Greg Fleniken Case Analysis | The Body in Room 348
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- This video answers the question: Can I analyze the case of Greg Fleniken? Support Dr. Grande on Patreon: / drgrande
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Your job is autopsies... And you miss a gunshot wound.
That's a bad day at work right there.
I don't get it myself. Not finding a bullet in someone's heart??
Absolutely mind boggling! How could they have missed a gunshot wound!?!
I know, and in the cardiac area, yet! He must have had a really bad day, or needs new glasses.
Interesting case; like a good mystery
read, only brief and, unfortunately real.
RIP🕊🌹🕊 Mr. Fleniken
Maybe he was also drunk.
Medical examiners can miss all kinds of things, like spinal cord injury, but the missing bullets shocked me. Human nature is we find what we're looking for. Sometimes if we don't find that, we (people in general) don't find anything at all. This case is really sad.
I can't imagine how you are able to research, write, record, edit, render and upload these so quickly without compromising the quality of your content, but every single episode is just fantastic!
Quick question: why was Fleniken holding the cigarette in his left hand?
Maybe he is compromising the quality of the content. I wonder how good it would be if all he did was research and present the content?
He has math
@@shayjohnson5830 yea
@@benprastitis3341 I am not sure about the word fraud. Sincerity doesn’t mean you can’t like math. Love is more efficient than math and a higher calling
If it wasn't for his poor, grieving wife saying, "y'all are stupid and I refuse to accept it", then hiring a P.I. from her own pocket, she would never have a sense of closure and no justice would have been done.
Wrap it up sheriff, case's closed.
Just shows how lazy and incompetent the badge wearing clowns are, and their desire to 'solve' the crime so they don't have to do their job.
@@cementer7665 My brother is a police officer. There are legit cops and there are a population of bad ones. Same with teachers, the majority are legit, but the ones that make the news are those who are disgusting, sexual predictors. Same with foster care families, judges, any religion and on and on.
I hear what you are saying, I would beg to differ to make a blanket statement about ANY one group, but I would agree that within the police realm at this moment, there needs to be more checks and balances.
Good conversation, fellow Grande fan. :)
@@cementer7665 Cops probably solve tons of complex cases competently and they get no credit for it except "yeah they were doing their job". Reactionary sheep on internet watch a video about a bad investigation and they start making blanket statements and gross generalisations. The same hypocritical geniuses later write shit like "stereotypes are bad" on their social media for points.
@@KruezFam you are absolutely right. And it's a funny thing that I've found that - and I'm not necessarily talking about @Cementer here - that some of the people who rant and rave about people being hopeless when you look at their own performance in their jobs you find a lot to be desired as well. Easy to point the finger, but look at how many are pointed back at you.
Look forward to Todd Grande everyday! ❤
Daily dose
Same! 👍👍
Me too!
Yes. He is THE BEST!
What an interesting dialogue!
My favorite part, aside from the scientific analysis, is that subtle sarcasm every now and then 😆
And the plants
@@silverbullett6684 absolutely
It’s so beautifully subtle. 👏🏼 lol
@@benprastitis3341 ....and yet, still watching his videos and leaving negative comments.....analyze this!
@@benprastitis3341 actually ? how do you know this ?!
I always like to see how the plants change positions in the background.
😆🌱
This was unbelievable. How many things had to line up in such a negative and precise way for this man to get shot the way, (and the where,) he did? 🤔 I don't know how you come up with these great topics every day. You're spoiling us, Dr. Grande. But we all love it!!! Thanks! 😘
Kind of a grim thought, but I'd be curious to know what percentage of people would react the exact same way Lance did and just pretend it never happened. As much as it pains me to admit, I think the number would be a lot higher than many people would prefer to assume.
Same thing happened in a motel in Raleigh, NC. A boy was staying with his family at the hotel because he was in a soccer tournament. Next door, a petty criminal accidently discharged his gun and the bullet hit the boy while he was sleeping, killing the boy.
@@mrsmucha And did this wholesome, honorable criminal take a few seconds out of his day to call police and let them know he could have potentially just shot someone? Or did he lay low like a coward and help corroborate my unfortunate theory?
@@Strype13 your 'unfortunate theory' is something also analysed/ dissected by Dr Jordan Peterson when he posited the same concept to his students , in regard to Nazi death guards & their collaborators.. that in fact..it is more than likely..that we would do the same to save our own lives ..
The adage applies here too...
There but for the grace of God , go I.
Checking the next room potentially could have save Fleniken’s life
Just a reminder I'm not diagnosing anybody, only speculating what could be happening in hotel room 348.
You never know when your time is up. Be kind and let the people you love know that you love them and make the most of today, because tomorrow isn't gaureenteed.❤
"Hey, go get my whiskey and my gun." How 'bout no?
It's texas man. That's a typical Tuesday night around here 🤣🤣
How terrible. As you said, “he was minding his own business;” he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and got killed😰 I feel terrible for him and his family🙏🏼
Ok. I’m just never staying in a hotel again, bulletproof room or not. And I don’t even have a scrotum. Great video Dr Grande.
The best part of my day is the pause between "description" and "for this video." Pure bliss. Thanks Dr. G!
lmaooo
I hope the wife sued the killer/other men and made him pay for the private investigator's fees!
It was the cops and ME's job! They failed egregiously.
@@Somegirl811 Absolutely, they both failed her and the victim. :/
@@KruezFam I think wrongful death suits are usually more for people that got off easy or weren't charged before the statute of limitations. I feel like, for an accident, 10 yrs is enough. But the fact that the police and ME both missed bullet holes is so weird. They're supposed to find needle holes let alone bullet holes. But at least they admitted their mistakes I guess.
@@Somegirl811 I don't disagree. You can't really sue the P.D. or the M.E. so I would hope the person responsible for the death pay for legal fees and the P.I. fees. It's just insulting that this woman had to pay to find out what happened. And YES, the agencies at hand failed both the victim and his family :(
@@Somegirl811 Wrongful deaths can be filed when law enforcement fail. It can help the family obtain evidence that police won’t share otherwise.
"Whiskey & A Pistol", sounds like a Lynyrd Skynyrd song.
No, Tori Amos. Lynyrd Skynyrd would call it Guns ‘n Whiskey.
@@jackiegrice714 They played Gimme Back My Bullets in the last Allman Brothers tour
@@jackiegrice714 YESSSS one of the endless EPs that came out between "Little Earthquakes" and "Under the Pink".
Indeed.
I remember watching the story of how Brennan solved this case, and also another case Brennan solved about "The lady in the suitcase" a serious assault that happened in a hotel, both fascinating but very sad. I like this Private Investigator, he thinks outside the box and criminals are caught.
I've heard this story before from another RUclipsr who talks about the dark and mysterious in story format. He doesn't analyze the situation or persons involved as you do and that's the part I always look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for another great video, Dr Grande.
Mr.Ballen? 🙂
@@JustDr.S Ask the like button out on a date to a really expensive restaurant, go to the bathroom and then leave without it knowing so that it has to pay the bill. 😎
@@Whoa_Lisa lol. You should write that in the comment section. It sounds exactly like what he writes!! 🤣🤣🤣
Yes, I too recognized the story from MrBallen- dark & mysterious. It's cool to listen and get another perspective.
@@emmonstrex65 Yeah, he's a great story teller. 'That Chapter' is a great channel, too. All crime. Another great story teller. If you like MrBallen and Dr. Grande, you'll probably like That Chapter, too. ❤
I'm from Lumberton, and I remember when this happened. You found a lot more details than were ever reported locally. Interesting case.
Tell us, if you don't mind. I don't think it is accidante and I am curious.
Thank you
It's Beaumont forensics. Of course they missed it.
@@thinkingmoment From what I can remember of the reports on broadcast media, the case was not mentioned until it was known that Fleniken died from a gunshot wound, so it must have been after some amount of investigation. When it was reported, the story was that Fleniken had been shot through the wall of his motel room, accidentally, and the person who'd done it was being pursued out of state for arrest. There are sometimes follow-ups with these kind of cases here, but the only other thing I can remember is when the man who fired the gun (can't remember his name) was sentenced. There was never a suggestion of this being anything other than an accident, though "accident" doesn't really fit if you ask me, which you did. There are a really ridiculous number of cases around this area where people are hurt or killed while "playing with" guns. Most people who own guns know better. Others you can't fix.
@@beaksalot Thank you. This is upsetting not knowing what and why is happening.
My routine after work:
1. Clock out
2. Start up my car
3. Put on my earbuds
4. Tune in to Dr. Grande's case study of the day on my drive home.
Thank you Dr Grande for making my drive home enjoyable and helping me decompress with your videos and sense of humor 👍🏼👍🏼
May I suggest, please do not wear earbuds or earphones while driving (this is coming from a good place and I mean you well).
I listen to Dr Grande while driving to and from work as well).
What are the odds a stray bullet would travel through a wall and hit an innocent victim directly in the heart. Wow! Poor guy. Well, another great video, Dr. Grande! 💖👍👍
Grande's life lessons at the end are a gift. Michael Landon was good at this too. No condescension. Just human to human.
What an unusual case. It’s just very sad to think that Fleniken lost his life due to someone else’s recklessness. His senseless death must have caused tremendous pain to his loved ones. Just tragic.
Thank you for the analysis Dr. Grande!❤️
FYI, my notification bell (for your videos) hasn’t been working for a few days and it’s unclear to me why, on my end I haven’t changed anything.
I will find your videos anyways but thought you should know.
I sure wouldn’t want to stay in a motel room with 2 chalk outlines. One, maybe, never 2.
That Grande dry sense of humour🤔🤗😱
🤣🤣🤣🇬🇧
Before I rent a motel room, I always INSIST on having at least 1 chalk outline of a person and 1 chalk outline of a dog
The people he covers makes me feel totally normal 🤪
Yep!🙃🤗
Okay I am not alone!
Facts!
💙🙏💙 YUP... glad 2 B normal also 💙🙏💙🙋♀️💙🙏💙 more or less 🦋🌸🦋🦄
@T R right ? 😂😂😂
I’m a born and raised Beaumont girl. Can’t say I’m surprised that they missed so many massive clues. 👀
@Grace Fregia Beaumont is a nice town with good veterans affairs, but I have no love for their forensics.
@@angelahamon6730 I love my town for sure. A lot of people move away and have nothing good to say, but I have met the most genuine people there out of almost every where else I have lived in Texas. However, there is clearly some corruption going on there from the BISD to Becky Ames. 👀 my mom actually applied for a forensics position with the sheriffs department. She is overly qualified with over 30 years working in the lab at a hospital, and she never heard from them. We think it’s age discrimination.
@@gracefregia1741 I am very sorry that happened to your mother. They could certainly use someone conscientious. They've released personal effects to the suspect, missed spinal cord injuries, failed to read years of medical records, and in this case Dr Grande sees the gentleman had a bullet hole in his atrium! They can be very slow in returning the remains. These delays don't help the police. It makes me wonder about toxicology reports. Are they ever inaccurate or switched?
The motel I worked at had a sign that said, "PLEASE DON'T LEAVE DEAD HOOKERS IN OUR BATHROOMS"
Interesting topic today, particularly "How people form beliefs, on both sides." I'd like to hear more on that subject. Also, the subject of accountability.
If I ever stay in a hotel room in the U.S.A. again, I will upgrade to bulletproof room if they have one available.
I'm in Canada and can't FATHOM USA gun culture. A home better have three/four layers of drywall AND metal shield plating if you have my neighbours in Canada. One of them with a 45?? uh, No.
Or ask for the optional bullet proof vest.
Yeah, I don’t think we have bulletproof hotel rooms. Unless you’re a dignitary
well good luck ~ it's damn near impossible to find 1 these days if you're looking for bulletproof rooms AND a heated indoor pool
Its good that you point out Apple's open mindedness here. I just watched the Gone Girl case you did the other day where the cops minds were closed faster and harder than Fort Knox so its nice to see an officer that genuinely wants to solve the crime and is willing accept outside input when he is stuck. Its kind of reassuring to know that not all cops are Kenny Park and that there are actually good ones out there who are interested in solving the crime rather than clutching their egos and refusing to budge.
I can always count on Dr. Grande to have a fresh video. Thanks 😊
Dr Grande, are you a sorcereror a wizard! How do you shell out such quality content so fast?? (researching, critically analyzing, recording and editing...are NO joke)!!!!
Grande has the BEST speaking voice, I want him to teach me everything :D
Thanks for a really solid handling of this case. You highlighted the critical factors: the mixing of alcohol, stupid behavior and a gun. Why would three men drink and bring in a pistol to the room other than to be motivated by the kind of carelessness associated with driving under the influence. The sentence reflects this culpability. While the other two men escaped sanction their lives have been darkened especially by their behavior following the incident. The near definite corruption of the police and coroner/medical examiner speaks for itself. The first look by the police and their failure to examine the environment properly speaks for itself and set the case off in the wrong direction. Who believes that the police did not see a bullet hole in the wall? Question where did the information that Fleniken felt a blow to his head before falling dead come from? Looking through the comments answers that question: there are many 'believers' out there.
My notification bells not working again ! But that won't stop me finding you Dr Grande. :-)
Mine is not working either..
@@rejaneoliveira5019 We know Dr Grande never lets us down, so were on the lookout, lol.
@@maureeningleston1501 That’s so true.🙂
@@benprastitis3341 ?
@@benprastitis3341 Eh!!!!
Always request the best view and the bullet proof room!
What would we all do without your brilliant analysis and fantastic dry humor!
Dr. Grande, you always deliver!!! 😄😄😄
Hi Dr Grande, I have been watching your videos lately, I am very impressed by the content you are providing. Being a master student who studied their degree in psychology and now doing counseling and psychotherapy, I found myself constantly orientations towards an expert position being therapist center than client centre. I really struggle on being more curious and I am finding myself not as helpful on my first placement. It would be great if you can do a specific topic on curiosity for counsellors, I am learning a lot about narrative therapy, but I am struggling with being curious🤣🤣🤣 that’s ironic.
Makes one question how many “cause(s) of death” are inaccurate. We are typically left making up truths and conclusions based on Police and medical examiners expertise. Thankfully the wife followed thru with the PI.
Thank you for your critique.
Great timing! I would love to see you doing a video on Johnny Cash. ❤
That would be amazing ❤️
Do I see Hector and Achilles on the floor? They deserve their own shelf! :)
They are on the bottom shelf, not the floor
Lower shelf
Awww they are on the lower shelf of the table.
Talk about having bad luck and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. (wrong place, right time??) Poor guy.
"One chalk outline on the floor"
I literally laughed out loud!
Never heard of this one! Thank you dr grande ☺️
That medical examiner is clearly not your "employee of the month" sort.
But man, having a gun discharge in one room, go through a wall and hit the occupant of that room in the heart is some incredibly crazy bad luck for both the perpetrator and the victim.
Good day Dr.Grande.Thank you for you are always here to make our day inspiring.God bless🌵💜
Just like that, a man dies for no reason. 🤔 Really, really sad!
I remember this story from a couple years back on investigation discovery, what a trippy case.
The oddest part in this story to me is that rooms 348 and 349 were on the same side of the hall. Most hotels, in my experience, have the even numbered rooms on one side of the hallway, and the odd numbered rooms on the other, in which case these rooms would be across from each other. But this is just my experience, yours may differ.
Yes. What's up with that? Surely Dr. Grande would have noticed and said something sarcastic (I love his dry witt!). I might go look up that case again. I have seen a good vid about this, so his version was right-on point. The room numbers are baffling.
Ooooh, looking sharp in the pinstripes!
The coroner, “Oops, I missed that”.
Another excellent analysis without diagnosing anyone Dr. Grande!
The Crazy Eddie Antar story is well worth looking into. Your viewers wil find it very interesting. l
Love your content a lot!
From now on, I'm getting a smoke free and bullet proof room when I stay at Holiday Inn Express.
I'm surprised that they didn't say he died of smoking long term. I've heard of that happening.
Please cover Charlie Chaplin, a comic genius & interesting personality.
Please read Leta Grey's autobiography about her marriage to Charle Chaplin. Very interesting!
This one made me sad. Poor guy.
moved into a end unit in a triplex 6 years ago. didnt notice the bullets stuck in a wall of the master (not my room). but the ghosts were out of control. following me to the bathroom etc. rain in the kitchen. finally i asked the owner if someone died in the house. he said "not in the house" and nodded toward the garage where a policeman hat hunt on the wall and the auto door always got stuck. nice
Why was there no blood? How could the gunshot wound be so easily missed by investigators and the medical examiner?
Gunshot wounds can be very small, especially when they are a small caliber and don’t exit the body. There may not be any blood near the entry hole. The fact that the medical examiner didn’t autopsy the heart when natural causes were suspected was just negligence. Doctors get lazy too.
A gunshot wound went unnoticed?🤔
1400-1445 Insightful, balanced, structured, and just. Another solid analysis. A clear view of the victim compared to a perpetrator. My daily visits to your neat brilliant mind is my happy place. ☀️
14:00 to 14:45 takes me right. There...
Hello Dr Grande, it would be interesting to see an analyst on Dyatlov pass. Keep it up!
Really interesting analysis of a very unusual case, especially to British people like me regarding the gun in the car and then the hotel. Thank you Dr G 🙏
Excellent analysis as usual.
Thank you for all of your hard work!!
In my home town, there’s was a shooting, nobody was hurt, long story short, it was a domestic violence incident. When cops came out eye witness said a gun was used. They searched the home, nothing was found, no gun no shells.
After crime investigators left, I walked through my sister’s house, just looking at the blood splatter left behind. I’m a crime enthusiast btw, so i moved curtains and what do you know, a gun shell on the living room floor. 🤦🏻♀️ good job crime unit
Dr. Grande your channel is ASMR for me! Love it!
Can you plz cover The Boy in the Chimney case? And also grow some bitchen mitten chops? That’s all I ask.
Scrotal region is notoriously "sensitive". Would have to be a serious masochist to self inflict that injury. That alone aught to've warranted further investigation.
Saw this on Mr. Ballen channel. Highly highly reccomend it. Once you start, you can't stop. This story is brought to life by him!!
"He experienced something that felt like a violent blow." I replayed a few times as I was confused and thought maybe if I kept listening I'd find our that he came back to life and explained what he felt. Just strange wording. Am I alone...or does this just fall into speculation?
Yes.. I was wondering how it was known that he experienced something that felt like a violent blow, if he died soon after?
I believe Dr. G was using that language because he is summarizing the movie... added dramatic effect?
I am puzzled as well. My guess is that since the victim was not found in bed, Dr. Grande assumes he was awake after being shot.
I find it strange that there was no blood. Is that due to no exit wound?
This case was featured on a forensic programme. The ending is a real twist.
Dr Todd Grande I don’t mean to alarm you but your shirt choice is on FIRE today
I think that the fact that the man who shot Mr. Fleniken did not show remorse should have been considered as a reason to give him a harsher prison sentence. From what I have studied, people who don't show empathy for others who have been injured or killed by them tend to be more likely to re-offend when (and if) they are released from prison.
12:37
A Series of Unlikely Events
The Case of the Body in Room 348
By Dr. T Grande
I think I remember reading these books
Note to self, request the bulletproof room. Thanks Dr Grande!
Please do a video on actress Frances Farmer.
I’m not convinced they just missed a bullet wound. Something in the buttermilk isn’t mixing.
I agree. And what about the blood from the bullet wound ... or lack of blood?
@Rikki B it's Beaumont. They're horrible at forensics. I mean there's a lot of complaints about them. It's a nice town, though.
@@vaslle7038 Again, it's Beaumont. They miss big things like bullet wounds, broken necks, and they receive autopsy orders from multiple counties. They might be overwhelmed. There was no blood from the entry wound on the scrotum, and we see the bullet stopped in the heart and so didn't create an obvious exit wound.
I lived in a house where people were shooting in a field on an abandoned farm nearby. We did not know this at first and came home to a bullet hole in our window and it went into a pillow in the couch. It was terrifying. We then found out that our neighbors were also finding similar situations. That is when the police discovered the people doing target practice on the farm next door to the community. It’s shocking that they didn’t manage to kill or maim anyone!
If you have room in your line-up, it'd be amazing to hear your thoughts on Rick Singer, the 2019 college admissions bribery scandal, and all the fifty-three parents accused.
This is so baffling. If only the walls could talk. Clearly the friends were buffoons, but murder?
If there is a motive, it had to be money. Thank you Dr. Grande.
The blunt force trauma thing makes sense to me because, at a minimum, there was a dry wall board on the wall of both adjoining rooms, which could have changed a bullet's trajectory and slowed it down. If it had ricocheted off of a stud or perhaps even just those two dry wall boards, it might still be traveling at a lethal velocity but deformed enough to appear to be a death by blunt force trauma.
I like to shoot guns just as much as anyone else who has gone target practicing with them before but, just as we draw the line at it not being okay to drink and drive, we should draw the same line or a higher one for drinking and shooting. Shooting ain't fishing, people.
Now there are definitely people who might say I'm an alcoholic but I do make sure that, if I'm going to drive, I don't drink. I don't think it should be any harder to not drink and mess with your guns. It's one thing if you're in your own house and someone breaks in when you happen to be drink but this was a hotel so the gun should have been left in the car for a more sober time for both tools.
I don’t remember the exact year, probably 1993-1998, in Vancouver, WA. A fellow had purchased a new gun and was familiarizing himself with it. He accidentally discharged the weapon. It went through his wall, and through another house’s wall, killing a woman sitting in bed reading a book. I am trying to remember if the husband heard a sound and went to investigate, or just headed to bed to find his wife dead. Just a terrible, improbable tragedy, which could have been avoided if correct gun safety had been observed.
Interesting!
I’d love your take on Sweden’s “Resignation Syndrome”!
Your videos rock Doc!
Dr Grande, your channel is my favorite, but I am officially afraid of ....everything🤔👍
Is it possible Dr. Grande is taking the long view toward ensuring his employment by purposely creating anxiety in all of us?
I'm just kidding of course. I think Dr. Grande works hard to not sensationalize things.
Great video Dr.Grande! Thank you!
Good morning Dr Grande, a reasonably new sub watching from Queensland Australia
I always request a bullet proof room when traveling.
Glad to see you in my home today Dr Grande. Very relieved to see the little plant has been moved from the brink of disaster 🇬🇧
I completely disagree with Dr. Todd's extra-long sentencing criteria. That's exactly the reason why people don't call an ambulance when they suspect they might have accidentally caused an injury like that.
Sad case.Thanks again for the great video analysis Dr. Grande.
One of the first steps in a post mortem is to exam the body externally which includes X.Raying it- bullet should’ve been noted on radiographic film.
Do an analysis on why mostly women tend to watch true crime/ analysis videos. And why they always seem to drink coffee while watching no matter the time of day. It would be interesting.
Well there's an old joke about women who are "cleaners" for criminals being prepared because we have practice cleaning blood. Another joke is women must be paying attention because more men get arrested for really violent crime.
@@angelahamon6730 lol the blood joke lmao
Interesting as always, thank you.
I'm sorry Doctor, but when you reference a lacerated testicle early in the video, you *must* return to it before the video's over!
I was just about to comment on the same thing. Guess he forgot!
6:45 - Smh. Just imagine how differently things could've turned out if that guy that ran to the truck to grab the whiskey and then gun - had forgot to bring back the gun.
8:09 - I agree. You'd think combing the scene would've been done better. It was a hotel room. Not very big. The space was minimal.
They should have never missed a bullet hole! Especially one covered up with toothpaste of all things.
In my opinion, that should have been found.
Smh. Im just happy the family and friends finally saw justice served. It just should've came wayyy sooner. 😔
One weird thing i read about this case was= many of the detectives eventually came to the conclusion that the victim thought he was having a heart attack- he never realized he had been shot.They came to this conclusion by recreating the victims movements after he had been shot.
I have an interesting take away from this story. At one point, Dr Grande mentions the door between two hotel rooms sometimes used when a family or group rent two hotel rooms together.
This door is sometimes called a communicating door. I learned this while being a member of our local community theater, and played a role in Alan Ayckbourn's play titled Communicating Doors. It was a weird tale of a prostitute that travels through time each time she passes through the communicating door. As strange as it sounds, it is a heartwarming story that ends much happier than the above video
If you shoot a gun and kill someone inside a hotel room it can't be considered an accident, a gun was used without any context in a place that is expected to have many people around.
Unfortunately drunks armed with guns is an extremely common occurrence in Texas 🤔 we’re plagued with morons! Love from Houston
I had just watched the account of this case on MrBallen's RUclips channel; very unique.
Ohhhhh thanks for the info, I'm heading there next!
@@pxxxbxxx1981 True, but he's such a great story teller. Keeps you glued to the screen. Maybe because he's a bit hyper. Dr. Grande is more 'in depth' with his analysis. And he chooses great subjects.
Quantifying the possibilities of someone's demise based on one or many direct or indirect occurrences would be an interesting study.