Agreed. After carting so many times and using a lockon camera with melee weapons to fight rathalios/rathian/bazel/yian subspecies, I'm looking forward to using it too!
@@trevinsingh9390 I've been using it, but I'd never used a bowgun before so I suck. I've been carting basically once per hunt with it. I'll get better with it though
@@Marksmaan Yeah, I've never really liked the ranged weapon options in this, but figured I'd give it a shot. I can see how it makes runs cakewalk-easy if you have some idea of what you're doing (and have all the necessary decos to build it in the first place), but when you're still at the "how do I set up my radial menu for convenient ammo crafting on the fly" stage of learning to use ammo weapons, it's at best going to break even with your current hunting times with whatever weapon(s) you're accustomed to using, and probably with more carts on the way. This seems especially true if, like me, you tend to hunt without the extras: minimal buffs, using traps just to capture rather than for creating dps windows, etc. I tried using it on Gold Rathian and she just wiped the floor with me because there was rarely a time I could get any decent damage in on her without getting stomped, and the occasional potshot into her wings/tailtip isn't going to produce impressive spreadsheet-based dps. Went back to greatsword, hacked off tail, crushed head, shattered wings, gg.
@@Marksmaan I want to try out JinJinx's build with the 3 shield mod for lance shield, 5 plus to guard and guard up. I've even seen people using offensive guard a lot with those HBGs and since I think the skill is a waste on anything except great swords and charge blade (IMHO), it's nice to have it on a high damage dealing weapon that can activate it easily
@@ShjadeNexayre the point of sharing that is it isn't exactly an easy button. Its satisfying but the level of which it punishes you for getting greedy is worse than even games like Sekiro. It's ridiculous. It certainly has it's down sides, but when you lock down a monster, you melt it. It helps to have decoys...I mean teammates...to soften parts cuz the HBG clutch attack takes forever. I've had downs that didn't last long enough to soften a part.
I think this one shouldn't have taken a Defense Boost vs. Divine Blessing/Health Boost/etc. approach, and it would have been much more useful if you analyzed/covered how Defense Boost actually stacks (or doesn't stack) with the other defensive skills. For example, I think many hunters have found a build with lvl 7 Defense Boost (which only takes up two gear slots really) in conjunction with lvl 5 Divine Blessing and lvl 3 Health Boost, as well as other defensive skills to be very effective. Big fan of the work you do, but I think propping up any skill as a "trap" based solely on its individual contribution to a build might lead to hunters overlooking synergies they'd find really useful. MHW is loaded with skills meant to be woven together after all!
if the deco cannot stand solely on it own contribution and require others it would effectively not be even worth a 1:1 ratio comparison to other deco. Which is why he explain ehp my concern is why would dev design something to be completely useless
@@TimeManInJail if that's the case then crit boost is a trap, because without critical eye and attack boost it can't stand on its own. Same for crit eye, without attack boost and crit boost it's not that good. There are, afaik, a few skills that can stand in there own without support and aside from ATB they are all QOL skills. So op's comment stands
@@popitrekker1543 but that's because of the Crits being a Final Multiplier in the end. that's what makes us want to Crit more often, because the effect adds another Multiplier rather than having to deal with the effective diminishing returns of Additive Bonuses. in game Stats, relative bonuses is literally the only thing that matters. if it's a higher relative bonus, it's better, no more thinking needed. if it's not, then it isn't useful. so increasing the Multipliers that you have the smallest amount of already, is almost always the best decision. more small-medium Multipliers is always better then few large Multipliers.
@@taiiat0 my reply to John was in the fact that he said that "if a skill can't stand on its own with no help from another skill then it's a trap" your reply actually supports my claim because without crit boost, crit eye, and ATB working together to provide a higher end benefit, they each, by John's logic, are a trap
This math is useless unless youre an above average player/speed runner and arent getting continuously slapped like the average random. On paper defense 7 isnt worth in practice its why im still standing watching the rest of you get carted
It only worth it under special circumstances, for example to pass certain threshold to avoid getting one shot to two shot, two shot to three shot and so on. Although its not completely useless like majority of players said, its still not advisable to always use it outside these circumstances, aka niche. But still, its up to the players.
I applied the info from the "attack boost trap" video and experienced an immediate and considerable change in my hunts. I'm excited to digest this video. Great content y'all!
Divine blessing 5 is ruining the game for me. I haven't even touched the golden lune set with any upgrades and even with base stats, enemy attacks are a joke. Using the head and chest, but I'll probably switch something out, maybe legs but the slots for Vaal arms and belt are too good, plus super recovery!
@@trevinsingh9390 the vaal helm is nice since peak performance is a nice damage boost, it's easy to slot in the third level, and it has a ton uptime with this kind of build. I run it with the gloves.
Just pointing out that I find converting stuff like Evade Window and Speed Eating into eHP kind of spooky. If say Evade Window let you dodge 10% of the attacks that would hit you on average, then against a troublesome attack that deals 100% of your eHP in damage it would save you 10% of the time, while a 10% eHP boost would save you always. The opposite happens if you're usually killed by 2 hits dealing 80% of your eHP - a small eHP boost does nothing, dodging 10% of the time saves you more than 10% of the time since you get 2 shots to dodge. So comparing eHP and evasion seems to me to require agreeing on a distribution of different possibly lethal situations the monster imposes on you - something that is highly situational, probably also player-dependent, and would also probably make calculations into a nightmare. Speed eating seems even trickier since it diminishes the window the monster has to impose a possibly lethal situation on you, and there are so many variables involved (sheathe time, interval between attacks in the dangerous situation, etc) I can't see any numerical sense being made.
@Josh derp Yea I still agree Defense Boost 7 does not seem good. Just thinking about whether the methodology of converting them to eHP is always the right way to go for comparison. Although in hindsight I now see that the evasion interpretation pretty much perfectly parallels Divine Blessing, so assuming one accepts considering Divine Blessing in terms of eHP they should also accept Evade Window. The point I made seems to therefore be moreso pointing the limits of using eHP as a metric for things that are random (but again there doesn't really seem to be a good alternative since as I talked, taking into account the randomness would likely complicate things beyond belief). Speed eating I still don't see at all to fit the eHP framework, though.
@@PT8Sceptile I don't think defence boost is as bad as investment as he says because if you are running it all you need is 5 points from the charm and 2 points from a hard jewel as appose to running a handicraft charm so its either a 12% defence boost from DB or a 5% attack increase from the handicraft charm as I feel with most of the skills in the game the dps increase is really insignificant and unnoticeable even with a 100% crit build that's 13 points of investment for a 40% dps increase so is that 40% damage increase worth the amount of time your going to spend chuging potions, curing blights and respawning? when you could be tanking all of it?
They don’t spec the numbers based on damage reduction. They spec is based on what attacks you can survive. Basically defense boost 7 will let you survive certain attack you otherwise wouldn’t. They do t want you “tanking” monster attacks in master rank
@@oriondye3212 I truly don't believe that's the case. MHW and Iceborne are exceptionally well crafted, but sometimes the devs do just drop the ball on balance, whether extremely overtuning (like with Zinogre HBG) or undertuning (defense up food skill and Defense Boost). A close to perfect game can still have flaws. At its current level, there's really situations where Defense Boost will give you enough defense to survive an extra hit - besides low MR monsters. Even using Fortify x2 - a boost of 30% - a Gunner can still be 2HKO'ed by some non-tempered 6-star monsters. When they're tempered, running 7 Defense Boost is about as useful as running 7 Paracoat. Hyperbole aside, it's not very helpful is what I'm getting at. WEx has high strengths with no real weakness, and should be prioritized first over maximum might even when running Max Might secret. Sometimes Capcom has really strong skills, and sometimes they have skills that largely waste your time.
Raymond Santiago I never said the skill wasn’t a waste of time, but it’s not useless. Most of the higher end tempered mobs utilize elemental attacks anyways, so defense is mostly useless for them, and lower end mobs simply don’t hit hard enough to warrant it. About the only mobs o can think of where it might be useful is with black diablos super charges keeping you from getting one shot, but she chains them so fast you’ll still get two shot. So ya situational at best and useless at worst.
Defense boost isnt bad per say, but it definitely shouldnt be a priority Once you have all the other relevant skills, then defense boost just stacks on top
I don't disagree, but in Monster Hunter there's a big difference between having 1 HP and 0 HP and no difference between 1HP and 100HP. When you have 1 HP, you can still move around, drink potions, evade attacks, etc. It's not a game where your movement and attack speed get cut in half when you're down to 10HP or less. That's why the defense boost wasn't designed to be that great of a skill. It's not designed so that you take dramatically much less damage, it's designed such that an attack that deals 100 damage before, now does 95 damage. If that 100 damage would have killed you, now you survive with 5HP instead. That's also why that +50HP from health boost goes such a long way.
boom, you hit the nail. and since carting usually occurs in one, two, or three hits, surviving even ONE extra hit makes a huge difference. If you were being hit 30 times without being able to heal, the math in the vid would make more sense. but you're not. So whatever gives you the "edge," and that includes Defense Boost.
On PreIceborne era, with ArchTempered monsters all was been true: oneshoted attacks even with 500+ armor and difficult ways to bypass this problems. But now, with 900+ armor, you can even faceroll agressive mosters with Rocksteady Mantle and Clutch Attack his head EVEN IF HE READY TO ATTACK YOU. So, if players are still on high ranks (don`t have money to buy DLC), then you are right. If player is Master Rank, JinJinx is right
@@PrototypeMajor no jinx is still right regardless. Jinx said it himself in the video, you don't have infinite deco slot and mind you defense skill need to be level 7 to be somewhat "decent". You better off again like jinx said with lvl 3 health boost and lvl 3 divine blessing (6 slot vs 7 slot) and if your argument is about 1 hp you can still heal etc AGAIN which is better having max health of 200 or 150? It is a shit skill just admit it, they should've buff it to 15% or 20% at level 7 because of how much it cost
I love these math videos, and you can learn a lot about the game from them. And I agree that taking it as your be all end all defense skill at an ENTIRE 7 points is quite errg. Some of you reading may want math in the elemental resist. From 0 to 5 your effective health pool in the first situation would raise from 2092.5 to 2202.63 against elements. 340.756 higher than non Def-7. or 18.3%. A thing to note is that it also increases the effective amount of health you regain from potions as each point of health is worth more. So both your health and recovery are up by around ~15-16% given not all attacks are elemental. Instead you could use 2 points of health boost and 2 points of recovery up for 20% in both instead of ~15-16%. Loved the video, just wanted to add more info for those who were curious.
If you have a high resistance to something ex. fire, then defense +7, + 3 points of fire resist can prevent you from being set on fire. Same with the other elements, but I think the value has to be over 10 - 12
But Jinx, if you're running non-drachen, you need to consider how free defense boost is on armor pieces. The devs took into account its usability, which is why armor pieces in MR with defense boost built in have slot efficiency of 7.
It's also practical to know more about the numbers behind the augment's divine blessing, but we probably need to wait until the PC release for proper testing.
Gerrad Foo it procs 60% of the time, that with health boost had me running around a black veil Vaal with dual blades like i knew how to use them ( and i still got him down in sub 20)
You guys are great at math and finding variables hidden in the game and I’m a big fan of that but boy you guys are terrible at interpreting the data you have. Defense Boost is NOT a trap. It’s a balanced defensive skill with positives and negatives. Yes, Health Boost 3 increases your Effective Health more than Defense Boost 7. But the way they do it IS relevant. See raising armor will increase the effectiveness of each health point, which in turn affects every single interaction with it. It applies the first time you get hit and it applies to everything that *heals you.* Defense Boost increases your healing. Items, Health augments, Super Recovery, Recovery Up, Recovery Speed, Speed Eating... Anything that affects healing will be stronger with Defense Boost because each point of HP you heal actually heals more Effective HP. Health Boost 3 only affects you if your HP is below 50. As long as your HP is above that, the skill does nothing. Compared to Defense Boost 7, Health Boost 3 is ONLY more useful when your HP is below 32 (since Defense Boost 7 increases your Effective Health by 12.39%, then 150 Health becomes relatively 169.585 Health). In your video you claim Health Boost 2 is better than Defense Boost 7, but again, that’s only true if your HP hits below 12. At any point above that, Health Boost 2 either does nothing or is equally effective to Defense Boost 7. Finally, Defense Boost stacks with Health Boost. They make each other stronger. Same with other defensive skills. They actually work better together than the sum of their parts. Now, Defense Boost 7 IS harder to slot in than Health Boost. Welcome to balancing. But it isn’t a trap. It just works differently...
So what you're essentially saying is, Defense Boost amplifies recovery skills, since you take less damage, and thus recover health 'faster' from potions, as compared to health boost. While that is a valid point, it's extremely niche: 1. Max Potions are a thing. Bringing crafting materials for 12 Max Potions is standard, and insta-heals are unaffected by such a comparison. 2. Even if you were to heal normally through potions, Defense Boost 7 requires such an obscenely large amount of deco space, that just slotting in Recovery Up 3 (30% more effective healing) and Health Boost 3 (+50 Health) is not only superior in terms of Effective Health and healing effectiveness, but also less deco heavy (6 levels vs 7 levels). The ONLY time when defense boost has a legitimate use, is when you're stacking all these defensive options together. As you said, they do synergise, and make each other stronger. However, most comfy sets only run 1 - 2 defensive skills (Max of ~6 levels), as any more severely decreases your damage output. Defense Boost is way too expensive to fit, considering that other defensive skills can achieve the same results for much, much less. You're right, it does work differently: In an inferior way, to the extent that it can be considered a 'trap'.
Whyisthisathing Not so much faster as... More effective. But sure, you get it. Max Potions are great but not your sole source of healing. Healing Augments are still a thing. And most players use Mega Potions for the resource save. As for skill efficiency... Sorta? There is not Vitality+ Jewel and no Hard Vitality Jewel. You can get Defense Boost 6 out of two gem slots, which you can’t really do with Health Boost and Recovery BUT the latter 2 can combine with other skills you want. They are different skills doing different things at different costs. That’s how balance works. A “trap” is a skill that’s strictly worse than another option. Defense Boost has advantages and disadvantages compared to other defensive skills...
When it comes to skill point investment, yes def boost is a trap. I believe that is the point they are trying to make, and glossed over it in favor of the “effective health” argument, which doesn’t make as much sense as “instead of 7 levels of def boost, do Y and use those extra four slots on a damage skill. Damage is king. “If you kill it before it can hit you, it’s dead.” -Vampirecosmonaut
Kinda got what you are putting out, until you went and did " Health Boost 2 either does nothing or is equally effective to Defense Boost 7." which without any context at all, hands down gives HB the advantage. 2 v 7 is a no brainer.
Theoretically, yeah sure, Defense Boost is a bad skill, but practically, it's always a good addition to a defensive build which increases your survivability.
This is just not good advice for most players. There are alot of non-edge cases especially at high levels with endgame armors against endgame enemies where running defense boost 7 can save you from carting. Not to mention the fact that in a situation where you are talking about 1-2 hit KOs, divine blessing is totally unreliable since its just a straight 25% chance to proc, in other words a 75% chance to do nothing. Meaning its usually going to do you zero good in endgame situations, same with things like speed eating. Does you zero good if you cart before you can heal. I do agree you should prioritize health boost over defense boost but its easy to run both especially in master rank. If anything divine blessing is a trap because in late master rank its going to provide zero value at least 50% of the time. That said im not going to criticize anyone who says "its a game, play how you want to play", because honestly that's the correct answer. I usually run straight damage boosting abilities end game in a lot of MH games when playing solo because I can confidently run most hunts within the time limit without getting hit by any major attacks (especially in Rise because they thought it was a good idea to make the hunters faster and more mobile than the mosters which is fun, but not really monster hunter). If you are running DB or HH depending on your play style you may want to run every possible defensive ability and nothing else, where if you main LBG you may not want any defensive abilities, especially in a 4 hunter team where you can easily hang back and provide nearly maximum DPS without ever having to worry about getting hit. It just depends, but the answer definitely isn't "defense boost is a trap" especially if you consider divine blessing viable.
Made a build like that with dv blessing secret, vaal soulvein and nergigante ambition with all health skills and max defense boost. I dont have to use potions anymore.
Now this is math that's useful! Finally, a perfect explanation of the Defense, Elemental Res, Health, etc! In my opinion, Elemental Res Jewels are better than the Defense Jewels - you only need 3 Gems of Elemental Resistance, as opposed to 7 Def Gems - to get a Defense Boost. 5 Elements, 3 Gems each = 15 Slots × 3 Elemental Res Gems per Slot (10 Def on top of 20 Elem Res) = 50 extra Defense, on top of 20 Res per Element. I agree on the food buffs - Elemental Res Foods seem to give better results. Nice piano in the background.
Agreed with the defensive skill slots being more useful for other stuff.... but ugh, please do not suggest defensive rng over consistent numbers. It's the burst damage that will kill you, not the dps. Effective health is a compelling stat but the game is more concerned with is whether or not you can survive long enough so you can break off to heal (that usually translates to "can you be one-shotted or not?"). If you can live long enough to heal then you can survive 100% of the time (barring death by animation lock). Sometimes, the defense skill (plus max Vitality) is necessary to hit that threshold. Even if rng defense allows you to effectively tank double the number the number of hits, the law of averages means you're often not going to be able to break off to heal before getting carted, effectively making the survival rate of rng-based defense lower than defense skill. In the end, any effective mathematical analysis of the defense skill must include data on all the monsters' strongest attacks (or most common two-shot kills) and whether or not you can survive eating one without the defense skill on. (Assuming you remembered to put max health boost first).
That's false because you don't need to survive every attack in the game. There is a reason those attacks one shot you, you're not supposed to be hit by them. Teo's Nova, Nerg's Dive, Diablos' Charge. These attacks are there to punish Hunters that aren't paying attention to the fight, or over commiting when they shouldn't be. Once you learn your openings and monster tells, you stop being hit by those attacks. That's why we typically don't recommend Guard Up, for the exact same reason.
@@JinJinxandTuna I No, i'm not talking about those, but there are plenty of other attacks that you just wont survive unless your effective hp is past a certain threshold. Add to those those times you're not totally topped off for one reason or another. Add to those, those unlucky two hit strings that we all sometimes get caught in no matter how good we are. I'm sure you can see how being able to consistently tank even one extra hit is huge to your survivability. In addition to my other reasons, here's a big one I neglected to mention: having predictable damage mitigation can help you better assess when your health is critically low and needs to be topped off. This is not only a defensive benefit but an offensive one as well since it can result in longer (safe) uptime.
Nice video! I do feel like implying speed eating is comparable to defense boost 7 is a bit disengenous though, they function on such different axis. Would have loved for some discussion of fortify, both against defense boost and how it stacks/interacts with it.
So how would Vaal Soulvein, Recovery Up/Speed 3, and Health Augment 1 affect this? My current set has those (also Peak Performance 3 for damage purposes) and was wondering how good the survivability is with those.
Even with the RNG aspect, Divine Blessing just seems more applicable in all situations if you actually need defensive options beyond Vitality and other utility skills.
Yeah, that's why although health boost is still the better defensive skill, divine blessing isn't that bad, especially when paired with health boost, both of those combined can do more work than 300 more defense or whatever defense boost can provide
Divine Blessing 5 procs at 50% rate. So when it comes to taking big attacks, you are basically flipping a coin as to whether you survive (i.e, a tempered nova, tempered bazel purple bomb, etc.) But over the long run of small attacks, you will definitely see a return. Especially if you're using rocksteady. The big question regarding defense boost is simply: Why not. It literally costs 1 deco and a charm to get in. The only reason you would squirm over putting it in is if you want all the damage meta stuff. And if you want that, chances are you should just concentrate on not getting hit and sticking with Health Boost.
I feel like this doesn't take into account that short of hb3 and if it procs db, the other skills wont effect your ability to not die outright. sure faster red health recovery is nice, but only if you're alive to recover it, same with speed eating. The point is defense has its own niche, and does things other skills won't. Not to mention skills on armor pieces which can lead to better efficiency for certain builds. Is it overkill to run health 3, divine 5, and defense 7, maybe, but it'll keep you alive against even the toughest of monsters.
Except tempered Lunastra and tempered Gold Rath But those 2 are in a league of their own, cause even Tempered Rajang I can stare down with that kind of build
@JinJinx and Tuna, Question, how is it that my armor jumps from 700ish (Damascus armor fully upgraded at MR 89 without being augmented) to 900ish when I use Defense Boost level 7? I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head but when I get home I'll edit this with the correct numbers. I'm just curious how this happens since going off of what you said mine should max out near the 800 range but I know for a fact that I hit somewhere between 925 - 975 using Defense Boost level 7 (only costs 2 deco slots to max out) when I look at my defense from the options menu. This is no food buff or consumable items used, no fortify either.
Hmm so i pretty much have 2000hp points, yet everything still wants to murder me and treat me like a chew toy 😂 For anyone wanting to know currently im sitting at 150hp 986df 24fire 30water 20thunder 24ice 42dragon
*Before watching* Time to see how I've been fuckin' up real hard by slotting in Def boost when there isn't much else I can put in when I already have DB and the like ;) *After watching* That's pretty fair. Never actually knew how defense was calculated. So, now time to slot in some health boost and speed eating 👍
I used the Damascus helm and a hard Def deco a lot, it helped for a good while before making better stuff, that alone gives lvl 6 Def and some other slots
Was any consideration when evaluating these numbers in consistently being able to survive certain more difficult to dodge monster attacks e.g. monster can no longer 1 2 hit you to death, but now you survive with a silver of hp?
As long as your defense isn't _too_ high, translating it into eHP (health/(1-(1-80/(80+defense)))) should give you that answer. By too high I mean that most games require the player to take at least 1 point of damage when they receive an attack. I'm sure Monster Hunter does this too and eHP has increasing returns since defense (thus damage reduction) has diminishing returns (see their inverse relationship in that equation).
Hello Jinx Jinx and Tuna! Are you guys gonna upload a complete guide on the guiding lands, and how to get augments and decos etc? That would be very helpful and owesome! Thanks for the great content! 👍🏻
Alright yall, let's make these trap builds. Hellish Slasher Attack 7 and Defense 7 and eat for Defense Up Large. Edit: Oh snap thanks for the likes, and the heart Jinx and/or Tuna. Happy hunting fellow hunters and huntresses! Byyeeeee Edit 2: Welp, I had a heart...
Considering defense 7 isn't worth it, sure. You get the most value out of 4 or 6. When I go from getting 2 shot by stuff to more than 3hko (with health 3 in both cases), defense boost isn't a trap.
Speed eating makes consumable use almost instant with lvl 3, it turns the long chug of mega potions into you basically smashing it on your face and being fully healed by it. And one level of free meal gives you a roughly 25% increase to your healing consumables so free meal is better than defence boost
I'm looking forward to "Sword & Shield is a Trap." I've been playing SnS exclusively for 9 years. I don't think I've ever had as tough a time as I have in Iceborne (unless we count underwater combat in 3U...). Would be nice to have some math to back that up or debunk it.
Nice to know half of my MR Grinding lands loadouts with Def boost 4-7 (depending on slots and charm usage) aren’t helping me too much 😭 I generally run Health Boost 3 anyways, so I’ll just use those level 4 slots from my Def boost +4 gems for other things. Tanks!
@@tmtlopes No dying for me, but thanks =). Not having to slot in defense boost (since my armor gets me to around 830-850 prior to it anyways) gives me more room for stun resist 3 and elemental resistance =)
Ok, first of, why, in my casual guiding lands brain-AFK grinding build, would I absolutly aim for Def UP 7? Def up 6 is just 2% less, same flat and ele res, also much easier to get with jewels. Now, I know that the main point is that Def up is worse option than most/all other defensive skills when used in "New Dwachen" armor, and yeah, definitly, as that is a pretty aggressive build in the first place and there its just not worth. However later in the video you make the point that even in "comfy" sets its never good, and I disagree. My current comfy grind build is 4x Gold Rathian and that obviously has Health Boost and True DB in it and those cumulativly are just a massive decrease in damage taken with Def Up 6, but even in my older set I ended up including Def Up 6 because there are other factors at play then just the pure math, such as downtime/ time to recover after getting hit and having to heal up, and the kinda reverse of effective health, the "how many hits does one Mega Potion heal". Here then things like speed eating and rec up also come into play, also of course Health augment. Back to the 4x (or even 2x) Gold Rathian set, because once you combine 200 health, def up 6, Divine blessing 5 and the Defense augments separate Divine Blessing like effect, a Health augments healing just gets better and better as it heals the same amount but you take less and less actual HP the more of that stuff you stack. And this, again, is for a comfy "grind guiding lands/ tempered investigations" build, is super valuable for a situation where you don't play ultra focused, since it affects factors like "how many hits [mistakes] can I take [make] before I have to stop attacking and heal up to be safe?" "Can I just heal this with Health aug by attacking, instead of healing up?" "Can I eat this hit but get my big damage spike in first, without risking a cart?" "Does my cat heal me enough with Vigorwasp that I can just keep being carelessly aggro?" All of these are things I absolutly care about then not going for fast, clean kills and Def Up certainly helps in all of these.
I have exactly that type of build, I run a 2 piece Gold Rath and 2 piece Vaal Alongside a max augmented namielle insect lance, with a heal dust kinsect Also insect lance gets a def buff with extracts Does it kill stuff fast? Not really, but it spams mounts, aoe heals, absolutely never dies, and when I play solo my cat handles doing dmg with volcano Great for casual grinding while doing something else
So in other words to make the skill reasonable its max level should be reduced from 7 all the way down to 3 (still applying what the current level 7 already would) and its 10% bonus should be the last thing applied taking into account ALL additive bonuses from ALL sources before applying a 10% bonus. And then even if it did all that it would likely still be worse than lvl 3 healthboost but at that point would at the very least be strong enough and give enough of a buff that it could be a valid option to consider if you want more defense after health boost.
And if you knew anything about diminishing returns, you'd know half of that 3300 defense was -useless- half as useful as the first half. It's awful hard to get that high and sacrifices the superior Health Boost and Divine Blessing while requiring a Hunting Horn user.
@@sharlesdaviskendy2391 I'm referencing my other comment on this matter. *TLDR*: Damage Reduction (DR) and Effective HP (eHP) are two sides of the same coin. There are multiple was to increase DR/eHP in the game. Defense is one, HP is a second, and Divine Blessing is a third. Focusing everything on Defense demonstrates diminishing returns when replacing 3 points for Divine Blessing will result in almost 2x more eHP. 1500 Defense with lvl 7 Defense Boost = 2963 eHP After accounting for the lower Defense for lvl 4 Defense Boost then lvl 3 Divine Blessing = 5610 eHP (when it procs). DR = 1 - (80 / (80 + Defense)) eHP = HP / (1 - DR), notice Defense gets flipped to the numerator when you substitute DR thus increasing returns. Therefore, Defense results in diminishing returns even though it's still raising eHP. Replacing for Health Boost displays this even more. However, games usually apply damage in terms of integers greater than 0. The game will only calculate DR when applying damage because going to and from eHP is just more work. So, DR * damage >= 1 in just about every game. eHP's increasing returns can hide this from the player and give them the sense that they are stronger than they are. "It's actually still pretty bad compared to Health Boost, Divine Blessing level 3, and Fortify (3 skills that add to 7 points). I couldn't figure out how the last 3 buffs factored into the defense so I'll leave those out. Given everything in the video until those 3 buffs (3:23), defense is calculated as so: ((1+920+12+18+35+50)*1.1*1.3*1.2)+115+15+15+100+25+20=2067.776 (rounded up to 2068). Removing the Hunting Horn, Heroics, and the Defense augmented weapon for a more realistic solo scenario gives: ((1+920+12+18+50+35)*1.1*1.3)+15+15+25+20=1556.48 (which would round to 1556). Notice Defense wasn't scaling those 2 forms of raw defense. Having eaten at the canteen, we would have 150 base health. This defense gives: 1-80/(80+1556.48)=95.11% damage reduction (DR) or 150/(1-.9511)=3068 eHP. After removing Defense and before replacing it with other skills we have: ((1+920+12+18+50)*1.3)+15+15+25+20=1376.3 (1376). Having eaten for 150 hp, this defense gives: 1-80/(80+1376.3)=94.5% damage reduction (DR) or 150/(1-.945)=2730 eHP. Now replacing the Defense lvl 7 for Health Boost lvl 3 and Divine Blessing lvl 3 (with a spare slot since Fortify is already in) gives: 94.5% DR (just more health) or 200/(1-.945)=3640 eHP when Divine Blessing doesn't proc and 1-(80/(80+1376.3)*0.5)=97.25% DR or 200/(1-(1-80/(80+1376.3)*.5))=7281 eHP when Divine Blessing does. Seeing as Defense can always be replaced with either of those 2 skill's decorations, it's still the worst defense skill in the game. The only way I could see using it would be to replace 3 of the useless elemental defense skills for the monster you're fighting to gain +5 raw defense and the +10% multiplier. Just for fun that gives (3 total empty deco slots): ((1+920+12+18+20+35)*1.1*1.3)+15+15+25+20=1513.58 (1514). 1-(80/(80+1513.58)*0.5)=97.48% DR or 200/(1-(1-80/(80+1513.58)*.5))=7967 eHP And now you've lost 7 slots for attack/utility skills (Marathon Runner, Constitution, Recovery Up) for a *marginal* *gain*. Edit: These values are a maximum for when your canteen gives you at least 5 fresh ingredients and you get Felyne Booster. Otherwise they're a little lower. Edit 2: I should also point out that these numbers are only for receiving a physical attack. An elemental attack will create another DR multiplier separate from defense. I'm not sure if the damage from an elemental attack is split between the physical and elemental portions thought, but I'd guess it would be since players damage is split like that (look at Critical Boost calculations)."
zecuse Defense does NOT get diminishing returns on Effective Health. That’s a misconception. Damage reduction’s effect on effective health grows *exponentially*, so to offset that armor’s effect on damage reduction grows logarithmic. The end result is that armor’s effect on effective health is *linear*. Consider. 0% to 50% damage reduction would double your effective health. But just raising damage reduction another 25% to 75% would double your Effective Health AGAIN. Raising another 12.5% would double it AGAIN. As damage reduction goes up, its effect gets incredibly powerful. The difference between 99% and 99.9% is MASSIVE, while the difference between 0% and 0.9% is negligible. Most games (Monster Hunter World included) use a X/(armor value + X) formula. That means at 0 armor you have 100% effective health and at X armor you have 200% effective health and at 2X armor you have 300% effective health and 3X you have 400% effective health and so on so forth. For every X armor you get the same amount of effective health. It’s growth is linear. No part of that 3000 Defense was wasted. The last 1500 Defense added the same amount of effective health as the first 1500... No diminishing returns here.
@@sharlesdaviskendy2391 And the point I'm trying to make is that banking everything on Defense to get that DR *is* demonstrating diminishing returns. That's a fact of mathematics. Dropping Defense Boost entirely for any amount of Health Boost (also explained in the video) and Divine Blessing will be better for eHP since you're introducing 2 new multipliers at the cost of the one you already have (raw Defense). The product of these 2 mults is greater than the amount lost from Defense Boost alone (2.377 times larger). Therefore, Defense Boost with its current values is complete shit.
Thank you! I do have 1 question tho, how do other %based defense boosts stack? Specially stacking HH Defense Large buff in conjunction with Def Boost 7
After two procs of fortitude, i get more than 1100 defense and tempered monsters still open up my ass in the GL, so i sort of figured out it was bad. But how bad, it's fun to see.
Meanwhile me running maxed out defense safi lance with max hb and db and max guard and guard up: still finishing most hunts inside of 15 minutes and basically never die. Strikes me as more of a speed running thing than a general ideal to work from. So many random people in my hunts be carting from light brushes with the monsters.
Divine blessing is also a trap though. Iirc it only activates 25% of the time, so 75% of the time you are extremely vulnerable. The point isn't to take the lowest amount of damage throughout the hunt, it's to not cart, and if you only have 25% chance of not getting one-shotted it's not great
Add recovery up, Vaal´s skill and you can probably just stand there and let the palico kill the monsters (equip the palico with healing equipment to go FURTHER BEYOND)
I eat for elemental resistance and just drink my mega armor/demondrug, it literally replaces eating for attack/defense (L), if not I eat for moxie or insurance.
They should make it so that the bonuses stack. The 5%/+10 from Level 3 should stack with the 5%/+20/+3 from Level 4, so on and so forth. Then at level 7 you'd effectively get +36%/+135Def/+16Res. That sounds a lot more worthwhile.
Hey jinx, I’m using the the HH attack song 3 for the utility. Stamina attack def. and wind pressure. I put some defense gems in there to push it to about 1200 def. is that still worthless against say the recovery boost from attack song 2 ?
I don't use defense boost much either now that I'm into that end game gear.. but what about 5 defense boost and 2 health boost (assuming you can only fit 7 points into the build).. Would that be better than 3 health boost and 4 defense boost or any other combo? Most of those other skills you mention don't reduce the damage you take, preventing wombo combos from taking you out. They just fix the damage you do take faster.
Divine Blessing is more efficient than Defense Boost (even with the RNG aspect), so you should have max Health Boost and max Divine Blessing before even thinking about slotting in Defense Boost.
@@Heisenberger_29 Fortunately for that argument, you rarely need either to save your life. But if you did, I'd rather take the one that will always save your life over the one that might fail the quest for you.
@Tuhalu But Defense Boost will not always save your life (at least not more than Divine Blessing), because it’s not a very good or efficient skill. It’s true that once in a blue moon Divine Blessing will let you die to a one-shot attack when Def Boost wouldn’t, BUT there are two things to consider: 1. Not every monster attack is a one-shot. 2. Over the course of multiple hunts (5, 10, 20 or more hunts), Divine Blessing 3 will keep you alive just as much as Defense Boost 7, but at a smaller cost of deco slots, Or, if you compare Blessing 3 to Def Boost 3 (same amount of levels), then Blessing 3 is much better and will literally keep you alive more. Period. Here’s an analogy: let’s say that a build has 50% affinity and Crit Boost 3. When people calculate its damage, they consider that the 50% affinity with CB3 is a 20% damage increase. Why? Because in some hunts it might increase your damage by 17-19% and in some by 21-23%, but over the course of multiple hunts it evens out at 20%. Does this mean that Attack Boost 7 is better because it’s constant? Hell no, affinity with CB is better. Similarly, Blessing is better than Def Boost even with the RNG aspect taken into consideration.
@Tuhalu A 12.5% RNG mitigation that costs 3 lvl1 slots is still better than a 12.39% constant mitigation that costs 7 lvl1 slots. You said yourself in your original comment that wombo combos are what kills us, so we’re not talking about literal one-shot attacks where you only have a 25% chance to survive, we’re talking about sequences of 2-6 attacks, so Blessing makes a big difference. Keep in mind that you can usually escape wombo combos by superman diving or waiting a bit before getting back up or getting away from the monster so you can heal etc.. If you eat up wombo combos left and right, then you’re going to cart no matter if you have Blessing 3 or Def Boost 7. Attacks that one-shot you at full hp with HB3 are so rare that I don’t even know if they exist, and if they exist, then they are so telegraphed that you should never be getting hit by them.
I only run defense boost in a meme immortal set that ALL the defensive skills maxed out. It does ok-bad damage but never has to stop attack to heal. I know that it isnt even remotely meta or efficient.
*rips bong* now let's take max defense boost, combined with divine protection, hp boost, speed eating, and as many elemental resists as possible and not fuckin die dude
Im running with, lv 7 def lv 3 health boost lv 5 divine blessing, lv 7 crit eye lv 3 wex lv 3 critboost lv 3 stun resist + other skills. Can survive getting hammered by tempered savage deviljho while still having good dmg. Master touch build with damascus helm + garuga greaves +3pcs teostra. Same skills but no divine blessing.
Elemental resistance 3 is very important. A scuffed bow build with thunder Defense 3 can take a direct nuclear blast from Kirin and not even be half health
I honestly think that they should make it so that defense boost lowers the damage you take by a fixed percentage, say for example 20% in addition to the elemental defense increases. That would instantly make it viable, no?
I strongly disagree with you on that video, ofc hp-boost is better but everyone knows that, how ever after that I think its a good defensive skill you can argue if divine blessing is better or not because divine blessing is RNG but defens boost is not a bad defensiv skill
SIghs. Im gonna debunk this right now and try to mitigate any damage this is gonna cause cuz im tired of seeing 2-3 shot wonders 3x carting and making me regret putting up a SoS to make things more fun instead of just soloing the damn hunt myself. I been playing a Defensive, Dual Blade build from the very start in MHW On PS4, then redid it all again on PC when it came out, all the way into MR100+ Iceborne on PC. Defense Boost back in Vanilla was pretty weak, but I used it anyway and still saw a difference, now with its buff? I see a even greater difference. I been with Hunters of many many different builds, some streamlined, some trash, some weird, and some clever. But the most common I seen is those at least having 3 Vitality and at least one set of resist giving element protection with some bonus defense. Difference between any and all of these hunters compared to me who was always rocking the highest defense possible is, and my friends who played with me, and the one player who I do 70 percent of my hunts with can all say with certainty: I can take 5-8 hits before death, while they can only take 2-3. Ever since my first foray into Monster Hunter which was the Monster Hunter 3 games, Tri and then Ultimate if I remember correctly, was a long time ago. I always incorporated max damage builds, in Tri I was SnS, and used a Status Infliction high damage build. In Ultimate when Dual Blades came out, again went with a high damage build. It was what everyone else was doing, and everyone would only be able to take 3 hits before death. Getting hit is inevitable, does not matter at all how good you are or how well you dodge, I seen players constantly play it safe and back away when they know an attack is coming, and I seen players risk it and try to Invuln Frame or last second avoid to get that DPS uptime in. I seen players cart constantly due to getting a string of bad luck and getting ULTRA COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOED....its really just being hit 3 times in a row. I seen players get hit, drink a potion back to max, get hit again from something they could not avoid, drink a potion, go back in, get hit AGAIN cuz monster wanted to give you a bad time instead of the other 3 hunters, is stunned, gets comboed and carts. Fact of the matter is, the A.I can be B.S. And you cant expect other hunters to get you out of stun lock or to carry Wide area heal items. I even seen players who assumes if a SnS user is in the group, hes gonna be a Paladin build and constantly heal everyone, only to get 3 shot like an idiot waiting for that supposed heal.... Thus in MHW I got tired of dealing with risk, dealing with B.S, etc. Thus I made Defensive no B.S builds. And guess what? I can outdps practically anybody who isnt use the same Dual Blade build. I can outdps this content creator who made this video here, I can outdps his buddies. I can very likely outdps most of any of you. Why? Because I am rocking a High Defensive, High Regen build which allows to me stay on nearly all monsters arses for near 99 percent up-time. I rarely ever have to run away to suck down a potion and if I do? Its a Max potion then back into it again. I always use L Defense food or L Element Resist food based on what I am fighting, and I have several different Loadouts for my equipment and decos also based on what I am fighting. When in the hunt I always use both Mega Demon Drugs, I carry with me Temporal Mantle, always, and I switch between Iron, Vit, or elemental protection mantle depending on what I am fighting. Lunastra? Bet your ass im taking that Fire. Nergigante? Hell yea Iron. Rap song Shara? *look at the Something About MHW IB parody video* I take Vit, since Iron is suicidal to use against him. Before every fight I also make sure to use my Mega Nutrients to get that 200 health as needed, and I always use Dash Extract and Immunizer. If I take any damage, my Regen along with Vaal Hazaak two piece Ability, will quickly heal it, sometimes Ill even just stay on the ground after a large hit just to regen most of it back before getting up and tearing into the monster again. Ill also regen my health just from constant attacking due to Health Regen on my Blades, something EVERY HUNTER SHOULD HAVE. So once again, while most hunters are running off to suck on their 5th, 9th, 15th, 24th, 30th, Mega Potion, believe me people carry the mats on hand just to make more or farcaster back to camp to grab more....I will be on the Monsters Ass doing at minimum 35 percent of the entire groups combined damage. Most times 40-45 percent. The only draw back to all this? My right hand hurts, alot, since unlike most other dual blades, I dont get to stop mashing like they do when they are drinking a potion or sharpening. Since I also rock 4-5 handicraft and a Sharp Jewel as well. So in the end you are wondering, how much Defense skill do I have? Well at this time, with Food buff and Mega Armorskin, I can get up to 1160 defense....and thats with Lv6 Defense Skill. 3 from my Damascus Beta Helm, and 1 single Hard Defense Deco in it...that grants 3 defense skill. Yea thats right, I only need ONE deco slot, to get +6 defense. Im also using anywhere from 1-2 LV3 Elemental Resist skills, I switch them out depending on the monster. I also have Handicraft 4, can have 5 depending on the weapon I am using, Free Element 3, again can switch out. Got Protection 3, Recovery Speed 3, Recovery Up 2. Agitator, Evade Window 1, Agitator, Peak Performance, also have LV4 Critical Eye and other skills. I can have anywhere from 30-45 affinity based on the weapon I am using, and I wreck anything I have my sights set on without fear of being B.Sed. I can at any time with a little resist and defense loss, put in Stun Resist 3 as well. But I hardly ever need it, but doing so would really give me the absolute full on no B.S build. Guys this content creator is apparently also a Vaper. Im sure he means well, but he obviously never had any true experience with defensive builds. The difference between my 1160 defense, only obtainable using at least 6 defense skill cuz without it, I lose about 200 defense. And those who only run around with 890-950 defense, well its huge. I seen it with my own eyes, so has all my friends with me over hundreds of hours of playing this game and its just absolute fact. If your still not convinced? Try it yourself. I only really recommend a Defensive build on weapons that requires you to commit high uptime like SnS, Dual Blades, Hunters Bow, Longsword, and Charge Blade as some examples. But I seen slow heavy hitting weapon users utilize defensive builds too. Welp, I hope I deterred some of you from staying as 3 shot triple cart wonders. Its real easy to get Defense 6 thanks to Hard Defense Decos. While still getting all the Attack skills you want. But well its your game, your way to play, do as you want.
Arda Vila it takes time to learn the timing, but monsters give hints for when to roll actually. A lot of monsters will move a leg back slightly before a roar. There’s some videos on RUclips for roar timing.
![JinJinx and Tuner [Mathalos Gaming]](http://yt3.ggpht.com/ytc/AIdro_me3UB_3x7aN1S8SdcFePUXoOQeETVgzG0R_Mtgx5hQNQ=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj)
Looking forward to the "pitfall is a trap" video.
Not even the math guys will stop me from using it.
Wait is the pitfall not good or something?
Shock is the true trap
Lol I'm starting to doubt his math.
This comment caught me off guard, I got a great laugh
I run the Zinogre HBG because "this is a game and I am meant to enjoy myself".
Agreed. After carting so many times and using a lockon camera with melee weapons to fight rathalios/rathian/bazel/yian subspecies, I'm looking forward to using it too!
@@trevinsingh9390 I've been using it, but I'd never used a bowgun before so I suck. I've been carting basically once per hunt with it. I'll get better with it though
@@Marksmaan Yeah, I've never really liked the ranged weapon options in this, but figured I'd give it a shot. I can see how it makes runs cakewalk-easy if you have some idea of what you're doing (and have all the necessary decos to build it in the first place), but when you're still at the "how do I set up my radial menu for convenient ammo crafting on the fly" stage of learning to use ammo weapons, it's at best going to break even with your current hunting times with whatever weapon(s) you're accustomed to using, and probably with more carts on the way.
This seems especially true if, like me, you tend to hunt without the extras: minimal buffs, using traps just to capture rather than for creating dps windows, etc. I tried using it on Gold Rathian and she just wiped the floor with me because there was rarely a time I could get any decent damage in on her without getting stomped, and the occasional potshot into her wings/tailtip isn't going to produce impressive spreadsheet-based dps. Went back to greatsword, hacked off tail, crushed head, shattered wings, gg.
@@Marksmaan I want to try out JinJinx's build with the 3 shield mod for lance shield, 5 plus to guard and guard up. I've even seen people using offensive guard a lot with those HBGs and since I think the skill is a waste on anything except great swords and charge blade (IMHO), it's nice to have it on a high damage dealing weapon that can activate it easily
@@ShjadeNexayre the point of sharing that is it isn't exactly an easy button. Its satisfying but the level of which it punishes you for getting greedy is worse than even games like Sekiro. It's ridiculous. It certainly has it's down sides, but when you lock down a monster, you melt it. It helps to have decoys...I mean teammates...to soften parts cuz the HBG clutch attack takes forever. I've had downs that didn't last long enough to soften a part.
Niiiiice my "It's a trap !" build is taking form.
I lol'd a bit too hard at this one.
Lv7 attack boost and lv7 defense boost. Nice
AB 7, DB 7, Bludgeoneer sets ahoy!
@@JinJinxandTuna OH the memes...
Get all the trap skills and make your male character pretty and girly or a famale character a manly beard lol
I think this one shouldn't have taken a Defense Boost vs. Divine Blessing/Health Boost/etc. approach, and it would have been much more useful if you analyzed/covered how Defense Boost actually stacks (or doesn't stack) with the other defensive skills. For example, I think many hunters have found a build with lvl 7 Defense Boost (which only takes up two gear slots really) in conjunction with lvl 5 Divine Blessing and lvl 3 Health Boost, as well as other defensive skills to be very effective. Big fan of the work you do, but I think propping up any skill as a "trap" based solely on its individual contribution to a build might lead to hunters overlooking synergies they'd find really useful. MHW is loaded with skills meant to be woven together after all!
if the deco cannot stand solely on it own contribution and require others it would effectively not be even worth a 1:1 ratio comparison to other deco. Which is why he explain ehp
my concern is why would dev design something to be completely useless
Also in interested in how it effects chip damage when guarding
@@TimeManInJail if that's the case then crit boost is a trap, because without critical eye and attack boost it can't stand on its own. Same for crit eye, without attack boost and crit boost it's not that good.
There are, afaik, a few skills that can stand in there own without support and aside from ATB they are all QOL skills. So op's comment stands
@@popitrekker1543
but that's because of the Crits being a Final Multiplier in the end. that's what makes us want to Crit more often, because the effect adds another Multiplier rather than having to deal with the effective diminishing returns of Additive Bonuses.
in game Stats, relative bonuses is literally the only thing that matters. if it's a higher relative bonus, it's better, no more thinking needed. if it's not, then it isn't useful.
so increasing the Multipliers that you have the smallest amount of already, is almost always the best decision. more small-medium Multipliers is always better then few large Multipliers.
@@taiiat0 my reply to John was in the fact that he said that "if a skill can't stand on its own with no help from another skill then it's a trap" your reply actually supports my claim because without crit boost, crit eye, and ATB working together to provide a higher end benefit, they each, by John's logic, are a trap
This math is useless unless youre an above average player/speed runner and arent getting continuously slapped like the average random. On paper defense 7 isnt worth in practice its why im still standing watching the rest of you get carted
It only worth it under special circumstances, for example to pass certain threshold to avoid getting one shot to two shot, two shot to three shot and so on. Although its not completely useless like majority of players said, its still not advisable to always use it outside these circumstances, aka niche. But still, its up to the players.
I'm learning more about math on a monster hunter guide than I did in school.
Facts
I applied the info from the "attack boost trap" video and experienced an immediate and considerable change in my hunts. I'm excited to digest this video. Great content y'all!
Oh no not the skill I haven’t used since I got my first charm.
Now I’m gonna run defense boost 7 and attack boost 7
I did that my boi. Its great
Trap build
So... Health Boost 3, Divine Blessing 5, recovery up 3, recovery speed 3, and Defense Boost 7?
With 2pc Vaal and Luna/Nerg weapon
Divine blessing 5 is ruining the game for me. I haven't even touched the golden lune set with any upgrades and even with base stats, enemy attacks are a joke. Using the head and chest, but I'll probably switch something out, maybe legs but the slots for Vaal arms and belt are too good, plus super recovery!
@@trevinsingh9390 I forgot about them!
@@trevinsingh9390 the vaal helm is nice since peak performance is a nice damage boost, it's easy to slot in the third level, and it has a ton uptime with this kind of build. I run it with the gloves.
Trevin Singh i wonder how devine blessing works with ranged weapons
I see your clearing up misconceptions before October 10th becomes a nightmare
I never looked forward to a nightmare so much.
I'm gonna be slamming and jamming
@@valcristPL my favorite monster is coming
@@SilverTwinkle XD make shure rajang doesn't bring his dunking skills
@@NeocrimsonX Oh he will. but i've got a buddy with a sticky hbg. So that thing is gonna be stunlocked.
Just pointing out that I find converting stuff like Evade Window and Speed Eating into eHP kind of spooky. If say Evade Window let you dodge 10% of the attacks that would hit you on average, then against a troublesome attack that deals 100% of your eHP in damage it would save you 10% of the time, while a 10% eHP boost would save you always. The opposite happens if you're usually killed by 2 hits dealing 80% of your eHP - a small eHP boost does nothing, dodging 10% of the time saves you more than 10% of the time since you get 2 shots to dodge.
So comparing eHP and evasion seems to me to require agreeing on a distribution of different possibly lethal situations the monster imposes on you - something that is highly situational, probably also player-dependent, and would also probably make calculations into a nightmare. Speed eating seems even trickier since it diminishes the window the monster has to impose a possibly lethal situation on you, and there are so many variables involved (sheathe time, interval between attacks in the dangerous situation, etc) I can't see any numerical sense being made.
@Josh derp Yea I still agree Defense Boost 7 does not seem good. Just thinking about whether the methodology of converting them to eHP is always the right way to go for comparison.
Although in hindsight I now see that the evasion interpretation pretty much perfectly parallels Divine Blessing, so assuming one accepts considering Divine Blessing in terms of eHP they should also accept Evade Window. The point I made seems to therefore be moreso pointing the limits of using eHP as a metric for things that are random (but again there doesn't really seem to be a good alternative since as I talked, taking into account the randomness would likely complicate things beyond belief).
Speed eating I still don't see at all to fit the eHP framework, though.
@@PT8Sceptile I don't think defence boost is as bad as investment as he says because if you are running it all you need is 5 points from the charm and 2 points from a hard jewel as appose to running a handicraft charm so its either a 12% defence boost from DB or a 5% attack increase from the handicraft charm as I feel with most of the skills in the game the dps increase is really insignificant and unnoticeable even with a 100% crit build that's 13 points of investment for a 40% dps increase
so is that 40% damage increase worth the amount of time your going to spend chuging potions, curing blights and respawning? when you could be tanking all of it?
@@tannermilo ye I agree with this. They put out good stuff but let's face it, it's head knowledge not practical wisdom.
I don't like converting evade window into eHP because I'm absolutely dogshit at dark souls rolling through attacks
@@tannermilo Opportunity cost. What do you leave behind to equip this 5 defense charm? Something way better.
Defence Boost should be similar to old Crit Eye.
1) 3% +5
2) 6% +10
3) 9% +15
4) 12% +20
5) 15% +25
6) 20% +30
7) 25% +35
Yeah those values would actually make it a worthwhile skill.
They don’t spec the numbers based on damage reduction. They spec is based on what attacks you can survive. Basically defense boost 7 will let you survive certain attack you otherwise wouldn’t. They do t want you “tanking” monster attacks in master rank
@@oriondye3212 I truly don't believe that's the case. MHW and Iceborne are exceptionally well crafted, but sometimes the devs do just drop the ball on balance, whether extremely overtuning (like with Zinogre HBG) or undertuning (defense up food skill and Defense Boost). A close to perfect game can still have flaws.
At its current level, there's really situations where Defense Boost will give you enough defense to survive an extra hit - besides low MR monsters. Even using Fortify x2 - a boost of 30% - a Gunner can still be 2HKO'ed by some non-tempered 6-star monsters. When they're tempered, running 7 Defense Boost is about as useful as running 7 Paracoat. Hyperbole aside, it's not very helpful is what I'm getting at.
WEx has high strengths with no real weakness, and should be prioritized first over maximum might even when running Max Might secret. Sometimes Capcom has really strong skills, and sometimes they have skills that largely waste your time.
Raymond Santiago I never said the skill wasn’t a waste of time, but it’s not useless. Most of the higher end tempered mobs utilize elemental attacks anyways, so defense is mostly useless for them, and lower end mobs simply don’t hit hard enough to warrant it. About the only mobs o can think of where it might be useful is with black diablos super charges keeping you from getting one shot, but she chains them so fast you’ll still get two shot. So ya situational at best and useless at worst.
Next video “weapons are traps!”
I was incredibly proud of having def7 but i showed it to my cousin and he laughed harder than the joker
I dunno I've seen some builds where you can go afk and a savage jho will rage quit before it can kill you 😂
Rage had divine blessing and rock steady, darkside had 3000+ defense.
Thats probably mostly because of divine blessing lvl 5 reduces 60% of damage per each hit instead of a chance to hit activation
RUclips Enigma he didn’t even need rock steady. Rock steady was actually making him take more damage since he wasn’t getting knocked back by attacks
Defense boost isnt bad per say, but it definitely shouldnt be a priority
Once you have all the other relevant skills, then defense boost just stacks on top
I saw that video too. Did rage not have fortify active twice ?
I don't disagree, but in Monster Hunter there's a big difference between having 1 HP and 0 HP and no difference between 1HP and 100HP. When you have 1 HP, you can still move around, drink potions, evade attacks, etc. It's not a game where your movement and attack speed get cut in half when you're down to 10HP or less. That's why the defense boost wasn't designed to be that great of a skill. It's not designed so that you take dramatically much less damage, it's designed such that an attack that deals 100 damage before, now does 95 damage. If that 100 damage would have killed you, now you survive with 5HP instead.
That's also why that +50HP from health boost goes such a long way.
boom, you hit the nail. and since carting usually occurs in one, two, or three hits, surviving even ONE extra hit makes a huge difference.
If you were being hit 30 times without being able to heal, the math in the vid would make more sense. but you're not.
So whatever gives you the "edge," and that includes Defense Boost.
On PreIceborne era, with ArchTempered monsters all was been true: oneshoted attacks even with 500+ armor and difficult ways to bypass this problems. But now, with 900+ armor, you can even faceroll agressive mosters with Rocksteady Mantle and Clutch Attack his head EVEN IF HE READY TO ATTACK YOU.
So, if players are still on high ranks (don`t have money to buy DLC), then you are right. If player is Master Rank, JinJinx is right
@@PrototypeMajor no jinx is still right regardless. Jinx said it himself in the video, you don't have infinite deco slot and mind you defense skill need to be level 7 to be somewhat "decent". You better off again like jinx said with lvl 3 health boost and lvl 3 divine blessing (6 slot vs 7 slot) and if your argument is about 1 hp you can still heal etc AGAIN which is better having max health of 200 or 150? It is a shit skill just admit it, they should've buff it to 15% or 20% at level 7 because of how much it cost
I love these math videos, and you can learn a lot about the game from them. And I agree that taking it as your be all end all defense skill at an ENTIRE 7 points is quite errg. Some of you reading may want math in the elemental resist. From 0 to 5 your effective health pool in the first situation would raise from 2092.5 to 2202.63 against elements. 340.756 higher than non Def-7. or 18.3%. A thing to note is that it also increases the effective amount of health you regain from potions as each point of health is worth more. So both your health and recovery are up by around ~15-16% given not all attacks are elemental. Instead you could use 2 points of health boost and 2 points of recovery up for 20% in both instead of ~15-16%. Loved the video, just wanted to add more info for those who were curious.
DEF boost weaker tahn Health Boost? then i'll go both :^)
But I swear I’ve heard defense boost is actually “good” now thanks to the % increase.
imahaloguy better than it was before definitely
It is specially paired with fortify in guiding lands makes farming it a lot more efficient when your not carting every to seconds.
If you have a high resistance to something ex. fire, then defense +7, + 3 points of fire resist can prevent you from being set on fire. Same with the other elements, but I think the value has to be over 10 - 12
If youre carting every 2 seconds, you need to get good
I heard that too. This guy always counters what TDS says😂
But Jinx, if you're running non-drachen, you need to consider how free defense boost is on armor pieces. The devs took into account its usability, which is why armor pieces in MR with defense boost built in have slot efficiency of 7.
Attack Boost 7
Defense boost 7
Bludeoner
Peak 3
Resentment 5
Top quality build.
@@jono9041 bludgeoner is shit the damage boost happens at green sharpness
@@danielgreen8999 go with Acid Glavenus hammer
Never seen the posted time in seconds before. Feels good
Defense Boost is a trap... Carts against non tempered Zinogre
Jin Jinx: math this math that
TeamDarkside: hold my calculator
To be honest! XD
Oh great. Another very original "Hold My Beer" comment.
@@fawzanfawzi9993 issa joke my guy. As long as it makes people like me laugh, its alright 😗
Yet calculator was wrong on LS.
Yeah but tds is actually good at the game unlike these guys
This game is a trap, i've been playing it for total of 1100 hours (since base game) and can't get back to real world.
I run defense 7 against tempered Rajang and it DOES make a difference, and not a tiny one
Defense boost +7, protection +5, steadfast +3, health boost +3 is the only way
Tom Nguyen this my fav build all time
Me running defense boost and eating defense, oh I see
what about defense augment, there's that stackable hidden Divine Blessing
Yeah I'm curious if this is any good. I heard it was decent, and its only 1 slot right?
Its actually surprisingly strong, the defense gsined is negligible, but the hidden divine blessing is legit
Definitely worth having 1-2in a weapon if you can fit it, reduces damage by alot and happens pretty often
It's also practical to know more about the numbers behind the augment's divine blessing, but we probably need to wait until the PC release for proper testing.
Gerrad Foo it procs 60% of the time, that with health boost had me running around a black veil Vaal with dual blades like i knew how to use them ( and i still got him down in sub 20)
“New Dwachen.”
SunLovin Solaire I rolled me eyes when I heard that and said “oh god here we go again” lol.
You guys are great at math and finding variables hidden in the game and I’m a big fan of that but boy you guys are terrible at interpreting the data you have.
Defense Boost is NOT a trap. It’s a balanced defensive skill with positives and negatives.
Yes, Health Boost 3 increases your Effective Health more than Defense Boost 7. But the way they do it IS relevant.
See raising armor will increase the effectiveness of each health point, which in turn affects every single interaction with it. It applies the first time you get hit and it applies to everything that *heals you.*
Defense Boost increases your healing. Items, Health augments, Super Recovery, Recovery Up, Recovery Speed, Speed Eating... Anything that affects healing will be stronger with Defense Boost because each point of HP you heal actually heals more Effective HP.
Health Boost 3 only affects you if your HP is below 50. As long as your HP is above that, the skill does nothing. Compared to Defense Boost 7, Health Boost 3 is ONLY more useful when your HP is below 32 (since Defense Boost 7 increases your Effective Health by 12.39%, then 150 Health becomes relatively 169.585 Health).
In your video you claim Health Boost 2 is better than Defense Boost 7, but again, that’s only true if your HP hits below 12. At any point above that, Health Boost 2 either does nothing or is equally effective to Defense Boost 7.
Finally, Defense Boost stacks with Health Boost. They make each other stronger. Same with other defensive skills. They actually work better together than the sum of their parts.
Now, Defense Boost 7 IS harder to slot in than Health Boost. Welcome to balancing. But it isn’t a trap. It just works differently...
So what you're essentially saying is, Defense Boost amplifies recovery skills, since you take less damage, and thus recover health 'faster' from potions, as compared to health boost.
While that is a valid point, it's extremely niche:
1. Max Potions are a thing. Bringing crafting materials for 12 Max Potions is standard, and insta-heals are unaffected by such a comparison.
2. Even if you were to heal normally through potions, Defense Boost 7 requires such an obscenely large amount of deco space, that just slotting in Recovery Up 3 (30% more effective healing) and Health Boost 3 (+50 Health) is not only superior in terms of Effective Health and healing effectiveness, but also less deco heavy (6 levels vs 7 levels).
The ONLY time when defense boost has a legitimate use, is when you're stacking all these defensive options together. As you said, they do synergise, and make each other stronger. However, most comfy sets only run 1 - 2 defensive skills (Max of ~6 levels), as any more severely decreases your damage output. Defense Boost is way too expensive to fit, considering that other defensive skills can achieve the same results for much, much less.
You're right, it does work differently: In an inferior way, to the extent that it can be considered a 'trap'.
Whyisthisathing Not so much faster as... More effective. But sure, you get it.
Max Potions are great but not your sole source of healing. Healing Augments are still a thing. And most players use Mega Potions for the resource save.
As for skill efficiency... Sorta? There is not Vitality+ Jewel and no Hard Vitality Jewel. You can get Defense Boost 6 out of two gem slots, which you can’t really do with Health Boost and Recovery BUT the latter 2 can combine with other skills you want.
They are different skills doing different things at different costs. That’s how balance works.
A “trap” is a skill that’s strictly worse than another option. Defense Boost has advantages and disadvantages compared to other defensive skills...
When it comes to skill point investment, yes def boost is a trap.
I believe that is the point they are trying to make, and glossed over it in favor of the “effective health” argument, which doesn’t make as much sense as “instead of 7 levels of def boost, do Y and use those extra four slots on a damage skill. Damage is king. “If you kill it before it can hit you, it’s dead.” -Vampirecosmonaut
Kinda got what you are putting out, until you went and did " Health Boost 2 either does nothing or is equally effective to Defense Boost 7." which without any context at all, hands down gives HB the advantage. 2 v 7 is a no brainer.
xupPer223 The context is the video claiming Health Boost 2 is better than Defense Boost 7...
Theoretically, yeah sure, Defense Boost is a bad skill, but practically, it's always a good addition to a defensive build which increases your survivability.
Setting up the player base up for failure
This is just not good advice for most players. There are alot of non-edge cases especially at high levels with endgame armors against endgame enemies where running defense boost 7 can save you from carting. Not to mention the fact that in a situation where you are talking about 1-2 hit KOs, divine blessing is totally unreliable since its just a straight 25% chance to proc, in other words a 75% chance to do nothing. Meaning its usually going to do you zero good in endgame situations, same with things like speed eating. Does you zero good if you cart before you can heal. I do agree you should prioritize health boost over defense boost but its easy to run both especially in master rank. If anything divine blessing is a trap because in late master rank its going to provide zero value at least 50% of the time. That said im not going to criticize anyone who says "its a game, play how you want to play", because honestly that's the correct answer. I usually run straight damage boosting abilities end game in a lot of MH games when playing solo because I can confidently run most hunts within the time limit without getting hit by any major attacks (especially in Rise because they thought it was a good idea to make the hunters faster and more mobile than the mosters which is fun, but not really monster hunter). If you are running DB or HH depending on your play style you may want to run every possible defensive ability and nothing else, where if you main LBG you may not want any defensive abilities, especially in a 4 hunter team where you can easily hang back and provide nearly maximum DPS without ever having to worry about getting hit. It just depends, but the answer definitely isn't "defense boost is a trap" especially if you consider divine blessing viable.
"its super simple" followed by long complicated equation
Jokes on you, I have max defense boost, health boost, and divine blessing
I have actually done that. You NEVER die.
Made a build like that with dv blessing secret, vaal soulvein and nergigante ambition with all health skills and max defense boost.
I dont have to use potions anymore.
I made a set with 2 pieces nergigante, 2 pieces val hazaak with a health regen 3 weapon. Try it. Honestly.
Yeah tank build for the win. I just wish there was a way to draw aggro consistantly. Like challenger mantle not busting on blocked hits
Fatalis and AT Verkhana laugh at every tank build.
Dude your videos rock , i run atk and defense 7 on most builds and you really look out and now I’m all crit eye and crit boost
Now this is math that's useful!
Finally, a perfect explanation of the
Defense, Elemental Res, Health, etc!
In my opinion, Elemental Res Jewels are better than the Defense Jewels - you only need 3 Gems of Elemental Resistance, as opposed to 7 Def Gems - to get a Defense Boost. 5 Elements, 3 Gems each =
15 Slots × 3 Elemental Res Gems per Slot
(10 Def on top of 20 Elem Res) = 50 extra Defense, on top of 20 Res per Element.
I agree on the food buffs -
Elemental Res Foods seem to give better results.
Nice piano in the background.
Agreed with the defensive skill slots being more useful for other stuff.... but ugh, please do not suggest defensive rng over consistent numbers. It's the burst damage that will kill you, not the dps.
Effective health is a compelling stat but the game is more concerned with is whether or not you can survive long enough so you can break off to heal (that usually translates to "can you be one-shotted or not?"). If you can live long enough to heal then you can survive 100% of the time (barring death by animation lock). Sometimes, the defense skill (plus max Vitality) is necessary to hit that threshold. Even if rng defense allows you to effectively tank double the number the number of hits, the law of averages means you're often not going to be able to break off to heal before getting carted, effectively making the survival rate of rng-based defense lower than defense skill.
In the end, any effective mathematical analysis of the defense skill must include data on all the monsters' strongest attacks (or most common two-shot kills) and whether or not you can survive eating one without the defense skill on. (Assuming you remembered to put max health boost first).
That's false because you don't need to survive every attack in the game. There is a reason those attacks one shot you, you're not supposed to be hit by them. Teo's Nova, Nerg's Dive, Diablos' Charge. These attacks are there to punish Hunters that aren't paying attention to the fight, or over commiting when they shouldn't be. Once you learn your openings and monster tells, you stop being hit by those attacks. That's why we typically don't recommend Guard Up, for the exact same reason.
@@JinJinxandTuna I No, i'm not talking about those, but there are plenty of other attacks that you just wont survive unless your effective hp is past a certain threshold. Add to those those times you're not totally topped off for one reason or another. Add to those, those unlucky two hit strings that we all sometimes get caught in no matter how good we are. I'm sure you can see how being able to consistently tank even one extra hit is huge to your survivability.
In addition to my other reasons, here's a big one I neglected to mention: having predictable damage mitigation can help you better assess when your health is critically low and needs to be topped off. This is not only a defensive benefit but an offensive one as well since it can result in longer (safe) uptime.
Good to know. I do like a Comfy build but I've obviously been over-rating Def Boost, won't be eating for def up any more.
went to see the blacksmith to ask him to craft me a defense charm but then he looks at me like im crazy
Nice video! I do feel like implying speed eating is comparable to defense boost 7 is a bit disengenous though, they function on such different axis. Would have loved for some discussion of fortify, both against defense boost and how it stacks/interacts with it.
So how would Vaal Soulvein, Recovery Up/Speed 3, and Health Augment 1 affect this? My current set has those (also Peak Performance 3 for damage purposes) and was wondering how good the survivability is with those.
Even with the RNG aspect, Divine Blessing just seems more applicable in all situations if you actually need defensive options beyond Vitality and other utility skills.
That's the thing, its RNG, so its not super reliable as compared to health boost
@@MrThejograt literally almost always get it. Its RNG sure, but it occurs often enough at least for me to be considered reliable
Yeah, that's why although health boost is still the better defensive skill, divine blessing isn't that bad, especially when paired with health boost, both of those combined can do more work than 300 more defense or whatever defense boost can provide
But ofc, the reason why health boost is still better is because its 100% reliable, but that should be common knowledge by now
Divine Blessing 5 procs at 50% rate. So when it comes to taking big attacks, you are basically flipping a coin as to whether you survive (i.e, a tempered nova, tempered bazel purple bomb, etc.)
But over the long run of small attacks, you will definitely see a return. Especially if you're using rocksteady. The big question regarding defense boost is simply: Why not. It literally costs 1 deco and a charm to get in. The only reason you would squirm over putting it in is if you want all the damage meta stuff. And if you want that, chances are you should just concentrate on not getting hit and sticking with Health Boost.
Divine Blessing Lv5 and the whole Gold Rath Armor is insane!!
I feel like this doesn't take into account that short of hb3 and if it procs db, the other skills wont effect your ability to not die outright. sure faster red health recovery is nice, but only if you're alive to recover it, same with speed eating. The point is defense has its own niche, and does things other skills won't. Not to mention skills on armor pieces which can lead to better efficiency for certain builds. Is it overkill to run health 3, divine 5, and defense 7, maybe, but it'll keep you alive against even the toughest of monsters.
Except tempered Lunastra and tempered Gold Rath
But those 2 are in a league of their own, cause even Tempered Rajang I can stare down with that kind of build
@JinJinx and Tuna,
Question, how is it that my armor jumps from 700ish (Damascus armor fully upgraded at MR 89 without being augmented) to 900ish when I use Defense Boost level 7? I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head but when I get home I'll edit this with the correct numbers. I'm just curious how this happens since going off of what you said mine should max out near the 800 range but I know for a fact that I hit somewhere between 925 - 975 using Defense Boost level 7 (only costs 2 deco slots to max out) when I look at my defense from the options menu. This is no food buff or consumable items used, no fortify either.
Running defense boost over health boost is insane
Hmm so i pretty much have 2000hp points, yet everything still wants to murder me and treat me like a chew toy 😂
For anyone wanting to know currently im sitting at 150hp 986df 24fire 30water 20thunder 24ice 42dragon
Good of you to explain this for new players. I always have to clue people in about the diminishing returns of armour.
*Before watching*
Time to see how I've been fuckin' up real hard by slotting in Def boost when there isn't much else I can put in when I already have DB and the like ;)
*After watching*
That's pretty fair. Never actually knew how defense was calculated. So, now time to slot in some health boost and speed eating 👍
Speed eating and recovery up is the new META. Lol
Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior Vaal Hazak? His set has both of those and constant health regen that is buffed by recovery up.
I love speed eating! I so got used to it that sipping potion without it feels like it take ages...
Looking Forward to "Boulders is a trap" Video 😁
That’s why I use health boost 3 always and if I go against a hard monster I’ll use Blessing.
I used the Damascus helm and a hard Def deco a lot, it helped for a good while before making better stuff, that alone gives lvl 6 Def and some other slots
I usually just do defense boost 7, divine blessing 5, and health boost 3 if I have to fight tempered elder dragon
lol "just do"
Was any consideration when evaluating these numbers in consistently being able to survive certain more difficult to dodge monster attacks e.g. monster can no longer 1 2 hit you to death, but now you survive with a silver of hp?
As long as your defense isn't _too_ high, translating it into eHP (health/(1-(1-80/(80+defense)))) should give you that answer. By too high I mean that most games require the player to take at least 1 point of damage when they receive an attack. I'm sure Monster Hunter does this too and eHP has increasing returns since defense (thus damage reduction) has diminishing returns (see their inverse relationship in that equation).
Hello Jinx Jinx and Tuna! Are you guys gonna upload a complete guide on the guiding lands, and how to get augments and decos etc? That would be very helpful and owesome! Thanks for the great content! 👍🏻
It's something we are looking into yes :D
Alright yall, let's make these trap builds. Hellish Slasher Attack 7 and Defense 7 and eat for Defense Up Large.
Edit: Oh snap thanks for the likes, and the heart Jinx and/or Tuna. Happy hunting fellow hunters and huntresses! Byyeeeee
Edit 2: Welp, I had a heart...
...
@Derek Bartlett Lol I did have a heart, rip.
Any news on Charge Blade builds? I'm aware they improved elemental CB's but aren't the elemental CB's that have impact phials also A TRAP?!
Considering defense 7 isn't worth it, sure. You get the most value out of 4 or 6. When I go from getting 2 shot by stuff to more than 3hko (with health 3 in both cases), defense boost isn't a trap.
Speed eating makes consumable use almost instant with lvl 3, it turns the long chug of mega potions into you basically smashing it on your face and being fully healed by it. And one level of free meal gives you a roughly 25% increase to your healing consumables so free meal is better than defence boost
They should make it 5 levels that go from 5% to 25%
I'm looking forward to "Sword & Shield is a Trap."
I've been playing SnS exclusively for 9 years. I don't think I've ever had as tough a time as I have in Iceborne (unless we count underwater combat in 3U...). Would be nice to have some math to back that up or debunk it.
Nice to know half of my MR Grinding lands loadouts with Def boost 4-7 (depending on slots and charm usage) aren’t helping me too much 😭 I generally run Health Boost 3 anyways, so I’ll just use those level 4 slots from my Def boost +4 gems for other things. Tanks!
You're welcome!
@@tmtlopes No dying for me, but thanks =). Not having to slot in defense boost (since my armor gets me to around 830-850 prior to it anyways) gives me more room for stun resist 3 and elemental resistance =)
The Patrick casey/Datto of MHW
But what if I have 3 health boost, 5 divine blessing, and 7 defense boost
Find a way to add Recovery and you are immortal.
I have all of that, speed eating, free meal 3 and wide range. You become a paladin.
Ok, first of, why, in my casual guiding lands brain-AFK grinding build, would I absolutly aim for Def UP 7? Def up 6 is just 2% less, same flat and ele res, also much easier to get with jewels.
Now, I know that the main point is that Def up is worse option than most/all other defensive skills when used in "New Dwachen" armor, and yeah, definitly, as that is a pretty aggressive build in the first place and there its just not worth.
However later in the video you make the point that even in "comfy" sets its never good, and I disagree. My current comfy grind build is 4x Gold Rathian and that obviously has Health Boost and True DB in it and those cumulativly are just a massive decrease in damage taken with Def Up 6, but even in my older set I ended up including Def Up 6 because there are other factors at play then just the pure math, such as downtime/ time to recover after getting hit and having to heal up, and the kinda reverse of effective health, the "how many hits does one Mega Potion heal". Here then things like speed eating and rec up also come into play, also of course Health augment. Back to the 4x (or even 2x) Gold Rathian set, because once you combine 200 health, def up 6, Divine blessing 5 and the Defense augments separate Divine Blessing like effect, a Health augments healing just gets better and better as it heals the same amount but you take less and less actual HP the more of that stuff you stack.
And this, again, is for a comfy "grind guiding lands/ tempered investigations" build, is super valuable for a situation where you don't play ultra focused, since it affects factors like "how many hits [mistakes] can I take [make] before I have to stop attacking and heal up to be safe?" "Can I just heal this with Health aug by attacking, instead of healing up?" "Can I eat this hit but get my big damage spike in first, without risking a cart?" "Does my cat heal me enough with Vigorwasp that I can just keep being carelessly aggro?"
All of these are things I absolutly care about then not going for fast, clean kills and Def Up certainly helps in all of these.
I have exactly that type of build, I run a 2 piece Gold Rath and 2 piece Vaal
Alongside a max augmented namielle insect lance, with a heal dust kinsect
Also insect lance gets a def buff with extracts
Does it kill stuff fast? Not really, but it spams mounts, aoe heals, absolutely never dies, and when I play solo my cat handles doing dmg with volcano
Great for casual grinding while doing something else
bro you just wrote a whole dictionary
So having more def is bad? Or is it good up to a certain that you shouldn’t go beyond?
So in other words to make the skill reasonable its max level should be reduced from 7 all the way down to 3 (still applying what the current level 7 already would) and its 10% bonus should be the last thing applied taking into account ALL additive bonuses from ALL sources before applying a 10% bonus. And then even if it did all that it would likely still be worse than lvl 3 healthboost but at that point would at the very least be strong enough and give enough of a buff that it could be a valid option to consider if you want more defense after health boost.
Have you done a video on palico rally lvl 5?
J&t:defense boost is a trap! Tds:hold my elder dragon blood
And if you knew anything about diminishing returns, you'd know half of that 3300 defense was -useless- half as useful as the first half. It's awful hard to get that high and sacrifices the superior Health Boost and Divine Blessing while requiring a Hunting Horn user.
zecuse If you knew about Effective HP you’d know that what you said is hilarious...
@@sharlesdaviskendy2391 I'm referencing my other comment on this matter.
*TLDR*: Damage Reduction (DR) and Effective HP (eHP) are two sides of the same coin. There are multiple was to increase DR/eHP in the game. Defense is one, HP is a second, and Divine Blessing is a third. Focusing everything on Defense demonstrates diminishing returns when replacing 3 points for Divine Blessing will result in almost 2x more eHP.
1500 Defense with lvl 7 Defense Boost = 2963 eHP
After accounting for the lower Defense for lvl 4 Defense Boost then lvl 3 Divine Blessing = 5610 eHP (when it procs).
DR = 1 - (80 / (80 + Defense))
eHP = HP / (1 - DR), notice Defense gets flipped to the numerator when you substitute DR thus increasing returns.
Therefore, Defense results in diminishing returns even though it's still raising eHP. Replacing for Health Boost displays this even more. However, games usually apply damage in terms of integers greater than 0. The game will only calculate DR when applying damage because going to and from eHP is just more work. So, DR * damage >= 1 in just about every game. eHP's increasing returns can hide this from the player and give them the sense that they are stronger than they are.
"It's actually still pretty bad compared to Health Boost, Divine Blessing level 3, and Fortify (3 skills that add to 7 points). I couldn't figure out how the last 3 buffs factored into the defense so I'll leave those out.
Given everything in the video until those 3 buffs (3:23), defense is calculated as so:
((1+920+12+18+35+50)*1.1*1.3*1.2)+115+15+15+100+25+20=2067.776 (rounded up to 2068).
Removing the Hunting Horn, Heroics, and the Defense augmented weapon for a more realistic solo scenario gives:
((1+920+12+18+50+35)*1.1*1.3)+15+15+25+20=1556.48 (which would round to 1556). Notice Defense wasn't scaling those 2 forms of raw defense.
Having eaten at the canteen, we would have 150 base health. This defense gives:
1-80/(80+1556.48)=95.11% damage reduction (DR) or 150/(1-.9511)=3068 eHP.
After removing Defense and before replacing it with other skills we have:
((1+920+12+18+50)*1.3)+15+15+25+20=1376.3 (1376).
Having eaten for 150 hp, this defense gives:
1-80/(80+1376.3)=94.5% damage reduction (DR) or 150/(1-.945)=2730 eHP.
Now replacing the Defense lvl 7 for Health Boost lvl 3 and Divine Blessing lvl 3 (with a spare slot since Fortify is already in) gives:
94.5% DR (just more health) or 200/(1-.945)=3640 eHP when Divine Blessing doesn't proc and
1-(80/(80+1376.3)*0.5)=97.25% DR or 200/(1-(1-80/(80+1376.3)*.5))=7281 eHP when Divine Blessing does.
Seeing as Defense can always be replaced with either of those 2 skill's decorations, it's still the worst defense skill in the game. The only way I could see using it would be to replace 3 of the useless elemental defense skills for the monster you're fighting to gain +5 raw defense and the +10% multiplier. Just for fun that gives (3 total empty deco slots):
((1+920+12+18+20+35)*1.1*1.3)+15+15+25+20=1513.58 (1514).
1-(80/(80+1513.58)*0.5)=97.48% DR or 200/(1-(1-80/(80+1513.58)*.5))=7967 eHP
And now you've lost 7 slots for attack/utility skills (Marathon Runner, Constitution, Recovery Up) for a *marginal* *gain*.
Edit: These values are a maximum for when your canteen gives you at least 5 fresh ingredients and you get Felyne Booster. Otherwise they're a little lower.
Edit 2: I should also point out that these numbers are only for receiving a physical attack. An elemental attack will create another DR multiplier separate from defense. I'm not sure if the damage from an elemental attack is split between the physical and elemental portions thought, but I'd guess it would be since players damage is split like that (look at Critical Boost calculations)."
zecuse Defense does NOT get diminishing returns on Effective Health. That’s a misconception.
Damage reduction’s effect on effective health grows *exponentially*, so to offset that armor’s effect on damage reduction grows logarithmic. The end result is that armor’s effect on effective health is *linear*.
Consider. 0% to 50% damage reduction would double your effective health. But just raising damage reduction another 25% to 75% would double your Effective Health AGAIN. Raising another 12.5% would double it AGAIN. As damage reduction goes up, its effect gets incredibly powerful. The difference between 99% and 99.9% is MASSIVE, while the difference between 0% and 0.9% is negligible.
Most games (Monster Hunter World included) use a X/(armor value + X) formula. That means at 0 armor you have 100% effective health and at X armor you have 200% effective health and at 2X armor you have 300% effective health and 3X you have 400% effective health and so on so forth. For every X armor you get the same amount of effective health. It’s growth is linear.
No part of that 3000 Defense was wasted. The last 1500 Defense added the same amount of effective health as the first 1500... No diminishing returns here.
@@sharlesdaviskendy2391 And the point I'm trying to make is that banking everything on Defense to get that DR *is* demonstrating diminishing returns. That's a fact of mathematics. Dropping Defense Boost entirely for any amount of Health Boost (also explained in the video) and Divine Blessing will be better for eHP since you're introducing 2 new multipliers at the cost of the one you already have (raw Defense). The product of these 2 mults is greater than the amount lost from Defense Boost alone (2.377 times larger). Therefore, Defense Boost with its current values is complete shit.
Thank you! I do have 1 question tho, how do other %based defense boosts stack? Specially stacking HH Defense Large buff in conjunction with Def Boost 7
Just watching your videos prepare me for any math test ever.
After two procs of fortitude, i get more than 1100 defense and tempered monsters still open up my ass in the GL, so i sort of figured out it was bad. But how bad, it's fun to see.
Meanwhile me running maxed out defense safi lance with max hb and db and max guard and guard up: still finishing most hunts inside of 15 minutes and basically never die. Strikes me as more of a speed running thing than a general ideal to work from. So many random people in my hunts be carting from light brushes with the monsters.
The video title is a trap.
Welp, time to change some Decorations.
Y'all can say it's a trap, but these randoms keep carting. And I laugh at every supernova....except lunestra that shit cray
But you just bring a fire mantle "laugh in defense 7"
Divine blessing is also a trap though. Iirc it only activates 25% of the time, so 75% of the time you are extremely vulnerable. The point isn't to take the lowest amount of damage throughout the hunt, it's to not cart, and if you only have 25% chance of not getting one-shotted it's not great
Health Booster + Weapons with recovery health + Divine blessing 5 ( Gold Rathian set) = TANK Hunter ( no die)
Wait so if I go defence boost 7 health boost 3 and divine blessing how tanky am I gonna be?
Pair it with Vaal's skill, recovery up, and a rocksteady mantle and you should be good to go...
Add recovery up, Vaal´s skill and you can probably just stand there and let the palico kill the monsters (equip the palico with healing equipment to go FURTHER BEYOND)
@@ACSMEX imma go one further and add tigrex set bonus so when I eventually will get low I can drink a (almost) infinite amount of potions lmfao
I eat for elemental resistance and just drink my mega armor/demondrug, it literally replaces eating for attack/defense (L), if not I eat for moxie or insurance.
Not all monsters have elemental attacks.
Are the Armortalon and Armorcharm worth it? What about the defense buff items?
They should make it so that the bonuses stack.
The 5%/+10 from Level 3 should stack with the 5%/+20/+3 from Level 4, so on and so forth.
Then at level 7 you'd effectively get +36%/+135Def/+16Res.
That sounds a lot more worthwhile.
Hey jinx, I’m using the the HH attack song 3 for the utility. Stamina attack def. and wind pressure. I put some defense gems in there to push it to about 1200 def. is that still worthless against say the recovery boost from attack song 2 ?
Oh reading is hard. I read DB 7 is + 100% and go “how’s that bad”
I don't use defense boost much either now that I'm into that end game gear.. but what about 5 defense boost and 2 health boost (assuming you can only fit 7 points into the build).. Would that be better than 3 health boost and 4 defense boost or any other combo? Most of those other skills you mention don't reduce the damage you take, preventing wombo combos from taking you out. They just fix the damage you do take faster.
Divine Blessing is more efficient than Defense Boost (even with the RNG aspect), so you should have max Health Boost and max Divine Blessing before even thinking about slotting in Defense Boost.
@@Heisenberger_29 Fortunately for that argument, you rarely need either to save your life. But if you did, I'd rather take the one that will always save your life over the one that might fail the quest for you.
@Tuhalu But Defense Boost will not always save your life (at least not more than Divine Blessing), because it’s not a very good or efficient skill.
It’s true that once in a blue moon Divine Blessing will let you die to a one-shot attack when Def Boost wouldn’t, BUT there are two things to consider:
1. Not every monster attack is a one-shot.
2. Over the course of multiple hunts (5, 10, 20 or more hunts), Divine Blessing 3 will keep you alive just as much as Defense Boost 7, but at a smaller cost of deco slots,
Or, if you compare Blessing 3 to Def Boost 3 (same amount of levels), then Blessing 3 is much better and will literally keep you alive more. Period.
Here’s an analogy: let’s say that a build has 50% affinity and Crit Boost 3. When people calculate its damage, they consider that the 50% affinity with CB3 is a 20% damage increase. Why? Because in some hunts it might increase your damage by 17-19% and in some by 21-23%, but over the course of multiple hunts it evens out at 20%.
Does this mean that Attack Boost 7 is better because it’s constant? Hell no, affinity with CB is better. Similarly, Blessing is better than Def Boost even with the RNG aspect taken into consideration.
@@Heisenberger_29 Constant damage is less valuable than constant mitigation. Damage spikes are always what kill you. Always.
@Tuhalu A 12.5% RNG mitigation that costs 3 lvl1 slots is still better than a 12.39% constant mitigation that costs 7 lvl1 slots. You said yourself in your original comment that wombo combos are what kills us, so we’re not talking about literal one-shot attacks where you only have a 25% chance to survive, we’re talking about sequences of 2-6 attacks, so Blessing makes a big difference.
Keep in mind that you can usually escape wombo combos by superman diving or waiting a bit before getting back up or getting away from the monster so you can heal etc.. If you eat up wombo combos left and right, then you’re going to cart no matter if you have Blessing 3 or Def Boost 7.
Attacks that one-shot you at full hp with HB3 are so rare that I don’t even know if they exist, and if they exist, then they are so telegraphed that you should never be getting hit by them.
I only run defense boost in a meme immortal set that ALL the defensive skills maxed out. It does ok-bad damage but never has to stop attack to heal. I know that it isnt even remotely meta or efficient.
*rips bong* now let's take max defense boost, combined with divine protection, hp boost, speed eating, and as many elemental resists as possible and not fuckin die dude
Im running with, lv 7 def lv 3 health boost lv 5 divine blessing, lv 7 crit eye lv 3 wex lv 3 critboost lv 3 stun resist + other skills. Can survive getting hammered by tempered savage deviljho while still having good dmg.
Master touch build with damascus helm + garuga greaves +3pcs teostra. Same skills but no divine blessing.
Elemental resistance 3 is very important. A scuffed bow build with thunder Defense 3 can take a direct nuclear blast from Kirin and not even be half health
Oh my god.
Tuna has been assimilated by Jinjinx fot nutrition and ownership of the math realm
I honestly think that they should make it so that defense boost lowers the damage you take by a fixed percentage, say for example 20% in addition to the elemental defense increases. That would instantly make it viable, no?
Defense is already op. Literally a build where you are unkillable and can let the palico solo everything.
Not when u have all the green skills and attacking using kinsect
I strongly disagree with you on that video, ofc hp-boost is better but everyone knows that, how ever after that I think its a good defensive skill you can argue if divine blessing is better or not because divine blessing is RNG but defens boost is not a bad defensiv skill
DuoZock LP def boot is weak on its own but i run it with booth divine and hp boost aswell as hp recovery
RNG: wow sucks to hear that... anyway heres another level 4 defense boost gem for you
SIghs. Im gonna debunk this right now and try to mitigate any damage this is gonna cause cuz im tired of seeing 2-3 shot wonders 3x carting and making me regret putting up a SoS to make things more fun instead of just soloing the damn hunt myself.
I been playing a Defensive, Dual Blade build from the very start in MHW On PS4, then redid it all again on PC when it came out, all the way into MR100+ Iceborne on PC. Defense Boost back in Vanilla was pretty weak, but I used it anyway and still saw a difference, now with its buff? I see a even greater difference. I been with Hunters of many many different builds, some streamlined, some trash, some weird, and some clever. But the most common I seen is those at least having 3 Vitality and at least one set of resist giving element protection with some bonus defense. Difference between any and all of these hunters compared to me who was always rocking the highest defense possible is, and my friends who played with me, and the one player who I do 70 percent of my hunts with can all say with certainty: I can take 5-8 hits before death, while they can only take 2-3.
Ever since my first foray into Monster Hunter which was the Monster Hunter 3 games, Tri and then Ultimate if I remember correctly, was a long time ago. I always incorporated max damage builds, in Tri I was SnS, and used a Status Infliction high damage build. In Ultimate when Dual Blades came out, again went with a high damage build. It was what everyone else was doing, and everyone would only be able to take 3 hits before death. Getting hit is inevitable, does not matter at all how good you are or how well you dodge, I seen players constantly play it safe and back away when they know an attack is coming, and I seen players risk it and try to Invuln Frame or last second avoid to get that DPS uptime in. I seen players cart constantly due to getting a string of bad luck and getting ULTRA COMBOOOOOOOOOOOOED....its really just being hit 3 times in a row. I seen players get hit, drink a potion back to max, get hit again from something they could not avoid, drink a potion, go back in, get hit AGAIN cuz monster wanted to give you a bad time instead of the other 3 hunters, is stunned, gets comboed and carts.
Fact of the matter is, the A.I can be B.S. And you cant expect other hunters to get you out of stun lock or to carry Wide area heal items. I even seen players who assumes if a SnS user is in the group, hes gonna be a Paladin build and constantly heal everyone, only to get 3 shot like an idiot waiting for that supposed heal....
Thus in MHW I got tired of dealing with risk, dealing with B.S, etc. Thus I made Defensive no B.S builds. And guess what? I can outdps practically anybody who isnt use the same Dual Blade build. I can outdps this content creator who made this video here, I can outdps his buddies. I can very likely outdps most of any of you. Why? Because I am rocking a High Defensive, High Regen build which allows to me stay on nearly all monsters arses for near 99 percent up-time. I rarely ever have to run away to suck down a potion and if I do? Its a Max potion then back into it again. I always use L Defense food or L Element Resist food based on what I am fighting, and I have several different Loadouts for my equipment and decos also based on what I am fighting. When in the hunt I always use both Mega Demon Drugs, I carry with me Temporal Mantle, always, and I switch between Iron, Vit, or elemental protection mantle depending on what I am fighting. Lunastra? Bet your ass im taking that Fire. Nergigante? Hell yea Iron. Rap song Shara? *look at the Something About MHW IB parody video* I take Vit, since Iron is suicidal to use against him. Before every fight I also make sure to use my Mega Nutrients to get that 200 health as needed, and I always use Dash Extract and Immunizer.
If I take any damage, my Regen along with Vaal Hazaak two piece Ability, will quickly heal it, sometimes Ill even just stay on the ground after a large hit just to regen most of it back before getting up and tearing into the monster again. Ill also regen my health just from constant attacking due to Health Regen on my Blades, something EVERY HUNTER SHOULD HAVE. So once again, while most hunters are running off to suck on their 5th, 9th, 15th, 24th, 30th, Mega Potion, believe me people carry the mats on hand just to make more or farcaster back to camp to grab more....I will be on the Monsters Ass doing at minimum 35 percent of the entire groups combined damage. Most times 40-45 percent.
The only draw back to all this? My right hand hurts, alot, since unlike most other dual blades, I dont get to stop mashing like they do when they are drinking a potion or sharpening. Since I also rock 4-5 handicraft and a Sharp Jewel as well.
So in the end you are wondering, how much Defense skill do I have?
Well at this time, with Food buff and Mega Armorskin, I can get up to 1160 defense....and thats with Lv6 Defense Skill. 3 from my Damascus Beta Helm, and 1 single Hard Defense Deco in it...that grants 3 defense skill. Yea thats right, I only need ONE deco slot, to get +6 defense. Im also using anywhere from 1-2 LV3 Elemental Resist skills, I switch them out depending on the monster. I also have Handicraft 4, can have 5 depending on the weapon I am using, Free Element 3, again can switch out. Got Protection 3, Recovery Speed 3, Recovery Up 2. Agitator, Evade Window 1, Agitator, Peak Performance, also have LV4 Critical Eye and other skills. I can have anywhere from 30-45 affinity based on the weapon I am using, and I wreck anything I have my sights set on without fear of being B.Sed. I can at any time with a little resist and defense loss, put in Stun Resist 3 as well. But I hardly ever need it, but doing so would really give me the absolute full on no B.S build.
Guys this content creator is apparently also a Vaper. Im sure he means well, but he obviously never had any true experience with defensive builds. The difference between my 1160 defense, only obtainable using at least 6 defense skill cuz without it, I lose about 200 defense. And those who only run around with 890-950 defense, well its huge. I seen it with my own eyes, so has all my friends with me over hundreds of hours of playing this game and its just absolute fact. If your still not convinced? Try it yourself. I only really recommend a Defensive build on weapons that requires you to commit high uptime like SnS, Dual Blades, Hunters Bow, Longsword, and Charge Blade as some examples. But I seen slow heavy hitting weapon users utilize defensive builds too.
Welp, I hope I deterred some of you from staying as 3 shot triple cart wonders. Its real easy to get Defense 6 thanks to Hard Defense Decos. While still getting all the Attack skills you want. But well its your game, your way to play, do as you want.
Earplugs max level is the best defense skill
Arda Vila rolling roars is your best defense, you dont need earplugs
@@alexisserrano9807 how the hell do you dodge roars, how is the timing
Arda Vila it takes time to learn the timing, but monsters give hints for when to roll actually. A lot of monsters will move a leg back slightly before a roar. There’s some videos on RUclips for roar timing.
Arda Vila its almost at the last second of the roar
Definitely. Earplugs saved me so much aggravation.
Thank you greatly for showing me the light. I'm disgusted as well as enlightened, and have a few builds to revise now that I know better.