There's a lot to cover in this video. The problem with these cables is there's the spec, and then there are cables that LOOK just like cable that meets the spec... but does not. So, without confirming some things, you could have the wrong cable, or a broken shield on a cable. It's not like the wrong cable won't work at all so it's not like it's an all or nothing, go/no go situation. The wrong cable can lead to random and intermittent problems though, and even to static electricity taking out an AES50 port on the console and/or stage box (ouch!). Depending on circumstances, that could happen the first time you use it, or a problem might not rear its head for weeks or months. But the potential is there for trouble with every deployment of the wrong cable or malfunctioning cable. Then there are people using the wrong cable, who know they are using the wrong cable, but since it's working they think it's fine. But, it's only 'fine'... until there's a problem. And sometimes they accept small gremlins as an outlier rather than trying to solve the problem. And many don't want to blame the cable since it (mostly) seems to be working anyway. Unfortunately, these people can sometimes pass that bad advice right on to others. Beyond all of that, even if you have shielded Cat5e cable, not all manufacturers connect both ends of the shield. They have their reasons for that, but for Behringer/Midas X32/M32's digital platform, that does not meet spec. Then there are the question marks and arguable points... Like, why the Ethercons need to make contact with the shield IF the shielded RJ45's shield makes internal contact with the chassis of the console anyway? I don't have that answer. If I had to guess, I'd say it's one of two things... or maybe both: Maybe the older consoles did NOT make the internal connection to the chassis and this was later corrected, but for Music Tribe maybe they think it's better just to make the shell to shell continuity the spec so that it covers the entire line of consoles and doesn't confuse owners who might not know which iteration of the console/stage box they have. Or maybe that internal connection on the console is prone to breaking due to transport and flex, and the shell to shell Ethercon continuity offers redundancy for that connection (should failure that happen). Maybe there's something else even. Really, the 'why' doesn't much matter... It's not that hard to just follow the spec, test it to confirm, and know you've covered that base regardless. There are also discussions on the interwebs about maximum length. Is it 100m? 80m? Well, as the Music Tribe website I show in the video implies... "It depends". Cable type... cable construction... they all come into play. As I say in the video, it's best not to push the spec to its max anyway. Use only the length you 'need'. And if you can afford it, buy multiple lengths so that you can have a few lengths to choose from for a given gig. That way you increase the margin of error, plus have some redundancy on hand if your cable happens to get destroyed somehow (it happens!). Then one last point- Cables that met the spec when new, might lose that shield connection over time. It doesn't hurt to recheck the cables every so often as part of a regular maintenance routine. The video mentions testing for this and some possible solutions if you run across this problem. This is something that circles back to the initial point about cables maybe working, even if they are not to spec... You're not necessarily going to know a cable has lost its shield connection immediately. Not until it bites you, and even then you might not suspect the cable because it's the right cable and tested perfectly when new.
@@carlosdiaz5486 I've never had one get burned out (knocking on wood right now) but I'm sure some people have lost both... Ignoring a problem in port A until it finally gets popped, and then just switching things to port B and now things work again... But the out of spec cable is still in the equation waiting to bite again.
It doesn't help that the cable manufacturers are either unaware of the differences in shielding continuity or simply don't care. We have two stage boxes at my venue and I bought a cable to run back to the board for each. They were advertised as shielded cat5e cables and advertised as compatible with the x32, The shorter one was even advertised specifically with shielded continuity at both ends which was present according to reviews that I read before buying the cable. However upon delivery It was discovered that both cables were wired incorrectly. And it's not like I simply bought the cheapest cable I could find off Amazon, I spent a decent amount time browsing trying to make sure what I bought was appropriate for the task I needed it for. Apparently you can't trust specs anymore.
We came into issues with cat6 using allen and heath products so just be aware everyone when using cat6. Manufacturer cant guarantee it will work. I see the debate in the comments below. great vid
Since we have so much data moving around, I moved to an armored single mode fiber snake and added Klark Teknik DN9620 AES50 Extenders to route the signal. It has eliminated a lot of potential issues, but we always make sure the cables from console to extender and extender to stage box meet the spec outlined here.
If you want the full 100m and for me it’s an absolute have to situation… I can confirm the EliteCore SuperCat5e works great. The maximum length on their site is 200’ but you can’t special order it. I play areas and sheds need all of the length so I purchased (2) 100m cables and bound them together with friction tape. I put them on a modified North Star hose real I purchased from Northern Tool mounted on a board. If the cable is stretched out and somewhat taught you can wrap the whole thing in under 45 seconds.
If you need an inexpensive cable that is for permanent install the Pro Co C270201-300F works great as well. It’s not “tactical” grade so I wouldn’t use in a temp application unless it was in a conduit or in a cable ramp from point to point. I have two of the bound together as a back up. For both instances I’m connecting my M32r to a DL251 at 48kHz so each snake as a spare line that use to duplicate with AES50B, use a return line with the cat to xlr adapters, connect the AES50 USB box for direct recording, or even let the LD use in certain instances as DMX return.
Yes, @DaveRat has a new cable that looks to be the way to go. Especially for touring scenarios and longer distances. Really, anything mission critical.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Sorry if this is a stupid question, but assuming that it is shielded and with continuity, can you use Cat7 or Cat7A cable as well as Cat5e?
@@gideonb93 I'd stick with Cat5e just so as to not introduce new things into the equation. I know Cat7 is a higher spec cable, but it's different in design and it's not what was specifically spec'ed for AES50 at implementation. The variable I'd probably worry about the most is what the changes might do to the Behringer spec over differing cable lengths.
There were a lot of gigs in April, mostly corporate, and none of it really lent itself to video topics (or time and ideas for them). So I didn't even get much content recorded that I have any idea how to use, except maybe some future B-roll I suppose.
I didn’t intend to put any pressure on you for releasing new content. When life gets in the way, or you need a break for a while, take care of your needs. We will be here when you return. There’s so much to learn from all of the videos you have created over the years. It’s a legacy to be certain. All the best!
@@stephentyler4352 Thanks! I didn't feel any pressure, it was just a chance to explain how busy April was. I had this video idea floating around for almost the entire month and just couldn't get a chance to sit down and actually start on it with a clear mind until this past week.
The wild, wild west of the 'internet' has been arguing for some time whether the Cat5e STP spec is a minimum spec or THE spec for AES50. Usually with some arguments for or against one side or the other as it relates to max distance. The FAQ I linked to and show onscreen indicates that it's a minimum spec though. community.musictribe.com/kba But I suppose that still leaves open some of the arguments about whether Cat5e can actually be used in longer lengths than some of the higher spec cable (I think the argument is more twists in the cable make for longer transmission than the physical length of the cable when you compare the two). No idea on that... and I might even have that theory/speculation wrong even. ;) And the truth is, I have no idea... Since it's no problem to get Cat5e STP cable still, that's what I always get for now.
Cat6, 7, 8 etc are designed with internet data in mind and are backwards compatible for its intended use. Digital Audio data is a different type of signals with different requirements, mostly strength and frequencies. With any cable other that 5e you're in uncharted territory using a system thats was not designed nor tested around those new cables, and for Digital Audio newer internet designed cables might mean better. As it was said, since getting Cat5e STP Ethernet is NOT a problem, there is NO REASON to not use them.
the length spec is different. 100m on the M32. 80m on the X32. The reps clarified that quite a while a go. The music group/music tribe site is hot garbage - it's filled with old and new information and information is lost every time they have a design/marketing studio company shit out a site redesign. For instance they've revised the AES50 spec across the board to be the same (including the pro series & HD) but that's lost to time because they can't keep there site in order.
With good cable... yes... 75 meters is about 246' and that's getting into the sketchy zone for stranded Cat5e as pointed out in the video. 150' leaves a lot of margin of error in length between that and 250'. Solid wire cable (which you CAN find for portable but is more likely to be found as install grade cable) is the one with the maximum of 100 meters.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thanks! Just want something long enough to work with, without the worry of a during show failure. I am going with the cable your recommended!
Any other brands/models of cable to use besides Elite Core? Their stuff is expensive! Nobody really posts their specs, so it's difficult to determine if their cable is suitable or not. I'd rather not buy several just to test. Lol.
I'm sure there are other brands, but as far as cheaper and meet the specs needed (and easy to work with too), I'm not really aware of any cheaper. I do think the Elite Core price has risen over time, so possibly they've leap-frogged someone. Dave Rat has some new cable he's selling that is supposed to be really good, but it's higher priced than the Elite Core.
You do not need ethercon to make it work. The RJ45 jacks have the contacts to simply use the properly shielded cable. Using a crappy cable will cause major cracks and pops especially in a static prone environment, been there done that, it's not fun.
I addressed this point about the Ethercons and shielding in the pinned comment. There's a reason this exists, but whether it's for redundancy (some potential the existing shield and chassis connection can break?), a run of X32 models where the shield wasn't tied to the chassis to begin with, or something else entirely... who knows?
@@AlanHamiltonAudio the best argument for ethercon connectors is how robust the connection is and how the lock tabs on regular RJ45 connectors love to break off if you look at them sideways.
@@TimmyP1955 ethercon is for a more robust termination. That's it. Nothing to do with shielding. The shield surrounds the RJ45 and that connects to the ground of the equipment when plugged in, the ethercon has nothing to do with that.
@@TimmyP1955 The funny part is... if you measure from the shield of the X32's AES50 port alone, it DOES connect to the chassis. So that connection is made internally without an Ethercon. But... maybe that is not true of all X32's and was a change made in production at some point. Or maybe that connection is fragile and prone to breaking due to chassis flex so the Ethercon makes a redundant connection. Or maybe it's just better suited for handling the current of static electricity and shunting it to ground? I don't know... Maybe there's an entirely different reason. Honestly, even if it's just redundancy it's not a bad policy.
There's a lot to cover in this video. The problem with these cables is there's the spec, and then there are cables that LOOK just like cable that meets the spec... but does not. So, without confirming some things, you could have the wrong cable, or a broken shield on a cable. It's not like the wrong cable won't work at all so it's not like it's an all or nothing, go/no go situation. The wrong cable can lead to random and intermittent problems though, and even to static electricity taking out an AES50 port on the console and/or stage box (ouch!). Depending on circumstances, that could happen the first time you use it, or a problem might not rear its head for weeks or months. But the potential is there for trouble with every deployment of the wrong cable or malfunctioning cable.
Then there are people using the wrong cable, who know they are using the wrong cable, but since it's working they think it's fine. But, it's only 'fine'... until there's a problem. And sometimes they accept small gremlins as an outlier rather than trying to solve the problem. And many don't want to blame the cable since it (mostly) seems to be working anyway. Unfortunately, these people can sometimes pass that bad advice right on to others.
Beyond all of that, even if you have shielded Cat5e cable, not all manufacturers connect both ends of the shield. They have their reasons for that, but for Behringer/Midas X32/M32's digital platform, that does not meet spec.
Then there are the question marks and arguable points... Like, why the Ethercons need to make contact with the shield IF the shielded RJ45's shield makes internal contact with the chassis of the console anyway? I don't have that answer. If I had to guess, I'd say it's one of two things... or maybe both: Maybe the older consoles did NOT make the internal connection to the chassis and this was later corrected, but for Music Tribe maybe they think it's better just to make the shell to shell continuity the spec so that it covers the entire line of consoles and doesn't confuse owners who might not know which iteration of the console/stage box they have. Or maybe that internal connection on the console is prone to breaking due to transport and flex, and the shell to shell Ethercon continuity offers redundancy for that connection (should failure that happen). Maybe there's something else even.
Really, the 'why' doesn't much matter... It's not that hard to just follow the spec, test it to confirm, and know you've covered that base regardless.
There are also discussions on the interwebs about maximum length. Is it 100m? 80m? Well, as the Music Tribe website I show in the video implies... "It depends". Cable type... cable construction... they all come into play. As I say in the video, it's best not to push the spec to its max anyway. Use only the length you 'need'. And if you can afford it, buy multiple lengths so that you can have a few lengths to choose from for a given gig. That way you increase the margin of error, plus have some redundancy on hand if your cable happens to get destroyed somehow (it happens!).
Then one last point- Cables that met the spec when new, might lose that shield connection over time. It doesn't hurt to recheck the cables every so often as part of a regular maintenance routine. The video mentions testing for this and some possible solutions if you run across this problem. This is something that circles back to the initial point about cables maybe working, even if they are not to spec... You're not necessarily going to know a cable has lost its shield connection immediately. Not until it bites you, and even then you might not suspect the cable because it's the right cable and tested perfectly when new.
Ever had both AES ports get burnt out?
@@carlosdiaz5486 I've never had one get burned out (knocking on wood right now) but I'm sure some people have lost both... Ignoring a problem in port A until it finally gets popped, and then just switching things to port B and now things work again... But the out of spec cable is still in the equation waiting to bite again.
It doesn't help that the cable manufacturers are either unaware of the differences in shielding continuity or simply don't care. We have two stage boxes at my venue and I bought a cable to run back to the board for each. They were advertised as shielded cat5e cables and advertised as compatible with the x32, The shorter one was even advertised specifically with shielded continuity at both ends which was present according to reviews that I read before buying the cable. However upon delivery It was discovered that both cables were wired incorrectly. And it's not like I simply bought the cheapest cable I could find off Amazon, I spent a decent amount time browsing trying to make sure what I bought was appropriate for the task I needed it for. Apparently you can't trust specs anymore.
Spec was posted long ago, yet it is unknown or ignored by many. A much needed video.
Is ignored by many including the cable manufacturers themselves....
We came into issues with cat6 using allen and heath products so just be aware everyone when using cat6. Manufacturer cant guarantee it will work. I see the debate in the comments below. great vid
Since we have so much data moving around, I moved to an armored single mode fiber snake and added Klark Teknik DN9620 AES50 Extenders to route the signal. It has eliminated a lot of potential issues, but we always make sure the cables from console to extender and extender to stage box meet the spec outlined here.
You're not messing around! :)
If you want the full 100m and for me it’s an absolute have to situation… I can confirm the EliteCore SuperCat5e works great. The maximum length on their site is 200’ but you can’t special order it. I play areas and sheds need all of the length so I purchased (2) 100m cables and bound them together with friction tape. I put them on a modified North Star hose real I purchased from Northern Tool mounted on a board. If the cable is stretched out and somewhat taught you can wrap the whole thing in under 45 seconds.
If you need an inexpensive cable that is for permanent install the Pro Co C270201-300F works great as well. It’s not “tactical” grade so I wouldn’t use in a temp application unless it was in a conduit or in a cable ramp from point to point. I have two of the bound together as a back up.
For both instances I’m connecting my M32r to a DL251 at 48kHz so each snake as a spare line that use to duplicate with AES50B, use a return line with the cat to xlr adapters, connect the AES50 USB box for direct recording, or even let the LD use in certain instances as DMX return.
Awesome Video! Thanks for doing what you do, I know it's appreciated by many!
Dave Rat has a solution for this very issue.
Yes, @DaveRat has a new cable that looks to be the way to go. Especially for touring scenarios and longer distances. Really, anything mission critical.
@@gazramang8645 Glad you enjoyed it.
Well I've been trying to work this out for about a year. Thank you.
Glad it helped!
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Sorry if this is a stupid question, but assuming that it is shielded and with continuity, can you use Cat7 or Cat7A cable as well as Cat5e?
@@gideonb93 I'd stick with Cat5e just so as to not introduce new things into the equation. I know Cat7 is a higher spec cable, but it's different in design and it's not what was specifically spec'ed for AES50 at implementation. The variable I'd probably worry about the most is what the changes might do to the Behringer spec over differing cable lengths.
always on point Alan, thank you.
Great video, Alan! Nice to see you back in the New York groove as it were. Lol. 😁
There were a lot of gigs in April, mostly corporate, and none of it really lent itself to video topics (or time and ideas for them). So I didn't even get much content recorded that I have any idea how to use, except maybe some future B-roll I suppose.
I didn’t intend to put any pressure on you for releasing new content. When life gets in the way, or you need a break for a while, take care of your needs. We will be here when you return. There’s so much to learn from all of the videos you have created over the years. It’s a legacy to be certain. All the best!
@@stephentyler4352 Thanks! I didn't feel any pressure, it was just a chance to explain how busy April was. I had this video idea floating around for almost the entire month and just couldn't get a chance to sit down and actually start on it with a clear mind until this past week.
Thanks for this. Any idea whether shielded Cat 6 or even Cat 8 cable is as good, or better?
The wild, wild west of the 'internet' has been arguing for some time whether the Cat5e STP spec is a minimum spec or THE spec for AES50. Usually with some arguments for or against one side or the other as it relates to max distance.
The FAQ I linked to and show onscreen indicates that it's a minimum spec though.
community.musictribe.com/kba
But I suppose that still leaves open some of the arguments about whether Cat5e can actually be used in longer lengths than some of the higher spec cable (I think the argument is more twists in the cable make for longer transmission than the physical length of the cable when you compare the two). No idea on that... and I might even have that theory/speculation wrong even. ;)
And the truth is, I have no idea... Since it's no problem to get Cat5e STP cable still, that's what I always get for now.
Cat6, 7, 8 etc are designed with internet data in mind and are backwards compatible for its intended use.
Digital Audio data is a different type of signals with different requirements, mostly strength and frequencies.
With any cable other that 5e you're in uncharted territory using a system thats was not designed nor tested around those new cables, and for Digital Audio newer internet designed cables might mean better.
As it was said, since getting Cat5e STP Ethernet is NOT a problem, there is NO REASON to not use them.
Edit: “Might NOT mean”
@@Mariozi I knew what you meant. :)
the length spec is different. 100m on the M32. 80m on the X32. The reps clarified that quite a while a go. The music group/music tribe site is hot garbage - it's filled with old and new information and information is lost every time they have a design/marketing studio company shit out a site redesign. For instance they've revised the AES50 spec across the board to be the same (including the pro series & HD) but that's lost to time because they can't keep there site in order.
Manufacturer recommendations?
I've had good luck with Elite Core. Especially their Supercat Cat5e STP Ethercon cables.
I know the video says 100meters ( 328')
But stupid question is 150' safe to use?
With good cable... yes...
75 meters is about 246' and that's getting into the sketchy zone for stranded Cat5e as pointed out in the video. 150' leaves a lot of margin of error in length between that and 250'.
Solid wire cable (which you CAN find for portable but is more likely to be found as install grade cable) is the one with the maximum of 100 meters.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thanks! Just want something long enough to work with, without the worry of a during show failure. I am going with the cable your recommended!
Hey Al!
Hello Hunter!!!
Hi 👋🏼 Al.😊
Hey Cindy!!
Any other brands/models of cable to use besides Elite Core? Their stuff is expensive! Nobody really posts their specs, so it's difficult to determine if their cable is suitable or not. I'd rather not buy several just to test. Lol.
I'm sure there are other brands, but as far as cheaper and meet the specs needed (and easy to work with too), I'm not really aware of any cheaper. I do think the Elite Core price has risen over time, so possibly they've leap-frogged someone. Dave Rat has some new cable he's selling that is supposed to be really good, but it's higher priced than the Elite Core.
You do not need ethercon to make it work. The RJ45 jacks have the contacts to simply use the properly shielded cable. Using a crappy cable will cause major cracks and pops especially in a static prone environment, been there done that, it's not fun.
I addressed this point about the Ethercons and shielding in the pinned comment. There's a reason this exists, but whether it's for redundancy (some potential the existing shield and chassis connection can break?), a run of X32 models where the shield wasn't tied to the chassis to begin with, or something else entirely... who knows?
@@AlanHamiltonAudio the best argument for ethercon connectors is how robust the connection is and how the lock tabs on regular RJ45 connectors love to break off if you look at them sideways.
I believe I read that the Ethercons are so that any shield energy dumps to the chassis. Without Ethercons, the energy dumps only to the circuit board.
@@TimmyP1955 ethercon is for a more robust termination. That's it. Nothing to do with shielding. The shield surrounds the RJ45 and that connects to the ground of the equipment when plugged in, the ethercon has nothing to do with that.
@@TimmyP1955 The funny part is... if you measure from the shield of the X32's AES50 port alone, it DOES connect to the chassis. So that connection is made internally without an Ethercon. But... maybe that is not true of all X32's and was a change made in production at some point. Or maybe that connection is fragile and prone to breaking due to chassis flex so the Ethercon makes a redundant connection. Or maybe it's just better suited for handling the current of static electricity and shunting it to ground? I don't know... Maybe there's an entirely different reason. Honestly, even if it's just redundancy it's not a bad policy.
Please give me shop address