I am the owner of a small german bikeshop. As we had a lot of snow the last weeks we also had a huge amount of broken belts on cargobikes. It seemes that the snow came between belt and rear sprocket and has exerted such great pressure that the snap ring of the rear sprocket (enviolo) jumped off and was no longer aligned, therefore the belt broke.
Do these bikes have a belt tensioner and no mudguard around the belt? Gates offers the GBT3 belt tensioner and Pinion offers its own, but I see a lot of street bikes without a belt tensioner, but with a static tension system (mostly by adjusting the rear wheel through a screw). I think its not the belts fault if a bikemanufacturer implements a belt without a dynamic belt tensioner and does not enough to protect the belt against snow or mud. Never heared of such problems in case of fullies, because they all have a dynamic belt tensioner installed.
How many belts of how many belted bikes? 😅 Yep, these conditions are not the specified standard as it seems 😅 For commuters using theirbike may be mandatory to get to their office. Wonder if chains do a much better job in harsh snowy conditions... Never tried
The belt is a low maintenance item, for your daily commuter bike or weekend MTB fun. But anything I put on touring must be repairable with common tools.
Once went on a 12 day trip through France and accidentally forgot to pack my seat?!? = don’t ask how. I did some last minute packing and repacking and some how in the confusion left the seat at home. When I arrived in France and was dropped off by a bus just outside the town of Beaune (just a bus station with a bathroom and picnic tables), I assembled my bike and realized the mistake. Had to ride about 10 miles to town without my seat. Borrowed a trash seat to keep my schedule which ended up destroying my ASS then replaced with a comfy seat in Lyon. Lesson learned. Simple is always better when things go wrong (and they eventually will). The carbon gates belt is nice but adds some complexity if things go wrong (if they do, it may be unrecoverable)
And universal between bikes. I don't want a bicycle with a flaw in the rear chain stay. Reinforced or "secured" in some sort of way. Any way you swing it, it's still a flaw in what is supposed to be a solid frame. When they make one that I don't have to have a special bike for it to go on. When it fits where a normal bottom bracket would be. When the belt can be replaced without opening the flaw in your frame. That's when I'll show some interest in it. Until all of that, all I see is another fad.
A breakdown far from civilization will always shake you to the core. A lot of us don't think much about the non-repairable things until they scare the bejeezus out of us. BB's can fail. Frames can crack. Hubs can fail for bearings or flanges. Freehubs can die. Rims can break. Tires, tubes, and tubeless systems can all ruin your day/trip. One can get extra paranoid and ride a heavier bike that is better built for loads, but we are all subject to occasional problem that shakes our self-sufficiency belief.
Two things that commuter bikes have (at least in the Netherlands) is encased chains and fenders. It is so nice to arrive at work without oil on your leg and a wet bottom.
The plastic covers for the chain can at least be fairly easily fitted to most commuter bikes since these components have become pretty standardized. Some people really dislike how they look though, so I think it's just become more common to make the bike visually appeal to all riders, and then just have the cover as a cheap aftermarket option.
@SethAbercromby #friction is a real thing that will ensue from such plastic chain-cases. I tried one for a year or so, then removed it for a chain-change, and have not refitted as it was *SO* much freer-spinning without it
@petesig93 Not to discount your own experience, but the aftermarket ones I've seen shouldn't be making much contact with the pedal shaft after you've secured them, but maybe a pinch of lubrication might be worth keeping in mind if I ever get bothered enough to install one.
Looking at it from an engineering perspective, the Pinion does the torque multiplication at the front of the bike, vs an internally geared rear hub doing the torque multiplication at the back of the bike. Doing the torque multiplication at the front means the belt is going to get a LOT more tension on a Pinion bike.
@RustyKnorr Watts is power. Power is torque times angular velocity. Using a derailleur bike as an example, standing on the pedals in a 24T granny on a triple is going to put a LOT more tension on the chain than standing on the pedals on a 54T big ring. 2.25 times as much. Depending on the pinion gearbox, there can be a 6X range and that low gear can put a lot more tension on the belt than the front ring used with an internal rear hub.
@RustyKnorr You keep talking about power. The issue is not power. The issue is torque. Maybe it would be helpful to you to watch a video about power vs torque in car engines. The Pinion is kind of like when Audi was putting a diesel in a Le Mans car and nobody had a gearbox that could handle the torque. It made about the same power as the gasoline engine cars, but rev'ed lower and made a lot more torque. The Pinion in the low gear is like the granny on a triple chainring bike. The Rohloff setup is essentially the middle ring of a triple chainring bike. All the torque multiplication happens at the back of the bike. The middle ring is never going to put as much tension on a chain as a granny. The Rohloff needs some special stuff done on the back of the bike which a Pinion bike doesn't need, because the Rohloff is dealing with the torque issues at the back.
@RustyKnorrfor an alleged pro mechanic, its amazing how little you know about actual mechanics, as in physics, and very basics of physics indeed. I guess you don't need to finish primary school to be a good mechanic? "The amount of force applied to the wheel is the same" - you seem to be mistaking 3 core ideas of physics: force, power, and torque. those are 3 different terms, please read about them. 1st is measured in Newtons, 2nd in Watts, 3rd in Newton meters. it will be relevant below. "Gear inches are still gear inches, and a human being is only able to put the same number of watts into any given gear inch." it is precisely the opposite. that's what gearboxes are for. trade speed for moment. lets take couple of examples: 1. you start a car in 1st gear, wheels might spin/slide. might happen in 2nd gear, probably wont happen in 6th. why? torque on wheels is few times bigger in the 1st gear than 6th, using same engine with same power 2. those gear inches, lets assume we have 20 gear inches in the lowest gear, and 100 in the top one. so a rider, using same power makes 1 full spin on pedals. in the lowest gear - makes 20 inches, in the top one - 100 - so per every inch of travel, there is 5 times less power. also you might have noticed as a mechanics, that most mechanical equipment mentions torque capacity (in Nm's) and not power. or force. for example screws: with 5 cm / 2 inch long allen key, you might have issues screwing one in, and with 3m / 10 ft one a small toddler would screw it into the abyss. oh maybe you heard about Archimedes' quote "give me a place to stand on, and i'll move the Earth? did he mean he would become all mighty and powerful? nope, he meant leverage. gearbox is leverage :P having Pinion gearbox is effectively like having 6/9/12/18 chainrings in the front. so obviously, depending on gear, you have different torque going to the sprocket. using P18 as an example, that would be chainrings ranging from 10t to 64t. I really do hope you take a challenge of understanding those concepts, otherwise, looking at your cockiness, I'm afraid you might be stuck on Dunning-Kruger's Peak of Mount Stupid.
Haha I think even if my Pinion gearbox did brake down in the next year, I'd still see it as worthwhile. Four years of heavy use without a single issue, so even if I did have a break, I wouldn't be going back to a derailleur for expedition riding any time soon!
In 65 years cycling not one broken chain, three years with belt drive bicycle two broken belts, soon realised that a good front mudguard to keep dust off belt was needed, since then no problems.
I ride my components until they rattle and squeak, and i never had a broken chain either. Shimano standard 3*9 for life. I even buy neglected cheap quality bikes and put the used drivetrain on my bike. The problem is pushing new underdeveloped ideas into the market. The cashcow has to be milked somehow
Damn that had to be such a horrible feeling when the second belt snapped and the realization set in. This is my first exposure to your channel. Excellent work and you truly are living my dream out there.
@madsam0320 how do Gates belts come packaged when new? A quick search by me just shows them as bare belts; no packaging. There is nothing to open, and safe storage when on a long or remote-area tour is *always* going to be an issue.
@petesig93 you can always put it back in the packaging it came with, or put it in a bag or box. As long as they are kept in clean condition, they will last for a long time.
I’ve got a priority 600 and carried 2 backup belts. I wrapped them in bubble wrap and worried about crimp. I didn’t have to use them, but I definitely need to check them.
They’re light enough that two isn’t really a big deal compared to 40lbs of gear, water, and food. Or three if it’s life or death. Shim the crimp with plastic to keep it from flexing. I’m neurotic as hell though, and have had about everything that can break on a bike break, fortunately never in critical situation.
@dudeonbike800 even worse, is a paranoid to need to carry 4 greased up metal chained belts. Image being so paranoid one will "go out" let alone 4 will go out at the same thing, really dumb
I’ve done numerous bike packing trips and loved it; so I decided i wanted a bike with a Pinion gearbox. I went to a bike shop in Spain, where I live, that specialises in bike packing. I told the shop owner/ bike builder that I wanted a bike built with a pinion. The first thing he asked was what type of terrain do I ride, once I told him 60% off road he recommended a chain for the reasons that you mention in your video. I’d also seen another RUclipsr , Mat Ryder break the Gatesdrive out in New Zealand and also I saw your video about the breakages in Colorado, I also think Ryan Van Duzer broke his. I’ve no doubt that the belt drives are superb but for the very reasons you changed I decided I wanted to have a chain fitted to my Pinion. Love watching your channel
And you can get chains anywhere, or change the length on the spot. Chains are a great tech, I just don't like how derailleurs treat them sometimes, especially those thin thin ones for 8+ speeds.
I think Ryan Van Duzer's break was due to the belt coming off and him then slipping it on at the top of the chainset and pushing down on the pedal stroke. He did a video with Pinion and or the makers of his bike about it. They told him off!
... we can also state that 'in principle carbon belts are great' - now what I mean by that - well, say you manufacture them, how many QA personel you have, how much scrutiny is put on the carbon inner cords? In 2017 it could be that 1/3 of production went to end customer, now it may be 1/2 - it does not mean the belts are made better, it just means the tollerances were lowered? Possible?
As someone who has worked for company that sold frames with belt drive compatibility, I was always a bit concerned about those who chose to use a belt for long distance touring or bikepacking. Just a little twist. Talk about Achille’s heel.
The problem is the combination with the pinon gearbox. Because you do the torque multiplication at the front you have way more force pulling at the belt. There are reports also on RUclips with Rohloff gearhub combination and no problems.
Thank you for this video. A couple of years ago I built up an Ogre around a Rohloff hub that uses a chain. I really like it, but there's always this nagging idea in the back of my head that maybe I should get a bike with a belt, even though it solves a problem I don't really have. Now maybe I can put that idea to rest.
Well, the fact that he had a mid drive gearbox probably made a big difference. The belt would experience a LOT higher max tension with that set up, unlike with a hub gear.
@dandcc9192 Why it would? Maybe I am missing something... it doesn't really matter where the "gearing" is, does it? Front or back. It's still going to exert the same power through the belt. Or am I missing something obvious?
@nomindseye You are missing something, but maybe not something very obvious. Try doing torque calculation. Or a more intuitive way of explaining this would be, let's assume we are going up the same incline on a bike with mid gear shift and then on a bike with hub gears. From the rider's perspective, let's assume about the same cadence as when you are on flat ground. Mid gear shift, as the torque on the wheel increases, the tension on the belt increases proportionally, correct? It doesn't matter if you shift into lower gear in the front. The wheel experiences higher torque and turns more slowly as you go uphill, and the belt experiences higher tension and travels more slowly. Hub gear shift, as the the torque on the wheel increases when you are going uphill, you will shift into lower gear. That will mean that the wheel's sprocket will turn more revolution per a revolution the wheel does. The wheel will experience higher torque, and turn more slowly, the same as with a mid-shift bike, but the belt will experience about the same tension as on flat ground, but travel a lot faster. Force*distance = energy When you go uphill, the energy expenditure is higher. The mid shift bike, from the belt's perspective, compensates for this by increasing F, meaning increased tension. Hub shift bike, from the belt's perspective, compensates for this by increasing d, meaning F stays the same. Another way to look at is that, because in a midshift bike, the rider is upstream from the gearbox but the belt is downstream from the gearbox, the rider gets the benefits of the mechanical advantage the gearbox provides, but the belt does not get this benefit. With the hub shift, because both the rider and the belt are upstream from the gearbox, both the rider and the belt get the mechanical advantage the gearbox provides.
Mate, brings back my painful memories when I was working in a tile factory maintaining the production line equipment running in belts. Thank you for sharing. Power on!
I thought you added a bell sound when passing the dog and thought it was pretty cool. I watched it again and it was the notification bell and you just happened to be passing the dog. Funny.
Been using a pinion bicycle for two years. No issues. Done Perth to Melbourne going through sandy desert. But I do admit would have been in trouble if something broke.
An interesting thing about this, these belts are essentially the same as automotive timing belts, Gates is even one of the top manufacturers of them. One thing that almost all timing belts have in common though is that they are always covered. When installed on an engine there is a front and rear timing cover sealed to keep even the relatively fine dust particles found in an engine bay from contaminating and damaging the belt. It seems that the admittedly more complicated solution would be a belt cover/ guard that is also sealed to keep the dirt, mud and grit out under the less than ideal conditions your belts were put through. Still more complicated than a chain and doesn't solve the other issues you found, but a step the right way perhaps
I don't buy vehicles with timing belts because of higher service intervals and lower reliability compared to a chain. Manufacturers have moved away from using timing belts in recent years due to said issues.
I bought a belt drive bike about three years ago for the usual reasons: low maintenance and durability (supposedly), but I’m also switching back to a chain. My newest bike has a traditional chain, and while cleaning and lubing it is a minor inconvenience, it’s not that time consuming. What turned me off the belt drive is that I live in a VERY dusty climate, and you weren’t exaggerating when you described the annoying grinding sound of dust on the belt. I use silicone spray on it, but that only lasts so long, and the silicone spray itself makes the belt dirty, which negates the whole “the belt is so clean” myth. I still have the belt drive bike and use it for grocery shopping, but it’s going to eventually be replaced with a more traditional chain drive bike.
All depends on the conditions. I cycle every single day through western europe winter forests, and gates cdx is the absolute champion. No chain would sustain such wet and grit conditions, and I certainly do not miss fingers hurting from freezing cold for everyday chain cleaning...
Chains still gum up with dust and dirt. Lube can easily be washed off. Plus chains and derailleurs sound like a combine harvester. In my experience belts are far superior.
Having been a bicycle mechanic before I switched to a different line of work most recently, I've seen these belts fail for reasons most people wouldn't think were real. Here are some examples other than wear and tear: Poor belt alignment to the point that the belt's teeth have been split in half. Don't ask me how that made it past quality control at the respective OEM. One belt needed to be replaced after merely 300km of use. A pebble with a diameter of no more than 3mm got wedged between the belt and the sprocket, effectively pushing the pebble through the carbon fibre and thus eliminating like half of the belt's tensile strength. Can't let that stay on a pedelec. Gates denied warranty, for understandable reasons - customer mad, we mad. We ended up charging less for the new belt and the labour was for free, about close to half off overall, because we did, in fact, like our customers. Needless to say, nobody likes to lose money like that. Then you have the droves of people falling for 'maintenance-free'. Belts are anything but. Belts and and sprockets are subject to wear and tear, just like bicycle chains. If your bike doesn't have a spring loaded tensioning thingamabob installed, you will need to adjust the tension every once in a while, manually. Neglect leads to failure. Simple as that. If you don't know what you are doing while tensioning a belt, you may run into trouble sooner than you would like. A bike's drive train isn't perfectly 'centered' or 'symmetrical', one moment the tension feels just right, but turn the cranks another 90° or 180° and you might get a vastly different result. It is shocking to me that even to this day what feels like half of the mechanics aren't even aware of this. How would the layman possibly know? These belts have a specific max and min pre-tension, exceed the max and hit the cranks hard going uphill for a while, and your 12.000 mile expectation becomes but a wet dream. I could go on for quite a while here. In fact, if I also started talking about the desolate state of available replacement parts, which may leave customers waiting for weeks at a time, while our former shop would take like 99% of the blame btw, I'd die of old age right here.
Just look at a chain on a single speed oscillating up and down as you turn the cranks. The illusion that drivetrains are perfectly symmetrical is a joke to mechanics. (25 year former pro here)
@RustyKnorrYou'd hope so. From people doing internships to mechanics who were around for 10 years or longer, the number of people who still don't get it, let alone how severe that oscillation can be, despite looking at it every single day, is staggering. I really hate to say this, because mouthing off about former colleagues, eventhough they probably never get to read this, just doesn't sit right with me... The severity of the lack of interest in their own work is one big compounding factor that led to my decision to change up my line of work. I started out at the age of 18, now I'm 43 and I just can't do it anymore. Not when people stop caring, not for the slave wages some shops would pay. I get it, barebones pay leads to barebones performance eventually, but doing it right ought to be the minimum when there's a human life sitting on that bike.
The few belts I've encountered in a 6 year span, old dude claiming he wants a maintenance free bike. And I'm like nah dude, that doesn't exist. And we had a bike in for service that needed new tire and all the bolts were rusted so it took forever to clean everything up so we could detention and get things working, and as a forty something mechanic I'm curious what did you go switch to? Cause I'm looking for other things
@spitt0110I guess it'll be hard for me to give pointers or recommend anything, since what's available depends largely on the respective local job-market. That being said, I got a position as an 'object manager' for a relatively big local company. So, what I do now has to do mostly with planning shifts, and discussing resource allocation with the head honcho. All with the goal of keeping things in the building in shape and up to date. Knowing a thing or two about mechanics certainly helped, but what sealed the deal in the end was that I was inside the building, waiting in front of HR while nobody knew I was already there. I let myself in. Security concerns are a hot topic, me being able to spot and exploit a weakness sealed the deal. I picked up lock picking as a side hustle. Customers losing keys or breaking them off in the keyway comes with the territory, so I educated myself. Offering that as a service made our shop some good money, provided the supposed customer was able to prove that they owned what I was about to open. If there's any real advice I can give, do something where the risk of getting replaced by an automated machine is as low as possible, otherwise your head is on the chopping block the minute you sign the contract. Considering how poor the pay for mechanics tends to be at times, even working as a janitor wouldn't have been beneath me. I was lucky I got in a bit above that, to be fair.
This is not correct. I have used up two belts in my time, each of them 20,000 km (that is about tree times as far as a high quality chain). There is zero maintenence. I have never adjusted anything. I just put on a new belt and ride for 20,000 km. Besides, you can be unlucky with a chain too. I have had a Campagnolo Record chain fail after about 200 km.
Expedition cyclist on a belt drive here! 👋 I also ride 99%+ off-road, and likely many of the same routes as you. I’ve logged around 180,000 km on belt drivetrains across every continent except Antarctica. All of my belt drivetrains have lasted between 20,000 and 35,000 km, though that has depended heavily on environmental conditions. South America treated my belts well, while Africa definitely accelerated wear (sand!). I use the spare belts that I carry whenever I wear a belt out, so I've managed to keep them from crimping, even in all the rough terrain I ride. That said, if I had your experience with belts, I would definitely swap back to chains too! Buuuut..... I’m not convinced you ran into a fundamental flaw with belt drives, simply given the experience of many other expedition cyclists. A few factors could have contributed to your premature wear or breakage, and it may well have been a combination of them: - Misalignment is a major one, particularly when it comes to accelerated wear. - Running the belt with too little tension can also shorten component life. - Insufficient frame stiffness can allow the belt to ride up or skip under load, potentially damaging the internal cords. - And as you found, storage matters too - improper packing can compromise a belt before it’s even fitted. I completely agree on one point, though: sticky mud is brutal with belts, especially when it’s mixed with small rocks. Thankfully, I only encounter that kind of mud about once a year on average, and I usually walk those sections to avoid damaging the drivetrain. Anyway, thanks for the video! I just wanted to offer an alternative perspective, as I don’t think your experience necessarily reflects what most off-road belt riders encounter.
Watching the video I thought about leaving a comment on your videos asking about how many km you put in a belt drivetrain before wearing it and if you had experience the same issues depicted in this video. And then I found the answer in the comments, Ja. One point that you will have to agree is that belt drives are way much harder to find than chains, and that you could get stuck in a remote country for a long time before you get a new one. Anyway, 20.000 km it's a fair amount of distance between replacements.
It seems to me that proper alignment, proper tensioning and proper storage are all things that might be challenges on these types of mega adventures. If it's that sensitive to less then ideal conditions it sounds like a bit of a drawback of the system.
I think a wide chain designed for singlespeed/fixie bikes will last just as long as a belt, and it will still work even when technically worn. Those sprockets for wide chains are also incredibly durable.
Its funny how in the end city bike mechanics are always right, said this when the first gates bikes came out, its great when it works, expensive and hard when it does not work.
ah, but being highly impractical, unreliable, and expensive is part of keeping cycling a middle-class *prestige* activity, instead of reliable and affordable transportation for the mere proletarian masses, and we wouldn't want to deprive the so-called middle class of their exclusive access to a hobby, now would we?
Yep, the biggest strength of a chain is the fact it's a modular design. You can easily source links even if a complete chain isn't available in the middle of nowhere. This even applies to a lot of knowledge in the manufacturing industry. Modular construction oftentimes will outweigh monolith designs as it means it's very easy to mass produce said modular parts and scale them out as needed.
@peaceandquiet1917 As a working class person who cycles for utility and to get to places because I have no car, I always found chains to be being highly impractical, unreliable, and expensive as my mechanical skills are mediocre. My two years of belt drive have been a delight.
@ryoukokonpaku1575I worked on a lot of old bikes and they have pads that allowed you to position your wheel so the chain tension was good, and fully enclosed chainguards. And the chains where thicker and heavier. This setup was was abandoned at some point by the industry but I still feel it's superior to anything we have now in terms of repairability and adjustability.
@Airlane1979 it does depend on which chain you get. unfortunately, there's a lot of nonsense online about chains being "expendable", and thus not worth investing in, but a high-quality chain makes a world of difference! investing in a really nice wipperman chain is worth it, if you ever try chains out again. i have a wipperman SR8 on a bike with surly rear and front cogs that I converted to a singlespeed and i've ridden the same configuration for about a year and a half now through all sorts of conditions, and there's barely any wear. all that said, i can appreciate that belts have some utility, but i still think that they're unnecessarily expensive and finnicky.
The snapped belt is mostly because of the worn teeth. These will be knives after they wear out. Check that, as a Dutch bike mechanic I've seen this loads of times here. But that is because of the misunderstanding that belt drives are maintenance "free". When some rocks/debris squeeze in the belt you'll have excessive wear and therefore your belt will eventually snap. Hopefully I've helped some people with this!
@iceI3urn it is if you do your maintenance and make sure your sprockets are in good shape too nothing wrong with the gates drive system It’s people installing it wrong we’re thinking they can just ride and do no maintenance whatsoever.
@iceI3urn they may not require maintenance, but belts require attention to make sure the whole system (cogs, alignment, etc.) is in good shape and well set up
You make some solid points. I started bikepacking 30 years ago, long before it was called that. I have come across other cyclists who have had belt failures. All of my bikes have been chain driven. I was recently gifted an older bike with the Rohloff hub. I was quite happy that it had a chain system. Chains may need more cleaning and maintenance regularly, but their ability to be easily patched up makes them the reliable choice for me. Thanks for the vid!
@mrwow1667 I can see two things partially explaining this : "low maintenance" users are usually ones that don't ride too much and don't ride too harshly. Sure, they don't maintain the chain much, but they rarely do more than 10km at once and don't push very hard on pedals. Say they ride 14km/day 200 days per year. That is "only" 2800 km per year. As a comparison, an enthusiast road rider can easily do 200km in ONE day. "chain lifespan" is a bit of an ambiguous term. It isn't exactly the time at which a chain will snap, but the time at which the chain has to be changed because it deformed quite "a lot", and can damage other components, be less efficient, or has a higher chance of snapping under intensive use. But if you don't care about those, a chain can last for a VERY long time, even under very harsh conditions.
Some really interesting arguments for both systems. Being in regional (and sometimes dusty and occasionally muddy) Australia, if or when I decide to install internal hub gears, I will stick to chains as I am familiar with their use and maintenance. Thank you for such an informative presentation.
This all makes a TON of sense. When I was on a multi-week self supported bike trip through some remote areas far from civilization, and ended up getting a sidewall blow out, and having to deploy my spare tire (not just tube), I understand the frustration of carrying a deploying a mission critical spare part in the field. These days, I’m primarily a commuter, and in those conditions, the belt drive is AMAZING! The cleanliness, silence, near zero maintenance, and long life time make it an EXCELLENT fit for urban commuting. But I don’t think I’m going to switch out the chain on my touring bike!
Old cycle tourist here again, I noticed the belt was gone. I rode half the GDMBR with a buddy that used a Rohloff hub on his ECR, no problems with his nice wide chain; but my 1x12 needed a new chain in Pinedale, WY. Next Q: The Selle Anatomica saddle. I used to live five miles from their shop in San Diego, CA. After riding a Brooks B-17 for 35 years, I tried the Selle on a new bike build. I found the Selle Anatomica saddle has a swale, sort of hammock like position instead of sit-bone position. It also developed a squeak, so after trying the saddle for a month in different positions, I gave it to another cyclist and returned to the B-17. Love your videos, excellent work and information for bike tourists. ☮
The seats I ride on are Brooks B17, also the notched version, and WTB Speed V saddles. I think for conventional saddles chamois (not thick gel) will help for long duration riding with whatever saddle you're on. Seatpost suspension is also great. My plan is to buy an Infinity Seat and see how well that works with post suspension.
I was also able to snap 2 belts - but on a Qio city bike. The First caused by a small log that my fronttire somehow catched and threw it directly into belt. The second one just on an uphill. My next bike will be chained again.
Good choice! I had my expedition bike custom built and I just drew the line to not have every single component be the supposed "high end" and opted for a chain. Couldn't have been happier, I even criminally neglected maintenance but it could take it. Most importantly, I learned what I truly needed and what was just a shiny object :)
@Breakdown0nice. Durability and simplicity is key I believe. Wheels and drivetrain are two of my main focuses. I went with a rohloff hub for minimal maintenance. I have a recumbent with pinion. Like them both.
One tiny sharp rock that gets stuck in between the sprocket and the belt can end your ride pretty quickly. I used to ride motorcycles and it happened to me on a belt drive motorbike in the middle of nowhere.
Completely wrong for a bike. In reality, if that 1 in a million shot with a pebble went up there on a bike with a belt, no damage would be done, you just wouldnt be able to to peddle? You not understand the rpm difference on a motorcycle vs a bike? That seem very odd to not understand that.
I had a belt drive bike for a bit. Luckily I was near home when it snapped. I messaged Gates about it and they actually warranteed it and gave me a new one, saying that going off the pictures it was a factory defect (horizontal snap). I was definitely happy about saving $100 or so there. $100 or so.... before shipping.... For a belt. And you NEED two of them AT LEAST, to be safe. I ended up selling that bike because that brittleness was just not worth the worry. they're cool, but simply not reliable if you're being tough on your gear, imo. I feel so much more worry free with a chain. I know there are some very experienced riders who swear by them, but I just don't agree, based on experience. I don't want to have to baby the gear that keeps me moving. I prefer simpler things that I can more or less forget about.
@chrisfreemanca the whole debris and mud getting stuck under the belt. The sounds of it (when dirty), I do everything I can to make sure my bike makes as little noise as possible. Its not really maintenance free if u do some dirty riding. And I already have all the stuff to fix chains. So the price it self doesn't seem really worth the trade offs.
I found that a strap wrench for a car oil filter worked on my rear hub. Your point stands, though that this is more of a faff than if you were to use a chain.
Great vid, anybody in need of a belt strap can try a car garage. Mechanics use them to undo the tightest of oil filters. Also has anyone ever tried running lower tyre pressures when the mud is that bad. In Cyclocross the tyres are really soft (for grip) and deviate in shape where it touches the ground. When the shape goes back it kinda shrugs a lot of mud off. Took me a while to figure this out 🤷🏼♂️ but it works
As a former motorcycle/ATV mechanic, I know a little about roller chains/sprockets. All chain/sprocket setups, as they rotate oscillate between tight and loose. As the system wears, this becomes more pronounced. One must set the chain slack while it is in the "tight" position. If slack is set while it is in the "loose" position, it will be too tight when it comes back around to the tight position. Over tightening a chain is the worst thing you can do to it. A toothed belt drive system probably shares the same characteristics...............
"Peanut butter mud isn't that common". I really wish that were the case. Ride in the Eastern US, forest roads are full of it... or even worse... Oklahoma... when it's wet there EVERYTHING that's not tarmac is peanut butter. My Ducati has gates belts... and they're great. BUT... they're sealed under covers. They're rated for 18k miles and every time I've changed them the old belts look like new... but I'd not trust them at all if they weren't protected from contamination. I need to get a new road bicycle pretty soon and had been thinking about belt... but that'd be for pavement only. Watching you ride dirt touring (something I've been doing a lot of on motorcycles lately) certainly looks like fun tho.
Hey, I found that pushing the bike backwards in the peanut butter mud works better. The mud sticks less under he frame and it’s possible to walk. I got through a patch with less effort and without having to carry the fully loaded bike.
Ok, interesting. I did a six month long bikepacking trip in 2024. Cycling from Kyrgyzstan back to Europe. I didn't have the budget for gearbox/belt drive. My bike costs €1500 with a simple 1x 12 speed drive train. I did took a spare chain with me. However I finished the 13,000 Km trip with the original chain. Chain lube is simple Squirt wax lube, nothing fancy.
@michalwiktorow2188 Yeah, I had minimum maintenance for the chain during the trip. Only used a micro fiber cloth to clean then re-lube every 200-250 km. I was actually surprised the chain lasted the entire trip. I use an XTR 12 speed chain. Another bike I use for daily commute at home with cheap €16 KMC 9 speed chain, will only do ~6500 - 7000 Km with Squirt. Some chains do last longer than others.
Hi Heather. I'm in NZ, toured locally, in the Balkans and central Europe and about to head to Japan. I've had a Thorn Raven tourer with Rohloff chain drive for ten years. The only issue I've had with the hub gearbox is avoiding water submersion when crossing a stream/river and sometimes it's damned heavy work carrying the panniers then bike through a deepish 800mm deep swift NZ river. I met a guy locally and he was very enthusiastic about his plan to buy a pinion gearbox. Chain for me.
Already back in 2021, Thorn introduced a new model of its Nomad frame that has a splitter for a belt. Moreover, Thorn just posted on its blog a discussion of belt drives as an option strongly worth considering.
I appreciate that while the video caption is an all in statement(gotta get those clicks lol) in the video you more or less explained that they're not a good fit for the type of riding you do.
@connordean9889because as you pick up stones in the mud and these stones are driven between the belt and the sprocket you places the belt under considerable tension. Grit and mud inevitably get into the gearbox and it’s maybe 1000 kg + of tension to break a new belt. You’d have to be rather mechanically unsympathetic not to notice but I guess it’s possible in deep mud with very low gearing?
Belts are best suited to city bikes but can still be great for MTB if you put bike in the back of your car to drive to where the trails are. You don’t want oily derailleur dirtying your upholstery. The advantage of being clean and oil free is kind of lost when the bike’s getting caked in thick mud. Also the gearing in the crank rather than hub gives the rider more mechanical advantage to put excessive strain on the belt.
I won't have a gearbox anytime soon, but I've had similar thoughts about belts. They're cool, but chains are just so simple to maintain and you can't swing a dead cat anywhere in the world without hitting a fresh one. Having the flexibility to use a bulletproof 8sp chain is a plus, too. With the popularity of 1x derailleur drivetrains these days, it's important to note that some of advantages you get with that sort of chain drop off when you consider the problem of sourcing a 12sp chain.
I am not so sure of the "bulletproof" 8-speed chains, except maybe the KMC-e1 narrow single speed chain; however, when in need you can fit anything between a wide singlespeed chain to a 11-speed chain, since 8-11 speed chains have the same internal width. I had on my rohloff bikes already wide single speed chains, narrow single speed chains, 9-speed, 11-speed XX1 chains and they all worked. The wear was not indicated by the width.
I've had so many people telling me that belts are the best thing ever, when I told them I went back to a chain. I used a belt on my single speed winter mountain bike. I wore down the belt in 1 winter of riding in the mud constantly. Went back to a chain way cheaper, less maintenance and even more durable in the mud. There are of scenarios where a belt is the best thing ever. But high torque and very bad conditions are not one of them.
ironically, chains rust, stretch, break links, constantly need to be lubed up, and derailer gears can bend making them even worse in mud and snow than a steel lined belt ever would be
@srobeck77 Chain has one major plus-side: it very rarely breaks without warning. The problem with belts (bicycle or automotive) is that it seems to work perfectly until it doesn't and it snaps. And since environment affects the lifetime of the belt so much, you can never know for sure if the remaining lifetime is 5 minutes or 5 years.
@srobeck77 ooh boy you have been on the belt-aid for a while. All the above is only true is you ride a 5 dollar chain. If been abusing my single speed drive train all winter including weeks of snow and months of mud with minimum maintenance zero rust and zero problems. I'm not saying belts are bad they are just not the holy grail and chains aren't bad either.
@MikkoRantalainen chain definitely break and they pop off of alot if you bunny hop off a curb with a derailer. Bike belts will never, do that. Plus they do have steal in them, so theres no such thing as any kind of snapping without about 10 years maybe longer
I love my two gates belts. One did 25.000km on an ebike and is still going strong. It went off once on a steep hill in the woods. Basically the bike is either riding off-road or riding with a complete system weight of anywhere between 150kg and 400kg (that is me, the bike and the big trailer I use like others use trucks). The other belt is powering a pretty basic steal touring bike which I love to take off-road as well. That’s the bike I use for overnighters and trips. It’s at 10.000km without any issues. So far I never carried a spare belt. And in the near future I will not. I’m in Central Europe and even if I wanted to, I can’t get more than a days walk away from a train station. So if the belt ever snaps on me, it sucks, but I don’t have a major problem. Probably even if I had a spare with me when my belt snaps, the clever thing would be to walk my bike home (or to a bike shop), clean the bike, use the best tools and bike stands instead of fiddling around in the wood and dirt with the „expedition“ tools. And so far I thought I will take a gates belt powered bike if I ever find the time and money for a one year trip (if politics allow likely also to Utah). None of your arguments against an installed belt convinced me to go back to a chain. But what makes me think is the point you made about carrying a spare belt. You likely damaged your spare belt just by carrying it around. While a spare steal chain is just in your frambag and you have nothing to care about (except for rusting). So the carrying and potential damaging by carrying is a real concern. I am thinking: would it be possible to fit it into a stable round box and either tape that to the bottom of the handlebar- or rearrack-drybag or fit that box as a double floor into the bear vault container? Good luck with the chain! I hope it takes you all the distance
@egalegal2058 Great comment! I've rode biked for 20 years and e-biked for 4. Do you think we will see belt drive in the Tour de France or mtb pro racing? I am attracted to belt drive low maintenance & quiet operation tho I can't afford belt right now. Thanks.
@KenneyK12no I don’t think we will see belts in a racing context. A new installed, well cleaned and lubed chain with a derailleur is more efficient than a belt with a gearbox. If I could afford to have a mechanic come over every night to service my bike, I would be back on a derailleur and chain setup for those five percent efficiency 😅 Maybe we see gearboxes in selfsupported long distance races like tour divide
I have some experience with a Gates belt drive through my Zero FXS motorcycle. a belt is nice in the city but there are too many reports of off-road riders breaking their belts when debris (like bits of gravel or twigs) gets caught in the belt. Zero does offer a chain kit which many riders opt for when they want reliability. so, yeah, your argument makes perfect sense.
Was going to comment this. Sometimes cyclists just guess at how something will work instead of simply looking at similar use cases or even other genres of cycling. I don't ride dirt bikes but if basically every dirt bike ever has a gearbox, has more torque than a human, runs in mud and water and dust and gravel and sand and runs a chain maybe a bike with a gearbox that runs in water and mud and sand should do the same. Logical.
Running chains on long trips in remote locations makes sense. Carry some drip wax to lube the chain (like UFO drip wax) every 200-500 km and you’ve got a chain that’ll last 10,000km
I even have chains that lasted 15k km, just properly waxed every time at regular intervals. Had to replace it because I wasn't sure it was still usable since the chain wear indicator kept reporting it was still pretty good.
@ryoukokonpaku1575 yeah even if it’s not wearing out, an old chain can break if it’s subjected to high stress repeatedly. You could look closely for signs of small fissures at the pins in the side plates
And here I thought the belt drive was the best choice for a touring bike. I still would want the Pinion box but I'm now sold on the old trusty, rusty chain. Thanks and happy travels!
I'm a very happy owner of a secondhand pinion with belt bike. Also biketouring and boy do I love that bike. Such a pleasure to ride. Im not riding offroad neither remote. Which I guess many of us are.
@jaro6985 there is no "best". both have advantages and disadvantages. and the point that the belts are rather sensitive to certain stresses *without showing any visual hints* that their strength is compromised is certainly not a great feature.
@jaro6985 Not really, as the video has stated, it's very dependent. You cannot easily source a belt if you're touring outside of western countries, a single speed chain on the other hand is everywhere and you can easily patch a broken link on the field without fully using your spare chain. Especially when you consider the issue of silica dust that does actually eat away at the belts faster. We've had many similar experiences with dirt bikes riding in sandy terrain and have their belts snap due to abrasive eating away at the belt teeth if it isn't fully closed off from external debris.
Well put! I can only second all of this as an ex-owner of a Schindelhauer ThinBike with a Gates belt which I sold after a year; rear cog was a PITA to remove and the two gear hub was rubbish since it switched gears at random when riding over bumps at high speed.
I haven't ridden a bicycle for at least 15 years, I have no intention of riding my bike, it's rusting in the garden. However I still found this interesting, you kept the mechanics interest in me peaked. Cool information thanks for sharing.
Thanks for putting this out man, definitely semented my view to switch to a chain. The belt storage always has felt really annoying to me as I never know if I'm accidentally messing the belt up or not. I personally have never had mine break on me yet, knock on wood. But the reality of just going into another bike shop and grabbing another chain is just way more appealing to me as well as being able to store it anywhere on my bike.
Real world answers. I knew something was wrong with no maintenance. Ya right. Mud packing in pulleys as opposed to sprockets pushing through chain links says a lot. Good video. Nice trips and video footage
Sounds like you need a fully enclosed drive train. Dust and Water sealed. That way the belt would have not touched any dust or dirt. One thing i love about chains are the quick links. You can literally carry a dozen quick links and you should be able to repair most of your chains on the road super quick. except for when you lose a massive chunk of chain where you need to get extra length. But that's where you use a full replacement chain.
I think the best in-between is a Pinion or Rohloff gearbox with a chain. You still get all the simplicity of no cassette and derailleurs and the durability and ease of maintenance of a chain. That said, one of my biggest annoyances of touring in wet and dirt is the constantly squeaking chain and constant cleaning.
A chain lets you know up front when there is anything wrong with it, a belt can silently deteriorate until it is too late. Depends on how you drive and which poison you prefer.
This brings up electronic shifting as well if your using wireless shifting as Lachlan Morton found out in the Continental Divide. I do very laid back bike touring packing that doesn't come close to your riding but I really go out of my way with having to deal with any issues on these rides that are going to leave me stranded.
I agree... my mantra is "simple and common"; simpler parts have less things to break and common parts allow you to find replacements at any old bike shop
The idea of maintaining the belt in it's original packaging is a good one, you'd hope that solves the second problem. I think on your commuter bike these would rule but I'm in agreeance with you on the chain for away games. I've snapped a hanger and sent the derailleur into the wheel, needless to say I had to single speed it the 160 kms home. Hey cheers for the video, I think this was excellent.
I also use a Pinion gearbox with the Gates belt drive, and have also come to the conclusion that the chain is a better way to go - mainly because of the awful noise that comes from the belt most of the time unless it's spotlessly clean. I'll be swapping out my belt for a chain later this year.
Well thought out and well presented information. Thank you. After watching the video, if I was riding similar to where you ride I would also use a chain. However I would still switch to a belt at present as I ride pretty much locally so a belt drive makes sense for me.
Thank you for sharing your in-depth insights into the problems you've found with belt drives. I have heard about them snapping in really cold conditions, but this is the first I've heard about them being compromised by dust and sticky mud.
Have you noticed any differences in efficiency? Gates belts are said to be slightly less efficient than chains, at least as long as a chain is well maintained.
I remember a video of a rider on a Tout Terrain gravel bike who also rode a Pinion and switched from a belt to a chain, finding his bike noticeably more efficient and "livelier" with the chain.
I had been riding a Pinion gearbox with a belt. In my experience you lose about 10 percent of the power you put on the pedal simply by using a belt. The pinion gearbox eats another 10 percent. People shouldn't believe in marketing phrases.
Honestly, I didn't notice any difference going from belt to chain. And I don't find the Pinion gearbox noticeably less efficient than a derailleur either. But I'm riding mostly rough terrain, fully loaded, and in those conditions, losing a few watts really isn't going to matter. I'm not a racer, though.
This sounds like a very specific problem for an extreme situation. Also where on earth do you buy your belts? You can get non-gates belts for 20€ or less and even the gates are
I ride mostly on paved surfaces but my belt makes all kinds of noises randomly. Soon after cleaning thoroughly it squeaks and grunts and groan again. Any body knows why and how to rectify this?
Expedition touring requires a bike thats maintainable in the field. I use a Surly LHT, with mech cable operated gearing, triple chainset, rim brakes and normal tyres with i/tubes. There is not anything on that bike that cant be repaired anywhere on the planet.
Replacement rim-brake pads for adult bikes (the kind that slide into a shoe) are already going special-order-only in many countries. Even Chinese BSOs at the hypermarket come with disc brakes now. The world has moved on.
Great video discussing the pros and cons. Love seeing stuff like this that has been truly tested by people who actually use the things they are talking about.
I remember when belt drives were introduced on motorcycles, way back in the 1980's. Harley Davidson was the first maker to use them, and the claims were the same, 3 times the life, and zero maintenance. Their belts were also made by Gates (the top engine belt manufacturer in the world at the time). Harley continues to use belts to this day. In regard to "high performance" motorcycles, they generally use chains, and belts are too wide, and would require some sacrifice of tire width. I live in Japan, and belt drives began showing up on shopping bikes in the 1990's, and are still popular for that purpose. In my own case, I've always used a chain, I'm old school in that I believe "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I have a BMW f800S with a beefy belt, 70,000km and looks mostly new. The motorbike is 90hp. Buel was using belts too, 100hp+. Harleys have tons of torque and belts hold fine
15:26 I’m not understanding something - if you have a broken/spare belt couldn’t you pretty easily DIY the strap wrench? Seems like you could just screw the belt to a length of wood?
Can't say I've ever noticed chain noise, other than after riding thru the same river over and over again in Baja which made it creak and grind like crazy, but usually it’s unnoticeable.. any noise on a bike always seems to be from tires.. but the rest of your points are valid
@michaelbigelow3255 same... i am on motorcycles 20 years, traveled many place. Whats the point of slow, hard work. Life is too short to waste it on pedaling haha
Bring a piece of solid soap (yes you can actually wash yourself with it on a bike trip) and rub the belt with it . Works great. Turn the cranks relative to the chainring every now and then . Most force is applied at a certain point of the cranks and the chainring ring will apply that force always on the same point of the belt. Just a thought.
I don't like the grinding vibration in the pinion drive ... I wad constantly worried about the gearbox locking up and leaving me stranded ( because idk how to fix the gear box)
@AA_Not_a_MOTO_Mechanic Actually you're wrong here, a belt actually has been tested to be just around 95-90% efficient than a clean roller chain drive that can be up to 98% efficient if lubricated and has a straight chainline, this has been tested multiple times in labs. The only place where a chain actually has moving parts is at the places where it bends, otherwise it's not moving at all, adding oil essentially makes the transition smoother vs a carbon belt eating through bare teeth of a sprocket, belts also have way more surface area per teeth than a chain drive which is why it has a bit more friction. There's a reason why belts aren't used for pro track cycling where efficiency matters all since all bikes are single speed.
@AA_Not_a_MOTO_Mechanic A chain is very efficient if maintained and lubricated. There’s greater friction between the wider teeth in the belt and the gear wheels in a belt drive.
@ryoukokonpaku1575 Yes and all that testing States it has to be CLEAN and WELL LUBRICATED....Everyone always forgets that a chain in the wild is a dust and dirt collecting magnet that is far less efficient when dirty , same with a gear box vs regular drive train...yes a DT is 95% efficient but ONLY in a Straight line a Gear box is 90% in all gears all the time ..Chains have rollers pins and plates the rollers spin around bushing the plates rotate slightly , they all collect dirt and that dirt IS FRICTION...you can stay in a LAB and ride your bike or you can go out and ride...if you do your chain is less efficient and requires lots of lube and cleaning to be efficient....!
@LászlóLovass Yes and all that testing States it has to be CLEAN and WELL LUBRICATED....Every always forgets that a chain in the wild is a dust and dirt collecting magnet that is far less efficient when dirty , same with a gear box vs regular drive train...yes a DT is 95% efficient but ONLY in a Straight line a Gear box is 90% in all gears all the time ..Chains have rollers pins and plates the rollers spin around bushing the plates rotate slightly , they all collect dirt and that dirt IS FRICTION...you can stay in a LAB and ride your bike or you can go out and ride...if you do your chain is less efficient and requires lots of lube and cleaning to be efficient....!
Tough call for sure. I have a belt Pinion, and I will probably keep the belt as I will only be riding in the US most likely. I may give the chain a go after my sprockets wear out.
I have an enclosed chain on my commuter bike and that has never needed any real care aside from tensioning it once or twice a year. I wonder if an enclosed belt drive would be even less maintanence.
I am interested in belts as a future drivetrain for a bikepacking bike too, but so far have not made the leap. One thing I have heard of is the VEER split belt. Was this not an additional option to use instead for an emergency? I have no experience, so this could possibly be a non-starter.
You very persuasively sold me on the belt drive a while back, then even more persuasively unsold it for me last year. Thanks for this video and all your videos, your adventures are inspiring. Keep it up--or not--but we're routing for you either way.
I’ve got a pinion system with a Gates belt. No issues yet but I’m carrying an extra belt on a series of long tours, knowing it’s not easily repaired or sourced. Appreciate the information in this video.
I did belt for around three years and are back on “the chain”. Belts are expensive, end the supposed longer life do not make up for that in the long run. I do also enjoy a normal everyday bicycle that is not too expensive and fancy.
Not correct. A belt is twice the price of a chain, but it lasts three times as long. And you don't have to replace the gears like you do with a chain, because they don't get worn, and gears are the expensive parts here, not the chain or the belt.
@FluffyTrinford I dont know the prices where you life, but my experiences where very clear, it didn’t save me money when using the belt. The sprockets didn’t last longer than my belt, and they were quite expensive.
for me, i dont enjoy the weekly cleaning and greasing of a chain. I wouldn't ever go back to that sadist life. I even sold my black leather gimp mask that matched the bike chain
If you use a VEER Split belt it can be stored with out worry or twisting..since it has an open end it can be rolled tight and small..better than standard Gates, and they FIT ANY bike with a hub drive or a Pinion!
Very particular attention taken rolling up and onrolling a Gates. Storing a spare needs to be kept rolled, without any kinking. A semi-hard case would be the solution, agreed.
You'd need it to be totally sealed. Dust will get in the tiniest crack. Also you're adding weight and complexity of repair where you potentially don't need to. So you could, but I would imagine it wouldn't be a preferred choice for most expedition riders.
Even if you ran a totally enclosed carbon fiber belt casing (light weight), you'd still have to use seals on the axle to connect the fixed motion case to the rotating motion wheel somehow. Seals would get ground up in the silica dust.
Regarding mechanical disk brakes, our tandem has Avid BB7 brakes (we use them for touring). They are very good; I would say they generally offer a better ride experience, without the risk, while touring. If you are going down hills and use them a lot, they will need adjusting, which fluid brakes don't. However, the adjustment is very easy and changing pads is a breeze.
Especially with a tandem, you might want to upgrade to the Paul Klamper, which in spite of its single-piston design has curiously more stopping power in my experience that the Avid BB7 (or the TRP mechanical brakes that are the typical other option).
I am the owner of a small german bikeshop. As we had a lot of snow the last weeks we also had a huge amount of broken belts on cargobikes. It seemes that the snow came between belt and rear sprocket and has exerted such great pressure that the snap ring of the rear sprocket (enviolo) jumped off and was no longer aligned, therefore the belt broke.
Yet more valuable information on this thread! A lot to think about!
Do these bikes have a belt tensioner and no mudguard around the belt? Gates offers the GBT3 belt tensioner and Pinion offers its own, but I see a lot of street bikes without a belt tensioner, but with a static tension system (mostly by adjusting the rear wheel through a screw).
I think its not the belts fault if a bikemanufacturer implements a belt without a dynamic belt tensioner and does not enough to protect the belt against snow or mud. Never heared of such problems in case of fullies, because they all have a dynamic belt tensioner installed.
Thanks
"Huge" is not a number.
How many belts of how many belted bikes? 😅
Yep, these conditions are not the specified standard as it seems 😅 For commuters using theirbike may be mandatory to get to their office.
Wonder if chains do a much better job in harsh snowy conditions... Never tried
The belt is a low maintenance item, for your daily commuter bike or weekend MTB fun. But anything I put on touring must be repairable with common tools.
Once went on a 12 day trip through France and accidentally forgot to pack my seat?!? = don’t ask how. I did some last minute packing and repacking and some how in the confusion left the seat at home. When I arrived in France and was dropped off by a bus just outside the town of Beaune (just a bus station with a bathroom and picnic tables), I assembled my bike and realized the mistake. Had to ride about 10 miles to town without my seat. Borrowed a trash seat to keep my schedule which ended up destroying my ASS then replaced with a comfy seat in Lyon. Lesson learned.
Simple is always better when things go wrong (and they eventually will).
The carbon gates belt is nice but adds some complexity if things go wrong (if they do, it may be unrecoverable)
Just bring a spare belt, like you bring a spare inner tube.
@FluffyTrinford Watch the video maybe?
And universal between bikes. I don't want a bicycle with a flaw in the rear chain stay.
Reinforced or "secured" in some sort of way. Any way you swing it, it's still a flaw in what is supposed to be a solid frame. When they make one that I don't have to have a special bike for it to go on. When it fits where a normal bottom bracket would be. When the belt can be replaced without opening the flaw in your frame.
That's when I'll show some interest in it.
Until all of that, all I see is another fad.
A breakdown far from civilization will always shake you to the core. A lot of us don't think much about the non-repairable things until they scare the bejeezus out of us. BB's can fail. Frames can crack. Hubs can fail for bearings or flanges. Freehubs can die. Rims can break. Tires, tubes, and tubeless systems can all ruin your day/trip. One can get extra paranoid and ride a heavier bike that is better built for loads, but we are all subject to occasional problem that shakes our self-sufficiency belief.
Two things that commuter bikes have (at least in the Netherlands) is encased chains and fenders. It is so nice to arrive at work without oil on your leg and a wet bottom.
The plastic covers for the chain can at least be fairly easily fitted to most commuter bikes since these components have become pretty standardized. Some people really dislike how they look though, so I think it's just become more common to make the bike visually appeal to all riders, and then just have the cover as a cheap aftermarket option.
@SethAbercromby #friction is a real thing that will ensue from such plastic chain-cases. I tried one for a year or so, then removed it for a chain-change, and have not refitted as it was *SO* much freer-spinning without it
@petesig93 Not to discount your own experience, but the aftermarket ones I've seen shouldn't be making much contact with the pedal shaft after you've secured them, but maybe a pinch of lubrication might be worth keeping in mind if I ever get bothered enough to install one.
Looking at it from an engineering perspective, the Pinion does the torque multiplication at the front of the bike, vs an internally geared rear hub doing the torque multiplication at the back of the bike. Doing the torque multiplication at the front means the belt is going to get a LOT more tension on a Pinion bike.
Interesting, I'll have to do some more research into that but you might be onto something!
Very good point 🎉
@RustyKnorr Watts is power. Power is torque times angular velocity.
Using a derailleur bike as an example, standing on the pedals in a 24T granny on a triple is going to put a LOT more tension on the chain than standing on the pedals on a 54T big ring. 2.25 times as much. Depending on the pinion gearbox, there can be a 6X range and that low gear can put a lot more tension on the belt than the front ring used with an internal rear hub.
@RustyKnorr You keep talking about power. The issue is not power. The issue is torque. Maybe it would be helpful to you to watch a video about power vs torque in car engines. The Pinion is kind of like when Audi was putting a diesel in a Le Mans car and nobody had a gearbox that could handle the torque. It made about the same power as the gasoline engine cars, but rev'ed lower and made a lot more torque.
The Pinion in the low gear is like the granny on a triple chainring bike. The Rohloff setup is essentially the middle ring of a triple chainring bike. All the torque multiplication happens at the back of the bike. The middle ring is never going to put as much tension on a chain as a granny. The Rohloff needs some special stuff done on the back of the bike which a Pinion bike doesn't need, because the Rohloff is dealing with the torque issues at the back.
@RustyKnorrfor an alleged pro mechanic, its amazing how little you know about actual mechanics, as in physics, and very basics of physics indeed. I guess you don't need to finish primary school to be a good mechanic?
"The amount of force applied to the wheel is the same" - you seem to be mistaking 3 core ideas of physics: force, power, and torque. those are 3 different terms, please read about them. 1st is measured in Newtons, 2nd in Watts, 3rd in Newton meters. it will be relevant below.
"Gear inches are still gear inches, and a human being is only able to put the same number of watts into any given gear inch." it is precisely the opposite.
that's what gearboxes are for. trade speed for moment.
lets take couple of examples:
1. you start a car in 1st gear, wheels might spin/slide. might happen in 2nd gear, probably wont happen in 6th. why? torque on wheels is few times bigger in the 1st gear than 6th, using same engine with same power
2. those gear inches, lets assume we have 20 gear inches in the lowest gear, and 100 in the top one. so a rider, using same power makes 1 full spin on pedals. in the lowest gear - makes 20 inches, in the top one - 100 - so per every inch of travel, there is 5 times less power.
also you might have noticed as a mechanics, that most mechanical equipment mentions torque capacity (in Nm's) and not power. or force. for example screws: with 5 cm / 2 inch long allen key, you might have issues screwing one in, and with 3m / 10 ft one a small toddler would screw it into the abyss.
oh maybe you heard about Archimedes' quote "give me a place to stand on, and i'll move the Earth? did he mean he would become all mighty and powerful? nope, he meant leverage. gearbox is leverage :P
having Pinion gearbox is effectively like having 6/9/12/18 chainrings in the front. so obviously, depending on gear, you have different torque going to the sprocket. using P18 as an example, that would be chainrings ranging from 10t to 64t.
I really do hope you take a challenge of understanding those concepts, otherwise, looking at your cockiness, I'm afraid you might be stuck on Dunning-Kruger's Peak of Mount Stupid.
One less bit of expensive gear to be jealous of 😆 next video: "why I actually miss bent derailleurs"
He's not using a derailleur, you can see it clearly in the video, he's using a pinion gearbox
@JimtheRangerTimmyit's a joke
Haha I think even if my Pinion gearbox did brake down in the next year, I'd still see it as worthwhile. Four years of heavy use without a single issue, so even if I did have a break, I wouldn't be going back to a derailleur for expedition riding any time soon!
@tristanridWow impressive! My experience with the Pinion MGU have not been so good.
@FIGHTTHECABLE what's your experience though?
In 65 years cycling not one broken chain, three years with belt drive bicycle two broken belts, soon realised that a good front mudguard to keep dust off belt was needed, since then no problems.
I ride my components until they rattle and squeak, and i never had a broken chain either. Shimano standard 3*9 for life.
I even buy neglected cheap quality bikes and put the used drivetrain on my bike.
The problem is pushing new underdeveloped ideas into the market. The cashcow has to be milked somehow
Damn that had to be such a horrible feeling when the second belt snapped and the realization set in. This is my first exposure to your channel. Excellent work and you truly are living my dream out there.
Get 2 unopened new belts if you’re going for some remote expedition. The old spare should be left at home for less challenging trips.
@madsam0320 how do Gates belts come packaged when new? A quick search by me just shows them as bare belts; no packaging. There is nothing to open, and safe storage when on a long or remote-area tour is *always* going to be an issue.
@petesig93 you can always put it back in the packaging it came with, or put it in a bag or box. As long as they are kept in clean condition, they will last for a long time.
I’ve got a priority 600 and carried 2 backup belts. I wrapped them in bubble wrap and worried about crimp. I didn’t have to use them, but I definitely need to check them.
They’re light enough that two isn’t really a big deal compared to 40lbs of gear, water, and food. Or three if it’s life or death. Shim the crimp with plastic to keep it from flexing. I’m neurotic as hell though, and have had about everything that can break on a bike break, fortunately never in critical situation.
If you tandem, that means FOUR spare belts. Getting kinda ludicrous.
@dudeonbike800I wish, nobody I know what to do my rides
@dudeonbike800 even worse, is a paranoid to need to carry 4 greased up metal chained belts. Image being so paranoid one will "go out" let alone 4 will go out at the same thing, really dumb
@dudeonbike800 if its 80 grams its only a tiny bit more than a chain in total
I’ve done numerous bike packing trips and loved it; so I decided i wanted a bike with a Pinion gearbox. I went to a bike shop in Spain, where I live, that specialises in bike packing. I told the shop owner/ bike builder that I wanted a bike built with a pinion. The first thing he asked was what type of terrain do I ride, once I told him 60% off road he recommended a chain for the reasons that you mention in your video. I’d also seen another RUclipsr , Mat Ryder break the Gatesdrive out in New Zealand and also I saw your video about the breakages in Colorado, I also think Ryan Van Duzer broke his. I’ve no doubt that the belt drives are superb but for the very reasons you changed I decided I wanted to have a chain fitted to my Pinion. Love watching your channel
Interesting to hear your experience and decision, thanks for sharing!
And you can get chains anywhere, or change the length on the spot. Chains are a great tech, I just don't like how derailleurs treat them sometimes, especially those thin thin ones for 8+ speeds.
I think Ryan Van Duzer's break was due to the belt coming off and him then slipping it on at the top of the chainset and pushing down on the pedal stroke. He did a video with Pinion and or the makers of his bike about it. They told him off!
... we can also state that 'in principle carbon belts are great' - now what I mean by that - well, say you manufacture them, how many QA personel you have, how much scrutiny is put on the carbon inner cords? In 2017 it could be that 1/3 of production went to end customer, now it may be 1/2 - it does not mean the belts are made better, it just means the tollerances were lowered? Possible?
Has the Pinion be repair-free? I dont trust a brand until it has years of testing. Ebikes are too expensive to accept repair-prone systems
As someone who has worked for company that sold frames with belt drive compatibility, I was always a bit concerned about those who chose to use a belt for long distance touring or bikepacking. Just a little twist. Talk about Achille’s heel.
The problem is the combination with the pinon gearbox. Because you do the torque multiplication at the front you have way more force pulling at the belt. There are reports also on RUclips with Rohloff gearhub combination and no problems.
Thank you for this video. A couple of years ago I built up an Ogre around a Rohloff hub that uses a chain. I really like it, but there's always this nagging idea in the back of my head that maybe I should get a bike with a belt, even though it solves a problem I don't really have. Now maybe I can put that idea to rest.
Well, the fact that he had a mid drive gearbox probably made a big difference. The belt would experience a LOT higher max tension with that set up, unlike with a hub gear.
@dandcc9192 that's a good point.
@dandcc9192 Why it would? Maybe I am missing something... it doesn't really matter where the "gearing" is, does it? Front or back. It's still going to exert the same power through the belt. Or am I missing something obvious?
@nomindseye You are missing something, but maybe not something very obvious.
Try doing torque calculation.
Or a more intuitive way of explaining this would be, let's assume we are going up the same incline on a bike with mid gear shift and then on a bike with hub gears.
From the rider's perspective, let's assume about the same cadence as when you are on flat ground.
Mid gear shift, as the torque on the wheel increases, the tension on the belt increases proportionally, correct? It doesn't matter if you shift into lower gear in the front. The wheel experiences higher torque and turns more slowly as you go uphill, and the belt experiences higher tension and travels more slowly.
Hub gear shift, as the the torque on the wheel increases when you are going uphill, you will shift into lower gear. That will mean that the wheel's sprocket will turn more revolution per a revolution the wheel does. The wheel will experience higher torque, and turn more slowly, the same as with a mid-shift bike, but the belt will experience about the same tension as on flat ground, but travel a lot faster.
Force*distance = energy
When you go uphill, the energy expenditure is higher. The mid shift bike, from the belt's perspective, compensates for this by increasing F, meaning increased tension. Hub shift bike, from the belt's perspective, compensates for this by increasing d, meaning F stays the same.
Another way to look at is that, because in a midshift bike, the rider is upstream from the gearbox but the belt is downstream from the gearbox, the rider gets the benefits of the mechanical advantage the gearbox provides, but the belt does not get this benefit. With the hub shift, because both the rider and the belt are upstream from the gearbox, both the rider and the belt get the mechanical advantage the gearbox provides.
I disagree about commuter bikes in Berlin. They will get stolen long before a chain or belt would wear out.
lmao, so real, expensive gates belt is just begging for your bike to be gone
Mate, brings back my painful memories when I was working in a tile factory maintaining the production line equipment running in belts. Thank you for sharing. Power on!
I thought you added a bell sound when passing the dog and thought it was pretty cool. I watched it again and it was the notification bell and you just happened to be passing the dog. Funny.
Been using a pinion bicycle for two years. No issues. Done Perth to Melbourne going through sandy desert. But I do admit would have been in trouble if something broke.
this is a well-done presentation.
Steve
Is he too extreme, you do dust only ?
Try a casing dude ?
An interesting thing about this, these belts are essentially the same as automotive timing belts, Gates is even one of the top manufacturers of them. One thing that almost all timing belts have in common though is that they are always covered. When installed on an engine there is a front and rear timing cover sealed to keep even the relatively fine dust particles found in an engine bay from contaminating and damaging the belt. It seems that the admittedly more complicated solution would be a belt cover/ guard that is also sealed to keep the dirt, mud and grit out under the less than ideal conditions your belts were put through. Still more complicated than a chain and doesn't solve the other issues you found, but a step the right way perhaps
Automotive timing belts have to be replaced at albeit at large intervals
I don't buy vehicles with timing belts because of higher service intervals and lower reliability compared to a chain. Manufacturers have moved away from using timing belts in recent years due to said issues.
@Raven74947 until your manufacturer makes such a horrible chain, that missed timing on camshaft 😁
Timing belts are silent, light, cheap, easy to change. But the problem is people dont change it in intervals..
@wexelo how is changing a timing belt easy? Or significantly different from changing a chain?
I bought a belt drive bike about three years ago for the usual reasons: low maintenance and durability (supposedly), but I’m also switching back to a chain. My newest bike has a traditional chain, and while cleaning and lubing it is a minor inconvenience, it’s not that time consuming. What turned me off the belt drive is that I live in a VERY dusty climate, and you weren’t exaggerating when you described the annoying grinding sound of dust on the belt. I use silicone spray on it, but that only lasts so long, and the silicone spray itself makes the belt dirty, which negates the whole “the belt is so clean” myth. I still have the belt drive bike and use it for grocery shopping, but it’s going to eventually be replaced with a more traditional chain drive bike.
All depends on the conditions. I cycle every single day through western europe winter forests, and gates cdx is the absolute champion. No chain would sustain such wet and grit conditions, and I certainly do not miss fingers hurting from freezing cold for everyday chain cleaning...
Chains still gum up with dust and dirt. Lube can easily be washed off. Plus chains and derailleurs sound like a combine harvester. In my experience belts are far superior.
Having been a bicycle mechanic before I switched to a different line of work most recently, I've seen these belts fail for reasons most people wouldn't think were real. Here are some examples other than wear and tear:
Poor belt alignment to the point that the belt's teeth have been split in half. Don't ask me how that made it past quality control at the respective OEM.
One belt needed to be replaced after merely 300km of use. A pebble with a diameter of no more than 3mm got wedged between the belt and the sprocket, effectively pushing the pebble through the carbon fibre and thus eliminating like half of the belt's tensile strength. Can't let that stay on a pedelec. Gates denied warranty, for understandable reasons - customer mad, we mad. We ended up charging less for the new belt and the labour was for free, about close to half off overall, because we did, in fact, like our customers. Needless to say, nobody likes to lose money like that.
Then you have the droves of people falling for 'maintenance-free'. Belts are anything but. Belts and and sprockets are subject to wear and tear, just like bicycle chains. If your bike doesn't have a spring loaded tensioning thingamabob installed, you will need to adjust the tension every once in a while, manually. Neglect leads to failure. Simple as that.
If you don't know what you are doing while tensioning a belt, you may run into trouble sooner than you would like. A bike's drive train isn't perfectly 'centered' or 'symmetrical', one moment the tension feels just right, but turn the cranks another 90° or 180° and you might get a vastly different result. It is shocking to me that even to this day what feels like half of the mechanics aren't even aware of this. How would the layman possibly know? These belts have a specific max and min pre-tension, exceed the max and hit the cranks hard going uphill for a while, and your 12.000 mile expectation becomes but a wet dream.
I could go on for quite a while here. In fact, if I also started talking about the desolate state of available replacement parts, which may leave customers waiting for weeks at a time, while our former shop would take like 99% of the blame btw, I'd die of old age right here.
Just look at a chain on a single speed oscillating up and down as you turn the cranks. The illusion that drivetrains are perfectly symmetrical is a joke to mechanics. (25 year former pro here)
@RustyKnorrYou'd hope so. From people doing internships to mechanics who were around for 10 years or longer, the number of people who still don't get it, let alone how severe that oscillation can be, despite looking at it every single day, is staggering.
I really hate to say this, because mouthing off about former colleagues, eventhough they probably never get to read this, just doesn't sit right with me... The severity of the lack of interest in their own work is one big compounding factor that led to my decision to change up my line of work. I started out at the age of 18, now I'm 43 and I just can't do it anymore. Not when people stop caring, not for the slave wages some shops would pay. I get it, barebones pay leads to barebones performance eventually, but doing it right ought to be the minimum when there's a human life sitting on that bike.
The few belts I've encountered in a 6 year span, old dude claiming he wants a maintenance free bike. And I'm like nah dude, that doesn't exist. And we had a bike in for service that needed new tire and all the bolts were rusted so it took forever to clean everything up so we could detention and get things working, and as a forty something mechanic I'm curious what did you go switch to? Cause I'm looking for other things
@spitt0110I guess it'll be hard for me to give pointers or recommend anything, since what's available depends largely on the respective local job-market. That being said, I got a position as an 'object manager' for a relatively big local company.
So, what I do now has to do mostly with planning shifts, and discussing resource allocation with the head honcho. All with the goal of keeping things in the building in shape and up to date.
Knowing a thing or two about mechanics certainly helped, but what sealed the deal in the end was that I was inside the building, waiting in front of HR while nobody knew I was already there. I let myself in. Security concerns are a hot topic, me being able to spot and exploit a weakness sealed the deal.
I picked up lock picking as a side hustle. Customers losing keys or breaking them off in the keyway comes with the territory, so I educated myself. Offering that as a service made our shop some good money, provided the supposed customer was able to prove that they owned what I was about to open.
If there's any real advice I can give, do something where the risk of getting replaced by an automated machine is as low as possible, otherwise your head is on the chopping block the minute you sign the contract. Considering how poor the pay for mechanics tends to be at times, even working as a janitor wouldn't have been beneath me. I was lucky I got in a bit above that, to be fair.
This is not correct. I have used up two belts in my time, each of them 20,000 km (that is about tree times as far as a high quality chain). There is zero maintenence. I have never adjusted anything. I just put on a new belt and ride for 20,000 km. Besides, you can be unlucky with a chain too. I have had a Campagnolo Record chain fail after about 200 km.
Expedition cyclist on a belt drive here! 👋 I also ride 99%+ off-road, and likely many of the same routes as you. I’ve logged around 180,000 km on belt drivetrains across every continent except Antarctica.
All of my belt drivetrains have lasted between 20,000 and 35,000 km, though that has depended heavily on environmental conditions. South America treated my belts well, while Africa definitely accelerated wear (sand!). I use the spare belts that I carry whenever I wear a belt out, so I've managed to keep them from crimping, even in all the rough terrain I ride.
That said, if I had your experience with belts, I would definitely swap back to chains too! Buuuut..... I’m not convinced you ran into a fundamental flaw with belt drives, simply given the experience of many other expedition cyclists.
A few factors could have contributed to your premature wear or breakage, and it may well have been a combination of them:
- Misalignment is a major one, particularly when it comes to accelerated wear.
- Running the belt with too little tension can also shorten component life.
- Insufficient frame stiffness can allow the belt to ride up or skip under load, potentially damaging the internal cords.
- And as you found, storage matters too - improper packing can compromise a belt before it’s even fitted.
I completely agree on one point, though: sticky mud is brutal with belts, especially when it’s mixed with small rocks. Thankfully, I only encounter that kind of mud about once a year on average, and I usually walk those sections to avoid damaging the drivetrain.
Anyway, thanks for the video! I just wanted to offer an alternative perspective, as I don’t think your experience necessarily reflects what most off-road belt riders encounter.
Watching the video I thought about leaving a comment on your videos asking about how many km you put in a belt drivetrain before wearing it and if you had experience the same issues depicted in this video.
And then I found the answer in the comments, Ja.
One point that you will have to agree is that belt drives are way much harder to find than chains, and that you could get stuck in a remote country for a long time before you get a new one.
Anyway, 20.000 km it's a fair amount of distance between replacements.
That was quick
I watch your channel too and knew you were a belt drive user as well. Thank you for posting your experience and perspective as an alternative.
It seems to me that proper alignment, proper tensioning and proper storage are all things that might be challenges on these types of mega adventures. If it's that sensitive to less then ideal conditions it sounds like a bit of a drawback of the system.
I think a wide chain designed for singlespeed/fixie bikes will last just as long as a belt, and it will still work even when technically worn. Those sprockets for wide chains are also incredibly durable.
Its funny how in the end city bike mechanics are always right, said this when the first gates bikes came out, its great when it works, expensive and hard when it does not work.
ah, but being highly impractical, unreliable, and expensive is part of keeping cycling a middle-class *prestige* activity, instead of reliable and affordable transportation for the mere proletarian masses, and we wouldn't want to deprive the so-called middle class of their exclusive access to a hobby, now would we?
Yep, the biggest strength of a chain is the fact it's a modular design. You can easily source links even if a complete chain isn't available in the middle of nowhere. This even applies to a lot of knowledge in the manufacturing industry. Modular construction oftentimes will outweigh monolith designs as it means it's very easy to mass produce said modular parts and scale them out as needed.
@peaceandquiet1917 As a working class person who cycles for utility and to get to places because I have no car, I always found chains to be being highly impractical, unreliable, and expensive as my mechanical skills are mediocre. My two years of belt drive have been a delight.
@ryoukokonpaku1575I worked on a lot of old bikes and they have pads that allowed you to position your wheel so the chain tension was good, and fully enclosed chainguards. And the chains where thicker and heavier. This setup was was abandoned at some point by the industry but I still feel it's superior to anything we have now in terms of repairability and adjustability.
@Airlane1979 it does depend on which chain you get. unfortunately, there's a lot of nonsense online about chains being "expendable", and thus not worth investing in, but a high-quality chain makes a world of difference! investing in a really nice wipperman chain is worth it, if you ever try chains out again. i have a wipperman SR8 on a bike with surly rear and front cogs that I converted to a singlespeed and i've ridden the same configuration for about a year and a half now through all sorts of conditions, and there's barely any wear.
all that said, i can appreciate that belts have some utility, but i still think that they're unnecessarily expensive and finnicky.
The snapped belt is mostly because of the worn teeth. These will be knives after they wear out. Check that, as a Dutch bike mechanic I've seen this loads of times here. But that is because of the misunderstanding that belt drives are maintenance "free". When some rocks/debris squeeze in the belt you'll have excessive wear and therefore your belt will eventually snap. Hopefully I've helped some people with this!
It is not a misunderstanding. It is taking marketing lies for granted.
still not a good choice for backpacking
@iceI3urn it is if you do your maintenance and make sure your sprockets are in good shape too nothing wrong with the gates drive system It’s people installing it wrong we’re thinking they can just ride and do no maintenance whatsoever.
@iceI3urn they may not require maintenance, but belts require attention to make sure the whole system (cogs, alignment, etc.) is in good shape and well set up
Yeah, thats maintenance right there
You make some solid points. I started bikepacking 30 years ago, long before it was called that. I have come across other cyclists who have had belt failures. All of my bikes have been chain driven. I was recently gifted an older bike with the Rohloff hub. I was quite happy that it had a chain system. Chains may need more cleaning and maintenance regularly, but their ability to be easily patched up makes them the reliable choice for me. Thanks for the vid!
even chains that don’t get maintained by poor owners seem to magically last forever
@mrwow1667 I can see two things partially explaining this :
"low maintenance" users are usually ones that don't ride too much and don't ride too harshly. Sure, they don't maintain the chain much, but they rarely do more than 10km at once and don't push very hard on pedals. Say they ride 14km/day 200 days per year. That is "only" 2800 km per year. As a comparison, an enthusiast road rider can easily do 200km in ONE day.
"chain lifespan" is a bit of an ambiguous term. It isn't exactly the time at which a chain will snap, but the time at which the chain has to be changed because it deformed quite "a lot", and can damage other components, be less efficient, or has a higher chance of snapping under intensive use. But if you don't care about those, a chain can last for a VERY long time, even under very harsh conditions.
@felixbertoni also, they won't ride in the rain.
Some really interesting arguments for both systems. Being in regional (and sometimes dusty and occasionally muddy) Australia, if or when I decide to install internal hub gears, I will stick to chains as I am familiar with their use and maintenance. Thank you for such an informative presentation.
This all makes a TON of sense. When I was on a multi-week self supported bike trip through some remote areas far from civilization, and ended up getting a sidewall blow out, and having to deploy my spare tire (not just tube), I understand the frustration of carrying a deploying a mission critical spare part in the field.
These days, I’m primarily a commuter, and in those conditions, the belt drive is AMAZING! The cleanliness, silence, near zero maintenance, and long life time make it an EXCELLENT fit for urban commuting.
But I don’t think I’m going to switch out the chain on my touring bike!
Old cycle tourist here again, I noticed the belt was gone. I rode half the GDMBR with a buddy that used a Rohloff hub on his ECR, no problems with his nice wide chain; but my 1x12 needed a new chain in Pinedale, WY. Next Q: The Selle Anatomica saddle. I used to live five miles from their shop in San Diego, CA. After riding a Brooks B-17 for 35 years, I tried the Selle on a new bike build. I found the Selle Anatomica saddle has a swale, sort of hammock like position instead of sit-bone position. It also developed a squeak, so after trying the saddle for a month in different positions, I gave it to another cyclist and returned to the B-17. Love your videos, excellent work and information for bike tourists. ☮
The seats I ride on are Brooks B17, also the notched version, and WTB Speed V saddles. I think for conventional saddles chamois (not thick gel) will help for long duration riding with whatever saddle you're on. Seatpost suspension is also great.
My plan is to buy an Infinity Seat and see how well that works with post suspension.
I was also able to snap 2 belts - but on a Qio city bike. The First caused by a small log that my fronttire somehow catched and threw it directly into belt. The second one just on an uphill. My next bike will be chained again.
I had the option to go for either and I chose chain for the same reasons you mentioned. I start my three year journey around the planet in April.
Good choice! I had my expedition bike custom built and I just drew the line to not have every single component be the supposed "high end" and opted for a chain. Couldn't have been happier, I even criminally neglected maintenance but it could take it. Most importantly, I learned what I truly needed and what was just a shiny object :)
Good luck and enjoy your trip.
Awesome, good luck with your ride!
How do you afford such a trip?
@Breakdown0nice. Durability and simplicity is key I believe. Wheels and drivetrain are two of my main focuses. I went with a rohloff hub for minimal maintenance. I have a recumbent with pinion. Like them both.
One tiny sharp rock that gets stuck in between the sprocket and the belt can end your ride pretty quickly. I used to ride motorcycles and it happened to me on a belt drive motorbike in the middle of nowhere.
Even worse as at least it's easier to push a bicycle!
Was it a Buell Ulysses by any chance?...
Completely wrong for a bike. In reality, if that 1 in a million shot with a pebble went up there on a bike with a belt, no damage would be done, you just wouldnt be able to to peddle? You not understand the rpm difference on a motorcycle vs a bike? That seem very odd to not understand that.
I had a belt drive bike for a bit. Luckily I was near home when it snapped. I messaged Gates about it and they actually warranteed it and gave me a new one, saying that going off the pictures it was a factory defect (horizontal snap). I was definitely happy about saving $100 or so there.
$100 or so.... before shipping.... For a belt. And you NEED two of them AT LEAST, to be safe.
I ended up selling that bike because that brittleness was just not worth the worry. they're cool, but simply not reliable if you're being tough on your gear, imo. I feel so much more worry free with a chain.
I know there are some very experienced riders who swear by them, but I just don't agree, based on experience. I don't want to have to baby the gear that keeps me moving. I prefer simpler things that I can more or less forget about.
Thank you for this, I was so torn on getting it. I was wondering what i was missing. This is perfect.
When you say getting it, what exactly are you referring to?
@chrisfreemanca the whole debris and mud getting stuck under the belt. The sounds of it (when dirty), I do everything I can to make sure my bike makes as little noise as possible. Its not really maintenance free if u do some dirty riding. And I already have all the stuff to fix chains. So the price it self doesn't seem really worth the trade offs.
I found that a strap wrench for a car oil filter worked on my rear hub. Your point stands, though that this is more of a faff than if you were to use a chain.
As a mechanic i can confirm that almost any car repair shop will have a strap wrench just like that for oil filters on cars
@niklaspetersen4936or any plumber would have one also.
Great vid, anybody in need of a belt strap can try a car garage. Mechanics use them to undo the tightest of oil filters. Also has anyone ever tried running lower tyre pressures when the mud is that bad. In Cyclocross the tyres are really soft (for grip) and deviate in shape where it touches the ground. When the shape goes back it kinda shrugs a lot of mud off. Took me a while to figure this out 🤷🏼♂️ but it works
@RustyKnorrI'd disagree, it works in Yorkshire mud
@RustyKnorr😂 Yorskire mud is about as sticky as can be
@RustyKnorrno congrats needed, nobody likes riding in it, that's why i don't live there 😂
As a former motorcycle/ATV mechanic, I know a little about roller chains/sprockets. All chain/sprocket setups, as they rotate oscillate between tight and loose. As the system wears, this becomes more pronounced. One must set the chain slack while it is in the "tight" position. If slack is set while it is in the "loose" position, it will be too tight when it comes back around to the tight position. Over tightening a chain is the worst thing you can do to it. A toothed belt drive system probably shares the same characteristics...............
"Peanut butter mud isn't that common". I really wish that were the case.
Ride in the Eastern US, forest roads are full of it... or even worse... Oklahoma... when it's wet there EVERYTHING that's not tarmac is peanut butter.
My Ducati has gates belts... and they're great. BUT... they're sealed under covers. They're rated for 18k miles and every time I've changed them the old belts look like new... but I'd not trust them at all if they weren't protected from contamination.
I need to get a new road bicycle pretty soon and had been thinking about belt... but that'd be for pavement only. Watching you ride dirt touring (something I've been doing a lot of on motorcycles lately) certainly looks like fun tho.
I'd use a sprung chain tensioner too. So that i can repair the chain if I run out of spare links to add.
RELIABILITY AND SIMPLICITY are fondamental when you ride far away nice rides !
Availability is a big one, too
Every time you walk away from a standard piece of gear, there's usually a hidden cost
I'll add economy as well.
Hey, I found that pushing the bike backwards in the peanut butter mud works better. The mud sticks less under he frame and it’s possible to walk. I got through a patch with less effort and without having to carry the fully loaded bike.
Ok, interesting. I did a six month long bikepacking trip in 2024. Cycling from Kyrgyzstan back to Europe. I didn't have the budget for gearbox/belt drive. My bike costs €1500 with a simple 1x 12 speed drive train. I did took a spare chain with me. However I finished the 13,000 Km trip with the original chain. Chain lube is simple Squirt wax lube, nothing fancy.
Squirt - is one of the best. I use it on one GX chain and XX1 and one XTR chain - top tier chains behave really really well!
@michalwiktorow2188 Yeah, I had minimum maintenance for the chain during the trip. Only used a micro fiber cloth to clean then re-lube every 200-250 km. I was actually surprised the chain lasted the entire trip. I use an XTR 12 speed chain.
Another bike I use for daily commute at home with cheap €16 KMC 9 speed chain, will only do ~6500 - 7000 Km with Squirt. Some chains do last longer than others.
I wondered why the Thorn touring bikes used hub gears with a chain. It takes experience to overcome marketing.
Hi Heather. I'm in NZ, toured locally, in the Balkans and central Europe and about to head to Japan. I've had a Thorn Raven tourer with Rohloff chain drive for ten years. The only issue I've had with the hub gearbox is avoiding water submersion when crossing a stream/river and sometimes it's damned heavy work carrying the panniers then bike through a deepish 800mm deep swift NZ river. I met a guy locally and he was very enthusiastic about his plan to buy a pinion gearbox. Chain for me.
Already back in 2021, Thorn introduced a new model of its Nomad frame that has a splitter for a belt. Moreover, Thorn just posted on its blog a discussion of belt drives as an option strongly worth considering.
I appreciate that while the video caption is an all in statement(gotta get those clicks lol) in the video you more or less explained that they're not a good fit for the type of riding you do.
Excellent evaluation, thought process, and summary. Ride-on!
Same argument goes for the Pinion gear system, good luck finding parts.
Those rarely ever fail.
@binaryguruif you’re snapping belts your putting a lot of strain on your gearbox bearings
@grz987how?
@connordean9889because as you pick up stones in the mud and these stones are driven between the belt and the sprocket you places the belt under considerable tension. Grit and mud inevitably get into the gearbox and it’s maybe 1000 kg + of tension to break a new belt. You’d have to be rather mechanically unsympathetic not to notice but I guess it’s possible in deep mud with very low gearing?
Belts are best suited to city bikes but can still be great for MTB if you put bike in the back of your car to drive to where the trails are. You don’t want oily derailleur dirtying your upholstery. The advantage of being clean and oil free is kind of lost when the bike’s getting caked in thick mud.
Also the gearing in the crank rather than hub gives the rider more mechanical advantage to put excessive strain on the belt.
My chains used to rust in hours on salty wet roads while commuting. Never going back to a chain.
LoL.
Exactly. A chain can rust in one night if salt is involved and its wet coming into a hot room.
Never had a rusty chain in my 40 years of cycling and I live in a wet enviroment it's all down to what you put on a chain
@meibing4912stainless steel chains don't rust over night only cheap crap does brakes and chains needs to be maintained on a regular basis.
@andyhulme2274 Maybe you need to go to Specsavers?
well seems like a good business idea for a "spare belt container" so that you don't have to worry about your spare belt in your bag.
Ideally, a special slot designed _into the down tube_ of the bike so one never needs to worry about forgetting / displacing the seldom-needed belt.
I won't have a gearbox anytime soon, but I've had similar thoughts about belts. They're cool, but chains are just so simple to maintain and you can't swing a dead cat anywhere in the world without hitting a fresh one. Having the flexibility to use a bulletproof 8sp chain is a plus, too. With the popularity of 1x derailleur drivetrains these days, it's important to note that some of advantages you get with that sort of chain drop off when you consider the problem of sourcing a 12sp chain.
I am not so sure of the "bulletproof" 8-speed chains, except maybe the KMC-e1 narrow single speed chain; however, when in need you can fit anything between a wide singlespeed chain to a 11-speed chain, since 8-11 speed chains have the same internal width.
I had on my rohloff bikes already wide single speed chains, narrow single speed chains, 9-speed, 11-speed XX1 chains and they all worked. The wear was not indicated by the width.
I've had so many people telling me that belts are the best thing ever, when I told them I went back to a chain. I used a belt on my single speed winter mountain bike. I wore down the belt in 1 winter of riding in the mud constantly. Went back to a chain way cheaper, less maintenance and even more durable in the mud. There are of scenarios where a belt is the best thing ever. But high torque and very bad conditions are not one of them.
...or two of them!
ironically, chains rust, stretch, break links, constantly need to be lubed up, and derailer gears can bend making them even worse in mud and snow than a steel lined belt ever would be
@srobeck77 Chain has one major plus-side: it very rarely breaks without warning. The problem with belts (bicycle or automotive) is that it seems to work perfectly until it doesn't and it snaps. And since environment affects the lifetime of the belt so much, you can never know for sure if the remaining lifetime is 5 minutes or 5 years.
@srobeck77 ooh boy you have been on the belt-aid for a while. All the above is only true is you ride a 5 dollar chain. If been abusing my single speed drive train all winter including weeks of snow and months of mud with minimum maintenance zero rust and zero problems. I'm not saying belts are bad they are just not the holy grail and chains aren't bad either.
@MikkoRantalainen chain definitely break and they pop off of alot if you bunny hop off a curb with a derailer. Bike belts will never, do that. Plus they do have steal in them, so theres no such thing as any kind of snapping without about 10 years maybe longer
I love my two gates belts.
One did 25.000km on an ebike and is still going strong. It went off once on a steep hill in the woods. Basically the bike is either riding off-road or riding with a complete system weight of anywhere between 150kg and 400kg (that is me, the bike and the big trailer I use like others use trucks).
The other belt is powering a pretty basic steal touring bike which I love to take off-road as well. That’s the bike I use for overnighters and trips. It’s at 10.000km without any issues.
So far I never carried a spare belt. And in the near future I will not. I’m in Central Europe and even if I wanted to, I can’t get more than a days walk away from a train station. So if the belt ever snaps on me, it sucks, but I don’t have a major problem. Probably even if I had a spare with me when my belt snaps, the clever thing would be to walk my bike home (or to a bike shop), clean the bike, use the best tools and bike stands instead of fiddling around in the wood and dirt with the „expedition“ tools.
And so far I thought I will take a gates belt powered bike if I ever find the time and money for a one year trip (if politics allow likely also to Utah).
None of your arguments against an installed belt convinced me to go back to a chain.
But what makes me think is the point you made about carrying a spare belt. You likely damaged your spare belt just by carrying it around. While a spare steal chain is just in your frambag and you have nothing to care about (except for rusting).
So the carrying and potential damaging by carrying is a real concern. I am thinking: would it be possible to fit it into a stable round box and either tape that to the bottom of the handlebar- or rearrack-drybag or fit that box as a double floor into the bear vault container?
Good luck with the chain! I hope it takes you all the distance
@egalegal2058 Great comment!
I've rode biked for 20 years and e-biked for 4. Do you think we will see belt drive in the Tour de France or mtb pro racing? I am attracted to belt drive low maintenance & quiet operation tho I can't afford belt right now. Thanks.
@KenneyK12no I don’t think we will see belts in a racing context. A new installed, well cleaned and lubed chain with a derailleur is more efficient than a belt with a gearbox. If I could afford to have a mechanic come over every night to service my bike, I would be back on a derailleur and chain setup for those five percent efficiency 😅
Maybe we see gearboxes in selfsupported long distance races like tour divide
I have some experience with a Gates belt drive through my Zero FXS motorcycle. a belt is nice in the city but there are too many reports of off-road riders breaking their belts when debris (like bits of gravel or twigs) gets caught in the belt. Zero does offer a chain kit which many riders opt for when they want reliability. so, yeah, your argument makes perfect sense.
Was going to comment this. Sometimes cyclists just guess at how something will work instead of simply looking at similar use cases or even other genres of cycling. I don't ride dirt bikes but if basically every dirt bike ever has a gearbox, has more torque than a human, runs in mud and water and dust and gravel and sand and runs a chain maybe a bike with a gearbox that runs in water and mud and sand should do the same. Logical.
Running chains on long trips in remote locations makes sense. Carry some drip wax to lube the chain (like UFO drip wax) every 200-500 km and you’ve got a chain that’ll last 10,000km
or 6000 miles in normal human units
@ripsnort-d8zlol its cute...
I even have chains that lasted 15k km, just properly waxed every time at regular intervals. Had to replace it because I wasn't sure it was still usable since the chain wear indicator kept reporting it was still pretty good.
@ripsnort-d8z dammit Jim, all these humans are using Metric
@ryoukokonpaku1575 yeah even if it’s not wearing out, an old chain can break if it’s subjected to high stress repeatedly. You could look closely for signs of small fissures at the pins in the side plates
And here I thought the belt drive was the best choice for a touring bike. I still would want the Pinion box but I'm now sold on the old trusty, rusty chain. Thanks and happy travels!
I'm a very happy owner of a secondhand pinion with belt bike. Also biketouring and boy do I love that bike. Such a pleasure to ride. Im not riding offroad neither remote. Which I guess many of us are.
It is the best choice, he just didn't store it properly.
Its like storing a chain in a wet bag, it will rust and fail too.
@jaro6985 there is no "best". both have advantages and disadvantages. and the point that the belts are rather sensitive to certain stresses *without showing any visual hints* that their strength is compromised is certainly not a great feature.
@steefant the best is belt if you have unlimited budget though.
@jaro6985 Not really, as the video has stated, it's very dependent. You cannot easily source a belt if you're touring outside of western countries, a single speed chain on the other hand is everywhere and you can easily patch a broken link on the field without fully using your spare chain.
Especially when you consider the issue of silica dust that does actually eat away at the belts faster. We've had many similar experiences with dirt bikes riding in sandy terrain and have their belts snap due to abrasive eating away at the belt teeth if it isn't fully closed off from external debris.
Well put!
I can only second all of this as an ex-owner of a Schindelhauer ThinBike with a Gates belt which I sold after a year; rear cog was a PITA to remove and the two gear hub was rubbish since it switched gears at random when riding over bumps at high speed.
I haven't ridden a bicycle for at least 15 years, I have no intention of riding my bike, it's rusting in the garden. However I still found this interesting, you kept the mechanics interest in me peaked. Cool information thanks for sharing.
Thanks for putting this out man, definitely semented my view to switch to a chain.
The belt storage always has felt really annoying to me as I never know if I'm accidentally messing the belt up or not. I personally have never had mine break on me yet, knock on wood. But the reality of just going into another bike shop and grabbing another chain is just way more appealing to me as well as being able to store it anywhere on my bike.
Now that is due diligence!
Real world answers. I knew something was wrong with no maintenance. Ya right. Mud packing in pulleys as opposed to sprockets pushing through chain links says a lot. Good video. Nice trips and video footage
Sounds like you need a fully enclosed drive train. Dust and Water sealed. That way the belt would have not touched any dust or dirt.
One thing i love about chains are the quick links. You can literally carry a dozen quick links and you should be able to repair most of your chains on the road super quick. except for when you lose a massive chunk of chain where you need to get extra length. But that's where you use a full replacement chain.
I understand your reasoning. However what would you do if your pinion gearbox failed in some remote corner of the globe?
I think the best in-between is a Pinion or Rohloff gearbox with a chain. You still get all the simplicity of no cassette and derailleurs and the durability and ease of maintenance of a chain.
That said, one of my biggest annoyances of touring in wet and dirt is the constantly squeaking chain and constant cleaning.
A chain lets you know up front when there is anything wrong with it, a belt can silently deteriorate until it is too late. Depends on how you drive and which poison you prefer.
This brings up electronic shifting as well if your using wireless shifting as Lachlan Morton found out in the Continental Divide. I do very laid back bike touring packing that doesn't come close to your riding but I really go out of my way with having to deal with any issues on these rides that are going to leave me stranded.
"you're using"
I agree... my mantra is "simple and common"; simpler parts have less things to break and common parts allow you to find replacements at any old bike shop
For the strap wrench you might be able to find similar oil filter wrench in most auto part stores.
came here to say that as well
12:30 for the title answer
We have uniquely fine and abrasive sand in Utah and sharp sandpaper rocks. Things that deform or wear metal chains trend to snap carbon threads.
Pretty much the same feeling, my adventure bike is still chained but a commuter or cargo bike would be best with a belt.
Video starts @6:57
The idea of maintaining the belt in it's original packaging is a good one, you'd hope that solves the second problem. I think on your commuter bike these would rule but I'm in agreeance with you on the chain for away games. I've snapped a hanger and sent the derailleur into the wheel, needless to say I had to single speed it the 160 kms home. Hey cheers for the video, I think this was excellent.
I also use a Pinion gearbox with the Gates belt drive, and have also come to the conclusion that the chain is a better way to go - mainly because of the awful noise that comes from the belt most of the time unless it's spotlessly clean. I'll be swapping out my belt for a chain later this year.
I'm super grateful for finding videos like this. I only ride bikes and this knowledge helps. A LOT!
Well thought out and well presented information. Thank you.
After watching the video, if I was riding similar to where you ride I would also use a chain. However I would still switch to a belt at present as I ride pretty much locally so a belt drive makes sense for me.
Thank you for sharing your in-depth insights into the problems you've found with belt drives. I have heard about them snapping in really cold conditions, but this is the first I've heard about them being compromised by dust and sticky mud.
Have you noticed any differences in efficiency? Gates belts are said to be slightly less efficient than chains, at least as long as a chain is well maintained.
He is riding a gearbox as well, I think efficiency is not that important to him
I remember a video of a rider on a Tout Terrain gravel bike who also rode a Pinion and switched from a belt to a chain, finding his bike noticeably more efficient and "livelier" with the chain.
Even with a 1 x (vs 2 x) drivetrain they measured 1-6 Watts loss!
I had been riding a Pinion gearbox with a belt. In my experience you lose about 10 percent of the power you put on the pedal simply by using a belt. The pinion gearbox eats another 10 percent. People shouldn't believe in marketing phrases.
Honestly, I didn't notice any difference going from belt to chain. And I don't find the Pinion gearbox noticeably less efficient than a derailleur either. But I'm riding mostly rough terrain, fully loaded, and in those conditions, losing a few watts really isn't going to matter. I'm not a racer, though.
Thanks for posting this it's not bashing belt drives it's saying don't think a belt drive is a end all.
This sounds like a very specific problem for an extreme situation. Also where on earth do you buy your belts? You can get non-gates belts for 20€ or less and even the gates are
I ride mostly on paved surfaces but my belt makes all kinds of noises randomly. Soon after cleaning thoroughly it squeaks and grunts and groan again. Any body knows why and how to rectify this?
멋진 라이딩 영상이네요
Your justification mekes perfect sense. I always had some questions about belt drive, you anwsered all of my questions.
Expedition touring requires a bike thats maintainable in the field. I use a Surly LHT, with mech cable operated gearing, triple chainset, rim brakes and normal tyres with i/tubes. There is not anything on that bike that cant be repaired anywhere on the planet.
Except when the Flintstones rim brakes grind down your wheel rims and they crack needing replacement. End of tour.
3x8 FTW. I'll probably move to 2x11 when walmart starts selling 11sp chains.
Replacement rim-brake pads for adult bikes (the kind that slide into a shoe) are already going special-order-only in many countries. Even Chinese BSOs at the hypermarket come with disc brakes now. The world has moved on.
Everything you reported makes very good sense for choosing your drivetrain type carefully.
15:24 Go to a car dealer, they have tools to get the oil filter off that look alike, should do the trick!
Great video discussing the pros and cons. Love seeing stuff like this that has been truly tested by people who actually use the things they are talking about.
I remember when belt drives were introduced on motorcycles, way back in the 1980's. Harley Davidson was the first maker to use them, and the claims were the same, 3 times the life, and zero maintenance. Their belts were also made by Gates (the top engine belt manufacturer in the world at the time). Harley continues to use belts to this day. In regard to "high performance" motorcycles, they generally use chains, and belts are too wide, and would require some sacrifice of tire width. I live in Japan, and belt drives began showing up on shopping bikes in the 1990's, and are still popular for that purpose. In my own case, I've always used a chain, I'm old school in that I believe "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I have a BMW f800S with a beefy belt, 70,000km and looks mostly new. The motorbike is 90hp. Buel was using belts too, 100hp+. Harleys have tons of torque and belts hold fine
chains on motorcycles last, chains on bicycles don't.
You even get motorcycles with spoked wheels that last.
@svr5423got 2200 miles on my emtb chain……
15:26 I’m not understanding something - if you have a broken/spare belt couldn’t you pretty easily DIY the strap wrench? Seems like you could just screw the belt to a length of wood?
Can't say I've ever noticed chain noise, other than after riding thru the same river over and over again in Baja which made it creak and grind like crazy, but usually it’s unnoticeable.. any noise on a bike always seems to be from tires.. but the rest of your points are valid
yes, that aspect was very strange to me too. the only really noticeable noise from a properly working drive train is the freehub imho.
thx for sharing your experience and thoughts! have a safe and fun ride!
Watching Tristan pushing the bike through all that peanut butter mud is not the best promotion of the joys of bikepacking. But the other images are.
Definitly type two fun.
@rfwillett2424you know ball🔥
@michaelbigelow3255 same... i am on motorcycles 20 years, traveled many place. Whats the point of slow, hard work. Life is too short to waste it on pedaling haha
@firstname-m8gIf you have to ask the question as to the point of the slow, hard work of cycling then you're not going to like the answer.
Well, it’s hard to argue with your extensive experience. Thanks for sharing the hard lessons you learned.
Bring a piece of solid soap (yes you can actually wash yourself with it on a bike trip) and rub the belt with it . Works great. Turn the cranks relative to the chainring every now and then . Most force is applied at a certain point of the cranks and the chainring ring will apply that force always on the same point of the belt. Just a thought.
I don't like the grinding vibration in the pinion drive ... I wad constantly worried about the gearbox locking up and leaving me stranded ( because idk how to fix the gear box)
Good chain maintenance on tours worth it, with less friction than belts.
chains do not have LESS friction than a belt ..A belt literally has NO Moving parts ..a chain has Hundreds = friction..!
@AA_Not_a_MOTO_Mechanic Actually you're wrong here, a belt actually has been tested to be just around 95-90% efficient than a clean roller chain drive that can be up to 98% efficient if lubricated and has a straight chainline, this has been tested multiple times in labs.
The only place where a chain actually has moving parts is at the places where it bends, otherwise it's not moving at all, adding oil essentially makes the transition smoother vs a carbon belt eating through bare teeth of a sprocket, belts also have way more surface area per teeth than a chain drive which is why it has a bit more friction. There's a reason why belts aren't used for pro track cycling where efficiency matters all since all bikes are single speed.
@AA_Not_a_MOTO_Mechanic A chain is very efficient if maintained and lubricated. There’s greater friction between the wider teeth in the belt and the gear wheels in a belt drive.
@ryoukokonpaku1575 Yes and all that testing States it has to be CLEAN and WELL LUBRICATED....Everyone always forgets that a chain in the wild is a dust and dirt collecting magnet that is far less efficient when dirty , same with a gear box vs regular drive train...yes a DT is 95% efficient but ONLY in a Straight line a Gear box is 90% in all gears all the time ..Chains have rollers pins and plates the rollers spin around bushing the plates rotate slightly , they all collect dirt and that dirt IS FRICTION...you can stay in a LAB and ride your bike or you can go out and ride...if you do your chain is less efficient and requires lots of lube and cleaning to be efficient....!
@LászlóLovass Yes and all that testing States it has to be CLEAN and WELL LUBRICATED....Every always forgets that a chain in the wild is a dust and dirt collecting magnet that is far less efficient when dirty , same with a gear box vs regular drive train...yes a DT is 95% efficient but ONLY in a Straight line a Gear box is 90% in all gears all the time ..Chains have rollers pins and plates the rollers spin around bushing the plates rotate slightly , they all collect dirt and that dirt IS FRICTION...you can stay in a LAB and ride your bike or you can go out and ride...if you do your chain is less efficient and requires lots of lube and cleaning to be efficient....!
Tough call for sure. I have a belt Pinion, and I will probably keep the belt as I will only be riding in the US most likely. I may give the chain a go after my sprockets wear out.
I have an enclosed chain on my commuter bike and that has never needed any real care aside from tensioning it once or twice a year. I wonder if an enclosed belt drive would be even less maintanence.
Chain covers have no place on single track
Great discussion with a backdrop of stunning visuals, thanks a lot for this one!
I am interested in belts as a future drivetrain for a bikepacking bike too, but so far have not made the leap. One thing I have heard of is the VEER split belt. Was this not an additional option to use instead for an emergency? I have no experience, so this could possibly be a non-starter.
not compatible with gates one
I feel like all our bikes as kids had rusty chains from being left out in the rain and somehow they just kept working
You very persuasively sold me on the belt drive a while back, then even more persuasively unsold it for me last year. Thanks for this video and all your videos, your adventures are inspiring. Keep it up--or not--but we're routing for you either way.
I’ve got a pinion system with a Gates belt. No issues yet but I’m carrying an extra belt on a series of long tours, knowing it’s not easily repaired or sourced. Appreciate the information in this video.
I did belt for around three years and are back on “the chain”. Belts are expensive, end the supposed longer life do not make up for that in the long run. I do also enjoy a normal everyday bicycle that is not too expensive and fancy.
Not correct. A belt is twice the price of a chain, but it lasts three times as long. And you don't have to replace the gears like you do with a chain, because they don't get worn, and gears are the expensive parts here, not the chain or the belt.
@FluffyTrinford I dont know the prices where you life, but my experiences where very clear, it didn’t save me money when using the belt. The sprockets didn’t last longer than my belt, and they were quite expensive.
for me, i dont enjoy the weekly cleaning and greasing of a chain. I wouldn't ever go back to that sadist life. I even sold my black leather gimp mask that matched the bike chain
most expensive is always human labour.
Don't cheap out on parts.
Beautiful photography: but better without music.
Spare belt needs a hardcase
That was my thought.
If you use a VEER Split belt it can be stored with out worry or twisting..since it has an open end it can be rolled tight and small..better than standard Gates, and they FIT ANY bike with a hub drive or a Pinion!
@AA_Not_a_MOTO_Mechanic But then you'd have to carry the special (quite large) tool to even get the belt on the bike.
Very particular attention taken rolling up and onrolling a Gates. Storing a spare needs to be kept rolled, without any kinking. A semi-hard case would be the solution, agreed.
A Gates carbon hardcase no doubt
Outstanding drone footage, you did and excellent job piecing this video together, thank you for sharing!
I wonder if a chain guard could solve both the mud and dust problems?
You'd need it to be totally sealed. Dust will get in the tiniest crack.
Also you're adding weight and complexity of repair where you potentially don't need to.
So you could, but I would imagine it wouldn't be a preferred choice for most expedition riders.
Even if you ran a totally enclosed carbon fiber belt casing (light weight), you'd still have to use seals on the axle to connect the fixed motion case to the rotating motion wheel somehow. Seals would get ground up in the silica dust.
Regarding mechanical disk brakes, our tandem has Avid BB7 brakes (we use them for touring). They are very good; I would say they generally offer a better ride experience, without the risk, while touring. If you are going down hills and use them a lot, they will need adjusting, which fluid brakes don't. However, the adjustment is very easy and changing pads is a breeze.
Especially with a tandem, you might want to upgrade to the Paul Klamper, which in spite of its single-piston design has curiously more stopping power in my experience that the Avid BB7 (or the TRP mechanical brakes that are the typical other option).