What happened to this HUNT Gravel Wheel?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- We go looking for the cause of this hub failure. The Wheel is a HUNT 4 Season Gravel XWide.
I am curious to see what HUNT say as these are just 6 months old.
Cassette is a SRAM NX 11-50
Bike is a Pipedream Alice,
Rider is 90kg
Thanks for posting these tear down videos and diagnosis of problems - a month ago I was considering to buy some Hunt wheels but after seeing the recent post on spoke nipples all cracking and this hub, I’m staying clear and likely going with DT Swiss 240 based .
I was going to buy Hunt wheels as the price and advertising for them was very attractive but decided to rebuild my WTB 32 spoke 700c gravel wheels with DT Swiss 350 Hubs and am very happy with them. Having seen a few reports an issues with Hunt wheels since so I am very glad that I made the correct decision. The reason for original Shimano hub replacement was cage bearing failure on the front hub which destroyed the hub. Lots happier now with sealed bearings.
I've been running a set of Hunt 4 seasons Mason X since 2020. Covered 7500 miles on rough lake district roads. No issues whatsoever. They were bought to replace stock wheels that broke several spokes.
They might be garbage but the Marketing is fantastic!
Like most product nowadays
There are four key marketing principles, the four Ps; Product, Price, Promotion and Place.. The design and manufacturing quality of a product needs to be fit for purpose. If they get it wrong, then all the positive, friendly, promotional reviews in amenable magazines and websites will, in the end, come to nought.
Is this not the best cycling mech page on the tube guys? In fact, fast becoming my favourite overall cycling content page.
Thank you. Spread the word.
If a hub can't take the strain of a person riding a bike with an 12 sp Eagle Cassette, its absolutely an issue with the product being completely unsuitable for the application its meant to be used with.
I read a lot of very bad comments about Hunt down here, I don't agree with them
I've had a set of Hunt aerodynamicist 54 carbon spoked wheels for around 3 years now, they are the best Wheels I've ever ridden. Bearings used are the japanese EZO ones and they are still as smooth as the day i bought them. Never had any problems with the wheels except the freehub pawls, they like to stick now and then but this was easy to solve by just adding thinner grease.
Been through a couple rear wheel axles on my hunts, back when I was a fitter and much harder rider 90kg~ +15kg bike and gear.
Heard the first snap when I bumped down a 4" kerb though must have been weakened already.
2nd one started getting cassette wobble interfering with gear changes, was cracked pretty much like that one, same as you couldn't resist snapping it, had worn the pawls/outer ring so after another new axle was slipping on high load.
To be fair though Hunt were great always sorted everything out, and those wheels took some serious abuse, was running mad high pressures flying down steep cobbled roads daily, 20k~ miles... defiantly got my moneys worth.
The noises that were coming from that rear hub and the time it was happening boggles my mind that it ever got to this state. I can see if it were a race car or airplane, but a bike that a human pedals around it's just ridiculous.
All the noise of destruction was covered by the absurdly loud racket coming from the Posers Rachet.
Perhaps an example of a hub designed with low weight as a major consideration but off-road or gravel riding, especially with a big rider on board, requires strong components. Shimano has persisted with steel axles and freehubs for a lot of their hubs. These are heavier, naturally, but less likely to fail.
Miche Primato road hubs are great value for money options. Nice big cartridge bearings and a steel axle option for heavier riders. Rear hubs are high stress components and sexy, lightweight designs are not always the optimal choice.
Many assumptions and ill informed comments, these hubs have an interference fit set of end caps which allow ease of servicing and the ability to swiftly switch freehub standards. What is more likely to have happened is that when the wheels have been out of the bike the weight of the cassette has caused the freehub to emerge from the hubshell slightly. Then when it has been pushed back together there hasn't been quite enough of an anti clockwise twist to ensure the pawls are not knocked out of alignment. Then clamped in the bike and ridden the displaced pawl has fowled up inside the hubshell causing all the damage seen. This would likely have occured very early in the ride.
Wow. That Axle snap is horrifying.
Thats funny, the axle on my Hunt wheel broke too.
It is made out of aluminium. Why are you surprised?
Love these videos, and I know the intention is to educate and not admonish, but I'm no longer sold on Hunt wheels. It feels like the age-old classic, "you get what you pay for," cycling brand.
No, at the price you have a right to expect MUCH better quality
that looks like hub body misalignment issue more than strain on the axle. If the drive and non drive side are out by 0.5mm or more it would over stress the axle. That axle appears more to be a a symptom more than a cause. I've seen to many hunt hubs blow new bearings and after checking they have been out of alignment.
Oh 😮 not a good look
I’m using DT Swiss hubs which at the moment seem to be a little bit more reliable.
And I’ve used the hubs on a gravel bike for a two week bikepacking trip on the Outer Hebrides. Not travelling light. No issues at all
👍👍
I've had the wheel-side bearing in a 4Seasons V2 freehub destroy itself. Replaced the bearings but I suspect the original failure took some material off the bearing spacer tube inside the freehub, so the new bearing didn't have enough side loading and soon failed. Replaced the freehub with new and now it's good again. Infrequent but regular inspection should catch it before a failure starts chewing things up again.
The way spacers are stacked, shortening either increases side loading or doesn't have effect, only increasing the chance of pawls catching on the nearby hub body (not freehub) bearing.
Still, the bearing in question is the most protected one and fails last, so most likely the freehub was faulty from the beginning
@@feedbackzaloop I mean the spacer tube between the two bearings inside the freehub, not the spacer ring between the freehub and the main hub body. The pawls were not impacted at all.
@@billhulley yep, got it. Just wanted to expand the case for other commenters.
One more thing: it also could have been undersized bearing seat - either way swapping the while freehub helped
2 wheelsets from Hunt in the last 8-9yrs and although I have had some small issues (missing centre lock mount, poor rim taping) customer service has ALWAYS been second to none. You wouldn’t get that from a lot of companies and I wouldn’t hesitate to buy again.
Looks like a formula (not formula brakes etc. Brand) hub (Taiwanese Company), that seems fairly robust (have it on few lower end Cannondales), most probably some rogue bearing got in the pool.
Hunt have great customer service and their marketing/branding is excellent however every bike mechanic I know and people I see on RUclips consistently highlight failings with Hunt wheels - myself I purchased some Hunt trail wide 29 MTB wheels (NX Eagle 12 speed on HG hubs, boost) with 15% off the RRP in a Hunt promotion, I fitted them to my MTB, the wheels were really out of tru and the hubs literally fell apart, I did not ride them further than a test ride, I was quite concerned (scared) what would have happened if I was charging down one of my usual routes I ride - Hunt customer service was good and they arranged to collect the wheels via courier at their expense and very quickly refunded my money in full ... I know there are many who have good experiences with Hunt wheels, for me I would not go anywhere near them and certainly would not entrust my safety with a pair of Hunt wheels based on my own personal experience.
I've had some hunt trail wide mtb wheels and they've been very reliable, river crossings, 10+ trips to bike park wales etc. They are 2018 models. I jump high and I'm 92kg! Could this be the later wheels are missing some QC to keep up with demand?
Good to know! this is more likely thm chasing headline weight stats
Very informative. Thanks very much!
That axle doesn't look much different from the one out of the i9 hub on my MTB, I don't think it's underbuilt for the purpose (and coincidentally, I just had that hub apart to replace some bearings that had just started to become a little rough). I think the bearing probably failed first due to a cage failure, and then the bits of cage grinding around chewed up the neighbouring bearing as well as the axle. Then that axle scoring/grinding combined with the wheel and freehub no longer being properly supported on their respective bearings would have caused the cracking.
The lesson to take away from this is: if your bike is creaking or grinding, STOP RIDING and service it (or get it serviced). If the bad bearing had been caught and replaced early, the rest of the hub likely would have been completely undamaged. Instead, because they kept riding, they now get to buy a whole new hub, get the wheel re-laced, and they don't have a bike to ride for however long it takes to make that happen.
[I think the bearing probably failed first due to a cage failure]
No matter what the pathology of failure is, that axle snapping the way it did is incredibly troubling.
In my many years of cycling (almost seven decades) and doing my own mechanics, I've seen many bent axles from freewheel days, the introduction of the 7spd frwhls resulted in many bent ones in the day, thus the reduction of cog spacing (it never really worked out), but I've never seen a good quality axle snap like that, even badly bent.
There's a metallurgical problem there. I suspect if a magnet were brought close to that axle, it would attract it. Which immediately indicates it not being a hardened alloy (like stainless steel, with very few exceptions).
That axle was bound to fail. The other components followed.
@@stephensaines7100 The axle was almost certainly aluminum, and I'm guessing probably 17mm outer and 13mm inner to fit over a 12mm thru-axle (and it'll be supported on either end by a slip-fit on the end caps). The middle of the axle was worn away by the bearing shrapnel though, and that would have caused a stress concentration which then caused the cracking that allowed for breaking the axle by hand once it was removed.
For some napkin math: assuming 7075-T6, ~6 inch length, 17mm outer 13mm inner, with inner 1/3 loading, the safety factor with a 200lb load is around 8. Obviously the detailed calculation will be a bit different due to the asymmetrical placement of the bearings on the axle, etc, but I'm pretty sure Hunt did their homework on this. (Also, for comparison, 316 stainless would only have a safety factor of around 4 for these parameters, 4130 would be around 10)
@@Nicoya No its much more simple than that, the tube is not an axle someone forgot to install a part (a small ring between the freehub and the hub bearing) the tube which is not supposed to be loadbearing at all takes all the load of the Thru axle and this is the result.
@@chris1275cc Oh interesting, I didn't know that the Hunt hubs use 3 inner race spacers. Missing one of those would definitely send the bearings to an early grave due to the excessive side-loading.
@@Nicoya Yeah it's really tiny about 2mm, they anodize it red so you didn't loose it but unfortunately that doesn't help when is covered with old grease, when you pull the freehub body off to do a service if the cap on the driveside is the one that gives first and the tube stays in the hub, the spacer sticks itself to the back side of the freehub and if you aren't careful it falls off without you noticing.
Need to forget about low weight hubs - especially for off-road. Seen quite a few hub failures from underdesign - just not enough material to take the strain and way too much aluminum where stiffer materials should be used. Highly recommend going for a steel axle in all MTB/gravel hubs for bigger riders or anyone who does a moderate amount of jumping.
I've recently been considering buying these exact wheels. And as a heavier (90kg) rider, weight limits is something I normally look for. These do have a limit stated, and I've shy'd away simply because when I'm loaded with luggage (backpacking kit) I'm pretty close to it.
I'd always assumed weight limits applied more to the spoke snapping rather than that type of failure.
However, we don't know the full story. Did the rider just send it of a six foot jump, or was this just normal use and simply just one of those things?
I don't think that spokes are normally the weak point - more likely spoke to rim interface (rim), spoke to hub interface (hub), or as we saw here, the axle may have been the weak point. But it is also possible that the axle design is fine, but this axle was defective and it just took some time to fail.
@@dperreno Yes, I tend to agree with you on the spoke theory. I myself have had a few cracks in the rim where the spoke connect to the nipple. Cheap rim, OEM fitment.
However, reading through the comments, there's been a few issues with the axle, which leads me the believe they are substandard material. A shame really, given the reputation Hunt has. Guess it just boils down to who you speak to and your own experiences with the wheels.
@@r.davies2702 Yes, I'm not that familiar with Hunt wheels as I am in the U.S. so they aren't as popular here. It will be interesting to see what the story is with that axle - it definitely shouldn't have failed like that. As an engineer, that part should be made of steel, not aluminum, especially on a gravel wheel!
What is the weight limit of hunt wheels? 25kg?
My 4 season supa duras are the biz, no nipple cracks, and last time I looked, the freehub internals looked new, after 15,000 miles. I guess, its like anything, there will be some that have an invisible defect, and thats the result.
I had a pair of Hunt wheels that came with my Mason bike from new, looks to be the same hubs.
I noticed I was getting loads of chain slap, with corresponding chips on the chainstay 😞, I thought the roads had just gotten really bad.
However, it was actually due to the freehub bearings becoming super rough and draggy. This was within a just couple of months of mostly dry riding.
I got onto Hunt and they supplied me new hub bearings and freehub. The original bearings were the "Revo Cream" ones in the video and are rubbish. The replacements were "EZO" branded and seem better. Although the freehub still came pre fitted with the same shite Revo Cream ones.
Shortly after I got new Scribe wheels and have never had the chain slapping issue ever again. The bearings in these are still cheap but seem alot better and have held up just fine to over 10k miles of all sorts of rubbish weather and plenty of washing with a hose etc.
For the sake of just some slightly better bearings in the Hunt wheels, they would probably be alright.
Doesn't explain that axle, and the obvious granular nature of the metal, thus the crack.
There is meant to be a spacer between the drive side bearing and freehub. I could not see this in the shot of the parts. Which would explain the freehub rubbing on the bearings. If this missing then this would suggest 100% user error
That washer had worn the deep grove you can see and eventually killed itself. Hunt have replaced all of this on warranty now.
Yeah, my Hunt gravel wheels have started cracking around the nipples in multiple places. Dealing with the warranty process in Australia is a nightmare and is taking weeks to even get underway. Will never buy Hunt wheels again.
Im going away from hunt just got dt swiss wheels 370 with LN ratchet hubs and g540 rims. 2mm dt spokes. Heavyer but should be strong
If you can snap what is left of the axle with bare hands, that tells you that the component is not fit for purpose in the first place
Its not an Axle though.
@@chris1275cc yes of course, my bad. Still made too weak though
There should be a little red anodized spacer ring on the axle tube it basically fills the gap between the inner freehub bearing and the drive side hub bearing, the tube itself is not supposed to take the load of the thru-axle or the system weight it just holds everything inline. If you don't refit the ring when servicing everything seems fine at first but the tube cannot take the load for long and this happens. The little ring is a much harder grade of aluminum too, I doubt it would be ground up to dust I think it was missing.
Also not really important but the white plastic ring you thought was to protect the bearings is actually just a kind of retainer to hold the pawls/springs in the free hub body.
That spacer is what cut the deep groove in the axle I think. It’s exactly the place and width it should be. The wheels have never been apart. Just 6 months old.
@@Mapdec Its also exactly where the tube would "bulge" into the bearing race as load from the thru axle crushed it from the spacer not be present. Hunt also offer a choice of freehub so it may not have been taken apart after purchase but it would have been whoever packed the wheels at HUNT who installed the freehub. You can see where the ratchet teeth have chewed the backside of the freehub suggesting the axle compressed and it moved inward before total failure.
@@chris1275cc there is defo no bulging or crushing going on here. It would need huge force to crush a Metal tube in that direction. Also as it did it would cease against the bearings. Everything came apart very easily and smoothly.
@@Mapdec Not really just a moderate amount (like 6-12nm) over a period of time, likely with periodical reapplication of force, 6 months or so should do it. The inner race of the freehub bearing has failed how would you know if the tube seized against it or not? There is nothing left to stop it coming apart easily. I just find it hard to believe that the spacer just disintegrated to the point there is nothing left but dust, much more likely it was never there in the first place and the tube took the load for as long as it could.
@@chris1275cc 6-12mm. 😳. The thing would explode under the force.
Have come across similar issue ( bearing collapse) on various brands of wheel ….is poor quality bearings the cause?
Rarely. Mostly just dirt ingress and sometimes poor alignment and fitting.
As a bicycle mechanic of 25 years+, I'd say the rider noticed some bad noises and thought he'd take a look. Didn't reassemble correctly and off he went. Clearly that mess didn't occur after a quick ride and should've gone in for proper inspection sooner. A close look at the rim condition would help to deduce. If he's a bigger rider, the axle failure could've been the start. You rarely hear good news about Hunt wheels.
This happened mid epic ride and they nursed it home over a few more hours of riding.
it appear to be missing the spacer between the outer driveside hub bearing and the inner freehub bearing, causing the freehub to clash with the hub and push the pawls into the base of the ratchet and mash the hell out of it all. It should be a red anodized spacer about 2mm in thickness and can be pictured on the Hunt website if you look for replacement freehubs.
I think that may have disintegrated
This is EXACTLY what has happened you can even see where the tube (which is not supposed to be a load bearing part at all) has been crushed.
@@chris1275cc what you are seeing there is a deep cut made by that spacer
I would expect to see at least some chunks or dust with red anodizing in the mess. If that spacer was missing, it would remove the tension from withing the axle that it relies on for some of its strength. It's very possible the axle has come out with the large cassette and been refitted with that spacer missing. If it were missing I am not surprised at all the axle snapped.
I've had the freehub fall out of other brand wheels while fixing a puncture so easily done.
Welcome to the age of modern cycling, where axles are made of Al alloys instead of steel. They're no longer lifetime parts but "consumables" to be replaced periodically along with bearings and pawls.
Looks like normal hunt engineering...
I have five sets of Hunts with thousands of miles on each set. Never had an issue.
I will never buy Hunt products again. We need more people to tell their stories about these terrible products, including the ones with the disintegrating rims. Buy cheap, buy twice.
Hang on a minute… where you said this section is a “gap” on the axel im pretty sure there should be a metal spacer that sits between the bearing in the freehub, and the freehub body… this stops the freehub from being over tightened against the hub!… on my hunt wheels this metal spacer is red in colour??? This part was completely missing from your breakdown???
Yes. That red spacer is now just black gunk. It wore that deep groove in the axle while it disintegrated.
Strange, battered 650b Hunt and these same wheels on various gravel races, no issues at all, do Hunt mix there production sources and components or is there a fake Hunt website out there??
This is all because the actual hub body has got smaller over the years and disc brakes doesn’t help. The torque forces on axles on modern bikes is ridiculous! Hubs generally should be getting a little more Beefier as we see 12spd come into play even on lower end machines, thus putting even higher strain factors into the hub assembly. I think to be fair even hubs should have a weight limit. I think running a lighter cassette is huge investment but you will save the hub if your live in my honest opinion. Shot for the breakdown. 👍🏻
These are novatec hubs right? Im amazed if anything
On the side note, what is "ceramic" about this hub? Advertised "for enhanced durability". All I see is regular steel and anodized aluminium
However must give 'em credit for not snapping in half right away but letting it chew up the internals for a while
I couldn’t see anything ceramic in there
Its the grey coating on the freehub body, it actually seems to work as the splines do survive "the bite" longer than most. Ironically though because of how it chips off around where the cassette contacts it makes the bite marks look deeper and a lot worse than they are.
DT Swiss it is then
Ill say again ,the most overrated wheels in cycling .People just keep buying them .And the noise is awful too
Cap bro, i have a set of 54's with carbon spokes and they are the best wheels I've ridden for that price!😊
@larsdohmen6796 Oh right ,must be the best then if you think so ...
@@larsdohmen6796 just look at the comments
They are junk. You get what you pay for.
All the stories online about failing Hunt Wheels is very worrying.
Hunt are very good at 'Marketing' and not so good at 'Making'..........the plus side is they stand by their customers. However all these warranty claims must be costing them an arm and a leg!
If you want a good set of reliable wheels, get them hand-built by a reputable wheel builder - simple as that!
Amen 🙏
Can't say fairer than that ;-).
What type of grease should u be puting in?
Bearing grease. I like Mobil XHP222
What happened? Just riding along and it locked up?
customer just reported mis shifting gears and cassette wobble...
@@Mapdec Love the technical content, keep up the great work!!
Not watched the video yet but I assume it's to do with Hunts QC or lack of it 🤭
more a question of 'fit for use'
So close yet so far! I was so tempting by Hunt, but the more I hear about them the more I am put off by them.
Hunt again?!!!
This channel is becoming a bit of a witch hunt for Hunt
Was it an aluminium or steel axle?
alu
@@Mapdec You had to twist my arm heavily to make me specify an alu axle in a offroad hub!! Rgr
Every bike I have uses cromo axles and steel hubs.
Just replaced my axle on my 4 Seasons...
They are 5 years old and have been abused.
It looks like the hub went to a shrink and had a mental breakdown. Wowzzaa
metal breakdown
@@kkkwwwaaakkk
Me(n)tal fatigue
looks cheap novatec hubs,.. go for dt swiss 350 next time
I've been building with Novatec hubs for decades , genuine warranties are thankfully rare, customer negligence, including overly aggressive washing is usually the cause of most issues
That hub looks like a cheap rip-off of a 2008 Hope Pro2 hub which are fantastic bits of kit.
I can never understand whay Hunt wheels are popular, they are utter crap. Re bigger cassette, you could have the same strains and loads on a good 2x drive, with a smaller cassette, and a small front ring. The hub should handle it, although it doest look like the cassette was loose, or maybe the alloy was too soft and poor quality, suspect a bit of both.
What is wrong with Shimano? People sneer at it because it's "common" but only a fool would question quality which has stood the test of decades and MILLIONS of products.
It’s a good question. Same with Campag hubs.
@Mapdec Yes, I have half a dozen Mirage and Athena hubs from the mid 90s. Never had a problem with them. I'm sure some people think they are too heavy, though..😂
Bargain bin wheels. Maybe all you want or need but thats what they are
Waiting for this video to be removed in the near future 🤔😉😉
For what?
@@Mapdec you don’t see many (if any) critical videos, regarding cycling products, however factual and objective they are
👍
@@bikepackingadventure7913indeed...
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