Happy New Year. Glad to be starting it with a return to Christianity, thanks to Jonathan’s project and Fr Seraphim Rose. Coming from Peterson, Jung, Vervaeke, Corbin, McgilChrist and plenty more I thought we had to bootstrap something out if everything and make something new. Maybe it took some of that to be able to detect what was already in Christianity, but it definitely took Jonathan, Fr Rose, and their sources to make it visible. Thanks Jonathan!
@@joachim847 Well, I will take your advice to be careful (which I should have done more with Jung and his active imagination), and will also read St. Sophrony. I don't think I could join in Rose denying evolution, and think there are other more archetytpally open St.'s and Jonathan's integrative project that round him out as well. For his and my critique of New Age, Jung, Corbin, Vervaeke and Peterson, I would have never found him resonant, or the church fathers without them and participatory religious experience and ancient philosophy and meditation. I think there are many fundamentalists in comments on his videos as well that go too hard on it, and see a certain tendency to excuse what is going on in Russia with a refusal to apply Fr. Rose's own critiques there and to the way that government is in bed with the sorcerous/gnostic philosophy of Alexander Duggin, a mob infested government, and the church's willingness to go along with it while projecting antichrist. I also think there is plenty of value in Jung, many heretical thinkers, Catholicism, especially the part mentioned in the video on Dante, and Jonathan's universal history and use of fairy tale in it's proper place. However, the amount of pride in Jung and the issue of Lucifer being put into the trinity, and presenting Christianity as something to be transcended is there explicitly, and multiplies in the spirit of our times, and what he critiques in the French Revolution and communism, the tendency of New Age to lean towards that, and the problems he also sees in modern conservatism are issues. I don't see how he is wrong about that, and the agentic pride that is always there, or in Chardin. I also think Corbin is better than Jung and more easily corrected and integrated in the manner Jonathan is doing.
@@joachim847 In addition to which of St. Sophrony's works is best to start with, what is your disagreement with Rose, and what do you see as the danger? Is it anything I touched on above, or something I'm unaware of?
I am absolutely thrilled you’re focusing on fairytales! Will you ever print them as illustrated books? I pulled my kids out of public school and began homeschooling them. At the beginning of each semester I ask my kids what they want to learn about. And my daughter said fairytales. I am struggling to teach my children how to think more symbolically. The years they’ve spent in public school have really made them very materialistic and nihilistic. Thank you for the work you do, may God bless you.
In regards to fairytales, have you checked out Nicholas Kotar? He has a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio where he tells some old Slavic fairytales and talks about their meaning. It is called "In a Certain Kingdom". Also, there's the Amun Sul podcast. I haven't listened to it yet, but I have listened to most of The Lord of Spirits podcast, which is AMAZING, and I understand there is some similarity. I also think Jonathan's Universal History series with Richard Rohlin might be a good place to start for kids. My 13 year old son has enjoyed listening in on those episodes for the last year or so. Like you, I would love to have such resources to teach my children.
I’m also really excited for Johnathan’s fairytales. My boys are only 4 and 5, but we’ve decided on a home education, and are already finding tremendous value in a “living books” curriculum.
I just love listening to you. I am a deep thinker. I am not brilliant but I have been inspired by the Holy Spirit and people like you too. I am a grandma age 75. For the last several years I have been delving into all of this stuff. I find it absolutely amazing. My teacher is not a university but it is the Holy Spirit. And he has educated me believe it or not. Oi And my deep concern about my past sins are just what you’ve been talking about. And all of this sounds to me like being born again from a Protestant viewpoint. But I believe we’re all born again anyway more than once. OAnd I’m just grateful to listen to people like you because I think that’s delving deeper into the mind of Jesus myself God is amazing and awesome and indescribable.
I was especially encouraged by the beginning of this talk. About 8 -10 years ago I started sensing and talking about massive change on the horizon. I began a series of paintings about transition. And then it happened, both on a personal and universal level. It is very helpful to be reminded of God’s presence in discernment. Thank you both.
This resonates for me, the idea that we arrive at symbolic thinking as we are literally exhausted or burnt out by the infinite complexity of the modern world. Instead of continuing to arbitrarily label down the hierarchy, into infinite multiplicity, it is only a matter of time before you label up the hierarchy into unity, until you cannot label anymore.
It is not just exhaustion at the complexity of the world, it is the realization that human belief in being able to solve all problems through intelligence and reason will always produce new problems. It is hubris, egoism, selfishness. Seeing the flaws in the hubris, is becoming aware of the original sin. Every human should face his condition as a sinner. After that you can turn to the absolute and begin the journey towards it, making an effort to become as much like the absolute as is possible. Despite of the impossibility of ever becoming perfect. It is not an easy path to find, but as you find the beginning you can also begin to experience grace.
Christopher, I resonate with you on so many levels. Listening to you distill thoughts into beautiful, precise, distinct phrases operates much like poetry. I am happy that you found company in John and Jonathan. I understand the difficulty of turning these revolving thoughts into actionable work but take heart in that you will find people to listen, and you would be doing a great favor to our times. Whatever you do, please make sure your words find their way to print, video, or library. With much love and respect, Diego
Chris' point about comparing the individual experience of transformation to that of the communal is very much on point. I remember times of great confusion in my life, caused I believe by my attempt to cling to outdated modes of being. I struggled a lot during those times, trying to conform to those modes. They just didn't work anymore. What eventually happened was that the struggle one day ended, and with that the "problem" disappeared. I moved on. Mind, it took a lot of suffering to get to that place. It seems to me that a lot of what is going on communally is that people are trying shore up modes of life that are no longer possible. Personally, I do believe we are at a moment of collapse, and I think it is a good thing. In fact, I think it is because the Holy Spirit is dragging us to something new. Like a painting, the new thing will be made up of many of the same "colors" as the old, only spread on the canvas differently. When this new painting is finished, we will stand back and see something beautiful.
The feelings Pageau describes in the first five minutes of the tectonic plates shifting and an existential crisis is exactly how I felt since the beginning of 2020. A complete ripping apart and of isolation. I can’t wait for this to pass.
Jonathan, I'm only a quarter of the way through, but this is already perhaps the best conversation you've ever had on RUclips. Full of revelatory and forward-thinking ideas. Fantastic stuff.
I have just finished a powerful series of lectures on Rene Girard. His ideas around the scapegoat mechanism as an organizing tool are profound and I believe worthy of attention by this corner of the internet. As a child, a clergyman told me that Christ was the ultimate scapegoat, the final sacrifice which ended the practice of blood sacrifice.
Girard changed my perspective as well and really helped me intellectually embrace my faith after personal revelation changed my heart. Curious which lectures you watched and if you could link.
Excellent conversation! As to what we confront in solitude I found what was said very relevant. My prayer lately is that God either defeat my negative behavior or use it in a positive way and so sublimate it (because I've become less confident in my own judgement of what is "negative" any more; fog of war?). I'm inviting Him to take over all of it because I'm certainly unsure
Really great part near the end about surrendering the creation of storytelling to the unconscious. I've been doing that with a writing project I'm working on and later I come to realize there is symbolism in it that I never noticed. Really great stuff! I just need to find the best way to allow the unconscious to bring those ideas forward. It almost never really happens when I'm planning for it.
I am that way with my craft too. Whole patterns, whole stories!..come together. It is the best. Only thing we must do is get out of the way. I do all sorts of handicrafts, but examples: I dye my yarn or paper with plants I find immediately outside. I draw with my non-dominant hand, things like that. There are little ways to get your foot in the door, imo.
Once you see the light... you will never forget its quality ... no matter how dark the darkness gets. There is no going back. There is no forgetting. That is religio
It is always useful to us simple mortals when valuable people do not enter academia. Scientific papers are read by very few people. Professors speak to tiny groups. Universities often feel like luxury prisons of knowledge. In the old days, there were imprisoned aristocrats. Their prisons looked like castles. The guards bowed and behaved like servants. Unless the prisoner tried to escape. Then they behaved like guards. Modern universities were once like such prisons. Now they are prisons with certain kinds of ideologies and pronouns and what else. In the old days the guards knew that when they were guarding the king's brother, they were not assuming his gender.
Only last year did I learn you can talk and analyse philosophically while speaking like a regular person. I did not know this was true and I always rejected philosophy for how impenetrable it can be. I'm glad people like Chris and Jonathan and Jordan are here to show that we can think things more deeply than we perhaps thought :)
Truly some inspiring and exciting moments in this conversation. I really enjoyed this very much. Would love it if next time you guys get the chance to go even more into creativity and self-sacrifice and the way fractal patterns happen at every scale.
It's as if we have entered an age of profound paradoxes. On the one hand we are being engulfed in a tsunami of new affordances yet so many of us feel powerless, without traction because we lack a sense of place for getting traction. Our sense of 'home' has become so tenuous, almost to the point of being ephemeral. Yet we are enticed by our possibilities but overwhelmed by the anguished knowledge of how contingent these possibilities are on our increasingly attenuated sense of togetherness. We have almost forgotten how to engage in true communion and genuine fellowship. Your conversation and John's is indispensable.
At 41:00, I wish I could Super Chat a question now - do you think that someone, a spouse or loved one, can be brought to reintegration? When you share a home/life with someone, if one person experiences this awakening and the other is still firmly rooted in the material status quo, how do you proceed?
"Creating fairytales but in a post modern collage sort of way". I have actually tried to do something like this. I made a esoteric compilation of video and audio clips and put it to music. Funny enough, I actually sampled Pageaus voice for one part. It probably seems like nonsense to most people, but it is one of the few things I created where I genuinely felt like merely the vessel of some higher entity. This year I want to do so again. But this time around, produce something that won't just make people think I'm a schizo. Lol.
The catholic semiotics guy is dr Brian Kemple, student of John Dealy, who wrote the Four Ages of Understanding. He could probably be a great guest to talk to eventually.
Woah! Talk about participating in an unfolding pattern... in humility. Jonathan and Christopher demonstrating such mystical poesis in real-time is so... so... fractal! Christ is born! Glorify Him! Happy New Year!
20:58 I like the way he brought that around! It's almost like the video was scripted and he managed to find his way through the philosophical and theological forest just to arrive back where he started (the beginning of the video), but with a new perspective as he saids!
I’m liking the new symbol. Is that a hybrid of some kind? I thought it was a lion but I didn’t think you would give it claws like that if it was a lion. Pretty cool.
He explained it in a patron video. It has to do what he and Matthieu have been talking about. Think of the symbols of his other drawing “The Cosmic Mountain”
The world groans. The edges rush in toward the center, but they cannot exist properly there. The center will hold, but those “labor pains” are real. Without Christ, there is no hope of reconciliation.
Covid really exposed the system in big ways. It’s still impossible to see the world the way we did before that all happened. It was strong in all the wrong ways, and weak in the worst ways too. It shook my faith in the system in a lot of ways. I’m yearning for human friendships and relationships.
a sin is a transgression of the limit, God created the universe through organized self limitation, he sacrificed himself, his omnipotence to become a particular aspect, so for us to know God we must inhabit the limits given by God, and when we sin we realize that we have passed the limit and in that we can better understand how to live inside the limits given by God or you can chose to transgress more limits and live in that manner until you become a transgression so you don't have more God-organized limits in the created order meaning you die from confusion (coagulation) and/or from dissociation from any link with the source of reality (dissolve)
Very interesting what Christopher was saying related to Kierkegaard, and the need to ground yourself outwards, away from ego-centrism, as a means of relieving anxiety. I agree, but the caveat, is that is precisely the free-floating anxiety that Desmet talks about in the pre-total state, so it can be attached to false idols and state worship.
I think something that when unnoticed was the fact that christ is not just the logos but the redeemer! The logos can draw you but cannot save you unless he becomes flesh and take our place and unites us to Him, he needs to come down to us as redeemer! This is exclusively christian revelation.
Right. I'm going to start using "coextensive" rather than "fractal" to avoid the weird looks. Coincidentally, would "love" and "wisdom" be decent summaries, respectively, of Christ's right and left hand? Love accepts and wisdom discerns.
@33 min. I've found the old adage, "birds of a feather, flock together" is so true. As a cop, I used to talk with parents who bemoaned their child falling in with the wrong crowd, as if it was the fault of those other bad kids. In the mean time the other kids parents were saying the same thing about their kid. Lots of finger pointing and little personal accountability.
During the final part of the conversation, about the creative process, and letting the story and characters kind of develop themselves, gave me this small hint of God's creative process that is very helpful to me. I notice this... I guess I'll call it pattern, that I can't quite put my finger on. It's about how chaotic and arbitrary our existence seems to be, which is not "incompatible" with God's perfection, but it seems very counterintuitive that His creation would be this way. I guess this particular question is also what lies at the heart of the question: "How can a perfect God create sinful creatures?" The core of the answer is free will, and I'm beginning to get a feeling for the way that this free will ties in with the artistic process. There's a paradoxical thing about it, where these characters come entirely from my own imagination, and yet in the creative process they seem to develop a mind of their own that seems separate from mine. I suspect that God's process of our creation is a lot like that. It seems odd for a God with such fundamental, thorough knowledge of all possible things, to surprise Himself with His own imagination, and perhaps that's not quite what it is, but I think it's getting close.
I'm afraid to do anything after i woke up cus i can see the good and bad of actions. i had a rude awakening after sending a radio frequency to my brain. You know how you just don't want to see all the truth anymore, it's too much. All these people waking up and feeling overwhelmed by becoming a different type of person no one in your current life can understand. We need gathering places like parks with music when the weather gets better :)
I’d very much like to hear your thoughts on the Hellboy comics if you ever read them, it’s the single piece of art that came the closest to making me a christian.
What you said about practicing forgiveness towards others allowing us to see the love of God I believe is absolutely the case. In fact forgiving someone who wronged me and didnt deserve any forgiveness, but being shown by another christian example in my life that i needed to forgive him, was what ultimately led me to see what Christ did for me, and after that i got baptized almost directly after. Never realized this before until you layed it out this way.
I would like to volunteer an example of the breakdown-reintegration cycle Jonathan described at 20:00-21:07. My daughter turned 6 in December and my son is 3 turning 4 in June. At some point in the past 6 months they became self-conscious at bath time. Now I can see my daughter has reintegrated at a higher level but at the price of that specific innocence lost. There is no recuperating it. I can see it play out in my family how. it impacts us individually when the larger community is fragmented and breaking apart and strong male leaders are no where to be seen.
sum’times, relative to time 🔺 only the incorrect-ion; æ was the only gno’n 🔻 the catalyze the correction; æ from outside (sources) • Thus, the past ‘olam is eh yeh; rewritten
I get that these guys are philosophers and thinkers, but I wonder if they understand how exhausting it is to try and understand what they’re trying to communicate. Somehow someone like Jordan Peterson manages to communicate it all on a very simple level but some of these other guys use such esoteric language. I’m often left just feeling lost. There are a few people who can bridge the gap between what these guys know and talk about with each other and the people who need it.
this verse i think is really pertinent towards the end of the conversation relating to storytelling and people writing stories without planning the whole thing out from the beginnnign: "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
Please make a video about what is the symbolism behind these people on youtube having a snake as a "loving" pet. Please. I'm hurting not having a symbolic analysis of this phenomenon.
I would love to see something on the symbolism of the round table vs. the rectangular table and how that ties into hierarchy, structure, etc. Perhaps the history of art ties into this somehow, all the anti-structuralism and how the change in buildings and living conditions has contributed (cities leading to this anxiety of The Matrix) to this rebellion against too much structure.
While something like dialogos seems like a necessary step or phase, I am concerned that human beings in their deep seated self-centeredness will end up devouring each other without belief in the transcendent source as we see in Law of Attraction practitioners and the like.
I appreciate your comment. I'd like to recommend you look at Thomas Troward, an Edwardian British writer who is both a committed, thoughtful Christian and someone in the "law of Attraction" camp, but from an intellectually deeper place than the current gurus thereof! You can read his "Bible Mystery and Bible Meaning" online free with a quick Google search. I have found his philosophy a way of being a heartfelt , basically orthodox Christian mystic who also understands what's called the 'law of attraction" from a higher perspective than the usual "name it and claim it" ilk! He's basically orthodox if you can make allowances for a quasi-panentheistic POV on things.
Hero with a thousand faces was published in 1948 and he stood on the shoulders of Jung and others so you've never been alone...It always takes a while to bring the left brain on the ride lol
People are witnessing and feeling exhausted and the emptiness of their lives, and becoming curious of those demonstrating the provision’s of the Cross. Those awakened are sensitive to The Spirit of Jesus are becoming enlightened, enlivened and encouraged by God’s presence and seeking more than ever and appropriately God’s Word and witnessing Jesus Christ presence, and the pattern’s occurring in the schematic storylines entering; chapters of our own lives meeting with the chapter’s of others. For me personally, the year 2023 is meeting and learning from those who are perceiving and earnestly desire to love and care well for those who cannot, do not, or will not accept Jesus. So many thoughts we cannot explain, and so much more to explore and those responding with interests in knowledge sharing and seeking to support others are forming, almost as an unplanned or unintentional, but yet forming a powerful gathering requiring depth, and awakening to those whom are of lesser interest in Christ, the Church, serving, loving well; depthless. Personally I’m sensing my need to study further Isaiah, Acts and Romans in preparation for what I have not fully received, yet recognized, or desiring God to provide me significant reminder’s. Exceptional messaging and must relished as too many thoughts immediately leading me to write without fully listening. Ugh, yet hoping you receive that very thought as compliments of this pertinent message to your viewers. Those who welcome us, we’ll learn and gather together, and for those who do not have interests in our thoughts, words, actions and deeds we pray for, as God’s introductions we give pause and pray for God to help us understand the purposes or importances of the momentary nor longevity of each synchronized experience and messaging we are to recall, receive, recognize, or recommend to others. Sharing a passage in hopes compliments my initial thoughts… Acts 28:23-30 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition 23 So when they had set a day with him, they came in large numbers to his lodging. And he fully set forth and explained the matter to them from morning until night, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24 And some were convinced and believed what he said, and others did not believe. 25 And as they disagreed among themselves, they began to leave, [but not before] Paul had added one statement [more]: The Holy Spirit was right in saying through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers: 26 Go to this people and say to them, You will indeed hear and hear with your ears but will not understand, and you will indeed look and look with your eyes but will not see [not perceive, have knowledge of or become acquainted with what you look at, at all]. 27 For the heart (the understanding, the soul) of this people has grown dull (stupid, hardened, and calloused), and their ears are heavy and hard of hearing and they have shut tight their eyes, so that they may not perceive and have knowledge and become acquainted with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their souls and turn [to Me and be converted], that I may heal them. 28 So let it be understood by you then that [this message of] the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen [to it]! 29 [a]And when he had said these things, the Jews went away, arguing and disputing among themselves. 30 After this Paul lived there for two entire years [at his own expense] in his own rented lodging, and he welcomed all who came to him,
Fascinating conversation about your future plans. I look forward to reading your fairy tales. Will your daughter he helping with the illustrations? She is truly gifted. ❤
The first few minutes describe my journey completely, university utterly decimated my naive faith, I spent 20 years in the wilderness, then came to a deeper understanding, renewed and strong, all previous arguments that crushed me now seem pathetic.
The many plagues in the late Medieval wiped out half the population of Europe. What’s left? Wealth, land, leisure, tons of food……. Not too sure it was the suffering
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Happy New Year. Glad to be starting it with a return to Christianity, thanks to Jonathan’s project and Fr Seraphim Rose. Coming from Peterson, Jung, Vervaeke, Corbin, McgilChrist and plenty more I thought we had to bootstrap something out if everything and make something new. Maybe it took some of that to be able to detect what was already in Christianity, but it definitely took Jonathan, Fr Rose, and their sources to make it visible. Thanks Jonathan!
Please be careful with Fr. Rose 🙏 You should also read St. Sophrony of Essex 😊
@@joachim847 Well, I will take your advice to be careful (which I should have done more with Jung and his active imagination), and will also read St. Sophrony. I don't think I could join in Rose denying evolution, and think there are other more archetytpally open St.'s and Jonathan's integrative project that round him out as well. For his and my critique of New Age, Jung, Corbin, Vervaeke and Peterson, I would have never found him resonant, or the church fathers without them and participatory religious experience and ancient philosophy and meditation.
I think there are many fundamentalists in comments on his videos as well that go too hard on it, and see a certain tendency to excuse what is going on in Russia with a refusal to apply Fr. Rose's own critiques there and to the way that government is in bed with the sorcerous/gnostic philosophy of Alexander Duggin, a mob infested government, and the church's willingness to go along with it while projecting antichrist.
I also think there is plenty of value in Jung, many heretical thinkers, Catholicism, especially the part mentioned in the video on Dante, and Jonathan's universal history and use of fairy tale in it's proper place.
However, the amount of pride in Jung and the issue of Lucifer being put into the trinity, and presenting Christianity as something to be transcended is there explicitly, and multiplies in the spirit of our times, and what he critiques in the French Revolution and communism, the tendency of New Age to lean towards that, and the problems he also sees in modern conservatism are issues. I don't see how he is wrong about that, and the agentic pride that is always there, or in Chardin. I also think Corbin is better than Jung and more easily corrected and integrated in the manner Jonathan is doing.
@@joachim847 Thank you for the conversation, God bless. Which of his works is the best to start with?
@@joachim847 In addition to which of St. Sophrony's works is best to start with, what is your disagreement with Rose, and what do you see as the danger? Is it anything I touched on above, or something I'm unaware of?
@@Ac-ip5hd Reading St. Sophrony, I recommend _His Life is Mine._
I could listen to both Jon & Chris all day. Both have such an insightful & pacifying presence.
I am absolutely thrilled you’re focusing on fairytales! Will you ever print them as illustrated books? I pulled my kids out of public school and began homeschooling them. At the beginning of each semester I ask my kids what they want to learn about. And my daughter said fairytales. I am struggling to teach my children how to think more symbolically. The years they’ve spent in public school have really made them very materialistic and nihilistic. Thank you for the work you do, may God bless you.
In regards to fairytales, have you checked out Nicholas Kotar? He has a podcast on Ancient Faith Radio where he tells some old Slavic fairytales and talks about their meaning. It is called "In a Certain Kingdom". Also, there's the Amun Sul podcast. I haven't listened to it yet, but I have listened to most of The Lord of Spirits podcast, which is AMAZING, and I understand there is some similarity. I also think Jonathan's Universal History series with Richard Rohlin might be a good place to start for kids. My 13 year old son has enjoyed listening in on those episodes for the last year or so. Like you, I would love to have such resources to teach my children.
I’m also really excited for Johnathan’s fairytales. My boys are only 4 and 5, but we’ve decided on a home education, and are already finding tremendous value in a “living books” curriculum.
I just love listening to you. I am a deep thinker. I am not brilliant but I have been inspired by the Holy Spirit and people like you too.
I am a grandma age 75. For the last several years I have been delving into all of this stuff. I find it absolutely amazing.
My teacher is not a university but it is the Holy Spirit. And he has educated me believe it or not.
Oi And my deep concern about my past sins are just what you’ve been talking about.
And all of this sounds to me like being born again from a Protestant viewpoint.
But I believe we’re all born again anyway more than once.
OAnd I’m just grateful to listen to people like you because I think that’s delving deeper into the mind of Jesus myself God is amazing and awesome and indescribable.
I was especially encouraged by the beginning of this talk. About 8 -10 years ago I started sensing and talking about massive change on the horizon. I began a series of paintings about transition. And then it happened, both on a personal and universal level. It is very helpful to be reminded of God’s presence in discernment. Thank you both.
This resonates for me, the idea that we arrive at symbolic thinking as we are literally exhausted or burnt out by the infinite complexity of the modern world.
Instead of continuing to arbitrarily label down the hierarchy, into infinite multiplicity, it is only a matter of time before you label up the hierarchy into unity, until you cannot label anymore.
It is not just exhaustion at the complexity of the world, it is the realization that human belief in being able to solve all problems through intelligence and reason will always produce new problems. It is hubris, egoism, selfishness. Seeing the flaws in the hubris, is becoming aware of the original sin. Every human should face his condition as a sinner. After that you can turn to the absolute and begin the journey towards it, making an effort to become as much like the absolute as is possible. Despite of the impossibility of ever becoming perfect. It is not an easy path to find, but as you find the beginning you can also begin to experience grace.
Nobody:
Them: If Jesus is white then how did Noah get a blue whale on the ark?😤
Christopher, I resonate with you on so many levels. Listening to you distill thoughts into beautiful, precise, distinct phrases operates much like poetry. I am happy that you found company in John and Jonathan. I understand the difficulty of turning these revolving thoughts into actionable work but take heart in that you will find people to listen, and you would be doing a great favor to our times. Whatever you do, please make sure your words find their way to print, video, or library.
With much love and respect,
Diego
Chris' point about comparing the individual experience of transformation to that of the communal is very much on point. I remember times of great confusion in my life, caused I believe by my attempt to cling to outdated modes of being. I struggled a lot during those times, trying to conform to those modes. They just didn't work anymore. What eventually happened was that the struggle one day ended, and with that the "problem" disappeared. I moved on. Mind, it took a lot of suffering to get to that place. It seems to me that a lot of what is going on communally is that people are trying shore up modes of life that are no longer possible. Personally, I do believe we are at a moment of collapse, and I think it is a good thing. In fact, I think it is because the Holy Spirit is dragging us to something new. Like a painting, the new thing will be made up of many of the same "colors" as the old, only spread on the canvas differently. When this new painting is finished, we will stand back and see something beautiful.
Brilliantly put! I had tears reading this as it is so true for me personally and in terms of my community. Thank you.
The feelings Pageau describes in the first five minutes of the tectonic plates shifting and an existential crisis is exactly how I felt since the beginning of 2020. A complete ripping apart and of isolation. I can’t wait for this to pass.
Stories are coming to the surface when they are ready. It’s like they have a life of its own.
Wonderful conversation!
I got called Messi yesterday. So, I pretended to be offended on purpose😅
I feel like you are opening discussing secrets that my spirit longed to hear. And that I had only heard faint whispers of before.
Jonathan, I'm only a quarter of the way through, but this is already perhaps the best conversation you've ever had on RUclips. Full of revelatory and forward-thinking ideas. Fantastic stuff.
Every single part of this conversation resonated with me and my personal life in one way or another. Loved it!
yes! yes! love is the foundation of everything! this is our direction in Emergent World research.
What a beautiful conversation!
I have just finished a powerful series of lectures on Rene Girard. His ideas around the scapegoat mechanism as an organizing tool are profound and I believe worthy of attention by this corner of the internet. As a child, a clergyman told me that Christ was the ultimate scapegoat, the final sacrifice which ended the practice of blood sacrifice.
Girard changed my perspective as well and really helped me intellectually embrace my faith after personal revelation changed my heart. Curious which lectures you watched and if you could link.
Also if you didn’t see it, pageau just did a great live stream interview with someone who writes on Girard right before Christmas
@@SL-es5kb youtube.com/@johnathan_bi
@@SL-es5kb I’m curious as to these lectures as well
@@SL-es5kb I did see that and really appreciated the dialogue but I don't think the full implications have been explored.
Thanks Chris and Jonathan!
Excellent conversation! As to what we confront in solitude I found what was said very relevant. My prayer lately is that God either defeat my negative behavior or use it in a positive way and so sublimate it (because I've become less confident in my own judgement of what is "negative" any more; fog of war?). I'm inviting Him to take over all of it because I'm certainly unsure
Jonathan don't worry we all have to hit the dictionary after listening to Chris and his ability to speak a beautiful symphony into sentences.
The last 15 min of this was beautiful.
Really great part near the end about surrendering the creation of storytelling to the unconscious. I've been doing that with a writing project I'm working on and later I come to realize there is symbolism in it that I never noticed. Really great stuff! I just need to find the best way to allow the unconscious to bring those ideas forward. It almost never really happens when I'm planning for it.
I am that way with my craft too. Whole patterns, whole stories!..come together. It is the best. Only thing we must do is get out of the way. I do all sorts of handicrafts, but examples: I dye my yarn or paper with plants I find immediately outside. I draw with my non-dominant hand, things like that. There are little ways to get your foot in the door, imo.
Thanks
Jonathan your RUclips is blowing up and I am here for it. Love it
We need more Chris 😎
Ahhhhh Yeeeee! Pageau! Que onda compa! Happy New Year! 2023 AD!
Once you see the light... you will never forget its quality ... no matter how dark the darkness gets. There is no going back. There is no forgetting. That is religio
Thank you for putting into words what i felt
It is always useful to us simple mortals when valuable people do not enter academia. Scientific papers are read by very few people. Professors speak to tiny groups. Universities often feel like luxury prisons of knowledge. In the old days, there were imprisoned aristocrats. Their prisons looked like castles. The guards bowed and behaved like servants. Unless the prisoner tried to escape. Then they behaved like guards. Modern universities were once like such prisons. Now they are prisons with certain kinds of ideologies and pronouns and what else. In the old days the guards knew that when they were guarding the king's brother, they were not assuming his gender.
Only last year did I learn you can talk and analyse philosophically while speaking like a regular person. I did not know this was true and I always rejected philosophy for how impenetrable it can be. I'm glad people like Chris and Jonathan and Jordan are here to show that we can think things more deeply than we perhaps thought :)
The pagan story of the lake of forgetfullness after death and the need to remember after the lake that allows a soul to travel to heaven
Wonderful discussion!! Deliciously heady.
This is a fine conversation.
Truly some inspiring and exciting moments in this conversation. I really enjoyed this very much. Would love it if next time you guys get the chance to go even more into creativity and self-sacrifice and the way fractal patterns happen at every scale.
just wow amazing
Great conversation! Can't wait for the fairytales!
Lovely conclusions 🧡
Jonathan, your book idea sounds incredibly interesting, I pray the process produces good fruit
It's as if we have entered an age of profound paradoxes. On the one hand we are being engulfed in a tsunami of new affordances yet so many of us feel powerless, without traction because we lack a sense of place for getting traction. Our sense of 'home' has become so tenuous, almost to the point of being ephemeral. Yet we are enticed by our possibilities but overwhelmed by the anguished knowledge of how contingent these possibilities are on our increasingly attenuated sense of togetherness. We have almost forgotten how to engage in true communion and genuine fellowship. Your conversation and John's is indispensable.
Wonderful 😊
At 41:00, I wish I could Super Chat a question now - do you think that someone, a spouse or loved one, can be brought to reintegration? When you share a home/life with someone, if one person experiences this awakening and the other is still firmly rooted in the material status quo, how do you proceed?
"Creating fairytales but in a post modern collage sort of way". I have actually tried to do something like this. I made a esoteric compilation of video and audio clips and put it to music. Funny enough, I actually sampled Pageaus voice for one part. It probably seems like nonsense to most people, but it is one of the few things I created where I genuinely felt like merely the vessel of some higher entity. This year I want to do so again. But this time around, produce something that won't just make people think I'm a schizo. Lol.
I keep telling people I’m German for a reason. If there’s one thing I’m familiar with it’s definitely fairytales🐸
You are right....
Dabbe is here!!!!
The catholic semiotics guy is dr Brian Kemple, student of John Dealy, who wrote the Four Ages of Understanding. He could probably be a great guest to talk to eventually.
happy new year everybody!
Woah! Talk about participating in an unfolding pattern... in humility. Jonathan and Christopher demonstrating such mystical poesis in real-time is so... so... fractal!
Christ is born! Glorify Him! Happy New Year!
20:58 I like the way he brought that around! It's almost like the video was scripted and he managed to find his way through the philosophical and theological forest just to arrive back where he started (the beginning of the video), but with a new perspective as he saids!
Does anyone knows the title of the show mentioned by Christopher in "mystical creativity" part?
I’m liking the new symbol. Is that a hybrid of some kind? I thought it was a lion but I didn’t think you would give it claws like that if it was a lion. Pretty cool.
He explained it in a patron video. It has to do what he and Matthieu have been talking about. Think of the symbols of his other drawing
“The Cosmic Mountain”
I'm a bit lost. They talk about a new movement. Can someone help me understand what it is?
The world groans. The edges rush in toward the center, but they cannot exist properly there. The center will hold, but those “labor pains” are real. Without Christ, there is no hope of reconciliation.
Good music is like an idea that everyone knows yet cannot express. Perhaps these stories are the same?
Covid really exposed the system in big ways. It’s still impossible to see the world the way we did before that all happened. It was strong in all the wrong ways, and weak in the worst ways too. It shook my faith in the system in a lot of ways.
I’m yearning for human friendships and relationships.
I felt the shift too. Thank you for sharing Jonathan! I relate completely. Creeping into the great conjunction.
a sin is a transgression of the limit, God created the universe through organized self limitation, he sacrificed himself, his omnipotence to become a particular aspect, so for us to know God we must inhabit the limits given by God, and when we sin we realize that we have passed the limit and in that we can better understand how to live inside the limits given by God or you can chose to transgress more limits and live in that manner until you become a transgression so you don't have more God-organized limits in the created order meaning you die from confusion (coagulation) and/or from dissociation from any link with the source of reality (dissolve)
Very interesting what Christopher was saying related to Kierkegaard, and the need to ground yourself outwards, away from ego-centrism, as a means of relieving anxiety. I agree, but the caveat, is that is precisely the free-floating anxiety that Desmet talks about in the pre-total state, so it can be attached to false idols and state worship.
Some of the video games of Hidetaka Miyazaki are kind of about mapping out mythological solutions to the zombie problem.
Also Slavoj Zizek has interesting ideas on the undead
I think something that when unnoticed was the fact that christ is not just the logos but the redeemer! The logos can draw you but cannot save you unless he becomes flesh and take our place and unites us to Him, he needs to come down to us as redeemer! This is exclusively christian revelation.
Could you do an analysis of the symbolism of crowns? Or if you have already, point me to that video
Right. I'm going to start using "coextensive" rather than "fractal" to avoid the weird looks.
Coincidentally, would "love" and "wisdom" be decent summaries, respectively, of Christ's right and left hand? Love accepts and wisdom discerns.
@33 min. I've found the old adage, "birds of a feather, flock together" is so true. As a cop, I used to talk with parents who bemoaned their child falling in with the wrong crowd, as if it was the fault of those other bad kids. In the mean time the other kids parents were saying the same thing about their kid. Lots of finger pointing and little personal accountability.
Do not fear
During the final part of the conversation, about the creative process, and letting the story and characters kind of develop themselves, gave me this small hint of God's creative process that is very helpful to me. I notice this... I guess I'll call it pattern, that I can't quite put my finger on. It's about how chaotic and arbitrary our existence seems to be, which is not "incompatible" with God's perfection, but it seems very counterintuitive that His creation would be this way. I guess this particular question is also what lies at the heart of the question: "How can a perfect God create sinful creatures?"
The core of the answer is free will, and I'm beginning to get a feeling for the way that this free will ties in with the artistic process. There's a paradoxical thing about it, where these characters come entirely from my own imagination, and yet in the creative process they seem to develop a mind of their own that seems separate from mine. I suspect that God's process of our creation is a lot like that. It seems odd for a God with such fundamental, thorough knowledge of all possible things, to surprise Himself with His own imagination, and perhaps that's not quite what it is, but I think it's getting close.
His vocabulary is impeccable
He spends a lot of time with Vervaeke. And it showed.
Methinks he might be descended from Italians.
I'm afraid to do anything after i woke up cus i can see the good and bad of actions. i had a rude awakening after sending a radio frequency to my brain. You know how you just don't want to see all the truth anymore, it's too much. All these people waking up and feeling overwhelmed by becoming a different type of person no one in your current life can understand. We need gathering places like parks with music when the weather gets better :)
This partners so well with To Will and To Do by Jacques Ellul. If anyone wants to talk about this, I'd love to connect with you
I’d be interested in hearing your own take on it. I’m not familiar with the work, but might pursue it based on your review.
I’d very much like to hear your thoughts on the Hellboy comics if you ever read them, it’s the single piece of art that came the closest to making me a christian.
What you said about practicing forgiveness towards others allowing us to see the love of God I believe is absolutely the case. In fact forgiving someone who wronged me and didnt deserve any forgiveness, but being shown by another christian example in my life that i needed to forgive him, was what ultimately led me to see what Christ did for me, and after that i got baptized almost directly after. Never realized this before until you layed it out this way.
I cannot wait to read these fairy tales. Cannot wait to read them with my daughters!
I would like to volunteer an example of the breakdown-reintegration cycle Jonathan described at 20:00-21:07. My daughter turned 6 in December and my son is 3 turning 4 in June. At some point in the past 6 months they became self-conscious at bath time. Now I can see my daughter has reintegrated at a higher level but at the price of that specific innocence lost. There is no recuperating it. I can see it play out in my family how. it impacts us individually when the larger community is fragmented and breaking apart and strong male leaders are no where to be seen.
I would much appreciate if legends in English are on.
sum’times, relative to time
🔺
only the incorrect-ion; æ
was the only gno’n
🔻
the catalyze the correction; æ
from outside (sources)
•
Thus, the past ‘olam
is eh yeh; rewritten
I felt exactly how you felti n 2016/2017 Jonathan. Tough times.
Highly enlightened..
I get that these guys are philosophers and thinkers, but I wonder if they understand how exhausting it is to try and understand what they’re trying to communicate.
Somehow someone like Jordan Peterson manages to communicate it all on a very simple level but some of these other guys use such esoteric language. I’m often left just feeling lost.
There are a few people who can bridge the gap between what these guys know and talk about with each other and the people who need it.
Awesome guys! As an artist myself this resonates. Thank you.
is chris on twitter?
I don't think so. I couldn't easily find any contact info. Curious about his role for the AFTMC book
this verse i think is really pertinent towards the end of the conversation relating to storytelling and people writing stories without planning the whole thing out from the beginnnign: "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
I was just thinking last week how we are in need of new fairy tales/nursery rhymes, I would love to see where you go with this!!!
Excellent. bloody love Art !
Happy Holidays Johnathan 💝 and Chris
Hey guys you are so amazingly ...💚💛❤️✝️✝️✝️🙏🙏🙏
Please make a video about what is the symbolism behind these people on youtube having a snake as a "loving" pet. Please. I'm hurting not having a symbolic analysis of this phenomenon.
Its just psychology. ask Petersom
@@Hbmd3E it'd be interesting to hear his opinion as well
I would love to see something on the symbolism of the round table vs. the rectangular table and how that ties into hierarchy, structure, etc. Perhaps the history of art ties into this somehow, all the anti-structuralism and how the change in buildings and living conditions has contributed (cities leading to this anxiety of The Matrix) to this rebellion against too much structure.
Thank you!
While something like dialogos seems like a necessary step or phase, I am concerned that human beings in their deep seated self-centeredness will end up devouring each other without belief in the transcendent source as we see in Law of Attraction practitioners and the like.
I appreciate your comment. I'd like to recommend you look at Thomas Troward, an Edwardian British writer who is both a committed, thoughtful Christian and someone in the "law of Attraction" camp, but from an intellectually deeper place than the current gurus thereof! You can read his "Bible Mystery and Bible Meaning" online free with a quick Google search. I have found his philosophy a way of being a heartfelt , basically orthodox Christian mystic who also understands what's called the 'law of attraction" from a higher perspective than the usual "name it and claim it" ilk! He's basically orthodox if you can make allowances for a quasi-panentheistic POV on things.
Hero with a thousand faces was published in 1948 and he stood on the shoulders of Jung and others so you've never been alone...It always takes a while to bring the left brain on the ride lol
Oh my! You even brought in Kierkegaard! Perfect!
The last part about forgetting before creating is totally McGilchrist.
Tutto is McGilchrist
every moment of confusion is an opportunity to understand
People are witnessing and feeling exhausted and the emptiness of their lives, and becoming curious of those demonstrating the provision’s of the Cross. Those awakened are sensitive to The Spirit of Jesus are becoming enlightened, enlivened and encouraged by God’s presence and seeking more than ever and appropriately God’s Word and witnessing Jesus Christ presence, and the pattern’s occurring in the schematic storylines entering; chapters of our own lives meeting with the chapter’s of others. For me personally, the year 2023 is meeting and learning from those who are perceiving and earnestly desire to love and care well for those who cannot, do not, or will not accept Jesus. So many thoughts we cannot explain, and so much more to explore and those responding with interests in knowledge sharing and seeking to support others are forming, almost as an unplanned or unintentional, but yet forming a powerful gathering requiring depth, and awakening to those whom are of lesser interest in Christ, the Church, serving, loving well; depthless.
Personally I’m sensing my need to study further Isaiah, Acts and Romans in preparation for what I have not fully received, yet recognized, or desiring God to provide me significant reminder’s.
Exceptional messaging and must relished as too many thoughts immediately leading me to write without fully listening. Ugh, yet hoping you receive that very thought as compliments of this pertinent message to your viewers.
Those who welcome us, we’ll learn and gather together, and for those who do not have interests in our thoughts, words, actions and deeds we pray for, as God’s introductions we give pause and pray for God to help us understand the purposes or importances of the momentary nor longevity of each synchronized experience and messaging we are to recall, receive, recognize, or recommend to others.
Sharing a passage in hopes compliments my initial thoughts…
Acts 28:23-30
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
23 So when they had set a day with him, they came in large numbers to his lodging. And he fully set forth and explained the matter to them from morning until night, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
24 And some were convinced and believed what he said, and others did not believe.
25 And as they disagreed among themselves, they began to leave, [but not before] Paul had added one statement [more]: The Holy Spirit was right in saying through Isaiah the prophet to your forefathers:
26 Go to this people and say to them, You will indeed hear and hear with your ears but will not understand, and you will indeed look and look with your eyes but will not see [not perceive, have knowledge of or become acquainted with what you look at, at all].
27 For the heart (the understanding, the soul) of this people has grown dull (stupid, hardened, and calloused), and their ears are heavy and hard of hearing and they have shut tight their eyes, so that they may not perceive and have knowledge and become acquainted with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their souls and turn [to Me and be converted], that I may heal them.
28 So let it be understood by you then that [this message of] the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen [to it]!
29 [a]And when he had said these things, the Jews went away, arguing and disputing among themselves.
30 After this Paul lived there for two entire years [at his own expense] in his own rented lodging, and he welcomed all who came to him,
Fascinating conversation about your future plans. I look forward to reading your fairy tales. Will your daughter he helping with the illustrations? She is truly gifted. ❤
The first few minutes describe my journey completely, university utterly decimated my naive faith, I spent 20 years in the wilderness, then came to a deeper understanding, renewed and strong, all previous arguments that crushed me now seem pathetic.
The many plagues in the late Medieval wiped out half the population of Europe. What’s left? Wealth, land, leisure, tons of food…….
Not too sure it was the suffering
This is a deeply beautiful conversation! Tremendously important connection.
It turns out “icon carver“ scales
But some recognize the patterns begin to fall into the law of attraction dangers.
Thought is only language😭
I'm already loving this!
Happy New Year Jonathan! Keep up the amazing thought provoking content!
🎊📍🙂
Nuit obscure de l'âme.