Is this Blizzard's most likely solution for the Mythic+ Leaver Problem?
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
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Today was in AD+22, we went left at the start for the first pack to lust, the Resto shaman didnt lust, tank told him he had lust, he said Yes and left the key/group. Ive never been so baffled in my life! do something blizz!
hopefully they will, but this video is about WHAT they might do. Do you agree with me that this is the most likely thing they might do?
Had something near enough the exact same, running AD+20 only player with lust in the group was a shaman, tank said at the start we'll go left big pull please lust, shammy said yes. Pulled didn't lust killed them anyway then we ran to Rezan and jumped down shammy missed my shroud pull the small pakc just to the right before the steps wiped then he left
I literally had a tank leave on the second pull of a 20 BRH because we use the auto marker weak aura and my friend was lead and it put circle on the tank. They freaked out that they did not want circle or square and would leave. She said she would adjust the weak aura as soon as combat stopped becuase you cannot make changes in combat. The tank pulled the second group and left. 23 seconds into a pull and they torched the key over a freaking marker. And it was not that they did not want a marker, they just did not like the marker that was in place.
Sorry that happened but let's try to stick to the topic haha
record ur runssssss, that wouldve been great
They would need to overhaul the affixes and/or give many more specs the ability to deal with them. Also, lust, windfury, power infusion, augvoker, etc would make people hate the automated solution more than what is in place.
Ya they would have to change the affixes for sure. Discussed that in the video. The rest I'm not sure about. How does it work in pvp?
if they made mythic plus like this, I would no longer be interested in mythic plus.
Why's that?
I absolutely love the solo queue idea, and this is how i think it should work.
You have a drop-down menu and you can choose which level of key you wanna queue up for.
In order for you to select a certain level you need minimum rating.
This would increase the amount of keys played by A LOT.
On average it takes me 1 hour to get into a key as a dps player, there is just to many dps options out there.
Like this even if i wait for the queue to pop for 30 mins that's better than one hour.
Obviously tanks and healers will have faster queue and that's somewhat ok.
Also i would give the ability to queue with more people so if you wanna do a key with a friend or two you can do that and then the queue will pop once it finds two more players for you.
Love you brainstorming this! Really cool ideas. I can see it working like that honestly.
not sure if that would actually reduce the actual leavers though. But I do agree that the main point is to shift the psychology
Ngl there's a reasonable chance I'd just leave faster and get the 30min dungeon leaver queue. There isn't a punishment since I can still use custom group finder.
This is nice and all, but think a bit deeper… What if you don’t get 2 ppl to deal with incorp properly or afflicted? What if you don’t get someone who can cr or bl? And then also, making this system like this, they would need to track your main character’s score, because if someone has 3k on their main, and then you want to do a 16 on your 450 character, you should be allowed to do so because you have the experience, so that means ilvl AND score requirement together is a better metric, make the ilvl requirement a bit lower and if you have a high score main, it should be a fine balance since it is usually not ilvl that holds people back, but the fact that they are fucking stupid… And also, making a system like this, who in their right mind would queue for some key levels like this, something like a 19 or 15? Those give the same rewards, but just for more effort. These are just a couple of points, i am sure there are more weaknesses to this system.
@@adriankovacs4133 I agree on the part that you don't know who you will get. I don't really know if they 're gonna do the affixes or not but who' to say they 're not gonna leave still?
One thing I considered this morning also would be for blizz to track things that actually help groups progress and tie to individual benefits (likely would require soloqueue tbh) such as, interrupting casts with kick gives you some points, dispels give points, avoiding or dealing with a mechanic gives points, if you accumulate X points over a dungeon you get bonus crests/currency/whatever, maybe do it as a group and it cumulatively gives bonus % chance for another drop to get back to 3 items per key or something although application to a group overall won't impact leaver situation and may make pugging worse.
Ya that would require solo queue for sure and likely still not be considered even if.
Things like that sound good on paper but there are only so many things that can be interrupted or dispelled.
People would be fighting with each other for kicking in volume instead of kicking effectively.
And then you have priests haha.
It's a neat idea, but mythic plus is always meant to be a team activity.
Getting a new way to modify your key sounds awesome just in general and rewarding the resource to do it by completely keys regardless of timing it would be cool as well.
solo que only sounds good for like weekly 15s but anything else higher just sounds like a bit of a cluster. So much more goes into making a group then picking people really close to you in rating.
No doubt solo queue doesn't sound optimal. But sadly so many people keep asking for it even without realizing they are asking for it. I expect blizzard will listen.
Make a dust that transfers into Aspect Tokens. The Titanforged Podcast was talking about an item from the Token vendor that upgrades the track an item is on so you can invest in current drops and as a form of protection if you can't get a thing to drop on higher item levels. I think a combination of the two would massively incentivize completing a dungeon because the vendor sells sparks, sockets, and crests already.
In my experience no one really cares about gear at all past the first few weeks.
i would definetly want a system which could "direct" the vault or drops to a slot like rings. Ever since the new season started i still have the same champion ring :\ (rings never drop for me). it is greatly demotivating to spam keys and just getting gold for weeks straight. I dont leave keys and going through to help others, but personally this is getting harder and harder mentally to keep up with absolute monkeys meanwhile im getting no loot
@@alihorda ya mythic plus loot is awful and needs an overhaul as well. I have a complex solution for that too.
Basically trade three rings in for a new one through professions.
But that was my idea in shadow lands.
Do you feel like now with crafting these problems have gone away?
Other than trinkets I feel like they have.
@@heythereguysitsMetro professions are useful! One of my ring is signet of titanic insight. But to craft another ring to 486 would be costly since I prioritise upgrading my other gear as Aug evoker (due to intellect increase). For vault I just pick the extra socket slot since it rarely gives what I lack
What about the debuff for leaving like the dungeon deserter debuff that you get when you leave a normal dungeon?
Discussed that in the video right? That requires a soloq system.
the debuff can not track whether people left by agreement or not
your suggestion for the m+ system overhaul would work imo(the currency idea nice touch), but there's those who would still leave over random stuff which would require a penalty that would increase over multiple keys left on a per week basis with your solution mentioned.
Edit: tldr,
if there's a "reward system" in play there must be a "penalty system" as well. also solo que for m+ wont solve anything imo
Well soloq would be required for any traditional penalty.
But ya I don't agree that penalty is needed once you shift the psychology away from upgrading being the only thing that matters.
Once completing any key you do is the most important thing, anyone who leaves is just not interested in their own progression. It's like the video I have posted with people leaving upgrades. There will always be idiots out there.
But it will be far far lessened in it's impact, especially when you can protect your key or upgrade it back up to the level you want.
I think you're dreaming if you think there is a currency that would incitate player to stay and finish the key, nothing would be worth wasting 20 minutes to finish a key because at some point you just cant get more powerful, and if the currency doesnt get you more powerful, you don't want it.
I think a simple solution would be a "surrender" option and a penalty if you leave, a 15min ban from joining a group, followed by 30min, 1hr, 2hr... that will stop people real quick from leaving. And as we can see it in league, if everyone is ok with the key being over and don't want to finish, everyone can surrender !
Maybe you just didn't understand the purpose of the currency. The currency would be for enhancing your own keystone. Under my system, you'd be constantly running other people's keys just to potentially push your own easier.
Either way, your second suggestion is basically just solo queue.
I don't understand why you're referencing solo queue, this has nothing to do with it. I think not being able to choose who you go in a dungeon with would be horrible, and many people are critizing the pvp solo queue for that reason.
The game know you're in a Mythic+, nothing stop blizzard from just making penalty now without modifying anything on how m+ key works. I dont understand why we have a penalty for leaving a heroic dungeon, but not a m+ one, doesnt sound logic to me especially when you're way more invested in the m+ one! A penalty would force player to communicate and agree on if the key continues or not
@@heythereguysitsMetro
@@flapat854 I explained it in the video.
You can not have a punishment or any of the other stuff people ask for without more concrete rules for FORMING the group too.
You say "I dont understand why we have a penalty for leaving a heroic dungeon, but not a m+ one."
That's the reason. There is rules for forming a heroic dungeon through the LFG system. If you want to enter a heroic dungeon on your own, with none of those rules, you can still do that too.
Solo Que:
1. Every one in group has to have the key say DHT 20
2. the Person who leaves the Key based on the timer drops by that much for example if he leaves any time before 3 level timer depletes by 3
Well what punishment they choose is a whole different conversation. But I dont think yours would be considered haha. Sounds quite extreme.
Very well said Metro. Thanks for sharing. I don't like the idea of solo queue for M+. I like your idea of a currency for completing a key. I think this solves the problem. If this is tied to gear upgrade then everyone would want to complete them. I also think if that if Blizz let you see how many keys a player has run in total (completed in time, completed, not completed) like you said a few vids back this would also help.
Ya, I don't like the idea of soloq much myself either, but it does seem like the most likely choice from Blizzard.
We will see!
i dont think good m+ players will use solo q when its also possible to build ure own group like now
Ya, this would just be for the pugging aspect.
The currency system is a good idea, I've been thinking maybe there could be a "leave score", but you only get a score when you manually leave the party before the party has done a "vote to disband / end key", something like that might work if frequent leavers get labeled, sort of like some fighting games does where it shows if a player has a high disconnection rate, so you end up not playing with them because the chance is they'll alt+f4 before the match is over
Ya, and so that would require them make a solo queue idea. See how it all leads back to that?
First blizz should end key system and make something like Visions/Thorghast, where completion its the goal. You can add affixes for extra rewards and achievs and if you complete a dg level you unlock the next one, if you complete on time you unlock +2 levels (so you dont have to do 10 dg to unlock something +10). That would remove this key system where if someone leave or dc or just play bad, you loose your key. That way you can just form a new group and try it again if something goes wrong or just complete the key since timing aint the main goal so a wipe wont hurt so much. And that leaver thing would be a great warning to show in lfg so you know that this person leaves a lot of keys so you don't invite them.
I think OPs idea would work without having a solo queue. Working within the confine of current LFG. You could make it, that when the key activates, you're placed into a similar instance akin to a queued instance. This could allow them to handle punishment a bit better, though instead of showing their leaver stats to others and causing more toxicity, they could take future run penalties like less loot, IO score reduction.
I personally don't think a solo queue system will work at high end, but up to a certain key, queue systems might help new players enter a bit more smoothly. @@heythereguysitsMetro
Solo queue m+ would create a problem when you don't get to choose the utility your group brings. In solo pvp (solo shuffle in particular) the solution is that your team shuffles every round, so you won't play with the same comp 6 rounds in a row. In a m+ you will be stuck with no bloodlust or battleres for 30 minutes. Part of the solution could be increased gold rewards at the end of higher keys (21+) so you at least have motivation to get a cashback on repair or/and consumables. Don't make a ridiculous number so it won't be a gold farm, just make it so if you want to leave you are losing the gold on repair (and consumables).
Ya, solo q would be a lot less controllable for sure, that's why we talked about ways Blizzard might change keys in general to facilitate that.
why doesn't blizzard or add-on io record # of leaves. seem easy to add line of code but im not programmer
Its intentionally hidden, likely.
Have a whole video on that here: ruclips.net/video/8BmGgdkln6k/видео.html
I think currency system would work best but not for cosmetic items because most people who are pushing high keys won't care about that stuff much.. instead I would add:
- An item that grants you a buff that you are guaranteed to get loot in the next dungeon (this for keys below 20)
- Buy a key directly of your choice.. so if you have a +26 DHT but you don't want to do that, and you don't want to gamble after you finish a dungeon you could buy a key of your choice that's the same level as what you own
- An item that the keyholder can use at the start of the dungeon that adds 1 extra minute to the dungeon timer.
I think if you could buy stuff like this people would be more likely want to finish keys even if they are bricked.
Ya I like a currency that allows you to improve your progression some way for sure. I think that helps balance completions into a situation where people want to do them as much as upgrade keys.
Would a stat like “# of completed untimed 20+ keys” help? Like if I saw a mage queue and shows he has 100 overtime completed keys… that means he’s reliable to not leave early? Or would the pug community use that as a stat to exclude people instead. “Oh 100 out of time keys.. must be a scrub - declined”?
Absolutely, but currently there are no api hooks for the start of a key. The only thing that gets recorded is the completion of a key.
To me, that's further evidence that they would do a soloQ to fix all this, because obviously there would then be plenty of LUA stuff for the formation of the group.
The thing that bothers me is everyone who is against punishment for leavers (other than immediately outing themselves as a leaver) is that they will come up with literally any scenario to counter punishment. Like if you say you need a voting system to end a key like 3/5 people they will say "but then I'm going to be held hostage" or "what if I have an emergency" and I can guarantee you 99.9 of people who leave keys are not leaving because of an emergency lol.
Ya best to just not worry about those conversations. They are not coming from a place of good faith. This problem has gotten too serious to listen to fringe concerns like that.
I would change the following
1-Fail key don't go 1 level lower, fail a 17? stay a 17, it is what it is
2-Fail key should not get a lower crest, there is literally no argument pro lower the crest number you get if you fail
3-Give end of dungeon rewords for each key you finish, a bag that contains gold, and a chance for transmog items/mounts/runes, you name it, the mount/transmog item you get from rise is a good example
Do you think that is what Blizzard would do though?
That's what we are discussing here today.
I doubt that, i sincerely doubt blizzard will do something, it might sound negative but their past record is not that good, if i have to bet on something from blizzard, i would bet on a deserter debuff @@heythereguysitsMetro
I had a thought... What about a post dungeon voting system? Something like what league does. There's positive votes and negative votes, but the negative ones needs at least 3 to stop from griefing someone. This would be tied to your Io so group leaders can see.
Yup that's something they could do with soloq for sure.
a system of success rate:
- let’s say you did 5 x11keys and 5 x15 keys and 5 x20 keys.
- weight of keys is 1 for up to 11, 2 for up to 17 .3 for anything more than 17
- so your maximum possible score for completing all 15 runs is 5x1 + 5x2+ 5x3= 30
• let's say you left 2 of 20 ones? 5+10+9= 24 so (24/30) x100=80% success rate.
• so to get your success rate to near 90% you decide to spam easy keys
• for example, you need to do 30 runs of up to 11 runs, 30x1=30
• your previous max was 30 and by new it will be 30+30=60
• your achieved completion score was 24 and by new it will be 24+30=54
• your success rate is (54/60) x100= 90%
Ofc I’ve explained it in basics and weights and factors were the examples. A good programmer can put more factors and near to expectation weights and details and easier calculation when it is a matter of hundreds of runs monthly for each player so database doesn’t hurt for renewing the rate.
In the end it will help new players by having geared/skilled players with higher m+score be on their low keys for any reason. Ofc there can be many flaw to this theory but I believe it is something worthy to discuss. There can be some milestones that rewards you by for example in game currency to help you improve your progress so as you mentioned it can’t be all about punishing. also the solo que or preventing 4 man que etc had a little success in some games such as dota 2 for example to prevent dictating whatever those 4 demands vs that 1 key holder. maybe a vote system that all 5 players should vote to end the run without penalty to success rate is not that bad? in the end it is a matter of players be more human and fair to each other.
You believe that is what blizzard is most likely to do?
@@heythereguysitsMetro i believe that's an idea worth to be discussed. My short answer is, if it gets popular among players then yes. But based on my experience it won't happen or in best won't happen anytime soon.
@@heythereguysitsMetro that's why the work people like you are doing is very important. To put that idea on the table to be mentioned there should be data about leaving ratio and reasons of leaving. Your excel should get to right hands to be studied carefully and I'm sure very useful valuable informations can be extracted to be the base of some good changes. If i was blizzard i would invite you to work with them and pay for your effort about gathering such detailed excel.
I think we’ve been going about it the wrong way for years with the idea of a punishment system. I believe a reward system for good behavior and finishing runs incentives people much more than punishment, as well as encourages good behavior.
Yup, totally agree. We should be working towards incentivizing completions and changing the psychology around the M+ rewards.
I think a solo queue would work well in lower keys, the 2-15 range, but wouldn't work at higher keys simply due to the tank/healer issue. Any manually formed group will have much better group balance, and as a result, be more likely to succeed. Your healers and tanks for high keys would then want to go to manual groups where they have much greater control of group quality. This would leave solo queue group times being insanely high. Solo queue works better in pvp because you can dynamically change roll makeups, you can have a 10 player bg with 1 healer on each side, 2 healers, or 3 healers, and still have balanced bgs. You can't just run 5 dps M+ keys when no tanks or healers are signing up.
I think the right way to look at it is a separate pathway entirely. They shouldn't play the exact same, because ya otherwise people will just choose the one that they are more successful in.
I don't believe that, past that, you'd be right about tanks and healers though.
There are no shortages of them in the pug world.
The only question is how tight would score have to be for a key signup.
There may be a lot of tanks, but perhaps few within the range for the key at any given time.
The person who leaves should lose score that would stop a lot of it.
That wouldn't work at all as you can leave infinite keys but only get score from your highest keys.
@@heythereguysitsMetro But if you left infinite keys you wouldn't build much score even from your highest keys if you were a habitual deserter, do you not think it would keep people from leaving if say they were docked 100 io that is a lot of io I believe it would stop a lot of people from leaving groups.
I kind of agree. There is a thing called "game theory" and the prisoners dilemma, this is one of these situations. You are talking about boosting the score people get for co-operating. That will lead to more cooperation but sometimes people wont value what you add to the end of dungeons so you need to do more than just boost the score for co-operating, you also need to punish those who don't co-operate (the leavers). A combination of both will give the optimal solution.
I don't think you need a solo queue m+ to punish them. You just need a kind of contract so when people join the group they agree to the terms, one might be "no leaving before 20 minutes" "you can leave after 5 wipes" or whatever. Add this contract system in and let the group leader decide them, that way you can have flexible groups with leaving if you don't mind, and strict groups that require you to stay for 3 hours and 40+wipes.
Personally, I don't like the idea of a solo-queue for m+. People will not like blizzard’s solution for who they pick, and they will get frustrated. The community will decide a meta and the queue algorithm won’t be in on it. People will start to circumvent the solo-queue by making pre-made groups and doing it the old way. You will then have a fragmented player base.
Just talking about how the systems in the game works when we talk about soloq being required here.
Currently when pugging there are no rules for forming the group, so step one would be adding those. Making sure every group has a tank healer and three dps, keeping it fair who gets invited, etc.
Like other systems that already exist.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I could get on board with that. I just worry because I know some people form groups for things like leveling, or running old dungeons for transmog etc.
There might have to be groups that can form that dont have 3 dps, a tank and a healer. It could be 5 dps running old dungeons together. We would have to make a group with enforced rules optional (such as 3dps, tank, healer, and so on).
@@Happydrumstick93 you cant run old dungeons on M+, only what's available in the season, so old content should not even be a factor my guy. soloq M+
@@lewischristopher8906 I think you misunderstood what I was saying. You can form groups to run old dungeons. People do this to farm transmogs etc. That same way you form groups can be used to run a m+ dungeon.
So if you have to add restrictions on it you would prevent this form of play If you didn't people would just use this way of forming groups instead of the m+ pre-made group finder that has restrictions.
I think io needs to go away and we get a different rating. If you upgrade a key you go up if you downgrade or disband you go down. I dont think getting people to care about a currency will work because all you have to do is pug and then the currency doesn't matter, you dont need it if you dont do your own key. This mmr system would make climbing much harder. If you're failing keys it would probably put you down into keys you've previously timed, but maybe thats still a better solution. Going afk, inting, or just not contributing would most likely become an issue if leaving is more punishing than finishing out of time. This shit is hard man wtf do you do lol
I'm not in favor of that myself. I do not view score as an MMR and do not think that has any place in PVP. It would encourage people farming easy content, and makes me concerned with how you would return score after losing it.
Sounds like it would push a lot of people away, simply because for every unsuccessful key they would need a second key to get them back to where they were.
I suppose it works in Arena, where games are short.
But 40 minute dungeons may not be the best place to treadmill players.
Encourage tenacity by rewarding finishing even after the timer. I think punishments should be based on when during the run the leaver leaves. I have been in groups when we blew the timer and spent another 15 minutes trying to beat the last boss in ToTT for example. Everyone just got to the point where we realized it just wasn't going to happen. I don't think anyone should be punished in that case; on the contrary, some form of reward would at least provide a consolation for the time spent trying to problem solve and finish the dungeon.
Ya, my preference is that system too. One where you flip the psychology to make every key you enter want to be finished, not just upgraded.
I have outlined it a few times now, but tldr is a currency you get from finishing keys that you can spend to augment your own key some way.
Protect it, reroll it, maybe even upgrade it?
@@heythereguysitsMetro I like that. Could be kind of like the vault system in that you can spend the currency towards either upgrading your key or even upgrading a piece of gear from Champion to Hero for example. I use that example because I think about how many times I attempted to run Rise to get Gorehowl and of all the time spent, probably half of those runs were plagued with leavers. I'll say this, it comes down to personal responsibility as well and being mindful of other folks' time as much as we are of our own. Sucks to sign up for countless groups and wait in queue for 15+ min (Fury Warrior) finally get an invite and a big ego player (tank) leaves on the first pull (entire first room in Fall) because "You guys aren't doing enough DPS.....good luck with higher keys".....
Hot take they just remove keys and use the already in place dungeon queue system. You can select what dungeons you want or go random, select what level you want based on gear drop gated by rating, and you queue. Or you can form a party and queue. This would eliminate not getting invited if you aren’t in the “meta” and leavers already get punished in that system with lockouts. Big problem with solo queue keys is utilities. Theres a potential for you to get put in a key with no hero. Or no battle res. Fix for that is every tank should have brez and every healer should have hero. Take them away from all dps no more “lf lust” “lf brez” bs either. Also get rid of affixes like incorporeal that require talent changes and hard CC. Then like you said dungeons starts you get like 30s to do whatever. And if someone leaves fuck it requeue and continue the run 4 man. If you complete time you get 2 drops plus currency. If you complete out of time by a little bit you get 1 drop plus currency. If you are way over you can disband and still get currency by no drop. Dial back the key scaling so like M+1-6 is all item level then after 6 it’s infinitely scaling. The gear level jump from normal to heroic to mythic is huge. Continue that trend in +. You want to do a +2 run a bunch of +1 to get your item level up.
I think if they did do a soloq the keystone system would totally change. Maybe even be removed there. For pushing though I don't think they will ever consider that.
Something a lot of people don't think about is the keystone is your ticket to a group always.
in last couple of years game was simplified so many times because everyone is just complaining. No, there should be no queue, same as there are no queue for RBG or Cutting Edge. Now I know it sounds harsh, but if you want to do higher progress you need to join community, in this case guild. Also a lot of players are joining keys where they think it's smart to learn while they are trying to time the key. Don't be lazy, watch few videos on mechanics, learn what mobs are priority, learn how to stun and interrupt, read guide on mechanics. Improve yourself spend some time on dummies and try to improve your DPS. It's all about lazy players. My M+ experience is above 90% success rate because I'm playing with premaids. So try to find good guild and make few friends on battle net if you see that they are good in early pugs, create your own circle of players who are capable of reaching same level as you. At the end you are probably watching OneAzeroth to learn, so learn when he's talking where others are making mistakes. I know pug is pissing everyone, so try to avoid pug.
Sorry but avoiding pugs is not a solution. There is a big problem here and it needs to be addressed by the company. It has gone too far to just ignore.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I'm just talking from my perspective, I skipped last xpac because of pug. This one I'm in guild where everyone is 3k+ RiO and Mythic raiders (I don't raid, but I help them with M+, they help me if I need something from raid) also I have over 20 people on my friend list that are capable of doing keys, and these are not my IRL friends, I found them in pug and they liked how I play and I liked how they play (some of them just up to 18 or 20 but we will help each other in best possible way, because we are friends). There is nothing funnier when you all fail mechanic and you laugh together instead of blaming each other, because you know you can do it next time, it's not the end of the world. This is how I solved my problems with pug. Game have guild system and friend list for reason, if you don't like guild find another one, if someone is toxic ignore him or remove him (same as in real life). Game have solution but players are not using it. And yes I'm anti social person highly introvert and still able to find guild and communicate on discord with "strangers". But on the other side you need to prove yourself to guild and show some skill to be accepted, same as battle net friends, so at the end you need to work on yourself and stop blaming others.
Hi everyone, something I'm kind of affraid of with solo queue, is the comp of the group. Because there are already some classes that's struggle to get into a key, so let's imagine you can kind of select the classes/spec you want in your key, that will will make it impossible or even more impossible to get into the keys for the non meta classes. And If you can't choose at all, it's just IO based, what if you need and evoker oir a Bl or a Cr ? I liked a lot better your idea of voting into the key. But not so easy to fix :(
It's possible they would change the way major utility works all together. Like in pvp, bloodlust and battle rez are disabled.
They certainly would never restrict or allow you to select classes though. This would be the solution to the issues with meta vs non meta.
I do think incentivizing competition is the correct move forward. Because if make a mistake and just leave you do not learn from the mistake made in the dungeon and then when you just go next that is basically ignoring the mistake. If people try there hardest and it actually turns out to be impossible for the group to do the dungeon the players will just leave and de-rank the key at the vender until they are able to compete it. And also if they keep trying to compete they are at least learning how to deal with what the mistake was. Especially since a lot of mechanics repeat.
Ya well said all around. Shifting the psychology to completion instead of only upgrade is the best way to solve my specific issues with the system.
But I think blizzard has bigger plans.
Bring in a voting system for leaving a key that has started and if the majority vote to leave thats fine, but if you start leaving too many keys with no vote then block vault slots. If someone has already left the key with no vote then the others get no punishment when they leave.
Leave too many keys with no vote and you get no loot from the vault the next reset.
That could be the form of punishment they do for the soloq but it would require that first.
Here is an idea that I have that does not change the fundamental way that keystones themselves work, but it changes the way rating works:
First: Blizzard needs to change keystones to be an instance rather than a party. They already have systems implemented to track when you leave instances. These instances would work similar to Raid Finder/Heroic dungeons BUT you would NOT queue for them. The instance would start by the party leader putting the keystone into the key thingy in the dungeon, and your instance would contain the 5 people you found by listing your group in the group finder and choosing who you let in. The players would not notice this change. It is purely a backend change.
Why is this important: It can track who leaves the key first.
This can allow for a fundamental change to the way that keystone rating works. My idea for m+ rating is similar to PVP rating. If you have 0 rating, and you time a 20 key it gives you a huge boost of rating (+150 or something). But the higher your rating is, the less rating a 20 key can give.(if you have 2k rating and time a 20, maybe it only gives 30 rating). This goes until you hit a cap, (like 2700 or 3k) where a 20 will not give you any more rating. The cap differs with each key level. With the functions that an instance has, blizzard can track the first leaver of a key, and maybe depending on the level it subtracts rating (-100 for the first person to leave a key). Then maybe the other 4 would lose 50 rating or something. Very similar to how losing a PVP battle subtracts rating. Completing a key over time would just not cause a rating change at all. They could figure out systems for first completion bonuses or other stuff. But I think a dynamic rating system could potentially be very good for the game, especially since all of the tools required already exist for PVP! Not sure tho, maybe they can test stuff out in S4!
I just don't think instances work that way.
Even if they did a "soloq" that allowed you to queue with 5, you would still have to choose to enter that environment. You would still have to queue.
What I find best is trying to find analogous systems that already exist and seeing how they can be fitted for Mythic+.
Yes, its possible Blizzard can totally reinvent the rules of these things, but do you believe they would?
That's why I titled the video as I did.
This to me is the most likely solution, because people keep asking for it in one way or another, and its already been shown to work in pvp.
And I think it would be best to just stick to discussion around that likelihood for now.
People have a lot of creative ideas, and I'm glad that the juices are flowing on that front.
But I think your idea is simply too complicated to be without structural flaws. And that would need to be the case for Blizzard to consider it, let alone want to sink a ton of man hours into it, just to fix Mythic+ leaving in pug groups.
All in all, its a pretty niche issue.
What if for every leaver Blizzard has a High level AI to fill that role for us.
I would actually love this. It's another likely solution honestly. But it's a pretty funny one to think about because I legit would just choose the bots over the players most times.
Why do they just make it so you cant leave the key before it's actually depleted? Everyone need to stay and do the best they can because they cant leave anyway when the key is alive!?
They didn't actually do anything at all in terms of group forming or leaving. It's just your standard party that has existed since day one of classic. You can invite anyone for any reasons and leave for any reason too.
That's why I am talking about them doing the soloq. They likely will want to establish a more formal pathway for puggers with rules about entering and leaving parties.
They need to introduce a % of completion. If the whole group agrees then no one loses rating. If you have someone holding your key hostage you make so that when no mobs are killed for like 7m the key starts to disband on its own. This disband will be in a different category. It's not perfect but if you see someone with a really high "unfriendly disband" where they have been the one to not accept it will make you reconsider inviting them.
Also, keys should reward extra currency or gear, or something if you have everyone at like a 95% more or completion rate in the dungeon.
This is going to leave those that leave keys out because people won't invite them that much to not lose on the rewards. It's not perfect but perfect is the enemy of done.
And it doesn't have to be solo que. Solo que in PvP is even more toxic than normal arenas
Because people blame healers and throw games on purpose.
On another not related topic I was thinking that affixes should be optional. And that they should give you different rewards.
Like when you out the key in you can choose what affixes there are going to be. Imagine if having 8 affixes would count the dungeon as 4x dungeons for the vault. Or bolstering granting you an extra gear slot or something. More currency etc.
It would be an interesting way to make things less stale over the course of the season
Well either way, all those ideas would require a system that forms the group for you with set rules about the formation.
So basically SoloQ.
Try to not think about it as a 1 to 1 comparison to PVP.
PVP is just a mess to be honest. But the idea there is one that was asked for forever, and it was granted.
In M+ people are asking for it forever too. Even you yourself are doing so here, perhaps without even realizing it.
I really hate m+ leavers. in the prev season I had a guy downgrade a key from a 17 down to a 16 because they wanted to change their characters race using that toy. we got fed up with waiting so we started the key anyway even though he hadn't changed the race he wanted and as soon as the key started, they left.
Okay, but we are talking about what solutions Blizzard might implement to fix this today.
What are your thoughts on what they might do, given what we know about the company and the game at the moment?
You could keep the manual group forming as it is now, but have a tick box option to say “this is a friendgroup” so pugs could get the punishment system but a friend group doesn’t. Then they could apply a league system for punishments.
By default the “this is a friend group” option is not ticked and would be up to the party leader to make sure they tick it for friends/static players.
The only extra work for blizzard is tracking how often someone leaves groups to vary the punishment timer and for every group they were in, was the “this is a friend group” tick box not ticked.
And maybe they can vary the length of the time out depending on when someone has left, but that might be too difficult technically to do.
The only way blizzard will implement any punishment is if there is a more formal rule system for forming the group first. So pretty much any idea like this requires the soloq idea first.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yep but if there’s a solo queue and people just get a standard 30 min time out for leaving, then it probably won’t dissuade leavers much. Also if a manual group method still exists, why would people solo queue?
This is the kind of group that holds people hostage.
@@Aegea291 Because the systems would theoretically make it more likely to be successful. But realistically, because it would be very different, knowing Blizzard.
I think a solo queue is what blizzard will do because they already have the system in place for PvP. I don’t know how much work it would take to convert it to m+ though. Maybe it’s not as much as we think. It will however raise many other problems like you mentioned in the video. Ultimately it allows blizzard to punish leavers.
The currency idea I like a lot. It would take some getting used to before people’s psychology and the way they approached m+ changed.
I imagine the following: I spend the first 2-3 days of reset timing some keys and depleting others. I gain enough currency to protect my key from depletion x3. I gather a solid group, and now we have 3 opportunities to make mistakes, learn, time the dungeon, and boost everyone’s score.
In the current climate, the people referred to as “leavers” ultimately leave because the dungeon will not be a boost to their io score. Any system that helps the accumulation of score either directly or indirectly will go a long way in fixing the leaver problem.
Finally, blizzard could simply just stop keys from being depleted. Many many people have suggested this. If you and the party mess up or do a bad pull and know you’re way behind, you can simply run it back. The group would likely stay together for 2-3 attempts before a mutual disband was called.
Ya, I just think the best way to add the "stop keys from being depleted" thing is with the currency. Blizzard obviously wants to drag out the progression and make players want to keep doing more and more keys. So if they just straight up removed depletion always, it would potentially make keys much easier to push quickly, thus requiring less hours.
This system encourages players to actually play in order to do it instead.
I'm not sure Blizzard will do anything but a really simple solution is to just add a voting system to end the key. If 3/5 people vote yes then everyone is free to leave. If the vote fails or no vote takes place and you still leave then you get a 30 min (or whatever is fair) debuff where you are unable to enter any dungeon (this could be tailored to just the M+ dungeon rotation and be account wide). The debuff is long enough to deter random rage quits but not long enough to overly punish situations where things just happen out of your control. You don't need a solo Q or any fancy system to make this work. Obviously there's a chance for abuse if you join a 3 person premade but I feel like those are rare enough to not really matter in the grand scheme of things. It also allows premade groups to disband anytime they want and re-try other keys without punishment.
Is it the best solution? Probably not, but I think it's the simplest and would vastly reduce the amount of random rage quits.
Those ideas require a soloq system to ensure the group is formed with uniform rules. Right now you can just form a group without any rules at all so there would be no way to deliver debuffs or have votes.
That was a heavy point of discussion in the video. Was that not obvious?
@@heythereguysitsMetro I mean, It would be obvious that a group of 5 players in a dungeon that just placed a key into the holder, that they're doing a mythic together and just add the drop down option on nameplate to vote..no different than the ping system but it's only active after a key has been placed
@@lewischristopher8906 Not seeing how this is similar to the ping system.
I think you are just oversimplifying it.
Facts are, Blizzard does not create systems with rules about how groups break up without there being rules about how the groups form.
Right now, Mythic+ allows anything at all, from 1-5 characters, with any composition.
That would change, certainly, if they were to invest time into punishments and voting etc.
@@heythereguysitsMetro(i'm not commenting on soloQ just the present M+ situation) nothing would change, but a detection of a key being placed in and when you get re-instanced, the group is now a mythic group, which has an option to vote the key without any repercussions(aside from a downgraded key), I'm not saying anything about punishing people but that would be a way they'd be able to enact punishments if they deemed it needed (not on a case by case basis) Vote to kick wouldn't be a thing, because you'd have to do the same thing as if someone left, downgrade key and reform. with the soloQ deal that's a whole other can of worms.. THAT would be complicated as all hell..
@@lewischristopher8906 Not really. They have already tackled the problem in PVP, after many years of it being requested.
You have to think of it from their perspective.
No one asked for soloq as it is now. They wanted a system where they wouldn't have to pug directly to enter arena.
Its identical in Mythic+ just on the opposite ends.
People want people to stop leaving their keys when they pug.
So Blizzard translates that into "build a system to enforce rules on both ends of the group building."
There is a reason people always refer to the monkey's paw of development with Blizzard, sadly.
Although Solo que seems like a viable option, it is worth considering the implications when one desires a more relaxed experience. It is logical to assume that the system would take into account the player's M+ level to match them accordingly, as tackling higher-level keys can be demanding. Allowing higher-level players the opportunity to participate in lower keys may lead to a scenario where they abandon keys if they are dissatisfied. Regrettably, these individuals should be held accountable for their actions. If all players in a key are at the same level/rating and someone decides to leave, the key should not be depleted.
Realistically you'd only ever be able to do keys you are the right level for ya. Idk how they would handle it otherwise but frankly didn't think much on that topic.
Thank you for your response. In an ideal working environment, individuals strive to achieve their best and reach their fullest potential. However, it is important to acknowledge that mistakes can occur due to the imperfect nature of our world. Perhaps considering the possibility of addressing and resolving issues with individuals who exhibit a negative or defeatist attitude early on could be a valuable solution.
Plus enjoy the content 👍
@@rubygooderham glad to hear, thanks for contributing to the discussion!!
They just need to have it so any key is logged when the timer starts so rio etc can show all keys including failed/abandoned.
They would then need an NPC so you can downgrade your key if you want without that counting as you leaving multiple of your own solo keys to downgrade it.
Right, that was the last video discussing this.
Do you think they would be more likely to just do that and nothing else, or build out a system like this instead? I go back and forth on it.
There already is an NPC who downgrades keys…
@@heythereguysitsMetroidk if this comment refers to them adding the showcasing of failed keys or the npc, but npc is already in the game brother.
@@adriankovacs4133 you think I don't know there is an NPC to lower your key?
Well, i won't assume anything, maybe you don't. But you do, so it is clearly not that.@@heythereguysitsMetro
1. longs there no threats being made Blizzard proby wont do anything other then adding deserter debuff.
2. Adding 2nd Mythic+ without timer for people dont care for io but want higher gear without doing LFR or normal raids.
3. Heroic dungeon option is to get rid mythic+ just have heroic gear upgrade to 489 with tokens.
4. Start using blizzard in game voice chat coordinate attacks.
Deserter debuffs requires soloq.
Im a casual solo queue player and i will say that it works but it has it caveats. The positives, you will get the chance to play no matter your spec and or io score is. The major drawback are the queue times. Healers are a rare commodity and unfortunately necessary to play the game. The system literally wont let you form a group without one. Also depending on your rating, you might not have enough people in your bracket to form a group. The end result are people sometimes waiting up to 40+ min to play. Still , the funny thing is people are willing to sit in those crazy queues and go about their business waiting for it to pop.
And let me also add, solo queue isnt any less toxic. In fact it could be worse
It would be worse you would get held hostage LOL this type of stuff shouldn't be a thing with a system like dungeons @@Ullendwow
Ya and people already say it takes them that long to get into a random pug in mythic plus as it is.
Glad to see you man!
Thats interesting from the queue standpoint. At the end of the day, the solo queue system would provide blizzard more control over deserter behavior, but its jot going to completely eliminate it. Trolls are gonna troll.
I dont want to dismiss the idea of a solo queue because I think its worth a look in a ptr build if they decide to go that route. But theres a lot of factors that go into a dungeon group that is much more complicated than an arena match
@@Ullendwow Ya, the UI alone would be a mess I'd imagine.
There definitely needs to be a currency to protect keys, because I feel like that would allow players to be more lenient who they want to bring to prevent gatekeeping.
However, adding a consequence to leaving will just tighten the grip on gatekeeping. Flightstones and gear drops will not be a feasible solution because that won’t incentivize high end players that soley only chase IO. This will not effect gatekeeping because a majority of players in 22+ don’t care about loot.
IMO they should close the loop with non-timed keys showing up at all. That’s definitely #1 priority, and IMO it adds no benefit to the community knowing if I failed runs especially if it’s a homework key. This is definitely a fix they have to do.
I’m not opposed to a penalty that prevents you from receiving gear and IO. In which the duration is stackable depending on how many keys you’re leaving (you have to run a dungeon at no rewards to remove the debuff). I think they would have to put a voting system in place though to decide when the group wants to disband and it might be complicated. I think this issue is complicated because if you put a huge penalty, the community responds with more gatekeeping.
Another option is providing “good standing” status next to people’s IOs that indicates how many keys they leave. Again, would need a voting system because group disbands if a key is too difficult becomes a problem when it’s no longer feasible to complete a key. IMO the thus is the best to implement because it promotes people to perform their best regardless of class, and adds an incentive to be on good behavior.
Ya I think the currency to protect (and more) the key is the right solution. The other stuff just has so much grey area associated with it. I don't think they would consider it because it's not a concrete solution enough.
A problem with the last solution though.
1. Some people have to leave due to emergencies.
2. Some groups are extremely toxic and terrible - they play together. So you can be forced to stay with dickheads.
I’m unsure, but definitely a weird issue right now.
My immediate concerns for this idea mostly stem from the fact that players doing quite high keys just wouldn’t utilise the system. Which is fair. And fine, but with how much players love picking their comp etc, I believe people would still wish to take agency over their own key. The only way to fix that really would be to make the key not downgrade if you fail it.
Picking buffs is super important in keystones. And overlapping stuff would really be killer to performance. For example if it picked shadow priest and disc priest. It seems like something that would be ideal in a game where everything is perfectly balanced, everything has good cards to bring to the table.
Also I’m curious how the signup system would work in your eyes metro. Would you for example pick the dungeon you want to run, and the key level. Then wait for the queue to pop? Or would you select from a list of current listed keys and the system would just pick compatible members.
@@zoedawn7125 ya idk about how the sign ups would work honestly. My first impression would be you would have a menu with a bunch of boxes you could select that would be criteria for what you wish to sign up for. Dungeon for sure. Maybe level? Should players be allowed to do lower keys?
Ya idk haven't thought much on how they would handle it.
I think there is a good chance it would be a separate key or maybe even no key at all for soloq.
One think i have thought of is to change it where instead of instantly down ranking a key for failing, they should have a buffer around 2 min extra from the current timers to have it keep the same key level, and offer the chanceto redo the key. If you dont time it between then its not an obvious failed run.Most runs being that close to needing that extra minute or two is more execution than actually beating the timer.
That's why I suggest the currency, where you would be able to run dungeons, get currency, and use it to protect your keystone from going downwards.
ez solution I got.
when a group starts the key, every player in group gets -1 on his key. for any completion, everyone gets key lvl back, and key that was played still depletes or upgrades. so if u wanna leave - u get -1 on your key. also there is another problem of people just do not want their run to be on raider io. just let raider io to log all runs that you've been and list them even if not finished.
@@heythereguysitsMetro
I personally wouldn’t do keys if the groups were auto created. Despite the current systems flaws, I like having the freedom and ability to craft my own group composition. The current affix system doesn’t lend itself to class equality so there would need to be serious work done to resolve those issues as well. Blizzard already has a rudimentary system in the Mythic plus pre made group finder. You can already nominate what you are aiming for, eg timing, completion. Maybe those features need to be developed more to give more meaning and effect to their tags?
You could still do your key the same way obviously. It would work like pvp does now.
But it would likely be less popular to do it the old pug way.
The way to look at it is like this.
The soloq would be more flighty and fun. The goals wouldn't be progression only. It should make it more fun to just play, not only succeed. So the randomness of groups would play into the fun.
My thought is that Bliz need to be able to track a key start and finish in their API so that it’s possible to lose score by leaving a key and have an option for the group leader to vote for disband so that if the group is seriously stuck everyone can get out without a score loss. People that leave are so elitist about their scores. Why not punish that?
Just to add, we run 2 BM hunters, feral, holy priest and a prot pally. Not meta, but enough to reach 3k :p
The score likely wont ever be able to go down unless they totally redesign what it is.
Don't forget, you only get score for upgrading keys that are higher than the previous.
Its VERY hard to get score after a while.
But leaving keys, that can happen any time, on any key level.
You can't lose score for that.
The best case scenario here is to make a "completion" score, that you get for every single key you do, and then subtract score from that when you enter a key without finishing it.
The current score is just a measure of your progression, and we of course know failure is all part of the progression in the first place!
Punishment wont solve it, there are griefers that will do it anyway, we will never get away from these toxic mindsets.
Some people get actual enjoyment out of making others experience miserable.
Solo queue would require some filters or options you can select when queueing up as to what you provide, like Hero or not.
That way people should get a group that fits their toolkit.
The best method i think would just be to iterate upon the currently existing dungeon finder system.
To allow both groups and solo players the ability to select what they want from the role they lack as a group, or what you provide as a solo player.
I think they could do groups too in the queue but I imagine they would want to still have the regular keystone pushing remain so that's likely where groups would go.
solo queue and you end up with a bunch of azralon/ragnaros players who dont speak or english or know mechanics lol sounds great
It would be even more wilder than pugging is now haha
That's what makes me love the potential idea!
Had back to back 16 keys I was running for aspects today where a dps dropped on first pull of the dungeon. I think the solution is data. Show a % complete score or % leaver score that is shown to the person forming the group.
That would be helpful for us who want to avoid leavers but I think the solution should be something that encourages the leavers to their ways and rehabilitate the flawed thinking leading them down this path.
I like the soloq idea because then you could play key after key no matter what spec you are and just add a surrender vote, leaving without a surrender vote would have some negative effect. But also the soloq shouldn't use anyone's key, if you have to offer your key then what's the point of it when you can make your own group and invite classes you want ?
Ya idk how keys would world honestly. Something that needs to work well because you are right. I think it would be a separate keystone like they did with legion mythic plus time walking.
We've gone back and forth at this a few times Metro, you always bring me back to this - why do you think Blizzard has to do some sort of queue up system in order to punish leavers. IMO that system is in place for PvP because that is the only way to do instance PvP is by joining the queue. The queue system wasn't made to add a debuff for leavers of the instance. It confuses me why you think that Blizzard HAS to implement such a system just to handle debuffing a player that leaves a key. Do you say that from a fairness to the player perspective? Or that like, they have to build that system to build a technical back-end that can determine if a player left, etc..? I think if you join a key, you are understanding that this system exists.
As I've stated before they could just implement a player based voting system that is triggered once a key is started AND someone in the key's party leaves the group. It could be as simple as "Player X has left the dungeon, was this a mutual disband? Yes/No" and if a majority of the party says yes then you get a debuff, if you No they don't. If the timer depletes on the key, the vote simply never occurs because they key failed. I think people should still stick it out and finish the key (assuming the group can) but at least leavers at that point still are semi-justified.
As for rewarding completion - I do like your idea. Instead of punishing players, incentivize them to stick it out. I always believe in the "rule of cool" - as in it's always better to make a rule/change/mechanic fun than negative - these are games we're playing after all.
Just because we don't have any other place in the game where there are rules for how a ground ends, but not rules for how a group starts.
I think, from a game development stand point, this is not a coincidence.
But ya, we have dozens of places where you join with rules for putting the group together, and they all have rules for how the group splits up too.
Obviously Blizzard COULD do something, but I don't see how they would given right now you can enter a Mythic+ dungeon with any combination of players or composition.
Seems unlikely they would invest resources into a vote system where you can just start a key solo. They would want to make sure no matter what, the group was made in a fair way to ensure their rules are being distributed fairly too.
Something else that might not be obvious though is, Blizzard would likely want to create an alternative pathway with this system, like they did with PVP.
Its likely that they believe the current Mythic+ format is the competitive avenue they want, but they see that a lot of people are pugging, and thus want to give them a more uniform way to do that without having to be subject to the wild west of the group finder.
That last part is speculation, but again we have precedent for it all.
I hate this soloq system idea and i hate anytype of “punishment” system soloq would kill sooo much mmo aspect of the game u q and u just get randoms u go and do the dungeon and leave never rly interacting
What i think they should do is a actual BLIZZARD io system just stealing 90% of raiderio and get a rating system like pvp and for fixing leavers i like the idea of a currency that u can change or protect ur key the only thing im afraid of when they add a currency is that they might add items for purchase instead of getting loot from the dungeons and i would prefer the random chance to get a item from the chest
I also think they should fix the fucking gold u get from m+ and i think they can do it soooo well woth giving like 500-600 gold per completion +25% for +1 +50 for +2 and +100% for +3 that might even make guys help out with lower keys just do get some gold from carrying people and getting the currency for protecting key or changing dungeon so its a win win concidering that repairs cost up to 1k
I see how this can be abused for gold farming a +2 or something so maybe give this gold +% with the dungeon key lvl like it does with affixes
Keys lvl 0-4 no gold mod
Keys lvl 5-9 +1 = +25%gold
Keys lvl 10-14 +1= +25% gold +2=50% gold
Keys lvl 15+ +1= +25% gold +2=50% gold +3=+100% gold
I don't love the idea either but sadly people have been asking for punishment and thus a soloq for a long long time. Same with pvp, and they got it there. Feels like it's the logical next step sadly.
Okay, your idea is partially correct in my opinion, however I dont think you can stop the negative behavior with positive reinforcement if there isnt a drawback to missing out on it, and without a limitation on the amount of runs there is effectively no drawback.
What I really think it would be is a hybrid between the current system and a que system. It should not actually match you to players by mandate. Basically its just the current system except to get access to the network of games in the LFG you have to declare yourself as a M+ participant, basically throwing up a "in the pool" buff on you, then once you are accepted to a group you are "primed" and then as soon as the key drops into the pedestal you're "locked in" for 1 hour or until the key is cleared. If you leave, you aren't doing anything until that hour is up. If it sees that you've left once already in the past 24 hours, then it moves to three hours account wide, etc.
Think of it like visiting a military base or a school- as soon as you want to step in you have to announce yourself and be cleared, and then once inside you're allowed to go anywhere you are invited into or you can decide to just leave before bothering anyone else, but if you ask to be invited to a ceremony or active event, once admitted you're expected to stay until the proper time, and definitely wont be re-admitted if you just walk out at an inappropriate time. Do it many times and security will ban you for a time.
In this way its both solo que in that you can join the que by yourself but also gives the standard "choose your teammates to fit the team you want" but also the premade groups being completely fine as well. Then they could work out further kinks like if a group of 4-5 joins together- i.e. all were in a party before accessing the LFG/M+ system- and one of them drops out the others can elect to waive the penalty if they know its because they have bad internet, etc.
Basically I just set up a skeleton that requires several more iteration passes to be a complete system. All it really does is asks people to flag themselves so they can be punished if they misbehave.
TL;DR- its a more complex, opt in "Deserter debuff" system but account wide and creates the "this is a privilege" standard.
I agree in general with your premise. But the conversation here was about what would be the most likely solution for Blizzard. Frankly, I do not see them putting a ton of effort into the solution. And they have been hearing feedback for solo-queue like solutions being added for a long while.
So to me, it seems like that is what they would do. They would do it because they likely still don't fully believe you should be pushing keys totally in pugs. So they would just be doing this to give the players who BELIEVE they need to push keys in a pug, but are unhappy with it, an alternative path. Hopefully to quiet the masses on the topic.
That seems in line with how they are handling things right now, for better or or worse.
But I again agree this isn't the real best solution.
I agree that they're likely to cut it short of a "real" well done solution but I also feel like they're doing a much better job of actually thinking things through a little bit past the first stage nowadays. So even if it auto-assigns you there is going to be some sort of player control over setup at least. Even if its just to give you the choice of the spec or role and not actually to accept or deny a specific player.
I think they have a few design pillars they wont cross, and I think the idea that its harder content that requires a better team makeup is a really hard line to go back on.
Either way I want to be optimistic and give them the benefit of the doubt. After all the goodwill they've generated this expansion, I'm going to very cautiously trust in them.
@@booradley6832 that's awesome to hear that! I feel the same way. The game is improving constantly.
Idk man I really think the whole issue about mythic leavers is really not as bad as you might say. I've been running 20's all week and had 0 leavers..... is this a thing only in 25+ keys or something?
It's a problem everywhere for sure. I would encourage you to download my spreadsheet and put your keys into it and see the stats at the end of the season. You'll be surprised how many keys you didn't finish.
But ya obviously it's a far bigger issue the higher up you go.
there was a system... and maybe even two !
titan forging 🙂 / legendary drop
i completed a lot lot lot of dead keys because of the small chance to get something that can titan forge
Titanforge really was the best reason to stick around, but sadly people just don't care about gear anymore at all.
No key deplete is the only easy solution. Someone leaves the key? No worries, lets try again without that guy. No real negative impact but the time we already lose anyway.
It would solve a lot of the problems for sure, but I do not view that as their most likely solution. It would make pushing keys way way easier and they likely aren't interested in that being how it is.
@@heythereguysitsMetroKeys have infinite progression so if its too easy just push higher. But ya i dont think they would do that drastic change unfortunatelly.
@@carlas2831 I just mean the time investment. You can't push infinitely high. To upgrade a 32 right now you not only need to play perfect but practice all the things that could potentially kill you and where you can get away with saving CDs etc.
If you could just practice the 32 all day you'd be able to upgrade it far faster than you could now.
But you'd still likely be unable to do a 34 ever.
Just examples, I have no experience or insight into those numbers.
kinda like the idea of the currency at the end of the run but what about also if there is someone that leaves... for what ever reason... the points they would have got had they finished the run on time is deducted from their score there by making it a negative effect for leaving.. yes I know disconnects and power outages all happen but tough... you join the key you accept the consequences
I'm fine with punishments generally but losing score won't work. You can lose infinite score in that world, where you can only gain score from upgraded keys better than the last. Would be impossible to climb.
They would have to totally redesign the score to be something you get no matter what you upgrade. And I don't think that's healthy at all.
There is already currency at the end of the key - Crests. First thing they should try is remove the punishment for this on broken key. So you get 12 regardless of timed or not.
So many different options to choose from and all have good and bad sides and I think they would just implement a solo q over anything.
Personally I would like a utility score where you get a score for participating in affixes, cc, kicks. For example 200 score for Atal with 100 utility? Either combining the score and raising KSM/H or having separate score under the key
I think the entire m+ system would need re making in order for it to be better
Mythic plus is meant to be a team thing first and foremost so there won't ever be a utility score or anything like that. It would heavily favor selfish play. Might be something some addon would do, but never blizzard.
I recorded the black rook hold gold mine key on my alt monk tank. We went from 5 too 21 deaths in on pull. And timed it with 29 total deaths. And at one point sanguine was doing 300k+ hps
Nice happy to take a look at it if you want to send it over too!
One of the big ones a lot of ppl want is keys don't down rank unless u want to down rank them at the npc
I would like that too, but what are your thoughts on what Blizzard might do?
if the learned anything from the pvp q then they wont give us a m+ q...as far as i know its terrible. unbelievable long q times, leaving in case of losses is a common "solution" to dodge mmr loss. higher rated players having alts with lower mmr to actually be able to play. intentional deranking to actually play the game. qq about the comps you get, qq about the quality of palyers you get matched with.... its a disaster
That sounds like all stuff with how pvp works though.
If leavers got disposed, no one will not inv them to groups, they cancel subscriptions, bad business for bliz
Unsure what you are getting at here. This system would be more inclusive, not less. Its a guaranteed invite to everything you sign up to. The punishment would only come after you were invited.
Just take away the timer altogether (and maybe score too).
Players who want to compete can still do so by pushing as high and as quick as they can and holding their own competitions or uploading their runs online (like the good old days), but that doesn't need to be baked into the game.
The problem is that every single run, by default, is part of a competition. That creates a toxic environment.
Whatever solution can make the competitive aspect opt-in will work. The default should just be completing the dungeon, not participating in a competition.
Hmm well the system is competitive by nature. I don't think this is in the table. You basically just don't like mythic plus. That's fine, but I don't expect blizzard to do something like this.
Take from raiding, flex m+ minimum 2 people and max 5 people and the mobs/bosses scale to the amount of people you have
(probably a very stupid idea)
It's pretty aggressive is all. I don't think it solves anything given how keys work. It probably just makes people kick underperformers mid key.
I at least want more gold - 58g per run ?? it costs 250g for repairs .. wth ....
Ya that's a problem for sure. But not related to leavers at least.
The only issue with a system to punish leavers is i feel like they would have to make it harder to get io and make it bannable to get boosted through keys. Ive been in 26/27s with horrible players i mean absolutely boosted theres no way im sticking around keys like that lol
Well you can't get boosted in soloq and soloq would be required for any punishments so there ya go!
Is this not what the score system is supposed to do? You should lose points if you fail to complete a dungeon, straight up. That would create the match making ranking system you're talking about. Where people who repeatedly leave lose more points than the people who don't which will ultimately pull them to the correct keystones where they don't need to leave.
No, the score system is just a numerical representation of your progression.
Losing score is not something that works given how you gain it right now.
If they made score gained from every key you do no matter what, then maybe losing it would make sense.
I wasn't talking about a match making rating, I was using that as an example of what score is NOT haha
@heythereguysitsMetro they would obviously need to change how it's obtained / lost to create an actual mmr/skill rating. As you say currently it only represents your best runs at your highest key levels. Maybe they could add a new mmr rating score along side it to reflect your actual skill level against the population. Then when noobs like me come in and wipe every boss, people don't need to think too hard about why I'm making so many mistakes despite being boosted to a high mythic rating.
Solo Queue m+ would have more leavers not less
It would be a system where you would get punished by leaving though. It might have more people that are inclined to leave, but you'd be able to put walls up for them to not do it, and you'd hope that would be enough to stop it.
Queue times will be very long i suspect. What if you start queueing and have time for 3 runs. All three runs are AD +17. You want to push your rating, but the placement algorithm detects that youre only 1700 cuz you still only have a +2 WCM on Fort. 'Then just use your own key' might be hard as well, cuz everyone is cramming their key hoping it gets chosen to be a full group, and when everyone is queing as the leader, no one gets the party.
Unless... 5 people queue as '+17AD' but i see this as unlikely, and people will be furious if the game auto matches them, a 475 tank with 4 others in veteran gear. Idk, i want this to work but the variables are out of this world
Queues are already very long, and some people don't feel like they have any way to solve that. I try to tell people to do their own key now, but some just won't.
I constantly hear about players playing for multiple hours without an invite to a group.
Whatever the flaws of soloq that obviously goes away instantly. You will always get an invite.
@@heythereguysitsMetro True true, I'm definitely down for this 100% solely because I want people to play what they WANT to play rather than feeling pressured to play whatever class is averaging 1% dps higher for the current patch cycle
They could easily add a system that exists in smite, where at the end of each key people can give you a bad friendliness score. You would start out with 100% friendly rating and it would get reduced each time someone has a problem with you. Then you would see peoples friendliness score along with their M+ score. So if you saw someone with a 3.3k rating but a 40% friendliness score, you might want to think about passing on that invite.
But people will abuse it. They will just vote it on someone who think they are garbage
They could but that would certainly require soloq otherwise people would just vote for their friends and frequent collaborators.
@@heythereguysitsMetro You could put a limit of 1 vote towards a single account in 24 hours.
Should be an more objective info, thats way too subjective. Like the % of completition, leaves and stuff like that
@@leovcarv The information and response is subjective. You would rather a system in which people are just straight up barred entirely?
Sure; if Blizzard created a type of solo queue Mythic+, with the current Mythic+ system STILL in place for those who prefer it, Blizzard could make up new rules for the new system. Rewards, punishments, keyless runs etc... Again, if Blizzard still kept the current Mythic+ system in place, players could choose the method of gameplay they prefer. Follower Dungeons are now a new option to play Normal Dungeons. Follower Dungeons do not replace the current Dungeon system, they are just an additional option for players.
Right if it wasn't obvious, this would work the same way as pvp. Nothing lost. But it would dilute the player base, splitting them into the two systems.
Solo shuffle was a great addition to the game and it shines most at the start of each season. Right now the issue with solo shuffle is the 1hr+ Qs and not enough healers, mostly due to the amount of CC, interrupts, and toxicity. Really ends up coming down to a gameplay issue. If you leave mid fight you don't get rating and waste everyone's time including your own, so there's incentive to stay.
M+ has a more complex problem, but I would really like to see a penalty system for leaving because there are no reproductions currently and I still think it's completely pointless why keys break only to start over again, its almost like it was intentional to keep players on mindless cycle and it feels really s***y when you work up to a +16 and someone drops out on the first pack. It's extremely annoying and frustrating and prob the biggest issue with M+.
If there was a solo Q option for M+ (like solo shuffle) I think a lot of the current issues would still stand. But changes to keys breaking would be a good start and bring more players into the mode so we don't have 2hrs to wait around for a tank or healer.
The game has some design flaws and if they were addressed, a lot more people would be doing the content. Myself being one of them, this xpac I'm a Rsham/off Rdruid main, since 10.2 ive been fishing, mount collecting, and druid form farming. Its less stressful and I'm not being told by a 15 yr old to go off myself.
Ya well a soloQ would have to exist for there to be punishments or other system-based walls.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I wouldn't be opposed to having soloQ, I don't do M+ enough to have a strong input whether it's a good addition, but if it means less toxicity and more successful runs I'll be on board. It was an eye opener exposing the fact the raiderIO website doesn't show if someone left their keys. Last season I got denied several times for a 15-17 Halls because I had failed time on 13 halls, even though majority of my other runs were 15+ for the season.
The most likely solution is no solution because its not a crime to leave a key, you having and extremist opinion on it wont change that
It’s not a crime but you can’t deny that is very… very… very fracking annoying 🫤
Blizzard has already said they will be addressing leavers.
Funny how you say it's an extremist opinion when every video and stream is filled with people demanding punishment lol.
If there was a solo queue, I personally, just wouldnt use it. I would just build my own group. That being said, for lower level keys or the social anx of finding a group or whatever, seems fine for other people. I also dont think keys should ever deplete. (unless you manually do it). if you fail a key, it should stay the same level. The currency idea would be to be pretty generous (and there for possibly abusable) for people to want to spend the extra time in a "bad key" to get this currency. Example, typical key is, lets say for arguments sake, 30mins and this horrible group that doesnt know anything is on track to complete this in an hour, is that worth my time for this currency? Perhaps once the timer has failed I can leave without penalty? (that is prob also abusable)
I dunno, its tough for sure.
I don't think it's tough at all. You just need to shift the incentives to finishing keys. If you don't want to stay for an hour well that's up to you.
But you would have potentially spent 30 minutes and gotten nothing out of it, where under my system, if you stayed through completion you'd have something worth having.
No punishment would be present here. It would just be flipping the incentive away from only upgrading keys towards finishing every key you do
How about a key starts with 5 players. If someone leaves then why not scale the dungeon down to to the number of players and down to minimum of say 3. Kind of like what happens in raids. Then the remaining players can finish the key.
I would love this idea because it would mean I could solo dungeons. And that is unlikely to ever be something blizzard wants done.
Either way you run into the problem of people kicking each other to potentially make the key easier.
@@heythereguysitsMetro That's why I mentioned a minimum number of players. However, if say the tank or healer leave then you are done. It doesn't get easier. It is scaled to the number of people left. The difficulty is still there just not at 5 player level. They do it in raids already.
When we're talking about a system like that and the keystone not depleting, why not just get rid of keystones here at all? We could just queue for a 24 and get into a 24. Or maybe just a slight progression system in that you can only queue for a dungeon one or two levels above your highest timed key. Then again, people will get even more furious if something goes wrong. I personally and ... well all people I know from WoW actually hate solo queue with a burning passion and if ever only did it for achievs. But that might have something to do with pvp in retail being ... in short ... terrible. And this comes from someone who back in wotlk/cata exclusively did pvp. I did nothing else. But the current state of pvp in retail is quite sad.
ya no doubt, pvp is awful.
Okay so first let me give you what I see as the positive of a solo queue system. It would basically eliminate all the non-viable groups I find myself in, and right now this happens a lot where the person forming the group is either so new they have no clue what they are doing or they're in such a hurry they pick the first four people who apply. At least with a solo queue you would be guaranteed to have a battle rez a bloodlust and at least one DPS who can handle the affixes. Groups would probably go smoother if I didn't have to worry about missing utility.
That being said I tend to agree with you that the greater long term gain would come from using your idea and changing the culture of keys with a currency system. Throw a few seasonal exclusive mounts in there that could be bought with the currency for people like us who only really pug and never run their own keys and I guarantee all these snowflakes who consider themselves gods of m+ and too good to continue after a single mistake will be chomping at the bit to finish keys. And who knows changing the mindset and improving the culture of m+ might just have a trickle down effect to the culture in the rest of the game and improve the community as a whole. Hey a guy can dream can't he? Lol
Ya man, I think changing the culture is of paramount importance.
I hadn't considered buying stuff with the currency too. I think that could work!
A lot of people ask for that too.
Two Birds, one Keystone, sorta thing
The major issue boiled down is that mythic+ isn't fun, affixes some weeks are either completely trivial or unplayable and from my own experience MOST players don't engage in what shouldn't be considered advanced mechanics (interrupts, positioning)
There is a pretty bad culture with it all too, some leavers might do so out of pure anxiety, many most likely rage
Wow needs to make some fundamental changes, it might be too big to do before the expansion after next
Lost me at "Mythic+ isn't fun."
That's a really silly thing to say man.
The content is outstanding. The best in WoW. Its just the culture that holds it back, and that is what we are discussing fixes for.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I agree that there is a sucky culture, but I don't think its only to do with the players
I'm more for rewarding key completion over penalizing leavers or some solo queue system. Just look at games with a solo queue system that penalizes leavers, let's say League of Legends. People still leave and sabotage those games with those penalizing systems in place. It would not help.
It certainly helps. Its just not perfect. Sadly you see it requested the most, and there is already precedent for it.
Blizzard is in the business of listening, so better start speaking louder than all the people screaming about punishments haha
For the record, I agree that the best way is rewarding completion.
m0 needs to go into the dungeon finder, so people can somewhat learn the dungeons before getting into a 10+ key and say they've never done a dungeon, 10+ is not the time to learn
You learn in every key you do. And frankly your example of 10 is awful. Keys are far too easy for you to expect everyone to know every single thing in low keys.
Failure is part of the game though. Don't freak out about it.
you are right, it was just an example, the point being made was the phrase " i've never done this one before" comes out a lot lately in my experience, how can you justify running a medium to high key without knowing ANY of the mechanics at all? many times this becomes a party breaker because the person can't perform reasonably to complete the dungeon
@@heythereguysitsMetro
@@patrickzaluski6229 I don't believe you that this happens regularly in any hard key. I think you are talking about very low keys where it's expected and should not stop you from succeeding.
The reason it happens at all though is because the low keys are too easy and don't reach you the mechanics. We have a video coming Monday with a player who actually doesn't know the mechanics on rezan in a 19, but he has a 19 upgrades. That tells you everything you need to know about the situation.
The mistakes just don't matter as much this season.
@@heythereguysitsMetro im sure its a low percentage. Though it seems to happen to me a few times a week. Happens most when farming wyrm crests. So 11-15. Should know the dungeon by then imho
@@patrickzaluski6229 that's just something you'll have to get past on your own. To do an eleven for example, you'd only have to triple upgrade a 2, a 5, and an 8. So you'd be doing only your fourth key total and still have an 11.
Anything under 20 you should expect there to be a lot of mistakes but they shouldn't stop you from succeeding.
Either way if they aren't learning on 11s they obviously wouldn't learn anything in a 0
My opinion is like many other people have said, is for one just dont make the key drop down if it fails and let them retry it. But how you said about the solo shuffle implementation of it i could see problems with that. Reason i say is if you have no battle rez, or lust/hero buff i know people look for that strictly, just might mess with a key or classes that cant do that probably wont benefit. And another thing with it is depending on weeks like this one and last where you need cc or cleanse. If you get grouped up with a group where they arent talened into anything to deal with afflicted or incorps you know its gonna be a rough time. I already had a handful of people that i ran with where i had to tell them to switch to it and sometimes they didnt listen at all. While i was running low keys it was still annoying to deal with.
They would have to change the affixes for sure. But the other utility I don't think would be as much of an issue. How is it handled in pvp?
@heythereguysitsMetro I'm not too sure cause I haven't done pvp too much, but I'm pretty they have brez disabled in pvp. I'd assume it's the same for lust, any cc Is usable. Again I'm not 100% on that so someone else might be able to give a better answer
@@mikesgamer12 ah ya good point. So the key utility just doesn't work in there. Maybe they do that for soloq mythic plus too then idk
Well, then, the argument you are presenting has to do with raider IO not necessarily Blizzard.
How so?
Yeah too many questions on enforcement and technical difficulties behind solo queue, plus I would never want to queue into it without heavy overhauls to affixes as you stated. I am excited to see what the 11.0 solo delves bring. Maybe like a Diablo style solo leaderboard would be a good way to push without the unnecessary stress of leavers
What technical difficulties would you say would exist?
@@heythereguysitsMetro just to name a few that pop into mind with matchmaking for challenging content that could be a nightmare to code:
- does it wait for a lust class and if yes, for how long
- if there are no tanks/healers in queue does it ask you if you want a lower key bracket instead of waiting an hour
- how are brackets determined? score, prev keys completed, etc
- how would penalties work? reduction of score or tracking what they clearly don’t want to track which is quantity of keys left
It’s a complicated problem to solve introducing a solo queue, tanks and healers would probably instant pop but dps depending on how complicated the algorithm is could wait and hour maybe two which isn’t and improvement for a 25. They would still need the group finder to remain
@@heythereguysitsMetro I think your currency idea is good but then how do they prevent it from turning into valor again and people farming low keys to farm currency as well. Wow players if they are anything at all, they are creative and find any possible loophole they can lol
Horrible idea. Solo q, is it working? Hell no it’s not working, go watch literally any pvp video put out this expansion. Solo shuffle q times are 45 minutes plus….it’s border line unplayable. Screw that. If you want punishment, you create a report system like in League of legends
The report system requires a soloq like experience.
I think you are just fixated on the flaws of pvp in your comparison though. Need to be a bit more open minded here.
And frankly players report longer than 45 minutes of waiting for invites now.
@@heythereguysitsMetro no it doesn’t. That’s ridiculous. We already have the ability to report players. All they would need to do is add an option to report for abandoning instance group, and then set some kind of threshold and make that number known to the players….that if you cross this amount, you get punished.
M+ is currently the most popular part of the game….you are suggesting we take one of the worst systems in the game (solo-q matchmaking) and incorporate that into m+. It’s literally the worst idea I’ve heard this expansion
Lets just shout this out very loud. After completion of a M+ group, you gain a "save" currency. If someone leaves, the key holder can choose to "use" a save to keep the key at the same M+ level. Or do the D3 system as I have said many times before.
That's basically just a portion of my idea. Completion gives currency, you use currency to improve your key somehow. I am in favor of that the most for sure, although I do think they will end up doing the soloq because its already got a precedent.
But wouldn’t people just spam low keys to get the currency and then still leave the higher keys?
@@beebeemw for my system the currency would scale per level for both obtaining and spending. So two currency from a 2 and to augment a 2 it would also cost two etc.
I don't agree with the assertion that anything that has some form of negative for leaving with necessitate a 'solo queue', yes groups currently aren't set up in such a way that punishments would be able to be done in general, however the act of starting a "Mythic+" dungeon essentially puts it in its own 'instance' and that could be set up to facilitate a strike or debuff. At the very least you could report leavers without a 'vote disband' (if they implemented a function, FFXIV has a function for instances like this even if you're grouped).
Personally a solo queue would kill it for me because otherwise what's the point? Solo queues are partially responsible for the toxicity we have now. I agree that a "positive reinforcement" approach is the best one.
Just basing it off every other system like this. Currently, all systems with rules for ending groups have rules for forming groups.
Don't forget, when you form a Mythic+ group, you can go with anywhere from 1-5 players alongside any composition.
You believe they would invest resources into a system that would allow you to punish leavers if there wasn't even 5 players in the group when the key started?
@@heythereguysitsMetro The point i'm getting at is that the act of putting the key in the keystone starts a 'challenge mode' which is separate to the regular rules of groups (you see this because you can't change specs, you can't open certain items or have certain buffs), so I think they could add another system in place without it being against the regular rules of parties.
And personally, it would be less effort to rejig that system than to put in a solo queue imo. Also, it doesn't matter how many people are in the key when it's started or what the composition is, that would make it even easier to implement a system if it was agnostic of those facts.
Not saying anything other than I think it would be programmatically possible within the current system as I understand it, not that I support such a system.
@@Bunstonious But doing that would impact pugging and pushing alike, where as a SoloQ would be entirely separate.
yes, its possible they change the rules of their own systems 20 years in, but honestly, do you really believe they would?
I'm positive on the company, more than most, but I don't see them putting a ton of thought and man hours into something so niche as fixing leavers in Mythic+ pugging, when they can basically just copy a system they already have working elsewhere.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Maybe. It's considered a 'main' system now so maybe they might surprise you. Who knows, all i'm saying is that it's possible.
I think a positive reinforcement system is the best option.
@@Bunstonious I don't think it's the best option either. Just that it's the most likely given everything we know about both pvp soloqueue and the nature of the discussion around punishment.
I would much rather they go with my currency system instead.
Hey Metro 😅 on a positive note all of those leavers are good content for me although it’s frustrating for you. The best laughs I had watching your streams were from those lunatics and the rants before leaving the key. Like that warlock in SL 😅 3 keys you did and he was just ranting in chat instead of DPS 😂😂 one of them was Iron Dock or something.
Having said that I agree with a currency to upgrade their own keys. That was also my idea 😊 and probably many others.
Ya it's become the main content that is on the channel honestly. I'm scared to lose it, but I'd give it all up tomorrow if it meant this problem would go away.
I think you abandon the key system and let anyone set the dungeon difficulty up to the highest level they’ve completed that dungeon. Random dungeons and the punishment of depletion arbitrarily extends play time. People without the ilvl to get into any key but may possess the skill to handle it are force to run their own key, many times in a dungeon they can’t use any of the loot from. This is a major time waste
I just can't imagine Blizzard sees it that way. That's a very extreme solution.
@@heythereguysitsMetro for tackling a single issue, leavers, yes this would be considered drastic. But if we are talking about the player unfriendliness of the entirety of mythic plus I think it’s the route they should go. I haven’t heard them justify not having a system with more choice and less consequences. At least it’s been so long I’ve forgotten their response.
@@matthewliberda5490 I mean they don't have to justify it. Mythic+ is what it is, and I don't see that changing.
The flaws you see are a different topic totally though. Sticking to talking about leavers here, as I don't see those flaws myself.
Broader flaws in m+ are sort of lumped into the discussion. Once the player base gets upset about something blizzard doesn’t have many options.
1: do nothing and people complain/move onto other things
2: make a change to the game
3: make a statement justifying why the system is the way it is
In the past, regarding key randomness, they’ve opted for 3 and we don’t have to get into the details further.
Fair enough, I think you’re right, they aren’t likely to make major changes to the system and my suggestion isn’t without flaws either. A solo queue system to me would be a major change on the scale of the overhaul I mentioned.
If you aren’t running keys that push you and your group to the limit of their abilities, you tend to not deal with leavers as much. I don’t know that that is the way most people approach the game or interact with m+. I just rarely get leavers, maybe I’m just the exclusion regarding this, and I tend to not blame the person unless the leave is egregious, which is even rarer.
with the way meta works for mythic plus solo q would lead to even more frustration to players. classes are not exactly balanced some classes are stronger than others and classes/group combimation do matter above a range of keys.
Is that different from how it works in pvp?
from my experience, if people want to leave.. so do i.
What does that have to do with this video?
Since there are no panishment for leavers, nothing will change, shod be like 1h you can't join any mythic dungeon group for leaving it and downgrade on mythic score bye 100 points, that wod be game changer. I wod like better get smart AI/bot with one turns you're personal char in to companion, you cod do that for 9 characters, I wod pay extra money per month with sub, so I could avoid so many toxic stuff and gear them on my paste. Thats a reason why I started to play on one private server where I can do that, I can gear up my team an do stuff on my paste. If blizz got this option, I wod do that what I typed down. I think lot of ppl would pay extra money with sub for smart AI/character companion.
We are talking about why systems they can make to create those punishments. Was that not obvious in the video?
For a solo queue to work, you need to be able to lose rating. Sorry, it just has to happen. Yep, people will flame each other, but you can just block and move on. Just like in pvp, if you lose, your rating goes down. If you leave, your rating goes down a lot. Yes, there will be greifers, but blizz can use the same 'afk detection' system they have in pvp that will boot someone and prevent them from queueing for 30 mins. There' negatives to this, obviously, but the system we have now means people just get to play FOTM classes and have a much higher chance of being invited. Then it's a coin flip. You win, or you lose, but there's nothing keeping people in a bracket where they belong before learning mechanics. You could, as a havoc demon hunter, have a 10% 'win rate' and still get to like 2800 because people were able to carry you in 50/500 dungeons ran for the season. Losing rating is the only way to stop leavers from being stuck in ELO hell and encourage ppl to learn mechaics ans utalize CDs before jumping into 20+
Totally disagree with that statement and am not sure why you think anything needs to change with score.
I think you are stuck thinking pvp does it and it's working there but what you aren't considering is that you lose score in pvp based on your opponents.
Losing score in pve would be based on what exactly?
Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and would require you to totally redefine what the score is because right now you only get score from each key higher than the last.
So if you lost score for leaving a key, how would you gain score back to compensate for it when things are actually difficult?
@@heythereguysitsMetro If someone is so titled in a +17 that they need to leave, then I believe they aren't ready for that key. If they can happily, and comfortably blow through a 13, then... maybe that's where they belong. I feel that leavers leave because they don't understand nuances of their situation and environment. When they learn those things, they're more likely to execute a key properly, without tilting, so they belong there. If you were say 2100 and leave, losing 50 rating, you'd just have to re-complete the key level equivalent to reclimb and hopefully learn something along the way
@@heythereguysitsMetro I just think the current coin toss system is a little too easy for people to 'accidently' climb. People that don't belong in say a 22 might find themselves there saying 'this healer sucks! They can't even top of my health on a tyrannical nettles! I'm leaving!' If they actually had 3 runs like that, with 3 different healers, it might finally click that 'oh. Maybe I'm the problem and need to use a defensive during this mechanic'
@@FightingBlIrish that makes more sense. So it would just remove the score from the key you were in if you already had it timed. But if you didn't you wouldn't lose anything?
Either way not a fan. I think you are overthinking this all.
Score is fine, albeit incomplete. But score is not an MMR. It's just a numerical representation of your progression.
You should never lose progression in pve imo.
@@FightingBlIrish ya but that's got nothing to do with solo queue. That's how it works in pug keys now too. I constantly play with players who seem to have no real idea what mistakes are being made and are just generally clueless.
Had a paladin on stream this week telling me to pull the boss while a DPS was running back from a death, telling me to tank mobs in small hallways instead of pull them out for sanguine etc.
It's just very easy to be carried as a DPS especially if you play a class that has an easier time surviving mistakes.
everything you leave a key lose rating then maybe you will think twice about it? I hate when people leave especially before first boss all because they stood and a mechanic and they could have avoided it 😂😂
No way to lose rating as you can only gain rating from keys higher than the last.
Would be impossible to push even with one or two bits of score lost.
Follower dungeons for m+.
Missing done.
Very good possibility
Regardless any currency you create becomes less valuable the longer the season goes on so you just end up in the same place you are now. I don’t believe the M+ leaver problem is fixable without hurting a majority other players game experience that don’t partake in high key pushing. Creating a LFM+ queue will help the people doing 2-20 keys sure. But I promise you players will find a way to get the group/comp they want once they feel it’s necessary to push higher or they will just quit. There is no incentive you could add that will prevent people from just leaving a key once they personally feel it’s over.
I think you just haven't understood the system I am proposing with the currency. If anything the value would go up as the season goes on and you are in keys that are higher and higher.
The goal is to make finishing keys more valuable than just upgrading them.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I just can't imagine a currency implemented that could possibly hold an infinite value. That currency would need to be redeemed at some point and for what? Only thing I could think of is being convertible blizzard bucks as to say for game time or shop purchases. Otherwise any incentive in-game wise be it cosmetic or player power would have it's peak per season.
@@bytez3322 I honestly talk about it so much I can't even remember if I talked about it in depth in this video.
Tldr the currency would be from any completed key and would be redeemed to improve your own keystone in some way.
My outline is low amount of currency to reroll your key (so you can reroll a lot and get the key you want.)
Medium amount to protect the key. (so you reroll until you get the right key then stock up on protections so you have the best chance to upgrade it)
Or a high amount of currency to upgrade the key one level. No score given obviously but if your key does fall too low or you just think you should be doing higher keys you can redeem it that way.
It encourages you to run lots of keys that aren't yours and finish them all. Any unfinished key would be progression lost.
And obviously the later the season goes the more valuable this all gets because you start doing harder keys and of course the population thins out so it's harder to be sure you are going to be successful.
@@heythereguysitsMetro While I understand how this system would help lessen the blow from getting screwed over by a leaver while pushing your own key. I don't see how this would prevent someone from leaving a key that's not their own. Otherwise you're promoting a currency that has no value if someone never intends to push their own key. As I would argue that 90% of leavers aren't pushing their own key.
I think if they add some sort of honor system where you could report someone as a leaver. Only if the key was unsuccessful and after one or two keys you get slapped with a leaver tag for the rest of the week. Repeat offenders getting disciplinary action in some way.
@@bytez3322 they would be pushing their own key now. I think you just aren't thinking about it fully.
These guys leave because they value score as the only thing that keeps them going.
My outlined system makes it more important to finish any key you do to make sure your progression is maximized.