There was a time when honest men, looked deeply into history to defend the truth of the bible. This is one of those offerings. Maybe this is why the Lord's church is being turned on by society, we tell the truth and the darkness cannot abide, so it attacks. They hated our Lord before they hated us, are we really surprised. Preach on Aaron. Love you brother, C.J.
Excellent teaching, Aaron. The scriptures are very plain that we have free will to make decisions. Joshua exhorted the people to "choose this day whom ye will serve". This is one of many verses that show we can choose how we live and who we serve. Calvinist teachings are simply a way to escape accountability and hard decisions. We need but look around at the false teachings that we are inundated with to understand that God is indeed sending "strong delusion that they should believe a lie".
Aaron, I appreciate your thoroughness on this subject. It has helped me immensely with talking to my mother and her church that teach Calvinist points, though are so close on so many other points. All are dear friends and I want to learn all I can about this subject so I can talk to them all at every opportunity. Can't wait for your book! Let me know when a pre-order is available, I would get at least 10 lol
Hey brother Aaron, I dont know if you have seen the book A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, but it is WONDERFUL!!! It is full of ante nician church writings based alphabetically in over 700 topics. I highly recommend it if you havent seen it!!!
There's an Anabaptist teacher. He was first a Jehovah's Witness, then a Protestant, called David Bercot of Scroll Publishing. He focuses a lot on the early Christian writings & does a great job too. He has many audio & videos on RUclips, and wrote many great books concerning what they believed on different topics. He says we have to be spiritually & intellectually honest & uses the Anti-Nicene writings as a commentary. He is without question worth checking out!
1. John Gill, Cause of God and Truth gives numerous quotes of the ECF that agree with Reformed theology. 2. The NT teaches you must be born of God (it is passive in the Greek). Hence, believing is evidence that you have been born of God. 3. The ECF also maningade errors and had no reason to officially put their beliefs out there for a council or vote on doctrine. I argue against anything by quoting the ECF. 4. They erred by simply quoting the NT and rarely broke down the meaning of words ex 1 John 2*2 and whole world. 5. They were oriented toward Greek philosophy to the neglect of First-Century Hebraisms which led to them making errors in Paul's eschatological time table etc...
Also, about 19:00, you mischaracterize RC’s position. He did not claim that prior to Augustine, the doctrines of grace we clearly understood by the church. Clearly taught in Scripture… sure. But clearly understood by the fathers, no.
At minute 18:00 you completely butcher the purpose of Augustine’s quote: “Grant what Thou dost command, and command what Thou wilt. Thou dost command continence. And when I knew it, as it is said, that no one could be continent unless God gave it, even this was a point of wisdom, to know whose gift it was.” Confessions 10:29 Augustine is not hear teaching that all things happen as God commands them, although Augustine might well have taught that. Augustine was teaching that for us to do as God command, requires God to give us the grace to do it. Our goodness DEPENDS on God granting us from His goodness. Pelagius objected to that.
Did you listen to what he said? He literally talks after this about Christians not refraining from living immoral lives. He understood the quote exactly. 18:31 "No one has the choice to turn away from sin. And Pelagius says this is why Christians are living such immoral lives, they don't think they have to withdraw from sin" That's what continence means. To restrain. If God must grant continence, then there is nothing they can do to withdraw from sin. Aaron nowhere said that this is a quote about exhaustive determinism.
I know you want to be seen as unbiased… but characterizing the doctrines of Grace at 19:30 as “God sends some people to hell and there is nothing they can do about it”… is pretty absurd. The Doctrines of Grace simply teach that everything good that we can do and receive depend entirely on God’s grace. It is a recognition, that to enter Heaven and dwell with God forever depends on God’s grace.
@@TKK0812 - The doctrines of grace are not: “God sends people to hell and there is nothing they can do about it.” That misses the fundamental point, ie that if we are to receive ANYTHING good, it is by grace.
@@brentonstanfield5198 So you don’t like it but it’s not actually untrue, correct? God does send people to hell who can’t do anything about it under your worldview? Aaron didn’t say “this is the totality of what the doctrines of grace teach and nothing more!”.
The Calvinist (Gnostic) has cleverly inserted a different view of Christ's work on the cross. They promote a view that Jesus was punished by the Father and that the trinity (godhead) was divided during that time. The early church did not teach this concept. Consider that paying a debt is not equal to forgiving a debt. People will ask, how could God forgive unless he paid? That is cognitive dissonance at its best. This new understanding is why Christians don't see a need to be free from sin and bondage to darkness. Instead they see a transaction of debt being paid and therfore nothing is left to be paid or forgiven. This is not the biblical concept nor is it the early church view until after Augustianian and definitely Calvin and Luther.
Ante-Nicene fathers didn't really deal with those topics, no one did until Augustine, but yes, Augustine taught most Reformed doctrines. My comment was more directed toward the caricature he portrayed of Calvinism, it was Leighton Flowers-eque. You don't have to hold to the Doctrines of Grace to be a Christian, but at least accurately represent them. @@TKK0812
@@joshlumley2460 Man, Leighton Flowers lives rent free in the head of every Calvinist. Calvinists need to understand that we're not required to represent your doctrine as you choose. There is a difference between saying "calvinists believe X" and "calvinism leads to X". We understand calvinists do not believe God is the author of sin, but we're not required to represent calvinism as such because calvinism makes God the author of sin. We can admit calvinists don't hold to this, but we don't need to represent the doctrine as coherent, because it isn't.
Leighton Flowers devotes his whole life to denigrating believers through strawmen. I would challenge you or anyone who comes across to read "Doctrines of Grace" by Boice before claiming it isn't coherent. You can disagree, but arguments like that make it sound like you don't actually understand it.@@TKK0812
@@joshlumley2460 Anyone who says the Ante-Nicean fathers didn’t address the issue hasn’t read the ante-nicean fathers. The idea they didn’t deal with the issue is just a Calvinistic tactic to mislead. They are extremely clear about these issues as the gnostics taught similar things then as Calvinists teach now. Some of the early guys even give lists of Scriptures gnostics use and refute them and the list they refute reads like a calvinist sermon on Pharoah, Ezekiel 11,36, Romans 9, etc. To make it easy for anyone, read free online Origen De Pricipiis (First Principles), Book 3 Ch. 1 - “on the freedom of the will, with an explanation and interpretation of those statements of scripture which appear to nullify it.” Book 3.1.7 he says essentially that these passages are used by some to eliminate free will. In Book 3.1.8 he begins to refute them (Gnostic teaching), “8. Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh-that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost; and Pharaoh, they say, as being of a ruined nature, is therefore hardened by God” Read it for yourself. It’s crystal clear. One can choose to believe Calvinism is right, but they must then take the position all the early guys for hundreds of years were wrong since Augustine’s teachings are nothing like those before him on these issues.
Your characterizations of Calvinist positions and your mischaracterizations of the quotes provided is unfortunate. My hope is that God changes your heart to seek truth instead of to prove your own intelligence.
There was a time when honest men, looked deeply into history to defend the truth of the bible. This is one of those offerings. Maybe this is why the Lord's church is being turned on by society, we tell the truth and the darkness cannot abide, so it attacks. They hated our Lord before they hated us, are we really surprised. Preach on Aaron. Love you brother, C.J.
Gwendolyn Thomas here…great lesson Aaron! Thanks ❤
Excellent teaching, Aaron. The scriptures are very plain that we have free will to make decisions. Joshua exhorted the people to "choose this day whom ye will serve". This is one of many verses that show we can choose how we live and who we serve. Calvinist teachings are simply a way to escape accountability and hard decisions. We need but look around at the false teachings that we are inundated with to understand that God is indeed sending "strong delusion that they should believe a lie".
Aaron, thank you for this presentation. God speed.
Aaron, I appreciate your thoroughness on this subject. It has helped me immensely with talking to my mother and her church that teach Calvinist points, though are so close on so many other points. All are dear friends and I want to learn all I can about this subject so I can talk to them all at every opportunity. Can't wait for your book! Let me know when a pre-order is available, I would get at least 10 lol
Thank you Aaron for this video. It's hard to understand how some people can't get the meaning of ' whosoever '!
Part 2 man!
Bring it!
Thanks for your work very beneficial
Hey brother Aaron, I dont know if you have seen the book A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, but it is WONDERFUL!!! It is full of ante nician church writings based alphabetically in over 700 topics. I highly recommend it if you havent seen it!!!
Such a good & edifying examination. How about this book you mentioned you are writing?
There's an Anabaptist teacher. He was first a Jehovah's Witness, then a Protestant, called David Bercot of Scroll Publishing. He focuses a lot on the early Christian writings & does a great job too. He has many audio & videos on RUclips, and wrote many great books concerning what they believed on different topics. He says we have to be spiritually & intellectually honest & uses the Anti-Nicene writings as a commentary. He is without question worth checking out!
Yes I am aware of him! His book is good as well to know where to start reading in different early texts.
Interesting stuff, is there a part 2 to this?
1. John Gill, Cause of God and Truth gives numerous quotes of the ECF that agree with Reformed theology.
2. The NT teaches you must be born of God (it is passive in the Greek). Hence, believing is evidence that you have been born of God.
3. The ECF also maningade errors and had no reason to officially put their beliefs out there for a council or vote on doctrine. I argue against anything by quoting the ECF.
4. They erred by simply quoting the NT and rarely broke down the meaning of words ex 1 John 2*2 and whole world.
5. They were oriented toward Greek philosophy to the neglect of First-Century Hebraisms which led to them making errors in Paul's eschatological time table etc...
Also, about 19:00, you mischaracterize RC’s position. He did not claim that prior to Augustine, the doctrines of grace we clearly understood by the church. Clearly taught in Scripture… sure. But clearly understood by the fathers, no.
At minute 18:00 you completely butcher the purpose of Augustine’s quote:
“Grant what Thou dost command, and command what Thou wilt. Thou dost command continence. And when I knew it, as it is said, that no one could be continent unless God gave it, even this was a point of wisdom, to know whose gift it was.”
Confessions 10:29
Augustine is not hear teaching that all things happen as God commands them, although Augustine might well have taught that. Augustine was teaching that for us to do as God command, requires God to give us the grace to do it. Our goodness DEPENDS on God granting us from His goodness. Pelagius objected to that.
Did you listen to what he said? He literally talks after this about Christians not refraining from living immoral lives. He understood the quote exactly.
18:31 "No one has the choice to turn away from sin. And Pelagius says this is why Christians are living such immoral lives, they don't think they have to withdraw from sin"
That's what continence means. To restrain. If God must grant continence, then there is nothing they can do to withdraw from sin.
Aaron nowhere said that this is a quote about exhaustive determinism.
@@TKK0812 - What are you trying to say? I don’t understand your objection.
freewill within God's parameters is biblical.
you cannot choose not to breath and live, for example.
Watch it and weep……..
I know you want to be seen as unbiased… but characterizing the doctrines of Grace at 19:30 as “God sends some people to hell and there is nothing they can do about it”… is pretty absurd. The Doctrines of Grace simply teach that everything good that we can do and receive depend entirely on God’s grace. It is a recognition, that to enter Heaven and dwell with God forever depends on God’s grace.
Is what he said incorrect or do you just not like the way he said it?
@@TKK0812 - The doctrines of grace are not: “God sends people to hell and there is nothing they can do about it.” That misses the fundamental point, ie that if we are to receive ANYTHING good, it is by grace.
@@brentonstanfield5198 So you don’t like it but it’s not actually untrue, correct? God does send people to hell who can’t do anything about it under your worldview? Aaron didn’t say “this is the totality of what the doctrines of grace teach and nothing more!”.
The Calvinist (Gnostic) has cleverly inserted a different view of Christ's work on the cross.
They promote a view that Jesus was punished by the Father and that the trinity (godhead) was divided during that time.
The early church did not teach this concept.
Consider that paying a debt is not equal to forgiving a debt.
People will ask, how could God forgive unless he paid? That is cognitive dissonance at its best.
This new understanding is why Christians don't see a need to be free from sin and bondage to darkness. Instead they see a transaction of debt being paid and therfore nothing is left to be paid or forgiven. This is not the biblical concept nor is it the early church view until after Augustianian and definitely Calvin and Luther.
Appreciate this comment! Thanks for taking the time!
Church of Christ synergism
Yeah, like most anti-Calvinists, this is pretty uncompelling and he doesn't accurately represent Augustinian/Calvinist thought.
Well you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Are you saying the ante-Nicene fathers did teach determinism/reformed doctrines?
Ante-Nicene fathers didn't really deal with those topics, no one did until Augustine, but yes, Augustine taught most Reformed doctrines. My comment was more directed toward the caricature he portrayed of Calvinism, it was Leighton Flowers-eque. You don't have to hold to the Doctrines of Grace to be a Christian, but at least accurately represent them. @@TKK0812
@@joshlumley2460 Man, Leighton Flowers lives rent free in the head of every Calvinist.
Calvinists need to understand that we're not required to represent your doctrine as you choose. There is a difference between saying "calvinists believe X" and "calvinism leads to X". We understand calvinists do not believe God is the author of sin, but we're not required to represent calvinism as such because calvinism makes God the author of sin. We can admit calvinists don't hold to this, but we don't need to represent the doctrine as coherent, because it isn't.
Leighton Flowers devotes his whole life to denigrating believers through strawmen.
I would challenge you or anyone who comes across to read "Doctrines of Grace" by Boice before claiming it isn't coherent. You can disagree, but arguments like that make it sound like you don't actually understand it.@@TKK0812
@@joshlumley2460 Anyone who says the Ante-Nicean fathers didn’t address the issue hasn’t read the ante-nicean fathers. The idea they didn’t deal with the issue is just a Calvinistic tactic to mislead. They are extremely clear about these issues as the gnostics taught similar things then as Calvinists teach now. Some of the early guys even give lists of Scriptures gnostics use and refute them and the list they refute reads like a calvinist sermon on Pharoah, Ezekiel 11,36, Romans 9, etc.
To make it easy for anyone, read free online Origen De Pricipiis (First Principles), Book 3 Ch. 1 - “on the freedom of the will, with an explanation and interpretation of those statements of scripture which appear to nullify it.”
Book 3.1.7 he says essentially that these passages are used by some to eliminate free will. In Book 3.1.8 he begins to refute them (Gnostic teaching),
“8. Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh-that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost; and Pharaoh, they say, as being of a ruined nature, is therefore hardened by God”
Read it for yourself. It’s crystal clear.
One can choose to believe Calvinism is right, but they must then take the position all the early guys for hundreds of years were wrong since Augustine’s teachings are nothing like those before him on these issues.
Your characterizations of Calvinist positions and your mischaracterizations of the quotes provided is unfortunate. My hope is that God changes your heart to seek truth instead of to prove your own intelligence.
What's unfortunate is that you aren't willing to accept the clear truth.
@@Dave-pd6hi - The truth is the only thing that I want, wherever that leads.
@brentonstanfield5198 then actually listen to what Aaron is saying, it's pretty clear.
ugh i used to know him. had no idea he went full on Kirk cameron and became a religious looney