I started Story Grid with the same Podcast you did. I loved listening to Tim's story and revisions. I dropped it for the same reasons. I will check them out again.
I hope their content & such going forward fulfills our expectations here! :) I've checked out a few of their youtube videos as well, some of which seem very practical & useful!
@@andi-roo-pookins I don't think so but I've noticed a renewed focus on practicality in their RUclips videos...I think a lot of this is meant to apply to their Story Grid Guild (their course)
I'm utterly enthralled with story structure, but I like to apply it AFTER I've vomited out a zero draft. Hardcore plotters swear this means I'm wasting time and effort on unnecessary rewrites, but I'm not sure how that math pans out - either way you're putting a ton of work into the project, and the only difference is whether it's on the front end or the back end. ANYWAY... SG has always seemed to me like a wonderful way to ensure your next draft hits all the marks. Having said all that, I can easily use SG and other story structure formulas to procrastinate on the actual practice of writing. It's much easier to THINK about the process than to actually Do The Work. Which is why I still don't have a completed manuscript LOLOL 😂
Yes!! I'm super with you - I do the most in-depth structure stuff post-first draft and I think you're totally right that it's about where you spend your time. I've also noticed that even if I do a TON of work upfront, writing a first draft can be so overwhelming, a lot of that planning goes out the window. I feel some pressure off, if that makes sense, if I've already written the thing Totally agree SG is awesome for setting yourself up for success on the second draft!! And I do the same :) There's this quote I love "reading about writing is not writing"...I think it's all fairly worthless without butt in chair, you know? I'm bad for procrastinating too!!
I learned SG back in 2019/2020 from the book and a friend. Too formulaic for me. Good writing is art, not science. My question to my friend was 'name me one bestselling novel written using SG'. I never got an answer.
That's fair...I actually don't know of any coming out of their guild. I wonder.... I think Shawn Coyne developed it based on some conversations with his best selling authors...anyway, it's definitely not for everyone! I think there are concrete skills you can learn as a writer, though, which I hope they're focusing in on. I very much question anyone who is like "learn the science of a bestseller". Erm... 😂
Sorry, but not sorry... Tim's announcement left me with a bad taste in my mouth. SG took a lot of people's money and time to learn their system had flaws. They advertised it as being worth the high price because it was unique. Now, they've realized it needs to be more like what's been done for centuries. Um.
That is SUCH a fair point..I'm curious how folks who took their courses before they were revamped think about it - if they're satisfied or regretful or...
I started reading Shawn before the book came out, when it was posts on the blog. As I'd made my own database for getting an overview of my series, you can see how it was right up my alley. Then I listened to every ep of the podcast for years... Then, like a lot of other writers, I tuned out when Shawn started speaking of 'phears' and avatars and other strange unnecessary terminology. But then, I liked Tim's new RUclips channel where he seemed to be more personal and practical. But /then/ I signed up to get an advanced reader copy of his book which he said followed all their new ideas, and which Shawn apparently loved - and reading it I could see how it followed their structural guidelines... But I really did not like it. It brought home to me that their analytical tools are good, their structural ideas for laying out your story ahead of writing it are good - but writing a good novel still comes down to having engaging and entertaining ideas, and then following through with them in a way that makes sense and fulfills the readers expectations while also being a bit surprising. Tim's book was surprising only in that I kept saying "oh no, he's not really going there is he?" in dread, not anticipation. It was ridiculously plotted and the characters were all either unlikable or paper thin. Given all that, I don't know how much more attention I can pay to anything they have to offer.
Ooo wow back when it was a blog - so you have been tuned into it for a long time!! I can see how it would appeal - I love the spreadsheet as well...I think your journey with the in/out of it is super interesting & insightful! I haven't read Tim's book but I think you're highlighting an important aspect - writing/stories/etc. are subjective. They're never not going to be subjective. For a long time they talked about writing a story that "works" and while I think it can be very clear when a story just does NOT work (it's confusing, for example, and readers can't follow), but not every story is going to work for every reader. Btw I love this framing of what a good story does, sums it up SO well: "writing a good novel still comes down to having engaging and entertaining ideas, and then following through with them in a way that makes sense and fulfills the readers expectations while also being a bit surprising. "
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Interesting update. Thanks
Really appreciate your video and thoughts!
So glad! Thanks for watching & commenting :)
I started Story Grid with the same Podcast you did. I loved listening to Tim's story and revisions. I dropped it for the same reasons. I will check them out again.
I hope their content & such going forward fulfills our expectations here! :) I've checked out a few of their youtube videos as well, some of which seem very practical & useful!
Oh! Are they also re-upping their podcast? That would be amazing!!!
@@andi-roo-pookins I don't think so but I've noticed a renewed focus on practicality in their RUclips videos...I think a lot of this is meant to apply to their Story Grid Guild (their course)
I'm utterly enthralled with story structure, but I like to apply it AFTER I've vomited out a zero draft. Hardcore plotters swear this means I'm wasting time and effort on unnecessary rewrites, but I'm not sure how that math pans out - either way you're putting a ton of work into the project, and the only difference is whether it's on the front end or the back end. ANYWAY... SG has always seemed to me like a wonderful way to ensure your next draft hits all the marks.
Having said all that, I can easily use SG and other story structure formulas to procrastinate on the actual practice of writing. It's much easier to THINK about the process than to actually Do The Work. Which is why I still don't have a completed manuscript LOLOL 😂
Yes!! I'm super with you - I do the most in-depth structure stuff post-first draft and I think you're totally right that it's about where you spend your time. I've also noticed that even if I do a TON of work upfront, writing a first draft can be so overwhelming, a lot of that planning goes out the window. I feel some pressure off, if that makes sense, if I've already written the thing
Totally agree SG is awesome for setting yourself up for success on the second draft!!
And I do the same :) There's this quote I love "reading about writing is not writing"...I think it's all fairly worthless without butt in chair, you know? I'm bad for procrastinating too!!
I learned SG back in 2019/2020 from the book and a friend. Too formulaic for me. Good writing is art, not science. My question to my friend was 'name me one bestselling novel written using SG'. I never got an answer.
That's fair...I actually don't know of any coming out of their guild. I wonder....
I think Shawn Coyne developed it based on some conversations with his best selling authors...anyway, it's definitely not for everyone!
I think there are concrete skills you can learn as a writer, though, which I hope they're focusing in on. I very much question anyone who is like "learn the science of a bestseller". Erm... 😂
Sorry, but not sorry... Tim's announcement left me with a bad taste in my mouth. SG took a lot of people's money and time to learn their system had flaws. They advertised it as being worth the high price because it was unique. Now, they've realized it needs to be more like what's been done for centuries. Um.
That is SUCH a fair point..I'm curious how folks who took their courses before they were revamped think about it - if they're satisfied or regretful or...
I started reading Shawn before the book came out, when it was posts on the blog.
As I'd made my own database for getting an overview of my series, you can see how it was right up my alley.
Then I listened to every ep of the podcast for years...
Then, like a lot of other writers, I tuned out when Shawn started speaking of 'phears' and avatars and other strange unnecessary terminology.
But then, I liked Tim's new RUclips channel where he seemed to be more personal and practical.
But /then/ I signed up to get an advanced reader copy of his book which he said followed all their new ideas, and which Shawn apparently loved - and reading it I could see how it followed their structural guidelines...
But I really did not like it. It brought home to me that their analytical tools are good, their structural ideas for laying out your story ahead of writing it are good - but writing a good novel still comes down to having engaging and entertaining ideas, and then following through with them in a way that makes sense and fulfills the readers expectations while also being a bit surprising. Tim's book was surprising only in that I kept saying "oh no, he's not really going there is he?" in dread, not anticipation. It was ridiculously plotted and the characters were all either unlikable or paper thin.
Given all that, I don't know how much more attention I can pay to anything they have to offer.
Ooo wow back when it was a blog - so you have been tuned into it for a long time!!
I can see how it would appeal - I love the spreadsheet as well...I think your journey with the in/out of it is super interesting & insightful!
I haven't read Tim's book but I think you're highlighting an important aspect - writing/stories/etc. are subjective. They're never not going to be subjective. For a long time they talked about writing a story that "works" and while I think it can be very clear when a story just does NOT work (it's confusing, for example, and readers can't follow), but not every story is going to work for every reader.
Btw I love this framing of what a good story does, sums it up SO well: "writing a good novel still comes down to having engaging and entertaining ideas, and then following through with them in a way that makes sense and fulfills the readers expectations while also being a bit surprising. "