paper or subject. THIS GUY was an awesome guest on several occasions.
@@TheVRSofa sounds awesome, thanks.
Oh my god he liked my post eeeeeee!
Love you bro
@Lem Sted its true. But if k said sear h his name he might not come up haha. I miss "one universe at a time"
1:47 EMPTY AND WASTED
2:48 The Phosphorus needed (ATP)
4:24 DNA chains are Phosphates
5:48 _The Phosphate Problem_ 8:32
6:42 Collision of Neutron Stars generate heavier elements (more than 40 protons)
- It is Rare - It is unevenly distributed
9:29 Phosphide is not Phosphate
10:30 6 Key Elements for Lfie
• O, C, H, N, Ca, P
12:44 How did Earth get Phosphorous?
14:01 *Carbonate Rich Lakes*
15:00 Part 1 Summary
16:13/16:45
17:13 We are on a Rare planet with a Rare element
18:11 Time is always at play
This makes me feel better about living in phosphorus poor Australia, at least most of the galaxy is with us.
I watch you nightly man. I hope you have more than six more years of this left in you! You're appreciated sir!
if that's true, then humanity has a responsiblity to spread life, and making phosphorus is a big deal. the mantel of responsibility.
Mantle*
Humanity has a responsibility of taking care of this planet first. It has already spread too much here.
@@doublem1354 thanks for the correction.
@@bogtrotter5110 I don't disagree, we should protect life on earth. yet why the need for emphasis on such a point, if you are to spread life you have to make sure your source is taken cared of, who expands a garden by neglecting what was there before. Also why do you think humanity has spread too far already?
@@bogtrotter5110 I doubt we'll be able to protect this planet if we don't expand into space. Humans are stupid and decadent creatures. Space colonization is our only hope.
Can we also expect an episode about Elerium 115 or something less fantastic, like Island of Stability? I like topics about elements.
That might need a D in front of it.
@@robertsutton8894 Scientific speculation is the first step of scientific discovery, most times that speculation will be incorrect. The most foolish human being that impeded scientific development were the naysayers from religion and narrow minded thinking of the individuals.
Perhaps a scientific video based on Element 115 or ununpentium would be a fantastic subject for a science video/science fiction video, and it may use scientific investigation and evidence that is useful to our enquiring FRIENDS.
@@ghostlyphantasm2352 Don't forget that religious orders were the founders of many of our centers for higher learning and much of our early scientists were clergy men
@@medinasmadre5391 Yeah, you are completely right. IN MY DEFENCE however, I DID say NAYSAYERS, and not specifically religious leaders.
@@medinasmadre5391 PS also I am buddhist! lol
Peak phosphorus, but universe wide? lol
No guano islands in the universe to raid?
Don't worry. Our society can keep growing via heavy automation. We just have to worry about being replaced by the machines, though some people welcome that kind of thing.
Quiet, you mook! They'll get the bright idea of taxing us all for it! Then you'll be sorry.
Did you even watch the video, Viktor?
Carbon and Phosphorous - A "match" made in heaven.
and...
Oh Venus, you are a tease. If we find life there:
-From where did is come?
-If from Venus herself that still says bugger-all about life in the wider universe
-We will never know what wonders you may have harbored as recently as 500 million years ago.
PS
Thank you for another excellent episode.
My gut, it says to me.
We see no one because no one is there to see.
By why no one among all these wonders immense?
Maybe Phosphorous is the key.
I guess gold and other platinum group elements are also created during the collision of two neutron stars. Having them on Earth is a clear indication that we are indeed very lucky.
22:00 Is it possible to see phosphorus in the light spectrum of stars?
@R Bartram thanks, that's an interesting article with APOGEE scanning for new ones, "Phosphorus is extremely difficult to measure in stellar spectra because its lines are inherently weak and are only available in the near-IR or UV spectral ranges, which very few high-resolution spectrographs can actually cover."
It seems this article attributes phosphorus to supernova instead of neutron star collision as this video suggested.
Maybe we'll soon find more regions of the galaxy that can support life using APOGEE's techniques of scanning for phosphorus.
@R Bartram on a more local scale, I think there could be a lot of chemical harvesting done at rivers before they enter the sea. Think of all the phosphorus leeching out of our fertile lands.
@@TheRainHarvester Looking it up yes it seems to be listed as a core collapse supernovae product produced in trace amounts. It is the Neutron rich elements that come from Neutron stars. However this interestingly appears to be a bit simplistic Specifically Phosphorus appears to be a product of a star undergoing the oxygen burning phase meaning only stars massive enough to undergo core collapse so rather than the supernovae itself it is the stellar progenitors which are likely the source of the element. Interestingly the element is quite inhomogenous with the appearance of both phosphorus poor stars and old phosphorus rich but otherwise metal poor stars.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7403594/
Looking at the literature phosphorus is probably a product of a rare type of massive star with high rotation rates with most of the element ending up concentrated within the vicinity of the progenetor star with rotationally induced mixing. High rotation rates in massive late stage evolution stars notably is though to be a driving factor in the production of gamma ray burst events which are notably very directional in most of their energy dispersal (i.e. low radial velocity component extremely relativistic axial component) so I might hypothesize that the poor distribution could be a consequence of little phosphorus escaping its birthplace only polluting the stars forming in its vicinity.
As a thought might stars like the Sun form only in the vicinity of a massive dying Wolf Rayet star? It is a stretch but since the solar system and hence the Sun shows evidence of having formed close enough to a Wolf Rayet star in order to be strongly enriched in a rare short lived isotope of aluminum with a short half life based on evidence for it having been present in significant amounts among the material that formed protoplanets in the early years of the solar system. If such a star was aligned in death to point perpendicular between the line connecting it and the Sun's part of the protosolar nebula... This hypothetical scenario could account for both factors and would potentially have resulted in a nonuniform enhancement of the Sun's birth cluster. Of course it is also possible that stars like the Sun could form as a second generation star formed from the material that composed a phosphorus enriched stellar neighbor to such an event. Interesting it seems the story behind phosphorus is far more complex than I anticipated which in hindsight makes perfect sense.
Overall phosphorus does come in small amounts from normal supernova but that material gets well distributed and thus is very low in concentration. Phosphorus enrichment is possible but you need a far more extreme star forming environment like what occurred much earlier in the universe from the same events most capable of sterilizing any prospective planets.
Edit: typo corrected mush->much
@@Dragrath1 very interesting! Thank you! Time to update the Drake equation!
@@TheRainHarvester Yeah it is interesting phosphorus coming from the very massive stars which formed more commonly in the early universe is an interesting wrinkle which likely means there will be an optimal galactic peak phosphorus when general metallicity best fits with the timing of more exotic element specific nucleosynthesis products that are responsible for producing most of elements which are otherwise rarely produced in nature.
As an interesting related note Calcium is another of those elements which is even more strongly associated with Calcium rich supernovae events.
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200805102020.htm
Given the elements critical role in the planets carbon cycle and its importance for complex biology as the main ion used for the action potential firing of neurons and muscle cells though unlike phosphorus there are potential substitutes for calcium life seems to preferentially prefer Calcium and sodium for action potential firing. It might be quite possible that complex life is most likely to emerge late in the stelliferous era as the planet sterilizing destructive events drop off in frequency but still occur so as to seed essential elements for life.
Phosphorus depending primarily on rare reactions during oxygen burning is an interesting quirk as while oxygen is quite common accounting for 1% of all elements in the universe it is notoriously hard to fuse except as part of the secondary alpha chain process which gives rise to a significant number of other life critical elements.
This is perhaps an example of a fine tuning parameter as were oxygen fusion easier stars could more readily reach silicon core fusion which produces iron and thus results in a core collapse supernovae occurring much sooner at far lower stellar masses. This makes phosphorus rare but without it there wouldn't be much of a wide array of elements sulfur another of the essential elements for life and stars probably wouldn't last long enough before collapsing in core collapse supernovae. If true this suggests the drake equation will likely have a strong peak time dependence.
Without sulfur as an intermediary respiratory gas for driving biochemistry oxygen based photosynthesis and much later aerobic respiration could probably never have evolved in the first place.
A key point often missed discussing life on Earth is that a lot if not the majority of anaerobic life tends to use metal ions dissolved in water for respiration.
Oxygen based photosynthesis seems to have likely evolved perhaps as a means to compensate for hydrogen sulfide scarcity which most other photosynthetic bacteria use as their hydrogen donar to fix carbon. Oxygen was a toxic byproduct which they likely evolved tolerance for giving the the machinery to cope with oxygen enabling a similar reaction swap to trade sulfur for oxygen in respiration. As the respiratory yield is based off the energy released that the organism didn't spend trying to break the chemical bond the stronger the respiratory reagents energy potential. Oxyegn as the second most electronegative element that doesn't already have a full valence shell.
Note technically Helium(I) and Neon(I) where they are missing an electron are more electronegative. Florine is the only reactive element that is more reactive than oxygen but it only needs one electron rather than two giving it less complex chemistry which coupled with Florine not being a common element unlike oxygen makes it a harder target to utilize). TDLR without sulfur life on Earth could never have developed the ability to metabolically utilize oxygen at least not by the path biology on Earth took.
This sulfur comes at the cost of phosphorus in terms of how nuclear reactions unfold since oxygen is hard to fuse temperature wise. It is an interesting thing I hadn't considered before.
That periodic table is super cool.
There it is...
Great filter 1: Phosphorus scarcity
Great filter 2: Cyclical extinctions
Great filter 3: Cognito Hazard: Non-self Governemnt
Hi, Isaac! I know that this is a long time late, but I did some back of the napkin calculations that pertain to this. Using the astromonomical P:H ratio of 10^5.5:10^12, we can assume there's roughly 6.3x10^13 kg of P in our system, the vast majority of which is in the sun.
Assuming we get quite efficient with our agriculture [If youre curious I can send the assumptions Im calculating with] and can survive on fewer calories in the future (cause gene editing?) just factoring in farmland and humans, and no other organisms, the absolute max carrying capacity of our system seems to be in the septillions range, with the farmland reqired massing in around 1 lunar mass. Factoring in other ecosystems, Id guesstimate this figure is realistically in the low quintillions or high quadrillions.
Your accent is so nice man, i genuinely love listening to how you annunciate
This is fascinating. How did this element become so concentrated here? Where the need for such concentration is the difference between life and no possible life.
All elements are created in stars. So a certain type of star that produced phosphorus died nearby.
Atomic number 15 so star produced. Our sun is a second gen so likely candidates for life would be second gen solitary stars as well. It's funny, the phosphorus problem never occurred to me since I didn't realize it was so rare. But as soon as he started talking I immediately thought, yeah ATP then went OMG THE KREBS CYCLE. High schooler literally drink pounds of creatine for athletics, what would aliens think of that kind of flex?
Not exactly fermi paradox related, but- it's rather strange that phosphourus was first found while searching for the philosophers stone, a mythical item used in the elixer of immortality. even though I'm not very supersticious, it kind of really makes me wonder if there's a connection there since it's such a mandatory component of human life
I have a doubt about Arsenic, it is an element which could be used instead of phosphorus theoretically
well there are some bacteria that can use arsenate instead of phosphate. But that is partially substituting for 1 main function. Arsenic is more rare then Phosphorous and that fact no life uses sat the more common sulfate for membranes means it can't be.
Isaac Arthur is such an amazing, incredible & inspiring human being, that despite having a disability of being deaf he overcame it & made his success more than 99.99999% of people by using something that is related to his disability: Speach.
I'm so happy for him & proud of him that it makes me want to cry.
I'm so happy for him that he's outdone me by leaps & bounds.
Thank goodness for subtitles.
I wonder if there's another temperature at which a chemistry similar to ours (solids, liquids, gases, a solvent, and a particular component that makes tons of varieties) would be common. For example much colder (liquid hydrocarbons as the solvent) or much hotter like on Hot Jupiter planets.
Is it possible for us to mass-produce these rare and heavy elements in the future? Some kind of futuristic alchemy.
I mean, you can build any element with a particle accelerator. With enough energy you can definitely produce a LOT of one particular element.
Particle Accelerators and Fusion can both produce heavier elements but depending on how technology develops, it might end up being Easier to just mine it
Covered at 23:40
I'm currently dreaming up a design for a breeder reactor that can make phosphorus from silicon, as mentioned in the video. it would be expensive and probably make uranium into a hot commodity too (the thorium fuel cycle is neutron poor, not a good candidate)
ATP was the first thing on my mind when I saw the title.
This is the only Venus life-skeptical science channel I've run across so far. Nice to hear the other side.
I always thought one of Adams' weaknesses was the fact that H2G2 doesn't have a very good storyline, it's just a rambling adventure (my favorite). Dirk Gently dispels that myth though. It's an incredibly complex story with multiple storylines that dance around each other and only connect at the end. Worth the listen for sure!
In the future look out for the phosphorus stealing space pirates!
This can potentially make a rather compelling case for the need to research better atomic transmutations before stellar exploration honestly.
I think it is likely that some of our nearest stars should also contain decent amounts of phosphorus as many of them should share materials from some of the same supernova and stellar collisions which helped to generate our solar system. Though by the time we ever get to stellar exploration it is likely that the atomic transmutation toolkit should already be fairly developed.
@@nolan4339 Stars get scattered around the galaxy over time. None of our current neighbors were anywhere near our star when it was born.
Some stars do travel together after forming from single nebula, but I think our star is alone now
I was thinking about this for a good chuck of the video.
Don't forget that the new Bobiverse book is out now by Dennis E. Taylor. :-)
"What do you want, food? It's not your time... yet!"
Most feared 1st contact answer throughout the universe. 😋
The year is 30XX, the United Planets is in a diplomatic meeting with a recent arrival on the galactic stage. A casual conversation with the ambassador reveals that this alien race has a planet rich in phosphorous reserves.
Humanity took it upon themselves to bring freedom to this new species.
Great Video Isaac. I really enjoyed and learned a bit. Also thanks for the tip about Jerry. Listed to the one story and subscribed I'll be checking them all out in time.
Also self-replicating machines don't need phosphate^^
Who could've thought that aliens will raid Earth for guano
Excellent episode
Thank you for a frank and eye opening discussion about phosphorus. Very interesting. Never thought that would be humanity's shackles.
I really appreciate focused, specific episodes like this one.
The animations in this video are ‘jerky’
Every second or two a frame is missing and the image jumps. I didn’t notice it at first, but now I do it’s really annoying.
So... perhaps planetary wars over resources aren't so far-fetched after all. Just over access to phosphorus... or at least easily-accessible sources of phosphorus
This guy sounds like Barry Kripke from the Big Bang Theory. One of Sheldon’s nemesis’s
Nailed it!
I love your videos on the Foomi paradox.
I never knew phosphorus was so rare. Great video Issac😍
Now, isn't Venus' "Day" longer than its "Year", i.e. it takes longer to rotate on its own axis than to go round the sun? & doesn't Venus rotate the opposite way to all other planets (incl. our Earth)? How'd these factors affect what life may form on Venus, or if at all?
There's an alien invasion motive...to get our phosphorus...😁 and a reason to eat us...😁
EEP!
Soylent green is people XD
Hope for machine civilizations their lack of a dependence on phosphorus means they will have less need to come after us. Silicon and carbon are quite abundant and many alkali, alkaline earth, transition elements(d block elements) and rare Earths (f block elements) can be substituted with each other chemically. Galactic niche partitioning may come to the rescue! :)
@@Dragrath1 that is a interesting point. If biological life only needs to live long enough to become a machine then there is very little point to leave your home system for a very long time.
This answer to the Fermi Paradox is the most depressing 😕
sounds like the closest answer to the Fermi Paradox that you've given us so far! (Though obviously there could be a combination of factors, as you mentioned.)
It was this episode that convinced me that we're unlikely to find anywhere else with life in our galaxy and perhaps intelligence anywhere ever. If life has all these other things against it, as detailed in many other IA videos, and requires a vanishingly rare element as well, we might as well forget it. We're it. The Universe is ours if we can but keep out hands off each other's throats.