Ferrari engine is overheating.. - Ferrari engined Alfa 105 Alfarrari build part 207
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Jeff electric water pumps are lacking any form of head pressure which is what you need for an engine with small coolant passages . We found the best weay to overcome that problem is to modify the engines pump to flow 10 liters per minute at 500rpm. The pump should also create a head pressure of at least 50 foot. Anything less is not going to stop the nucleating of the coolant around the back of the exhaust valve seat. Big radiators are just a band aid for an engine that has poor water pump performance. I proved this many years ago at Dandenong TAFE on the schools dyno with a room full of auto mechanics teachers looking in disbelief at a falcon with a 351 cleveland which had a 2 core radiator out of an LH Torana. I had no overheating problems because I had a proper water pump. It is the most important component on an ICE water cooled.
Interesting
So could Jeff could essentially return the water via a Header Tank and keep the Electric Water Pump? When you say the pump needs to create a 50 foot header what do you mean?
You’re r right about flow rate, it’s nothing to do with head though (at least as long as the head can generate sufficient flow rate). Pressure in cooling systems is generated by heat, not the pump.
I was going to mention this. In my engine running an electric water pump I have a plate where the thermostat was, with a hole in it so the water flows about 50% of the size of the thermostat size. This restriction is critical in keeping it under pressure, which helps the cooling.
@@jiminycricket9877Agreed!
A restrictor would help slow flow and increase dwell time for the coolant to pick up heat and carry it out of the engine.
It's surprising how small a radiator is usually needed, but of course you want some headspace in your cooling system calculations.
You had a very good tech inspector as all these snags are to the benefit of the use of the car. The '10mm clear' rule is applied in new car builds too for moving parts. After all this you will have supreme confidence in driving the wheels off this great car. Engine out is irritating, but will soon be forgotten after your first road trip! Graham, from a warm England.
During sleep the brain sorts out the activity of the day. It's understandable we come up with our best ideas in the morning.
I built a turbocharged 300hp GTV. We had no cooling issues . I used a 4 core radiator. However I completly sealed the front of the car so air could only flow through the radiator and intercooler. I had a separate intake for the engine air intake and built air ducts over the front tire for the oil cooler. Air could not get through the car unless inwanted it to. This helped suck air through the various coolers as needed. I also made two exit vents behind the front tire fender wells feeding into the low pressure area behind the tires. This car was used as a daily driver in horrible traffic of Seattle Washington and raced at rarious tracks around the west coast. It set many track recordes and never had a single overheating issue.
Maybe it's as simple as an air pocket inside the system causing the overheating..... check the simple things first 👌
For the exhaust, you could eliminate the X pipe. It’s of no benefit with a flat plane crank and that might improve the sound quality
Hey that’s not bad!👌Honestly, like you said, when it comes to safety, why take the chance. Sounds like you found a good engineer there, glad he was able to help advise in the areas that needed attention, and that you’ve already made good progress on the remedies! 👍
So glad your inspector sounds like a reasonable guy. Doesn’t seem anything he asked was unreasonable, especially when it comes to safety, not only yours but other people on the road. Great job, getting sooooo close.
Solution to the cooling issue - send the Alfarrari to live with me in Scotland. Happy to help!
I have seen in one race car that by redusing flow on water pump cooling got more efficient. If water is going too fast through radiator, it doesn’t have enough time to cool. Measure radiator in and out temps.
Was wondering about how loud it is, 101 dB is very loud indeed!
So with the addition of two more mufflers you should get there.
Also those tight clearance issues are a good thing in the end.
Lots of optimizing, well done Jeff!
Cheers 👍💪✌
Thanks for sharing Jeff. Always chasing heat issues with my hot rod builds. You’ll get it sorted out.
-Spanky
Make those extra mufflers bolt in. 😊
We took a bicycle innertube and put it on the fan shroud (just the circular lip of the fan) with some pop rivets so it literally touched the radiator this made a huge. Difference in the amount of air we pulled through. maybe if you have a shroud you want To Do this at the shroud and seal every where else. Regardless sealing the air gaps is important.
Is the coolant circulating too quickly through the radiator. Not in the radiator long enough to cool. Take the thermostat out of a Mini and it will boil. Competition Mini's had a restictor plate to slow the water down. There are other motors that suffer the same fate if you delete the thermostat. Just a thought!
Jeff. Get rid of the adjuster. Just put a bolt in to the alternator from the back with flat and lock washers. Adjust the alternator by hand then tighten the bolt.
Many cars do it this way.
You may be struggling to cool the engine because there is air at high points in the engine water jackets. You may need bleeders or steam ports.
ON your MOT and engineer- sounds like you have got one that some of my OZ based "Locost 7" builders have used. Many are reasonably helpful if you show a reasonable attitude, as you have done. Most of the L7 crowd down there seem to see them a specific challenge and feel the "get extra points" for staying ahead of them, more like a friendly competition. And whether in the UK or AU, it is about safety- yours and other drivers; but your YT crowd might frown on getting the sharp looking brunette you hang with all scuffed up, too! Cheers, Mrs. J!
The easy fix for the noise is to stuff 1-2 stainless steel scouring pads in each of the rear silencers and keep them from being spit out. I've "heard" that works well. The legal limit here in Sweden for home builds is only 84 dB which is very though and often requires extensive exhaust mods to meet.
Engineering issues mostly resolved, nice work. On the cooling front I mentioned to you months ago in the comments that the 360 and F430 Ferrari's have really big cooling needs and they obviously run two radiators, as others have said the only solution I can see with the little space that you have is the highest CFM fans possible for that space and have them kick in at a low temp, god speed.
That alternator bracket makes me feel better,it looks like something i would build. There's hope for me yet. Looking good mate.
Instead of spring washers I would use nordlock washers. There is a reason this is what we use to secure equipment at height on oilrigs. They do not come loose. As far as bolt length, 3 full visible threads is our standard.
Perhaps your engine bay needs some hot air escape vents from the upper/hottest area. Maybe a tasty set of louvers on either side of the lexan portal would allow most of the heat (headers) to take it's natural rising pathway out of the snug compartment. You could fabricate some vent panels that rivet into a pair of neat holes cut in the bonnet. You could paint them to match before-hand and probably get away woth only touching up the yellow on the edges of the cut-out, if you do a very clean job of cutting.
make sure the rubber flaps are mounted with the "bowl" towards the shroud. usually, these rubber flaps are manufactured in a way that they end up concave (or convex, depending on where you're looking from). it does make a real difference in terms of their sealing ability
Have Mrs. Jeff help pull out the motor. Will be very interesting.
Mostly good news Jeff, and given all you've done, it's a pretty small list of fixes!
A few people are commenting about vents/gaps at the rear of the bonnet - just keep in mind that this is usually a high pressure area and exit vents in that area may not work (eg the A9X Torana, and I think a Commodore, have a rear-facing induction intake at the back of the bonnet). It's common to see exit vents in the front half of the bonnet.
Hopefully someone with more aero knowledge than me will be able to help.
Correct, this is why air vents are often located here, to get high pressure air at the base of the windscreen for cabin fresh air. Wheel wells are a negative air pressure area if you needed to vent anywhere. That said a lifted bonnet could bleed hot air out while stationary, the fan should be able to do this as well though.
SPRING WASHERS ON BRAKE CALIPERS!!!!!! NO!! Are you sure he didn’t mean cone /Belleville washers? I’d use Loctite or Nordlock washers (or nothing!). It’s not 1930.
Cooling. If it’s ok under power then it can’t be a fundamental issue. Was the bonnet open on the dyno? Looks plenty of air inlet area, could it be a lack of outlet? Does it overheat with the bonnet open? Also, you might be onto something with air bypassing the rad via the rubber flaps, worth blocking them shut and seeing if it helps. I’d be surprised but you never know.
I've just posted about this stupidity.*
You'll never see a spring washer on an aircraft or in aerospace. 💡
I commented the exact same thing, I’ve been in a dealership’s part department for 17 yrs and have never seen any kind of locking washer on a caliper bolt on any brand car.
Be careful when grinding next to an alternator because the magnetic imside could pick up the filings potentially decreasing the life of the alternator.
Wear bearings, damage insulation coatings, etc.
My thoughts on your cooling, if you have any air gaps between the radiator and the shroud it will cause the rubber flaps to not pull closed. You may need to mount some rubber or high temp foam between the two to seal. Also the flaps should be a thicker material that sits perfectly closed by itself with nothing going on. Anything too flexible/thing with not work right and tend to over time and heat bend out and stay open which will lead to fan pulling air from the flap entrance rather than all through the rad core.
To this point I'm remembering now. We took a bicycle innertube and put it on the fan shroud with some pop rivets so it literally touched the radiator this made a huge. Difference in the amount of air. We pulled through maybe if you have a shroud you want To Do this at the shroud and seal everything else.
Regardless sealing the air gaps is important.
a oui les adaptations sont parfois compliqué... bon courage pour le démontage et remontage du moteur...😅
About opening the plexiglass over the engine with louvers. Hood vents are very useful to cool they are helping to pull air across the radiator. Good luck & Keep up the good work mate! From California 🇺🇸Godspeed.
It stinks when it happens, but i absolutely loved seeing your real-time revelation about the alternator bracket.
The engineer seemed to provide some really useful points, though after this much work i am sure it could be frustrating, good job having a good attitude about it, a bad attitude would change nothing but your mood.
Your first idea for the alternator would work. All that is needed is a second nut threaded onto the
bolt to capture the mounting flange.
I’m sure you’ll get everything sorted, Jeff! Losing the brake caliper bolts is a pain (ask me how I know😅) I cross drilled the heads of the bolts and secured them with wire. It’s commonly used in aviation and looks cool as well…
Jeff, the bracket will work as planned, you just need a second bolt so you have one either side of the support piece.
I reckon you could easily enough make the alternator adjustment the way you want, cut the threads off the adjuster bolt on the lathe making a step on the end and create a hole for this step to push against.
In the UK we use thread lock on calliper bolts, not spring washers. You can get really small alternators off some Diahatsu kei cars, with decent outputs, if the extra space helps on conversions - looks like you’re OK now. Doesn’t seem to be anything too bad to sort out
To help cooling ,,remove the bash plate so that air can flow in around the sump and add a vent in each rear corner of the bonnet.
Or simple cut holes in the plate for airflow AND protection
It's a dry sump.....
@@1one3_Racing Oh ok ,,but it would still allow air to flow up and around the headers , taking heat away from the engine when idling if there are vents in the bonnet as well.
Kudos Jeff for showing the fuckups like the alternator mount. Be easier to show only when you get it right!
G'day Jeff,
Interesting video. You have made me aware of a couple of issues i should address on my build.
I'm looking forward to seeing how your engine comes out. Hopefully, all your planning pays off. I believe it will.
So, thanks for sharing ✌️ Peace from Melbourne/Pakenham. 3810.
Grab a early 2000s Subaru A/C belt tensioner, it’s a push type tensioner bolt setup, easy enough to weld onto the bracket you already have.
Hi Jeff just an idea
was the bonnet up when you where on the dyno?
the problem might be getting the air out of the engine bay
see if it overheats with the bonnet up
Hi Jeff. Great work on your Alfarrari. Reminds me on my trials and tribulations working on my '82 GTV6, when I fitted an Alfa V6 from an Alfa 166 and modified the tunnel to fit a front mounted gearbox, leaving the De Dion rear with an Alfa 6 diff, larger brakes all for the purpose of turbocharging, 25 years ago, I still have the car. Getting back to your project; I think an Alfetta GTV would've worked better with the engine bay configured for a v shaped engine, and a longer wheelbase, the junior with its shorter wheelbase will be very tail happy. On the issue of the overheating; hopefully, It could just be an airlock, but I'm thinking that the oil cooler may have to be relocated to the side of the radiator, not where it is now, in front. This experience comes from a mate of mine who worked for Alpine Developments. They specialised in turbocharging 116 series Giuliettas 40 years ago. They also had overheating problems, they tried expansion bottles, bigger radiators, bigger fans, nothing worked until My mate Robin thought : Let's relocate the oil cooler away from the front of the radiator to the side. Problem was solved. Just a standard sized radiator was needed on subsequent cars.
good to see You working through it Mate, and Yeah waking up on the think train at night lol, good times..
Just dent the header. Surprisingly it almost never affects flow.
I have seen that on engine masters. Issue is the header is too thick and would probably end up breaking off at the block or something else.
You’re gonna have to cut a cutout, flip the cutout over, and weld it back in.
@@HomeBuiltByJeff you could heat it cherry first then push it with a pry bar or whatever to make the dint
Hey up mate thanks for talking about the engineering as most don't, your car over mrs jeffs shoulder in fun facts looked so good I've not it from that angle before, menacing and beautiful
Jeff, take the cooling shroud off and test it. I have a Jensen Interceptor with a similar shroud, we removed it and the car ran cooler......it also had exit vents in the bonnet, something you may consider either side of the bonnet window
Hi Jeff
Sounds like you got a good engineer and got off lightly
The best advice i got when starting my project was to talk to and engineer before you even start a project and also consult with him as the project progresses with photos and emails along the way. this made the final engineering easy
also wait to do any painting and body work until the car is engineered because there is always something you need to change of redesign and you will not have to cut into fresh paint.
I also had problems keeping the noise down and finding places to install an extra muffler.
Look at the flowmaster hush power hp2 mufflers as they are very slim and not restrictive
He was working with an engineer on this. But the guy he was working with retired
that makes it tough
funny enough i had the same problem as it sometimes takes many years to complete these projects
@@1one3_Racing It's understood the retirement of the 'original' engineer was very unfortunate. However, it would have been very wise to engage a replacement engineer, once notified that the original engineer would not be able to do the work - as opposed to waiting till project car was nearing completion.
Jeff i had a similar problem fg turbo engine in a e90 bmw i got rid of my twin fans and put a 16 inch spal fan and fixed the issue otherwise put a factory fan that can be run by the ecu so you get variable speed the ba or fg falcon fan and shroud has plenty of balls if your radiator is wide enough the problem with 10 or 12 inch dual fans is they cause vortecies between the rad and fan shroud so you don't get good lamina flo so you need something with 1 big single opening to draw the air through the whole of the radiator not just on 2 spots of the radiator in an ideal world a thermo fan from a 2016 comaro would be the best option but we live in oz so you may need to start measuring lots of fans till you find the right size cheers glenn
How is your advance at idle? I think we had to put more advanced at idle to bring the temperature down. It's surprising and opposite of what you might think but when an engine is moving slower, the piston takes longer to reach the top so more advance isn’t as bad as at higher rpm. I'm sure this can be researched relatively easily.
With electric water pumps you have consistent Waterflow regardless of engine speed same with the electric fans, the only thing different is the air entering the front at speed. Not sure exactly how this relates but it suggests If you can cool it at speed you should cool it at idle.
I have build a Triking(three wheeler with a Moto Guzzi California engine) and had to have it tested for being road legal in the Netherlands.
The engineer was top notch, very help full and he was very happy with my build quality .
Just as you mentioned it is all about safety
The Triking passed with flying colors on three minor issues
Hi Henk! I l made similar expiriences with the german TÜV when I built my JZR/Moto Guzzi Threewheeler 20 years ago. I had the engineer involved from the very first day, and there were no serious issues during final inspection. But I was pretty lucky to find this guy. Have fun and stay safe. Grüße aus Deutschland!
You can turn the tensioner screw into a compression design. All you need is a threaded shaft collar to capture the bracket.
You need to do more tests before concluding . Are the fans push or pull check this its not as simple as reversing polarity. The fan cowl needs to be very close to the rad so it doesnt circulate around the edges so dont move it away. Does it still overheat with the bonnet up in which case it wouldn't be a venting issue.
I would 3d print a 10mm sphere on the end of a stick, so you can easily verify clearances before you see him again. If the ball fits in the space, you are good!
Fingers are about 10mm thick, if you can get your fingers all around the engine you're good. It's the guide my engineer used.
I have just been use a 10mm drill bit ;)
Well, that just makes more sense :)
@@HomeBuiltByJeff
Some lovely louvres on the bonnet and wings maybe? Like the 250GT. . . I was impressed you squeezed it under the bonnet, I would have took the easier option of installing the lump in the back seat and boot.
The vents were from the engine bay to behind the tires. About 80mm squares.
My etype series 1 has a 4.2l with 2 original electric fans that kick on and original 2 core radiator about 800x600, and stays cool in any traffic. It has a new high performance belt driven water pump.
Hi mate! first of all let me just say LOVE YOUR WORK 😊
On the cooling issue I think the air that's going it at idle or low speed might be getting a bit trapped in the engine bay with no outlet. Vents to create air flow will definitely help hidden inside engine bay ones or other. either way you could possibly come up with both hidden ones and aesthetically pleasing exterior ones.
I look forward to seeing how you go with a solution.
All the best 🙏🏼😊
Maybe take the see through cover off the engine bulge on the bonnet to test this out. Sounds like a Triumph Stag issue where the air coming through the radiator had nowhere to go.
Simple test for idle. Can you tape the rubber flaps shut to see if that helps. Also not sure you have any more space between shroud and rad. But pulling the fans further away from the rad core will help utilize more of the core area. Though discharge obstructions (engine) creates its own problems. It would also be helpful if you knew the water flow rate of the total system as pointed out on electric water pump head pressures capability.
Sounds like a good engineer to use Jeff, mine was a legend when air bagging the vw bus.
Really good technical info as an Australian 🇦🇺 builder livin in 🇺🇸 experienced in building to engineer specs and requirements… moving to the US and building cars here now has been nothing but awesome .. my clients know I build to engineer specs even through here in Wisconsin isnt any requirements on a build .. you could put a blown hemi in a Amish buggy as a daily drive here … no pits no green or pink slips no engineer papers nada.. basically run whatcha bring. 😂
Jeff!
Great video! I really enjoyed the feed back you got from the engineer and the changes you made to address them. Does your state have a guide or whatever you call it as an online document for download?
I'm in a jurisdiction where none of this is required (Canada, not that different from the U.S.). I don't see any issues with the things that were called out and would like to have a "check list" of sorts to start with for my project cars.
For what it's worth, I've always thought your engine clearances are too low - not that it would matter from a safety perspective per se but that the engine is going to "rock-n-roll" and make contact and generally being annoying. Ever seen a Jeep engine buck around in the engine bay when in low range? :)
Best regards, Bud. Keep at it!
You might have to re-think your hood my friend, to address the cooling.
Perhaps a GT40 style duct in front of the hood window.
Heat rises, goes up.
Problem is at idle
what a disappointment, I hope you don't have to disconnect everything from the engine and of course I also hope that the cooling problem will be solved, I am now confident that you will have come up with a solution next week 🍀💪🏻
Hi Jeff, thank you for the reply. I will have to re-read the clause.
Alternator - weld a nut and it will push at it and you can use a double nut to lock it.
Hi Jeff, you could have had the alternator mount the way you first thought, mounting an end stop at the inside end then have the bolt the original way screwing onto the end stop to push away.
Faire et défaire, c'est toujours travaillé comme on dit en français.
Oi Jeff, I have no knowledge of car cooling tech but to my dumbo brain it seems like it would be a worthwhile test to check if the idle temps increase if you take out the hood window to let the hot air in the engine bay escape. That always looked like quite the heat trap to me and I would suggest a window with F40 style vents. I might be talking complete nonsense tho, what do I know. Literally, in this case. 🤣
Props to the helpful engineer, by the way. The TÜV guy here in Germany who was supposed to help me getting the wheels for my Lancia legal was exactly that type of douche loving to make others trouble that you dont want in such a situation.
With the cooling issue Jeff, have you tried controlling both fans independently, having one come on at a lower temperature and as it rises having the other one come on, also the majority of fan shrouds if see have the rubber flaps in hinges so they are much easier to open close. Maybe look at a larger capacity header tank or higher cfm fans.
Springwashers is generally something that is not recommended for homebuilds here in Sweden, Nyloc nuts or Nordloc washers are much safer.
Jeff, remove the shroud and fit fans to the rad. I had the same issue with my shroud. All good after I removed it. David
Well done with the engineer, looks like you have mostly a win.
For your cooling, you could cheat, and use a waterless coolant basically it will keep cooler by nature (we use it in very old cars) draw back is that it is expensive.
Looking forward to the next video 🤣 let's see if the theory meets the practice, sure it will though.
When is the next engineer appointment?
Well that sucks having to remove the engine Jeff.
Thou looking at that header clearance doesn't seem to be any other option.
All id say before removing the engine just check all around the engine especially the bulkhead/firewall as thats tight there for any other clearance issues not picked up by the engineer.
That can be remedied
While the engine is out..
.. considering the complexity of this build, your engineers snagging list is not too bad..
...
Hi Jeff
Did you buy cheap ebay fans?
get yourself some spal high performance fans and you get much better flow of air
not all fans are created equal
I don’t suppose bonnet vents will aid much cooling at idle . You need to be moving for the negative air pressure to pull out the heat . Maybe more powerful fan motors? But I think you already have good ones. I’m sure you’ll work it out
I have a Davis Craig water pump 150lph with the controller and a 3 core core brass copper radiator with 3/4" tubes and 12 fins per inch and twin 14" Maradyne fans mounted to the radiator with metal straps on the frame of it and with no shroud as the shroud was pushing the air back onto the radiator .. You problem is airflow like I had and now mine sits cruising at 180deg f and in bumper to bumper on a 32deg c day it goes to 195 and thermos cut in and in 40 seconds back down to 185 deg f ... Fan airflow is another issue you need them with the large 225Watt motors and shew blades hence maradyne .. I have a small car like yours with a v8 and under bonnet blower pushing roughly 700hp and had heating issue for a year till i worked it out ..
Just put a bolt and washer into the alternator from the back side, eliminate the "adjuster".
Coat the exhaust manifold you can get special coatings put on to try reducing the heat in the engine bay that might help..
Already have
Tedious jobs but essential. Not too far to go... Exciting..
14:00 put a lock nut between the bracket and the head of the bolt so it doesn’t flop about.
Hi Jeff, great episode as always and bummer on having to pull the engine. Re the cooling issue - is the radiator dual pass? If not you could convert be cutting a slit in each end tank and inserting a plate to force the water to pass twice through the core.
Sweet as not too big a list for the engineer approval!! I know it would look shit but maybe a few triangle air vents somewhere in the hood soughta like the rally cars back in the 80's
Oh yes, good idea. Naca ducts look great
@@Masimba NACA ducts are air inlets. Jeff needs to get air out.
My old man ducted air out of the engine bay in his old Tarago van which was fitted with a 308
Keep up the good work.
Can you use a fan shroud from a more modern car, like a focus? Or would they just be too thick, even if you found one that fit the radiator?
Are you controling the electric water pump speed and flow rate with your engine computer? Try differant flow rates. Also make sure air cannot flow around the radiator. You probally need about 2cm between the fans and the radiator for air to pull from the edges of the shroud. Also round the fan intakes.
I don't think what you're going through right now with Engineering makes Australia a "nanny state" (other things do though 😉) - here in Europe (France specifically), I will have to probably go through a similar thing ("Le passage aux Mines") although I do have the import certficate ("CERFA 13750*07") for the car when I brought it in from Australia, which may smooth things over. Not an engine swapped car of course, just an EFI conversion. Will have to work on the loud exhaust for sure!
All told, with your situation and what the engineer has found - it's not all that bad (my attitude always is, it could have been worse!) - even if pulling the engine again is a pain... Re: Cooling. Have you just tried pinning those flaps down on the radiator as a test, to see if that allows the engine to cool at idle? At least then you can determine if they are part of the problem or not, might just be leading you down the garden path so to speak. I see someone else mentioned puller vs pusher fans. After that, I see you've gotten plenty of tips from people with far more experience with water-cooled cars than I... Good luck as always!
The Alfa looks so good the stance hope the engine job isn’t a complete fiasco 😊
Maybe ducting under the radiator between valises and core support
Would be interesting to see the water pump speeds, is it moving he water to fast or to slow?
Again my grand son is excited when you pull out the engine 😂
Big radiators isn't always the answer to effective cooling water flows too fast to get cooled think on that one PS love the car
it wouldn't be Home Built if it wasn't done twice 😂
not sure the engineer would go for it but instead of deleting the electric cutouts could you remove the switch and wire them up to the ecu so it can activate them only when the throttle pedal goes past 60% so it is just an automated system that would be almost impossible to get them to open below the rev range they are testing
More openings in the front valance no openings in it and lack of grill space with twin head lamps surface area just a thought
You are lucky to have Mrs Jeff in your corner
What’s the air flow rating on the fans ? You can get high flow fans they will move more air and might help with your cooling issue
For the alternator, why not go a bit older school and remove that bolt. Lots of cars needed you to lever the alternator against the belt tension and then use a pinch bolt to hold it in position. Not sure if your alternator has that provision as the thread needs to go along the alternator, not across.
NSW is a massive nanny state…