Ellie instantly relating to Abby without knowing it by way of revenge. Abby, later relating to Joel without knowing it by way of becoming protector to, and finding love for, a child she wanted nothing to do with. It’s a story about “other people’s shoes”. Loved it.
I find it really really bizarre that people hate on Joel for not giving Ellie over even though she ends up like a daughter to him but have no problem with Abby’s dad not answering Marlene when he gets asked if he would give up Abby. What dad would willingly give up their daughter, knowing she’s going to die for something that might not even work? 🤷🏼♀️
@@storm-shadow1237 ya or you know killed her but high chance her child would be immune. I'm no scientist but I'm pretty sure the right play would be insemination followed by harvesting the fetuses.
@@ryanmurphy9896 The game never presents us with that argument; it never shows us the Fireflies trying and failing to make a cure, Joel never questions the efficacy on a cure, etc. The game presents the scenario as If Joel gives up Ellie then the world is saved. Everything else is post-hoc rationalization that try to justify Joel's selfish motivations. What he did was wrong, but understandable by most.
Joel doomed the world for his own selfish needs; after years of being a broken, closed off man, he finally allowed himself to love again and he wasn't about to lose another loved one like he did Sarah; the pain was too great. Listen, I get it; I understand why he did what he did and can't honestly say that I know I could have done different. But it was still the wrong thing to do.
I think if that were to happen, none of the mess would have occurred. They both needed to be emotionally blocked (death of their fathers) for the game to have happened the way it did. I guess maybe in Part 3 this may happen.
I have this theory that Abby is immune in the same way that Ellie is. And that her father knew this, but refused to operate on his own daughter, and lied to her about it, hiding her immunity. Making him much more like Joel than previously known. A doctor alone likely wouldn’t have the knowledge of fungus to create a cure. So I also like they idea that a mycologist was helping him. They had a falling out when the Dr refused to operate on Abby. Making him a living firefly doctor that Ellie and Abby have to find together. All before finding out from them that Abby is immune. And then we get a choice one who’s life to lay down for the cure.
@@JBurnz001 Abby knew. I'm playing tlou2 for the first time right now and I'm at the beginning of Abby's part. At the hospital where her dad talks with Marlene about Joel and Ellie, Abby enters the room with food for him and she obviously heard the conversation. She knew what's going on with the vaccine etc.
While playing through part 2, even though you’re controlling Ellie, you’re still Joel. You love Ellie like a child and you have to watch your child lose everything because she keeps making bad decisions. You watch her life spiral out of control and you’re powerless to intervene. By the end of the game, you’re disappointed in her, just like a dad would be. In fact, you’re the one who taught Ellie how to be a killer, you’re the one who turned her into a monster.
Double thumbs up if I could! I'm so glad someone else recognised this extraordinarily clever device! This is why the Ellie vs Abby fight scenes are so traumatic and conflicting for players with any understanding of Joel's character - he never wanted Ellie to be in these situations. Anyone who felt angry that Ellie doesn't kill Abby never understood their relationship. You are playing as Ellie's "guardian angel Joel" watching over her after death.
As i was beating Abby to a pulp at the end of the game I was like noooo Ellie stopppp yet i had to keep going. it was rough , i cried from relief when ellie let her go.
@@bobbycigarillo ellie should have killed abby last of us 2 is pretty bad it wastes charaters like a pokemon card and abby is shit theres a reason theres 10 hour clips of abby dying thee game couldve been alot better if they were consistence with how they wanted to tell the story it wouldve been bettter and the message was beaten over our head with a golf club and the fact they try to make the people who killed joel likeable is retarded i do agree joel should have died in the second but they wasted it i agree with moistcrikitals take on the game alot they try to make villians likeable how im i supposed to care for abby whens she is a giant douche bag
THIS is why i love the last of us part 2. its crazy how much that game revealed about the world. i have never seen more hate around a game, and so many people sent threats and just said awful things about the creators. u should see the stuff they say about neil druckman on the tlou2 reddit server. all these people saying the same thing "the message of the game was so dumb, we obviously know not to do these evil things", while at the same time, theyre constantly proving that message wrong by hating so much. its genuinely baffling. people are so blind to whats right in front of them. i think someones response to playing tlou2 really can tell u a lot about that person. the game is incredible to me, and i find it amazing how well it was able to immerse u and TRULY make u feel like the characters. the level of hate around joels death and abbys character is truly just a testament to that. they made u feel the same level of grief that ellie felt, the only difference is that ellie was able to move on by the end, and the players werent. incredible game, and id 100% argue that its the greatest video game ever made.
I just finished a play though of Part 1 with my girlfriend this morning. We immediately went into Part 2 and she started bawling when Joel sat down and sang to Ellie. It was just hours ago in Part 1 when he said he'd never sing for her. Seeing the strained relationship between them and how Joel reached out to her really made us love these stories so much more. She doesn't know what is coming up, but I am excited to experience it again with her. Awesome job on the video. Your video essays are always top notch and thoughtful.
Damn, this was SO good; had to stop it twice to send the link to a few friends so they could watch along. I wish I could put into words what Ryan & the SC team did here. Very insightful video, awesome work everyone! 🙏
I've just finished TLOU part 2 and though intellectually I appreciate what they've done, emotionally I can't like it. Who would? The part in which I cried the most, after his death, was when she lost even what Joel had left for her - the ability to play the guitar. I understand that this is what made her realize how much she had lost and finally let Abby go, but in my head cannon she found some finger prosthetics so she could play again.
Intellectually, the WLF leaving Ellie and Tommy alive after torturing Joel to death in front of them is completely ret*rded. And that's not the only ret*rded part. There's plenty.
Hopefully you and those who feel the same can take the story as an opportunity to grow. I hate to sound preachy, but maybe you don't always have to like the way you feel on an emotional level. In this story bad things happen and it sucks. But life is like that. It's always like that at some point for everyone.
@@BryanSalyersXDI just played A Plague Tale: Requiem and in combination with Innocence there were similar feelings. I love hard tragedies like that. Just like you said, it gives you a chance to grow.
@@goblinky @BryanSalyersXD I think you guys did not get what I meant. When I say I appreciate it intellectually but I don't like it emotionally it's exactly that - I understand that the game wanted to make me feel the void and they succeeded in an impressive manner. Maybe don't take everything you read as a chance to attack people? Maybe try to understand what they are saying and respect their thoughts? That is an opportunity to grow.
I really wish I could witness the alternate universe version of the last of us part 1 that started with Abby’s story, and see if people would have the same feelings when part 2 forced you to switch to Ellie after she has murdered everyone Abby cares about
I mean the anger problem would probably be less severe. However I don't think anyone would be very appreciative of Abby trying to avenge his child killer of a father.
@@ollehkacb sorry for no aking please to a little girl before trying to save the world guys. Serieosly, what are they gonna do if she say no? Let her go to a world were she could probably die tomorrow?
For me, it’s just an incredibly flawed game. They remove the best part of the first game - Joel and Ellie dynamic - but new characters they introduced aren’t nearly as interesting. Case in point, 2 years later, I only remember Abby. Ellie’s girlfriend, her ex, the boy Abby travels with - I don’t even remember their names. Tommy was also wasted in part 2, I feel. Also, the things this game tries to say about vengeance and perspective aren’t exactly groundbreaking. What’s worse, they don’t make sense within the context of the gameplay. When you kill hundreds of random NPC’s in your way, “vengeance bad” theme doesn’t work and it comes off as a stupid B movie where the main character kills a bunch of henchman but spares the main villain because “I’m not like you”. Also, despite all the darkness, there is a lot of charm to the first game. Last of us 2 is joyless. With Joel gone, Ellie being miserable and new characters lacking in charisma, the game is sometime a slog to get through.
Abby & the fireflies would have worker so much better as DLC :\ We all bought TLoU2 for Ellie and Joel bc that's What they sold to us, abby Is not a bad character but we didn't pay to see her
@@Fabrimgg but Abby is a bad character, she is shallow minded and never pronounce deep words, her personality is basically "Abby angry Abby smash" in both senses
Also I really hate the constant use of flashbacks in this game..The first game was so present focused because there was no time for thinking about the past. There are zombies and hunters lurking around and a brutal military dictatorship Then lou 2 roles around having flashbacks within flash backs like a Shonen anime
Last of Us Part 2 has a heavy theme of humanity and how everyone is in their own experience. Right down to when you kill an “enemy” and the other enemies call out the ones killed by their name. They knew each other, they survived together, they probably shared their deepest thoughts whilst hiding form the infected. And still, they were in Ellie’s way who we understand why she’s in a killing rampage.
yeah ofcourse such an amazing message about humanity :D Ellie: *murders many , many people , killing dogs and murdering a pregnant woman * also Ellie: *lets Abby live just because * I dont know about you but in my opinion this doesnt make sense...I would have liked more if she would just have killed Abby cause in my eyes she already has lost her humanity and her showing mercy to Abby didnt make any difference
@@HK-gm8pe All the killing was causing Ellie to lose her humanity completely, choosing to not take revenge on Abby breaks the cycle of violence and gives Ellie a glimmer of hope that she can forgive and find peace.
The storytelling of TLOU 2 is undoubtedly interesting and creative. Unfortunately, it just isn’t as good as part 1 was. If Joel’s death had occurred halfway through the story, with part 1 being Abby’s successful quest for revenge, part 2 being Ellie’s nearly successful quest for revenge, and a short 3rd act requiring them to work together to survive and then reluctantly go their separate ways, I think it would have been much more well received. Killing Joel so early and then having the rest of the game lead to an unsatisfying conclusion is why the game gets so much criticism.
@@joelhenry5489 lmao how is this faux intellectual? it’s a pretty straightforward critique, and not inaccurate about the pacing issues in this game. pretty sure you just don’t like people criticizing stuff you like.
Man, I LOVE these thesis videos you've been doing more recently. You are just as good at these as you are the breakdown and theory videos. Please keep making these. I think these are actually you're best work.
TLOU2 was an experience like nothing I’ve watched/played/read before. Emotionally it was on another level. Was genuinely painful to play at times, and I felt drained at the end. It’s just sooooooo good.
No. I hate last of us 2 because it isn’t last of us 2. It is Abbey’s story or whatever you wish to call it. Last of Us is about Joel and Ellie and the complexity of their relationship, from cargo to caretaker to father making decisions for a daughter who is incapacitated. That is the story. It’s not rocket science or an extension of wish fulfillment. It is a story with a beginning, middle and end. To make a sequel is a continuation of that story with that primary point. Instead they told us the same story more or less from a different character’s pov. They killed one of our favorite protagonist and turned one of our beloved characters into a inhumane killer. Wow, edgy and stupid all at once with great animation. If that is how you wish to enjoy your entertainment buck, bless you. It is bad writing by a team that told the story it wanted to tell and then we all have to pretend there is a sequel.
I didn’t play this at launch due to everyone saying it was bad. I just finished it an hour ago and it’s my favorite game. The ending scene with Joel and Ellie on the porch is the only time i shed a tear while playing a game. Joel truly loved her.
I always thought Joels death was perfect. Dont get me wrong I love a good dramatic death. But thats all we get. We dont get any realistic, sudden and brutal deaths and i loved that it shocked me to my core. The video says it all.
I get that but still, Joel deserved better. I don't mind the overall story or that Joel dies but merely how it was executed. You're telling me that the same guy who ran some helpless person over because he doubted his intentions, would openly state his name in the middle of a room filled with strangers knowing how many people he has wronged and how many might be out for revenge. It just doesn't feel like something Joel would do. I feel like the biggest problem I have with the story of tlou2 is the fact that, at several points in the game, the characters are driven by the plot. The characters do something they would've never done otherwise just so the plot can happen. Another example of this is when Abby has dina by the throat and decides not to kill her even though she and Ellie killed her entire family/friends, because a kid gives her a strange look. When earlier she had no problem killing her former WLF friends and boss because they killed a girl she met merely days ago. Now keep in mind that when you play as Abby walking through the WFL base it is clear that everyone likes her and looks up to her and presumably she likes them back. Or when Ellie had Abby at her mercy at the end of the game but decided to cut her down and have a fair fight when she had no problem beating and torturing her friends earlier. I guess the main weak point of the story of the second game is inconsistency in character to serve the plot.
@@Sadnan2.0 he didn't deserve better he is probably the best father ever but the deeds he has done are so brutal that you can't say that their judgement would come with mercy...
@@Anonymous-st3gy I know, I wasn't saying that Abby did him wrong but that the writer could've given him a more honourable death. What happened in tlou2 was basically Joel doing a woppsie and acting against his survivalistic instincts. For the plot to happen he just needed to die, it didn't have to be a stupid death. A better way to go about it would've been if he died because he didn't trust anyone, like the one thing that kept him alive throughout all these years causes his death, ironically.
@@Sadnan2.0 what do you mean by honorable death, was Marlene and Abby's father got honourable death for trying to make a vaccine that could have potentially saved millions of life, no they were shot right in the fucking head....then how can you expect the same for joel, but one thing I would have like to see is more light on joel at the end of the game.. I think you wanted to see more from joel..
@@Anonymous-st3gy as I said I didn't mind joel dying. What I do mind is how he died. An honourable death is what I would wish for since he is one of my favourite characters of all time. Also honourable doesn't mean he has to carry the bomb out of town so no one else gets hurt all dark knight style, but even something like him dying trying to protect the ones he loves, you know, kinda died as he has lived typa thing. Even if it's not honourable I wouldn't be as mad as I am when I see the most untrusting person do a stupid beginner's mistake as if he hasn't lived through 24+ years of human deprivaty and desperation.
The Last of Us 2 is great also because the authors did not make a smooth fan service sequel for money - they created a raw, heart-breaking, "fuck you" kind of story, knowing that not everyone is going to enjoy it, but it's going to move the industry forward and open new grounds for can be portrayed in AAA games For that reason alone I will always respect the whole team behind it
Couldn't agree more. The Last of Us Part II is polarizing but for all the right reasons (imo simply! lol) since it show cases what humanity will do for its love ones, for survival in a dark gritty world. Man I can't wait for Part III.
Yes! It would've been so easy for them to coast on adventures with Joel and Ellie. But they went in a much bolder direction and the game will age really well because of it.
One scene I like in the Last of Us Part 2 is Joel telling Ellie he would save her all over again at the end of the game. It has a double meaning. The more obvious of which is Joel would do anything in his power to save Ellie regardless of the consequences. Joel straight up says this, this is self explanatory. But the hidden meaning is how we have just experienced the entire game and now know how everything plays out for the game's massive cast of characters. I think a part of us all knew at some point Joel thought something like this. But certifying it as the game had just presented all it had to offer is an interesting thing to do. We wonder, 'would Joel's answer change if he knew all the pain and grief he caused many characters', and it becomes clear, he is solely focused on him and Ellie's relationship and nothing else. We'll never know, but would he do it again if the character had witnessed all we had seen throughout the game. Overall, a very well constructed piece of dramatic irony by putting this flash back scene in this final section. This scene leaves us with this huge hidden 'what if' question, while the scene that follows allows us to wonder where Ellie goes from where she's standing.
i bought TLOU2 but only played a little when it came out cuz i was working too much to play...time went on and never got around to it (altho i absolutely loved the first game). I heard ppl hated the story and didnt know why, checking out this breakdown would of put me in the loving the game camp. I always love the idea of the villain is a hero in their own story, and basically what i get from this breakdown is we have 2 heroes/villains comflicting with eachother (the hardest type of writing to do). I can understand why ppl would be pissed cuz i loved Joel too, but i had a hunch he was going to die before the game came out. this now makes me want to play it though and see it all for myself.
I think the point was that Joel did some terrible things to survive and wasn't a typical good person..... We loved his character because he was a protector and he was damaged.... The TV show even goes as far to say he tried to kill himself.... He's not treated as untouchable by the second game, he's a victim of the post apocalyptic world.... And we hate Abby for it but then to "walk a mile in her shoes" and see the events that led her to doing what she did you can't help but empathize....(or at least I couldn't!)
Empathy cannot be forced. It can't, that's just not natural or human. That's why Last of Us 2 didn't work for me. I don't mind playing as Abby at all... I just don't feel strongly for her at any point. Joel was a morally grey character and the game didn't do half as much to redeem hin as they tried to do for Abby... but we still empathize and love Joel. That was organic. Abby's POV redemption was very hamfisted and not really that engaging to begin with.
The thing that Naughty Dog didn't account for was that people STILL wouldn't want to play as Abby WHILE they were going through with it. A lot of people just went with the motions to see how her story would get back to Ellie. The game TRIED to MAKE YOU do a lot of things. And for some, it didn't work. In my case, I could clearly see what the game was TRYING to make me do, and all I could see is the writer telling me what to think and how to feel. And that took me out of the story.
you're actually missing the entire point, it was never intended to FORCE you to feel any type of way. You felt disgusted playing Abby because all you wanted was revenge, which was the exact same feelings Abby had on her road to killing Joel for his selfish yet understanding actions in TLOU1, thus showing why the human cycle of lack of empathy ends up getting us no where in the end. The characters matured and came to that realization by the end fight, but not everyone can
@AyoShaba I'm not missing anything. I'm literally explaining to you that ALL I could see was the writer TELLING ME all that same stuff that you just wrote. The story is designed to FORCE you to hate Abby... so says.... the WRITER. They just don't use the word 'force,' but they decided to make this story specifically for all those reasons. Some people... Ayo, just can't see when they're so blatantly being handled by someone...
This was brilliant. Thank you-I hope millions of people see this. It explains so much, is told in a way people can hear & take it in, and gives us directions to a different path. Again, thank you.
i agree with this take. we all love joel but it made sense for him to die and it makes ellie’s motivation and drive throughout the rest of the game even more compelling, heartbreaking, and horrifying. once again druckmann centered his game around love and specifically the strong bond between its 2 main characters and how that bond drives them to extremes. we forget that the tlou world is full of tragedy and happen endings are hard to come by, which is also why i love the decision to make us look at the same world we’ve come to love through another survivors lens like abby. tlou 1 and 2 are both masterful
My problem with the last of us 2 was that they messed up Joel's character and he started acting stupid making decisions he would not have made in the first game. It was always so careful about not providing names and that sort of thing. I honestly don't believe he would have got himself in that situation to be surrounded and killed. It felt forced just so they could make it happen for their story. I would have been much happier if they wrote in a stealthy ambush or something that Joel would have had no way, preparing for
He was out of character. Something he wouldn’t not had done. But to fit the story they had to. And that’s horrible writing, killing off a very important character from one of the best game of all time. It’s like having metal gears solid snake and killing off snake with a immature decision that he wouldn’t make. Would had make everyone upset.
@@zipzeolocke2 people say that he got too comfortable living with tommy and all so he become more friendly and off guard but doesn’t make sense cause zombie, and the firefly are problem looking for him after the event of the first one. You would had been even more guarded and protected than before.
@@JRosa-pk4ze I could buy Joel letting his guard down inside safe quarantine zones but not outside, no way would he. He knows how dangerous the world is
you're correct... first minutes of playing as Abby I was asking myself: "where is the end of playing as this bi*ch?" but later as she found the kids and saves them, I started to adore this part of storyline
@@EM-ve9bh game should have started as abby. Builds a lot if intrigue about the game and world then lets you stew over your feelings about revenge while you spend several hours partaking in it.
@@TheFloodFourm I thought of that too, but I liked the way it makes you hate Abby at first. I was fully ready to murder her entire crew. But when I look at it objectively from Abbys standpoint and remove any bias towards Ellie, I can see her side as well.
@@TheFloodFourm The whole point of playing as Ellie first is so you’re on board with her as a character emotionally and willing to transgress in the name of revenge. That falls apart if you’ve gotten to know Abby and her crew because then you as the player and Ellie are not on the same page Which makes Ellie’s story fall apart. I don’t understand how so many fail to see this point.
@@ItsSVO i understand that is the point? I just think it would have been more interesting the other way around? The way it is now the story loses momentum. Plus, most players miss the point because they’re too mad at abbey to ever give her character a chance, even while playing as her.
If the Walking Dead started with Negan, we would have sided with him against Ricks group. Even wondering why he ONLY kills Glenn and Abraham instead of wiping them all out. Both Negan and Rick were good men before the outbreak. Both became killers to protect their groups. Both see each other as ruthless monsters and murderers of their people. Joel is not a good person anymore when we meet him in Last of Us. He’s a con man, a thief, a murderer. But over the course of the game we see his idea of humanity return, and are happy for him for finding it. But because of the way we absorb stories, we side with Joel because he’s Us by extension. I make the same case for Abby. How and why we relate to a character can change depending on when in their life you met them. If we met Abby at the end of Last of Us 1, crying over the body of her father, we would have already understood her. But instead, that first meeting is her killing someone precious to us. Last of Us 2 is perfect.
I like that. I agree. When watching walking dead I wanted negan dead. After his redemption arc and knowing his story I understand why he did what he did. He was honestly too forgiving at times. Same with this game. I understand why abby killed Joel. I still wanted to kill her though. I would’ve been satisfied with the game ending at the farmhouse with Dina. The Santa Barbara arc was just a waste. You go there lose 2 fingers and let Abby go anyway. Only reason i see why they should’ve kept it is if they gave us the choice. Let her go or continue drowning her. If we chose to drown her we would get a different ending.
@@birddog19 This makes me smile so much. Try to reimagine the last fight as necessary. It is, in my opinion. So is Ellie losing the fingers, but I’ll get to that. By the end of their fight, Ellie finally decides to end the cycle of violence that unknowingly began with Joel’s decision at the end of 1. In that, finding forgiveness for Joel that she couldn’t offer him while he was alive. As for the fingers, I have a long winded pitch for LOU3. Involves Ellie and Abby having to go together to rumored firefly doctor that could complete Abby’s father’s work. Long story short, we find out Abby is immune after she is bitten. An immunity she unknowingly gained after biting off Ellie’s fingers. (It’s not an immunity, it’s a form of cordycep that fights off the violent one) The Naughty Dog gives you your first choice. Abby or Ellie. Who gets to lay their life down for humanity. Now that we should, by this point, understand and love both women as much as they learn to love each other on their journey. Which I believe addresses your misgivings and gives us a powerful choice for the first time in the series. 🤷🏻♂️
@@chrismatteson1312 ya know I saw a video a month or so ago and it was a lot of scientific jargon but it basically said that Ellie is indeed infected but she was infected by a different strain of cordyceps somehow and that strain acts as an antifungal and that’s why she never got worse. I’ll try and find it and link it.
@@VannywiththeFanny why because I hate a character I'm forced to play as after she killed off one of my favorite video game characters of all time? Or you trying to insinuate something else that isn't there?
@@VannywiththeFanny Good lord, it's a video game, why do you judge people so much for being critical of any works of art? That really says a lot about the real you concerning these fictional characters. Judging a real person over not feeling the same way over pixels, christ sake. Look around you and touch grass.
I think the game should just started with Abby, get to like her and trust her. Not just the opening bit… Then you get invested on her revenge, then you realized its Joel. Then you still have everything happen as is. You still have the same perspective/revenge story.
You have no idea that your'e a talking about. The last of us part 2 controversy is not about Joel's death. People hate part 2 because Joel acts "out of a character" and put himself in situation he should never be in. This is cheap and obviously was forced by scriptwriters ignoring everything about Joels character. Waiting for 7 years for part 2 just to get nonsense plot driven by cheap shock-twists and filled with unpleasant functional secondary characters no one cares about - this is why people hate this. Period
I don't think people necessarily hate it, rather annoyed at how Naughty Dog handled it. It's just sorely, majorly disappointing. For me, it just isn't engaging. I found it boring. Story and writing is a crucial point for me, and this one just did not do it for me. It's a damn shame because it really did have so much going for it and had potential to be something truly special. To each their own.
Oh no i hate it. I just feel some people are hating it in a very dumb way. For me the problem was never "oh they killed Joel! Me hate abby!" My problem was "why the hell did they straight up lie to us in the trailer" "Why did they set up the story so out of order" "Why is there gender dysphoria talked about IN A ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE!" But nooooo we got people making de@th threats because of video games characters dying. Frekin lizard brain ppl man.
*Spoilers I have more of an issue with the coincidences, and action movies tropes that are strewn all throughout the game than the illogical decisions. (Character not killing you when they have 50 chances to shoot you, Joel running into Abby and saving her just in time, Jessie finding Ellie and Dina, Ellie dropping the map that says where they are lol, on and on I have at least 10 more) And more than anything, the pacing. There was no way they were going to kill off Joel in the first 2 hours of the game and not upset most of the fans of the original game in a way that made them feel cheated or like they were tricked into playing a game they didn't want to. I think they could have earned Joel's death, and actually gave it even more emotional weight with a little bit more buildup. How about spending the first 3rd of the game as Ellie traveling around with Joel on some red herring mission. THEN Joel gets killed out of nowhere. That would have much more weight, and it would still give players what they want. Killing everyone's favorite character 2 hours into the game, and then forcing you to play as his killer for TEN FUCKING HOURS!?!!........There's a reason why you don't see stories like that very often lol. It just doesn't work. You're almost guaranteed to lose tons of people along the way. As it stands now, the current story pisses a lot of people off, but I think people too-often praise it for being "bold" instead of just having poor pacing, or unbelievable circumstances. Having Luke Skywalker die falling down the stairs at the beginning of Return of the Jedi would be bold, it would piss people off, and that doesn't mean that it has good writing. It's very very easily to manufacture those emotions in your audience, but I would argue what the first game did with slow character development was much more impressive, even if the premise was already a little cliche when the game originally released. It's the execution that matters. Anybody can just write down "Joel dies by getting beaten to death by the daughter of this character from the original game." on the storyboard. Sure, the idea is a little interesting. But it's the execution that is really the real test. And, in my opinion, if the execution was done well, you wouldn't have probably 50% of the people who played that game walking away from it thinking it was either okay or some kind of massive betrayal. Stories can only bring up those kinds of emotions in people when they're done in a hamfisted way that treats the player like a Guinea pig. Now, some people want to praise the game for taking massive risks, and I guess I can understand that. I can understand why people might like the game. But, it isn't really a sequel to TLOU 1. Not in my opinion. As far as believability is concerned, it doesn't even take place in the same universe. It's like some alternate universe fanfic for me with some interesting merits, but completely disrespects the original characters and realism that the original game had. That's all gone here.
couldnt you also say that the plot armor given to characters isn't realistic and the fact that Joel dies without having some greater effect on the second game?
^^^^ My thoughts exactly. It strings you along for way too long because the writers know most people would be too invested to quit the game that early on. And honestly it was just pointlessly depressing.
Normally our views line up but not on this subject. Which isn't a big deal media is subjective But I'm firmly in the camp that the last of us 2 was really bad writing, poor character development and they bait and switched on Joel. I'm sure others appreciated it, but not me.
In writing, a bait and switch is actually called a twist, and it's a good thing. It isn't bad writing, it's literally the format of the genre, it's the same as the first game, just more impactful. This is like complaining that The Red wedding in game of thrones is bad writing and a "bait and switch".
I didn't hate the Last of Us 2, it just felt like a huge waste of time. The characters are unfullfilled, nobody really succeeds at anything and the story has no closure. When you play a story mode it's alot of time and effort and you hope to get something out of it. My biggest disappointment was saving Yara from her wounds just for her to die within the same chapter. The tone of the game is great, the acting is perfect, but the overall narrative? Not so much.
I think my experience is exactly what they expected players to feel. I absolutely loved the first and was beyond hyped for part 2. Playing it was amazing but then I got to that Joel and Abby scene... and I hated it and was sad and angry. Kept playing and was fully with Ellie on her revenge quest and as we get to Abbys playthrough section I was pissed and angry all over again... but then I seen Abbys story play out and witnessed her side of the story and her and Levs journey and fell in love with the character. It's a brutal and violent and depressing story of TLOU2 but that is what makes it amazing to me and one of the best games ever made.
It is depressing, but also hopeful. In my opinion, Ellie letting Abby live was her way of finally forgiving Joel. By ending the cycle of violence that he began. I think the 3rd game should be about Abby and Ellie. Abby finding a Firefly doctor that can complete a cure if they had access to an immune person. Abby finds Ellie, who reluctantly agrees to go with her. And on the way learn how much they actually relate to each other. How much violence they’ve caused in the name of a lost love. I expect Ellie to eventually see Joel in Abby, a person who came to love a stranger they didn’t initially want around. Slowly chipping away at their hatred for each other. Then, close to their goal, Abby is bitten. Both finally finding acceptance and true forgiveness for each other. Ellie promises to stay until the end with Abby. But in the morning, Abby is unchanged. Because Ellie isn’t immune, she’s infected with a fungus that kills the violent cordycep strain. The same infection Abby would have received after bitting off Ellie’s fingers in LOU2. They finish the journey together, and then Naughty Dog gives us our first choice in the series. Allow Ellie to lay her life down for a chance to save humanity and give her the agency Joel took from her years ago. Or allow Abby to finish her fathers work by doing the same. Last of Us was about love. Last of Us 2 about hatred and revenge. Last of Us 3 about forgiveness and hope.
That simply didn't happen for everyone. That's the biggest critique. They flawlessly made you fall in love with Ellie and Joel, but tried way too hard to make you fall for Abby. They kept telling you they wanted you to with clichéd screenwriting 101 tactics like "save the cat" and "pet the dog" after depicting Abby has a malicious enemy. We never saw Joel that way. I think they felt a little invincible after the praise of the first film and tried to up the ante.
Something I've taken away after just finishing the Last of Us Part 2 is that it's a game that succeeds at creating a brutal atmosphere. The first game with its characters deaths is arguably more consistent at putting a hole in your heart, but Part 2 definitely continues at least an adequate form of this trend. Other elements such as the music, the physical violence and gameplay, crawling through harsh terrain to kill people with such brutality is something the game improves on from the first. Of course one of the main aspects of the brutal nature of this series is the decisions the characters are forced to make on very short notice, most notably (SPOILER ALERT) Joel's decision to kill dozens upon dozens of people to save one life. At this point, the only thing that remains is the sympathy we have for our lead characters because they are so lovable. I have mentioned the word brutal several times throughout this comment. And I might as well mention it one more time, but this time, only for the second entry and not the series as a whole. The Last of Us Part 2 starts to diminish our sympathy for these lovable leads. We see other perspectives, which to some ruin the original game, but without the second game, only shield us from the underlying truth. Abby is a character who I thought was a well written character who served her purpose in the story very well. Ellie contributes to the brutality of the Last of Us series, and to some, they could honestly be desensitized from all the killing. Only when we switch to Abby's perspective do we feel a new form of sorrow in knowing that our beloved characters caused such dire repercussions to some, equally beloved characters as we close out the second game having had spent so much time with Ellie's "family" of characters. Right before the credits begin to roll, we see a shot of Ellie at an absolutely insurmountable low, now having just lost the ability to play guitar, a vessel keeping her in touch with a lost father figure, and Dina having left. Depending on the person, for some it may only leave you questioning legacy characters, and for others it will leave them watching a completely different closing shot for TLOU2. Ellie having to experience everything the games have had to share of this BRUTAL last of us atmosphere and us, the viewer, faith in her.
There's a wide variety of reasons people may dislike the game that go way beyond Joel Died (a valid but shallow opinion) or Ellie's Gay (completely invalid) Personally, I was turned off by the miserable tone. These are all deeply broken and terrible people that use the outcomes of their atrocities as excuse to commit ever more atrocities. A perfectly human story if ever there was one, even if it's about as deep as a puddle, but regardless that doesn't mean I want to sit through 40 hours of repetitive combat and stealth sections for it
The title was literally never explained. And just because you play as Abby doesn’t mean you have to defend her murdering a man who saved her in cold blood.
@@drown_n Her father pulls a knife on you as you attempt to rescue a girl he is about to murder. Even by present day standards it would be legal to kill him in that situation. It would in no way be legal to murder someone with a golf club who is not threatening you at all 🤷♂️
The End of The Last of Us Part 1: Joel regains his lost humanity. The Last of Us Part 2 Haters: Why is Joel not acting like a soulless hardass that trusts no one and always has his guard up? He would never have acted like this in the first game!
That is not how it works, regaining humanity is not remotely related to being wise and protective in an APOCALYPSE where murderers and cannibals are everywhere
@@ahmadalrowaili1751 You're right, they're not related, but he wasn't wise in the first game either. Play it again and note that we spend only 9 days with him and he screws up about 27 times in cutscenes. How many traps did he trigger? How many times did he pass through an exit without checking for danger first? How many times was he carelessly looking the wrong way and got jumped? He even says "it's called luck and it will run out".
Another thing I notice is that each game is about how illogical human emotions are: Part 1: spend the whole game trying to get to Fireflies to save world, and then you choose to save one girl over the world Part 2: spend the whole game trying to kill Abby to avenge Joel, and then you forgive Abby in order to forgive Joel
@@excalibro8365 Joel doubted the idea of a cure from jump. “We’ve heard this before.” He’s irritated that’s the reason they were risking their lives. When he found out she was going to die, he was never going to allow that.
@@connerl8449 I don’t think either decision is spontaneous. Joel always doubted a cure. He was never going to let them kill Ellie. And Ellie was never going to leave Lev without a protector, like Abby did to Ellie. In that moment, she finds the forgiveness for Joel that she wasn’t able to offer him while he was alive.
Ellie wasn't totally taken over by revenge. She was manipulated by Tommy. She was starting to wind down and deal with her trauma with Dina. Then Tommy comes and tells her that if she isn't going to find Abby and kill her, then Tommy will go himself and get killed because his leg is bad. Tommy forced Ellie to go.
So the bad writing is the reason the game is great? Yeah you lost me? How can anyone identify with Abby she’s literally one of the most evil characters in the game she literally kills her own Allies because she want to take care of some trans kid. She would’ve slit a pregnant woman’s throat with a smile on her face (Abby only stopped cause she didn’t wanna do that in front of the trans kid). I don’t think I can identify with that. I know Ellie killed Abby’s pregnant friend (by accident) and when she realized what she did she was so grief stricken she could barely form words.
I mean you liked it for me and everyone else is just controversial and garbage I rather prefer other video game story like resident evil four or Other games that did it better than last of us part two.
@@eldeadkilljohnkennedy3946 “me and everyone else”… dude that’s the weakest response ever. There is no “everyone else”, because everyone has a different opinion and there is no “right answer “. If you didn’t like it it’s ok, you’re entitled to it. I respect that. But don’t play the “me and everyone else” card. Peace ✌🏼
This video would make sense if Abby were a like able character but she isn’t. She’s a home-wrecker, she literally enjoyed torturing people and her group of friends are one dimensional. Like the one Spanish dude always saying “pendejo”. As a Latino I don’t know a single person that talks like this. This game is far from a masterpiece (technically it is amazing) but storytelling wise it plays out like fan fiction.
I think people’s gripe with Part 2 wasn’t the direction/theme of the game. It was the way it was done pertaining to the catalyst-Joel getting killed. There just too many illogical inconsistencies done by Joel and Tommy that got them caught. Why would extremely cautious people like Joel and Tommy just give away where they’re from and their names to strangers?
I don't understand how people defend this story honestly. It had so many issues yet people defend it like it's the best story game ever written "10/10 masterpiece"
Because Ellie broke down Joel's defenses throughout the course of the first game. If he was the same Joel shown at the beginning of the first game he wouldn't be nearly as willing to trust Abby.
@@Cheesemounta I don’t think that makes much sense. You’re right that he became much more human because of Ellie, but to suggest that’ll override decades of survival tactics is not good writing. It’ll make much more sense that he’s open to a relationship with people and strangers already accepted by Jackson, but complete strangers? I just can’t see it.
I also appreciated the message underneath that revenge and lack of empathy don’t bring catharsis but the exact opposite. The selfish desires of these characters end up hurting them in a multitude of ways. Ellie threw away her chance at happiness for selfish need for revenge on another person that also had her happiness taken for the purely selfish reasons that Joel killed her father. Both are great experiences that I could only bring myself to play thru once a piece.
@Alexander Knowles haha. I find it amusing that you insult people based on their affection for fictional characters to someone who loves the genre of fiction. I mean even this dude who made the video tells you why you care about fictional characters.
@@ollehkacbstill don’t agree with the other guy tho- I genuinly liked Abby and Ellie’s story. Both had their reasons, people are just getting too attached to Joel and thus they got mad over Joel dying. I myself like that he died in the way he did cause well, This is supposed to be kinda realistic and it shows life will hit you unpredictably. Joel didn’t die like a hero, died like any other person would.
@@Joryu- i thought it was a tweenagers idea of a good story. It was edgy, bleak, without a satisfying resolution. Putting it lightly its tragedy porn. As I've explained it to some others before, the reason most people like is the same reason victims love their abusers. That being the sweet moments and memories of when the relationship was good. Which is how most tragedy prob story's gather their audience in my opinion.
TLOU1 was a story about Love......TLOU2 was a story about Revenge.....TLOU3 should be about Redemption ....Hope where there was once no hope for humanity at all...I predict the 3rd one will have Abby and Ellie having to work together to finally save humanity's future.
They're both about love in the end, 2 is about the trauma of losing the ones you love and the lengths you can go to to hurt someone that hurt your loved ones but in the end its also love that helps Ellie and Abby start to move forward. After killing Joel Abby still felt like shit and her friends' group was distancing themselves from her, she still has nightmares, its not until Yara and Lev that she finds a new path for herself. Likewise with Ellie it's not until she can remember her last conversation with Joel and see his face without the memories of his death that she can begin moving on. I don't see Ellie and Abby team up or even ever meeting again, that's a bit too Marvel movie plot for TLoU
In some crossover sometime in the future PlayStation all-stars round two Probably a Erasing the last of us universe Giving it a swan song Ellie wakes up in a different universe to find out it’s actually insomniac Spider-Man Timeline.
"I think the reasons people hate is what makes it great" You think poor writing, contrived plot events and established characters not behaving and not being logical the way they should are great? LMAO
My reaction when I finished TLoU II is still my overarching thought on the game: it's a masterpiece, but I didn't really enjoy it. That's not to say I didn't like or love it, I did, and I will replay it someday when I'm ready. But I did not enjoy the experience of playing it, and that is clearly intentional on the devs' part. The game is so brilliant in the way it makes you feel things, but those feelings are not often joy like many other games. But art is not supposed to make its audience feel joy exclusively, and much of the art that stands the test of time is not joyous but instead elicits more complex feelings in its audience. Also, I really love this take on the game, and especially the metaphor to technology/the internet. I think the internet specifically is a near perfect fit for the way the cordyceps infection is portrayed. Even the imagery, in the game and now in the show, of seeing the fungus spread like the view of electric lights from space, really conjures the idea of the internet and the way it has spread to be all-encompassing. And the disconnect it creates among humanity, I think that's a brilliant connection to make. I'm only annoyed that I hadn't considered it before myself, it seems so obvious to me now!
I’m guilty of not playing the game on release because of all the RUclipsrs bashing it. Plus I didn’t even want to play knowing Joel got killed immediately. Finally got around to it and it’s fucking amazing. Lesson learned.
I really hope others follow your example. I felt so sorry for those RUclipsrs who hate-played their way through in the early days, performatively deleting or breaking the game when they had to play as young Abby. It was like watching spoilt children throw a tantrum. I thought, "ok, I know Naughty Dog's going to try to manipulate me into liking her now, but the first game was so good I'll give them a chance and see how or if they do it." I was not disappointed. Such a complex & layered narrative compared to TLOU, but it didn't surprise me that so many struggled to appreciate it.
there are other reasons this game was hated that u didnt mention 1) its misery porn 2) the ending 3) the poor pacing 4) the poor way they killed off joel 5) the dialogue was rather cringe 6) that sex scene 7) mistreatment of joel and ellie. all of these are legit and valid issues with this game.... at least to reasonable people
The problem with Abby is just she was a weak link in the story. Who the hell is she? Daughter of the doctor that Joel killed? Well shit bro Joel killed a tons of a people. And no dont give me the “immunity” bullshit. Abby didnt give a shit about Ellie being immune. She went manhunt for Joel just because of her dad. And her loyal followers unknowingly willing to join as well. What about those family that Ellie killed then? Whats the meaning of this? And the game gave us TWICE pregnancy to “forced” player to be sad. So no, i have 0 sympathy to Abby whatsoever. I would prefer Ellie killed Abby in the end and thats it. Lev ? She should stayed in DLC.
Great takes! Point of clarification, Ellie loses her fingers *during* the final showdown with Abby. It's actually what causes her to finally let go of the fight, because she realizes that she'll never be able to play guitar again, thus never have the one thing that kept her connection to Joel alive. Such a beautiful moment, because that connection was also keeping her vengeance alive. Once that was taken--and she screams, "It's taken!"--she is too overwhelmed to continue and ultimately accepts the loss. Truly, an INCREDIBLE moment.
@@AETHEREALMINDS Huh, I don't remember that. I'll have to watch that scene again. I like this interpretation, I never drew such an explicit connection to playing guitar in that moment, but it makes sense.
@@AETHEREALMINDS hate to be that guy, but she doesn't seem to say anything when her fingers are bitten off. I watched a clip with subtitles and I didn't hear anything. She says " just take him" to Abby, in regards to Lev. Afterwards, when letting her go, basically saying get out of here before I change my mind.
@@itcouldbelupus2842 I’ll have to rewatch, but was likely in my wreck of emotions if I misheard. Regardless, losing her fingers-her ability to play guitar and her last connection to Joel-is what prompts her to finally let go.
Calling Abby a character is a stretch, because she's so poorly written, but here's what we know about her: Is sadistic: * Enjoys torturing Joel. * Wishes she had more time for torture, while walking past people being tortured. * Owen sex scene (less said about that the better). Disloyal: * Assigned to lead important attack against her group's enemies. Ignores assignment. * Kills her own comrades. * Sleeps with friend's boyfriend. Thoughtless: * Decides to find Joel by herself, because the rest of her group thinks it's impossible. Leaves without gear, supplies, or a plan. * Takes one-armed girl to an island where everyone wants to kill her. * Is surprised when Ellie shows up, despite the fact Ellie was literally screaming, "I WILL KILL YOU" while she was killing Joel. Self-centered: * Takes advantage of drunk ex-boyfriend, whom she apparently doesn't give a shit about, then blames him. * Acts surprised about the attack on Scar Island, even though she had been assigned to lead it. * Is pissed Ellie came after her, because, "We let you live". Even though Joel literally saved her life, immediately before she killed him. Lucky: * Doesn't get shot by Ellie, even though Ellie has a clear shot, with a weapon in both hands, at a distance of about ten or fifteen feet. * Survives attack by horde, after random guy saves her. Random guy coincidentally turns out to be guy she's looking for. * Gets handed map to killer's location, when she finds friends' bodies. Inconsistent: * "#1 Scar Killer" on day 1. #1 WLF killer on day 3. * Day 2: "If there are Fireflies in Santa Barbara, I'd go the other way." Day 3: Sails off to find Fireflies in Santa Barbara. * Goes on suicidally dangerous mission to save Yara. Doesn't bother to tell Owen and Mel that someone's trying to kill them. There are a lot of things to dislike about the "Abby" character. That she's the only person in the game who has access to steroids is stupid and distracting. But it's pretty minor..
She sounds more human than most characters, if you ask me… Would I call her thoughtless? Knowing she was looking for vengeance and a way to forgive herself later on the game? No. Would I call her self centered? Sure that’s a human trait, but is going all out and crossing an island where a war erupted for the sake of someone’s life self centered? No. I wouldn’t say that. I also find it hilarious that you call her lucky since most of her friends and father were killed and/or tortured. Ah don’t forget she ended up rotting in a cell before Ellie showed up in Santa Barbara. Most of her “inconsistency” is just evolution of her character. Some of your remarks are painful to read. Don’t just hate Abby just because, actually think about what she did and why she did it and compare her to Ellie afterwards. Would you say both of them are poorly written?
@@leandrosoares8338 I think this game just heavily relies on "you" the player liking Abby's character, If not people will end up hating it, which explains why there is such a divide between the fan base. And honestly the reason for that happening is purely because of good idea bad execution.
This reminded me of the funeral scene (S2 E4) in a church in Daredevil (Drew Goddard version) where Fr. Lanton says, “One person is not just one person. In each of us there is a world webbing out, reaching others-creating reactions, sometimes equal, sometimes opposite. We rush to say one life gone, but each of us is a world. And today a world has been lost.” I know Disney/Marvel won’t, but I sure wish they’d keep Drew Goddard. He made sure we had something to think deeply about; he made Daredevil much more than a money-making good time.
I played part II long after release so I was already aware of Joel's death, maybe that changed it all for me because instead of being all in with Ellie's revenge I was disgusted by it, I freaking hated how easy Abby's friends were killed because we get to know them and they just die like any NPC... It's indeed a powerful story, the last of us killing each other like we're nothing, consumed by revenge... A masterpiece tho not for everyone
I don't know if playing it after spoilers is why you reacted how you did, but your reaction is how normal people with empathy would be reacting to the game.
@@nathandts3401 yeah I mean I was pissed but Joel really took everything from Abby and I really loved her character and her relationship with the kid... Naughty dog knew exactly what they were doing!
@@berserkerscientist yup they were psychopaths but it was not the doctor who is to be blamed and how can you justify that you are correct and vaccine can't be made like out of thin air how can you say they can't make vaccine when they were at the verge of making it...
At the end of the day Joel killed people and got killed. I loved his character but I knew his actions had to come back on him right, wrong, or indifferent. He was killed on principle. In the TLOU world these factions operate like gangs. Eye for an eye.
Tbh the only thing I’d change from TLOU2 is make Joel’s death seem completely inevitable. They really dropped the ball taking him out of character just to get him to drop his guard with abbys group.
Bit of a retcon in your mind Miguel, but you're not the first to claim that! Please replay the first game. Over the seasons we actually spend only 9 days in Joel's company *in total* and he "drops the ball" around 27 times. He's only alive because Tess has been looking out for him; that's why he's so deferential to her. When Ellie tells them _"you guys are good at this"_ Joel admits _"it's called luck and it will run out"._ If *he* knows it, why do so many players not? The hunting lodge scene is completely in character. Furthermore, the probability of running into anyone who either knew his name from years ago or who even cares about him anymore when he's so far away from civilisation is probably lottery odds level unlikely. Most of them would be dead by now anyway and unlikely to risk the journey. He thinks he has no reason to be concerned. The TV show, however, supports your misconception of Joel's superhuman survival skills. That may cause the problem you describe in season 2 unless they twist it. Looking forward to find out!
@@cavalierwiththetruth examples? Because you saying he's dropped the ball doesn't mean he did. And 2nd there are multiple situations that show how smart and cautious Joel is and how the lodge is out of character. Leaving the family on the side of the road, spotting the ambush, getting informed from the two captured cannibals. He's definitely not a lucky idiot who made it 25 years into an apocolypse.
@@justadude3789 You could play it again and see for yourself that he is indeed a lucky idiot, but perhaps your rose-tinted glasses would remain too effective throughout. Sure, he occasionally makes a sensible choice, but his smart:stupid ratio is pretty low. Here's my _extensive_ evidence: *Day 1 in Joel's company* 1) After the Outbreak Day car crash, Joel breaks out of the car and is so engrossed in other car across the street that an infected grabs him and Tommy has to save him with a brick. 2) Carrying Sarah down the alleyway he runs straight toward another infected who Tommy has to save him from. Why not let Tommy run ahead? Minor issue compared to later on.
@@justadude3789 *Day 2* 3) When Tess & Joel are making their way through a dilapidated building he nearly brings the ceiling down on top of himself rather than carefully moving the filing cabinets out of the way. 4) Immediately after this, rather than carefully checking his exit, he gets grabbed by the trapped guy lying on the floor. That could easily have been an infected bite. 5) Joel slowly opens a door and is nearly shot by Robert. Ever watched a cop show? How do they do it in those? Joel's a fan of Curtis & Viper but has no idea. 6) Marlene goes through a door, Joel blindly follows her and is nearly stabbed by Ellie because, again, he didn't check his exit first.
Spoiler Alert! (Horrible Game) I loved Last of Us 1, but Last of Us 2 was very interesting to play and not in a positive way. I was seriously enjoying the story about Joel's death and Ellie trying to avenge his death, and Ellie's romance on the side. It could have been one of the best games ever. Unfortunately, towards the end, I was forced to play as Abby. I really liked Joel as a character, and when Abby killed him, I, of course, developed a serious dislike for Abby. Furthermore, Abby is just a pissed-off, unlikable character in general. Thus, I really didn't want to play as Abby and found myself just letting zombies kill me because I wanted to return to playing as Ellie, and it was more enjoyable to watch her die than to try to help her survive. I tried to play it out as Abby, hoping it would return to Ellie at any moment, but hours went by, and it still made me play as Abby until eventually I just said, "Screw it. I'm not enjoying this game at all, and I stopped playing altogether. I've played almost every rpg there is, and there is only one other game I have stopped playing halfway through. Thus, Last of Us 2 is one of the only games I rate as a 0 out of 10 since it was so unenjoyable that I didn't even finish it. The lesson here is NEVER FORCE THE PLAYER TO PLAY AS AN UNLIKABLE ANTAGONSIST, PLEASE. After, being so disappointed with Part 2, I don't recommend either of these games.
My biggest issue was the LOU2 was how the game was telling us that we should feel sympathy for Abby instead of us letting us grow to sympathize with her. They even gave her dad a literal "save the cat" moment. I could not have empathy for Abby because she was just not a likable character (my opinion). Everyone around her were (mostly) likable. Playing as her helped me have empathy for the people that Ellie killed trying to get to Abby, but not for Abby herself. I just got so fed up with the fact that naughty dog was telling me how I was supposed to feel but not really giving me any good reason to feel it.
Well, it’s impossible to make everyone love something/someone. Whatever you do, there’s always someone who didn’t like what we did. It’s unfortunate you couldn’t sympathize with Abby. But for me, TLOU Part 2 is the best video game I’ve ever played!
@Eddy S. Tandya I'm not trying to take away from anyone else's experience. And I did have empathy for Abby. I have empathy for everybody. I absolutely could not sympathize with her and what she did. It also doesn't help that I think Joel was absolutely right in Saving Ellie. Abby's father was wrong for trying to kill her. All that being said, I absolutely loved the game up until I had to play as Abby. I can totally see why someone who doesn't have an issue with the Abby storyline taking the game is one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest.
Exactly! I might could have felt more for her had we played her part first and got to know who she was and grew to like her before she brutally murders my favorite game character lol. Doing it the way it was in the game didn’t work because by that point I hated her ass lol
@@joshnizzle I agree. Even with that, they still could have brought us to sympathize with her if she was just a likable person. The game tried to force a comparison between her and Joel when there was none. Abby had a fairly decent like where she was. She had friends. She had a future. Joel had his heart ripped out at the beginning of the first game and was closed off to any sense of joy...until he met Ellie. We got nothing like that with Abby. I really hope the writers of the show take some liberties with Abby's character at least make her more likable and relatable.
Yea I can't stand this game.. I didn't care about Ellie or Abby by the end. They could've both killed eachother and i'd feel nothing which is not good for a 40 hour game. I love depressing shit, 1 of my favorite shows is the Leftovers and the difference between The Leftovers and Last of Us 2 is interesting characters. Abby bored me to death and felt nothing for her. Only reason I card about Ellie at all was for the last game. Ellie/Joel made the game and without them together I feel nothing. This game is not a Masterpiece I don't care how philosophical you want to make the story look like. If they took the Abby game play out i'd like it more.
i have to wonder if maybe the smarter approach for the show would be to introduce Abby earlier, but in such a way that the audience can't clue in to her relevance to the Ellie/Joel story line. so that viewers don't start to connect the dots until shortly before she kills Joel. make us care for (& relate to) her BEFORE she does what will make everyone hate her. this was arguably Druckman's big mistake with the game; it wasn't that he forced us to play as Abby, it was WHEN he did. because the concept of the different/opposing viewpoint was brilliant. i am still not quite yet ready to play part 2, because the structure is infuriating. if they follow the same delivery progression as the game, they WILL LOSE A TON of viewers, guaranteed, and that will just make the show a lot less successful.
you are absolutely correct handled properly it would have been a great twist. so far the writing in the tv show has been top notch i'll be shocked if they don't handle the plot points in part 2 in a better way
Question. Would you want to watch the film 'Shawshank Redemption' if, after Clancy Brown beats the inmate to death, the next forty minutes was solely following him around, maybe a home where his wife belittles him, maybe a sibling, so you can sympathize that the only way he can feel like a man is to be cruel and torture these inmates? Not sure I would. Would you want a Star Wars game where you play as Vader, and get some tacked on backstory that 'justified' his actions with the youngling students in Revenge of the Sith? would that feel like a rewarding masterpiece? Don't get me wrong, it's a well thought out, valid premise, but I'm just not sure I can buy into it.
Funny thing is Game of Thrones does basically this: And the difference is they don't treat Joffrey or Cersei as good people. That's really the crux of things. It's not trying to get you to sympathize with them, it's trying to recontextualize them as good people. If you don't buy into that: Good, it means you're at least not a morally abhorrent person because there's a *reason* the game tried to do this, and it has nothing to do with the writer wanting to explore themes. During the making of Uncharted 4, sexual harasser Robert Cogburn was given a polite leave from the company after one of his victims went public and metoo'd him. Cogburn was a rampant problem enabled by Neil Druckmann, writer of TLOU2, and the former VP of Naughty Dog at the time who was the best friend of Druckmann. Together they fired Cogburn's victims. The VP and Cogburn had to leave the company because *Sony* HR was contacted, IE the victim went over Naughty Dog's heads on this so it couldn't be kept private anymore, but Neil Druckmann continues to uphold the blacklist and has a statement on the Naughty Dog website attempting to name and shame the victim. To him, Cogburn, the VP, and himself are all good people and he was correct in firing the victims of sexual harassment because they were a threat to good people and himself by having the gall to not want to be harassed. With this context, watch the video again and see if their moral defenses of Abby would be applicable to Neil Druckmann. The author makes no consideration for how their defenses are almost exclusively for people like Druckmann, Cogburn, Weinstein, etc.
I have nothing against people liking this game, but calling it a masterpiece? Really? Have our standards dropped so far that a game that does something unconventional, even though it was done poorly a lot of the time, is deserved of the title "masterpiece"? People like this scare me, man. I'm not saying this game doesn't have merit, or that it is impossible to enjoy it, but there is a huge difference between something being flawed, but good and calling it a masterpiece. This says more about the people who made the video than about the game, to be completely hoenst.
So what you've just done is take an opinion on something subjective like what's considered a "masterpiece" and inserted your own opinion but offered it up like it was a fact. Like any art or media, it's subjective. I would like to know what things you felt were done badly in this game. What were your main issues with it?
I think the points you make are valid, but they also seemed really obvious to me. I kind of guessed Joel would die early (or possibly it was spoiled for me) and it would be a revenge story. And the truth is I always thought of Joel as the villain of the first game. When he died, I didn’t think it was an unjust murder, but the inevitable consequences of his own actions. I didn’t hate Abby, I figured right away that she was getting revenge for the hospital killing and Ellie was making a mistake by continuing the cycle of revenge. I guess what I’m saying is that if the game was trying to set me up for a gut punch, it didn’t work because Ellie was clearly wrong from the beginning and so I couldn’t really empathize with her. I wanted to not kill people but that wasn’t an option. Still, I didn’t hate the game. I loved Lev and his relationship to Abby.
Yeah, I think the game design operates under the assumption that you, like Ellie, love Joel more than life itself. The emotional rollercoaster they’re trying to take you on only really works if you can empathize with Ellie’s intense love for Joel and the indescribable pain she feels from having him taken from her in such a sudden, brutal way. You’re also the first person I’ve ever heard of who seemed to like Abby more than Joel (or at least didn’t get that mad at her). Mad props.
I love this channel and it’s creator but I disagree. The game isn’t challenging you the player because the game is too inconsistent. Small example: in the game some enemies can surrender to you, which is a very interesting Idea since your playing revenge getting monsters so then surrendering should question what the player should be doing with ppl who just wanna live. But that idea is not properly executed because they’ll just say sike and attack you again anyways which actually validates you killing everyone. If every enemy character will try to kill you then there isn’t a moral question to keep them alive, you’d just be making it harder for you to play. And the game as way too many good or even great ideas that they just don’t get right.
I disagree that everyone agrees its a masterpiece on a technical level. Visually sure, but the gameplay wasn’t innovative at all and because the story wasn’t really doing it for me and it was so long, I got quite bored fast. The final scene in the rattler compound showed some innovation, but that was right at the end.
I said it back then I'll see it now, if they had done a whole game just with Abby, and not give away her connection to Joel whatsoever, and just playing the whole game with Abby as the hero, that would have been better. Then on the third game make the connection to Joel and her hatred towards him and then let what happens happen in the third game. That way we would have been emotionally invested in Abby, almost as much as Joel and I think they would have gotten across what they were trying to do better.
Ellie sparing Abby was ultimately the best ending. She’s already scarred Abby for life, killed all her friends and anyone she’d even call family other than Lev, killed the love of her life, gave her big permanent scars like the one on Abby’s cheek towards the end. Abby only has one thing: Lev, just like Joel only had Ellie, and that’s her reason to go on, her purpose, just like Joel’s. Abby ends the game realizing that the world isn’t black or white, and that every person is both good and bad to specific capacities, and really just trying to protect the ones they love. Unless you’re some weird pedo cannibal creep like David, then you can go get torn apart by a pack of clickers. She even has somewhat expressed regret towards killing Joel, as it didn’t fill the void left by her fathers death. Just like it wouldn’t have filled Ellie’s void if she killed Abby. Ellie inadvertently saved Abby and Lev’s lives at the beach, which is partially the reason Abby didn’t want to fight her (excluding that she was extremely malnourished and tortured for months). Abby also realized the cycle ends with one person choosing to either forgive, or to walk away from the violence. She spared Ellie’s life, and Ellie spares hers, because at the end of the day for Ellie it isn’t about Abby or being immune or any of that. It’s about the hurt and distance that her and Joel went through, and the painstaking realization that if she had tried to forgive Joel earlier, or at least worked on fixing things with him, she wouldn’t have suffered with as much guilt and shame as she did after he died. Although she had the right to feel that way, she herself knows she loves Joel and is in some sense grateful that he did what he did, even through her guilt of not being able to save the world, her life still matters. This game hurt a lot of people, and it’s okay that people are divided on it, it’s okay to love it or hate it or not care, as long as you’re not just some dumb troll who’s caught on the hype of hating whatever the internet deems hate worthy. I love this game and the first one, and if they release part 3, I’ll be there to experience it. Most people will never read this comment, so if you got to this point, thanks.
So glad you pointed out that it was only about Ellie & Joel's relationship in the end - most people missed that and think Ellie forgave Abby. Abby could have been anyone to Ellie, it really didn't matter to her, but watching over both their shoulders as either "guardian angel Joel" or "guardian angel Jerry" you might have felt they could have been good friends under different circumstances. That's part of the reason the fights are so gruelling.
They hate it because one of the best characters ever was killed in an instant moment and it's more of the same revenge and vengeance bs plot from the first game like it has some kind of weight or meaning to it. Dark, bleak storytelling with nihilistic writing from the beta cuck in charge of the sequel. Cutscenes don't make sense they are poorly rendered and Neil is trying to make everything about himself and Ellie/Abby. Joel was a saint he did everything out of good reasons. The people he crossed paths with would of done much worse to them if he simply let them go in the original. Got arrested and then escorted out of a hospital after being knocked out unconscious trying to save Ellie from a drowned death when he was trying to breath life into her. She should be grateful. Fought against a terrorist organization, beat up enemies and killed zombies. For me that's the real hero of the franchise. He lost his daughter, his wife and his survival partner. He went through so much difficult stuff only to be thrown under the bus in Part II. Neil is always trying to cater to the screaming feminists and misandrists he is shameless. I felt so deeply invested in Joel's realistic & brave character but the sequel doesn't care about that apparently it's so odd. The direction is terrible. Play as Joel's stubborn cargo and play as his sadistic torturer & murderer. Bruce Straley is the reason why this franchise worked. The endless cycle of violence that Neil is trying to show is just unnecessary and completely overdone at this point in video games. Like watching paint dry.
Exactly! I always tell people that it seems they hate this story for the really creative and impressive tactics Drucker uses to get us to feel the opposite of the theme, so that when finally drive home the theme through a clever bit of engineering empathy, that theme hits home that much harder. You feel Ellie's hate in the beginning, but by the end, you're drained. You don't want to continue, but you have to, because Ellie is relentless. It was so well done that this game is now my GOAT...
@@rikorobinson You said opposite to the theme. Yet he did it poorly to the point of making his employees want to bail because of how bad he treated them and the story
Don't know why people say "it's a shit story". This game had much more characters than TLOU1. It even had a longer story & better plot. I think both of these games are masterpiece. Those who hate TLOU2, I could relate to you in 2020 but when I revisisted the game it changed me completely, maybe because I could handle the sadness this time. But I still prefer TLOU 1 over part 2 because of more Joel & Ellie interaction. TLOU 1 - 10/10 (perfect) TLOU 2 - 9.7/10 (I wanted to play as Tommy so -0.3) I still don't know how they managed to make such a great story. Huge applauds to the developers. Joel & Ellie have become my favourite characters of all time.
Oh yeah revenge bad what a good plot. TLOU2 is perfect test of persons emotional maturity and awareness. A lot of deaths are done for just cheap emotional shock. Cheap manipulation of a player by inserting stuff like dog or pregnant women. Wouldn't it be sad if the dog you played with died 20min later? You go trough the game killing everyone like it's a Rambo movie. At the end you don't even get the revenge and somehow the game decides now is a good time to stop. They want Ellie to suffer for her actions but Abbie seems fine after dooming her whole group of friends. Fucking her friends husband pretty much. Etc etc. There are plenty of videos done by smart people who perfectly explain why this game has not a really great story. First game treated player with respect. Allowed you to think for yourself. It was up to you to decide how you see the ending. It never tells you that Joel's decision is bad. TLOU2 just manipulates your emotions and beats you with stick constantly because you will not know revenge is bad unless you get a good smack.
Everyone went into Part 2 thinking about playing Ellie and Joel again. That’s what killed off so many people. But the game was meant to be like life. Unpredictable. I loved part 2. I feel Part 2 had more of Deeper meaning as well. Part 1 was about mainly them surviving. Part 2 showed humanity of surviving.
I agree with all of this ...I love the game too however...I could never bring myself to replay this one... this game made me feel things I never thought I'd feel in a game by the end there were moments the game forces you to play that still haunt me
@@edgarvivar87 the transition from Abby pointing gun to Abby 3 years earlier was not a good choice they intensified the whole situation and then suddenly dropped it by a huge margin not even a steep decline, they should have added more in between just after she points the gun on her. P.S. I didn't feel it this way tho, it was okay imo
@@edgarvivar87 That's kinda the point. That means the devs did their job. To make you feel those emotions, means the story was hitting home for you. It's gonna hit everyone differently, but it means you were invested in what was going on.
Sorry, but you're completely wrong as to why people hate this game. People hate this game because it was a poorly written piece of fan fiction. It completely betrays the character of Joel and turns him into a moron. There's no way he would have gotten himself into that situation with Abby that resulted in his death. And then the game absolutely trolls you by FORCING you to play as Abby just for the lols. I can honestly tell you that no, nobody wanted Abby to live. Everyone wanted her to die because she's a shit character. And then, to top it all off, Neil Druckman flat out lied and intentionally misled his customers by intentionally releasing trailers that had an aged Joel in scenes long after he was dead in the game and making it appear as if he was the main character once again.
Thinking this game is a “masterpiece” is one of the most delusional opinions one can have. It’s pathetic how people make excuses for this insult of a story.
The problem I had with the story of TLOU 2 was HOW Abby killed Joel. We love Joel but I could understand Abby wanting revenge but I can’t understand Abby torturing Joel. A long drawn out painful death in front of his daughter figure. Then playing as her and painting her as a character that wouldn’t do that. The how didn’t match the character at any other point. It’s hard to sympathize with her because of how she killed him.
remember that time joel bashed someone's head in who never threatened him in any way... oh ya...that never happened abbey is a psycho, and her dad was a piece of shit too
People that say they don't "understand" why Abby kill Joel the way she did really are just to hangout to Joel and can not even understand why he did in the first game. Joel just didn't kill Abby's dad, he destroy the opportunity to try to create a cure something that the Fireflies were telling people they were pursuing to save the world and killed Marlene the leader of the Fireflies. So Joel no just killed his dad, but robbed Abby and his friends to have a purpose in life, been part of the Fireflies and saving the world something that they thought they were doing. And it doesn't matter how many theories you read about how the cure could work or not, what matter is what the character thinks. And Owen said it clear when he deserted the Wolfs, he was tired of fighting an enemy he didn't hate for a land he didn't care, he just wanted to go back to Fireflies and have a purpose.
yeah this game is still far from a masterpiece, the story is not well structured, it has the worst endings in videogame history, character choices make zero sense in the end of the game, and there's a huge discrepancy between cutscene Ellie and gameplay Ellie, if people think this game is hated just because of Abby and or that the game "makes you feel bad" then you're just not seeing the whole picture.
@@jrich6660 no it really didn't, ellie stopping dead on track for her revenge to have a "farm up north" only to just go back to have a murder boner again only to lose it at the last second made no sense, her girlfriend abandoning a perfectly functional, easily defendable space to live in a POSTAPOCALYPTIC WORLD made even less sense, and don't give me the "it's the home she built with Ellie so it hurts to live there" bullsh*t, there were there MONTHS hardly anytime at all for it to become a place of "painful memories", the game's pacing is the worst part, had this game alterned between Ellie and Abby instead of half the game with Ellie and Half with Abby would've made Abby more relatable and not as hated, the last chapter feels really tacked on as if it was supposed to be DLC but added on last minute, I could go on but I don't want to make a bible out of this comment.
@@omarreyes7626 What? LOL Explain to me how it was a perfectly functional family when Ellie was CLEARLY struggling to move on? D Explain to me how did she stop "dead on her tracks for revenge" when she had no idea where Abby went after her fight in Seattle? Did you even read the journal where she was suffering with PTSD for MONTHS? Did you even HEAR the cutscene where she couldn't EAT or SLEEP? Do you realize how they made her body skinner to visible show that she was struggling to move on. I don't know what game you were playing, but it clearly wasn't this one because it wasn't "perfectly functional." She went because of guilt and believed these problems would go away if she got her revenge. As I said, I don't know what game you were playing because it wasn't TLOU 2. This is enough of a motivating factor to for her to go look for Abby and you're saying it doesn't make sense. LOL
@@jrich6660 No, It doesn't. And I don't think it ever will. I'll only point out one terrible plot point to make it easy: Tommy immediately giving away to a group of armed strangers information about himself, his brother AND JACKSON, knowing damn well there bandits and worse exist. There is absolutely no justification for Tommy's actions and Joel's situation here. This along with a multitude of other poorly executed plots/themes sadly soured what would have been a generation defining game. And we are all worse off because of it..
@@dankmeme682 You mean Tommy's name Abby already knew before arriving in Jackson? A name Joel shouted when he asked Tommy for ammo while they were fighting off infected with Tommy? Giving their names well before they knew Abby had friends? I've seen so many people say this and it's obvious you guys didn't pay attention to the dialog. lol. Want to try something else? Because this didn't work.
Nope, bad writing and dragged out dialog. The game looks Phenomenal though. Jole Being killed off doesn't bother me, it's how he's killed off and how stupid Abby is.
The last of us 2 ohh man what to say how the creators fucked up the story and Joel character jesus i really wasted my money on this one whole game was on. Revenge and in the end she let abby go wtf? For me clearly game was ended when Joel return from hospital with ellie other than that its soo stupid game
It’s interesting to see even though Ellie is immune to the infection, she loses her humanity as she is consumed by hatred and grief instead
Ellie instantly relating to Abby without knowing it by way of revenge.
Abby, later relating to Joel without knowing it by way of becoming protector to, and finding love for, a child she wanted nothing to do with.
It’s a story about “other people’s shoes”.
Loved it.
Ellie finger will grow back because she have fungus inside her.
@@chrismatteson1312 Very Well Said
By the time the end comes.. it’s almost like Ellie is the bad guy. I was exhausted by the endless revenge tour
shes not immune, the infection is still in her shes just not turning
What really killed me inside was that Joel's last thought was that Ellie was next.
Joel died thinking Ellie hated him
@@pugz_better thanks for missing the point
They made up in the end plus he saw ellie scream out to him to get up and fight, so I doubt he thought that before he died.
Why did you feel the need to do that😭😭
@@pugz_better no he didn’t, he died after she’d stated she wants to try and forgive him and reconcile. Did you see the ending?
I find it really really bizarre that people hate on Joel for not giving Ellie over even though she ends up like a daughter to him but have no problem with Abby’s dad not answering Marlene when he gets asked if he would give up Abby. What dad would willingly give up their daughter, knowing she’s going to die for something that might not even work? 🤷🏼♀️
Nah he could have saved the world
@@storm-shadow1237 This is not knowable. There was only unknown potential for something that's never been done before.
@@storm-shadow1237 ya or you know killed her but high chance her child would be immune. I'm no scientist but I'm pretty sure the right play would be insemination followed by harvesting the fetuses.
@@ryanmurphy9896 The game never presents us with that argument; it never shows us the Fireflies trying and failing to make a cure, Joel never questions the efficacy on a cure, etc. The game presents the scenario as If Joel gives up Ellie then the world is saved. Everything else is post-hoc rationalization that try to justify Joel's selfish motivations. What he did was wrong, but understandable by most.
Joel doomed the world for his own selfish needs; after years of being a broken, closed off man, he finally allowed himself to love again and he wasn't about to lose another loved one like he did Sarah; the pain was too great.
Listen, I get it; I understand why he did what he did and can't honestly say that I know I could have done different. But it was still the wrong thing to do.
I feel like a scene where if Abby and Ellie actually have dialogue between each other there could be some really good scenes and conflicts
I think if that were to happen, none of the mess would have occurred. They both needed to be emotionally blocked (death of their fathers) for the game to have happened the way it did.
I guess maybe in Part 3 this may happen.
Would of humanized Abby n might have saved her character for a lot of people. She never ask Joel or Ellie why her father had to die.
I think that’s great content for Part 3. They have plenty to talk about.
I have this theory that Abby is immune in the same way that Ellie is. And that her father knew this, but refused to operate on his own daughter, and lied to her about it, hiding her immunity. Making him much more like Joel than previously known.
A doctor alone likely wouldn’t have the knowledge of fungus to create a cure. So I also like they idea that a mycologist was helping him. They had a falling out when the Dr refused to operate on Abby. Making him a living firefly doctor that Ellie and Abby have to find together. All before finding out from them that Abby is immune. And then we get a choice one who’s life to lay down for the cure.
@@JBurnz001 Abby knew. I'm playing tlou2 for the first time right now and I'm at the beginning of Abby's part.
At the hospital where her dad talks with Marlene about Joel and Ellie, Abby enters the room with food for him and she obviously heard the conversation. She knew what's going on with the vaccine etc.
While playing through part 2, even though you’re controlling Ellie, you’re still Joel. You love Ellie like a child and you have to watch your child lose everything because she keeps making bad decisions. You watch her life spiral out of control and you’re powerless to intervene. By the end of the game, you’re disappointed in her, just like a dad would be. In fact, you’re the one who taught Ellie how to be a killer, you’re the one who turned her into a monster.
Double thumbs up if I could! I'm so glad someone else recognised this extraordinarily clever device! This is why the Ellie vs Abby fight scenes are so traumatic and conflicting for players with any understanding of Joel's character - he never wanted Ellie to be in these situations. Anyone who felt angry that Ellie doesn't kill Abby never understood their relationship. You are playing as Ellie's "guardian angel Joel" watching over her after death.
As i was beating Abby to a pulp at the end of the game I was like noooo Ellie stopppp yet i had to keep going. it was rough , i cried from relief when ellie let her go.
@@crystalaguayo3510 same. Especially considering Abby spared her life twice. I was just like "ellie wtf are you doing?!?!"
@@bobbycigarillo ellie should have killed abby last of us 2 is pretty bad it wastes charaters like a pokemon card and abby is shit theres a reason theres 10 hour clips of abby dying thee game couldve been alot better if they were consistence with how they wanted to tell the story it wouldve been bettter and the message was beaten over our head with a golf club and the fact they try to make the people who killed joel likeable is retarded i do agree joel should have died in the second but they wasted it i agree with moistcrikitals take on the game alot they try to make villians likeable how im i supposed to care for abby whens she is a giant douche bag
Nah
THIS is why i love the last of us part 2. its crazy how much that game revealed about the world. i have never seen more hate around a game, and so many people sent threats and just said awful things about the creators. u should see the stuff they say about neil druckman on the tlou2 reddit server. all these people saying the same thing "the message of the game was so dumb, we obviously know not to do these evil things", while at the same time, theyre constantly proving that message wrong by hating so much. its genuinely baffling. people are so blind to whats right in front of them. i think someones response to playing tlou2 really can tell u a lot about that person. the game is incredible to me, and i find it amazing how well it was able to immerse u and TRULY make u feel like the characters. the level of hate around joels death and abbys character is truly just a testament to that. they made u feel the same level of grief that ellie felt, the only difference is that ellie was able to move on by the end, and the players werent. incredible game, and id 100% argue that its the greatest video game ever made.
I just finished a play though of Part 1 with my girlfriend this morning. We immediately went into Part 2 and she started bawling when Joel sat down and sang to Ellie. It was just hours ago in Part 1 when he said he'd never sing for her. Seeing the strained relationship between them and how Joel reached out to her really made us love these stories so much more. She doesn't know what is coming up, but I am excited to experience it again with her.
Awesome job on the video. Your video essays are always top notch and thoughtful.
Aw c'mon man, you gotta let us know how she reacted to *the thing* that she didn't know would happen
PLEASE SOMEONE reply to me when we tell how his girlfriend reacted to the game
well how did she take it? lol
any updates
How much did she cry for that one guys death
Damn, this was SO good; had to stop it twice to send the link to a few friends so they could watch along. I wish I could put into words what Ryan & the SC team did here. Very insightful video, awesome work everyone! 🙏
Agreed. So glad someone made a video on it
I've just finished TLOU part 2 and though intellectually I appreciate what they've done, emotionally I can't like it. Who would? The part in which I cried the most, after his death, was when she lost even what Joel had left for her - the ability to play the guitar. I understand that this is what made her realize how much she had lost and finally let Abby go, but in my head cannon she found some finger prosthetics so she could play again.
Intellectually, the WLF leaving Ellie and Tommy alive after torturing Joel to death in front of them is completely ret*rded. And that's not the only ret*rded part. There's plenty.
In my head p2 isn't cannon
Hopefully you and those who feel the same can take the story as an opportunity to grow. I hate to sound preachy, but maybe you don't always have to like the way you feel on an emotional level. In this story bad things happen and it sucks. But life is like that. It's always like that at some point for everyone.
@@BryanSalyersXDI just played A Plague Tale: Requiem and in combination with Innocence there were similar feelings. I love hard tragedies like that. Just like you said, it gives you a chance to grow.
@@goblinky @BryanSalyersXD I think you guys did not get what I meant. When I say I appreciate it intellectually but I don't like it emotionally it's exactly that - I understand that the game wanted to make me feel the void and they succeeded in an impressive manner. Maybe don't take everything you read as a chance to attack people? Maybe try to understand what they are saying and respect their thoughts? That is an opportunity to grow.
I really wish I could witness the alternate universe version of the last of us part 1 that started with Abby’s story, and see if people would have the same feelings when part 2 forced you to switch to Ellie after she has murdered everyone Abby cares about
I mean the anger problem would probably be less severe. However I don't think anyone would be very appreciative of Abby trying to avenge his child killer of a father.
@@ollehkacb his child killer father? Abby is a girl. A straight girl at that. What are you talking about? Just bc a women has muscles, she’s a man?
@@AB-ee5tb I misspoke.
@@AB-ee5tb clearly a typo bro... chill out
@@ollehkacb sorry for no aking please to a little girl before trying to save the world guys.
Serieosly, what are they gonna do if she say no? Let her go to a world were she could probably die tomorrow?
For me, it’s just an incredibly flawed game.
They remove the best part of the first game - Joel and Ellie dynamic - but new characters they introduced aren’t nearly as interesting. Case in point, 2 years later, I only remember Abby. Ellie’s girlfriend, her ex, the boy Abby travels with - I don’t even remember their names. Tommy was also wasted in part 2, I feel.
Also, the things this game tries to say about vengeance and perspective aren’t exactly groundbreaking. What’s worse, they don’t make sense within the context of the gameplay. When you kill hundreds of random NPC’s in your way, “vengeance bad” theme doesn’t work and it comes off as a stupid B movie where the main character kills a bunch of henchman but spares the main villain because “I’m not like you”.
Also, despite all the darkness, there is a lot of charm to the first game. Last of us 2 is joyless. With Joel gone, Ellie being miserable and new characters lacking in charisma, the game is sometime a slog to get through.
yup
Abby & the fireflies would have worker so much better as DLC :\
We all bought TLoU2 for Ellie and Joel bc that's What they sold to us, abby Is not a bad character but we didn't pay to see her
@@Fabrimgg but Abby is a bad character, she is shallow minded and never pronounce deep words, her personality is basically "Abby angry Abby smash" in both senses
How can we enjoy the joel and ellie show part 2 without Joel ? 😫💦💦
When Joel sings in part 2 and teaches Ellie all the things that he said he would teach her in the first game Oww man tears chills hit me so hard
Also I really hate the constant use of flashbacks in this game..The first game was so present focused because there was no time for thinking about the past. There are zombies and hunters lurking around and a brutal military dictatorship
Then lou 2 roles around having flashbacks within flash backs like a Shonen anime
@@BobbyFischer0000
why would seeing other aspects mean anything? Are you slow?
@@BobbyFischer0000
yeah. last of us 2 sold less than red dead redemption 2.
Last of Us Part 2 has a heavy theme of humanity and how everyone is in their own experience. Right down to when you kill an “enemy” and the other enemies call out the ones killed by their name. They knew each other, they survived together, they probably shared their deepest thoughts whilst hiding form the infected. And still, they were in Ellie’s way who we understand why she’s in a killing rampage.
I love this story so much.
They made us HATE Abby, and then sent Ellie on the exact same journey.
yeah ofcourse such an amazing message about humanity :D
Ellie: *murders many , many people , killing dogs and murdering a pregnant woman *
also Ellie: *lets Abby live just because *
I dont know about you but in my opinion this doesnt make sense...I would have liked more if she would just have killed Abby cause in my eyes she already has lost her humanity and her showing mercy to Abby didnt make any difference
@@HK-gm8pe All the killing was causing Ellie to lose her humanity completely, choosing to not take revenge on Abby breaks the cycle of violence and gives Ellie a glimmer of hope that she can forgive and find peace.
“Heavy theme”, a revenge story is deep? Dude play other games with revenge story. It’s better than this lol
@@jackjohn4156 You are wrong.
The storytelling of TLOU 2 is undoubtedly interesting and creative. Unfortunately, it just isn’t as good as part 1 was. If Joel’s death had occurred halfway through the story, with part 1 being Abby’s successful quest for revenge, part 2 being Ellie’s nearly successful quest for revenge, and a short 3rd act requiring them to work together to survive and then reluctantly go their separate ways, I think it would have been much more well received. Killing Joel so early and then having the rest of the game lead to an unsatisfying conclusion is why the game gets so much criticism.
The only thing I dislike more than the childish critiques of the game are these faux intellectual critiques which are really just as stupid.
@@joelhenry5489 lmao how is this faux intellectual? it’s a pretty straightforward critique, and not inaccurate about the pacing issues in this game. pretty sure you just don’t like people criticizing stuff you like.
@@ForlorniusThere wouldnt be any revenge story if Joel didnt die.
Man, I LOVE these thesis videos you've been doing more recently. You are just as good at these as you are the breakdown and theory videos. Please keep making these. I think these are actually you're best work.
TLOU2 was an experience like nothing I’ve watched/played/read before. Emotionally it was on another level. Was genuinely painful to play at times, and I felt drained at the end. It’s just sooooooo good.
Play death stranding. Now thats an actual experience.
No.
I hate last of us 2 because it isn’t last of us 2. It is Abbey’s story or whatever you wish to call it.
Last of Us is about Joel and Ellie and the complexity of their relationship, from cargo to caretaker to father making decisions for a daughter who is incapacitated. That is the story. It’s not rocket science or an extension of wish fulfillment. It is a story with a beginning, middle and end.
To make a sequel is a continuation of that story with that primary point. Instead they told us the same story more or less from a different character’s pov. They killed one of our favorite protagonist and turned one of our beloved characters into a inhumane killer. Wow, edgy and stupid all at once with great animation.
If that is how you wish to enjoy your entertainment buck, bless you. It is bad writing by a team that told the story it wanted to tell and then we all have to pretend there is a sequel.
How can I enjoy the Joel and Ellie show part 2 without Joel ??? How dare they.
I didn’t play this at launch due to everyone saying it was bad. I just finished it an hour ago and it’s my favorite game.
The ending scene with Joel and Ellie on the porch is the only time i shed a tear while playing a game. Joel truly loved her.
Bro it's crazy how much people hate on this, to this day has the best graphics of any game and game play is still amazing
@@doom453 Gamers need to get their happy Marvel endings.
I did the same thing! Finished it 30 mins ago & loved it
I always thought Joels death was perfect. Dont get me wrong I love a good dramatic death. But thats all we get. We dont get any realistic, sudden and brutal deaths and i loved that it shocked me to my core. The video says it all.
I get that but still, Joel deserved better. I don't mind the overall story or that Joel dies but merely how it was executed. You're telling me that the same guy who ran some helpless person over because he doubted his intentions, would openly state his name in the middle of a room filled with strangers knowing how many people he has wronged and how many might be out for revenge. It just doesn't feel like something Joel would do.
I feel like the biggest problem I have with the story of tlou2 is the fact that, at several points in the game, the characters are driven by the plot. The characters do something they would've never done otherwise just so the plot can happen.
Another example of this is when Abby has dina by the throat and decides not to kill her even though she and Ellie killed her entire family/friends, because a kid gives her a strange look. When earlier she had no problem killing her former WLF friends and boss because they killed a girl she met merely days ago. Now keep in mind that when you play as Abby walking through the WFL base it is clear that everyone likes her and looks up to her and presumably she likes them back.
Or when Ellie had Abby at her mercy at the end of the game but decided to cut her down and have a fair fight when she had no problem beating and torturing her friends earlier.
I guess the main weak point of the story of the second game is inconsistency in character to serve the plot.
@@Sadnan2.0 he didn't deserve better he is probably the best father ever but the deeds he has done are so brutal that you can't say that their judgement would come with mercy...
@@Anonymous-st3gy I know, I wasn't saying that Abby did him wrong but that the writer could've given him a more honourable death. What happened in tlou2 was basically Joel doing a woppsie and acting against his survivalistic instincts. For the plot to happen he just needed to die, it didn't have to be a stupid death.
A better way to go about it would've been if he died because he didn't trust anyone, like the one thing that kept him alive throughout all these years causes his death, ironically.
@@Sadnan2.0 what do you mean by honorable death, was Marlene and Abby's father got honourable death for trying to make a vaccine that could have potentially saved millions of life, no they were shot right in the fucking head....then how can you expect the same for joel, but one thing I would have like to see is more light on joel at the end of the game..
I think you wanted to see more from joel..
@@Anonymous-st3gy as I said I didn't mind joel dying. What I do mind is how he died.
An honourable death is what I would wish for since he is one of my favourite characters of all time.
Also honourable doesn't mean he has to carry the bomb out of town so no one else gets hurt all dark knight style, but even something like him dying trying to protect the ones he loves, you know, kinda died as he has lived typa thing.
Even if it's not honourable I wouldn't be as mad as I am when I see the most untrusting person do a stupid beginner's mistake as if he hasn't lived through 24+ years of human deprivaty and desperation.
The Last of Us 2 is great also because the authors did not make a smooth fan service sequel for money - they created a raw, heart-breaking, "fuck you" kind of story, knowing that not everyone is going to enjoy it, but it's going to move the industry forward and open new grounds for can be portrayed in AAA games
For that reason alone I will always respect the whole team behind it
Couldn't agree more. The Last of Us Part II is polarizing but for all the right reasons (imo simply! lol) since it show cases what humanity will do for its love ones, for survival in a dark gritty world. Man I can't wait for Part III.
Yes! It would've been so easy for them to coast on adventures with Joel and Ellie. But they went in a much bolder direction and the game will age really well because of it.
“Move industry forward” and “great”. Dude what are you smoking?
@@SeanKelly253 Did you calculate the percentage yourself?
One scene I like in the Last of Us Part 2 is Joel telling Ellie he would save her all over again at the end of the game. It has a double meaning. The more obvious of which is Joel would do anything in his power to save Ellie regardless of the consequences. Joel straight up says this, this is self explanatory. But the hidden meaning is how we have just experienced the entire game and now know how everything plays out for the game's massive cast of characters. I think a part of us all knew at some point Joel thought something like this. But certifying it as the game had just presented all it had to offer is an interesting thing to do. We wonder, 'would Joel's answer change if he knew all the pain and grief he caused many characters', and it becomes clear, he is solely focused on him and Ellie's relationship and nothing else. We'll never know, but would he do it again if the character had witnessed all we had seen throughout the game. Overall, a very well constructed piece of dramatic irony by putting this flash back scene in this final section. This scene leaves us with this huge hidden 'what if' question, while the scene that follows allows us to wonder where Ellie goes from where she's standing.
Well said
i bought TLOU2 but only played a little when it came out cuz i was working too much to play...time went on and never got around to it (altho i absolutely loved the first game).
I heard ppl hated the story and didnt know why, checking out this breakdown would of put me in the loving the game camp. I always love the idea of the villain is a hero in their own story, and basically what i get from this breakdown is we have 2 heroes/villains comflicting with eachother (the hardest type of writing to do). I can understand why ppl would be pissed cuz i loved Joel too, but i had a hunch he was going to die before the game came out.
this now makes me want to play it though and see it all for myself.
I think the point was that Joel did some terrible things to survive and wasn't a typical good person..... We loved his character because he was a protector and he was damaged.... The TV show even goes as far to say he tried to kill himself.... He's not treated as untouchable by the second game, he's a victim of the post apocalyptic world.... And we hate Abby for it but then to "walk a mile in her shoes" and see the events that led her to doing what she did you can't help but empathize....(or at least I couldn't!)
Empathy cannot be forced. It can't, that's just not natural or human. That's why Last of Us 2 didn't work for me. I don't mind playing as Abby at all... I just don't feel strongly for her at any point. Joel was a morally grey character and the game didn't do half as much to redeem hin as they tried to do for Abby... but we still empathize and love Joel. That was organic. Abby's POV redemption was very hamfisted and not really that engaging to begin with.
The thing that Naughty Dog didn't account for was that people STILL wouldn't want to play as Abby WHILE they were going through with it. A lot of people just went with the motions to see how her story would get back to Ellie.
The game TRIED to MAKE YOU do a lot of things. And for some, it didn't work. In my case, I could clearly see what the game was TRYING to make me do, and all I could see is the writer telling me what to think and how to feel. And that took me out of the story.
yup
you're actually missing the entire point, it was never intended to FORCE you to feel any type of way. You felt disgusted playing Abby because all you wanted was revenge, which was the exact same feelings Abby had on her road to killing Joel for his selfish yet understanding actions in TLOU1, thus showing why the human cycle of lack of empathy ends up getting us no where in the end. The characters matured and came to that realization by the end fight, but not everyone can
@AyoShaba I'm not missing anything. I'm literally explaining to you that ALL I could see was the writer TELLING ME all that same stuff that you just wrote. The story is designed to FORCE you to hate Abby... so says.... the WRITER. They just don't use the word 'force,' but they decided to make this story specifically for all those reasons.
Some people... Ayo, just can't see when they're so blatantly being handled by someone...
This was brilliant. Thank you-I hope millions of people see this. It explains so much, is told in a way people can hear & take it in, and gives us directions to a different path. Again, thank you.
Some pieces of art have to be explained to people before they can really appreciate them. Hopefully a lot of people will see this
Nope
i agree with this take. we all love joel but it made sense for him to die and it makes ellie’s motivation and drive throughout the rest of the game even more compelling, heartbreaking, and horrifying. once again druckmann centered his game around love and specifically the strong bond between its 2 main characters and how that bond drives them to extremes. we forget that the tlou world is full of tragedy and happen endings are hard to come by, which is also why i love the decision to make us look at the same world we’ve come to love through another survivors lens like abby. tlou 1 and 2 are both masterful
My problem with the last of us 2 was that they messed up Joel's character and he started acting stupid making decisions he would not have made in the first game. It was always so careful about not providing names and that sort of thing. I honestly don't believe he would have got himself in that situation to be surrounded and killed. It felt forced just so they could make it happen for their story. I would have been much happier if they wrote in a stealthy ambush or something that Joel would have had no way, preparing for
He was out of character. Something he wouldn’t not had done. But to fit the story they had to. And that’s horrible writing, killing off a very important character from one of the best game of all time.
It’s like having metal gears solid snake and killing off snake with a immature decision that he wouldn’t make. Would had make everyone upset.
@@JRosa-pk4ze yeah, whatever happened to NOT trusting others and NOT giving away information freely? It's just not him
@@zipzeolocke2 people say that he got too comfortable living with tommy and all so he become more friendly and off guard but doesn’t make sense cause zombie, and the firefly are problem looking for him after the event of the first one. You would had been even more guarded and protected than before.
@@JRosa-pk4ze I could buy Joel letting his guard down inside safe quarantine zones but not outside, no way would he. He knows how dangerous the world is
@@zipzeolocke2 super agree
you're correct... first minutes of playing as Abby I was asking myself: "where is the end of playing as this bi*ch?"
but later as she found the kids and saves them, I started to adore this part of storyline
I came back to the game a year later and just started the game at Abby's day one. I felt completely different about her.
@@EM-ve9bh game should have started as abby. Builds a lot if intrigue about the game and world then lets you stew over your feelings about revenge while you spend several hours partaking in it.
@@TheFloodFourm I thought of that too, but I liked the way it makes you hate Abby at first. I was fully ready to murder her entire crew. But when I look at it objectively from Abbys standpoint and remove any bias towards Ellie, I can see her side as well.
@@TheFloodFourm The whole point of playing as Ellie first is so you’re on board with her as a character emotionally and willing to transgress in the name of revenge. That falls apart if you’ve gotten to know Abby and her crew because then you as the player and Ellie are not on the same page Which makes Ellie’s story fall apart.
I don’t understand how so many fail to see this point.
@@ItsSVO i understand that is the point? I just think it would have been more interesting the other way around?
The way it is now the story loses momentum. Plus, most players miss the point because they’re too mad at abbey to ever give her character a chance, even while playing as her.
If the Walking Dead started with Negan, we would have sided with him against Ricks group. Even wondering why he ONLY kills Glenn and Abraham instead of wiping them all out. Both Negan and Rick were good men before the outbreak. Both became killers to protect their groups. Both see each other as ruthless monsters and murderers of their people.
Joel is not a good person anymore when we meet him in Last of Us. He’s a con man, a thief, a murderer. But over the course of the game we see his idea of humanity return, and are happy for him for finding it.
But because of the way we absorb stories, we side with Joel because he’s Us by extension.
I make the same case for Abby. How and why we relate to a character can change depending on when in their life you met them. If we met Abby at the end of Last of Us 1, crying over the body of her father, we would have already understood her. But instead, that first meeting is her killing someone precious to us.
Last of Us 2 is perfect.
I like that. I agree. When watching walking dead I wanted negan dead. After his redemption arc and knowing his story I understand why he did what he did. He was honestly too forgiving at times. Same with this game. I understand why abby killed Joel. I still wanted to kill her though. I would’ve been satisfied with the game ending at the farmhouse with Dina. The Santa Barbara arc was just a waste. You go there lose 2 fingers and let Abby go anyway. Only reason i see why they should’ve kept it is if they gave us the choice. Let her go or continue drowning her. If we chose to drown her we would get a different ending.
Last of Us Part 2 is ART, beyond perfect, truly a work of art.
@@birddog19 This makes me smile so much.
Try to reimagine the last fight as necessary. It is, in my opinion. So is Ellie losing the fingers, but I’ll get to that.
By the end of their fight, Ellie finally decides to end the cycle of violence that unknowingly began with Joel’s decision at the end of 1. In that, finding forgiveness for Joel that she couldn’t offer him while he was alive.
As for the fingers, I have a long winded pitch for LOU3. Involves Ellie and Abby having to go together to rumored firefly doctor that could complete Abby’s father’s work.
Long story short, we find out Abby is immune after she is bitten. An immunity she unknowingly gained after biting off Ellie’s fingers. (It’s not an immunity, it’s a form of cordycep that fights off the violent one)
The Naughty Dog gives you your first choice. Abby or Ellie. Who gets to lay their life down for humanity. Now that we should, by this point, understand and love both women as much as they learn to love each other on their journey.
Which I believe addresses your misgivings and gives us a powerful choice for the first time in the series.
🤷🏻♂️
@@chrismatteson1312 ya know I saw a video a month or so ago and it was a lot of scientific jargon but it basically said that Ellie is indeed infected but she was infected by a different strain of cordyceps somehow and that strain acts as an antifungal and that’s why she never got worse. I’ll try and find it and link it.
@@roastpork5437 Jealous that you said what I said in one sentence.
I'm replaying it now. It's still feels like it drags on too long and still hate Abby. But it's better than I remember playing the 1st time around
You still hate Abby? Sheesh. That sadly tells more about you than anything.
Damn we’re not allowed to have opinions these days?
@@VannywiththeFanny why because I hate a character I'm forced to play as after she killed off one of my favorite video game characters of all time? Or you trying to insinuate something else that isn't there?
@@VannywiththeFanny The fact that you'd care someone hates Abby sadly tells more about you than anything.
@@VannywiththeFanny Good lord, it's a video game, why do you judge people so much for being critical of any works of art? That really says a lot about the real you concerning these fictional characters.
Judging a real person over not feeling the same way over pixels, christ sake. Look around you and touch grass.
I think the game should just started with Abby, get to like her and trust her. Not just the opening bit…
Then you get invested on her revenge, then you realized its Joel.
Then you still have everything happen as is. You still have the same perspective/revenge story.
Masterpiece? 😅 naw. The first one is. I didn’t wanted to play the game for revenge, I wanted to play it with Joel.
You have no idea that your'e a talking about. The last of us part 2 controversy is not about Joel's death.
People hate part 2 because Joel acts "out of a character" and put himself in situation he should never be in. This is cheap and obviously was forced by scriptwriters ignoring everything about Joels character.
Waiting for 7 years for part 2 just to get nonsense plot driven by cheap shock-twists and filled with unpleasant functional secondary characters no one cares about - this is why people hate this. Period
I don't think people necessarily hate it, rather annoyed at how Naughty Dog handled it. It's just sorely, majorly disappointing. For me, it just isn't engaging. I found it boring. Story and writing is a crucial point for me, and this one just did not do it for me. It's a damn shame because it really did have so much going for it and had potential to be something truly special. To each their own.
Oh no i hate it. I just feel some people are hating it in a very dumb way.
For me the problem was never "oh they killed Joel! Me hate abby!"
My problem was "why the hell did they straight up lie to us in the trailer"
"Why did they set up the story so out of order"
"Why is there gender dysphoria talked about IN A ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE!"
But nooooo we got people making de@th threats because of video games characters dying.
Frekin lizard brain ppl man.
*Spoilers
I have more of an issue with the coincidences, and action movies tropes that are strewn all throughout the game than the illogical decisions. (Character not killing you when they have 50 chances to shoot you, Joel running into Abby and saving her just in time, Jessie finding Ellie and Dina, Ellie dropping the map that says where they are lol, on and on I have at least 10 more)
And more than anything, the pacing. There was no way they were going to kill off Joel in the first 2 hours of the game and not upset most of the fans of the original game in a way that made them feel cheated or like they were tricked into playing a game they didn't want to. I think they could have earned Joel's death, and actually gave it even more emotional weight with a little bit more buildup. How about spending the first 3rd of the game as Ellie traveling around with Joel on some red herring mission. THEN Joel gets killed out of nowhere. That would have much more weight, and it would still give players what they want. Killing everyone's favorite character 2 hours into the game, and then forcing you to play as his killer for TEN FUCKING HOURS!?!!........There's a reason why you don't see stories like that very often lol. It just doesn't work. You're almost guaranteed to lose tons of people along the way.
As it stands now, the current story pisses a lot of people off, but I think people too-often praise it for being "bold" instead of just having poor pacing, or unbelievable circumstances. Having Luke Skywalker die falling down the stairs at the beginning of Return of the Jedi would be bold, it would piss people off, and that doesn't mean that it has good writing. It's very very easily to manufacture those emotions in your audience, but I would argue what the first game did with slow character development was much more impressive, even if the premise was already a little cliche when the game originally released. It's the execution that matters. Anybody can just write down "Joel dies by getting beaten to death by the daughter of this character from the original game." on the storyboard. Sure, the idea is a little interesting. But it's the execution that is really the real test. And, in my opinion, if the execution was done well, you wouldn't have probably 50% of the people who played that game walking away from it thinking it was either okay or some kind of massive betrayal. Stories can only bring up those kinds of emotions in people when they're done in a hamfisted way that treats the player like a Guinea pig.
Now, some people want to praise the game for taking massive risks, and I guess I can understand that. I can understand why people might like the game. But, it isn't really a sequel to TLOU 1. Not in my opinion. As far as believability is concerned, it doesn't even take place in the same universe. It's like some alternate universe fanfic for me with some interesting merits, but completely disrespects the original characters and realism that the original game had. That's all gone here.
couldnt you also say that the plot armor given to characters isn't realistic and the fact that Joel dies without having some greater effect on the second game?
^^^^
My thoughts exactly. It strings you along for way too long because the writers know most people would be too invested to quit the game that early on. And honestly it was just pointlessly depressing.
Normally our views line up but not on this subject. Which isn't a big deal media is subjective
But I'm firmly in the camp that the last of us 2 was really bad writing, poor character development and they bait and switched on Joel. I'm sure others appreciated it, but not me.
In writing, a bait and switch is actually called a twist, and it's a good thing.
It isn't bad writing, it's literally the format of the genre, it's the same as the first game, just more impactful.
This is like complaining that The Red wedding in game of thrones is bad writing and a "bait and switch".
I didn't hate the Last of Us 2, it just felt like a huge waste of time. The characters are unfullfilled, nobody really succeeds at anything and the story has no closure. When you play a story mode it's alot of time and effort and you hope to get something out of it. My biggest disappointment was saving Yara from her wounds just for her to die within the same chapter. The tone of the game is great, the acting is perfect, but the overall narrative? Not so much.
I mean, it was the sequel to TLoU, a game about literally going across the country to accomplish nothing lol weird take
I think my experience is exactly what they expected players to feel. I absolutely loved the first and was beyond hyped for part 2. Playing it was amazing but then I got to that Joel and Abby scene... and I hated it and was sad and angry. Kept playing and was fully with Ellie on her revenge quest and as we get to Abbys playthrough section I was pissed and angry all over again... but then I seen Abbys story play out and witnessed her side of the story and her and Levs journey and fell in love with the character. It's a brutal and violent and depressing story of TLOU2 but that is what makes it amazing to me and one of the best games ever made.
It is depressing, but also hopeful.
In my opinion, Ellie letting Abby live was her way of finally forgiving Joel. By ending the cycle of violence that he began.
I think the 3rd game should be about Abby and Ellie. Abby finding a Firefly doctor that can complete a cure if they had access to an immune person. Abby finds Ellie, who reluctantly agrees to go with her.
And on the way learn how much they actually relate to each other. How much violence they’ve caused in the name of a lost love. I expect Ellie to eventually see Joel in Abby, a person who came to love a stranger they didn’t initially want around. Slowly chipping away at their hatred for each other.
Then, close to their goal, Abby is bitten. Both finally finding acceptance and true forgiveness for each other. Ellie promises to stay until the end with Abby.
But in the morning, Abby is unchanged. Because Ellie isn’t immune, she’s infected with a fungus that kills the violent cordycep strain. The same infection Abby would have received after bitting off Ellie’s fingers in LOU2.
They finish the journey together, and then Naughty Dog gives us our first choice in the series.
Allow Ellie to lay her life down for a chance to save humanity and give her the agency Joel took from her years ago. Or allow Abby to finish her fathers work by doing the same.
Last of Us was about love.
Last of Us 2 about hatred and revenge.
Last of Us 3 about forgiveness and hope.
That simply didn't happen for everyone. That's the biggest critique. They flawlessly made you fall in love with Ellie and Joel, but tried way too hard to make you fall for Abby. They kept telling you they wanted you to with clichéd screenwriting 101 tactics like "save the cat" and "pet the dog" after depicting Abby has a malicious enemy. We never saw Joel that way.
I think they felt a little invincible after the praise of the first film and tried to up the ante.
Something I've taken away after just finishing the Last of Us Part 2 is that it's a game that succeeds at creating a brutal atmosphere. The first game with its characters deaths is arguably more consistent at putting a hole in your heart, but Part 2 definitely continues at least an adequate form of this trend. Other elements such as the music, the physical violence and gameplay, crawling through harsh terrain to kill people with such brutality is something the game improves on from the first. Of course one of the main aspects of the brutal nature of this series is the decisions the characters are forced to make on very short notice, most notably (SPOILER ALERT) Joel's decision to kill dozens upon dozens of people to save one life. At this point, the only thing that remains is the sympathy we have for our lead characters because they are so lovable. I have mentioned the word brutal several times throughout this comment. And I might as well mention it one more time, but this time, only for the second entry and not the series as a whole. The Last of Us Part 2 starts to diminish our sympathy for these lovable leads. We see other perspectives, which to some ruin the original game, but without the second game, only shield us from the underlying truth. Abby is a character who I thought was a well written character who served her purpose in the story very well. Ellie contributes to the brutality of the Last of Us series, and to some, they could honestly be desensitized from all the killing. Only when we switch to Abby's perspective do we feel a new form of sorrow in knowing that our beloved characters caused such dire repercussions to some, equally beloved characters as we close out the second game having had spent so much time with Ellie's "family" of characters. Right before the credits begin to roll, we see a shot of Ellie at an absolutely insurmountable low, now having just lost the ability to play guitar, a vessel keeping her in touch with a lost father figure, and Dina having left. Depending on the person, for some it may only leave you questioning legacy characters, and for others it will leave them watching a completely different closing shot for TLOU2. Ellie having to experience everything the games have had to share of this BRUTAL last of us atmosphere and us, the viewer, faith in her.
This is supposed to be about the game. Why do you keep showing the TV show? A lot of us haven’t watched it yet man. 🤦🏽♂️
Cut scnes: fuck you Ellie
Combat moments: oh yeahh!!! Im great! This is amazing. Bang! Bang!
There's a wide variety of reasons people may dislike the game that go way beyond Joel Died (a valid but shallow opinion) or Ellie's Gay (completely invalid)
Personally, I was turned off by the miserable tone. These are all deeply broken and terrible people that use the outcomes of their atrocities as excuse to commit ever more atrocities.
A perfectly human story if ever there was one, even if it's about as deep as a puddle, but regardless that doesn't mean I want to sit through 40 hours of repetitive combat and stealth sections for it
One of the best games ever made. I love it.
The title was literally never explained. And just because you play as Abby doesn’t mean you have to defend her murdering a man who saved her in cold blood.
*Murdered the man who murdered your father
Murdering the same man who murdered her father so… 🤷♂️ just cuz you saved me doesn’t mean I have to forgive or ignore what you did.
@@drown_n Her father pulls a knife on you as you attempt to rescue a girl he is about to murder. Even by present day standards it would be legal to kill him in that situation. It would in no way be legal to murder someone with a golf club who is not threatening you at all 🤷♂️
The End of The Last of Us Part 1: Joel regains his lost humanity.
The Last of Us Part 2 Haters: Why is Joel not acting like a soulless hardass that trusts no one and always has his guard up? He would never have acted like this in the first game!
That is not how it works, regaining humanity is not remotely related to being wise and protective in an APOCALYPSE where murderers and cannibals are everywhere
@@ahmadalrowaili1751 You're right, they're not related, but he wasn't wise in the first game either. Play it again and note that we spend only 9 days with him and he screws up about 27 times in cutscenes. How many traps did he trigger? How many times did he pass through an exit without checking for danger first? How many times was he carelessly looking the wrong way and got jumped? He even says "it's called luck and it will run out".
6:05. "The game makes you like Abby". No it doesn't.
Another thing I notice is that each game is about how illogical human emotions are:
Part 1: spend the whole game trying to get to Fireflies to save world, and then you choose to save one girl over the world
Part 2: spend the whole game trying to kill Abby to avenge Joel, and then you forgive Abby in order to forgive Joel
Humans are bad at getting out of our own way.
We didn't know Ellie was gonna be sacrificed. All we know she could be the key to a cure, we didn't know that the only way to do it is lethal to her.
@@excalibro8365 This is true. I guess both games end on a spontaneous decision (saving Ellie and freeing Abby)
@@excalibro8365 Joel doubted the idea of a cure from jump.
“We’ve heard this before.”
He’s irritated that’s the reason they were risking their lives.
When he found out she was going to die, he was never going to allow that.
@@connerl8449 I don’t think either decision is spontaneous.
Joel always doubted a cure. He was never going to let them kill Ellie.
And Ellie was never going to leave Lev without a protector, like Abby did to Ellie. In that moment, she finds the forgiveness for Joel that she wasn’t able to offer him while he was alive.
Ellie wasn't totally taken over by revenge. She was manipulated by Tommy. She was starting to wind down and deal with her trauma with Dina. Then Tommy comes and tells her that if she isn't going to find Abby and kill her, then Tommy will go himself and get killed because his leg is bad. Tommy forced Ellie to go.
So the bad writing is the reason the game is great? Yeah you lost me? How can anyone identify with Abby she’s literally one of the most evil characters in the game she literally kills her own Allies because she want to take care of some trans kid. She would’ve slit a pregnant woman’s throat with a smile on her face (Abby only stopped cause she didn’t wanna do that in front of the trans kid). I don’t think I can identify with that. I know Ellie killed Abby’s pregnant friend (by accident) and when she realized what she did she was so grief stricken she could barely form words.
Great video! You really nailed it. I really LOVE part II, it breaks my heart with the decisions both Ellie and Abby take, but it's such a good story.
I mean you liked it for me and everyone else is just controversial and garbage I rather prefer other video game story like resident evil four or Other games that did it better than last of us part two.
@@eldeadkilljohnkennedy3946 “me and everyone else”… dude that’s the weakest response ever. There is no “everyone else”, because everyone has a different opinion and there is no “right answer “. If you didn’t like it it’s ok, you’re entitled to it. I respect that. But don’t play the “me and everyone else” card. Peace ✌🏼
This video would make sense if Abby were a like able character but she isn’t. She’s a home-wrecker, she literally enjoyed torturing people and her group of friends are one dimensional. Like the one Spanish dude always saying “pendejo”. As a Latino I don’t know a single person that talks like this. This game is far from a masterpiece (technically it is amazing) but storytelling wise it plays out like fan fiction.
I think people’s gripe with Part 2 wasn’t the direction/theme of the game. It was the way it was done pertaining to the catalyst-Joel getting killed. There just too many illogical inconsistencies done by Joel and Tommy that got them caught.
Why would extremely cautious people like Joel and Tommy just give away where they’re from and their names to strangers?
I don't understand how people defend this story honestly. It had so many issues yet people defend it like it's the best story game ever written "10/10 masterpiece"
Because Ellie broke down Joel's defenses throughout the course of the first game. If he was the same Joel shown at the beginning of the first game he wouldn't be nearly as willing to trust Abby.
@@Cheesemounta I don’t think that makes much sense. You’re right that he became much more human because of Ellie, but to suggest that’ll override decades of survival tactics is not good writing.
It’ll make much more sense that he’s open to a relationship with people and strangers already accepted by Jackson, but complete strangers? I just can’t see it.
@@Mannyiwlf That's a fair enough reading on it, I can definitely see where you're coming from with that
“Can’t move past my virtual daddy dying unless they give me a good reason too” so many snowflakes lol
I also appreciated the message underneath that revenge and lack of empathy don’t bring catharsis but the exact opposite. The selfish desires of these characters end up hurting them in a multitude of ways. Ellie threw away her chance at happiness for selfish need for revenge on another person that also had her happiness taken for the purely selfish reasons that Joel killed her father.
Both are great experiences that I could only bring myself to play thru once a piece.
Joel and Ellie are best characters in last of us franchise. Abby and her father are worse characters ever created.
@Alexander Knowles God you really are coping hard. You petty insult and say “grow up”? Wow
@Alexander Knowles haha. I find it amusing that you insult people based on their affection for fictional characters to someone who loves the genre of fiction. I mean even this dude who made the video tells you why you care about fictional characters.
@@ollehkacbstill don’t agree with the other guy tho- I genuinly liked Abby and Ellie’s story. Both had their reasons, people are just getting too attached to Joel and thus they got mad over Joel dying. I myself like that he died in the way he did cause well, This is supposed to be kinda realistic and it shows life will hit you unpredictably. Joel didn’t die like a hero, died like any other person would.
@@Joryu- i thought it was a tweenagers idea of a good story. It was edgy, bleak, without a satisfying resolution.
Putting it lightly its tragedy porn.
As I've explained it to some others before, the reason most people like is the same reason victims love their abusers.
That being the sweet moments and memories of when the relationship was good. Which is how most tragedy prob story's gather their audience in my opinion.
TLOU1 was a story about Love......TLOU2 was a story about Revenge.....TLOU3 should be about Redemption ....Hope where there was once no hope for humanity at all...I predict the 3rd one will have Abby and Ellie having to work together to finally save humanity's future.
They're both about love in the end, 2 is about the trauma of losing the ones you love and the lengths you can go to to hurt someone that hurt your loved ones but in the end its also love that helps Ellie and Abby start to move forward.
After killing Joel Abby still felt like shit and her friends' group was distancing themselves from her, she still has nightmares, its not until Yara and Lev that she finds a new path for herself.
Likewise with Ellie it's not until she can remember her last conversation with Joel and see his face without the memories of his death that she can begin moving on.
I don't see Ellie and Abby team up or even ever meeting again, that's a bit too Marvel movie plot for TLoU
In some crossover sometime in the future PlayStation all-stars round two Probably a Erasing the last of us universe Giving it a swan song Ellie wakes up in a different universe to find out it’s actually insomniac Spider-Man Timeline.
"I think the reasons people hate is what makes it great"
You think poor writing, contrived plot events and established characters not behaving and not being logical the way they should are great? LMAO
My reaction when I finished TLoU II is still my overarching thought on the game: it's a masterpiece, but I didn't really enjoy it. That's not to say I didn't like or love it, I did, and I will replay it someday when I'm ready. But I did not enjoy the experience of playing it, and that is clearly intentional on the devs' part. The game is so brilliant in the way it makes you feel things, but those feelings are not often joy like many other games. But art is not supposed to make its audience feel joy exclusively, and much of the art that stands the test of time is not joyous but instead elicits more complex feelings in its audience.
Also, I really love this take on the game, and especially the metaphor to technology/the internet. I think the internet specifically is a near perfect fit for the way the cordyceps infection is portrayed. Even the imagery, in the game and now in the show, of seeing the fungus spread like the view of electric lights from space, really conjures the idea of the internet and the way it has spread to be all-encompassing. And the disconnect it creates among humanity, I think that's a brilliant connection to make. I'm only annoyed that I hadn't considered it before myself, it seems so obvious to me now!
same here. When I first played as Abby I just got her killed like 20 times before i finally continued with the missions.
I’m guilty of not playing the game on release because of all the RUclipsrs bashing it. Plus I didn’t even want to play knowing Joel got killed immediately. Finally got around to it and it’s fucking amazing. Lesson learned.
I really hope others follow your example. I felt so sorry for those RUclipsrs who hate-played their way through in the early days, performatively deleting or breaking the game when they had to play as young Abby. It was like watching spoilt children throw a tantrum. I thought, "ok, I know Naughty Dog's going to try to manipulate me into liking her now, but the first game was so good I'll give them a chance and see how or if they do it." I was not disappointed. Such a complex & layered narrative compared to TLOU, but it didn't surprise me that so many struggled to appreciate it.
there are other reasons this game was hated that u didnt mention
1) its misery porn
2) the ending
3) the poor pacing
4) the poor way they killed off joel
5) the dialogue was rather cringe
6) that sex scene
7) mistreatment of joel and ellie.
all of these are legit and valid issues with this game.... at least to reasonable people
The problem with Abby is just she was a weak link in the story. Who the hell is she? Daughter of the doctor that Joel killed? Well shit bro Joel killed a tons of a people.
And no dont give me the “immunity” bullshit. Abby didnt give a shit about Ellie being immune. She went manhunt for Joel just because of her dad. And her loyal followers unknowingly willing to join as well.
What about those family that Ellie killed then? Whats the meaning of this?
And the game gave us TWICE pregnancy to “forced” player to be sad.
So no, i have 0 sympathy to Abby whatsoever.
I would prefer Ellie killed Abby in the end and thats it.
Lev ? She should stayed in DLC.
Great takes! Point of clarification, Ellie loses her fingers *during* the final showdown with Abby. It's actually what causes her to finally let go of the fight, because she realizes that she'll never be able to play guitar again, thus never have the one thing that kept her connection to Joel alive. Such a beautiful moment, because that connection was also keeping her vengeance alive. Once that was taken--and she screams, "It's taken!"--she is too overwhelmed to continue and ultimately accepts the loss. Truly, an INCREDIBLE moment.
She screams "it's taken"?
@@itcouldbelupus2842 yes as her fingers are being bitten off
@@AETHEREALMINDS Huh, I don't remember that. I'll have to watch that scene again.
I like this interpretation, I never drew such an explicit connection to playing guitar in that moment, but it makes sense.
@@AETHEREALMINDS hate to be that guy, but she doesn't seem to say anything when her fingers are bitten off.
I watched a clip with subtitles and I didn't hear anything.
She says " just take him" to Abby, in regards to Lev.
Afterwards, when letting her go, basically saying get out of here before I change my mind.
@@itcouldbelupus2842 I’ll have to rewatch, but was likely in my wreck of emotions if I misheard. Regardless, losing her fingers-her ability to play guitar and her last connection to Joel-is what prompts her to finally let go.
Calling Abby a character is a stretch, because she's so poorly written, but here's what we know about her:
Is sadistic:
* Enjoys torturing Joel.
* Wishes she had more time for torture, while walking past people being tortured.
* Owen sex scene (less said about that the better).
Disloyal:
* Assigned to lead important attack against her group's enemies. Ignores assignment.
* Kills her own comrades.
* Sleeps with friend's boyfriend.
Thoughtless:
* Decides to find Joel by herself, because the rest of her group thinks it's impossible. Leaves without gear, supplies, or a plan.
* Takes one-armed girl to an island where everyone wants to kill her.
* Is surprised when Ellie shows up, despite the fact Ellie was literally screaming, "I WILL KILL YOU" while she was killing Joel.
Self-centered:
* Takes advantage of drunk ex-boyfriend, whom she apparently doesn't give a shit about, then blames him.
* Acts surprised about the attack on Scar Island, even though she had been assigned to lead it.
* Is pissed Ellie came after her, because, "We let you live". Even though Joel literally saved her life, immediately before she killed him.
Lucky:
* Doesn't get shot by Ellie, even though Ellie has a clear shot, with a weapon in both hands, at a distance of about ten or fifteen feet.
* Survives attack by horde, after random guy saves her. Random guy coincidentally turns out to be guy she's looking for.
* Gets handed map to killer's location, when she finds friends' bodies.
Inconsistent:
* "#1 Scar Killer" on day 1. #1 WLF killer on day 3.
* Day 2: "If there are Fireflies in Santa Barbara, I'd go the other way." Day 3: Sails off to find Fireflies in Santa Barbara.
* Goes on suicidally dangerous mission to save Yara. Doesn't bother to tell Owen and Mel that someone's trying to kill them.
There are a lot of things to dislike about the "Abby" character.
That she's the only person in the game who has access to steroids is stupid and distracting. But it's pretty minor..
She sounds more human than most characters, if you ask me…
Would I call her thoughtless? Knowing she was looking for vengeance and a way to forgive herself later on the game? No.
Would I call her self centered? Sure that’s a human trait, but is going all out and crossing an island where a war erupted for the sake of someone’s life self centered? No. I wouldn’t say that.
I also find it hilarious that you call her lucky since most of her friends and father were killed and/or tortured. Ah don’t forget she ended up rotting in a cell before Ellie showed up in Santa Barbara.
Most of her “inconsistency” is just evolution of her character.
Some of your remarks are painful to read. Don’t just hate Abby just because, actually think about what she did and why she did it and compare her to Ellie afterwards. Would you say both of them are poorly written?
@@leandrosoares8338 More human?!?!? Nice joke bro
@@jacobgonzalez2002 Elaborate bro
@@leandrosoares8338 I think this game just heavily relies on "you" the player liking Abby's character, If not people will end up hating it, which explains why there is such a divide between the fan base. And honestly the reason for that happening is purely because of good idea bad execution.
This reminded me of the funeral scene (S2 E4) in a church in Daredevil (Drew Goddard version) where Fr. Lanton says, “One person is not just one person. In each of us there is a world webbing out, reaching others-creating reactions, sometimes equal, sometimes opposite. We rush to say one life gone, but each of us is a world. And today a world has been lost.”
I know Disney/Marvel won’t, but I sure wish they’d keep Drew Goddard. He made sure we had something to think deeply about; he made Daredevil much more than a money-making good time.
I played part II long after release so I was already aware of Joel's death, maybe that changed it all for me because instead of being all in with Ellie's revenge I was disgusted by it, I freaking hated how easy Abby's friends were killed because we get to know them and they just die like any NPC... It's indeed a powerful story, the last of us killing each other like we're nothing, consumed by revenge... A masterpiece tho not for everyone
I don't know if playing it after spoilers is why you reacted how you did, but your reaction is how normal people with empathy would be reacting to the game.
@@nathandts3401 yeah I mean I was pissed but Joel really took everything from Abby and I really loved her character and her relationship with the kid... Naughty dog knew exactly what they were doing!
@@shakerCh No they didn’t. Employees literally left because of it LMAO
@@gamerforlife3946 source: trust the hater lmao
@@shakerCh Source: 2019 news, keep coping
I did agree with Joel. That quack doctor could have never created a cure operating in that discusting dirty room. Gtfoh
And he didn't ask Ellie for consent! The amount of people who think the fireflies are justified is insane. They were psychopath.
@@berserkerscientist yup, he was a quack psycho who deserved to die
@@berserkerscientist yup they were psychopaths but it was not the doctor who is to be blamed and how can you justify that you are correct and vaccine can't be made like out of thin air how can you say they can't make vaccine when they were at the verge of making it...
At the end of the day Joel killed people and got killed. I loved his character but I knew his actions had to come back on him right, wrong, or indifferent. He was killed on principle. In the TLOU world these factions operate like gangs. Eye for an eye.
@@JADub87 abby didn't get killed, still has both eyes
Tbh the only thing I’d change from TLOU2 is make Joel’s death seem completely inevitable. They really dropped the ball taking him out of character just to get him to drop his guard with abbys group.
Bit of a retcon in your mind Miguel, but you're not the first to claim that! Please replay the first game. Over the seasons we actually spend only 9 days in Joel's company *in total* and he "drops the ball" around 27 times. He's only alive because Tess has been looking out for him; that's why he's so deferential to her. When Ellie tells them _"you guys are good at this"_ Joel admits _"it's called luck and it will run out"._ If *he* knows it, why do so many players not? The hunting lodge scene is completely in character.
Furthermore, the probability of running into anyone who either knew his name from years ago or who even cares about him anymore when he's so far away from civilisation is probably lottery odds level unlikely. Most of them would be dead by now anyway and unlikely to risk the journey. He thinks he has no reason to be concerned.
The TV show, however, supports your misconception of Joel's superhuman survival skills. That may cause the problem you describe in season 2 unless they twist it. Looking forward to find out!
@@cavalierwiththetruth examples? Because you saying he's dropped the ball doesn't mean he did.
And 2nd there are multiple situations that show how smart and cautious Joel is and how the lodge is out of character. Leaving the family on the side of the road, spotting the ambush, getting informed from the two captured cannibals.
He's definitely not a lucky idiot who made it 25 years into an apocolypse.
@@cavalierwiththetruth more lime a justification for the second games failure in your mind.
@@justadude3789 You could play it again and see for yourself that he is indeed a lucky idiot, but perhaps your rose-tinted glasses would remain too effective throughout. Sure, he occasionally makes a sensible choice, but his smart:stupid ratio is pretty low. Here's my _extensive_ evidence:
*Day 1 in Joel's company*
1) After the Outbreak Day car crash, Joel breaks out of the car and is so engrossed in other car across the street that an infected grabs him and Tommy has to save him with a brick.
2) Carrying Sarah down the alleyway he runs straight toward another infected who Tommy has to save him from. Why not let Tommy run ahead? Minor issue compared to later on.
@@justadude3789
*Day 2*
3) When Tess & Joel are making their way through a dilapidated building he nearly brings the ceiling down on top of himself rather than carefully moving the filing cabinets out of the way.
4) Immediately after this, rather than carefully checking his exit, he gets grabbed by the trapped guy lying on the floor. That could easily have been an infected bite.
5) Joel slowly opens a door and is nearly shot by Robert. Ever watched a cop show? How do they do it in those? Joel's a fan of Curtis & Viper but has no idea.
6) Marlene goes through a door, Joel blindly follows her and is nearly stabbed by Ellie because, again, he didn't check his exit first.
Spoiler Alert! (Horrible Game)
I loved Last of Us 1, but Last of Us 2 was very interesting to play and not in a positive way. I was seriously enjoying the story about Joel's death and Ellie trying to avenge his death, and Ellie's romance on the side. It could have been one of the best games ever.
Unfortunately, towards the end, I was forced to play as Abby. I really liked Joel as a character, and when Abby killed him, I, of course, developed a serious dislike for Abby. Furthermore, Abby is just a pissed-off, unlikable character in general. Thus, I really didn't want to play as Abby and found myself just letting zombies kill me because I wanted to return to playing as Ellie, and it was more enjoyable to watch her die than to try to help her survive.
I tried to play it out as Abby, hoping it would return to Ellie at any moment, but hours went by, and it still made me play as Abby until eventually I just said, "Screw it. I'm not enjoying this game at all, and I stopped playing altogether. I've played almost every rpg there is, and there is only one other game I have stopped playing halfway through. Thus, Last of Us 2 is one of the only games I rate as a 0 out of 10 since it was so unenjoyable that I didn't even finish it. The lesson here is NEVER FORCE THE PLAYER TO PLAY AS AN UNLIKABLE ANTAGONSIST, PLEASE.
After, being so disappointed with Part 2, I don't recommend either of these games.
My biggest complaint about part 2 is that your brother in law included a picture of your cat but not one of Doug
My biggest issue was the LOU2 was how the game was telling us that we should feel sympathy for Abby instead of us letting us grow to sympathize with her. They even gave her dad a literal "save the cat" moment. I could not have empathy for Abby because she was just not a likable character (my opinion). Everyone around her were (mostly) likable. Playing as her helped me have empathy for the people that Ellie killed trying to get to Abby, but not for Abby herself. I just got so fed up with the fact that naughty dog was telling me how I was supposed to feel but not really giving me any good reason to feel it.
Well, it’s impossible to make everyone love something/someone. Whatever you do, there’s always someone who didn’t like what we did. It’s unfortunate you couldn’t sympathize with Abby.
But for me, TLOU Part 2 is the best video game I’ve ever played!
@Eddy S. Tandya I'm not trying to take away from anyone else's experience. And I did have empathy for Abby. I have empathy for everybody. I absolutely could not sympathize with her and what she did. It also doesn't help that I think Joel was absolutely right in Saving Ellie. Abby's father was wrong for trying to kill her. All that being said, I absolutely loved the game up until I had to play as Abby. I can totally see why someone who doesn't have an issue with the Abby storyline taking the game is one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest.
Exactly! I might could have felt more for her had we played her part first and got to know who she was and grew to like her before she brutally murders my favorite game character lol. Doing it the way it was in the game didn’t work because by that point I hated her ass lol
@@joshnizzle I agree. Even with that, they still could have brought us to sympathize with her if she was just a likable person. The game tried to force a comparison between her and Joel when there was none. Abby had a fairly decent like where she was. She had friends. She had a future. Joel had his heart ripped out at the beginning of the first game and was closed off to any sense of joy...until he met Ellie. We got nothing like that with Abby. I really hope the writers of the show take some liberties with Abby's character at least make her more likable and relatable.
Yea I can't stand this game.. I didn't care about Ellie or Abby by the end. They could've both killed eachother and i'd feel nothing which is not good for a 40 hour game. I love depressing shit, 1 of my favorite shows is the Leftovers and the difference between The Leftovers and Last of Us 2 is interesting characters. Abby bored me to death and felt nothing for her. Only reason I card about Ellie at all was for the last game. Ellie/Joel made the game and without them together I feel nothing. This game is not a Masterpiece I don't care how philosophical you want to make the story look like. If they took the Abby game play out i'd like it more.
i have to wonder if maybe the smarter approach for the show would be to introduce Abby earlier, but in such a way that the audience can't clue in to her relevance to the Ellie/Joel story line. so that viewers don't start to connect the dots until shortly before she kills Joel. make us care for (& relate to) her BEFORE she does what will make everyone hate her.
this was arguably Druckman's big mistake with the game; it wasn't that he forced us to play as Abby, it was WHEN he did. because the concept of the different/opposing viewpoint was brilliant. i am still not quite yet ready to play part 2, because the structure is infuriating. if they follow the same delivery progression as the game, they WILL LOSE A TON of viewers, guaranteed, and that will just make the show a lot less successful.
you are absolutely correct
handled properly it would have been a great twist.
so far the writing in the tv show has been top notch
i'll be shocked if they don't handle the plot points in part 2 in a better way
Question. Would you want to watch the film 'Shawshank Redemption' if, after Clancy Brown beats the inmate to death, the next forty minutes was solely following him around, maybe a home where his wife belittles him, maybe a sibling, so you can sympathize that the only way he can feel like a man is to be cruel and torture these inmates? Not sure I would. Would you want a Star Wars game where you play as Vader, and get some tacked on backstory that 'justified' his actions with the youngling students in Revenge of the Sith? would that feel like a rewarding masterpiece? Don't get me wrong, it's a well thought out, valid premise, but I'm just not sure I can buy into it.
Funny thing is Game of Thrones does basically this: And the difference is they don't treat Joffrey or Cersei as good people.
That's really the crux of things. It's not trying to get you to sympathize with them, it's trying to recontextualize them as good people. If you don't buy into that: Good, it means you're at least not a morally abhorrent person because there's a *reason* the game tried to do this, and it has nothing to do with the writer wanting to explore themes.
During the making of Uncharted 4, sexual harasser Robert Cogburn was given a polite leave from the company after one of his victims went public and metoo'd him. Cogburn was a rampant problem enabled by Neil Druckmann, writer of TLOU2, and the former VP of Naughty Dog at the time who was the best friend of Druckmann. Together they fired Cogburn's victims. The VP and Cogburn had to leave the company because *Sony* HR was contacted, IE the victim went over Naughty Dog's heads on this so it couldn't be kept private anymore, but Neil Druckmann continues to uphold the blacklist and has a statement on the Naughty Dog website attempting to name and shame the victim.
To him, Cogburn, the VP, and himself are all good people and he was correct in firing the victims of sexual harassment because they were a threat to good people and himself by having the gall to not want to be harassed.
With this context, watch the video again and see if their moral defenses of Abby would be applicable to Neil Druckmann. The author makes no consideration for how their defenses are almost exclusively for people like Druckmann, Cogburn, Weinstein, etc.
Saddest part about a TLOU part 2 adaptation is that we won't get the scene with Future Days (released in 2013).
True. What do you reckon they'll use instead?
videos like these are why i love your channel. deep, meaningful analysis and respect for quality.
I have nothing against people liking this game, but calling it a masterpiece? Really? Have our standards dropped so far that a game that does something unconventional, even though it was done poorly a lot of the time, is deserved of the title "masterpiece"? People like this scare me, man. I'm not saying this game doesn't have merit, or that it is impossible to enjoy it, but there is a huge difference between something being flawed, but good and calling it a masterpiece.
This says more about the people who made the video than about the game, to be completely hoenst.
So what you've just done is take an opinion on something subjective like what's considered a "masterpiece" and inserted your own opinion but offered it up like it was a fact.
Like any art or media, it's subjective.
I would like to know what things you felt were done badly in this game. What were your main issues with it?
I think the points you make are valid, but they also seemed really obvious to me. I kind of guessed Joel would die early (or possibly it was spoiled for me) and it would be a revenge story. And the truth is I always thought of Joel as the villain of the first game. When he died, I didn’t think it was an unjust murder, but the inevitable consequences of his own actions. I didn’t hate Abby, I figured right away that she was getting revenge for the hospital killing and Ellie was making a mistake by continuing the cycle of revenge. I guess what I’m saying is that if the game was trying to set me up for a gut punch, it didn’t work because Ellie was clearly wrong from the beginning and so I couldn’t really empathize with her. I wanted to not kill people but that wasn’t an option.
Still, I didn’t hate the game. I loved Lev and his relationship to Abby.
Yeah, I think the game design operates under the assumption that you, like Ellie, love Joel more than life itself. The emotional rollercoaster they’re trying to take you on only really works if you can empathize with Ellie’s intense love for Joel and the indescribable pain she feels from having him taken from her in such a sudden, brutal way. You’re also the first person I’ve ever heard of who seemed to like Abby more than Joel (or at least didn’t get that mad at her). Mad props.
I love this channel and it’s creator but I disagree. The game isn’t challenging you the player because the game is too inconsistent. Small example: in the game some enemies can surrender to you, which is a very interesting Idea since your playing revenge getting monsters so then surrendering should question what the player should be doing with ppl who just wanna live. But that idea is not properly executed because they’ll just say sike and attack you again anyways which actually validates you killing everyone. If every enemy character will try to kill you then there isn’t a moral question to keep them alive, you’d just be making it harder for you to play. And the game as way too many good or even great ideas that they just don’t get right.
I disagree that everyone agrees its a masterpiece on a technical level. Visually sure, but the gameplay wasn’t innovative at all and because the story wasn’t really doing it for me and it was so long, I got quite bored fast. The final scene in the rattler compound showed some innovation, but that was right at the end.
I said it back then I'll see it now, if they had done a whole game just with Abby, and not give away her connection to Joel whatsoever, and just playing the whole game with Abby as the hero, that would have been better. Then on the third game make the connection to Joel and her hatred towards him and then let what happens happen in the third game. That way we would have been emotionally invested in Abby, almost as much as Joel and I think they would have gotten across what they were trying to do better.
yup
Ellie sparing Abby was ultimately the best ending. She’s already scarred Abby for life, killed all her friends and anyone she’d even call family other than Lev, killed the love of her life, gave her big permanent scars like the one on Abby’s cheek towards the end. Abby only has one thing: Lev, just like Joel only had Ellie, and that’s her reason to go on, her purpose, just like Joel’s. Abby ends the game realizing that the world isn’t black or white, and that every person is both good and bad to specific capacities, and really just trying to protect the ones they love. Unless you’re some weird pedo cannibal creep like David, then you can go get torn apart by a pack of clickers. She even has somewhat expressed regret towards killing Joel, as it didn’t fill the void left by her fathers death. Just like it wouldn’t have filled Ellie’s void if she killed Abby. Ellie inadvertently saved Abby and Lev’s lives at the beach, which is partially the reason Abby didn’t want to fight her (excluding that she was extremely malnourished and tortured for months). Abby also realized the cycle ends with one person choosing to either forgive, or to walk away from the violence. She spared Ellie’s life, and Ellie spares hers, because at the end of the day for Ellie it isn’t about Abby or being immune or any of that. It’s about the hurt and distance that her and Joel went through, and the painstaking realization that if she had tried to forgive Joel earlier, or at least worked on fixing things with him, she wouldn’t have suffered with as much guilt and shame as she did after he died. Although she had the right to feel that way, she herself knows she loves Joel and is in some sense grateful that he did what he did, even through her guilt of not being able to save the world, her life still matters. This game hurt a lot of people, and it’s okay that people are divided on it, it’s okay to love it or hate it or not care, as long as you’re not just some dumb troll who’s caught on the hype of hating whatever the internet deems hate worthy. I love this game and the first one, and if they release part 3, I’ll be there to experience it. Most people will never read this comment, so if you got to this point, thanks.
So glad you pointed out that it was only about Ellie & Joel's relationship in the end - most people missed that and think Ellie forgave Abby. Abby could have been anyone to Ellie, it really didn't matter to her, but watching over both their shoulders as either "guardian angel Joel" or "guardian angel Jerry" you might have felt they could have been good friends under different circumstances. That's part of the reason the fights are so gruelling.
This might be my favorite piece of content from ScreenCrush. Thank you.
They hate it because one of the best characters ever was killed in an instant moment and it's more of the same revenge and vengeance bs plot from the first game like it has some kind of weight or meaning to it. Dark, bleak storytelling with nihilistic writing from the beta cuck in charge of the sequel. Cutscenes don't make sense they are poorly rendered and Neil is trying to make everything about himself and Ellie/Abby. Joel was a saint he did everything out of good reasons. The people he crossed paths with would of done much worse to them if he simply let them go in the original. Got arrested and then escorted out of a hospital after being knocked out unconscious trying to save Ellie from a drowned death when he was trying to breath life into her. She should be grateful.
Fought against a terrorist organization, beat up enemies and killed zombies. For me that's the real hero of the franchise. He lost his daughter, his wife and his survival partner. He went through so much difficult stuff only to be thrown under the bus in Part II. Neil is always trying to cater to the screaming feminists and misandrists he is shameless. I felt so deeply invested in Joel's realistic & brave character but the sequel doesn't care about that apparently it's so odd. The direction is terrible. Play as Joel's stubborn cargo and play as his sadistic torturer & murderer. Bruce Straley is the reason why this franchise worked. The endless cycle of violence that Neil is trying to show is just unnecessary and completely overdone at this point in video games. Like watching paint dry.
Being mean is not fun. I realize a few people still thinks that, but it's just shorttime. Thx for still bringing the positive.
You going to piss off the fedora bros with this one
Ngl, I actually liked playing as Abby. It really gave her depth and brought life to her character.
Exactly! I always tell people that it seems they hate this story for the really creative and impressive tactics Drucker uses to get us to feel the opposite of the theme, so that when finally drive home the theme through a clever bit of engineering empathy, that theme hits home that much harder. You feel Ellie's hate in the beginning, but by the end, you're drained. You don't want to continue, but you have to, because Ellie is relentless. It was so well done that this game is now my GOAT...
Well said.
@@bonkgiartist Thanks 🙂
Drucker the guy who disrespected and treated his employees? That Drucker?
@@gamerforlife3946 If true, that sucks. Not sure about its relevance to my statement, though.
@@rikorobinson You said opposite to the theme. Yet he did it poorly to the point of making his employees want to bail because of how bad he treated them and the story
if psychotic schizophrenia with zero logic or cohesion is art, TLOU2 is a masterpiece
Don't know why people say "it's a shit story".
This game had much more characters than TLOU1.
It even had a longer story & better plot. I think both of these games are masterpiece. Those who hate TLOU2, I could relate to you in 2020 but when I revisisted the game it changed me completely, maybe because I could handle the sadness this time.
But I still prefer TLOU 1 over part 2 because of more Joel & Ellie interaction.
TLOU 1 - 10/10 (perfect)
TLOU 2 - 9.7/10 (I wanted to play as Tommy so -0.3)
I still don't know how they managed to make such a great story.
Huge applauds to the developers.
Joel & Ellie have become my favourite characters of all time.
Oh yeah revenge bad what a good plot. TLOU2 is perfect test of persons emotional maturity and awareness. A lot of deaths are done for just cheap emotional shock. Cheap manipulation of a player by inserting stuff like dog or pregnant women. Wouldn't it be sad if the dog you played with died 20min later? You go trough the game killing everyone like it's a Rambo movie. At the end you don't even get the revenge and somehow the game decides now is a good time to stop. They want Ellie to suffer for her actions but Abbie seems fine after dooming her whole group of friends. Fucking her friends husband pretty much. Etc etc.
There are plenty of videos done by smart people who perfectly explain why this game has not a really great story. First game treated player with respect. Allowed you to think for yourself. It was up to you to decide how you see the ending. It never tells you that Joel's decision is bad. TLOU2 just manipulates your emotions and beats you with stick constantly because you will not know revenge is bad unless you get a good smack.
Everyone went into Part 2 thinking about playing Ellie and Joel again. That’s what killed off so many people. But the game was meant to be like life. Unpredictable. I loved part 2. I feel Part 2 had more of Deeper meaning as well. Part 1 was about mainly them surviving. Part 2 showed humanity of surviving.
I agree with all of this ...I love the game too however...I could never bring myself to replay this one... this game made me feel things I never thought I'd feel in a game by the end there were moments the game forces you to play that still haunt me
Same man it's not a game to be replayed honestly
I'll definitely replay it before season 2 of the show drops
When You fight as Abby against Ellie I couldnt stand it I was hopping Ellie to kill me
@@edgarvivar87 the transition from Abby pointing gun to Abby 3 years earlier was not a good choice they intensified the whole situation and then suddenly dropped it by a huge margin not even a steep decline, they should have added more in between just after she points the gun on her.
P.S. I didn't feel it this way tho, it was okay imo
@@edgarvivar87
That's kinda the point. That means the devs did their job. To make you feel those emotions, means the story was hitting home for you. It's gonna hit everyone differently, but it means you were invested in what was going on.
At different points throughout the game, I hated Joel, I hated Abbie, I hated Ellie, but by the end I only had empathy(and tears)
“Hated joel”. No wonder you liked the game…
@@gamerforlife3946 I felt like Abby represented everyone who disagreed with Joel's choice at the end of part I. I love both
Sorry, but you're completely wrong as to why people hate this game. People hate this game because it was a poorly written piece of fan fiction. It completely betrays the character of Joel and turns him into a moron. There's no way he would have gotten himself into that situation with Abby that resulted in his death. And then the game absolutely trolls you by FORCING you to play as Abby just for the lols. I can honestly tell you that no, nobody wanted Abby to live. Everyone wanted her to die because she's a shit character. And then, to top it all off, Neil Druckman flat out lied and intentionally misled his customers by intentionally releasing trailers that had an aged Joel in scenes long after he was dead in the game and making it appear as if he was the main character once again.
Thinking this game is a “masterpiece” is one of the most delusional opinions one can have. It’s pathetic how people make excuses for this insult of a story.
The problem I had with the story of TLOU 2 was HOW Abby killed Joel. We love Joel but I could understand Abby wanting revenge but I can’t understand Abby torturing Joel. A long drawn out painful death in front of his daughter figure. Then playing as her and painting her as a character that wouldn’t do that. The how didn’t match the character at any other point. It’s hard to sympathize with her because of how she killed him.
remember that time joel bashed someone's head in who never threatened him in any way...
oh ya...that never happened
abbey is a psycho, and her dad was a piece of shit too
He literally killed her father and most of her friends. If someone did that to me, I'd want them to suffer too.
i agree. no matter how hard the game wanted to force me to empathize with abby i couldnt bacause i witnessed what she did to joel
People that say they don't "understand" why Abby kill Joel the way she did really are just to hangout to Joel and can not even understand why he did in the first game.
Joel just didn't kill Abby's dad, he destroy the opportunity to try to create a cure something that the Fireflies were telling people they were pursuing to save the world and killed Marlene the leader of the Fireflies. So Joel no just killed his dad, but robbed Abby and his friends to have a purpose in life, been part of the Fireflies and saving the world something that they thought they were doing. And it doesn't matter how many theories you read about how the cure could work or not, what matter is what the character thinks. And Owen said it clear when he deserted the Wolfs, he was tired of fighting an enemy he didn't hate for a land he didn't care, he just wanted to go back to Fireflies and have a purpose.
@@anthonyvallejo9127 you literally witnessed what Joel did to humanity and countless other people during the events of the first game lmao
yeah this game is still far from a masterpiece, the story is not well structured, it has the worst endings in videogame history, character choices make zero sense in the end of the game, and there's a huge discrepancy between cutscene Ellie and gameplay Ellie, if people think this game is hated just because of Abby and or that the game "makes you feel bad" then you're just not seeing the whole picture.
It made perfect sense.. That's not the game's problem, thats your problem.
@@jrich6660 no it really didn't, ellie stopping dead on track for her revenge to have a "farm up north" only to just go back to have a murder boner again only to lose it at the last second made no sense, her girlfriend abandoning a perfectly functional, easily defendable space to live in a POSTAPOCALYPTIC WORLD made even less sense, and don't give me the "it's the home she built with Ellie so it hurts to live there" bullsh*t, there were there MONTHS hardly anytime at all for it to become a place of "painful memories", the game's pacing is the worst part, had this game alterned between Ellie and Abby instead of half the game with Ellie and Half with Abby would've made Abby more relatable and not as hated, the last chapter feels really tacked on as if it was supposed to be DLC but added on last minute, I could go on but I don't want to make a bible out of this comment.
@@omarreyes7626 What? LOL
Explain to me how it was a perfectly functional family when Ellie was CLEARLY struggling to move on? D
Explain to me how did she stop "dead on her tracks for revenge" when she had no idea where Abby went after her fight in Seattle?
Did you even read the journal where she was suffering with PTSD for MONTHS? Did you even HEAR the cutscene where she couldn't EAT or SLEEP? Do you realize how they made her body skinner to visible show that she was struggling to move on.
I don't know what game you were playing, but it clearly wasn't this one because it wasn't "perfectly functional."
She went because of guilt and believed these problems would go away if she got her revenge.
As I said, I don't know what game you were playing because it wasn't TLOU 2.
This is enough of a motivating factor to for her to go look for Abby and you're saying it doesn't make sense. LOL
@@jrich6660 No, It doesn't. And I don't think it ever will. I'll only point out one terrible plot point to make it easy:
Tommy immediately giving away to a group of armed strangers information about himself, his brother AND JACKSON, knowing damn well there bandits and worse exist.
There is absolutely no justification for Tommy's actions and Joel's situation here. This along with a multitude of other poorly executed plots/themes sadly soured what would have been a generation defining game. And we are all worse off because of it..
@@dankmeme682 You mean Tommy's name Abby already knew before arriving in Jackson? A name Joel shouted when he asked Tommy for ammo while they were fighting off infected with Tommy? Giving their names well before they knew Abby had friends?
I've seen so many people say this and it's obvious you guys didn't pay attention to the dialog. lol.
Want to try something else? Because this didn't work.
Interesting analogy, but disagree
Nope, bad writing and dragged out dialog. The game looks Phenomenal though. Jole Being killed off doesn't bother me, it's how he's killed off and how stupid Abby is.
This is probably the best video I've seen on your channel. I really dig it man
The last of us 2 ohh man what to say how the creators fucked up the story and Joel character jesus i really wasted my money on this one whole game was on. Revenge and in the end she let abby go wtf? For me clearly game was ended when Joel return from hospital with ellie other than that its soo stupid game