Do Refrigerators Need to be Protected by GFCI? 2023 NEC 210.8(A)
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- Опубликовано: 2 мар 2024
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I'm glad that the NEC has finally addressed the appalling loss of life from malfunctioning refrigerators, freezers, and sump pumps with grounding electrical cords.
LOL!
A classic case of good by overkill. Originally GFCIs were put in bathrooms and near sinks that addressed real issues of people being electrocuted by mixing water and electricity. That was good, so let's find other areas to add. After years of code updates now pretty much everything must be GFCI, not factoring in situations that have no measurable benefit but have downside risks for mission critical uses. The best option is to pressure state and local codes to bring in some sanity. Many of the added locations that now require GFCI, not to mention the dreaded arc fault protection, regardless of risks, pile on additional costs, complexity, and future maintence issues for questionable benefits. A case of a good solution in search of a problem to solve, and many times creating problems where none before existed.
Thanks Russell!
If the NEC thinks I'm going to put my fridge or my sump pump on a GFI, they've got another think coming.
new commercial sump pumps are on GFCI
I understand!
I am guessing this will be a point of contention in the Electrical Trade for years to come! Thanks for sharing, Russ 29 years in the Electrical Trade.
Hi Russ! You can just read the comments of this video and see that it is definitely a point of contention. Thanks for your hard work in the trade.
Many jurisdictions amended the NEC and gave a big NO to a refrigerator on a GFI . Too many BS trips and too much spoiled food $$$
I would certainly not put a standard breaker in place of my GFI as soon as i passed inspection 😅
Nuisance tripping is the worst....
Remember guys, there is a clause in the Nec, stating that the NEC is not necessarily going to have rules that are always practical. As an Electrician you must install what the NEC says, if your jurisdiction has adopted the 2023 NEC and there are no exceptions to cover your situation. As a Homeowner, you can do what you want, just be advised, you may effect your Homeowners insurance.IMO
Well said. I understand.
I wonder how much influence the manufacturers of afci’s and gfci’s have on the code making panel’s decisions🤔🤔🤔
I used to live in Stone Mountain , GA. On the edge of the bowl that formed the mountain, 3:43 and had lighting strike the ground on a fairly regular basis. Came home back home one time and one of the few things not fried was the refrigerator in the garage on a gfci that tripped. Also all our utilities were ran under ground.
Good story, thanks!
You lucked out in this case, but GFCI isn't designed for overvoltage surge protection. To address this risk a surge suppressor system or even use of a single point Leviton combined outlet and surge suppressor would be a path to take. The Levinton surge/outlet combo, which is UL listed for this purpose, is a good choice for an appliance that is mission critical - I have one for my refrigerator outlet (a 20 amp version as it's on a 20 amp circuit). If the surge is so powerful that it fries the triacs the outlet continues to provide power, just without surge suppression - effectively converting it into a standard outlet. In that case the surge suppressor did it's job and sacrified itself (a $30 part) to save my $1,000 refrigerator and keeps the power on afterwards.
I too have had a couple GFCIs protect appliances / devices when I lost the neutral at the street. Also lost several surge protectors. I am not depending on GFCIs for surge protection - but they worked for that.
Thanks for the response Sparky. What I ended up doing was putting a new commercial grade receptacle behind the fridge in the garage. Since it's the first outlet in the circuit, I had to place the CGFI receptacle in the next or 2nd outlet in the series, which is a hallway bathroom. From the bathroom to the next 6 receptacles, they are all CGFI protected (not the fridge though).
Sounds good to me. Good question!
I like it. Nothing obeying "the code".
No, the electrical inspector once failed me because I accidentally put a GFCI receptacle behind the refrigerator. He said that the GFCI will not be accessible to reset if it’s behind the refrigerator. So, never, Ever put a GFCI behind a refrigerator. If it’s within six feet of water, you must use a GFCI circuit breaker.
Hi Mike! What year was that and what state? I'm not disagreeing with you as this national code is subject to being amended by state and other jurisdictions. Also, you could protect the fridge with a GFCI circuit breaker or with an upstream GFCI receptacle which is accessible.
So the inspector doesn't think someone can move a fridge?
code does not allow the gfci reset to be behind an appliance
@@saulgoodman2018 Our inspector doesn't think someone should move a microwave oven or large pot coffee brewer out of the way to access the GFCI. Reason given is that they need to be tested monthly and appliances in the way would make that less likely.
I just use GFCI breakers. Easy does it.
Sparky, I recently did a reno on our 1985 kitchen and upgraded all receptacles, the wiring to the disposal (now GFCI) and on-demand water heater (now GFCI). All Appliances were replaced (2023) . The fridge is on the same circuit as the other counter top outlets. I installed a GFCI and had a tripping issue for the circuit that drove me crazy until I found this on page 4 of the Frigidaire Use and Care manual for the fridge "Avoid connecting the unit to a GFCI circuit"! No, I won't be installing a GFCI to the fridge, but did put it on it's own breaker.
Thanks for all the great videos! I was able to safely bring my old property up to code and upgrade the receptacles and switches safely.
Congrats on the remodel!
Wow, very interesting on the Frigidaire Use and Care manual saying don't use the GFCI protection on their fridge. That is opposite of the NEC code. Isn't that crazy? I think we should be able to run refrigerators and freezers without GFCI but as a licensed electrical contractor, I have to follow the code. Thanks!
@@SparkyChannel Nothing in the NEC says "refrigerators" have to be on GFCI. The language says "kitchens" and "garages". (and 210.8(D) closes the "hard wiring" loophole.) I can remotely see the logic here (potentially wet places), but really, how many people have been shocked from vending machines? (I would say how many houses have burned due to the fridge, but that's a measurable number, but usually not from electrical faults - compressors lock up and set stuff on fire.)
Manufacturer instructions supersede the code
@@michaeldidomenico6312 And a**hole inspectors supersede everything.
In response to your closing question, I do think it is crazy that a refrigerator needs to be protected by GFCI. I do not believe there is any common sense used when making this decision. No one has asked the question what happens if the GFCI trips and the home owner has to pull their fridge out to reset it? What if the GFCI fails completely? I've had that happen with the Sq D brand of 15A GFCIs a lot in the last year. Now you could say, well just put the GFCI at the breaker. Ok, so if it trips the home owner needs to go to the garage, basement, or outside to reset? What about if they go on vacation and trips while they are away?
Great points. That's why states like Oregon don't go along with this.
the gfci reset is not allowed to be behind the appliance.
@@wim0104I agree: having to move the appliance to push the reset button is not the definition of readily accessible.
I would go on the grounds that a refrigerator is an appliance and it's not listed under (D).
A microwave and dishwasher are listed under (D), so if they wanted a refrigerator to be GFCI protected, it would also be under (D). 👍
The fridge/freezer circuits being dedicated (20 amp) is the most logical and skip the gfci. If you do use one, get the kind with the alarm that goes off until power is restored.
Sounds like I need a lot more GFCI's around here!
Great video Bill, my response is long winded, and i hope you read what i wrote.
I disagree with a GFCI receptacle being required for a refrigerator. Most receptacles for refrigerators are located behind the refrigerator. The 2017 NEC (Michigan is still on the 2017 code cycle, scheduled to adopt the 2023 on March 12th 2024 completely skipping the 2020 code cycle) 210.8 states:
Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel shall be provided as required in 210.8(A) through (E). The ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be installed in a readily accessible location.
The definition of readily accessible (still the same in 2023 NEC) is: Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to take actions such as to use tools (other than keys), to climb over or under, to remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.
I don't know about all refrigerators but i had to remove a front cover on ours to raise the leveling screws to allow the refrigerator to roll out.
Put a regular receptacle behind the fridge frf from the load side of a GFI receptacle that is in an easily accessible location, like above the counter top. You can even get a dead front gfi if you don't want one that appliances can plug into. And you can get gfi receptacles that will alarm if they trip
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
My pleasure, thanks!
Not confusing at all. GFI's cause trips because of transients and cost a lot of money in food. Europe 's gifi 's are 10 ma. They work. Im putting a freezer in my attached garage. Going to be on a single circuit and single receptacle no gfi. The manufacturer does not recommend the GFIC .
Hi Mr. Bill! My fridge is GFCI protected, as is my microwave, dishwasher, air fryer, coffee maker, toaster... actually everything in my house is GFCI protected.
Thanks Dave!
+1 I've been swapping the first outlet on every branch with audible alarm GFCIs - no stone unturned!
@@Ariccio123I like that idea... would allow me to figure out where it is too.
@@marcfruchtman9473 yup. Especially helpful for the non-savvy people in the house - can't ignore an alarm!
OK, so please educate us on what to do if appliances such as garbage disposals, dishwashers, microwaves, and dishwashers frequently cause GFCI receptacles to trip?
Love your videos. Keep up the good work.
The recent AF/GF of the past year have ben very reliable with zero nuisance tripping on our projects, though we run a dedicated circuit for the fridge and micro if there were to be an issue.
Dedicated circuits for the fridge and micro are a great idea.
Great to hear about zero nuisance!
Microwaves are designed to send voltage straight to ground when there is a door switch failure so having it on a GFI is almost a must.
My home is wired such that I'm able to plug the refrigerator and the microwave into two separate 20 amp appliance circuits, allowing me to split the loads. While that setup has worked without issues for over 20 years, if I had my druthers I would at least have the refrigerator outlet on a dedicated circuit, gosh that just makes sense for that type of appliance. The panel has plenty of avaiable slots for another circuit, but that would have cost the builder a couple $ to pull another cable so they didn't, and the NEC code (unfortunatly) does permit refrigerators to be on an appliance circuit. I can't help but believe that the builders lobby influenced that to save money.
Bill, well done, my friend!
Thanks for the help, Don! Any thoughts on garages that have above grade floors needing or not needing GFCI protection?
@@SparkyChannel The article reads: "210.8(A)(2) Garages and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use". I interpret that as saying both structures mentioned, require GFCI protection of receptacles only if located with floors at GRADE LEVEL. If built above grade, with a non grounded floor, do not require the prescribed protection.
Thanks! That's the way I read it as well. Not everyone is going to agree of course.@@donl1410
@@SparkyChannel 👍
I once had an inspector tell me when getting sign off as a homeowner, off the record he said, I would not GFCI a refrigerator or freezer. I made some changes after he left. Technically, not code I have a couple of outlets in the garage not GFCI, but at least behind things, and all the others are protected. I probably should have labeled, but didn’t bother. This was 15yrs ago on a 1980 house where I changed the mains and replaced all switches and outlets.
I understand, thanks!
Hey Bill, if the garage is above grade level still need gfci protection, for refrigerator or wherever you want to plug in in that garage.
OK, please explain 210.8(A)(2). It's at 1:14 It seems to me that they are saying that garages with above grade floors don't need GFCI protection. Thanks!
@@SparkyChannel it’s a little confusing, to me the code is talking about accessory building at or below grade level, but you could be right, because say “garage and …….
210.8(A) starts with, "All 125-volt through 250-volt receptacles..." Does that include 120-volt receptacles? Mine usually run 118 or 119, so that would seem to be under 125.
I'd give protect per inspection and then change it out on my own house. For customers I'd always build per code. If they change it after I leave that's on them.
Thank you sir
Welcome!
Most refrigerator receptacles are not readily accessible. I don’t see the need for the requirement. I think they’re running amuck. I think Texas and Georgia reviewed and reversed the GFCI requirements for Outdoor AC Compressors because of the danger to people from a nuisance trip was greater than the risk of electrical shock.
The problem with GFCI protecting the fridge is that as they age, a lot of fridges have wires that degrade and when the defrost melts the ice off of the coils, water drips onto them and causes a gfci to trip. As of the 2020 NEC (im in NJ), in kitchens it is only required to provide GFCI protection for the receptacles serving the countertops, and receptacles within 6 feet of a sink, so i can get away with AFCI protecting the circuit and throwing a GFCI receptacle downstream from the fridge. But when they adopted the 2020 NEC, new jersey got rid of their amendment that allowed a single receptacle in place of a GFCI for fix appliances in locations requiring GFCI protection. That was sweet for fridges in garages and sump pumps and stuff like that.
Thanks for the info about NJ. The NEC handbook talks about new refrigerators not having that problem. But not everyone has new refrigerators.
@@SparkyChannel I do 95% old work residential here in NJ. I almost never see new appliances unless I renovate a kitchen. Tons of plaster and lath, knob and tube or cloth covered ungrounded wiring, federal pacific and pushmatic panels, plus decades of hack electricians putting bandaids on gaping wounds, and customers wonder why I refuse to provide them service sometimes, or why my quotes are as high as they are. Its better to lose a job than it is to get into litigation 😁
all outlets in garage, evening the ceiling receptacle for garage door opener, must be GFCI, according to my interpretation
What if the garage is above grade?
@@SparkyChannel same deal. There's no distinction
@@SparkyChannel I told you, it's a debate. 😄
Yes, it sure is. :)@@donl1410
We do dedicated circuits for refer and freezer
No GFI no AFI no issues. If an inspector fails us because they are being ricks we just leave a standard breaker behind.
Dedicated circuits for freezer and fridge are a great idea. Less chance of problems.
I have seen that very often. Inspector leaves and the standard breakers go back in the box and the AF / GFCI breaker is left for the home owner to do as the wish
When we bought our house(built in 1979) the sellers did not agree to an inspection, I now know why, there are multiple issues regarding electrical, such as no dedicated microwave circuit, a wobbly home job garage outlet, a ceiling light in the garage that was smashed by someone who installed the garage door opener, and finally a sloppy junction box I found recently that has no cover plate, no cable clamps and exposed conductors! I have my work cut out for me. Luckily I have gained confidence by watching your and other YT’s videos that explain in great detail. Thanks again Bill for everything 👍
Congratulations on your new house! Yep, you do have your work cut out for you!
I'd never buy a house without an inspection. ESPECIALLY if the seller doesn't want one done.
Use an audible alarm gfci outlet when you worried about the fridge or sump pump shutting off on you. If you are on vacation then you better have someone check on the house. they have them at home depot etc. my link was deleted :(
Good tip, thanks!
+1 audible alarm GFCIs
If you are looking for hospital grade 5-20r audible alarm GFCIs, I'm sorry, they've been out of stock for several months nationwide because I bought all of them 🤣🤣🤣
I wouldn’t put it on a gfi receptacle being that they need to be readily accessible and they are almost always behind the fridge I would think a gfi breaker on a dedicated.
Thanks!
The GFCI can be anywhere _in the circuit_ - even at the breaker. As per long standing NEC language, it cannot be _behind_ the appliance as that's is very much "not accessible". (it's the same reason the GFCI for a garage opener can't be on the roof.)
Remodeled kitchen a couple of years ago had the breaker trip twice , the instructions on the new refrigerator said not to use gfci! Changed it to dedicated circuit just for refrigerator with standard breaker. No more issues
Manufactory instructions supersede the code. Show the inspector the instructions.
Good info Bill ... Thx
Thanks Eddy!
I would do it to get through inspection then promptly remove it to many stories of people loosing the items in the fridge because of a stupid gfi and code is getting out of hand with all of there requirements in my opinion is it truly about safety or making a home owner spend more money
I do understand!
I was in Home Depot recently and I saw a GFCI that has an alarm on it that sounds when it trips. Perfect for that freezer or refrigerator in the garage or basement.
Interesting, thanks!@@thomasdragosr.841
@thomasdragosr.841 I've heard of them but if your gone then that doesn't help
@@cade861True!
I've heard horror stories from customers that have come come from vacation to a dripping, rancid fridge full of maggots, all due to a tripped GFCI. Additionally, I have customers who grow/produce their own food for the year, and store it in garage freezers. Sometimes there's a code that you need to step around...
What we really need is reclosing GFCIs. Maybe with an hour or so delay...
I suspect someone could design them to be readonably safe taking into account the faulting current at time of trip, and only allowing it to reclose if it doesnt trip again quickly. This way, actual hazards would cause the GFCI to open the circuit and stay open until a manual reset, but a theoretical nuisance trip would re-close before damage to refrigerated goods.
Good video...interesting topic. At one time some local jurisdictions in Missouri were not requiring refrigerators to be. I haven't heard any discussion recently.
I think they should consider the safety of our food! Thanks Gary!
I agree that the protection of a refrigerator circuit is confusing. My house was built in 2000 and does not have GFCI protection for the refrigerator. Thanks for the video and research, Bill.
Thanks Tim!
I'm left scratching my head as to what known safety problem is being solved by using GFCI for dedicated appliance outlets for which the existing equipment grounding system, which has been in place for ages now and protects against ground faults, does not already address. Belt, suspenders, staples, duct tape - boy those pants are sure not going to fall down now!
Thanks Russell!
a while back on my continued education class Hawai'i said that are proposing the entire house main breaker be on a AFCI breaker. ... I have no words.
Oh boy!
A gfci trip behind a fridge should be avoided regardless, either use a gfci breaker (less desirable) or a "dead front" gfci-only (no outlet) in a box visible & next to fridge would be my choice for protecting fridge circuit
Thanks Mike!
All this extra protection feels like corporations forces extra expense on us. Every time I've tried using GFCI or AFCI outlet, they fail within a year or two, and they want these on all receptacles, now. With each receptacle costing around $30, it can get expensive real quick. I guess it's job security for electricians if they have to come out and replace receptacles all the time. I can't imagine that being good on the wiring. In this economy, people are just going to replace it with a $0.50 outlet from Walmart and call it a day. The silly think is that pathetic $0.50 outlet will last for 10 years, greatly outlasting these premium pieces of junk they are forcing on us.
Thanks Robert!
It won't hurt it.
How much power the compressor using is not a problem. As long at the circuit can handle it.
If people are worried about not being able to access the outlet. Just make sure the circuit is GFCI protected.
Yes, the breaker can handle AFCI and GFCI needs, getting around non- accessibility.
So last summer, someone on Reddit said that ferrite core suppressors clamped around the power cord or on the branch wiring (both hot and neutral inside a J box or even inside the panel) will absorb the EMI from motor equipment that erroneously trips GFCI/AFCI breakers. I don’t have a place to test this out so I can’t confirm if it works. Have you heard of this? Does it theoretically make sense? Only if there was a RUclipsr that was set up to test stuff like this…
Gfci is a good thing but your refrigerator and or freezer should not be on gfci. GFCI use to be super sensitive years ago but have improved the last ten years.. if your system is grounded correctly and bonded were necessary you will never see gfci on my fridge or freezer
I understand.
We can only wonder how long before the manufacturers throw enough money to the NFPA to get WiFi connected breakers.
It’s coming. Smart breakers
Have gfi on kitchen ref, garage freezer, and sump pump no problems. Have seen several failures of refrigeration units on gfi, and it is a bugger to troubleshoot sometimes. The only appliance so far I can't get to work on gfi is TIG welder. 208/240 gfis painfully expensive...
Thanks Jerry!
@williamrucki9293
0 seconds ago
I would like to see the insurance data supporting this absurd requirement. Just how many people were killed last year from touching a properly grounded refrigerator? Let's see that same data for a microwave as well. I have a hunch. I have a GFCI on a heat tape controller the warms a drain line behind my home. I noticed the controller was dark and of course, the GFCI was dead and open. If that would have been a piece of refrigeration equipment I would be one very unhappy camper. Swap out that garbage and put it back before you sell your home.
Thanks William!
We all would. Yet, no one will provide that data. (and guess who's pushing these rules? That's right, the industry that stands to profit from the sales of GFCI - and AFCI - hardware. Ever priced a 240V/30A "dryer" GFCI breaker?) I'm just waiting for 8d to add "ev chargers". (they do tend to be in garages, but they aren't outlets / receptacles. now price a 240/60A)
@@jfbeam that was my rant last week.
I would suspect the number of people killed in this situation regarding equipment grounded refigerators is zero. A costly solution for which one searches in vain for a problem it will solve. Follow the money and you'll likely find out why this code change was done.
What about an electric eel , do they need to be GFCI protected while you swim with them.
Is NEC starting to go a little to far ?
I don't want my refrigerator on a GFCI protected circuit , if it is properly grounded it should be safe .
Great video exposing an unreasonable requirement. Best idea I see reading the comments is dedicated circuits for fridge, microwave, sump pump, garage freezer/fridge with GFCI breakers. Then the homeowner can swap out the breaker after the inspector leaves. Not cheap though.
Thanks Don!
The homeowner could do the same with a gfci outlet.
Sounds like it is simpler to list where GFCI is not required .
We do not protect the fridge here. Nothing to do with high current draw at start up, but because motors can put other frequencies onto the wire. Motors can also make the amps and volts out of phase. Siemens GFCI can detect this and prevent a false trip, but most brands do not yet.
It shall be noted that window air conditioners for at least the last 15 years have GFI cord sets. Thank you for the screenshot of the code book. The NEC is also a legal document…
As someone else informed, manufacturers’ specifications are treated as the proper method as far as code goes, and whilst I am not intimately familiar with every model, I suspect, that the vast majority, if not all, are going to be a no-go for GFCI. I realise, that the refrigerator may not have even been ordered yet on a new build, but you can have a printout, of some random model highlighting the bit specifically saying not to install on a GFCI, ready for the inspector. This is a grey area but should not be viewed as unprofessional behaviour. Clients frequently change their mind during and after construction and may very well opt for the model that you have a printout for.
@@GeorgeVCohea-dw7ou you are correct, the NEC says to follow the Listing and Labeling Instructions.
I have seen some arguments about how poorly worded 210.8 (A) (2) is. Grammar and semantics are frequently crucial to correctly interpreting the NEC (I did not say understanding.). Some say that Garages should be its own line and accessory buildings should be their own line. Other say that there should be a comma after Garage. How do you have a Garage that is above grade level and be able to get the car into the garage? If the concrete driveway or gravel or asphalt comes up to the level of the garage floor it is at grade. How far off the ground does the accessory building need to be to be above grade level? How do you protect someone that makes contact with a fault in an accessory building that is above grade? Is that my kid;s tree house? Also, do only garages with accessory buildings have to be GFCI protected? Some say a correction is likely coming.
Life is important. I don't want my or my wife's, or my children, their spouses or grandchildren or any following generation life ended or maimed because of an improper outlet installation.
By the way, there was a time when electricians objected to having to give up on knob and tube wiring (It really is safe if it has not been tampered with.). Single color black tar impregnated cloth wire was adequate and all that was needed. 2 colors was a waste of money. Who needs a ground wire. It is just a waste of money. Junction boxes just waste more money. 4 circuits sharing a neutral are just fine throughout the house, farm, office, shop, or factory. And no. Pixies don't take the path of lease resistance. The pixies provide equal opportunity to all paths to ground.
Next, Next the nec wants Lighting Bolts to have a minimum multi arc gfci protection, with saftey shields for Shock and Awe!!! Penalties mailed in! And, And Fined!
Was that a GFCI on that garbage disposal you just showed. Logically I would say you should have one there, even if it is under the sink.
I understand not wanting GFCI on a fridge or freezer. If it trips and you're not home, it could get very expensive. However, I will also admit that the newer GFCI receptacles don't trip nearly as often as the ones from 20 years ago. In fact, I've not (yet) seen a false positive trip in a new GFCI receptacle.
Excellent, thanks!
Mine is brand new Leviton , tripped all the time that i had to get rid of GFCI yesterday
@@blessnorthamerica7919 I've found the newer ones to be very stable. If it's tripping all the time, there's usually a problem somewhere. It may be minor and hard to find, but it's usually there. That said, could it have been a bad GFCI receptacle? Sure. Anything made by man can go bad at any time. I've seen light bulbs be dead out of the box, light then immediately blow, last a week then blow, and last 10+ years with no problems. There's just no telling without trying a 2nd unit. If the 2nd unit trips also, there's something wrong somewhere. The problem may be in the device you're plugging in. It may momentarily do something as it starts up then the problem goes away or it may have a very small leak between hot and ground. As I'm sure you know, it doesn't take much to trip the GFCI. In fact, it's so little that compared to a fridge's compressor kicking in, it's probably not noticeable. The GFCI isn't there to protect the equipment, although it can and does; it's there to protect people. If the device does have a small leak to ground, it's probably being handled by the grounding system and you'd not notice it by touching the device, but it may be enough to trip the GFCI. So, in addition to trying a different GFCI receptacle, it may be worthwhile trying a different device in the receptacle and see if it still trips. Also, if the receptacle protects downstream receptacles, disconnect them long enough to do the testing to make sure the problem isn't downstream.
Let me pose this question. IF you install a dead front GFCI inline BUT not at the point of connection leading to a simplex outlet for a device listed.. that should suffice. Correct. I ask because then the device is GFCI protected but the device is not directly plugged into the GFCI so the simplex outlet takes the brunt of the start up not the circuitry of the GFCI directly.
Not sure what you mean by "dead front". Either way, tho, if you connect a standard receptacle to another GFCI per manufacturer instructions, then it will be subject to protection, and it will have the same issues because if the GFCI trips then both receptacles are knocked out.
@@marcfruchtman9473 a dead front GFCI is a gfci device with no receptacles. It's just the trip and reset buttons. a blank face. Provides protection without the chance of the quick or phantom trip due to immediate motor start up. I've heard about it and read a little about using this method.
@@scotttribout1150 Thanks for the info. Other than the lack of physical connection on the front plate, a regular modern GFCI should be just as good... It would be cool tho, if a device had specs that actually mention decreased nuisance tripping. If you spot something, please repost! The only thing I can think of that would have less nuisance tripping would be an Equipment Ground Fault Protection Device, but the code doesn't seem to show an exception to add one as an alternative if Nuisance tripping would represent an issue.
Makes sense because we all have heard (or experienced) the horror stories of people having problems with refrigerators plugged into non gfci outlets 🙄
True.
Gfci protection on the ref or freezer is really dumb. Even if its the new code.Just asking for trouble. Call me a scofflaw.
I think they're getting carried away with these gfci's. I live in a senior park and every couple of months a neighbor calls asking for help because theyve lost power. "Push the button" usually fixes it.
Thanks Robert!
Not only that but afci. Bedrooms was good enough.
😎⚒️😎⚒️😎
I have yet to see a garage with the floor above grade in a residence.
I understand. It can be done though. Whether an inspector would agree to allow no GFCI protection for a garage with an above grade floor is another subject though.
Think about hillside homes where the land drops away at the driveway entrance.
I'd do whatever he wants to pass code. Then inform the homeowner what could happen. But i dont think i would eliminate it because if something happens i dont want to be liable. I would make sure it eas wired very simply with only hot neutral sng ground. Then i would suggest the owner gi to u tube yo see how to change out a receptacle. Your garage door opener is on a gfi also. Can you imagine some jerk putting the gfl on yhe ceiling rather than at a location you can get at to test snd reset?
Good points, thanks!
The best way is install GFCI/AFCIcircuit breaker in the kitchen fridge
Isn’t this only for newer homes and apartments? Most of my kitchen appliances are 20 amp receptacles, but none of them are GFCI. The house was built in 1973.
Your house is under 1973 codes, but you can always exceed codes.
@@SparkyChannel
Yes, if you want to have all your wires, ripped out and walls replaced!
Where I live, if you dink with a circuit during a remodel, that circuit needs to be brought up to code, regardless of the age of the house.
@@donbushek733
I didn’t remodel my bathroom, but I did add a simple GFCI switch to replace the outlet, because the hair dryer kept shorting out the circuit. I figured it’s easier to just reset the circuit from the bathroom.
As others have said, you have to meet the code in force at the time the work is done. So, you're good until you touch anything. (depending on where you are, changing a lightbulb could be "touching anything". but less heavy handed... anything that touches or exposes electrical. or from the most _practical_ stance... anything that has to be inspected.)
seen GFI,s kick out on ref in the kitchen on it,s own circuit.
i do think the GFI,s are probably better than years ago.
It would only take one false trip to ruin a fridge full of food.
That's true, particularly if someone is on vacation when it trips.
@@SparkyChannelhow many spontaneous GFCI trips are there though? AFCI I can see, but not GFCI. GFCI just runs the hot and neutral through a wire coil, and the magnetic fields cancel out if the current is equal in both, and no voltage is created on the coil. If current leaks somewhere, the neutral has less current than the hot, and there is a net magnetic field in the coil, and it creates a voltage that trips the sensor. Simple device from a physics perspective. Can’t see how a fridge running would trip it. No amount of inrush current would change this.
HOWEVER I would put a fridge on its own GFCI and not downstream/upstream of any outlets an inhabitant could use.
I used a GFCI with an audible alarm (not loud enough to really get attention) for my garage freezer. But IMHO this is another money grab UNLESS a dedicated, limited accessibility (behind) can not be provided.
Was it this one?: Leviton GFCI Outlet with Audible Alarm, 20 Amp, Self Test, Tamper-Resistant with LED Indicator Light, Great for Refrigerators in Garages, GFTA2-W, White: Amazon:
amzn.to/49V5jZ1
Sparky, because of nuisance tripping, do they have smart GFCI receptacles? This way you are notified when it does trip. Nobody wants spoiled food🤪
yes they make some with audible warning
"Smart" would imply that it would use the internet to message you somehow. I know there's a couple of (wickedly expensive) smart load centers which could facilitate this--do not know of individual smart breakers @@FixthisCD
in-rush current can be limited with simple electronic components, compressors don't need to put a nasty load on breakers or GFCI devices.
a fridge in the bedroom would still need AFCI, no?
Yes, it would need AFCI.@@wim0104
I would think not. If the GFCI shuts off there will be a lot of smelly spoiled food.
I think that the safety of our food should be considered as well.
It’s all Rube Goldberg.
LOL!
I would say this comment section shows why electric codes are set by electrical engineers and not electricians. A lot of misunderstanding about what GFCI does and how it works.
Your fridge or freezer isn't safer in the bedroom! That location requires AFCI protection.
Yes, it does need AFCI if it's in a bedroom.
Honestly it is the AFCI requirement in kitchens which causes more grief for refrigerators, in particular when the frost-free cycle begins, an arc can occur as the circuit is energized which the AFCI detector identifies as something bad, and shuts off the circuit. I have not really had any problems with GFCI nuisance faults.
GFI: a solution looking for a problem.
GFCIs have saved many lives, there’s no question about that. Whether it’s needed for your microwave is a different question.
@@dtemp132 my pinball machine trips it. Normal breakers go in. Toaster oven too. F-it
The NEC people are dumb ….. it will cause so many service calls due to the nuisance tripping of GFI’s…at the end of the day I can tell you that 90% of service calls at my company will be swapped out to a normal non-GFI outlet.
A wise man once said… “If that is the code, then the code is an ass “
Thanks!
NO.
Got it.
How are you going to put a gfci on a 240 volt electric range that draws 3500 watts of electricity!!, even a 240 volt single phase breaker gfci wouldn't work!!, would keep tripping off !
You wouldn't have to, the code says "...the following appliances rated 150 volts or less..."
A stove is 240 volts.
@@shanehancock9624 150V or less *TO GROUND*. Line to ground is 120V - _line to line_ is 240. I've complained about how many things this _needlessly_ complicates for many years. 8(D) is now closing the loophole of having these appliances hardwired. Previously, the language only covered receptacles. Yes, there are 250V 30+A GFCI breakers. (they are every bit as expensive as you imagine.)
Imma not a fan of this. U may lose a lot of food if that trips and you don’t notice for some time
Yes, and the food may be extremely important.
No AFCI, no GFCI