As someone who has many knives and enjoys using them for everything i can find an excuse to, and who only recently got into climbing, my first though when i saw the knife shown in this video was "why doesn't it lock closed?" Glad you posted at least 1 alternative!
Look at box cutters that have more safety mechanisms. On many folding box cutters the button will lock it closed as well as open, and some retractable box cutters will pull the blade back if you let go. Sounds like someone needs to make a lightweight version with a carabiner size hole in the handle.
And here I was just about to complain that there are knives with closed locking switches. Also, I kinda hate the idea of a knife being attached by the pivot? Probably dumb and doesn't matter though. A little cloth sleeve or a sheath will entirely prevent this either way, add draw strings and straps until your personal level of paranoia is satisfied.
I was lead belaying my wife when her harness worked her EDC knife out of her pocket. She had simply forgotten take it out of her pocket, and doesn’t normally take it climbing. I swear to you, when it bounced off the rock on the way toward me, it opened up and started cartwheeling. Fell RIGHT past me and impaled itself in the ground. We had an honest conversation about if she was trying to cash in on my life insurance that night.
Get a locking knife with a pull pin and that won't happen. There is really no reason to make this video. Everyone is using the wrong type of locking knife.
Something similar happened to me. I had my regular folding EDC knife in the pocket of my trousers (zipped, I think), which just worked open and the knife fell out, hit a rock (which opened it) and fell quite close to a friend of mine who was belaying me at the moment. Nothing happened and we had a laugh about it, but I sure don't carry a knife that way anymore when I climb..
As a sailor, who has a similar requirement for a knife as a safety device, I'd recommend non-pointy knives to prevent stabing yourself, or others, in the kind of stressful situation where you might really need the knife in a hurry.
Commented a similar thing. Whitewater knives also have no pointy part. There's plenty but the NRS copilot is a fine one. Scuba knives also have the same deal
Good point! I’ve used Spatha knives for years as a mast and tower rigger. It hangs on a wire quickdraw at my side and I’ve found that it has come open on numerous occasions. Like similar knives, they’re cheap, and easily available, so no tears if they get lost or damaged. The serrated portion of the blade is equally great for cutting rope and bread rolls, but the as others say, the point is not really that useful. The easy solution for me seems to be to simply square off the point with a grinder. Thanks for highlighting this and great discussion.
As a tallship rigger and sailor we have to carry and climb with our knives all the time in some dicey conditions. Our main knife is always blunt tipped and fixed has been for centuries. Sometimes we'll carry a pointed folding knife but its always got a lock on it. We carry it all in regular usually home made leather sheath. The knife is only a hazard if unsheathed. When aloft we tie lanyards to them. If they were to fall out of the sheath they would fall away from us and be caught on a 4 foot lanyard instead of being strapped to our body. This configuration has been evolved over centuries.
As a millwright who’s moving around a lot I was worried of a flip knife opening on me so I used a knife that requires a button to be press so that the knife can open. Also a knife will wear in and become easier to open so I think that could be a factor in this case.
*"a knife will wear in and become easier to open"* I was thinking of this as he used brand new knives to test. Of course all he had were the new knives for testing. I think the various knives would open easier when used a bit. Thanks for another interesting video HowNOT2.
What you may not realize, is that some knives, after they've been carried around for a year or two, collect dirt in the mechanism...and become more difficult to open. I have a couple of knives like that...and the only ones that seem to have loosened any were really cheap knives, which weren't very tight to start with. I saw a couple videos about how Canada is cracking down on knives...and that's where I really first heard much said about knives getting easier to open as they wear. Makes me think the problem is a design/manufacturing issue, rather than being a normal issue with folding knives in general. I've been collecting knives for over fifty years, so I've seen a knife or two. Truth is, there are more junk knives out there than quality knives...but most people aren't good at selecting knives, and end up with junk. You can't judge the quality by the price, either.
Apparently nobody knows about the original locking knives. If you can find a locking knife from the 1800's you will see that the mechanism they use is a pull ring. Downside is that one handed openings take a significant amount of skill compared to any other method. But the locking mechanism will never fail. Far superior to anything today, but plan on using both hands to open it for a while. I would assume there are reproductions out there, but I have never looked around for them.
I'm for the button/ slide( prefer slide) locking but not on an assisted opening ,the ones that have a spring loaded blade and the button is a trigger to release not lock. I've had them pop in my pocket cutting its way out, fortunately not me thoe.
BLUNT TIPS. Whitewater companies figured this out a while ago (like the NRS Co-pilot). The canyoneering knife also looks like it got it mostly right. The goal is for cutting textiles (namely rope) should the need arrise. A point on a knife helps little with this goal
As a first responder, in swift water rescue we lash the handle of our fix blade knife to the sheath with one or two wraps of dental floss for basically the same reason. It keeps it in the hard plastic sheath so it’s there when you need it. If you need it you are going to break the dental floss. Cheap, easy, fix with a product we all have/ waterproof and minty fresh too, ;)
@@brendandordepending on diameter and material the big one will, and benchmade says they will take them back to re-sharpen … i wonder how many times it will cut climbing rope on the first stroke though! i try to only rely on it to do once, in worst case
When I worked as a rescue paramedic I carried a Gerber Vital Zip to cut rope and webbing. It uses standard utility knife blades. I would touch up new blades with a fine stone, and if I trashed the blade it was easy to replace. It went through seatbelts and 1/2 static rope in one easy stroke. All of my other rope and water rescue knives also had blunt tips. I could slash the crap out of something with them, but they only stabbed as well as a paint stir stick
A couple months ago I started putting a small piece of tape around the blade and handle securing my knife shut, so that it does not open accidentally. Saw a guide in the Tetons do this and thought it was a good idea. I personally do not use my knife that often, so a little piece of tape that I need to take off if I were to need it is not a big deal, and worth the extra "hassle."
A small diving knife with a fixed blade is the best utility knife you can carry. Square tip with a locking sheath. BTW, you seem to be recovering well. I'd never be able to tell.
i follow your channel bc my rope safety interest is primarily shibari/rope suspension and for that reason i’ve thought a lot about cutting ropes with one hand in one go. I used to carry trauma shears with a lightsaber belt clip dovetail hook (seems to cut up to 6mm rope with ease). Due to getting thicker ropes than that I switched to the Benchmade rescue j-hook with the full handle and it is truly the best tool i’ve found for 10mm rope. Also has the skeleton handle that can have paracord wrapped in it. On the other hand, replaceable blade rescue hooks can snap the blade under lateral force. I also have an Opinel and like that it is light and can lock both ways but it is not a single handed tool. Similar to that, there is an old Paul Presto knife also made by Lone Wolf Knives that is single handed and locks both closed and open via a button in the swivel hub, but the handle is the portion that swivels and havent seen any with an eyelet, just a pocket clip. Some of the paratrooper safety knives may suffice for cutting thick ropes but I’d test them out to be sure they work with things bigger than paracord and keep them sharpened. A lot of them go in a scabbard for the harness or ankle but they were harder for me to find than Benchmade turned out to be. thanks for posting! i love your content, especially the test bench! it has had me wondering how a Somerville bowline matches up to the strength of rope tied in a figure-8 or square knot since i first tuned in to HowNOT2 🖖
As a traditional sailor climbing the rig on tall ships I always have to have a big knife with me in a sheath on the center back of the harness. and as per tradition it does not have a sharp tip (sheeps foot point) this makes sure you at least can't stab yourself i Think this is the safest option. in the test you did it was a new knife, if he had a slightly older knife this might have caused it to become a bit looser in the hinge and more likely to open. i always like to keep my knives in some sort of a sheath just to prevent exactly this.
Testing with brand new knives = the result shown. Okay. When I carried a Spatha, once it got into "used" condition from canyoning (ie, 2 trips), I found it partly open hanging on my harness a couple times and stopped using it.
This was also my experience. Swapped to the Edelrid canyon. Can be kept as it is for aquatic canyons or use a weak ziptie for more safety in other situations. The only risk is cutting your leg or arm while pulling it out.
The Edelrid canyon knife comes of all the time when the sheath starts wearing out a bit, luckily its not pointy so it doesn't really stab you easily. Stopped using it in favor of a crkt bearclaw rescue which cuts rope better but of which the sheath also gets arguably more loose over time, however you can then throw in a spacer ring on the stud holding it in to get it tight again. Then stopped using that in favor of a Leatherman Raptor folded open in its sheath as it easily cuts a weighted rope and more easily cuts an unweighted rope than a knife and is more accurate and less "swinging around knifes" in stressfull situations.
love love love the CRKT bearclaw, it's an excellent river rescue knife for whitewater kayaking and rafting. Such a shame CRKT seems to have discontinued it
Drill a small hole on the sheath, close to the knife's finger hole, then run a very small zip tie through that hole and the finger hole. To take the knife out you have to not only overcome the sheath resistance but also break the zip tie. I have used this set-up for a long time now in wet canyons, no problems. Carry a couple of extra zip ties in case you need to secure the knife again after use.
I put a wrap of adhesive tape around my very small folding knife. I very very rarely use it so the extra step to open isn't really something I worry about.
@@HowNOT2 but then isnt it just easyer to go with something simple like an Opinel? ... it's among the lightest knives out there, locks open and closed, its dirt cheap, you can modify it to go one handed if you like to. and there is an Outdoor version aswell, even with glow in the dark. i have a size 15 as my cooking knive in my van, and a Nr8 in my MTB backback, a Nr 7, and a nr9 with bottle opener, and had a 8 Olive wood ... honestly... Nr 8 and the cheaper the better... left about two or three at airport security because i forgott, but you just don't mind really
Finally a subject I know a lot about lol. As a knife guy my suggestion for ppl worried about folding knives like these opening accidentally would be to use a small thick rubber band. I'd put it around the blade and handle towards the tip of the knife which would keep it close but still allow to you quickly be able to remove the rubber band and open the knife.
Knifesmith here. Personally I wouldnt even keep a slip-joint knife loose in my pocket when Im NOT climbing, unless its something like a Swiss Army knife. There are a myriad of quick release but LOCKING retention systems for fixed blade and folding knives. Choose one of those. Any knife or retention system that works solely on friction will inevitably fail under the right conditions. Any knife with a thumbstud will inevitably open in your pocket due to keys etc. You want your knife held securely in a holster, or sheath, which only opens when a trigger or latch is activated. A perfect example of this kind of sheath is the modern KABAR plastic sheath, or the Finnish M95 Fiskers rubber wheel system. Neither sheath will release the knife under traumatic force, but both allow immediate one-handed release with a bit of practise. Not suggesting you take a knife this large, just using them as an example of exemplary sheath design.
I'm super glad you put this out in the world Ryan. Like other people in the comments are saying, I like knives that are locked until you unlock them. I think that combined with a similar thing to the blunt-tipped fixed blades that prople are mentioning would be a good solution. I have a box knife from millwaukee that is locked with a button, I just use it for tuning skis mostly, but I like the safety that the design offers.
Most scuba divers carry a knife or line/rope cutter of some sort for similar safety reasons, and they vary greatly in terms of design and safety. Many of the designs I prefer have a "blunt" squared-off prying tip and are only sharp on the sides; these still provide a sharp edge and more utility/flexibility than the line cutters (which can't cut anything thicker than a certain diameter) but substantially reduce the chance of a puncture if they somehow get loose or slip.
Interesting. I'd personally just use a button release/axis lock knife that is locked in BOTH the closed and open position unless you press/activate the lock button/switch - easily opened and closed with 1 hand. And I would use one of those retracting tool tether/lanyards that way you never have to attach it to a carabiner and have no chance of dropping it. Also I like the one you showed that has a sheath, not necessarily for the sheath but for the blade design - a round blunted safety tip is perfect for climbing when it is only meant for cutting rope and has less chance of impaling you (though it certainly still would if you were unlucky, a blade is a blade). I wouldn't use a sheathed knife for climbing though, as the sheath and knife could fall off of its attachment point or the knife could come out of the sheath with enough force - especially in a dynamic climbing situation where pushes/pulls happen often on gear and clothing. But that is why I like this channel, TEST your gear before it teaches you why it was a bad choice. (I am not a climber, but I like knives and love your gear testing videos).
My daily carry / utility knife is a SOG that has the lock open / lock closed. It’s not what I use for climbing and after seeing this video I think it reinforces the value in that type of feature for this use case, where the knife could see forces much higher than they were intended for. Only other methods of solving this problem might be using a heavy duty rubber band around it to prevent it from coming open, but that seems like it’s got its own flaws.
Weird shit happens climbing. There's often a lot of different diameter gear swingin around and stuff getting caught and tangled and such. Then there's force being applied by the hips or legs against the wall and this tangle, easily opening a knife. Weird stuff happens, I've seen it and been shocked, so I only use the small carabiner-lock knives and keep them in my pack or pocket on a biner so they cAn never accidentally open
For a climbing situation, I want the knife to have a positive lock on closed/safe position for both folders and fixed blades. Interacting with a carabiner works but there are also choices with built in locks that can be disengaged quickly by one hand. For small blades, I'm far more concerned for a loose blade around the ropes than being cut or stabbed with it.
The problem is a weak detent. The small pressed bearing suffers wear as it is used regularly. Some knives can come with a really strong detent making the knife difficult to open. Sometimes with standard deviation and worker fatigue a knife leaves the factory with a weak detent. There are some knife designs that make it very unlikely a knife would fully open. Such as knives that operate with a back spring and lock. (Back lock) The manufacturer Cold Steel has one of the strongest locks in the industry with it’s Triad lock. Knives with the triad lock have incredibly strong back springs making them very unlikely to swing open. In addition to the main lock. There are knives that have a secondary slide lock that prevents opening and closing until you move the slide switch. I would also consider hawkbill knives. They have a curved blade and tip, and are excellent rope cutters. As far as fixed blades you should really look towards Kydex sheaths. They are thermo form fitted to the blade and normally have a positive click in retention. Not allowing the knife to move. That is until deliberate removal. The thermoplastic sheaths that come with a lot of knives are easily deformed and sensitive to excessive heat or cold losing their ability to retain the knife as securely. You should also consider using a dual action OTF knife where legal. OTF means out the front, where the blade exits from the handle directly when pushing the switch forward. Then retracts back into the handle when moving the switch backwards. These knives allow one handed safe operation and keep your hand and fingers out of the path of the blade. They require force that makes an accidental deployment unlikely. It also has a built in feature that protects anything in front of the blade when deployed. By causing the blade to fail and "jump the track." Holding a piece of notebook paper in front of them is enough to stop its full deployment. The biggest OTF manufacturer is Microtech, but there are others. Some even produce OTF rescue knives, as well as hawkbilled Karambits with a finger ring on the back. There are many knives out there that could satisfy safety requirements off the shelf. There are also manufacturers who will produce a knife to meet the needs of your community in smaller runs than a big manufacturer. You could then sell your design in your store. Hope this helps.
After many years of rock and alpine climbing, I have taken to simply carrying a swiss army knife inside a pocket while climbing. The knife gets used for food prep more than anything else, and I will make sure it is handy when I am rappelling, and I do make sure it is a pocket I can access while hanging in my harness. I have seen several close calls with people dropping knives while climbing and finding their harness knife hanging from their harness open at various times climbing. I think you can lock Spatha down with a hair tie around it. If I really thought I was going to need to cut something in a hurry while climbing I would take trauma sheers instead of a knife, possibly with a rubber band around them. The trauma sheer handles take a carabiner pretty well. This would not be appropriate for operating in the water with a risk of entrapment though.
I have and love the trango blade that is similar to the crik one. Love that the caribiner keeps it closed and the seraded blade works great for cutting cord
I have a Petzl canton knife, I think as you mentioned, it is important to differentiate various use cases: canyoning, one is underwater or waterfall can't see and tangled with the rope versus a climber that may just want to cut a sling to make a rappel. fwiw the first thing I do with the knife is to very round the tip, no need to puncture any stuff, just cut a rope.
In fire service we use non-pointy knifes whenever we are working with ropes (or with humans in rescue situations). That would alreay help a bunch, but beyond that, a sheathed knife like the one you showed, but with a button on it's sheath to release it, that would probably be pretty safe
Edelrid knife has another problem, the safety mechanism that prevents it from closing can be damaged and the knife closes with slight pressure which, due to the characteristics of the edge and the shape that the knife takes, can produce a very deep cut on the index finger, or even on the thumb, this was my case, I ended up with the thumb divided in half almost 1 centimeter, and luckily it did not affect the bone so I only required stitches to join it
I carry a small disposable 2" folding (dull end) razor knife in my chalk bag zipper pouch. The blade is kept in place with a strip of climber's tape going around it. I don't know of any "Vertical Limit" split-second decision scenario where I'm gonna need to cut a rope while on the wall so my sister and I don't die.
There was that guy on the Eiger he got pinned by the rope in such a way, that as long as the rope was on him, he couldn't breath, but if he cut the rope his climbing partner would fall to his death. In reality I don't think that guy had a choice to whither to cut the rope, but the north face of the Eiger would make an awesome movie.
A couple of guides I know carry the Petzl knife on a krab but with a thick rubber band wrapped round the handle at the point end. Might be a piece of bike inner tube now I think about it.
I carry a petzl spatha knife when multi-pitching. Definitely concerned with how easily it opened the first few times I climbed with it. I've since put a half wrap of climbing tape around the tip to be safe. It'll still open quickly if I need it in a pinch but otherwise it feels pretty securely held closed.
This is exactly why I like fixed blades. No parts to wear and loosen, they can be securely lashed shut and many sheaths are available with either molle lashing points, extremely secure clips, or hard-mount points. My fixed blade is very tough to unsheath, and the sheath has a flip-up locking latch that ensure that it CANNOT be taken out.
A knife around ropes and webbing under load is a dangerous proposition!!! I’ve always taught my students that a 3mm cord attached to you belay device(to prevent loss) works as one of the best/safest ways to cut a rope or webbing in a pinch! My little Swiss Army knife gets used more for opening cans of chili and slicing cheese that Ever being needed in a climbing situation!
I have a friend who had the same thing happen to him, his Petzl knife opened once while he was climbing and since then what he did was cut a circle from a bicycle tube and put it on as if it were an elastic band so that it couldn't open on its own in any situation.
I use a Petzl Sparta for my knife and just keep it on my harness. I put a small piece of climbing tape around the blade so it doesn’t open. I rack it on a metolius bravo as the knife moves smoothly along all sides of it and it is a good size. - recommend putting these up in the store.
Simplest safe flip knife: Opinel with a biner loop. Bonus points if it has a spring loaded locking gate a-la double locker biner. You could even make it a tripple autolocker knife. The gate could either shut locked when the knife is open to prevent it closing on your fingers, and for the countries where that's illegal, the gate could remain open and the blade would be held in position as in a regular spring loaded blade. But the moment the blade is shut, the gate should snap to locked position.
I have ran into this problem not only climbing but kayaking as well.....the simple solution to keep the blade from opening is to wrap a rubber band around the knife once the blade is closed. There will always be some who will nit pick about how long it takes to open or secure it.......always take your time with everything in order to be safe. It is better to secure the blade either like this or use a holster.....I carry my knife in a pouch that is on my chalk bag.
I'm a caver and tend to use a Petzl Spatha while underground. I carry it around my neck on a breakaway cord along with a few other things but have a small piece of tape around the back of the blade to keep it closed. Although haven't had a problem with it opening, better safe than sorry.
I am a tree care professional and I will not carry an open blade or folding knife anywhere when I'm climbing. I have 100% gone to EMT shears, X-shears specifically. There is no need for a knife anywhere on a rope.
If you HAVE to have a knife, the trango one or CRKT NIAD are both designed similarly and will NOT open while racked. It's probably also a good idea to know how to cut rope/webbing without a knife and eliminate the need for sharp pointy things while attached to a rope(shoelace/bash with rock over an edge)
With folding knives, if you can knock the blade open or partially open, it means that the back spring is not strong enough, or it's not well designed. The curvature of the back of the blade where it engages the back spring it the key part. Starting with a shallow angle can increase the spring force.
I have an Opinel N°08 and it's a great cheap yard knife, but it's pretty much impossible to lock/unlock one-handed, even after working to loosen the virobloc ring.
Had a Petzl Spatha open on my harness, not while climbing but on the move between routes. It probably got opened by some twigs that brushed my harness and tangled som gear. To prevent this from happening i now use a velcro that Mystery Ranch have on their backpack straps. It fits perfect inside the cutout in the blade and around the handle.
Why not a sheathed folding knife? Like use the same knives if they already work good, just use some sort of hard plastic sheath that completely covers the knife, so there's just an extra level of safety without really any more difficulty to getthing the knife out. Could even make a clip of sorts where however you'd naturally grab it to un-sheath it is where the clip is. 2 extra safety features with minimal inconvenience
If you can get a “Buck Knives 0770 FlashPoint Folding Knife with Carabiner Clip” you have all your problems solved. It has a carabiner built in to hook into your harness loops, it is one handed and is very easy to unlock and open using your thumb and forefinger. The lock will not come undone accidentally. Great knife and good steel.
My issue with all these friction locks is that as they age the living mechanism should get looser and loose through the years. Edc knifes have a lock on top of the friction for which would be a no brainer. I'd be interested to see if the knife that opened on the climber was a few years old because the force he took from that whip should have been way less then slamming it on the table.
I used to be too much of knife geek. In the topic of knives, when people are talking about lock types, it almost always refers to the lock which engages to keep the blade open. It is very rare for it to refer to a lock keeping it closed... In most industries, the light spring tension or friction keeping it closed is totally sufficient... however, in climbing, we very much would benefit from a lock keeping it closed. The Trango Piranha is one of a few which have a lock mechanism to keep it closed, so its what I use. I distinctly chose it over the Petzl Spatha due to the difficulty opening it... That said, the Piranha has a very short blade, and I'd much prefer a longer more useful one. I'd really like the equivalent of a Benchmade Griptillian, but with some minimally intrusive lock to keep it closed... I really love the axis lock... but I don't know of a version of that designed to also lock to keep it closed. Its an interesting problem to solve. Ideally the knife remain easy to open one handed. Otherwise, keeping a knife snugly secure, like in a chalk bag pocket, is a good idea, and I prefer that more than keeping it on a carabiner on the harness anyways.
Another thing to keep in mind is that, as the knife ages and is opened and closed multiple times, it can and may very well get looser and open more easily. i only use the trango type knives and only on long climbs where i am pretty sure there will be old tat to remove or add
Im a bit of a pocket knife collector, but certainly no climber. One thing i can say with certainty is that any knife which isnt held under tension in the closed position can have this happen, it just depends how easily. If a knife cant be adjusted (pinned pivot for example) then over time it will loosen up. The knives on show here, when brand new are likely super safe enough, but if you're using them regularly (even light tasks like lunch, cutting cordage etc) they will get easier and easier to open which is what i imagine happened in the accident.
I have a foldable razorblades (derma safe knife) that I keep wrapped in a piece of climbing tape. I keep it in a pack, chalk bag pocket. In the past I had a razor blade taped inside my helmet liner. It doesn't take much to cut rope/webbing and I've only needed it a handful of times.
I use the trango shark nut tool instead of their knife; it doesn't have the same flaw since the carabiner goes thru the blade. I lanyard it to my harness thru one of the slots so it can't be dropped when taking off the carabiner. More bulky than the other knives, but the nut tool part comes in handy and makes a better handle.
We had the very same thing happen in the Canadian Rockies many many years ago. Some one was rapping off an Ice climb and the Petzl Knife opened and stabed him in the Bottom when he lost his footing and swag around. I carry the BUCK REDPOINT Knife since it locks CLOSED AND Open. I'm shocked that its still an issue to this day... (head smash)
immediate thoughts are knives and sheaths that lock closed instead of just having a detent, but some additional factors to consider: - detents, locks, and sheaths can become easier to open/operate with wear - some locking systems may just be designed for "doesn't open in pocket" peace of mind, dangling around on something else potentially with other gear is a very different scenario - locks that stay open on their own rather than having to be continuously held open might come undone with just the right (or wrong, as the case may be) smack knife testing would be fascinating but also an absolute *hole*
Could always use either a rubber band or similar to secure the knife closed as well. There is also the option of using a "Ranger Band" which is just a piece of bicycle inner tube cut to the desired width over the knife. Obviously the best option is a knife that locks in the closed position.
I noticed you have a CRKT offering. You may also want to consider selling the CRKT Dogfish with the combo edge. It's a neck knife, and the kydex sheath is pretty secure. It also has a hole in the butt that you could use to attach a lanyard if you liked. Obvs, KE = (1/2)mv2 so a light knife is less likely to be subject to enough force to dislodge or open it. The only thing I might suggest is a quick sand of the handle with 80 grit, and some hockey tape. The plain metal can make gripping it tricky if conditions are lousy. For the record, I'm not affiliated in any way with CRKT, but I like their stuff, and the interactions I've had with their customer service have been top-notch.
I use an opinel knife with a hole drilled in the end for paracord. This knife has a twist lock for the blade and locks the blade closed. Also when I rack I'm wrapping the paracord leash around the handle so the lock would have to twist open and the leash wrap would have to come undone for it to open.
i climb with a Myerchin knife, locking blade and marlin spike, g10 handle and steel wire loop for the carabiner. it's a sailing knife, but it's great for any sport involving loaded rope, and wet uncomfortable situations. i have the half serrated and half straight blade.
Been losing diferent knifes while Canyoning/ white water activities. But while swimming through rapids. Also knifes which was in sleeves and super hard to pull out. The one I have now has a bubble on the end and cannot stab, but is super sharp and cuts 👌
I work in rope access and carry a Spatha on an am’d carabine and I keep masking tape wrapped twice around the blade/handle because I saw it work itself slightly open once. No idea how, but I keep it taped ever since.
I’m not a climber in a welder but I would highly recommend the 15$ Milwaukee (48-22-1520) folding knife it has a lanyard loop and belt clip but more importantly it has a button that prevents the blade from opening until it is depressed it still has a standard locking lever to keep it open
I do whitewater kayaking and I have the Edelrid. It could be attached outside the PFD but I don't trust the locking mechanism so I put it inside the pocket. Luckily in 20+ years of kayaking never had to use the knife for serious emergencies
I use a Byrd Hawksbill on a bit of string for lighter climbing, but a Wolf tools fixed blade knife in a secure sheath for long days in the harness! (Working at height/ rope access/ arborist not climbing!)
Tree climber, I have the petzl knife, its attached to my harness with some through line and stored in one of the gear loops so secure and no way of opening but easy to pull out if needed. However different activities use different harnesses. Like my rock climbing harness. No way of storing a knife the same way as my tree harness.
It is worth noting that the pivot of a folding knife can loosen over time, which would make that accidental opening 'party trick' more likely. On brands with a retainer screw the pivot can be tightened periodically. The "ESEE Knives Imlay Rescue Knife" is the kind I use - it has a very large opening for a carabineer, a sheath with multiple holes for a retaining cord, a blunt tip so it can't easily stab you during an accident, and the sheath is secured tightly to the knife with a rubber retaining strap. It feels very safe to me, and I haven't had an accident with it yet! 🤞😄
It would be great if Petzl made a Spatha variation with a blunt tip like the NRS Co-Pilot. I use both for climbing/canyoneering and whitewater respectively, and I really have never needed the pointed tip in canyons or crags, just my 2 cents. Could just modify one of mine to blunt…
It may be worth looking into bringing something like trauma / EMS Shears to replace an EDC knife. I used to EDC a knife all the time, so I understand most individuals balk at replacing a knife with scissors, especially if they are EDC nerds, and I understand the attachment to your tooltype. However I invested in a pair of $40 X-Shears and it took me all of a month to realize that not only did the trauma shears meet all the needs I had that a knife did, 9/10 times it did better than the knife with less effort. Rubber, leather, webbing, rope, wire, etc, I have yet to meet something I couldn't get through with them and I have cut through a penny with them before as a demonstrative test of their ability. But the big advantage to these over a knife is you have a much more blunt tip that will take significantly more effort to puncture you, and the fingerloops allow you to easily clip a carabiner into them. The two brands I trust most readily would be the X-Shears for a more budget option, or if you want to be extra sure you won't be poked, the Raptor Rescue's from Leatherman fold so the fingerloops cover the cutting area. I have seen them both cut through a penny and still be sharp enough to cut through tough fabrics.
I literally just bought a climbing knife yesterday and I was contemplating this myself, and thought that I'd leave the knife with my second who never leads. I guess that's not always a solution for swinging leads or guides or other people who don't have a single regular belaytionship.
I’m a climber, and I learned on MP to tape a razor blade to the inside of my helmet. It kinda sounds dumb, but with some tape over the sharp end of the blade and the whole thing under tape, seems like a safe, light weight, low cost solution to me 🤷🏼♂️ and I have one less thing on my harness. I was surprised that I hadn’t seen anyone else suggest this so thought I’d share
Quick fix: add a rubber band, make tight, easy to slide off in case of emergency but adds a lock to the system that would be unlikely to come off I think.
I use the buck 750 redpoint knife w/ me when climbing for this reason specifically. it has a lock to lock the blade closed (and open), so it doesn't open up accidentally.
I personally don't climb often, but something similar when diving. I have a knife that has a very small latch where your thumb would grip the handle when pulling the knife out of its sheath. Personally, I've seen many different knives with different mechanics to open them (pull hard, press a button, flip, etc) and this method by far is my favorite. Once you push the small latch down, the knife easily pulls out of its sheath and is rather quick to do too
Wire gate and extra friendly knife, use a cable wire tie ( the velcro kind) fixed through the small hole. Put some gaffers the around the tip sothat it has a small pull tab . I've had to cut my shirt off working on a diesel truck back of the shirt got hung up on a bolt with my right arm up to my shoulder reaching up to get a bolt started, couldn't back out the way I came in. Point is most often the dominant hand is what is stuck in a rope needing cut or holding on . Be able to reach, open and use the knife goofyfoot 1 handed. Practice on the ground. Note the tab on the tip of the velcro fills the 1 handed operation.
I put a twist-tie in the string hole and wrap it around the blade while it’s folded so that it’s impossible for it to open unless I really mean to. But that’s also just dry scenarios… where drowning is a worry I use the NRS pilot knife
I mean, it depends what you would need it for right. If you just need it to cut the rope in a pinch one of those seat belt cutters would be best. And maybe have a more versatile knife with some velcro around it somewhere more safe (like in a backpack)
I own the Petzl Spatha and have been thinking about it for a bit but have yet to actually act on it. I figured a 2-3” piece of skinny bicycle tire inner tube would fit snug around the closed knife. I haven’t tried it yet.
I love how you pull out your CRKT Niad (same one I carry) to show a good knife, which is unfortunately long discontinued and NOT AVAILABLE. If there's an equivalent I'd love to know about it because I only own the one.
I have the Trango Piranha specifically because it can not be opened while installed on a carabiner, ie on my harness. Yes its small but perfect for cutting webbing when needed.
Definitely some knives available with a secondary safety lock. SOG makes a few, so does Kershaw. I have a Kershaw Leek with a little sliding safety, but that is more because it's assisted.
Thanks for this video, I own the knife but was only using it as a light hiking knife so far. The slit in the handle seems perfectly designed to fit an elastic strap to prevent this issue, maybe they did consider it, but dropped the feature later on? I'll sew a strap on mine and evaluate the remaining risk, otherwise I'll put it in a pouch from now on.
How often do you guys use a knive while climbing? I get it with V-Threads and Ice climbing, but other than that? FWIW i just keep a Keychain-Victorinox in my first aid kit, which is on my harness when i do multipitches. And even that is more often used to cut salami, take out splinters with the tweezers than for cutting something while climbing.
Petzl spatha is good enough. Easy to clip and unclip. Can be opened with a single hand; holding the axis with 2 fingers while pushing the handle tip against the rock. I've never seen it self opening. But if self opening is an issue to someone, Opinel knifes maybe a good alternative. You can drill a hole for a string on its wooden handle. The blade is secured by simple a twist ring. You will probably need to hands to open it.
I’ve carried some type of knife on me for about 40 years now. I climb for working in trees to maintain trails and as an EMT I carried a bench made hook with it’s nice big loop . I carry that into trees cause it’ll cut any of my rigging lines but not my safety line ( steel cable inside) . Put a finger in the loop and pull, can’t really drop it with my finger stuffed in there. Only downside is not as useful as a more standard blade.
i just keep my leatherman in the belt pouch, on my belt, between two gear loops. The belt hook on the leatehrman has a hole, and i attached it to the leash clip on my nut-tool with a thread, through the eye. Its a bit heavy for an emergency knife, but its an edc and the other tools on it are useful anyway.
Sorry to hear that happened. :/ Best thing is likely a knife that also locks when closed. I know some knives like the Opinels do (but they are a pain in the ass to use imo and when the wood handles get wet, the wood swells and it's almost impossible to open it then. They can become very stiff very easily too), but I will leave that to the knife people. ^^ I would be curious what you think of the Opinel outdoor knives though, since they seem to have a plastic handle with the same lock. Like the Opinel 8, 9 or 12 Outdoor(?)
Next time you do a breaker test on ropes or carabiner, you should add a knife to the setup on an extra carabiner and see if the recoil action flips them open. Just be careful. I do tape my knife shut with a loop of eletrical tape.
Viewer just said this knife locks in the open and closed position amzn.to/3FAOWUf
Thanks Ryan! 🔪
Something you might want to look into: Spyderco Snap-it. After having one knife stripped out of a pocket, it's what I use now.
As someone who has many knives and enjoys using them for everything i can find an excuse to, and who only recently got into climbing, my first though when i saw the knife shown in this video was "why doesn't it lock closed?"
Glad you posted at least 1 alternative!
Look at box cutters that have more safety mechanisms. On many folding box cutters the button will lock it closed as well as open, and some retractable box cutters will pull the blade back if you let go. Sounds like someone needs to make a lightweight version with a carabiner size hole in the handle.
And here I was just about to complain that there are knives with closed locking switches.
Also, I kinda hate the idea of a knife being attached by the pivot? Probably dumb and doesn't matter though.
A little cloth sleeve or a sheath will entirely prevent this either way, add draw strings and straps until your personal level of paranoia is satisfied.
I was lead belaying my wife when her harness worked her EDC knife out of her pocket. She had simply forgotten take it out of her pocket, and doesn’t normally take it climbing. I swear to you, when it bounced off the rock on the way toward me, it opened up and started cartwheeling. Fell RIGHT past me and impaled itself in the ground.
We had an honest conversation about if she was trying to cash in on my life insurance that night.
Holy Moly!
Get a locking knife with a pull pin and that won't happen.
There is really no reason to make this video.
Everyone is using the wrong type of locking knife.
@@taitsmith8521 ok expert rock climbing dude, I switched up my knife.
Something similar happened to me. I had my regular folding EDC knife in the pocket of my trousers (zipped, I think), which just worked open and the knife fell out, hit a rock (which opened it) and fell quite close to a friend of mine who was belaying me at the moment. Nothing happened and we had a laugh about it, but I sure don't carry a knife that way anymore when I climb..
Same thing happened to me with a friend!
As a sailor, who has a similar requirement for a knife as a safety device, I'd recommend non-pointy knives to prevent stabing yourself, or others, in the kind of stressful situation where you might really need the knife in a hurry.
100% this! The point is just not required
This seems so obvious. You don't cut rope with the tip anyways
Commented a similar thing. Whitewater knives also have no pointy part. There's plenty but the NRS copilot is a fine one. Scuba knives also have the same deal
My chalk bag has a little zipper pocket, I just keep my knife in there. Or I just leave one in my pack.
Good point! I’ve used Spatha knives for years as a mast and tower rigger. It hangs on a wire quickdraw at my side and I’ve found that it has come open on numerous occasions.
Like similar knives, they’re cheap, and easily available, so no tears if they get lost or damaged. The serrated portion of the blade is equally great for cutting rope and bread rolls, but the as others say, the point is not really that useful.
The easy solution for me seems to be to simply square off the point with a grinder.
Thanks for highlighting this and great discussion.
As a tallship rigger and sailor we have to carry and climb with our knives all the time in some dicey conditions. Our main knife is always blunt tipped and fixed has been for centuries. Sometimes we'll carry a pointed folding knife but its always got a lock on it. We carry it all in regular usually home made leather sheath. The knife is only a hazard if unsheathed. When aloft we tie lanyards to them. If they were to fall out of the sheath they would fall away from us and be caught on a 4 foot lanyard instead of being strapped to our body. This configuration has been evolved over centuries.
As a millwright who’s moving around a lot I was worried of a flip knife opening on me so I used a knife that requires a button to be press so that the knife can open. Also a knife will wear in and become easier to open so I think that could be a factor in this case.
*"a knife will wear in and become easier to open"*
I was thinking of this as he used brand new knives to test. Of course all he had were the new knives for testing. I think the various knives would open easier when used a bit.
Thanks for another interesting video HowNOT2.
What you may not realize, is that some knives, after they've been carried around for a year or two, collect dirt in the mechanism...and become more difficult to open. I have a couple of knives like that...and the only ones that seem to have loosened any were really cheap knives, which weren't very tight to start with. I saw a couple videos about how Canada is cracking down on knives...and that's where I really first heard much said about knives getting easier to open as they wear. Makes me think the problem is a design/manufacturing issue, rather than being a normal issue with folding knives in general. I've been collecting knives for over fifty years, so I've seen a knife or two.
Truth is, there are more junk knives out there than quality knives...but most people aren't good at selecting knives, and end up with junk. You can't judge the quality by the price, either.
Push button is definitely a option. I use a Milwaukee fastback at work and the push button is nice.
Apparently nobody knows about the original locking knives.
If you can find a locking knife from the 1800's you will see that the mechanism they use is a pull ring. Downside is that one handed openings take a significant amount of skill compared to any other method. But the locking mechanism will never fail. Far superior to anything today, but plan on using both hands to open it for a while.
I would assume there are reproductions out there, but I have never looked around for them.
I'm for the button/ slide( prefer slide) locking but not on an assisted opening ,the ones that have a spring loaded blade and the button is a trigger to release not lock. I've had them pop in my pocket cutting its way out, fortunately not me thoe.
BLUNT TIPS. Whitewater companies figured this out a while ago (like the NRS Co-pilot). The canyoneering knife also looks like it got it mostly right. The goal is for cutting textiles (namely rope) should the need arrise. A point on a knife helps little with this goal
As a first responder, in swift water rescue we lash the handle of our fix blade knife to the sheath with one or two wraps of dental floss for basically the same reason. It keeps it in the hard plastic sheath so it’s there when you need it. If you need it you are going to break the dental floss. Cheap, easy, fix with a product we all have/ waterproof and minty fresh too, ;)
I carry a benchmade rescue hook. It can cut things in a pinch but cannot stab. far less bulk, no carabiner needed
It’s an amazing little tool. I carried one in the service, and overseas. They will cut through the heavy ratchet straps like butter.
Can that actually cut a climbing rope?
@@brendandordepending on diameter and material the big one will, and benchmade says they will take them back to re-sharpen … i wonder how many times it will cut climbing rope on the first stroke though! i try to only rely on it to do once, in worst case
When I worked as a rescue paramedic I carried a Gerber Vital Zip to cut rope and webbing. It uses standard utility knife blades. I would touch up new blades with a fine stone, and if I trashed the blade it was easy to replace. It went through seatbelts and 1/2 static rope in one easy stroke. All of my other rope and water rescue knives also had blunt tips. I could slash the crap out of something with them, but they only stabbed as well as a paint stir stick
Same thought, I'm not expecting to be cutting my rope...often. @@JWeeems
A couple months ago I started putting a small piece of tape around the blade and handle securing my knife shut, so that it does not open accidentally. Saw a guide in the Tetons do this and thought it was a good idea. I personally do not use my knife that often, so a little piece of tape that I need to take off if I were to need it is not a big deal, and worth the extra "hassle."
A small diving knife with a fixed blade is the best utility knife you can carry. Square tip with a locking sheath. BTW, you seem to be recovering well. I'd never be able to tell.
Where do you store it? On your calf like the old school dive knives, in a pouch, on a belt?
Scrolling to see if someone brought up dive knife. Agreed.
That’s cause he wasn’t the one who got stabbed he said it was his friend
@@jimmywalden1615 he had a stroke like 2 weeks ago
i follow your channel bc my rope safety interest is primarily shibari/rope suspension and for that reason i’ve thought a lot about cutting ropes with one hand in one go. I used to carry trauma shears with a lightsaber belt clip dovetail hook (seems to cut up to 6mm rope with ease). Due to getting thicker ropes than that I switched to the Benchmade rescue j-hook with the full handle and it is truly the best tool i’ve found for 10mm rope. Also has the skeleton handle that can have paracord wrapped in it.
On the other hand, replaceable blade rescue hooks can snap the blade under lateral force. I also have an Opinel and like that it is light and can lock both ways but it is not a single handed tool. Similar to that, there is an old Paul Presto knife also made by Lone Wolf Knives that is single handed and locks both closed and open via a button in the swivel hub, but the handle is the portion that swivels and havent seen any with an eyelet, just a pocket clip. Some of the paratrooper safety knives may suffice for cutting thick ropes but I’d test them out to be sure they work with things bigger than paracord and keep them sharpened. A lot of them go in a scabbard for the harness or ankle but they were harder for me to find than Benchmade turned out to be.
thanks for posting! i love your content, especially the test bench! it has had me wondering how a Somerville bowline matches up to the strength of rope tied in a figure-8 or square knot since i first tuned in to HowNOT2
🖖
As a traditional sailor climbing the rig on tall ships I always have to have a big knife with me in a sheath on the center back of the harness. and as per tradition it does not have a sharp tip (sheeps foot point) this makes sure you at least can't stab yourself i Think this is the safest option.
in the test you did it was a new knife, if he had a slightly older knife this might have caused it to become a bit looser in the hinge and more likely to open. i always like to keep my knives in some sort of a sheath just to prevent exactly this.
Testing with brand new knives = the result shown. Okay. When I carried a Spatha, once it got into "used" condition from canyoning (ie, 2 trips), I found it partly open hanging on my harness a couple times and stopped using it.
This was also my experience. Swapped to the Edelrid canyon. Can be kept as it is for aquatic canyons or use a weak ziptie for more safety in other situations. The only risk is cutting your leg or arm while pulling it out.
Same. After a few canyoneering trips that blade was just flopping around
The Edelrid canyon knife comes of all the time when the sheath starts wearing out a bit, luckily its not pointy so it doesn't really stab you easily. Stopped using it in favor of a crkt bearclaw rescue which cuts rope better but of which the sheath also gets arguably more loose over time, however you can then throw in a spacer ring on the stud holding it in to get it tight again. Then stopped using that in favor of a Leatherman Raptor folded open in its sheath as it easily cuts a weighted rope and more easily cuts an unweighted rope than a knife and is more accurate and less "swinging around knifes" in stressfull situations.
love love love the CRKT bearclaw, it's an excellent river rescue knife for whitewater kayaking and rafting. Such a shame CRKT seems to have discontinued it
Drill a small hole on the sheath, close to the knife's finger hole, then run a very small zip tie through that hole and the finger hole. To take the knife out you have to not only overcome the sheath resistance but also break the zip tie. I have used this set-up for a long time now in wet canyons, no problems. Carry a couple of extra zip ties in case you need to secure the knife again after use.
I put a wrap of adhesive tape around my very small folding knife. I very very rarely use it so the extra step to open isn't really something I worry about.
I have put climbing tape around my knives for years. Feels super safe enough :)
@@HowNOT2 but then isnt it just easyer to go with something simple like an Opinel? ... it's among the lightest knives out there, locks open and closed, its dirt cheap, you can modify it to go one handed if you like to.
and there is an Outdoor version aswell, even with glow in the dark.
i have a size 15 as my cooking knive in my van, and a Nr8 in my MTB backback, a Nr 7, and a nr9 with bottle opener, and had a 8 Olive wood
... honestly... Nr 8 and the cheaper the better... left about two or three at airport security because i forgott, but you just don't mind really
Finally a subject I know a lot about lol. As a knife guy my suggestion for ppl worried about folding knives like these opening accidentally would be to use a small thick rubber band.
I'd put it around the blade and handle towards the tip of the knife which would keep it close but still allow to you quickly be able to remove the rubber band and open the knife.
Knifesmith here.
Personally I wouldnt even keep a slip-joint knife loose in my pocket when Im NOT climbing, unless its something like a Swiss Army knife.
There are a myriad of quick release but LOCKING retention systems for fixed blade and folding knives. Choose one of those.
Any knife or retention system that works solely on friction will inevitably fail under the right conditions. Any knife with a thumbstud will inevitably open in your pocket due to keys etc.
You want your knife held securely in a holster, or sheath, which only opens when a trigger or latch is activated.
A perfect example of this kind of sheath is the modern KABAR plastic sheath, or the Finnish M95 Fiskers rubber wheel system.
Neither sheath will release the knife under traumatic force, but both allow immediate one-handed release with a bit of practise.
Not suggesting you take a knife this large, just using them as an example of exemplary sheath design.
People climb ice with all sort of spikey things attached to them. I guess it matters how paranoid you are.
@@elmeradams8781 and how much you enjoy stabbing yourself in the testicle?
I'm super glad you put this out in the world Ryan. Like other people in the comments are saying, I like knives that are locked until you unlock them. I think that combined with a similar thing to the blunt-tipped fixed blades that prople are mentioning would be a good solution. I have a box knife from millwaukee that is locked with a button, I just use it for tuning skis mostly, but I like the safety that the design offers.
Most scuba divers carry a knife or line/rope cutter of some sort for similar safety reasons, and they vary greatly in terms of design and safety. Many of the designs I prefer have a "blunt" squared-off prying tip and are only sharp on the sides; these still provide a sharp edge and more utility/flexibility than the line cutters (which can't cut anything thicker than a certain diameter) but substantially reduce the chance of a puncture if they somehow get loose or slip.
Interesting. I'd personally just use a button release/axis lock knife that is locked in BOTH the closed and open position unless you press/activate the lock button/switch - easily opened and closed with 1 hand. And I would use one of those retracting tool tether/lanyards that way you never have to attach it to a carabiner and have no chance of dropping it. Also I like the one you showed that has a sheath, not necessarily for the sheath but for the blade design - a round blunted safety tip is perfect for climbing when it is only meant for cutting rope and has less chance of impaling you (though it certainly still would if you were unlucky, a blade is a blade).
I wouldn't use a sheathed knife for climbing though, as the sheath and knife could fall off of its attachment point or the knife could come out of the sheath with enough force - especially in a dynamic climbing situation where pushes/pulls happen often on gear and clothing. But that is why I like this channel, TEST your gear before it teaches you why it was a bad choice.
(I am not a climber, but I like knives and love your gear testing videos).
My daily carry / utility knife is a SOG that has the lock open / lock closed. It’s not what I use for climbing and after seeing this video I think it reinforces the value in that type of feature for this use case, where the knife could see forces much higher than they were intended for.
Only other methods of solving this problem might be using a heavy duty rubber band around it to prevent it from coming open, but that seems like it’s got its own flaws.
Weird shit happens climbing. There's often a lot of different diameter gear swingin around and stuff getting caught and tangled and such. Then there's force being applied by the hips or legs against the wall and this tangle, easily opening a knife. Weird stuff happens, I've seen it and been shocked, so I only use the small carabiner-lock knives and keep them in my pack or pocket on a biner so they cAn never accidentally open
For a climbing situation, I want the knife to have a positive lock on closed/safe position for both folders and fixed blades. Interacting with a carabiner works but there are also choices with built in locks that can be disengaged quickly by one hand. For small blades, I'm far more concerned for a loose blade around the ropes than being cut or stabbed with it.
The problem is a weak detent. The small pressed bearing suffers wear as it is used regularly. Some knives can come with a really strong detent making the knife difficult to open. Sometimes with standard deviation and worker fatigue a knife leaves the factory with a weak detent. There are some knife designs that make it very unlikely a knife would fully open. Such as knives that operate with a back spring and lock. (Back lock) The manufacturer Cold Steel has one of the strongest locks in the industry with it’s Triad lock. Knives with the triad lock have incredibly strong back springs making them very unlikely to swing open. In addition to the main lock. There are knives that have a secondary slide lock that prevents opening and closing until you move the slide switch. I would also consider hawkbill knives. They have a curved blade and tip, and are excellent rope cutters. As far as fixed blades you should really look towards Kydex sheaths. They are thermo form fitted to the blade and normally have a positive click in retention. Not allowing the knife to move. That is until deliberate removal. The thermoplastic sheaths that come with a lot of knives are easily deformed and sensitive to excessive heat or cold losing their ability to retain the knife as securely.
You should also consider using a dual action OTF knife where legal. OTF means out the front, where the blade exits from the handle directly when pushing the switch forward. Then retracts back into the handle when moving the switch backwards. These knives allow one handed safe operation and keep your hand and fingers out of the path of the blade. They require force that makes an accidental deployment unlikely. It also has a built in feature that protects anything in front of the blade when deployed. By causing the blade to fail and "jump the track." Holding a piece of notebook paper in front of them is enough to stop its full deployment. The biggest OTF manufacturer is Microtech, but there are others. Some even produce OTF rescue knives, as well as hawkbilled Karambits with a finger ring on the back.
There are many knives out there that could satisfy safety requirements off the shelf. There are also manufacturers who will produce a knife to meet the needs of your community in smaller runs than a big manufacturer. You could then sell your design in your store. Hope this helps.
After many years of rock and alpine climbing, I have taken to simply carrying a swiss army knife inside a pocket while climbing. The knife gets used for food prep more than anything else, and I will make sure it is handy when I am rappelling, and I do make sure it is a pocket I can access while hanging in my harness. I have seen several close calls with people dropping knives while climbing and finding their harness knife hanging from their harness open at various times climbing. I think you can lock Spatha down with a hair tie around it. If I really thought I was going to need to cut something in a hurry while climbing I would take trauma sheers instead of a knife, possibly with a rubber band around them. The trauma sheer handles take a carabiner pretty well. This would not be appropriate for operating in the water with a risk of entrapment though.
Sounds a better choice.
How often do you need a knife whilst on a climb ?
Swiss army knife user, let's gooooo
Thumbs up from a Swiss person :D
I have and love the trango blade that is similar to the crik one. Love that the caribiner keeps it closed and the seraded blade works great for cutting cord
I have a Petzl canton knife, I think as you mentioned, it is important to differentiate various use cases: canyoning, one is underwater or waterfall can't see and tangled with the rope versus a climber that may just want to cut a sling to make a rappel.
fwiw the first thing I do with the knife is to very round the tip, no need to puncture any stuff, just cut a rope.
In fire service we use non-pointy knifes whenever we are working with ropes (or with humans in rescue situations). That would alreay help a bunch, but beyond that, a sheathed knife like the one you showed, but with a button on it's sheath to release it, that would probably be pretty safe
Edelrid knife has another problem, the safety mechanism that prevents it from closing can be damaged and the knife closes with slight pressure which, due to the characteristics of the edge and the shape that the knife takes, can produce a very deep cut on the index finger, or even on the thumb, this was my case, I ended up with the thumb divided in half almost 1 centimeter, and luckily it did not affect the bone so I only required stitches to join it
I carry a small disposable 2" folding (dull end) razor knife in my chalk bag zipper pouch. The blade is kept in place with a strip of climber's tape going around it. I don't know of any "Vertical Limit" split-second decision scenario where I'm gonna need to cut a rope while on the wall so my sister and I don't die.
There was that guy on the Eiger he got pinned by the rope in such a way, that as long as the rope was on him, he couldn't breath, but if he cut the rope his climbing partner would fall to his death.
In reality I don't think that guy had a choice to whither to cut the rope, but the north face of the Eiger would make an awesome movie.
Thanks as always for bringing it to our attention.
A couple of guides I know carry the Petzl knife on a krab but with a thick rubber band wrapped round the handle at the point end. Might be a piece of bike inner tube now I think about it.
I carry a petzl spatha knife when multi-pitching. Definitely concerned with how easily it opened the first few times I climbed with it. I've since put a half wrap of climbing tape around the tip to be safe. It'll still open quickly if I need it in a pinch but otherwise it feels pretty securely held closed.
I'd recommend one of the carabiner-lock knives like Trango makes.
This is exactly why I like fixed blades. No parts to wear and loosen, they can be securely lashed shut and many sheaths are available with either molle lashing points, extremely secure clips, or hard-mount points. My fixed blade is very tough to unsheath, and the sheath has a flip-up locking latch that ensure that it CANNOT be taken out.
A knife around ropes and webbing under load is a dangerous proposition!!! I’ve always taught my students that a 3mm cord attached to you belay device(to prevent loss) works as one of the best/safest ways to cut a rope or webbing in a pinch! My little Swiss Army knife gets used more for opening cans of chili and slicing cheese that Ever being needed in a climbing situation!
I have a friend who had the same thing happen to him, his Petzl knife opened once while he was climbing and since then what he did was cut a circle from a bicycle tube and put it on as if it were an elastic band so that it couldn't open on its own in any situation.
I use a Petzl Sparta for my knife and just keep it on my harness. I put a small piece of climbing tape around the blade so it doesn’t open. I rack it on a metolius bravo as the knife moves smoothly along all sides of it and it is a good size. - recommend putting these up in the store.
Simplest safe flip knife:
Opinel with a biner loop.
Bonus points if it has a spring loaded locking gate a-la double locker biner. You could even make it a tripple autolocker knife. The gate could either shut locked when the knife is open to prevent it closing on your fingers, and for the countries where that's illegal, the gate could remain open and the blade would be held in position as in a regular spring loaded blade. But the moment the blade is shut, the gate should snap to locked position.
Crazy ! I always wondered if I could get stabbed by my cleaning brush during a bad fall...
depends how well used that cleaning brush is and what type of rock...be safe. haha!
I have ran into this problem not only climbing but kayaking as well.....the simple solution to keep the blade from opening is to wrap a rubber band around the knife once the blade is closed. There will always be some who will nit pick about how long it takes to open or secure it.......always take your time with everything in order to be safe. It is better to secure the blade either like this or use a holster.....I carry my knife in a pouch that is on my chalk bag.
I'm a caver and tend to use a Petzl Spatha while underground. I carry it around my neck on a breakaway cord along with a few other things but have a small piece of tape around the back of the blade to keep it closed. Although haven't had a problem with it opening, better safe than sorry.
I am a tree care professional and I will not carry an open blade or folding knife anywhere when I'm climbing. I have 100% gone to EMT shears, X-shears specifically.
There is no need for a knife anywhere on a rope.
If you HAVE to have a knife, the trango one or CRKT NIAD are both designed similarly and will NOT open while racked. It's probably also a good idea to know how to cut rope/webbing without a knife and eliminate the need for sharp pointy things while attached to a rope(shoelace/bash with rock over an edge)
With folding knives, if you can knock the blade open or partially open, it means that the back spring is not strong enough, or it's not well designed. The curvature of the back of the blade where it engages the back spring it the key part. Starting with a shallow angle can increase the spring force.
This is so informative!!! Fantastic reporting!🌻🌼🐝
I like the one that couldn’t be opened when on your carabiner
I like Opinel locking system. It locks the blade both open or close.
Opinel's virobloc system is my favorite. I've had too many other systems open in pockets or packs at the worst time.
It's pretty good, but it can get jammed/be difficult to open with cold hands.
I use Opinel's Sailor knife. The only think that i dislike is, that the tip can look out of the grip when it's closed.
I have an Opinel N°08 and it's a great cheap yard knife, but it's pretty much impossible to lock/unlock one-handed, even after working to loosen the virobloc ring.
Had a Petzl Spatha open on my harness, not while climbing but on the move between routes. It probably got opened by some twigs that brushed my harness and tangled som gear.
To prevent this from happening i now use a velcro that Mystery Ranch have on their backpack straps. It fits perfect inside the cutout in the blade and around the handle.
ESSE makes a wonderful fixed blade Izula 2 which comes in a whitewater/outdoor adventure setup with a nice sheath, blunted tip and retention setup.
Why not a sheathed folding knife? Like use the same knives if they already work good, just use some sort of hard plastic sheath that completely covers the knife, so there's just an extra level of safety without really any more difficulty to getthing the knife out. Could even make a clip of sorts where however you'd naturally grab it to un-sheath it is where the clip is. 2 extra safety features with minimal inconvenience
If you can get a “Buck Knives 0770 FlashPoint Folding Knife with Carabiner Clip” you have all your problems solved. It has a carabiner built in to hook into your harness loops, it is one handed and is very easy to unlock and open using your thumb and forefinger. The lock will not come undone accidentally. Great knife and good steel.
My issue with all these friction locks is that as they age the living mechanism should get looser and loose through the years. Edc knifes have a lock on top of the friction for which would be a no brainer.
I'd be interested to see if the knife that opened on the climber was a few years old because the force he took from that whip should have been way less then slamming it on the table.
I used to be too much of knife geek. In the topic of knives, when people are talking about lock types, it almost always refers to the lock which engages to keep the blade open. It is very rare for it to refer to a lock keeping it closed... In most industries, the light spring tension or friction keeping it closed is totally sufficient... however, in climbing, we very much would benefit from a lock keeping it closed.
The Trango Piranha is one of a few which have a lock mechanism to keep it closed, so its what I use. I distinctly chose it over the Petzl Spatha due to the difficulty opening it... That said, the Piranha has a very short blade, and I'd much prefer a longer more useful one. I'd really like the equivalent of a Benchmade Griptillian, but with some minimally intrusive lock to keep it closed... I really love the axis lock... but I don't know of a version of that designed to also lock to keep it closed.
Its an interesting problem to solve. Ideally the knife remain easy to open one handed.
Otherwise, keeping a knife snugly secure, like in a chalk bag pocket, is a good idea, and I prefer that more than keeping it on a carabiner on the harness anyways.
Round or blunt-tipped knife was common on boats and ships. Reduces accidents, and intentional stabbing.
Another point is some of those types of knives, the ring for the carabiner is the knife blade, so if the carabiner jams and twists, it will open
Another thing to keep in mind is that, as the knife ages and is opened and closed multiple times, it can and may very well get looser and open more easily. i only use the trango type knives and only on long climbs where i am pretty sure there will be old tat to remove or add
I've dropped one of the Petzl on a steep slab... Ended up opening while tumbling down 😮 lucky no one was in its path...
Im a bit of a pocket knife collector, but certainly no climber. One thing i can say with certainty is that any knife which isnt held under tension in the closed position can have this happen, it just depends how easily. If a knife cant be adjusted (pinned pivot for example) then over time it will loosen up. The knives on show here, when brand new are likely super safe enough, but if you're using them regularly (even light tasks like lunch, cutting cordage etc) they will get easier and easier to open which is what i imagine happened in the accident.
I was going to suggest using snap fasteners like in skydiving rigs.
Then I remember that I've lost like three knives skydiving..
I have a foldable razorblades (derma safe knife) that I keep wrapped in a piece of climbing tape. I keep it in a pack, chalk bag pocket. In the past I had a razor blade taped inside my helmet liner. It doesn't take much to cut rope/webbing and I've only needed it a handful of times.
I use the trango shark nut tool instead of their knife; it doesn't have the same flaw since the carabiner goes thru the blade. I lanyard it to my harness thru one of the slots so it can't be dropped when taking off the carabiner. More bulky than the other knives, but the nut tool part comes in handy and makes a better handle.
We had the very same thing happen in the Canadian Rockies many many years ago. Some one was rapping off an Ice climb and the Petzl Knife opened and stabed him in the Bottom when he lost his footing and swag around.
I carry the BUCK REDPOINT Knife since it locks CLOSED AND Open.
I'm shocked that its still an issue to this day... (head smash)
Those knives for climbing got popular after cliff hanger. I had the French one that I bought on a whim, it didn't lock open or closed.
immediate thoughts are knives and sheaths that lock closed instead of just having a detent, but some additional factors to consider:
- detents, locks, and sheaths can become easier to open/operate with wear
- some locking systems may just be designed for "doesn't open in pocket" peace of mind, dangling around on something else potentially with other gear is a very different scenario
- locks that stay open on their own rather than having to be continuously held open might come undone with just the right (or wrong, as the case may be) smack
knife testing would be fascinating but also an absolute *hole*
Could always use either a rubber band or similar to secure the knife closed as well. There is also the option of using a "Ranger Band" which is just a piece of bicycle inner tube cut to the desired width over the knife. Obviously the best option is a knife that locks in the closed position.
I noticed you have a CRKT offering. You may also want to consider selling the CRKT Dogfish with the combo edge. It's a neck knife, and the kydex sheath is pretty secure. It also has a hole in the butt that you could use to attach a lanyard if you liked. Obvs, KE = (1/2)mv2 so a light knife is less likely to be subject to enough force to dislodge or open it. The only thing I might suggest is a quick sand of the handle with 80 grit, and some hockey tape. The plain metal can make gripping it tricky if conditions are lousy.
For the record, I'm not affiliated in any way with CRKT, but I like their stuff, and the interactions I've had with their customer service have been top-notch.
I use an opinel knife with a hole drilled in the end for paracord. This knife has a twist lock for the blade and locks the blade closed. Also when I rack I'm wrapping the paracord leash around the handle so the lock would have to twist open and the leash wrap would have to come undone for it to open.
i climb with a Myerchin knife, locking blade and marlin spike, g10 handle and steel wire loop for the carabiner. it's a sailing knife, but it's great for any sport involving loaded rope, and wet uncomfortable situations. i have the half serrated and half straight blade.
Been losing diferent knifes while Canyoning/ white water activities. But while swimming through rapids. Also knifes which was in sleeves and super hard to pull out.
The one I have now has a bubble on the end and cannot stab, but is super sharp and cuts 👌
I work in rope access and carry a Spatha on an am’d carabine and I keep masking tape wrapped twice around the blade/handle because I saw it work itself slightly open once. No idea how, but I keep it taped ever since.
I’m not a climber in a welder but I would highly recommend the 15$ Milwaukee (48-22-1520) folding knife it has a lanyard loop and belt clip but more importantly it has a button that prevents the blade from opening until it is depressed it still has a standard locking lever to keep it open
I do whitewater kayaking and I have the Edelrid. It could be attached outside the PFD but I don't trust the locking mechanism so I put it inside the pocket. Luckily in 20+ years of kayaking never had to use the knife for serious emergencies
I use a Byrd Hawksbill on a bit of string for lighter climbing, but a Wolf tools fixed blade knife in a secure sheath for long days in the harness! (Working at height/ rope access/ arborist not climbing!)
Tree climber, I have the petzl knife, its attached to my harness with some through line and stored in one of the gear loops so secure and no way of opening but easy to pull out if needed.
However different activities use different harnesses. Like my rock climbing harness. No way of storing a knife the same way as my tree harness.
It is worth noting that the pivot of a folding knife can loosen over time, which would make that accidental opening 'party trick' more likely. On brands with a retainer screw the pivot can be tightened periodically.
The "ESEE Knives Imlay Rescue Knife" is the kind I use - it has a very large opening for a carabineer, a sheath with multiple holes for a retaining cord, a blunt tip so it can't easily stab you during an accident, and the sheath is secured tightly to the knife with a rubber retaining strap. It feels very safe to me, and I haven't had an accident with it yet! 🤞😄
It would be great if Petzl made a Spatha variation with a blunt tip like the NRS Co-Pilot. I use both for climbing/canyoneering and whitewater respectively, and I really have never needed the pointed tip in canyons or crags, just my 2 cents. Could just modify one of mine to blunt…
modifying the spatha isn't a bad idea, at least take the point of it off.
It may be worth looking into bringing something like trauma / EMS Shears to replace an EDC knife. I used to EDC a knife all the time, so I understand most individuals balk at replacing a knife with scissors, especially if they are EDC nerds, and I understand the attachment to your tooltype. However I invested in a pair of $40 X-Shears and it took me all of a month to realize that not only did the trauma shears meet all the needs I had that a knife did, 9/10 times it did better than the knife with less effort. Rubber, leather, webbing, rope, wire, etc, I have yet to meet something I couldn't get through with them and I have cut through a penny with them before as a demonstrative test of their ability. But the big advantage to these over a knife is you have a much more blunt tip that will take significantly more effort to puncture you, and the fingerloops allow you to easily clip a carabiner into them. The two brands I trust most readily would be the X-Shears for a more budget option, or if you want to be extra sure you won't be poked, the Raptor Rescue's from Leatherman fold so the fingerloops cover the cutting area. I have seen them both cut through a penny and still be sharp enough to cut through tough fabrics.
6:00
Kinda like carabiners that lock vs non locking?....
Safety vs inconvenience
I literally just bought a climbing knife yesterday and I was contemplating this myself, and thought that I'd leave the knife with my second who never leads. I guess that's not always a solution for swinging leads or guides or other people who don't have a single regular belaytionship.
I like the Trango knives. Have used them a bunch but was never drowning when I needed ‘em.
I’m a climber, and I learned on MP to tape a razor blade to the inside of my helmet. It kinda sounds dumb, but with some tape over the sharp end of the blade and the whole thing under tape, seems like a safe, light weight, low cost solution to me 🤷🏼♂️ and I have one less thing on my harness. I was surprised that I hadn’t seen anyone else suggest this so thought I’d share
Quick fix: add a rubber band, make tight, easy to slide off in case of emergency but adds a lock to the system that would be unlikely to come off I think.
I use the buck 750 redpoint knife w/ me when climbing for this reason specifically. it has a lock to lock the blade closed (and open), so it doesn't open up accidentally.
I personally don't climb often, but something similar when diving. I have a knife that has a very small latch where your thumb would grip the handle when pulling the knife out of its sheath. Personally, I've seen many different knives with different mechanics to open them (pull hard, press a button, flip, etc) and this method by far is my favorite. Once you push the small latch down, the knife easily pulls out of its sheath and is rather quick to do too
Wire gate and extra friendly knife, use a cable wire tie ( the velcro kind) fixed through the small hole. Put some gaffers the around the tip sothat it has a small pull tab . I've had to cut my shirt off working on a diesel truck back of the shirt got hung up on a bolt with my right arm up to my shoulder reaching up to get a bolt started, couldn't back out the way I came in. Point is most often the dominant hand is what is stuck in a rope needing cut or holding on . Be able to reach, open and use the knife goofyfoot 1 handed. Practice on the ground.
Note the tab on the tip of the velcro fills the 1 handed operation.
I put a twist-tie in the string hole and wrap it around the blade while it’s folded so that it’s impossible for it to open unless I really mean to.
But that’s also just dry scenarios… where drowning is a worry I use the NRS pilot knife
I mean, it depends what you would need it for right. If you just need it to cut the rope in a pinch one of those seat belt cutters would be best. And maybe have a more versatile knife with some velcro around it somewhere more safe (like in a backpack)
I own the Petzl Spatha and have been thinking about it for a bit but have yet to actually act on it. I figured a 2-3” piece of skinny bicycle tire inner tube would fit snug around the closed knife. I haven’t tried it yet.
Spyderco Autonomy is used by helicopter rescue swimmers, blunt tip, automatic with a manual safety.
This was eyeopening.
Being a industrial cliber, I usually have my petzl k ife, in my chestpocket, tied to a loop.
On my helmet i have a rescue hook.
I love how you pull out your CRKT Niad (same one I carry) to show a good knife, which is unfortunately long discontinued and NOT AVAILABLE. If there's an equivalent I'd love to know about it because I only own the one.
I have the Trango Piranha specifically because it can not be opened while installed on a carabiner, ie on my harness. Yes its small but perfect for cutting webbing when needed.
Definitely some knives available with a secondary safety lock. SOG makes a few, so does Kershaw. I have a Kershaw Leek with a little sliding safety, but that is more because it's assisted.
Thanks for this video, I own the knife but was only using it as a light hiking knife so far. The slit in the handle seems perfectly designed to fit an elastic strap to prevent this issue, maybe they did consider it, but dropped the feature later on?
I'll sew a strap on mine and evaluate the remaining risk, otherwise I'll put it in a pouch from now on.
I think the knife locking when clipped to a carabiner is a no brainer, I'll take the extra safety that offers anytime over alternatives! Great PSA
Also cheers to a healthy recovery!
How often do you guys use a knive while climbing? I get it with V-Threads and Ice climbing, but other than that?
FWIW i just keep a Keychain-Victorinox in my first aid kit, which is on my harness when i do multipitches. And even that is more often used to cut salami, take out splinters with the tweezers than for cutting something while climbing.
Petzl spatha is good enough. Easy to clip and unclip. Can be opened with a single hand; holding the axis with 2 fingers while pushing the handle tip against the rock. I've never seen it self opening.
But if self opening is an issue to someone, Opinel knifes maybe a good alternative. You can drill a hole for a string on its wooden handle. The blade is secured by simple a twist ring. You will probably need to hands to open it.
I’ve carried some type of knife on me for about 40 years now. I climb for working in trees to maintain trails and as an EMT I carried a bench made hook with it’s nice big loop . I carry that into trees cause it’ll cut any of my rigging lines but not my safety line ( steel cable inside) . Put a finger in the loop and pull, can’t really drop it with my finger stuffed in there. Only downside is not as useful as a more standard blade.
i just keep my leatherman in the belt pouch, on my belt, between two gear loops. The belt hook on the leatehrman has a hole, and i attached it to the leash clip on my nut-tool with a thread, through the eye. Its a bit heavy for an emergency knife, but its an edc and the other tools on it are useful anyway.
Sorry to hear that happened. :/
Best thing is likely a knife that also locks when closed. I know some knives like the Opinels do (but they are a pain in the ass to use imo and when the wood handles get wet, the wood swells and it's almost impossible to open it then. They can become very stiff very easily too), but I will leave that to the knife people. ^^ I would be curious what you think of the Opinel outdoor knives though, since they seem to have a plastic handle with the same lock. Like the Opinel 8, 9 or 12 Outdoor(?)
I have a Leatherman Skeletool on my harness. Now I want to test if it can open on a hit.
Next time you do a breaker test on ropes or carabiner, you should add a knife to the setup on an extra carabiner and see if the recoil action flips them open. Just be careful. I do tape my knife shut with a loop of eletrical tape.