*Just in case you're not aware,* you can find more audio sermons, lectures, debates and teachings where I got this debate audio: www.bahnseninstitute.com/library/
@@RedefineApologetics thank you! I also have tried listening to his lectures on Bahnsen U on apologia's website. Unfortunately those seem to have been recorded with the microphone in the next county as you can barely hear him lol. Thank you for the resource brother! May God bless your ministry.
Overall interesting on both sides and thanks for sharing! Still i like hearing more than presup for arguments which he did do to an extent. Arguments that rely on the clarity, reliability, and so forth of the bible also fail pretty bad if you go into contradictions, failed prophecies, inconsistencies, and the fact mamy of the stories are copies from older myths.
I would say that what many _consider_ to be contradictions -are not contradictions.- And what *appear* to be failed prophecies, -are not failed prophecies.- Also *perceived* inconsistencies, are not indeed -inconsistencies.- And the alleged -fact- that many of the stories are copies from older myths is just that. An allegation.
@@RedefineApologetics of course you would say that, but if the same contradictions, failed prophecies, copied stories, and inconsistencies were in any other book they would be laughable even to you. Some of the contradictions and so forth are so blatantly obvious its almost painful watching people do mental gymnastics around them. There is no amount of mental stretching someome outside of the faith can do to prepare for such gymnastics. We must also keep in mind these stories that could easily be improved in a vast amount of ways are "divinely inspired". Also, the allegation that some of the stories are copied from other myths or ride on the backs of them is for some of the stories actually consensus scholarship. In the same way that mamy of the contradictions are...and the fact there are forgeries etc..
@@RedefineApologetics I have my reasons for that, even Bart Ehrman who is well recognized in the field can't convince a Christian of the contradictions and failed prophecies so there is no way I can. Similar to how Josh Bowen can't convince apologists to agree on basic facts of the Bible and consensus scholarship when it disagrees with their preconceived notions and faith beliefs. Blatant contradictions, failed prophecies, fundamental inconsistencies to Gods "nature" (such as obvious evil acts, racism, rape, slavery, and God remaining hidden), and the fact so many of the stories are forgeries are no match for dogma.
@@RedefineApologetics look into how the religion started, the actual roots of it from a non-apologist scholar with actual experience in the field. From blood sacrifice to copied lore and inconsistencies the Bible is muddled with earlier cult influence from beliefs that are now accepted "mythology". Then you have the complete lack of evidence outside of the gospels which contain more contradictions to big events such as the resurrections (I say resurrections as it seemed somewhat commonplace during those times, lol). Gospels mind you written at the earliest 30 years after supposed events then continuing much later. You have different writers for Paul, Moses not being a historical figure, and so much more as well like questions "did Jesus himself think he was the son of God/God himself?" and "what is the trinity ACTUALLY in the Bible?".
I don't see how this is any proof of god Here is a thought Does god know that we are being who are mentally limited? If yes, then he knows the confusion that he is causing. Hence, he is a god of confusion. And since he also created the laws of atonement, he is then also a god of death. God is thus a god of chaos (which comes from confusion), and death. He is a god of chaos and death. This is the Sumarian god Negral......he orchastrates confusion, which Paul says that he is not the author of. And he wants death, and infact, you can not have eternal life until you die......hence, his eternal life, is infact, eternal death, wrapped up in a nice pretty bow, making you think that it is eternal life He is a god of chaos and death
What a strawman you built there. *Since you're going with thoughts, here is a thought* *_If you are confused, but I am not confused, why is not your confusion the result of your fallacious reasoning, and _**_-not-_**_ because of anything God has done?_*
Presup is such a lazy argument. If you have to resort to presup to win, you don't have good enough reasons to believe in a God all natural laws we currently understand show is impossible. You can also use presup to assume any God or unknown natural law, even advanced aliens.
@@RedefineApologetics a strawman? first off, this was so long ago that i made the comment, i don't know why i even said it...but i would assume that it was based around the idea that scripture was employed.....and even the idea of us humans not being able to understand if such is the case, then it is the fault of god, not mortals.....god being all knowing, he already knows that people will screw up understanding, despite trying to understand so no, my reasoning is not fallacious, despite your claim
@@dragonhawkeclouse2264 Okay, since you do not know why you said it and neither do I, let's get back on topic. God exists and is the creator. Yes, he knew you would sin, and that's why he sent Jesus. Believe in Jesus to be the best you. Which is better than the other option.
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Just about 30 min in but I'm feeling like to sit under Dr. Bahnsen would have been such a blessing!
bookmark 32:00
*Just in case you're not aware,* you can find more audio sermons, lectures, debates and teachings where I got this debate audio:
www.bahnseninstitute.com/library/
@@RedefineApologetics thank you! I also have tried listening to his lectures on Bahnsen U on apologia's website. Unfortunately those seem to have been recorded with the microphone in the next county as you can barely hear him lol.
Thank you for the resource brother! May God bless your ministry.
@@4jgarner You're welcome
Overall interesting on both sides and thanks for sharing!
Still i like hearing more than presup for arguments which he did do to an extent.
Arguments that rely on the clarity, reliability, and so forth of the bible also fail pretty bad if you go into contradictions, failed prophecies, inconsistencies, and the fact mamy of the stories are copies from older myths.
I would say that what many _consider_ to be contradictions -are not contradictions.- And what *appear* to be failed prophecies, -are not failed prophecies.- Also *perceived* inconsistencies, are not indeed -inconsistencies.- And the alleged -fact- that many of the stories are copies from older myths is just that. An allegation.
@@RedefineApologetics of course you would say that, but if the same contradictions, failed prophecies, copied stories, and inconsistencies were in any other book they would be laughable even to you.
Some of the contradictions and so forth are so blatantly obvious its almost painful watching people do mental gymnastics around them. There is no amount of mental stretching someome outside of the faith can do to prepare for such gymnastics.
We must also keep in mind these stories that could easily be improved in a vast amount of ways are "divinely inspired".
Also, the allegation that some of the stories are copied from other myths or ride on the backs of them is for some of the stories actually consensus scholarship. In the same way that mamy of the contradictions are...and the fact there are forgeries etc..
@@GoodVibrationsSound Easy to say there are contradictions and failed prophecies without giving examples.
@@RedefineApologetics I have my reasons for that, even Bart Ehrman who is well recognized in the field can't convince a Christian of the contradictions and failed prophecies so there is no way I can.
Similar to how Josh Bowen can't convince apologists to agree on basic facts of the Bible and consensus scholarship when it disagrees with their preconceived notions and faith beliefs.
Blatant contradictions, failed prophecies, fundamental inconsistencies to Gods "nature" (such as obvious evil acts, racism, rape, slavery, and God remaining hidden), and the fact so many of the stories are forgeries are no match for dogma.
@@RedefineApologetics look into how the religion started, the actual roots of it from a non-apologist scholar with actual experience in the field. From blood sacrifice to copied lore and inconsistencies the Bible is muddled with earlier cult influence from beliefs that are now accepted "mythology".
Then you have the complete lack of evidence outside of the gospels which contain more contradictions to big events such as the resurrections (I say resurrections as it seemed somewhat commonplace during those times, lol). Gospels mind you written at the earliest 30 years after supposed events then continuing much later. You have different writers for Paul, Moses not being a historical figure, and so much more as well like questions "did Jesus himself think he was the son of God/God himself?" and "what is the trinity ACTUALLY in the Bible?".
I don't see how this is any proof of god
Here is a thought
Does god know that we are being who are mentally limited?
If yes, then he knows the confusion that he is causing.
Hence, he is a god of confusion.
And since he also created the laws of atonement, he is then also a god of death.
God is thus a god of chaos (which comes from confusion), and death. He is a god of chaos and death. This is the Sumarian god Negral......he orchastrates confusion, which Paul says that he is not the author of. And he wants death, and infact, you can not have eternal life until you die......hence, his eternal life, is infact, eternal death, wrapped up in a nice pretty bow, making you think that it is eternal life
He is a god of chaos and death
What a strawman you built there. *Since you're going with thoughts, here is a thought* *_If you are confused, but I am not confused, why is not your confusion the result of your fallacious reasoning, and _**_-not-_**_ because of anything God has done?_*
Presup is such a lazy argument. If you have to resort to presup to win, you don't have good enough reasons to believe in a God all natural laws we currently understand show is impossible. You can also use presup to assume any God or unknown natural law, even advanced aliens.
@@RedefineApologetics a strawman? first off, this was so long ago that i made the comment, i don't know why i even said it...but i would assume that it was based around the idea that scripture was employed.....and even the idea of us humans not being able to understand
if such is the case, then it is the fault of god, not mortals.....god being all knowing, he already knows that people will screw up understanding, despite trying to understand
so no, my reasoning is not fallacious, despite your claim
@@dragonhawkeclouse2264 Okay, since you do not know why you said it and neither do I, let's get back on topic.
God exists and is the creator. Yes, he knew you would sin, and that's why he sent Jesus. Believe in Jesus to be the best you. Which is better than the other option.