I watched a LOT of It's Me or the Dog back when it was airing. For the most part the show is great but there are definitely some episodes where punishment is used as part of the dog's training routine. I think Victoria has a couple of update videos critiquing situations where she's using outdated methods and then outlines the current best practice, and I really respect that she's willing to hold herself accountable and show how things could've/should've been done better.
That's wonderful to hear. I hadn't ever watched the show before so it was all new to me! There certainly were some parts that would not be advised in this episode too, but I am also mindful of the fact that hindsight is a very powerful tool I'm taking advantage of. I also don't know how the footage was edited together... And what work went on behind the scenes in addition to what was filmed... So I did my best to be kind while including caveats about what would be considered the current standard of care. We all learn and do better once we know better (myself included!) and I have great respect for the people who own up to the past and grow as time goes by. It's not easy to do!
I'm so glad that I found your channel and I am looking forward to watching all your videos! Thank you so much for sharing your insights and experience!
Did you enjoy the video reaction I did of 2 of his videos? He's so wonderful and I always enjoy his in person lectures too! He does really lovely work.
Oh! This is a great question and I don't know how much research we have on the topic... However, I could cover things to consider and when crating might be contra-indicated. Thank you for the video recommendation!
I'm so glad you liked it! Are you meaning the bite levels? As the graphic shows at the bottom right, it's from drsophiayin.com Dr. Yin worked with a terrific artist to create many wonderful graphics about all sorts of important topics (greeting dogs, body language of dogs, children and dogs, etc). I was introduced to them when I completed the Low Stress Handling Silver Certification, and refer people to them often!
@@VetMedCorner Thank you ! Found it! Similar to Ian Dunbars scale. I wasnt sure what the graphic was and wanted to have all the info you were offering. I know a lot about Yin but most of what I have learned is from those whom she influenced and affected so deeply. I have a fear aggressive girl with a bite history. She has made huge strides and we are just starting to get nearer humans. I was curious about the suggestion in the video by Stillwell that some dogs may never be fully trusted. Something I think about a lot....but five years ago I couldnt even have my girl near a tree without her attacking it and now that is not even a concern. I watch her closely and she will let me know how far she can go . I just discovered your page and you led me into a rabbit hole ! :-) Thank you! I find it so hard to get informed info on pets as so much seems rife with magical thinking, especially regarding behaviour.. Really love what you are doing!!!!! You said you were open to suggestions. I apologize if you have already explored these topics as I am just getting into your offerings, but I would love to learn more about the claims regarding probiotics for behaviour and even to accompany antibiotics, as I see such conflicting information. Also I am now reading many articles saying there is no evidence of increased aggression in some dogs on prozac. We had a very clear anecdotal experience with this. I wondered if there was any research on this or numbers. I always encourage people with fearful dogs to try it in spite of our experience. I have seen so much success with it. Sorry if I am rambling. Im a bit giddy to your trove trove of clear information!
Your comment has just made my day 💜 thank you and welcome to VMC! I am so glad that you are caring for your dog so well. I'm proud of you both for all the progress 🙌 I do agree with the notion that some dogs will not be able to be fully trusted due to their history, but with that said, it doesn't mean those dogs can't have a good quality of life (in some situations... It depends on the home situation and resources/skills/etc of the caregivers and so on, of course). Their life may need to be carefully curated by considering things like walking at 4am when no one else is around... Or keeping them as a sole pet in a household without human children... But there are things we can do while we work on behaviour modification to help maintain the human-animal bond while also keeping the safety of other animals and people a top priority. It's not simple, but in many cases it can be possible. I love your suggestions! I haven't covered the topic of probiotics or behaviour modification prescription medications yet so I will add them both to my list!
@Vet Med Corner I'm so glad! Your work made my day, so we are even 😊. Our lives have been about management for so long now its second nature. When my then-vet saw my terrified 9 month old new dog in the car looking like a Manga wolf and immediately suggested euthanasia I was determined to do what I could for this girl. Thus my cabin on the behaviour-geek train. Twigs previous people had left her in a cloth muzzle for extended periods when she was teething, I believe this was seriously traumatic as well as messing with her bite control. They aldo used a chole chain and talked about dominance. When she has biten she always sought loose clothing but shorts and yoga pants resulted in punctures. It's been years since any bite has occurred. Her list of triggers used to be more then i could list in a sitting, but now its humans and dogs. She can walk happily on the opposite side of the road from a stranger now and even a dog. Eye contact and proximity are everything. She is brilliant ( even among my other Border collies) and sensitive and, damaged. I am trying to learn more about the canine applications of human PTSD work. Thank you for your thoughts and kind words and the wonderful work you are doing. So much media out there, not enough is accessible science communication.
I am so very sad that Twig went through so many truly awful experiences with her previous people. She's so lucky to have such a dedicated human like you caring for her now. What you said about there being so much out there, but not much of it being research based best practices, is *exactly* why I started VMC. I'm passionate about getting accessible info out there for people so that they can care better for their critters. For years I kept hoping someone else would do it (as I'm quite introverted and have had to learn everything about video editing and so on from scratch), but finally decided to take the plunge! It's been a steeeeep learning curve, but I keep working on it!
Welcome to VMC! I'm so glad that you found me!!! I will definitely add Bondi Vet to my list for a future reaction/analysis video. Thank you so much for the suggestion!
On-video dog trainers are making dramatic TV out of their training, and click-bait video titles, which can be off-putting, but I still learn from positive techniques. I think Victoria Stillwell is excellent and I'm glad you showed one of her episodes, with your analysis. Zak George is another positive trainer - probably the most popular on youtube - so that would be a good one to hear your analysis of an episode. Try to skip the sponsorship and advertising to get to the meat!
Thank you so much for your suggestion! I will keep Zak George on my list for a future video. Good to know that there will be ads to skip, I'm guessing that means he has a variety of sponsors? It's always a fine line to balance in order to get people to click on a thumbnail, while also giving a fair representation of the video. I really intensely dislike click bait!!!
@@VetMedCorner Not ads to skip but Zak advertises pet foods and toys from his sponsors at the beginning of his videos. Understandable as there are different ways of making a living as a dog trainer, but annoying all the same. All dog trainers earn their living and anyone on screen is trying to gain viewers. I think Zak's free puppy training course is a great start for dog owners and it was a good refresher for me when re-starting with a pup - 11 years goes by and it's a shock to the sytem to have a little dynamo after an old, much-loved sweetheart leaves you. Zak is wholly committed to positive training and has several videos re the science, the veterinarians' view and rebuttal of the 'balanced' and punitive approaches. I have two reservations re the missionary approach re positive dog training (of which I am supportive! ) 1) Veterinarians preach one thing and practise another. A visit to the vet is generally governed by time constraint and whatever gets your dog in, treated and out is what happens. The reality is that few vets take the time or have the expertise or even option! to use positive methods with a scared / hurt dog. I live in France and have a wonderful vet but have had terrible experiences with dogs at vets. Most vets are NOT trainers and do not help with dogs' behaviour problems - sometimes, they create them. This makes it hypocritical for vets to give behavioural advice and most owners are sceptical about its value. You are the exception, not the norm. 2) Creating a gulf between real world experience where dog owners need fast solutions to problems that they can't afford financially or time-wise,and the positive ideal, leads to owners walking away from positive training. Maybe there is room for more understanding of the practical difficulties dog-owners face. And I say this as someone who is 67, has been owned by 12 dogs, mostly Great Pyrenees, some from puppies and some rescued from shelters, who has seen so many fashions in dog training come and go, and who has worked with some great dog trainers, who were ahead of their time. Please keep on doing your videos so we can work to eliminate what I call 'training by survival' - dogs who don't figure it out themselves, die.
I very much understand that everyone needs money in order to survive - i understand why RUclips channels do things like what you are describing. Thanks for the heads up. Yes, this entire situation is a very complicated one and I hope that as we keep learning better that we keep doing better by the animals we care for. They deserve it.
I wonder what Victoria Stilwell thinks about Augusto. Her techniques somehow make me feel better than Augusto's magic hands. Taking time for dogs to rehabilitate not just with one touch. After the trainers go off somewhere else, it is all up to the owners from there on out.
Her training is based on ethical, research based principles and does actually address the underlying cause of the behaviour so it will be successful. None of that can be said for how Augusto abuses dogs.
@@VetMedCorner Is there any solid concrete evidence Augusto is abusing dogs? What has happened to the dogs in the aftermath? Did they survive the euthanisia list? So far animal control officers have been watching his every move, and haven't concluded any abuse.
Feel free to use the punishment resource and information linked in the description of that video to learn why his treatment of animals is unethical, cruel and entirely unnecessary.
@@ryanwitwickifaddegon4291 because when Animal control officers show up he dampen downs the abuse. Its also a fallacy that the dogs he puts hands on are on a Euth list. The concrete evidence that ADO abuses dogs in the video content he himself puts out. You see a dog in this video that some might say would be on a "euth list".. yet it wasn't... and they never used the bite history as an excuse to choke, hang, intimidate, scare or jab it.
Your comment just made my day! Thank you so much. The t-shirt is one of my favs, a friend gifted it to me for my birthday last year. I hope your weekend is a good one 💜
For Olivia I am wondering how ethical it is to keep her in a situation where she is constantly stressed out. Obviously it will be impossible to rehome her. And I know this is someone’s beloved pet. But at what point would you start thinking about behavioral euthanasia?
With my dog i use both positive and negative reinforcement not nessesarily punishment. If my dog doesnt react to a dog on leash i reward him but if he does i curb him, wait for the stimulus to go away and use the look at me command and ofc im stepping on the leash for safety reasons and put him in a sit. Sometimed i walk around a car or go accross the street. Me not allowing him to get to another dog is the negative reinforcement. When meeting others on leash i keep those interactions to a basic sniff and keep going ofc rewarding him for good behavior. Negative reinforcement is just giving the dog the opposite of what it wants when misbehaving and positive reinforcement is giving the dog what it wants or what motivates it is good positive reinforcement. It can be a treat or toy or whatever. But lots of people need to know their dogs threshold and tollerance level with other dogs and to watch for nervous or aggressive behaviours to n their own dogs as well as others. My dog who is very well socialized tried to get a malamute to play with him at the park but the malamute gave a lip curl and i called my dog over and he came over right away and i rewarded him with some playtime.
No, what you are describing is not correct. You need to watch the series linked in the video description to properly understand the quadrants of behavior modification. You also need to change what you are doing, so find a positive reinforcement trainer to help you.
I watched a LOT of It's Me or the Dog back when it was airing. For the most part the show is great but there are definitely some episodes where punishment is used as part of the dog's training routine. I think Victoria has a couple of update videos critiquing situations where she's using outdated methods and then outlines the current best practice, and I really respect that she's willing to hold herself accountable and show how things could've/should've been done better.
That's wonderful to hear. I hadn't ever watched the show before so it was all new to me!
There certainly were some parts that would not be advised in this episode too, but I am also mindful of the fact that hindsight is a very powerful tool I'm taking advantage of. I also don't know how the footage was edited together... And what work went on behind the scenes in addition to what was filmed... So I did my best to be kind while including caveats about what would be considered the current standard of care.
We all learn and do better once we know better (myself included!) and I have great respect for the people who own up to the past and grow as time goes by. It's not easy to do!
I'm so glad that I found your channel and I am looking forward to watching all your videos! Thank you so much for sharing your insights and experience!
Welcome to VMC!!! 😻
This was a nice series. Thank you for putting in the work :)
You are wonderfully kind - thank you for saying this. I appreciate it very much.
I've recently found Chirag Patel. I was positively impressed
Did you enjoy the video reaction I did of 2 of his videos? He's so wonderful and I always enjoy his in person lectures too! He does really lovely work.
Yes. Now I remember that it was you that was through your channel that I discovered Patel. And then I saw one of his lectures and went wow
That makes me so happy!!! That's the entire point of this series 🙌
Can you make a video on crate training? Is it good, harmful or cruel to use crates?
Oh! This is a great question and I don't know how much research we have on the topic... However, I could cover things to consider and when crating might be contra-indicated. Thank you for the video recommendation!
Thank you for this! I really loved it. Where can I more closely see the graphic that flashed at the 5:30 mark?
I'm so glad you liked it! Are you meaning the bite levels? As the graphic shows at the bottom right, it's from drsophiayin.com
Dr. Yin worked with a terrific artist to create many wonderful graphics about all sorts of important topics (greeting dogs, body language of dogs, children and dogs, etc). I was introduced to them when I completed the Low Stress Handling Silver Certification, and refer people to them often!
@@VetMedCorner Thank you ! Found it! Similar to Ian Dunbars scale. I wasnt sure what the graphic was and wanted to have all the info you were offering. I know a lot about Yin but most of what I have learned is from those whom she influenced and affected so deeply. I have a fear aggressive girl with a bite history. She has made huge strides and we are just starting to get nearer humans. I was curious about the suggestion in the video by Stillwell that some dogs may never be fully trusted. Something I think about a lot....but five years ago I couldnt even have my girl near a tree without her attacking it and now that is not even a concern. I watch her closely and she will let me know how far she can go . I just discovered your page and you led me into a rabbit hole ! :-) Thank you! I find it so hard to get informed info on pets as so much seems rife with magical thinking, especially regarding behaviour.. Really love what you are doing!!!!! You said you were open to suggestions. I apologize if you have already explored these topics as I am just getting into your offerings, but I would love to learn more about the claims regarding probiotics for behaviour and even to accompany antibiotics, as I see such conflicting information. Also I am now reading many articles saying there is no evidence of increased aggression in some dogs on prozac. We had a very clear anecdotal experience with this. I wondered if there was any research on this or numbers. I always encourage people with fearful dogs to try it in spite of our experience. I have seen so much success with it. Sorry if I am rambling. Im a bit giddy to your trove trove of clear information!
Your comment has just made my day 💜 thank you and welcome to VMC!
I am so glad that you are caring for your dog so well. I'm proud of you both for all the progress 🙌
I do agree with the notion that some dogs will not be able to be fully trusted due to their history, but with that said, it doesn't mean those dogs can't have a good quality of life (in some situations... It depends on the home situation and resources/skills/etc of the caregivers and so on, of course). Their life may need to be carefully curated by considering things like walking at 4am when no one else is around... Or keeping them as a sole pet in a household without human children... But there are things we can do while we work on behaviour modification to help maintain the human-animal bond while also keeping the safety of other animals and people a top priority. It's not simple, but in many cases it can be possible.
I love your suggestions! I haven't covered the topic of probiotics or behaviour modification prescription medications yet so I will add them both to my list!
@Vet Med Corner I'm so glad! Your work made my day, so we are even 😊.
Our lives have been about management for so long now its second nature. When my then-vet saw my terrified 9 month old new dog in the car looking like a Manga wolf and immediately suggested euthanasia I was determined to do what I could for this girl. Thus my cabin on the behaviour-geek train. Twigs previous people had left her in a cloth muzzle for extended periods when she was teething, I believe this was seriously traumatic as well as messing with her bite control. They aldo used a chole chain and talked about dominance. When she has biten she always sought loose clothing but shorts and yoga pants resulted in punctures. It's been years since any bite has occurred. Her list of triggers used to be more then i could list in a sitting, but now its humans and dogs. She can walk happily on the opposite side of the road from a stranger now and even a dog. Eye contact and proximity are everything. She is brilliant ( even among my other Border collies) and sensitive and, damaged. I am trying to learn more about the canine applications of human PTSD work.
Thank you for your thoughts and kind words and the wonderful work you are doing. So much media out there, not enough is accessible science communication.
I am so very sad that Twig went through so many truly awful experiences with her previous people. She's so lucky to have such a dedicated human like you caring for her now.
What you said about there being so much out there, but not much of it being research based best practices, is *exactly* why I started VMC. I'm passionate about getting accessible info out there for people so that they can care better for their critters.
For years I kept hoping someone else would do it (as I'm quite introverted and have had to learn everything about video editing and so on from scratch), but finally decided to take the plunge! It's been a steeeeep learning curve, but I keep working on it!
First video I have seen of yours. Really enjoyed it and subscribed! Would love to see you react to more victoria or maybe bondi vet 😄
Welcome to VMC! I'm so glad that you found me!!! I will definitely add Bondi Vet to my list for a future reaction/analysis video. Thank you so much for the suggestion!
On-video dog trainers are making dramatic TV out of their training, and click-bait video titles, which can be off-putting, but I still learn from positive techniques. I think Victoria Stillwell is excellent and I'm glad you showed one of her episodes, with your analysis. Zak George is another positive trainer - probably the most popular on youtube - so that would be a good one to hear your analysis of an episode. Try to skip the sponsorship and advertising to get to the meat!
Thank you so much for your suggestion! I will keep Zak George on my list for a future video. Good to know that there will be ads to skip, I'm guessing that means he has a variety of sponsors?
It's always a fine line to balance in order to get people to click on a thumbnail, while also giving a fair representation of the video. I really intensely dislike click bait!!!
@@VetMedCorner Not ads to skip but Zak advertises pet foods and toys from his sponsors at the beginning of his videos. Understandable as there are different ways of making a living as a dog trainer, but annoying all the same. All dog trainers earn their living and anyone on screen is trying to gain viewers. I think Zak's free puppy training course is a great start for dog owners and it was a good refresher for me when re-starting with a pup - 11 years goes by and it's a shock to the sytem to have a little dynamo after an old, much-loved sweetheart leaves you. Zak is wholly committed to positive training and has several videos re the science, the veterinarians' view and rebuttal of the 'balanced' and punitive approaches.
I have two reservations re the missionary approach re positive dog training (of which I am supportive! )
1) Veterinarians preach one thing and practise another. A visit to the vet is generally governed by time constraint and whatever gets your dog in, treated and out is what happens. The reality is that few vets take the time or have the expertise or even option! to use positive methods with a scared / hurt dog. I live in France and have a wonderful vet but have had terrible experiences with dogs at vets. Most vets are NOT trainers and do not help with dogs' behaviour problems - sometimes, they create them. This makes it hypocritical for vets to give behavioural advice and most owners are sceptical about its value. You are the exception, not the norm.
2) Creating a gulf between real world experience where dog owners need fast solutions to problems that they can't afford financially or time-wise,and the positive ideal, leads to owners walking away from positive training. Maybe there is room for more understanding of the practical difficulties dog-owners face.
And I say this as someone who is 67, has been owned by 12 dogs, mostly Great Pyrenees, some from puppies and some rescued from shelters, who has seen so many fashions in dog training come and go, and who has worked with some great dog trainers, who were ahead of their time.
Please keep on doing your videos so we can work to eliminate what I call 'training by survival' - dogs who don't figure it out themselves, die.
I very much understand that everyone needs money in order to survive - i understand why RUclips channels do things like what you are describing. Thanks for the heads up.
Yes, this entire situation is a very complicated one and I hope that as we keep learning better that we keep doing better by the animals we care for. They deserve it.
I wonder what Victoria Stilwell thinks about Augusto. Her techniques somehow make me feel better than Augusto's magic hands. Taking time for dogs to rehabilitate not just with one touch. After the trainers go off somewhere else, it is all up to the owners from there on out.
Her training is based on ethical, research based principles and does actually address the underlying cause of the behaviour so it will be successful.
None of that can be said for how Augusto abuses dogs.
@@VetMedCorner Is there any solid concrete evidence Augusto is abusing dogs? What has happened to the dogs in the aftermath? Did they survive the euthanisia list? So far animal control officers have been watching his every move, and haven't concluded any abuse.
Feel free to use the punishment resource and information linked in the description of that video to learn why his treatment of animals is unethical, cruel and entirely unnecessary.
@@VetMedCorner Sure thing.
@@ryanwitwickifaddegon4291 because when Animal control officers show up he dampen downs the abuse. Its also a fallacy that the dogs he puts hands on are on a Euth list.
The concrete evidence that ADO abuses dogs in the video content he himself puts out.
You see a dog in this video that some might say would be on a "euth list".. yet it wasn't... and they never used the bite history as an excuse to choke, hang, intimidate, scare or jab it.
Thank-you for this I love sharing your behaviour videos, and your t-shirt is awesome too! :)
Your comment just made my day! Thank you so much. The t-shirt is one of my favs, a friend gifted it to me for my birthday last year. I hope your weekend is a good one 💜
@@VetMedCorner you have good friends!
For Olivia I am wondering how ethical it is to keep her in a situation where she is constantly stressed out. Obviously it will be impossible to rehome her. And I know this is someone’s beloved pet. But at what point would you start thinking about behavioral euthanasia?
There are quality of life assessment tools that should be used regularly, for all cats and dogs!
Victoria Stilwell is a good dog trainer but i don't agree with everything she does
That's very similar to how I feel - however I have to give huge props to her for learning and continuing to do better over time/as she learns.
With my dog i use both positive and negative reinforcement not nessesarily punishment. If my dog doesnt react to a dog on leash i reward him but if he does i curb him, wait for the stimulus to go away and use the look at me command and ofc im stepping on the leash for safety reasons and put him in a sit. Sometimed i walk around a car or go accross the street. Me not allowing him to get to another dog is the negative reinforcement. When meeting others on leash i keep those interactions to a basic sniff and keep going ofc rewarding him for good behavior. Negative reinforcement is just giving the dog the opposite of what it wants when misbehaving and positive reinforcement is giving the dog what it wants or what motivates it is good positive reinforcement. It can be a treat or toy or whatever. But lots of people need to know their dogs threshold and tollerance level with other dogs and to watch for nervous or aggressive behaviours to n their own dogs as well as others. My dog who is very well socialized tried to get a malamute to play with him at the park but the malamute gave a lip curl and i called my dog over and he came over right away and i rewarded him with some playtime.
No, what you are describing is not correct. You need to watch the series linked in the video description to properly understand the quadrants of behavior modification.
You also need to change what you are doing, so find a positive reinforcement trainer to help you.