One quibble: Einstein specifically rejected the label 'atheist" though he said he was ok with "agnostic". Lincoln's spirituality was complex. Otherwise, great video.
There is an aspect of morality that rarely gets mentioned--namely, that morality also comes from the emotional connection we feel with others called "compassion."
2) I was a Christian for 20 years and my parents sent me to Christian schools since kindergarten. I began to question my faith as I grew older and I turned to my Bible for answers. Becoming more familiar with biblical content resulted in my apostasy. Subsequent conversations with my parents made them question their faith so much that they stopped attending church. Religious beliefs fail miserably when subjected to critical scrutiny.
"Just check out some books in the library, or, even better, ask God Himself." 1) I was a Christian for 20 years and my parents sent me to Christian schools since kindergarten. I began to question my faith as I grew older and I turned to my Bible for answers...which resulted in my apostasy. Subsequent conversations with my parents made them question their faith so much that they stopped attending church. Religious beliefs fail miserably when subjected to critical scrutiny.
As a person from Sweden, I've visited the USA, and some of the reactions I got when people asked me about my religion(and I said that I was an atheist) was just awesome, I remember two of them in particular. 1, "ok... (long paus)... I can respect that" and then the woman stopped her 2 hour attempt to have a conversation with me. 2, "Oh, okay, but don't tell our oldest son about it, he's born again and really fanatical and would probably not take it so good."
"At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government. This was a deed of immeasurable significance for the reputation of the new government abroad." Cardinal Faulhaber (1937)
@2:15 we find a version of Aunt Martha's Dictum "Morality is doing what is right, even when no one is looking." Many, many, many immoral acts have been done in religion's name. None in the name of atheism (even though performed by atheists, that is not the reason.@ 3:20 @5:20)
Nice- well done... I also like the saying: "most are atheists when it comes to someone else's conception of god" and "religion is arrogance masquerading as humility (with a victim mentality)"
@Timmay123456789 As I said, "altruism" means many things. I was referring to "compassion" in a very specific way, as opposed (for example) to good manners or a sympathy with friends who're experiencing something you yourself have known, a philosophical belief in collective action, etc.
Also, ancient myths can seem ridiculous at times, but if you think about it, they didn't have bad reasons for believing. Everything they knew suggested that there was indeed a Thor and Zeus. And even if a belief turns out to be untrue, that doesn't mean that your faith in it was worthless. It is hard to defend the Greek and Roman Gods, as most of their texts were admitted to be pure storytelling, but other holy texts advocate ways of living to make your life better.
to 2. I completely agree. Atheists can be mislead by a number of stupid pseudo science and stupid ideologies that have no relation to religion. I've seen this happen too many times in the realm of the hyper paranoid, where people conjure ridiculous theories to justify the invasion of privacy and even injury to another. Anyway, since religion proselytizes the poor and the insecure, who'll have a higher chance to be desperate enough to commit a crime, I'd say you're right.
I love the religious leaders in the last picture. They get to experience a political insight and worldly involvement in their intellectual capacity to speak many languages and know culture.
@Mariomaniac37 Not at all. Einstein is an on record atheist. That is to say that he came out and stated that he was openly, so as to clarify the misunderstanding that he was using the word god as anything but a figurative term.
I don't want to be nitpicky, FFreeThinker, but in a conversation with a creationist, it was pointed out to me that piranha do indeed attack one another, sometimes even kill one another, in captivity and in the wild. It's not their regular mode of activity, true, but they do it out of dominance and to kill off or oust their weak members. This of course, doesn't change the points you're making and is specific just to your (and Thunderf00t's) example.
@Amarkcalledme I've always been into philosophy myself, and while dualism is enticing and poetic, it's been effectively disproven by modern neuroscience (past couple hundred years or so). Take the lesion method; when certain parts of the brain are damaged or removed, it results in a very specific type of deficit. Phineas Gage is probably the most famous example, suffering an extreme personality change after losing part of his frontal lobe. You should read more on neuroscience, you'll enjoy it.
@mattghtpa There is a huge difference between questioning the validity of a religion and supporting the Constitutional rights of the people who practice a religion.
@Knr911 Not out of love for animals (even if he, indeed, loved dogs) but because he thought it was a healthy regime and to control over his weight. His niece's death disturbed him to the point he was more preoccupied by his own health and he decided to adopt a stricter vegetarian regime. No relation with animal rights or love for animals. He may have done some exceptions like eating sausages sometimes, but his personal preference for a vegetarian diet is testfied.
@NoMoreMasters - I wasn't talking about morals, I was rebutting your claim. Hitler in (transcript) said: "But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian." and "I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat." Joseph Goebbels diary said; "He believes more than ever that meat-eating is harmful to humanity." General and close friend Léon Degrelle wrote: ""He could not bear to eat meat, because it meant the death of a living creature"
@PSNBloodraid My argument lends to the fact that although we share some of the basic similarities, including many of our genes, our techonology and culture makes us so undeniably different in our behaviors and in the ways that we live that we are scarcely comparable with other primates (who for the most part usually mull around in the jungle foraging for food and finding dry places to sleep.)
Mine. (why did the rest get cut off?) I'm also not going to post any comments against you. (yeah, I say that now) I will, however, stick around a watch this beautiful debate between atheism and theism blossom, grow old, and rot. (although I doubt that will happen). P.S. You defend yourself pretty well. The best I've heard in a long time.
@DrMilgram Athiest myself, but had to reply. Not all religions is about believing in a god, Buddhism, whichis about believing in yourself. That you can become a "greater" being, by meditating, through observing their surroundings, by following a path you think is the best, etc. I'm not one to know much about it, never realy read into it, but got a friend that is a buddhist. Wiki it and maybe it makes up for a nice read.
@NoMoreMasters "Hitler was NOT a vegetarian. He loved eating sausages." A priest saw the lumberjack eating sausage in a pub on a Friday during Lent. He chastized him and told his penance would be to bring a load of wood to the church. The next day, the lumberjack dumped a load of sawdust in the driveway. He said, "If sausage is meat, then sawdust is wood!"
@SeveredFootLoki it's an artificial changing world that we create. We did not create the world that we evolved from (who knows what did if you are an atheist or who cares for that matter lol) but we had to adapt to it. Now we feel that it is necessary to put pressure on ourselves and to compete and wage wars to advance technology. It's not about survival it's about pushing limits. Survival is the benchmark but not the test.
@TheStuhero: I was drawing a subtext from what your comment; I acknowledged that I could be barking up the wrong tree: "Secular Humanist Agnostic" sounds (IMFAO) like an Atheist in denial, which you explained by the remark about belief in a higher power keeping you sober. I understand your clarification, but it just raises more questions; however, if your Agnostic Deist perspective helps you day-to-day, far be it from me to try and dismantle it.
The points which would make me change my mind are as follows: Prove Atheism makes you a better person. Prove Theism can make a person who believes killing is wrong kill someone else in the name of God. Prove that the reason people follow these books is not natural, but divine.(We are both Atheists, so good luck on this one) Prove that there are no possible benefits to Theism. Prove that believing something that is wrong holds no merits.
"God made me. I can be nothing more than god made me to be. Therefore god is responsible for me, everything i do is part of his grand plan. And if someone else does something bad and is of my religion, well clearly it was free will, that old evil thing." "My parrents made me. What i have been through in life has made me who i am, but all my choices and deeds are mine, i have to take full responsability for them all, good and bad both." Draw your own conclusions. That is all.
Well as Blood, Sweat and Tears said, "I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell". My attitude is live and let live. As for me, I chose to believe in God.
@F33bs I don't think arguing prison statistics is meant to be a serious attack on theism, more often than not it's used to show theists that their arguments re atheism not being able to provide a framework for moral behaviour are weak and to show them that it's easy to promote similarly weak arguments against theism. DonExodus2 is well aware that correlation doesn't always equal causation and he's well aware that there is are clear educational/socio economic factors at work here.
I presented the question of why the 10 commandments do not contain injunctions against, slavery, rape, and child abuse. The response was that yes they do contain those injunctions, in the form of "Do unto others" How exasperating, but I admit, I couldn't argue with it.
I agree with every point in this video, but I would also like to add an extra point. Many atheists aren’t necessarily atheistic because they think a lot about which religion (or no religion) is best for them. Most people are born into a household belief system, that is, they are born into a home where they are taught to believe something by their parents/guardians. I believe this is one of the only reasons that religion even survives to this day.
I understand the concept religious people push when stating 'atheism takes faith'. This is because they are well aware, and to them, 'know' the consequence of not believing in a god. They've already accepted that a hell exists and are reluctant to even imagine taking the chance. So, yes, in their minds it takes faith. However, if you do not believe in a hell or some sort of punishment for not believing in a god, then it will not take the slightest faith!
I wonder if there is a study as to if a stressful life causes more instances of violence toward another [Yes I know that seems very obvious] , and which group feels or is under more stress ? Is there more stress to feel obligated to a higher power , or the stress of feeling as an outsider in a country so dominated by doctrine ? Any thoughts on this? I know of some religious people with such stress about worrying about pleasing God , But I know Atheists as well who stress about being outed.
@albanegreyshank That makes even more sense. I did read that they will still eat another piranha if it is bleeding and done for, but I WAS hesitant to bring attention to it as it may befuddle the simple thought processes most creationists possess.
Some of the coolest research I have seen comes to the conclusion that pack predators have stronger inhibitions than pack non-preditors primates for example...
@schmutzgreiffer Buddhism has many faces. Some are "godless", ie Atheist, but strictly speaking most forms of Buddhism are still a religion, but when people general speak of religion, they usually mean one of the monotheistic brands all stemming from the same Judeo-Christian source material (which includes all Islamic faiths).
@calaberman : I assume he is referring to the church tax numbers... Church Tax is taken from wages and paid to the Lutheran Church... You have to Opt Out if you don't want to pay it... Many people who are not religious either can't be bothered opting out, don't mind paying the tax, or don't know that it is optional (at least that is the case in Denmark), and so the numbers of "church members" is artificially inflated... as evidenced by polls which directly ask people if they are religious.
@zen699 you got to remember why culture developed. It's because humans started growing their food and developing complex cultures around it. With an abundance of food came an abundance of free time cause people didn't have to hunt or forage all the time. Humans surprisingly aren't the only animals to cultivate food. I heard ants do it too.
@amanwithdreams I was just pointing out the case. In my personal opinion, I think it is false dichotomy to believe that we only work in absolutes or work completely subjectively. There is a range of activity that makes sense, if you go too far outside that range, the moral code becomes incompatible with psychological and societal well being. However, we are products of our time and our environment. In different times and different environments, different codes make more or less sense.
@Palikka92 if you want to know how many atheists there are in the country, you have to ask: "Do you believe in god?". you have to ask about beliefs. another way would be to ask what they do, if they go to church regularly. but if they are, for whatever reasons, still registered with some kind of organisation is meaningless, it has nothing to do with the actual beliefs.
to 1. Under certain circumstances, atheism can indirectly make some people into better people. I'm talking about cases where a person follows a particular piece of bad advise, but is dissuaded from the religious doctrine that brought up the bad piece of advise. Atheism on it's own doesn't make a person better. It just takes away one of the many sources of potential bad advise. Atheists just have one less drop of water in the ocean of bad influence, which is a plus in my book. a tiny one though
@drukenhard Atheism isn't the lack of a religion, its the lack of a belief in a god. There are many religious atheists and non-religious theists in the world
@NoMoreMasters - Okay, I did some fact checking. Hitler was obsessed with his health due to his mother's (Klara) death from Cancer. He would regularly depict graphic slaughtering of animals to shun guests from eating meat. He had a greenhouse for a constant supply of fruits and vegetables built by Martin Bormann and gave out gold watches to any of his associates who quit.
@TurboDally : I think it's a similar thing in Denmark... The church tax is taken by default unless you specifically apply not to pay that part of the tax... As it requires you to directly do something about it, I have a feeling many people don't bother, and so their names are counted as "members" of the church, even though they really are not. I am moving to Denmark in three weeks, and I will certainly not be paying any church tax. :o)
@Starbat88: Thanks; I was sticking my neck out a bit by making the point. The symbolism in Taoism is a code, not a set of rules. It is all understood as metaphorical, there are no dogmatic literalist interpretations. Taoism is further distinguished from religion by having a sense of humour; you cannot, by definition, be a *serious* Taoist. I'd go as far as to say it's the most tongue-in-cheek philosophy out there, the Oriental equivalent of Pastafarianism; wisdom couched in humour.
One can pray, one can worship whatever one wants, I have nothing against it as long as you keep it away from public life. Politics and social issues should not be dealt with from religious point of view.
@hgryphon What was your answer again to the Bush question? I really cannot find it or was it disguised in apologetics or something? I gave up on people who [play apologetics along time ago - its all just external justifications. And no, I dont spell well & do not use a spell chkr - oh I am such a failure - lol
@onijester56 I agree with you but our way of adapting was unlike any other. I'd say what you are refering to as primitive means of survival would have to predate fire. That was a quantum leap in terms of capabilties, as there is no other animal capable of harnessing fire.
@Megaritz The problem is that you cannot argue against an IDer. They do not approach (or even understand) logic as we do, so there is no way to convince them. The non fundamentalist religious person is the prime target for this type of argument, since that is the person that's likely to listen.
In Mein Kampfe Hitler wrote "For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will" and "Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence." In a speech in April 1922 Hitler said that Jesus was "the true God." Also Hitler often associated atheism with Germany's communist enemy.
@dameon692002 I guess the version of the bible I was using(NRSV) says survive others say gets up in a day or two, continues, lives, etc. so if the slave is mortally wounded and dies on the 3rd day its fine? all versions say either the slave/servant was property/money and that no punishment shall be given. And if the slave owner is punished for the death by death then should not the parent of the unruly child that they stoned to death, be punished with death?
bad anology: wikipedia - "It is important to keep keep four or more, not in pairs, since aggression among them is common, not allowing the weaker fish to survive, and is distributed more widely when kept in larger groups. It is not rare to find individuals with one eye missing due to a previous attack. Piranhas are likely to become cannibalistic on others in their group if underfed".
@atheistrage the graphic mentioned that the NAS was 72% christian, but we use that study to understand it was 72% atheist. either it was a typo or we been grossly misqouting that study
The prison statistic blew my mind. I did not expect such a big discrepancy between the prison population and the outside population in terms of atheism. I mean, stating that morality flows from god is inane, but I didn't actually expect there to be a statistical relationship opposing it.
@AmerginMacEccit the entire point of those arguments is that they're illogical. it's called satire. they're pointing out that saying hitler killed millions of people because of his religion is the same as saying he killed millions of people because he had a mustache or because he was vegetarian or because he was german or for any other single reason taken out of context.
@izlamiztruth That in itself is a misconception. Some atheists believe there is no god, but mostly we simply don't take a stance on it at all. To be atheist simply means to not follow a theism. Many of us could also be described as agnostic.
The only thing I take issue with is the idea that atheism immunizes one against homophobia, simply because I think humans evolved to be that way. I think it found its way into religion (though not all religions to be fair) and that some time in the past we figured out it wasn't a sound idea, but in a time when resources were scarce, those who weren't reproducing were unlikely to be encouraged in a highly social species. Religions are continuing it, but I don't think they are the source of it.
@FranklyLate (continued) To address this artificial production, I'm not sure if you've heard of the 'magnetite theory,' that what's happening when something like "The God Helmet," which you can Wiki, is placed over someone's head and activated is that this somehow through the magnetite surrounding the pineal gland causes the natural induction of DMT. That's one theory. The Wiki page won't say much as to how it works in detail. Are you familiar with DMT, by the way? (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine)
@Palikka92 Isn't that because you have to contact the church to unsubscribe from the church? Since people aren't having religions shoved down their throats perhaps the incentive to "unsub" isn't just there? Let me know.
Denying God doesn't make you a better person. You become a better person by doing what is right even when it is inconvenient to do so. This is the only way to become a better person. Which faith you belong to has nothing to do with it.
@Knr911 Ian Kershaw's Hitler Biography,Penguin editions, 2008: 160, "Hitler convinced himself that meat and alcohol were hamrful to him".124, "Hitler (...) launched into a lenghty diatribe on vegetarianism". 38, "his cranky vegetarianism following the death in 1931 of his niece" 625, "Hitler confined himself as always strictly to a non-meal diet". Etc. H. have chosen, from the 20's and more from the 30', to confine himself, progressively then exclusively, to a vegetarian regime. Cont...
@marcellohro It is a common myth about socialism and communism. These ideologies are against the material wealth of organized religion, not faith itself.
@wrightlawnv just a question, I don't know where they think hitler was a vegetarian, and I don't know where you got his favorite dish, could you show us a link about this please?
@SeveredFootLoki No my point was never to bolster creationist ideas or thinking, I'm just arguing some key points. The point of it is just simply to argue, I don't have some kind of creationist manifesto behind it lol.
I love the stats on criminal activity per capita, with higher rates of incarceration among the devout rather than the godless heathens. That alone can be pretty telling. We are a social species and rely on ourselves for survival.
@FurieMan can we agree that good and bad things are done on both religion and atheism? And if religion does more harm than Atheism, then it's because religion is more abundant?
@TheAlaricPetz circumcision sucks, but it's nowhere near as bad as even the most modest form of FGM. circumcision makes sex slightly less pleasurable and has little risk of serious complication, whereas FGM usually involves destruction of entire organs. it's like comparing amputation to tattooing.
Religion is just a collection of common faith in the unknown. This is why Atheism is still considered a religion. Because others also don't believe in God, you can feel the same type of fellowship and community as a Christian can. Atheism may not tell anyone to kill, but that doesn't mean it makes you a better person. If a bad person becomes an Atheist, that person is no less bad. If a bad person becomes a Theist, that person has not changed either.
I must disagree with your conclusion from that Gregory Paul paper. He did not say that more developed countries were so because of their secularism but actually it is more likely the other way round. When a society becomes more healthy, it begins to lose its faith. Faith is for the poor and destitute. On the whole, good work Sir.
@TheStuhero: And re AA being comprised of "autonomous" groups... I attend a Child Contact Centre to see my son; they're "autonomous" too... except that all of them are funded by churches, rent halls from churches, and are staffed almost entirely by Christians... and I'm glad *someone* actually provides this service, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a "starfish" organization; autonomous groups seeded from a single source. AA is the same; you can see that just from their literature.
@MilitantPeaceist Last time I checked, in the United States, you only needed 10 followers to register a church regardless of religion. That was in the 90's so it might have gone up.
@dameon692002 The big difference is, i´m not claiming to be god. A god, by the christian deffinition, would be omnipotent and omniscient, perfectly affecting any and all if it so wished. I am not a god, if i wished to affect someone or something, there is a rather wide margine for error, or resistance.
my computer crashed recently and I lost my bookmarks, there was a really good site debunking creationist arguments and I cant remember what it was, can anyone help me please.
One correction: while Hitler himself was raised Roman Catholic, it was not Catholics that were committing most of the atrocities, but Protestants. Indeed, protestantism was the religion primarily exploited by the nazis as there were simply more protestants in germany (followed by Roman Catholic).
@Hanahleia Atheists do not deny any 'spiritual' or 'higher' level experiences. See Sam Harris for a long answer We just deny that these experiences come from a god which no-one can prove exists in any way, shape, or form without running into paradoxes and contradictions and lack of evidence. The 'higher' feelings though are phsical and can be artificially induced using electro magnets in the brain.
It is curious the fear that some religiousos have of atheists. As a long time atheist I'm not aware of any conspiracies, in fact I rarely even bother to discuss it with atheist friends. I'm not entirely convinced that all Christians are such very good examples of morality, especially some of those that post videos on here!
One quibble: Einstein specifically rejected the label 'atheist" though he said he was ok with "agnostic". Lincoln's spirituality was complex.
Otherwise, great video.
There is an aspect of morality that rarely gets mentioned--namely, that morality also comes from the emotional connection we feel with others called "compassion."
2) I was a Christian for 20 years and my parents sent me to Christian schools since kindergarten. I began to question my faith as I grew older and I turned to my Bible for answers. Becoming more familiar with biblical content resulted in my apostasy. Subsequent conversations with my parents made them question their faith so much that they stopped attending church. Religious beliefs fail miserably when subjected to critical scrutiny.
"Just check out some books in the library, or, even better, ask God Himself."
1) I was a Christian for 20 years and my parents sent me to Christian schools since kindergarten. I began to question my faith as I grew older and I turned to my Bible for answers...which resulted in my apostasy. Subsequent conversations with my parents made them question their faith so much that they stopped attending church. Religious beliefs fail miserably when subjected to critical scrutiny.
As a person from Sweden, I've visited the USA, and some of the reactions I got when people asked me about my religion(and I said that I was an atheist) was just awesome, I remember two of them in particular.
1, "ok... (long paus)... I can respect that" and then the woman stopped her 2 hour attempt to have a conversation with me.
2, "Oh, okay, but don't tell our oldest son about it, he's born again and really fanatical and would probably not take it so good."
"At a time when the heads of the major nations in the world faced the new Germany with cool reserve and considerable suspicion, the Catholic Church, the greatest moral power on earth, through the Concordat expressed its confidence in the new German government. This was a deed of immeasurable significance for the reputation of the new government abroad."
Cardinal Faulhaber (1937)
Thanks for putting this one back up. I'd seen it before, but it was invigorating to see it again!
@2:15 we find a version of Aunt Martha's Dictum "Morality is doing what is right, even when no one is looking."
Many, many, many immoral acts have been done in religion's name. None in the name of atheism (even though performed by atheists, that is not the reason.@ 3:20 @5:20)
Nice- well done... I also like the saying: "most are atheists when it comes to someone else's conception of god" and "religion is arrogance masquerading as humility (with a victim mentality)"
This is a great video! It's amazing what a person can do WHEN THEY THINK FOR THEMSELVES!!
@FFreeThinker Thanks for uploading this, this message needs to be said after recent events.
FFreeThinker, you do come up with some very good "hmmmm, let me think about this". All points made were well put.
@Timmay123456789 As I said, "altruism" means many things. I was referring to "compassion" in a very specific way, as opposed (for example) to good manners or a sympathy with friends who're experiencing something you yourself have known, a philosophical belief in collective action, etc.
Great Video!!!
Very articulate in expressing many of the misconceptions about atheism.
A huge thumbs for you FFreeThinker.
Man, you deserve far more viewings than you have received... keep it up.
I love how educated most of the comments on this video are. :D
Also, ancient myths can seem ridiculous at times, but if you think about it, they didn't have bad reasons for believing. Everything they knew suggested that there was indeed a Thor and Zeus. And even if a belief turns out to be untrue, that doesn't mean that your faith in it was worthless. It is hard to defend the Greek and Roman Gods, as most of their texts were admitted to be pure storytelling, but other holy texts advocate ways of living to make your life better.
to 2.
I completely agree. Atheists can be mislead by a number of stupid pseudo science and stupid ideologies that have no relation to religion. I've seen this happen too many times in the realm of the hyper paranoid, where people conjure ridiculous theories to justify the invasion of privacy and even injury to another.
Anyway, since religion proselytizes the poor and the insecure, who'll have a higher chance to be desperate enough to commit a crime, I'd say you're right.
@exconguitar Yes, Stalin is the one that was an atheist. Hitler was also Austrian, not German.
I love the religious leaders in the last picture. They get to experience a political insight and worldly involvement in their intellectual capacity to speak many languages and know culture.
@Mariomaniac37 Not at all. Einstein is an on record atheist. That is to say that he came out and stated that he was openly, so as to clarify the misunderstanding that he was using the word god as anything but a figurative term.
I don't want to be nitpicky, FFreeThinker, but in a conversation with a creationist, it was pointed out to me that piranha do indeed attack one another, sometimes even kill one another, in captivity and in the wild. It's not their regular mode of activity, true, but they do it out of dominance and to kill off or oust their weak members.
This of course, doesn't change the points you're making and is specific just to your (and Thunderf00t's) example.
@Amarkcalledme
I've always been into philosophy myself, and while dualism is enticing and poetic, it's been effectively disproven by modern neuroscience (past couple hundred years or so). Take the lesion method; when certain parts of the brain are damaged or removed, it results in a very specific type of deficit. Phineas Gage is probably the most famous example, suffering an extreme personality change after losing part of his frontal lobe. You should read more on neuroscience, you'll enjoy it.
Nice, that's the sort of video that makes me feel good about atheism.
@mattghtpa
There is a huge difference between questioning the validity of a religion and supporting the Constitutional rights of the people who practice a religion.
@Knr911 Not out of love for animals (even if he, indeed, loved dogs) but because he thought it was a healthy regime and to control over his weight. His niece's death disturbed him to the point he was more preoccupied by his own health and he decided to adopt a stricter vegetarian regime. No relation with animal rights or love for animals. He may have done some exceptions like eating sausages sometimes, but his personal preference for a vegetarian diet is testfied.
Thank you for understanding my argument. This is exactly what I'm advocating.
It annoys me somewhat that people still claim that Hitler was an atheist. He was actually a creationist.
@NoMoreMasters - I wasn't talking about morals, I was rebutting your claim.
Hitler in (transcript) said: "But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian." and "I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
Joseph Goebbels diary said; "He believes more than ever that meat-eating is harmful to humanity."
General and close friend Léon Degrelle wrote: ""He could not bear to eat meat, because it meant the death of a living creature"
@PSNBloodraid My argument lends to the fact that although we share some of the basic similarities, including many of our genes, our techonology and culture makes us so undeniably different in our behaviors and in the ways that we live that we are scarcely comparable with other primates (who for the most part usually mull around in the jungle foraging for food and finding dry places to sleep.)
Mine. (why did the rest get cut off?) I'm also not going to post any comments against you. (yeah, I say that now) I will, however, stick around a watch this beautiful debate between atheism and theism blossom, grow old, and rot. (although I doubt that will happen). P.S. You defend yourself pretty well. The best I've heard in a long time.
@DrMilgram Athiest myself, but had to reply.
Not all religions is about believing in a god, Buddhism, whichis about believing in yourself. That you can become a "greater" being, by meditating, through observing their surroundings, by following a path you think is the best, etc.
I'm not one to know much about it, never realy read into it, but got a friend that is a buddhist. Wiki it and maybe it makes up for a nice read.
@NoMoreMasters "Hitler was NOT a vegetarian. He loved eating sausages."
A priest saw the lumberjack eating sausage in a pub on a Friday during Lent. He chastized him and told his penance would be to bring a load of wood to the church. The next day, the lumberjack dumped a load of sawdust in the driveway. He said, "If sausage is meat, then sawdust is wood!"
@SeveredFootLoki it's an artificial changing world that we create. We did not create the world that we evolved from (who knows what did if you are an atheist or who cares for that matter lol) but we had to adapt to it. Now we feel that it is necessary to put pressure on ourselves and to compete and wage wars to advance technology. It's not about survival it's about pushing limits. Survival is the benchmark but not the test.
@TheStuhero: I was drawing a subtext from what your comment; I acknowledged that I could be barking up the wrong tree: "Secular Humanist Agnostic" sounds (IMFAO) like an Atheist in denial, which you explained by the remark about belief in a higher power keeping you sober.
I understand your clarification, but it just raises more questions; however, if your Agnostic Deist perspective helps you day-to-day, far be it from me to try and dismantle it.
The points which would make me change my mind are as follows:
Prove Atheism makes you a better person.
Prove Theism can make a person who believes killing is wrong kill someone else in the name of God.
Prove that the reason people follow these books is not natural, but divine.(We are both Atheists, so good luck on this one)
Prove that there are no possible benefits to Theism.
Prove that believing something that is wrong holds no merits.
"God made me. I can be nothing more than god made me to be. Therefore god is responsible for me, everything i do is part of his grand plan. And if someone else does something bad and is of my religion, well clearly it was free will, that old evil thing."
"My parrents made me. What i have been through in life has made me who i am, but all my choices and deeds are mine, i have to take full responsability for them all, good and bad both."
Draw your own conclusions. That is all.
Well as Blood, Sweat and Tears said, "I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell". My attitude is live and let live. As for me, I chose to believe in God.
@F33bs
I don't think arguing prison statistics is meant to be a serious attack on theism, more often than not it's used to show theists that their arguments re atheism not being able to provide a framework for moral behaviour are weak and to show them that it's easy to promote similarly weak arguments against theism. DonExodus2 is well aware that correlation doesn't always equal causation and he's well aware that there is are clear educational/socio economic factors at work here.
I presented the question of why the 10 commandments do not contain injunctions against, slavery, rape, and child abuse. The response was that yes they do contain those injunctions, in the form of "Do unto others" How exasperating, but I admit, I couldn't argue with it.
I agree with every point in this video, but I would also like to add an extra point. Many atheists aren’t necessarily atheistic because they think a lot about which religion (or no religion) is best for them. Most people are born into a household belief system, that is, they are born into a home where they are taught to believe something by their parents/guardians. I believe this is one of the only reasons that religion even survives to this day.
I understand the concept religious people push when stating 'atheism takes faith'. This is because they are well aware, and to them, 'know' the consequence of not believing in a god. They've already accepted that a hell exists and are reluctant to even imagine taking the chance. So, yes, in their minds it takes faith. However, if you do not believe in a hell or some sort of punishment for not believing in a god, then it will not take the slightest faith!
I wonder if there is a study as to if a stressful life causes more instances of violence toward another [Yes I know that seems very obvious] , and which group feels or is under more stress ? Is there more stress to feel obligated to a higher power , or the stress of feeling as an outsider in a country so dominated by doctrine ?
Any thoughts on this? I know of some religious people with such stress about worrying about pleasing God , But I know Atheists as well who stress about being outed.
@albanegreyshank That makes even more sense. I did read that they will still eat another piranha if it is bleeding and done for, but I WAS hesitant to bring attention to it as it may befuddle the simple thought processes most creationists possess.
Some of the coolest research I have seen comes to the conclusion that pack predators have stronger inhibitions than pack non-preditors primates for example...
Great vid FfreeThinker--love how the facts point out that religion is nuts!
@schmutzgreiffer Buddhism has many faces. Some are "godless", ie Atheist, but strictly speaking most forms of Buddhism are still a religion, but when people general speak of religion, they usually mean one of the monotheistic brands all stemming from the same Judeo-Christian source material (which includes all Islamic faiths).
@calaberman : I assume he is referring to the church tax numbers... Church Tax is taken from wages and paid to the Lutheran Church... You have to Opt Out if you don't want to pay it... Many people who are not religious either can't be bothered opting out, don't mind paying the tax, or don't know that it is optional (at least that is the case in Denmark), and so the numbers of "church members" is artificially inflated... as evidenced by polls which directly ask people if they are religious.
@zen699 you got to remember why culture developed. It's because humans started growing their food and developing complex cultures around it. With an abundance of food came an abundance of free time cause people didn't have to hunt or forage all the time. Humans surprisingly aren't the only animals to cultivate food. I heard ants do it too.
@ZombieToaster Most of those statues were put up after the men in question were dead. A lot of Stalin's statues went up while he was still alive.
@amanwithdreams I was just pointing out the case. In my personal opinion, I think it is false dichotomy to believe that we only work in absolutes or work completely subjectively. There is a range of activity that makes sense, if you go too far outside that range, the moral code becomes incompatible with psychological and societal well being. However, we are products of our time and our environment. In different times and different environments, different codes make more or less sense.
@Palikka92
if you want to know how many atheists there are in the country, you have to ask: "Do you believe in god?". you have to ask about beliefs. another way would be to ask what they do, if they go to church regularly. but if they are, for whatever reasons, still registered with some kind of organisation is meaningless, it has nothing to do with the actual beliefs.
to 1.
Under certain circumstances, atheism can indirectly make some people into better people. I'm talking about cases where a person follows a particular piece of bad advise, but is dissuaded from the religious doctrine that brought up the bad piece of advise.
Atheism on it's own doesn't make a person better. It just takes away one of the many sources of potential bad advise. Atheists just have one less drop of water in the ocean of bad influence, which is a plus in my book. a tiny one though
@drukenhard Atheism isn't the lack of a religion, its the lack of a belief in a god. There are many religious atheists and non-religious theists in the world
Great video, Keep up the great work.
Wonderful Points... And don't forget the wonderful quote from Hichens, "Religion poisons everything!"
@NoMoreMasters - Okay, I did some fact checking.
Hitler was obsessed with his health due to his mother's (Klara) death from Cancer. He would regularly depict graphic slaughtering of animals to shun guests from eating meat. He had a greenhouse for a constant supply of fruits and vegetables built by Martin Bormann and gave out gold watches to any of his associates who quit.
@TurboDally : I think it's a similar thing in Denmark... The church tax is taken by default unless you specifically apply not to pay that part of the tax... As it requires you to directly do something about it, I have a feeling many people don't bother, and so their names are counted as "members" of the church, even though they really are not. I am moving to Denmark in three weeks, and I will certainly not be paying any church tax. :o)
@amanwithsreams: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live--it's in Exodus.
@Starbat88: Thanks; I was sticking my neck out a bit by making the point.
The symbolism in Taoism is a code, not a set of rules. It is all understood as metaphorical, there are no dogmatic literalist interpretations.
Taoism is further distinguished from religion by having a sense of humour; you cannot, by definition, be a *serious* Taoist. I'd go as far as to say it's the most tongue-in-cheek philosophy out there, the Oriental equivalent of Pastafarianism; wisdom couched in humour.
One can pray, one can worship whatever one wants, I have nothing against it as long as you keep it away from public life. Politics and social issues should not be dealt with from religious point of view.
@hgryphon
What was your answer again to the Bush question?
I really cannot find it or was it disguised in apologetics or something? I gave up on people who [play apologetics along time ago - its all just external justifications.
And no, I dont spell well & do not use a spell chkr - oh I am such a failure - lol
@onijester56 I agree with you but our way of adapting was unlike any other. I'd say what you are refering to as primitive means of survival would have to predate fire. That was a quantum leap in terms of capabilties, as there is no other animal capable of harnessing fire.
Beautiful comment! Faith is the bad "F" word, let logic and reason prevail over myth. You can't have beLIEfs without a LIE.
@Megaritz The problem is that you cannot argue against an IDer. They do not approach (or even understand) logic as we do, so there is no way to convince them. The non fundamentalist religious person is the prime target for this type of argument, since that is the person that's likely to listen.
In Mein Kampfe Hitler wrote "For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will" and "Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence." In a speech in April 1922 Hitler said that Jesus was "the true God." Also Hitler often associated atheism with Germany's communist enemy.
@dameon692002 I guess the version of the bible I was using(NRSV) says survive others say gets up in a day or two, continues, lives, etc. so if the slave is mortally wounded and dies on the 3rd day its fine? all versions say either the slave/servant was property/money and that no punishment shall be given. And if the slave owner is punished for the death by death then should not the parent of the unruly child that they stoned to death, be punished with death?
bad anology: wikipedia - "It is important to keep keep four or more, not in pairs, since aggression among them is common, not allowing the weaker fish to survive, and is distributed more widely when kept in larger groups. It is not rare to find individuals with one eye missing due to a previous attack. Piranhas are likely to become cannibalistic on others in their group if underfed".
@atheistrage the graphic mentioned that the NAS was 72% christian, but we use that study to understand it was 72% atheist. either it was a typo or we been grossly misqouting that study
The prison statistic blew my mind. I did not expect such a big discrepancy between the prison population and the outside population in terms of atheism. I mean, stating that morality flows from god is inane, but I didn't actually expect there to be a statistical relationship opposing it.
@AmerginMacEccit the entire point of those arguments is that they're illogical. it's called satire. they're pointing out that saying hitler killed millions of people because of his religion is the same as saying he killed millions of people because he had a mustache or because he was vegetarian or because he was german or for any other single reason taken out of context.
@izlamiztruth That in itself is a misconception. Some atheists believe there is no god, but mostly we simply don't take a stance on it at all. To be atheist simply means to not follow a theism. Many of us could also be described as agnostic.
Really good vid, really interesting seeing the prison population ! And I loved the picture "Blind faith : Because thinking is hard"
The only thing I take issue with is the idea that atheism immunizes one against homophobia, simply because I think humans evolved to be that way. I think it found its way into religion (though not all religions to be fair) and that some time in the past we figured out it wasn't a sound idea, but in a time when resources were scarce, those who weren't reproducing were unlikely to be encouraged in a highly social species. Religions are continuing it, but I don't think they are the source of it.
@FranklyLate (continued) To address this artificial production, I'm not sure if you've heard of the 'magnetite theory,' that what's happening when something like "The God Helmet," which you can Wiki, is placed over someone's head and activated is that this somehow through the magnetite surrounding the pineal gland causes the natural induction of DMT. That's one theory. The Wiki page won't say much as to how it works in detail. Are you familiar with DMT, by the way? (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine)
@Palikka92
Isn't that because you have to contact the church to unsubscribe from the church? Since people aren't having religions shoved down their throats perhaps the incentive to "unsub" isn't just there? Let me know.
@LHswe Excuse me...Professor Stenger's book is called "God: The Failed Hypothesis." NOT "The God Hypothesis."
Denying God doesn't make you a better person. You become a better person by doing what is right even when it is inconvenient to do so. This is the only way to become a better person. Which faith you belong to has nothing to do with it.
@Knr911
Ian Kershaw's Hitler Biography,Penguin editions, 2008:
160, "Hitler convinced himself that meat and alcohol were hamrful to him".124, "Hitler (...) launched into a lenghty diatribe on vegetarianism". 38, "his cranky vegetarianism following the death in 1931 of his niece" 625, "Hitler confined himself as always strictly to a non-meal diet". Etc.
H. have chosen, from the 20's and more from the 30', to confine himself, progressively then exclusively, to a vegetarian regime.
Cont...
What is the name of the song that starts playing at the end of the video? I am drawing a blank.
@marcellohro It is a common myth about socialism and communism. These ideologies are against the material wealth of organized religion, not faith itself.
@wrightlawnv just a question, I don't know where they think hitler was a vegetarian, and I don't know where you got his favorite dish, could you show us a link about this please?
@SeveredFootLoki No my point was never to bolster creationist ideas or thinking, I'm just arguing some key points. The point of it is just simply to argue, I don't have some kind of creationist manifesto behind it lol.
@kapa1611 Some believers burn other religion's books too.. your point?
@Timmay123456789 Not quite. Altruism covers a multitude of ideas, whereas I was referring the emotional investment in others' lives and feelings.
I love the stats on criminal activity per capita, with higher rates of incarceration among the devout rather than the godless heathens. That alone can be pretty telling. We are a social species and rely on ourselves for survival.
@FurieMan can we agree that good and bad things are done on both religion and atheism? And if religion does more harm than Atheism, then it's because religion is more abundant?
@TheAlaricPetz circumcision sucks, but it's nowhere near as bad as even the most modest form of FGM. circumcision makes sex slightly less pleasurable and has little risk of serious complication, whereas FGM usually involves destruction of entire organs. it's like comparing amputation to tattooing.
@Vortex42 I did miss your point. Glad to see we are on the same page.
Religion is just a collection of common faith in the unknown. This is why Atheism is still considered a religion. Because others also don't believe in God, you can feel the same type of fellowship and community as a Christian can.
Atheism may not tell anyone to kill, but that doesn't mean it makes you a better person. If a bad person becomes an Atheist, that person is no less bad. If a bad person becomes a Theist, that person has not changed either.
I must disagree with your conclusion from that Gregory Paul paper. He did not say that more developed countries were so because of their secularism but actually it is more likely the other way round. When a society becomes more healthy, it begins to lose its faith. Faith is for the poor and destitute. On the whole, good work Sir.
@TheStuhero: And re AA being comprised of "autonomous" groups...
I attend a Child Contact Centre to see my son; they're "autonomous" too... except that all of them are funded by churches, rent halls from churches, and are staffed almost entirely by Christians... and I'm glad *someone* actually provides this service, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a "starfish" organization; autonomous groups seeded from a single source. AA is the same; you can see that just from their literature.
@MilitantPeaceist Last time I checked, in the United States, you only needed 10 followers to register a church regardless of religion. That was in the 90's so it might have gone up.
@dameon692002 The big difference is, i´m not claiming to be god. A god, by the christian deffinition, would be omnipotent and omniscient, perfectly affecting any and all if it so wished. I am not a god, if i wished to affect someone or something, there is a rather wide margine for error, or resistance.
my computer crashed recently and I lost my bookmarks, there was a really good site debunking creationist arguments and I cant remember what it was, can anyone help me please.
One correction: while Hitler himself was raised Roman Catholic, it was not Catholics that were committing most of the atrocities, but Protestants. Indeed, protestantism was the religion primarily exploited by the nazis as there were simply more protestants in germany (followed by Roman Catholic).
@Hanahleia
Atheists do not deny any 'spiritual' or 'higher' level experiences. See Sam Harris for a long answer We just deny that these experiences come from a god which no-one can prove exists in any way, shape, or form without running into paradoxes and contradictions and lack of evidence.
The 'higher' feelings though are phsical and can be artificially induced using electro magnets in the brain.
Btw, have you taken a Logic course? I could make a much more effective argument if you have.
It is curious the fear that some religiousos have of atheists. As a long time atheist I'm not aware of any conspiracies, in fact I rarely even bother to discuss it with atheist friends. I'm not entirely convinced that all Christians are such very good examples of morality, especially some of those that post videos on here!
ALL HAIL CEILING CAT! but seriously very good video and thanks for addressing things that needed to be addressed.