QA Panel: Conquering and to Conquer | Baucham, Beeke, Miller, & Waldron | CovCon'24
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- The following message was delivered at the 2024 Covenant Conference, hosted by CBTS. The theme for the 2024 conference was Conquering and to Conquer: An Eschatology of Victory.
To learn more about CBTS, visit CBTSeminary.org
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The nations will be won to Christ. The great commission can not fail. Postmill is true optimism. Christ didn’t give us that commission and say He’d be with us in it (until the end of the age) for it to fail.
Did you mean PostTrib? More humans will die during the 7 year tribulation than any other time in human history. The most horrible famine imaginable will consume the earth. Meteors, earthquakes, hail storms, and demons loosed on the earth and far worse than that!
Then, the dead who go through the great tribulation that have died (not the martyrs who caught on late) but the wicked recipients of the wrath of God, are then resurrected into damnation. Satan would love nothing more than to convince the body of Christ, to dump Jesus, He’s confused, His wrath is for every body.
☝🏼
"It is accurate to speak of Amillennialism as Eschatology of Victory. For Amillennialism is a form of inaugurated eschatology. The belief that Christ has already won the victory and initiated the last days though the kingdom of glory has not yet arrived. What could be more optimistic than to declare that Christ has bound the strong man and is rescuing people from his Kingdom (Matthew 12:29). What could be more of a victory than Jesus to announce as His death and resurrection drew near that "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself” (John 12:31-32 ESV). Amillennialist proclaim with complete biblical consistency that the Kingdom has come and therefore let us repent and believe and engage in the mission to the nations."
Ima post mill and study theonomy even harder. And it doesn't slow my evangelism down even a little. We are sinners that need Saviour. And we are a society that would be most God honoring and prosperous with theonomy.
If the strongman is bound and his house is being plundered, how is his kingdom growing? Postmillennialism makes much more sense.
The strongman is Satan. He is bound by God's sovereign decree (as everything is. See Job 38:11) . The Bible says that the whole world lies in the lap of the devil. His goods are the lost souls of men. That is what is plundered by Christ using us through the means of the Great Commission.
The strongman is Satan. He is bound by God's sovereign decree (as everything is. See Job 38:11) . The Bible says that the whole world lies in the lap of the devil. His goods are the lost souls of men. That is what is plundered by Christ using us through the means of the Great Commission. But we're not "stacking up" Christians here on earth in a warehouse. They die and go to heaven. New people are being born all of the time. Lost people. All of them. If every person on earth right now were a believer, evangelism still wouldn't be able to keep up with the birth rate.
When I share the Gospel I win. Because I've been obedient, rather than disobedient. By the power of the Holy Spirit I have overcome fear or laziness. Whether the person accepts Christ, or is hardened, or the seed is merely planted is up to God. It's up to the work of the Holy Spirit. Credit or achievement was never mine - even when they believe. So I can literally say, "I led someone to Christ... but they rejected Him." I take focus off of self and the notion of personal achievement. It keeps me humble. I keep my eyes on Christ. The victory has already been won - by Christ. God is sovereign. The world and the church are exactly as he has ordained. That is true optimism. And it fires me up to share my faith! 😊
A in Amil = Almost postmil lol
Sometimes, sadly, like Owen Strachan, they’re almost Premil no matter how much they may claim optimistic Amil
The Greek word for a thousand is chilioi , it is a plural word . A thousand is singular. Christ kingdom has been since Jesus said it is FINISHED when he died on the cross. After the resurrection he has since been gathering his sheep the ELECT OF GOD.
Excellent observation on Chilioi. It never even crossed my mind.
Postmillennialism is the most hopeful AND the correct biblical eschatology.
Mr. Beeke, You misquoted Rev 12:9, 9So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Satan and his angels are thrown out of Heaven not be able to accuse the brethren. He has no more access. Then, Satan and his angels are coming for Israel since the church is in Heaven. Mr. Beeke you did not let scripture interpret scripture.
Us people are the church. God is the head and we're the body❤
They completely misrepresented Bahnsen’s position on theonomy towards the end. Kinda sad considering how smart they are.
They didn’t even completely explain why theonomy is bad. They just said, “it’s bad because theonomists don’t always agree with each other.” Ok. So what? Y’all are Amils and don’t always agree with each other. Absolutely terrible argument against theonomy.
@@Jay_the_giantTotally right.
Voddie is optimistic about the world not just about the church.
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Edit: This was written before I heard Sam give the same answer.
For the answer to what Satan is bound from doing in Rev 20:2, you simply go to Rev 20:7-8 and see what he does when he's loosed. He's loosed right on time to gather the nations against the Saints and against Christ at His Second Coming. Only the Father knows the day and the hour, so of course He'll release the evil one when it's time. Notice he's destroyed immediately upon Christ's return, not a 1000 years later, so dispensationalism and an earthly rule of Christ for another literal thousand years is not true. It's all over for sin and death when He comes again. Hallelujah!
Revelation 20:7-8 KJV
And when the thousand years are expired, *_Satan shall be loosed_* out of his prison,
[8] *_And shall go out to deceive the nations_* … *_to gather them together to battle:_* the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
It's a wheat field, not a tear field.
It's a field field.
Tare
Its exhausting when many theonomist post millennials claim that they are the only ones that believe Christ is King and that they are the only ones that really love God's law. It's a strawman.
That's a strawman just like your whole comment.
We’re the only ones that consistently live like Christ is King and God’s law is good. I believe you believe those things too, but your theology is inconsistent with that love.
The Christian even in bloody martyrdom is victorious! Their readiness to suffer and never surrender their testimony and faith is a victory over the flesh the world and Satan. You shall be hated by all Jesus said. When does that ever end in this fallen world of ours. Hebrews 11 is a chapter describing the absolute victory of Gods people in and under all violent and hostile circumstances. God shall avenge His elect who cry to Him day and night. Luke 18:13.
Jesus isn’t, nor would He ever be the one martyring and persecuting His own followers during THE GREAT TRIBULATION. We are the body of Christ! Jesus isn’t one to self mutilate! His wrath is being poured out on the wicked who rejected HIM, the creator who washed away the sin of His own creation. Read the follow scripture very close, you won’t be able to see it any other way!
Revelation 6:15-17
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Note: These are NOT followers of Christ / Christians, wanting to hide from the “wrath of The Lamb” in The Tribulation. These are those who were NOT taken out at the time of the resurrection/ rapture.
Revelation 6:15-17
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Note: These are NOT followers of Christ / Christians, wanting to hide from the “wrath of The Lamb” in The Tribulation. These are those who were NOT taken out at the time of the resurrection/ rapture.
I dont understand how they say their eschatology gives people hope. I think all the different opinions on the different eschatology views should give us hope because ultimately jesus being our salvation on the cross so we will live eternally with him if we believe and our born again is really the all the hope we need.
Exactly. In the sense that eschatological positions agree, they are hopeful. But their eschatology is no more hopeful than any other eschatology. Postmillenialism, however, is uniquely hopeful in that it believes the Gospel will actually transform this world. Postmillennialism isn’t just true because it’s the most hopeful; it’s true because what Jesus said would happen will happen.
The question of whether Jesus returns to a redeemed earth or returns to redeem the earth is one that makes me more seriously about the future prospects for mankind/church.
He did both and does both. He brings iIsrael to repentance at the end of the Tribulation when they see Him whom they have pierced saving them from their peril. aka the time of Jacob’s trouble.
@@vladpsychotrope3187 your system of eschatology would have the church separated somewhat from Israel , and from what I can tell , no one had this view until the 1830s .
Just a counterpoint for consideration
"The Rapture" by Ken Johnson Th.D.
@@seanbirke2786 I left the dispensational camp many years ago , but thanks . I’m more interested in the different opinions related to A-mill and post mill .
Moderator’s view of postmil is terribly off.
It’s cool that you’re incorrect and incoherent about what is being said.
@@roku89107 if that sentence is incoherent *to you* then idk what to tell you.
The 1000 yr golden age is one flavor that few to none hold today and was never the only postmil view.
I feel like I’m listening to a group of Pharisees and Sadducees with all these “After Christ” man made words you need a dictionary to get the definition unless you were trained in a seminary and not called by God who didn’t use well educated men to much because of their pride and arrogance to spread his gospel. Voddie is not to bad but he needs to get away from these patting each other on the back men Just my opinion
These men are confused as to who the church is and who is Israel in relation to the Revelation. I will not recommend these men as sound in doctrine to new and or young Believers.
The flood, and Sodom are types and shadows of a pre-trib rapture per Jesus. God clarified for Abraham that he would never judge the righteous with the wicked. Jesus is the one opening the seals of wrath. I could go on and on. The rapture and the resurrection happen within moments of one another. Who called you boys to teach what isn’t written?
Please, go on and on, if you can.
Where does it say the rapture and resurrection happen within moments of each other? I don’t see the rapture when reading scripture in its context.
@@gunitrunning6352 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV) 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
@@gunitrunning6352 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV) 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
@@gunitrunning6352 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (KJV) 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
When you read that with no preconceived notions and without any tradition taught, it seems to be talking about the final judgment.
I used to think it was the rapture too, but where does it go on that after the “caught up” that there is a tribulation for seven years and then a thousand year reign and then the final judgment? That’s the question. It always seems the rest of that kind of eschatology must read in between the lines to make it fit.