this is something i have noticed a lot as the market has adjusted post 2021 boom. The amount of people who seem to think near mint = 10 is insane, by PSA's own grading standards a "Near Mint" card is a 7-8, the reasons 9's and 10's are significantly more money is because you cant just buy a random copy of a card online and expect it to be a pristine 10, if that were the case their wouldn't be any value to the higher slabs, they'd be a dime a dozen
Ive purchased cards at nm from all the major vendors left it in the package. then sent it into their buylist a year or so later they graded as LP and some even less. if its questionable as near mint or clearly not do not sell it as near mint. Especially if your own buylist wouldn't accept it as a near mint card. I have gotten so many poorly graded near mint cards from these online market places. Its not nit picking a little mark here and there- its clear cases of LP or MP cards sold as near mint. This as a buyer can be super frustrating especially if you collect and display your cards and the vendor doesn't pay for return shipping or hassles you over it. This is never buying with the expectation of a psa 10 card too or expecting to want to buy list it later it just simply should be the grade they would buy it at. This is wanting cards that match the grading guide of the vendor or website. i have been a buyer and seller in these markets. Sellers have caused me WAY WAY WAY more issue than any buyer ever did for me. I sell my cards in their listed condition- no one complains. If i can't sell them in their listed condition i off load them in bulk lots. When buying its hit or miss if its going to actually be near mint unless i pay a premium or use tcg direct. So thats all i do now. there is so much value in posting a high end card with photos in this market. You take the gamble away. its worth paying up for or using a service that is extremely strict with its grading and they dont hassle you if a mistake is made. . the solution is sell cards in the condition you'd buy it at personally. if you wouldn't buy it downgrade the condition. better terms could help for sure but what makes the biggest difference is honest vendors and in my experience i have left buying in these markets many times because to many dishonest vendors and vendors dealing with a high load they dont manage properly and the buyer gets burned for it. Ive introduced others to buying in the markets as well and they have quit all claiming it feels like a gamble/ scam you actually get what you paid for.
That because a lot of sellers mark their cards with the NM label, EVEN if they're in MINT condition, because they don't want to receive complaints about the condition of the cards. If you mark a card as MINT then, most of the time, the buyer will complain about it "What is this? a tiny tiny almost invisible dot in the corner? refund me immediately, you said mint and you lied.", so it's better to declare a lower condition when you're not 100% sure.
Yes, I came down here to say EXACTLY this! It's "near" mint......NOT mint! TCGplayer Direct took NM to equal MINT, and hasn't been the same ever since. Add on top of that Hasbro printing like shit and it's a fucking mess.
Agreed. I've always taken the term near mint quite literally. It's not perfect. It's just a normal card. It might not be PSA worthy, but it also might ya know?
As a business that sells primarily singles with my full time card business, personally I think the obsession with grading companies (SMH) and "PSA 10" has embedded this synapse response for a buyer to expect all cards that are "NM" in their mind to be "PSA 10". I absolute hate card grading and over the years I've noticed the buyers becoming more feverishly obsessive with PSA 10 for EVERYTHING. I had a buyer complain to me that they wanted a refund since the "bordering was off slightly off centered on the Fusion Strike Ninetales card reverse holo 030/264 and they couldn't send it in for a PSA 10 submission".... on a card that was purchased for $1.20 that has 30 plus qty listed on the item. I sell around 1200 orders a month online and 99 percent of them are singles that range from 1 - 2 dollars. Most buyers are decent, but over the past 3 or so years, I've noticed more returns and insane expectations on every card across the board due to the sheer obsession with grading everything.
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. As a fellow seller I agree that there are buyers out there with sentiment of "I bought a card on TCGP as near mint, that should be a PSA 10." We also buy cards for the business to have graded by PSA or CGC. As a buyer of said cards there has never been an example of us buying a card with the intention of grading without either seeing it in person or reviewing highly detailed pictures AND confirming with the seller that the card pictured is the one I'd be getting. The big thing I notice here are the differing level of expectations between what I'd deem "player first TCGs" and "collector first TCGs." I haven't had a major conditioning issue with sales of Magic as I think most people have the intention of putting the card in a sleeve or double sleeve and then playing with the card. Collectors, I think, have a higher degree of scrutiny on the condition of the card, which is totally fair. I don't think there is a perfect answer to this as condition is going to be highly individualistic in nature and can be misinformed based on terminology. In a perfect world, we would have the ability to share pictures of our 38 copies of the reverse holo Charmander from insert Pokemon set here, but the technology doesn't exist yet for an average seller to do that, and won't likely exist in the near term. So, as a buyer, if condition is the most important priority, buy only cards with pictures or that you see in person and as a seller understand that even if you have something listed as X condition you may be challenged on that interpretation and the only thing you can do is reference the TCGP guide or refer to the picture of the card you sold (if that was included in the listing).
Grading cards is just a way to sell yourself your own cards again, over and over again. This craze also leads to higher prices on raw cards as well. Inspite all this, I'm mostly finding graded cards nowadays if I search for an older card. And if there's raw cards offered, they tend to be in less good conditions. Just because everything else feels like some sort of leftovers, like cards which were sorted out before grading all the other and "better" copies.
"Unplayed" has been a term frequently used in gaming since at least the 1970s. "Mint", "Near Mint" are terms adopted from comics and sports cards, originating in coin/currency collecting. TCGPlayer's use of "Near Mint" is an abomination -- agreed that "Unplayed" would be far more useful.
You end up with the same problem. Disparate expectations. One of the main issues with card conditioning (vs grading) is the lack of granularity. You only have Near Mint, Lightly Played, Moderately Played, Heavily Played, and Damaged. To illustrate the lack of granularity, let's use the PSA grading scale as a comparison. A card correctly conditioned a "Near Mint" could grade anywhere from a 7 to a 10. This is an enormous range. Though some sellers do over-condition their cards (I have seen damaged cards conditioned as LP), I do think that most sellers condition their cards within the boundaries of a given condition. Buyers (from my experience) tend to expect the equivalent of PSA 9 quality when they order a NM card. They look at two cards both described as Near Mint and are disappointed with the card that doesn't live up to the better example. Who's right? Under the current state of the hobby, both are right. The dealer can't be blamed for describing their cards under the guidelines for the conditioning categories. The buyer can't be blamed for being disappointed that two cards with the same condition appear very, very different. The categories aren't misnamed. They are too broad.
People are confusing a PSA 10 grade that considers things like centeringx factory errors etc with "NM" for clearly worn out cards that weren't kept in sleeves.
Agreed, though I don't believe we should use the "pack fresh/never played" condition. If you are a seller you need to be good at conditioning cards properly and honestly. Nm-damaged is fine. People just need to be honest. I don't buy singles from TCGplayer (without pictures) because (from my buying experience over the past 2 years) most sellers condition cards higher than what the card is. I think a system similar to Japanese TCG stores with letter grades would be great. A+, A-, B+ etc.
What tilts me more is people selling cards creating a new description as VLP very light play. People just make up their own terminology’s so they can try and sell higher but in reality almost nobody actually is genuine with evaluating cards.
This is why I don’t buy raw singles! I’m not paying a premium for a gamble. One of my local card shops sells every raw single like it’s a damn PSA 10. No thanks.
Near mint is just fine to use but let's not confuse near mint with mint. They are not the same and should be a 'Mint' or similar category for tcgplayer
Near mint is a 7. Just because people don't understand doesn't mean we have to conform to their ignorance. It's been fine for over 40 years in sports. We can't let the terrorist win!
I have seen lately where people have been adding +/- to terms like NM and LP. Just seems unnecessary. It is all so subjective, but I like your approach in this video.
This makes a lot of sense that we have a holdover term from coin collecting and it doesn't quite work the same for us, especially with how inconsistent card printing can be. It's probably too difficult to change the established terms but selling platforms being more explicit with buyers on terms like Near Mint, Light Play and PSA 10 would help a lot. In my opinion most every card you pull fresh from the pack should be NM without issue.
Don't rip yourself off. Just sell as near mint and if the person on the other end disagrees, you can give a partial refund. I can think of a few times I've sold a card as lightly played but really it was practically near mint. I shouldn't have to use a microscope to grade my cards as near mint. Just eyeball it.
I've had pack fresh cards with a big crease in them, peeling foil, dents etc. I'd rather say NM if it is NM (PSA 7 or better according to PSA guidelines, or NM according to TCGplayer guidelines). Sure a pack fresh/never played card might not have any scratches or dirt, but it can be completely destroyed from factory so it is a pointless description. NM is NM according to established guidelines, whereas never played could be run over with a tank or used as a sailboat on a mud puddle, and pack fresh could mean it has a nice factory crease with all 4 destroyed corners and peeling foil.
Idk, unplayed doesnt really mean anything. Unplayed could mean it sat in a pile that fell on the few times and has who only knows what damaged... but it was never in a deck so its ok!
When listing with picture I use NM, played or damaged. NM could be anywhere from 2 minor issues or a rough factory cut to a PSA 10. TCGplayer is just running direct sellers through a whole lot of BS and I don't think the entire industry should adapt to whatever nonsense they want to randomly think up. They can try to standardize things as much as they want - it doesn't make them any more of an authority on conditioning. Conditioning is different all over the world and most people don't use TCG standards.
It’s tough selling raw cards cause so many are looking for “perfect 10”s to grade and get mad at the seller if the raw card is anything but perfect when listed nm.
This. I sell every single card in a reverse holo pretty much from Unbroken Bonds to Stellar Crown. Listed with images of each card taken and put online. It's insane the amount of people that expect every single card that is being sold for a dollar or 1.25 is going to be flawless top to bottom and ready for that PSA submission. It's so unbelievably gross. I have great feedback and most buyers are excellent but the increasing trend of NM is perfect for everything is snowballing and I blame card grading companies.
I think NM is fine. It saves the hassle from the anal idiots that have to pin point every little detail. I think adding a description box providing information about the card or have check boxes stating the flaws would definitely help out.
They should push for buyer's to look at there scaling they give sellers to condition cards with that might help cause I was just in a dispute with a customer on a light played card and they were unhappy that it was lightly played and wonted a refund because it had issues that put it in the lightly played category. Like some of the people that left comments I've pulled cards for the pack that should be listed as mod played or even damage but that's still pack fresh
I love when doing sports cards on ebay it goes "near mint" and next is "excellent". I list all my sports cards at excellent and have never had an issue
I'm not sure that what you're suggesting will actually change anything, it just changes the terminology we use for it. Many "Pack fresh" cards have damage that is indistinguishable from play wear.
IN support of what your are saying, I just pulled the Venusaur Special illustration rare from SV:151 and it had whitening on all 4 corners. Definitely LP or "pack fresh" but not "near mint".
platforms just need to do a better job of informing buyers what the condition scale is like. the conditoin guide is super hidden on like the tcgplayer blog or something, half the time I have complaints from buyer's they've never seen the condition guide before. the conditoin guide needs to be way more visible
Valud points, but no. Pack fresh is not a condition. I always tell customers I pull cards personally and sleeve and top load them immediately and put them as NM. With that said, I've had "pack fresh cards" that would have been marked HP, or damaged. I wouldn't list them as NM. Just as not played factory defects.
People will always act stupid, no matter what you call the card grade :/ It is the same kind of people who on the one hand sell their own dog-chewed cards as near mint and then get angry if the Near Mint card they buy has a slight acceptable imperfection. A lot of people buying near mint actually want mint without paying any kind of premium. Changing that mindset might just be like Don Quixote fighting windmills...
I do agree that near mint should be renamed to something like never played, but I think the main problem is that the highest grade currently is called near mint. There should be a grade above it called mint. The problem with the near mint grade is buyers perceptions. A buyer that buys a near mint card will expect that card to grade a 10. But if you look at the grading scales of all of the graders, you can have a seven or an eight and that is considered near mint. I think another problem is that TCG Player doesn’t require, the cards to come back to them for grading when there is an issue. Now maybe they do. I’m just not aware. The easiest solution is to do what you said and rename near mint to never played and add a new grade for mint for mint.
@@DavidSchlund-s4b You are correct in the Pristine and Gem Mint are both higher than Near Mint. But TCG Player doesn't have a condition for those cards. The general consumer does not look at a NM TCG Player card as anything less than a Grade 9. But PSA 7 is NM and PSA 8 is NM to Mint. For CGC NM is between 9 and 9.8. For Beckett a 7 & 8 is considered Near Mint. When someone online, especially Pokemon buyers, buy a NM card, they are expecting a 9 or 10 grade. I've seen many posts about this and have had conversations with others.
People can’t grade now. Why? Because they have sent their trash cards to PSA for over a decade and got 10s on a bunch of cards due to PSA being trash and rubber stamping everything a 10 or 9. Every seller has Gem Mint cards. Yours? Well those are 8s or slightly played until they buy them. After? Well they are 10s and Near Mint of course.
As a long time player/collector and occasional reseller, I agree with most of this but I always interpreted "near mint" as "not quite perfect/ideal". It's a quick way for people to know that a card is really nice but not without minor and very limited flaws. You made a great point that it is very ingrained in the community, which I think is perfectly fine. We can use whatever reasonable grading system we want, we just need it to be something relatively intuitive and more importantly we need to specify (with pictures or words) why a card has the grade it has. On my listings, I specify both pack fresh and near mint if both apply. Similarly, if it is purely a collectable/trading card and not from a game, then the term "never played" while true, makes little sense. If we use the tools at our disposal to be more accurate, being "honest" will just happen naturally as a result.
I think that "Never Played" or "Unplayed" is too ambiguous. I have several cards in my collection that are 25+ years old that have never been played but I doubt they'd score better than LP because of the curving/warping and being stored in a cardboard box. I could honestly list it as "NP" but a buyer would be disappointed. "Pack Fresh" is maybe slightly better but it's still too broad.
Rev recently graded a bunch of NM cards.from TCG player at PSA. I wouldn't consider any of them NM. Buy a card without bright, clear pics of the card at your own risk.
Completely disagree with the idea of getting rid of NM and using Pack Fresh. Using pack fresh while you acknowledged pack fresh can range in quality from NM to non NM quality just allows sellers to rightfully sell lower quality cards with the buyer having no certain knowledge of what they might be getting. Could even be damaged but hey it's pack fresh? NM makes perfect sense despite perceived subjectivity. If you disagree with the buyer, reiterate how you applied the condition standards and offer a return. TCGPlayer even just updated it's condition standards with greater specificity so there should be greater clarity on NM cards. Moving to Never Played also leaves room for interpretation that is arguably more confusing than NM. A card could legitimately be never played but be in terrible condition so intuitively sellers could feel justified labeling as Never Played but selling a damaged card.
@@Joel-ym3ij Sure but the term near mint is still applicable. When someone says near mint they don't mean it near the mint, they mean that it's near perfect quality.
Coins do have exactly this with circulated vs uncirculated . I think your proposal is better but not perfect. The hassle to change it all and the likely low approval of the change it'd be too hard to he worth trying imo. I don't see it happening
Instead of weakening standards or changing wording meaninglessly, both of which will only serve to disappoint and/or confuse customers further. How about we begin holding the manufacturers of these items accountable as store owners and begin documenting information on their poor practices and file a class action suit against them? Imagine opening any other product you bought as new and it being considered used or worse condition. Imagine buying literally any other product and just shrugging and being okay with a known manufacturer's defect. We need to hold them accountable for quality control and production practices on their product.
I hear you, but I don't think that would go anywhere. If a product made in a plastic mould doesn't have the edges filed down properly, do they get a law suit slapped on them? Clearly their tolerance levels out the factory may have changed, and we have to live with that or become vocal enough that we see change, but I don't think they are selling considerably less cards because of these issues unfortunately. Unless it starts to impact them financially things won't change.
Bad production of cards does not make them better "quality" categories, that is something I never got from TCGplayer. Sure, they also want to sell "NM" cards but just lowering the bars to what s still "NM" does not bring confidence. For that purpose I actually prefer the grading system on scales 1-10. Sure, not every card can be graded by professional services but that standard is set. A 10 will not have dings, scuffs etc. If the pack-fresh card would be a 7 then it is a 7, not a 9.5 because it sells better.
I'd be okay with it if there were subcategories of "Pack Fresh-Damaged" and "Pack Fresh-Mint". Otherwise, it just sounds like you're trying to dump buggered stock for the highest selling price.
Disagree. Just saying NP just makes it more difficult to tell what you’re going to get. You can get a pretty messed up card out of a pack and just saying Not Played wouldn’t relay its actual condition. As a seller I’m sure it’d make it easier for you though and you could get more $ for cards in worse condition. As a buyer the current system is much better for us. And to be honest as long as there are descriptions as to what conditions are allowed for each agreed upon term it truly doesn’t matter, which there already are on TCG and EBay.
@@chexcollectsreally? So if throw a pack in a volcano then retrieve it after it hardens and open the pack with the asphalt cards and call it pack fresh, you’ll buy it and not have anything to say afterwards/claim a refund when you receive burnt ends?
I have opened card that were “pack fresh” that ranged from pristine to literally bent from the factory…. You know damn good and well that a lot of sellers are just going to deem it “pack fresh” and ask near mint prices for it and then when i get it and i am upset that theres a whole ass crease, I cant do anything because its “pack fresh”….thats a negative from me ghost rider
I think you get what it means, though. Forget all the random one-offs. When we open packs of brand new pokemon cards, the quality is largely the same...unplayed and crisp. Pretty obvious what he means and what it would mean as a whole.
This isn't that hard. Where things get complicated is when sellers try to sell a card for a higher premium than they should. Here is the expectation. NM: It's the highest teir we have, it should be in the highest possible. Some factory whitening is acceptable. No dents, no scratches, no creases, no scuffs. LP: expected LIGHT flaws, some light scratches etc. MP: scratches expected, some may be deep, dents, scuffing, soft edges. HP: various types of damage but no creases. Damaged: creases and severe damage. You saying pack fresh should be the highest sounds more like you want to be able to sell a big hit that came straight out the pack with some imperfections, for a premium simply because it was never played. Pack fresh or never played can mean anything. Stop making it harder than it needs to be, we all know what NM means. I will agree that tcg player needs to fix their descriptions
The solution is better community awareness on what NM means. You show that a card can have up to three points and still be NM. People incorrectly perceive NM as Mint and just need to be reminded of that distinction.
@CNA-Games especially considering it seems rather arbitrary how they grade cards, whether be from different grading companies to the different games kinda have their own ecosystem of how grading is supposed to work. More power to the people that are in it for the long haul for that investment but I'd rather play magic and invest my money for a profit elsewhere. It just feels like they have "meta gamed" the fun out of what are supposed to be kids card games for the most part.
It seems like your stance aligns closely to "It's not my fault magic has bad QA!". It's not the consumer or collector's fault either, however they're the one's driving the market. Labeling these cards FD for Factory Defect would be a much more honest interpretation that doesn't come off as nearly anti-consumer as calling a crusty-edged card "Near Mint" or "Lightly Played" or the insidiously designed term "Pack Fresh". You certainly wouldn't evaluate all "Pack Fresh" cards the same when you are purchasing. This uses the same base logic to arrive at a conclusion that is much less anti-consumer. Magic's inability to produce a product that's on par with some Chinese dude in his basement is an issue that shouldn't be pushed off on players and collectors.
I disagree. Pack fresh is not near mint and it does not give a better description. Pack fresh is worse than near mint. If I drive over a pack with my car and throw it into a lake and retrieve the pack and open it. The cards are pack fresh. The cards are near mint? Probably not.
@@FriendlyNeighborhoodVikingWhy? I'm a frustrated buyer that orders near mint cards only and gets cards that are not even close to graded 7 quality. Lots of whitening, dents, scratches. Sometimes even creases. I need to put in the time and effort to write an appeal, fotos, message, waiting time for a reply. This time that I spend should be put into condition checking by the store. Not by me after receiving the cards.
@@FriendlyNeighborhoodVikingno, it isn’t. If a seller uses the term “pack fresh” it’s because they can’t grade or worse, they can grade but want to be deceptive to buyers about flaws.
I could get down with Never Played/Pack Fresh. Near Mint always rubbed me the wrong way anyways just because of defects from the printers or even nicking an edge or whatnot when you bust open a pack because the pack itself was really hard to open. You should let your growth rep know this, and we should all try to remember to tell our own tcg contact person this too. Or just email them a friendly suggestion about axing NM and putting NP/PF instead.
'Near Mint' ... cardboard game pieces aren't 'Minted' like a metal coin. The term "mint" is used for coins because a mint is a facility that produces coins, and the word "mint" comes from the Roman goddess of money, Juno Moneta. These game tokens are a paper product, much like the fiat 'money' most governments use. The government would pay the owner of the paper note either gold or silver in exchange. Unfortunately.. the governments... like gaming companies... are over-printing.. reducing the 'value' of the paper tokens.
Dude mint in this case means “in pristine condition; as new” calm down with the Roman goddess stuff because none of that applies to what he is talking about. 😂
Most of the cards I order from TCG Player are trash. It's appalling how bad the quality of "Near Mint" cards they send me are. I'm not expecting PSA 10 level quality, but when you have to send back 50% of the cards you order, that's a serious problem. I realize they are just commons, but I still don't want to receive "Near Mint" cards with scratches, creases, large amounts of whitening, scuffing, etc. As a buyer, I don't really care if the card has been damaged from being played with or if it came damaged because of issues at the factory. Damage is damage. I think the issue is with sellers just not giving a crap or think the average person is stupid or won't care so they don't take the time to inspect the cards to see if they meet the quality standards. Or they know that the cards are damaged but send them anyway. Personally, I think the standards for "Near Mint" are too low. 3 imperfections is too much for a card to be Near Mint. Especially, as you pointed out, some of them can be pretty big imperfections. So I'd love to see a category between Near Mint and Mint which only has like 1 or maybe 2 imperfections. But as it stands, I would say at this point that TCG Player is not for collectors. I've all but stopped ordering from them. For example, I had to order a Sprigatito 4 times from 4 different sellers just to get one that was actually Near Mint. If you are trying to build a deck for play or competition and don't care about condition, TCG Player is great. But for collectors, stay very far away.
I've graded hundreds of PSA 10s from tcgplayer near mint cards. Just a game of big numbers. Also better to avoid anything printed outside the last 2-3 years.
The issue is people think near mint is mint, the card is "near" mint, it's not always going to be a psa 10
this is something i have noticed a lot as the market has adjusted post 2021 boom. The amount of people who seem to think near mint = 10 is insane, by PSA's own grading standards a "Near Mint" card is a 7-8, the reasons 9's and 10's are significantly more money is because you cant just buy a random copy of a card online and expect it to be a pristine 10, if that were the case their wouldn't be any value to the higher slabs, they'd be a dime a dozen
Ive purchased cards at nm from all the major vendors left it in the package. then sent it into their buylist a year or so later they graded as LP and some even less. if its questionable as near mint or clearly not do not sell it as near mint. Especially if your own buylist wouldn't accept it as a near mint card.
I have gotten so many poorly graded near mint cards from these online market places. Its not nit picking a little mark here and there- its clear cases of LP or MP cards sold as near mint. This as a buyer can be super frustrating especially if you collect and display your cards and the vendor doesn't pay for return shipping or hassles you over it. This is never buying with the expectation of a psa 10 card too or expecting to want to buy list it later it just simply should be the grade they would buy it at. This is wanting cards that match the grading guide of the vendor or website. i have been a buyer and seller in these markets. Sellers have caused me WAY WAY WAY more issue than any buyer ever did for me. I sell my cards in their listed condition- no one complains. If i can't sell them in their listed condition i off load them in bulk lots. When buying its hit or miss if its going to actually be near mint unless i pay a premium or use tcg direct. So thats all i do now. there is so much value in posting a high end card with photos in this market. You take the gamble away. its worth paying up for or using a service that is extremely strict with its grading and they dont hassle you if a mistake is made. .
the solution is sell cards in the condition you'd buy it at personally. if you wouldn't buy it downgrade the condition. better terms could help for sure but what makes the biggest difference is honest vendors and in my experience i have left buying in these markets many times because to many dishonest vendors and vendors dealing with a high load they dont manage properly and the buyer gets burned for it. Ive introduced others to buying in the markets as well and they have quit all claiming it feels like a gamble/ scam you actually get what you paid for.
That because a lot of sellers mark their cards with the NM label, EVEN if they're in MINT condition, because they don't want to receive complaints about the condition of the cards.
If you mark a card as MINT then, most of the time, the buyer will complain about it "What is this? a tiny tiny almost invisible dot in the corner? refund me immediately, you said mint and you lied.", so it's better to declare a lower condition when you're not 100% sure.
Yes, I came down here to say EXACTLY this! It's "near" mint......NOT mint! TCGplayer Direct took NM to equal MINT, and hasn't been the same ever since. Add on top of that Hasbro printing like shit and it's a fucking mess.
Agreed. I've always taken the term near mint quite literally. It's not perfect. It's just a normal card. It might not be PSA worthy, but it also might ya know?
As a business that sells primarily singles with my full time card business, personally I think the obsession with grading companies (SMH) and "PSA 10" has embedded this synapse response for a buyer to expect all cards that are "NM" in their mind to be "PSA 10". I absolute hate card grading and over the years I've noticed the buyers becoming more feverishly obsessive with PSA 10 for EVERYTHING. I had a buyer complain to me that they wanted a refund since the "bordering was off slightly off centered on the Fusion Strike Ninetales card reverse holo 030/264 and they couldn't send it in for a PSA 10 submission".... on a card that was purchased for $1.20 that has 30 plus qty listed on the item. I sell around 1200 orders a month online and 99 percent of them are singles that range from 1 - 2 dollars. Most buyers are decent, but over the past 3 or so years, I've noticed more returns and insane expectations on every card across the board due to the sheer obsession with grading everything.
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. As a fellow seller I agree that there are buyers out there with sentiment of "I bought a card on TCGP as near mint, that should be a PSA 10." We also buy cards for the business to have graded by PSA or CGC. As a buyer of said cards there has never been an example of us buying a card with the intention of grading without either seeing it in person or reviewing highly detailed pictures AND confirming with the seller that the card pictured is the one I'd be getting. The big thing I notice here are the differing level of expectations between what I'd deem "player first TCGs" and "collector first TCGs." I haven't had a major conditioning issue with sales of Magic as I think most people have the intention of putting the card in a sleeve or double sleeve and then playing with the card. Collectors, I think, have a higher degree of scrutiny on the condition of the card, which is totally fair. I don't think there is a perfect answer to this as condition is going to be highly individualistic in nature and can be misinformed based on terminology. In a perfect world, we would have the ability to share pictures of our 38 copies of the reverse holo Charmander from insert Pokemon set here, but the technology doesn't exist yet for an average seller to do that, and won't likely exist in the near term. So, as a buyer, if condition is the most important priority, buy only cards with pictures or that you see in person and as a seller understand that even if you have something listed as X condition you may be challenged on that interpretation and the only thing you can do is reference the TCGP guide or refer to the picture of the card you sold (if that was included in the listing).
Grading cards is just a way to sell yourself your own cards again, over and over again. This craze also leads to higher prices on raw cards as well. Inspite all this, I'm mostly finding graded cards nowadays if I search for an older card. And if there's raw cards offered, they tend to be in less good conditions. Just because everything else feels like some sort of leftovers, like cards which were sorted out before grading all the other and "better" copies.
"Unplayed" has been a term frequently used in gaming since at least the 1970s. "Mint", "Near Mint" are terms adopted from comics and sports cards, originating in coin/currency collecting. TCGPlayer's use of "Near Mint" is an abomination -- agreed that "Unplayed" would be far more useful.
I propose black label adjacent
You end up with the same problem. Disparate expectations.
One of the main issues with card conditioning (vs grading) is the lack of granularity.
You only have Near Mint, Lightly Played, Moderately Played, Heavily Played, and Damaged.
To illustrate the lack of granularity, let's use the PSA grading scale as a comparison. A card correctly conditioned a "Near Mint" could grade anywhere from a 7 to a 10. This is an enormous range.
Though some sellers do over-condition their cards (I have seen damaged cards conditioned as LP), I do think that most sellers condition their cards within the boundaries of a given condition.
Buyers (from my experience) tend to expect the equivalent of PSA 9 quality when they order a NM card.
They look at two cards both described as Near Mint and are disappointed with the card that doesn't live up to the better example.
Who's right?
Under the current state of the hobby, both are right.
The dealer can't be blamed for describing their cards under the guidelines for the conditioning categories.
The buyer can't be blamed for being disappointed that two cards with the same condition appear very, very different.
The categories aren't misnamed. They are too broad.
Well said
I stopped using near mint and or pack fresh in ebay sales too many disagreements and returns. I only list it as used
People are confusing a PSA 10 grade that considers things like centeringx factory errors etc with "NM" for clearly worn out cards that weren't kept in sleeves.
One of my mottos as a store owner is "Near mint does not mean mint"
never played ..... but dropped twice, stepped on and chewed by the dog.... never played does NOT give a good idea of what you are getting
Agreed, though I don't believe we should use the "pack fresh/never played" condition. If you are a seller you need to be good at conditioning cards properly and honestly. Nm-damaged is fine. People just need to be honest. I don't buy singles from TCGplayer (without pictures) because (from my buying experience over the past 2 years) most sellers condition cards higher than what the card is.
I think a system similar to Japanese TCG stores with letter grades would be great. A+, A-, B+ etc.
What tilts me more is people selling cards creating a new description as VLP very light play. People just make up their own terminology’s so they can try and sell higher but in reality almost nobody actually is genuine with evaluating cards.
This is why I don’t buy raw singles! I’m not paying a premium for a gamble. One of my local card shops sells every raw single like it’s a damn PSA 10. No thanks.
i think a big problem with asessing condition currently, a 15 cent card should have a different standard than a 100$ card
NP and then maybe require including pictures on cards listed over a certain dollar amount.
If I list any singles I'm for sure posting a photo (front and back) of the card. only if it costs more than 5$
Man this was beautifully spoken!
another idea would be "pack fresh clean" and "pack fresh damaged" or "dinged" to give a better idea for card grading.
Near mint is just fine to use but let's not confuse near mint with mint. They are not the same and should be a 'Mint' or similar category for tcgplayer
Near mint is a 7. Just because people don't understand doesn't mean we have to conform to their ignorance. It's been fine for over 40 years in sports. We can't let the terrorist win!
I have seen lately where people have been adding +/- to terms like NM and LP. Just seems unnecessary. It is all so subjective, but I like your approach in this video.
This makes a lot of sense that we have a holdover term from coin collecting and it doesn't quite work the same for us, especially with how inconsistent card printing can be. It's probably too difficult to change the established terms but selling platforms being more explicit with buyers on terms like Near Mint, Light Play and PSA 10 would help a lot. In my opinion most every card you pull fresh from the pack should be NM without issue.
All the cards from my Duskmourn play booster box has rough cut along to top of the cards.
If it’s been inside an LGS could it ever really be considered fresh?
Don't rip yourself off. Just sell as near mint and if the person on the other end disagrees, you can give a partial refund. I can think of a few times I've sold a card as lightly played but really it was practically near mint. I shouldn't have to use a microscope to grade my cards as near mint. Just eyeball it.
I've had pack fresh cards with a big crease in them, peeling foil, dents etc. I'd rather say NM if it is NM (PSA 7 or better according to PSA guidelines, or NM according to TCGplayer guidelines). Sure a pack fresh/never played card might not have any scratches or dirt, but it can be completely destroyed from factory so it is a pointless description. NM is NM according to established guidelines, whereas never played could be run over with a tank or used as a sailboat on a mud puddle, and pack fresh could mean it has a nice factory crease with all 4 destroyed corners and peeling foil.
Idk, unplayed doesnt really mean anything. Unplayed could mean it sat in a pile that fell on the few times and has who only knows what damaged... but it was never in a deck so its ok!
Pack fresh would have gotten us killed with Bloomburrow.
Here’s a crazy idea… mint
Near mint makes sense if everyone understood it’s at least about a psa 7
When listing with picture I use NM, played or damaged. NM could be anywhere from 2 minor issues or a rough factory cut to a PSA 10. TCGplayer is just running direct sellers through a whole lot of BS and I don't think the entire industry should adapt to whatever nonsense they want to randomly think up. They can try to standardize things as much as they want - it doesn't make them any more of an authority on conditioning. Conditioning is different all over the world and most people don't use TCG standards.
It’s tough selling raw cards cause so many are looking for “perfect 10”s to grade and get mad at the seller if the raw card is anything but perfect when listed nm.
This. I sell every single card in a reverse holo pretty much from Unbroken Bonds to Stellar Crown. Listed with images of each card taken and put online. It's insane the amount of people that expect every single card that is being sold for a dollar or 1.25 is going to be flawless top to bottom and ready for that PSA submission. It's so unbelievably gross. I have great feedback and most buyers are excellent but the increasing trend of NM is perfect for everything is snowballing and I blame card grading companies.
I think NM is fine. It saves the hassle from the anal idiots that have to pin point every little detail. I think adding a description box providing information about the card or have check boxes stating the flaws would definitely help out.
They should push for buyer's to look at there scaling they give sellers to condition cards with that might help cause I was just in a dispute with a customer on a light played card and they were unhappy that it was lightly played and wonted a refund because it had issues that put it in the lightly played category. Like some of the people that left comments I've pulled cards for the pack that should be listed as mod played or even damage but that's still pack fresh
I love when doing sports cards on ebay it goes "near mint" and next is "excellent". I list all my sports cards at excellent and have never had an issue
I'm not sure that what you're suggesting will actually change anything, it just changes the terminology we use for it. Many "Pack fresh" cards have damage that is indistinguishable from play wear.
I say bring in the 10 point conditioning that ebay and many other sites use for 1980 sports cards and older
IN support of what your are saying, I just pulled the Venusaur Special illustration rare from SV:151 and it had whitening on all 4 corners. Definitely LP or "pack fresh" but not "near mint".
Just watch double jump games if you want to know how to do it
platforms just need to do a better job of informing buyers what the condition scale is like. the conditoin guide is super hidden on like the tcgplayer blog or something, half the time I have complaints from buyer's they've never seen the condition guide before. the conditoin guide needs to be way more visible
Valud points, but no. Pack fresh is not a condition. I always tell customers I pull cards personally and sleeve and top load them immediately and put them as NM. With that said, I've had "pack fresh cards" that would have been marked HP, or damaged. I wouldn't list them as NM. Just as not played factory defects.
This makes a ton of sense! Great insight!!
People will always act stupid, no matter what you call the card grade :/
It is the same kind of people who on the one hand sell their own dog-chewed cards as near mint and then get angry if the Near Mint card they buy has a slight acceptable imperfection. A lot of people buying near mint actually want mint without paying any kind of premium. Changing that mindset might just be like Don Quixote fighting windmills...
we dont ever use NM we just mark shit as SP or LP and people are happier this way.
I do agree that near mint should be renamed to something like never played, but I think the main problem is that the highest grade currently is called near mint. There should be a grade above it called mint. The problem with the near mint grade is buyers perceptions. A buyer that buys a near mint card will expect that card to grade a 10. But if you look at the grading scales of all of the graders, you can have a seven or an eight and that is considered near mint. I think another problem is that TCG Player doesn’t require, the cards to come back to them for grading when there is an issue. Now maybe they do. I’m just not aware. The easiest solution is to do what you said and rename near mint to never played and add a new grade for mint for mint.
absolutely not true, Pristine and Gem Mint are both higher than Near Mint
@@DavidSchlund-s4b You are correct in the Pristine and Gem Mint are both higher than Near Mint. But TCG Player doesn't have a condition for those cards. The general consumer does not look at a NM TCG Player card as anything less than a Grade 9. But PSA 7 is NM and PSA 8 is NM to Mint. For CGC NM is between 9 and 9.8. For Beckett a 7 & 8 is considered Near Mint. When someone online, especially Pokemon buyers, buy a NM card, they are expecting a 9 or 10 grade. I've seen many posts about this and have had conversations with others.
What about lightly played?
People can’t grade now. Why? Because they have sent their trash cards to PSA for over a decade and got 10s on a bunch of cards due to PSA being trash and rubber stamping everything a 10 or 9. Every seller has Gem Mint cards. Yours? Well those are 8s or slightly played until they buy them. After? Well they are 10s and Near Mint of course.
As a long time player/collector and occasional reseller, I agree with most of this but I always interpreted "near mint" as "not quite perfect/ideal". It's a quick way for people to know that a card is really nice but not without minor and very limited flaws.
You made a great point that it is very ingrained in the community, which I think is perfectly fine. We can use whatever reasonable grading system we want, we just need it to be something relatively intuitive and more importantly we need to specify (with pictures or words) why a card has the grade it has.
On my listings, I specify both pack fresh and near mint if both apply. Similarly, if it is purely a collectable/trading card and not from a game, then the term "never played" while true, makes little sense. If we use the tools at our disposal to be more accurate, being "honest" will just happen naturally as a result.
disagree NM should be very very close to mint and no dings dents scratches or little to no white edges.
I think that "Never Played" or "Unplayed" is too ambiguous. I have several cards in my collection that are 25+ years old that have never been played but I doubt they'd score better than LP because of the curving/warping and being stored in a cardboard box. I could honestly list it as "NP" but a buyer would be disappointed. "Pack Fresh" is maybe slightly better but it's still too broad.
Rev recently graded a bunch of NM cards.from TCG player at PSA. I wouldn't consider any of them NM.
Buy a card without bright, clear pics of the card at your own risk.
pack fresh is one of the terms of all time
Completely disagree with the idea of getting rid of NM and using Pack Fresh. Using pack fresh while you acknowledged pack fresh can range in quality from NM to non NM quality just allows sellers to rightfully sell lower quality cards with the buyer having no certain knowledge of what they might be getting. Could even be damaged but hey it's pack fresh? NM makes perfect sense despite perceived subjectivity. If you disagree with the buyer, reiterate how you applied the condition standards and offer a return. TCGPlayer even just updated it's condition standards with greater specificity so there should be greater clarity on NM cards. Moving to Never Played also leaves room for interpretation that is arguably more confusing than NM. A card could legitimately be never played but be in terrible condition so intuitively sellers could feel justified labeling as Never Played but selling a damaged card.
Cards are not Minted.. they are printed.
@@Joel-ym3ij Sure but the term near mint is still applicable. When someone says near mint they don't mean it near the mint, they mean that it's near perfect quality.
I like what you’re saying but seeing all POVs I think a new highest category Mint would do the job perfectly
Coins do have exactly this with circulated vs uncirculated . I think your proposal is better but not perfect. The hassle to change it all and the likely low approval of the change it'd be too hard to he worth trying imo. I don't see it happening
You covered that it's unlikely too. Nice video
Instead of weakening standards or changing wording meaninglessly, both of which will only serve to disappoint and/or confuse customers further. How about we begin holding the manufacturers of these items accountable as store owners and begin documenting information on their poor practices and file a class action suit against them? Imagine opening any other product you bought as new and it being considered used or worse condition. Imagine buying literally any other product and just shrugging and being okay with a known manufacturer's defect. We need to hold them accountable for quality control and production practices on their product.
I hear you, but I don't think that would go anywhere. If a product made in a plastic mould doesn't have the edges filed down properly, do they get a law suit slapped on them? Clearly their tolerance levels out the factory may have changed, and we have to live with that or become vocal enough that we see change, but I don't think they are selling considerably less cards because of these issues unfortunately. Unless it starts to impact them financially things won't change.
Bad production of cards does not make them better "quality" categories, that is something I never got from TCGplayer. Sure, they also want to sell "NM" cards but just lowering the bars to what s still "NM" does not bring confidence.
For that purpose I actually prefer the grading system on scales 1-10. Sure, not every card can be graded by professional services but that standard is set. A 10 will not have dings, scuffs etc. If the pack-fresh card would be a 7 then it is a 7, not a 9.5 because it sells better.
I'm with you.
Whole heartedly agree NP all day
I'd be okay with it if there were subcategories of "Pack Fresh-Damaged" and "Pack Fresh-Mint". Otherwise, it just sounds like you're trying to dump buggered stock for the highest selling price.
Disagree. Just saying NP just makes it more difficult to tell what you’re going to get. You can get a pretty messed up card out of a pack and just saying Not Played wouldn’t relay its actual condition. As a seller I’m sure it’d make it easier for you though and you could get more $ for cards in worse condition. As a buyer the current system is much better for us. And to be honest as long as there are descriptions as to what conditions are allowed for each agreed upon term it truly doesn’t matter, which there already are on TCG and EBay.
Pack fresh is not a condition
People know what it means, though.
@@chexcollectsreally? So if throw a pack in a volcano then retrieve it after it hardens and open the pack with the asphalt cards and call it pack fresh, you’ll buy it and not have anything to say afterwards/claim a refund when you receive burnt ends?
@@CostcoFries you already know how ridiculous that is 😅. 99.9% of the time when we open packs of cards we get the condition it means. Dont be silly.
Gonna have to start calling cards Pack Fresh if ya expect a 10 lol
I think Gradable is a better term
Near Mint plus
I have opened card that were “pack fresh” that ranged from pristine to literally bent from the factory…. You know damn good and well that a lot of sellers are just going to deem it “pack fresh” and ask near mint prices for it and then when i get it and i am upset that theres a whole ass crease, I cant do anything because its “pack fresh”….thats a negative from me ghost rider
I think you get what it means, though. Forget all the random one-offs. When we open packs of brand new pokemon cards, the quality is largely the same...unplayed and crisp. Pretty obvious what he means and what it would mean as a whole.
This isn't that hard. Where things get complicated is when sellers try to sell a card for a higher premium than they should. Here is the expectation. NM: It's the highest teir we have, it should be in the highest possible. Some factory whitening is acceptable. No dents, no scratches, no creases, no scuffs. LP: expected LIGHT flaws, some light scratches etc. MP: scratches expected, some may be deep, dents, scuffing, soft edges. HP: various types of damage but no creases. Damaged: creases and severe damage.
You saying pack fresh should be the highest sounds more like you want to be able to sell a big hit that came straight out the pack with some imperfections, for a premium simply because it was never played. Pack fresh or never played can mean anything. Stop making it harder than it needs to be, we all know what NM means. I will agree that tcg player needs to fix their descriptions
The solution is better community awareness on what NM means. You show that a card can have up to three points and still be NM. People incorrectly perceive NM as Mint and just need to be reminded of that distinction.
Near Mint = Lightly Played
Mkohl40's big brother.
Near mint implies a flaw...
Wow Kyle. You're right XD
The fact that I just now made that connection probably means it's a pretty obtuse concept for others as well.
@@CNA-Games it's all good. We've all been there. The grading system isn't exactly user friendly as much as some people try to say it is
@CNA-Games especially considering it seems rather arbitrary how they grade cards, whether be from different grading companies to the different games kinda have their own ecosystem of how grading is supposed to work. More power to the people that are in it for the long haul for that investment but I'd rather play magic and invest my money for a profit elsewhere. It just feels like they have "meta gamed" the fun out of what are supposed to be kids card games for the most part.
It seems like your stance aligns closely to "It's not my fault magic has bad QA!". It's not the consumer or collector's fault either, however they're the one's driving the market.
Labeling these cards FD for Factory Defect would be a much more honest interpretation that doesn't come off as nearly anti-consumer as calling a crusty-edged card "Near Mint" or "Lightly Played" or the insidiously designed term "Pack Fresh". You certainly wouldn't evaluate all "Pack Fresh" cards the same when you are purchasing.
This uses the same base logic to arrive at a conclusion that is much less anti-consumer. Magic's inability to produce a product that's on par with some Chinese dude in his basement is an issue that shouldn't be pushed off on players and collectors.
I disagree. Pack fresh is not near mint and it does not give a better description. Pack fresh is worse than near mint. If I drive over a pack with my car and throw it into a lake and retrieve the pack and open it. The cards are pack fresh. The cards are near mint? Probably not.
Complete Strawman's argument.
@@FriendlyNeighborhoodVikingWhy? I'm a frustrated buyer that orders near mint cards only and gets cards that are not even close to graded 7 quality. Lots of whitening, dents, scratches. Sometimes even creases. I need to put in the time and effort to write an appeal, fotos, message, waiting time for a reply. This time that I spend should be put into condition checking by the store. Not by me after receiving the cards.
@@FriendlyNeighborhoodViking No kidding lol
@@FriendlyNeighborhoodVikingno, it isn’t. If a seller uses the term “pack fresh” it’s because they can’t grade or worse, they can grade but want to be deceptive to buyers about flaws.
Lmao.
And other stupid terms like pack fresh
is English your first language?
I could get down with Never Played/Pack Fresh. Near Mint always rubbed me the wrong way anyways just because of defects from the printers or even nicking an edge or whatnot when you bust open a pack because the pack itself was really hard to open. You should let your growth rep know this, and we should all try to remember to tell our own tcg contact person this too. Or just email them a friendly suggestion about axing NM and putting NP/PF instead.
Never Played / Played / Damaged.
I completely agree.
yes
'Near Mint' ... cardboard game pieces aren't 'Minted' like a metal coin. The term "mint" is used for coins because a mint is a facility that produces coins, and the word "mint" comes from the Roman goddess of money, Juno Moneta. These game tokens are a paper product, much like the fiat 'money' most governments use. The government would pay the owner of the paper note either gold or silver in exchange. Unfortunately.. the governments... like gaming companies... are over-printing.. reducing the 'value' of the paper tokens.
Dude mint in this case means “in pristine condition; as new” calm down with the Roman goddess stuff because none of that applies to what he is talking about. 😂
@@TealGaming-fb8bs Right lol 😂🤣
Hey man fix the volume. I can barely hear you and feel a lot of good content got wasted cause I couldn’t hear you buddy.
Most of the cards I order from TCG Player are trash. It's appalling how bad the quality of "Near Mint" cards they send me are. I'm not expecting PSA 10 level quality, but when you have to send back 50% of the cards you order, that's a serious problem. I realize they are just commons, but I still don't want to receive "Near Mint" cards with scratches, creases, large amounts of whitening, scuffing, etc. As a buyer, I don't really care if the card has been damaged from being played with or if it came damaged because of issues at the factory. Damage is damage. I think the issue is with sellers just not giving a crap or think the average person is stupid or won't care so they don't take the time to inspect the cards to see if they meet the quality standards. Or they know that the cards are damaged but send them anyway.
Personally, I think the standards for "Near Mint" are too low. 3 imperfections is too much for a card to be Near Mint. Especially, as you pointed out, some of them can be pretty big imperfections. So I'd love to see a category between Near Mint and Mint which only has like 1 or maybe 2 imperfections.
But as it stands, I would say at this point that TCG Player is not for collectors. I've all but stopped ordering from them. For example, I had to order a Sprigatito 4 times from 4 different sellers just to get one that was actually Near Mint. If you are trying to build a deck for play or competition and don't care about condition, TCG Player is great. But for collectors, stay very far away.
Where do you go instead?
I've graded hundreds of PSA 10s from tcgplayer near mint cards. Just a game of big numbers. Also better to avoid anything printed outside the last 2-3 years.