Fun fact: in the ATLA comic Katara and the Pirate's Silver, they actually address this mindset! Katara feels self conscious for not being "as tough" as Toph. She ends up going on a side quest, but when she comes back to the gaang and she admits to her underlying feelings, they all go without a beat, "Bruh Katara you are the baddest bitch here" including Toph. None of the others saw her as weaker for her femininity, she was just as strong and badass as Toph was. It made me so happy.
She was the emotional backbone of a group of child-militia, that went on to take down the most powerful empire on earth when she herself was also a child That's no easy feat
In my opinion another reason why these characters are hated is because of age of these shows public (I know, sounds weird). They're mostly for teenagers/kids and young adults in hazbin case and that's perfect age for hating your gender traits especially among girls. As you said feminine traits are well... Feminine! Mostly emotional and focused on others and surroundings. Emphaty sounds cool but young girls would rather like to be described as logical and strong because that makes them more unique. Kids don't see full walue of feminine traits and society don't emphasize them enough and we learn to love these traits by ourself much later.
That’s actually interesting because Aang’s (who is shown briefly at the beginning as having feminine traits) “feminine” traits can be interpreted as him being young and perhaps naive. I also wouldn’t say that Katara (out of all these shows atla is the only one I recognized) was super feminine, she was more so girlish. Characters I would describe as definitely more feminine would include Ty Lee and Yue, who are more adult-ified. Though OP had some good thoughts, I think people hating on the girl characters depends on the intersection of age and gender, because “womanly” characters have a sexual appeal making them viewed as “just eye candy”. There’s definitely a lot to be said on this topic, and I think it is more of a fandom thing than irl.
I’d say it’s less about feeling special and more about not being considered submission to another human just because of your birth. I’ve literally had guy friends tell me im inferior to them just because im a girl. Why would i want to be praised for being caring and kind if it’s coming from a group of people who think im serving my “role”? Often when the guys know you can actually challenge them, they respect you. We need to embrace both traits, honestly indont view emotions as feminine or masculine cause ive seen guys that are way more emotional than some girls. Honestly i think if we got rid of most religions this stuff would resolve itself. For example, the pygmy people thought of men and women as equals but they have very little lore and religion cause life was too hard to bother with that stuff. If a woman wanted to marry or a man want to marry a woman, he needed to offer a replacement for the woman that the family would be losing since she was considered a valuable member that helped keep the family going, the same as the men. Not too long ago, men in myanmar considered women lower than dogs. What intelligent young girl would purposely want to lower herself to be a pedestal for someone else to stand on? Until we can see where women are respected regardless of if theyre tough or if their compassionate, i think most girls are going to veer to a badass character just because there are so many times that theyre made to feel less than or weak compared to guys. I know too many kind women who allow themselves to be ran over by others, because it’s not “feminine” to express rage or dissatisfaction at being treated like crap and having your kindness being taken advantage of. Of course, this can apply to kind men as well, the system is toxic to them in a whole different way that i cant even imagine. They have to be able to take insults, not cry if they feel sad, and put up a strong but brittle armor all the time.
@@MA-ir8oc You might enjoy "My Farm by the Palace" on Tapas. The protagonist has overtly feminine traits that make her endearing and assertive at the same time. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can take advantage of so easily either.
There's a manhwa called "My Farm by the Palace" on Tapas, where the female protagonist is both empathetic and assertive. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can talk down to either. She acts a lot like how Disney's Cinderella did when they received the invitation to the ball.
I don't think its the femininity that's hated. Rosie from hazbin hotel is pretty feminine and she's loved. I believe that the real reason is that the female characters are usually very blunt and boring. They're usually just tropes and that happens even with more masculine women. Unlike the male characters, the females have no depth and sometimes, you look at a male character and think "this could have happened to a female character" but for some reason, it never does. They're always just following a trope with female characters.
Rosie is a perfect exmaple! She turns stereotypical gossipy lady into a place for others to vent. She gives advice from her experience and she does order people around, she unifies them. She knows when to make a stand and when to let her people decide. She runs a true democracy and rather than pushing her people to do things, she gives them the space for them to be free while keeping order. Others being able to vent to her and her making time to make them feel special, prevent more conflicts from occurring in the community. Sometimes people just need to feel cared for and heard and she does it perfectly.
@@boonAlina yes but the masculine mares aren't more adored than the feminine mares and there are a lot of male characters who are very powerful and important even though they are side characters. In fact, the most powerful being, after the tree/elements of friendship (which is more of a concept than a character), is Discord, a male. So I believe they are liked as characters, not because they have no competition with male protagonists.
Ive seen this problem on a personal level. As a femme lesbian I’ve met people think they can say who I am and try to press unflattering stereotypes out of hate. I love femininity and see it as beautiful and those thinking the only way to oppose sexism is to demonize femininity have lost the plot. They’re falling into sexism without being honest with themselves. As for definitions, there’s nothing wrong with yours but I’d like to add my perspective 🙂. I think personality traits shouldn’t be seen as gendered. However expressions of gender in as in, fashion, media culture, and aesthetics have gendered qualities. Therefore I define femininity as wearing feminine clothes and presenting more traditionally feminine. However your point still stands under that definition. As more girly-girls characters are heavily “mean-girlized” and seen as weak even if in reality those stereotypes don’t add up.
Thank you for not gendering personality traits, girls are not masculine because they can stand up for themselves and boys are not feminine for caring about others. Those are traits that can be embraced by either in a healthy way. The less you feel like a gender and the more you feel like a person the better. We’re all just people with different traits and experiences.
Well that's not exactly what feminine and masculine mean. As I said, both genders can be fem or masc. Fem and masc are not genders. That's the reason why a man would have a feminine trait if he was super empathetic. But that doesn't make him any less of a man. Feminine traits are not female traits, they are just traits. And either gender can have them. (Sorry I just feel you may have misunderstood me and I had to clarify.)
@Soothsayer-ll6pm But what is a man being a man and a woman being a woman? Until that is clear, I don't really think gendered roles make much difference as long as both people agree to what roles they're going to do. For me a man produces semen and can get a woman pregnant, and a woman can get pregnant and carry a child, but beyond that it pretty much stops there. Yes men are more equipped to to do hard labor, but there are many tribal societies where women did the bulk of the labor albeit in a group setting. As a woman, I don't really care about traditional gender roles, because my experience of them came from a religion that treats women in a toxic way(desert trio, I'm looking at you). I don't want kids or have my role as caring for the house, I'd rather repair and fix stuff than clean and cook. I wouldn't rule out a relationship, but am not interested in one at this point. I'm sure many women want a protector, but many don't as well because we shouldn't have to be protected from other men, men should be civilized enough ( as many are, but just as many unfortunately are not) that their mere presence should not scare a woman. Also many men think they're protectors just by being men, but have next to no combat training and are honestly scared of authority figures and can barely stand up for themselves much less someone else. Now I will say if someone wants kids, having a set idea of who does what is great, but just as a man needs to know how to clean the house, the woman should know how to change the oil. That way if anything happens to the man ( or woman) they dont have to rush immediately into a relationship which could possible endanger the kids. Many women rush into toxic relationships in this scenario, just as many widowers might rush to get a new wife so they don't have to care for the kids. The kids usually suffer in this situation.
I present feminine in looks but I nerd out about warships, fighter jets and muscle cars. I actually enjoy combining fashion and these things in one aesthetic and philosophy.
I honestly think it's weird that personality traits and hobbies/lifestyles are divided into "masculine" and "feminine". The whole thing just seems...dated, if you ask me. Like, pink isn't a masculine or feminine color, it's just a color. Why assign gender to everything? Y'know?
Well like I said, feminine isn't inherintly a "female" thing. You can be a man who is super feminine or a woman who is super masculine. They're really just... ways people think and how they work?
I think it's mainly about the writing, and not so much the femininity itself. In Danganronpa, I know tons of people who love Celeste, Kaede, Sonia, Mikan, and Miu just as much as others love Mukuro, Kyoko, and Sakura. I think it's mostly a matter of taste, or where you're looking, but I think if the writers give both sides of the spectrum good development, both can be equally as appealing I don't think Charlie is a good example since she's the main character, and people tend to gravitate towards the supporting characters / antagonists / minor characters (so many people ADORE Rosie in case you haven't noticed, and I adore her, too) moreso than the protagonist it seems. Even going back to Danganronpa for a minute, none of the protagonist have nearly as many fans as any of the other characters- even if you combine the fans of Hajime, Makoto, and Kaede, you won't get nearly as many as characters like Nagito, Toko, Gonta, Byakuya, Ibuki, Fuyuhiko, Kaito, or Kokichi have individually. Also, Charlie absolutely has an angsty backstory (hello? Lucifer? Lilith?? Having to see your people die every year??) But even then, you mention Angel Dust but he's incredibly feminine (though I suppose not by your definition of it, which makes sense) If you want a nurturing, empathetic, and giving character that's very well-loved, just look at Kirumi Tojo! She's incredibly selfless and supportive, while also dressing feminine- she may not be pink, but I don't think that's a requirement for this, right?
No. Femininity and masculinity are okay and necessary. Rather we should say: "reject female narcissism, reject male narcissism." "Embrace healthy masculinity, embrace healthy femininity"
Yeah! she shined when she tried to kill the general that killed her mother but held back. That made go from feeling mixed about her to loving her. And when she tied up azula in the frozen ice thing at the end was so cool. I think what makes ppl dislike her is her stickler aspect, especially against ang, sokka and tough who have comic relief aspects - so she's seen as ending their jokes. I think It would of been interesting if they explored her taking on the mom role at such a young age more, she is only 13/14. (Maybe they did I just couldn't remember) The rest of team avatar, bar zuko, are still allowed to act juvenile/goofy and she wasn't given that chance in the same way.
@Mariathinking I think people dislike her because her idealistic nature can come off as contradictory in a war zone. Like when she prompted Haru to save the old man, and he ended up turning him in. Sure, she had no way of knowing that would happen, but she adopts the same attitude when she tried to save him and the other Earthbenders, using her ideals as a means to encourage them to fight. Then there was the episode where she pretended to be the Painted Lady and teased Sokka about his schedule in spite of their deadline, not to mention her interference likely cost them precious time. I saw an educational sketch show called "Horrible Histories," there was a sketch of WWII housewife who resorted to eating zoo animals because food was so scarce and one of a WWI soldier who mentioned that in the trenches soldiers ate bread made of sawdust (Ersatz bread), coffee made from coal tar, and pepper made from ashes, alongside a milkman who diluted his in the toilet due to the shortages. Katara's a stark idealist, but in a war zone, you're probably better off being an extreme pragmatist.
@@ThePrincessCHI love Katara so much but I agree one of her character flaws was she was a bit self righteous and hypocritical at times. Sometimes the rules didn’t apply to her in some instances if SHE felt it was in the right. Disregarding other people’s feelings. For example, when she told Sokka he didn’t care for their mother as much as she did because he wasn’t revengeful towards her executor. But I still love her because everyone has flaws and I think ATLA did a good job show casing realism in their characters.
As a teenage girl, I was shamed for not liking typical girl thing like shopping and make-up. As an adult, I can realize it came from the passing of my mother, and so no feminine figure in my life other than my grandmother (that I was shamed for "stealing her style), my anxiety and depression, my low self-esteem and my lack in communication that made me an isolated kid. Hell, I was even asked by my sport teacher to ask girls in my class about certain stuff regarding period because I shouldn't be missing class because of a little blood. Like, the terrible pain I suffered for a week wasn't a reason in itself. Anyway, as a 26 years old woman, I can't wait for warmer time to put on dresses or wear long hair. I'm still not comfortable with make up or jewelry but I can now choose my own clothing. And I don't care anymore to show that I like anime, to act a little too childish, to fully express my emotions or to be kind with people. Because that's what save my life, not the "you need to be special" bullshit. I'm happy to be a woman, whatever that means, and I'm grateful to be able to work with kids all day. They give me my daily dose of positivity and contact I need, that I'm too icky to ask of adults. And, I mean, kids are just too cute, anything can become an adventure or a prize. I can just be myself and enjoy my day, that's should be anyone goal in life. Instead of playing the victim card all the time.
This is just my opinion but outwardly feminine characters like Lottie(princess & the frog), Rarity, Princess Bubblegum, Starfire, etc are all beloved staples in their respective fandoms. I think much of the hatred given to these characters is A) classic case of “getting in the way of my ship” or B) They’re simply one dimensional or fall into character tropes that people don’t enjoy (such as the manic pixie dream girl/adorkable trend). I personally don’t find the inverse(tomboys) to always be well liked either, and it really comes down to their characterization and personality most of the time. There’s a reason tests such as the “sexy lamp” exist; if a female character can be replaced by a sexy lamp, she’s not a character.
I’m a trans girl, so I have a bit of a specific perspective. I got bullied for being girly, but that was because everyone saw me as a boy. When I transitioned (Which like none of my friends found surprising much to my surprised Pikachu face), as much as I wanted to be as feminine as I liked, I’ve struggled with fully expressing it mostly out of the fear and anxiety that was brewed in me after years of bullying at school. When I want to wear a dress in public I have to psych myself up because I am so fucking terrified of people. So to me, girls who are able to be girly and own it are bloody brilliant. I wish I could have that confidence. But there are some things no amount of anxiety meds seem to be able to help.
Feminine characters aren't annoying, but overly feminine characters are. Same with masculinity. Doesn't matter if these characters are female or male. Masculinity and femininity are arbitrary (when it comes to how people actually are), so people who don't have any masculine traits or any feminine traits are (or seem) fake/inhuman to me. Someone can be very masculine-leaning or very feminine-leaning, but if their entire personalities are their genders, it gets really annoying.
Well said. I feel that it's also annoying when a character personality is being "the opposite of their gender". If the writers make the entire appeal of a girl "she's not like other girls". It comes across as kind of misogynistic. Like women are bad and naturally weak. People should stop thinking about writing good female characters and just think about them as characters. But I'm a guy so I don't really know how girls feel about it.
@@Stankyl0saurus I think it ultimately stems from writers trying to say that not all women and girls are the same, but they just go a little too far with it and make them even more masculine than most male characters, which gets into "caricature" territory.
There’s an anime called Apothecary diaries, which has a very well written female lead (her name is Maomao) like even people who don’t like anime admit that she’s very well written. Like there are a lot of videos on RUclips that talk about her character, that’s why I’m not going to talk much about her, I recommend checking out one of these videos on RUclips if you want to know more about her
I think that people also dont like stickler type characters. You know - competent, doesnt like fun, prioritises the safe route, organised, overall bland. Its why scott summers, leonardo and robin are disliked compared to their teamates. Tbf, ppl love team azula and they are quite girl, epsecially Tai Lee. I think stickler type characters dont take on calls to action as rapidly as the tomboy/lancer type characters because the sticklers are more hesitant and dont like to break the rules. There are ways of making feminine characters break rules and be compelling ie rarity from mlp or Miss Piggy, i think it takes a certain skill set to write fabulous characters. youtube.com/@sippingteayuh?si=WNc-MmshFvyc8JIl this channel show cases these feminine characters that ppl adore well.
I love Charlie and Katara what’s going onnnn😂😭 back in the day in my friend group everyone always wanted to be Katara. I was more the odd one out because I always wanted to be Toph.
It could also be in part because of what other femenine chacaters have been like that have nothing to do with the carefully writen examples you've given. Characters that are a list of what misogynistic writers think of woman, and are written without any nuance or to be explicitly annoying. Imagine Chichi, from Dragon Ball Z, where her only porpuse of existing is giving birth to new plot poits (Gohan and Gotten) and showing how boring life without fighting is, how annoying it is to be normal and be the butt of every "I hate my wife" joke ever. That's just the writers ranting about their marriages instead of going to therapy. Another example I can think of is Amy Rose during certain games. She is everything girly and annoying because, well, she's an obligatory love interest created in the 80's so she's what a bunch of computer nerds imagine that girls are like. With time, the idea of this bothersome female characters that don't really serve a porpuse gets drilled into our heads, so as soon as we see any of those girly characteristics anywhere, our predisposition is to think about those bad examples. Amy has had a couple of games where she's carefully written and gained a lot of depth, but every time she appears people are quick to dismiss her because that's what we have been doing for so long.
It's funny because quote to the Japanese instruction booklet, Amy rose described as an "energetic or optimistic tomboy". in sonic fighters, where the piko piko hammer was introduce , also explains why she was given the hammer as a weapon in order to strengthen her tomboyish nature.
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Not really into Marvel. Max is pretty cool. It's nice that she's a tomboy that's perfectly fine dressing feminine when the occasion calls for it.
i think this ties into the whole "not like other girls" phase a lot of teenagers go through, where they are convinced they have to stand out and not do/like girly stuff that "other girls" are doing.
thats a nice perspective on Femininity. Though i think it could still be a bit deeper than that, rather than just ppl like different things, who care about the world. Like i wonder if ppl like masculine female characters only in fiction and not in real life? or are those examples that you point out are made with male audience in mind so it come out that way.
I will say as a somewhat masculine female ( by masculine stereotypes) most men are scared of me. Many have told me if i ever marry, i’ll have to let the guy do the home repairs even if he does them worse than me, just to spare his ego. My body doesnt physically look masculine, which i think scares them more. However, i’ve noticed most secure men are not scared and tend to be respectful to me. Ive had a former guy friend tell me they want someone to boss him around, but he wants to be dominant. Makes no sense, either get bossed around or boss someone around or work together as a team, but dont expect someone to play mental gymnastics of being subtly bossy. Very insecure, because even when he needed someone to stand up for him and i did, he couldnt even do the rest of the leg work and stand up for himself ( and i wouldve helped him at the time too, cause it aint easy standing up for yourself).
I talk from experience, when I say that being surrounded by girly girl things and having it pushed on me, when I was clearly more tomboyish made me resent the more feminine end of the spectrum as a kid/teen. I resented it so much, that most my OCs would be mistaken for guys 95% of the time. And I was glad to see the women in media getting a bit more tomboyish... until I realized they were actively over-correcting and treating the girly girls even worse than I used to be treated back then. It's going too far. Femininity isn't a weakness and being tomboyish isn't either.
Sure but not many people like 'em either. You always see a female character getting praised, and guess what? It's always a female character that has a bunch of masculine hobbies, or is a warrior. Like Olivier Armstrong from FMAB, or Erza from Fairytail, or Haruhi from OHSHC, etc.
It’s interesting that the feminine characters you mentioned are so disliked but no one really hates on Starfire for that and she’s probably more feminine than all of them.
@boonAlina it's ok for men to look ugly bc no one cares about men women are put on a higher standard bc people actually care about them. there's a reason why "female protagonist" is a category in most gaming stores but not "male protagonist" Is it because it's ok for men to look ugly but for women they must always be attractive because that's all misogynists care about when it comes to women? It's just said af tbh Gear of War protagonist looks like a bulldog, no one complains, but when they saw women with same Archetype, EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MIND!!!!
I feel you on the "ashamed of femininity traits" headspace. In fact, Katara is a character that resonates strongly with me when it comes to this topic. I used get really annoyed with Katara. Never hated her, but she was my least favorite of the main cast for a while. I realize that this is because I actually related to Katara a lot (sweet but hot-tempered when crossed), but when I was first watching the show, I was 12-years old and projected myself onto her unconsciously, and I was not happy about that at the time because I was not happy with who I was as a person and the way I handled things. Now though, she's become one of my favorite characters because I love the way she develops over the course of the series. And since I am much more comfortable with who I am as a person now, I feel great about relating to her :) Apologies for the mini rant lol
There's a manhwa on Tapas called "My Farm by the Palace." The protagonist has overtly feminine traits that make her endearing and assertive at the same time. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can talk down to either. She acts a lot like Disney's Cinderella did when they received the invitation to the ball.
Maybe because the "feminine" characters are written as how men and disconnected women see femininity. As a little kid watching avatar, I related more with toph than I did with katara. Katara had this foolish attitude throwing, bossy girl attitude that I as a little girl just saw as foolish and knew women I looked up to weren't like that. There's nothing wrong with being girly, but there is a problem when the female character is just everything bad about being a girl.
You might enjoy "My Farm by the Palace" on Tapas. The protagonist has overtly feminine traits that make her endearing and assertive at the same time. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can talk down to either.
@@MiracleTimes07 Yes, but let's not pretend like she isn't like that. That was a whole plot point in the Runaway episode. Toph was making bank scamming Fire Nationers, Katara was being prudish and was against the "fun" thing, then changed her mind because she wanted to be seen as cool, only to regret it when this leads to her and Toph getting caught by Combustion Man.
I find it interesting that you included Charlie on the list of feminine characters with Lute as her opposite. Although I know that this video is talking more about personality traits, and as the ones you listed, Charlie is definitely more feminine and Lute more masculine. It’s interesting because Charlie is definitely more liked than Lute (from what I’ve seen) but that might just be because Lute is a massive jerk. But speaking of how they dress (and I know this isn’t the point of the video) Charlie has both a masculine name and wears a suit, while being very feminine in her personality.
Great video! You touched on a topic that not a lot of people talk or think about. I was more of a tomboy in elementary and had all tomboy friends. I loved the Barbie movies though! And never told my friends that because I felt too embarrassed about liking something that was girly. So silly that as a little girl I was embarrassed about liking something girly. I think writers may be thinking of their target audience when writing characters. If they want an audience that both girls and boys will watch, then a main female character can’t be girly or too feminine otherwise boys and tomboys may feel embarrassed to watch or wouldn’t even want to watch. But idk! That’s just my perspective. (Edit: word correction)
I was rolling with you until you said you were a little girl after just saying you were a tomgirl. A tomgirl is a boy interested in traditionally girly things. A tomboy is a girl interested in traditionally boyish things.
@@MrRachaelm2013 And just to let you know, no masculine person should ever have to feel ashamed of liking anything or anyone feminine, regardless of what people say.
I know i am late to this As a male who loves Shonen, there are a lot of male leads who get shit on. When there character who are nice or silly, they are hated but have a when characters who are dark are favorite there alot anime characters are like that. So i talk both male and female friends above characters they prefer darker characters, badass characters who are no mercy, or rude characters at that or just straight up toxic . So maybe when they see feminine character they too nice or what every because when Charlie had that moment when he turns and rage people wouldn't stop talking about that even luffy gotten hate because he gear 5 was silly not cool but silly evem this it was Badass thats just my opinion i guess
I have a completely different impression. Every time a more masculine female character appears, the entire Internet shouts that woke culture hates femininity.
And also,Luth is not "masculine". It makes no sense to me to only categorize character's personnality traits as either masc or fem and nothing else. Humans are more complex than just masc or fem
It's not so much Femininity that is hated as it's characters with Feminine traits who are written to be weak or ineffectual. Because many writers sadly cannot conceive of ways to communicate Femininity and Strength/Competence at the same time. There are more ways to be 'Strong' than mere physical strength, but they are often more difficult to write. Strength of character, emotional fortitude and the capacity to support others are all very good ways to write a Feminine character who is also strong. Any brute can just punch their way through a single fight, it takes a strong person to deal with a stressful or demanding situation for an extended period of time. I'm currently writing a story with two leads, one Male and one Female. The Male character resolves most of his obstacles through fighting, but he still leans on the Female character for emotional support when fighting isn't enough, showing he trusts her enough to let his guard down and be vulnerable. Her struggles are more through Communication and having the Courage to pursue her goals non-violently. That's not to say she never fights, but she always seeks a non-violent solution when possible. Her strength comes through having the emotional endurance to push through the tough times with the Male character, and in turn they influence one another. She teaches him to be more Communicative and Social, where he teaches her to be Courageous and Driven. Sort of like a Yin/Yang situation, but one is never put down to glorify the other, they need each other and neither can make the journey alone.
@@boonAlina Thank you. Will do. :) One of the challenges I made for myself was to write the Female lead as someone who embraces alot of Feminine traits (such as empathy, courtesy, communicative, caring, loves art and is fond pink in her attire) but is also portrayed as capable and strong-willed. She is feminine but you'd never call her weak or passive. :)
As a new male writer, I guess, writing female characters is the toughest part. Atleast for me. That's why I am thinking to taking guidance and help from my cousin sister to write them.
I loved katara growing up. She was and is one of my favorite characters in avatar. I was so surprised when i found out that apparently a lot of people hated her but i think sarcastic chorus pretty much hit the nail on the head on why (other than misogyny). Being the motherly “heart” of the group, she usually gets delegated to being the one who has to do the unfun jobs of keeping the group in line and that can sound like nagging. And when you’re always the one who has to do this, it makes any offenses you do that kinda goes against it seem way bigger than if someone else in the group did it, because then it has hypocritical connotations. Regretfully, a lot of femine characters are usually delegated to the role of the heart, so the same thing usually applies to them. Maybe if we started making feminine characters some other type, like maybe the lancer or the brains of the group, then there might be some better reception
I’m the girl in between I love to be tomboy and girly the next. Ps I am straight so I always liked boys I was never gay. I just act masculine sometimes and girly too. I was a full on tomboy growing up. And now I also like to dress up and look pretty. I love to wear dresses and straight my hair I also love to put on makeup. Like any other girl. But also love sports like soccer basketball and tennis. I guess the best being a tomboy. Your friend group is a boy. So I was actually hanging out with cute boys. I did had a crush on 1 of them later in years he admitted that he had a crush on me too. We’re just friends still we decided to stay as friends.
Yeah same. My personality is pretty much right in the middle. Like, you won't catch me wearing make up or skirts, but you also won't catch me talking about trucks and sports lol.
From my experience as a guy watching all sorts of shows there appears to be a dichotomy. It mostly depends on who your show appeals to the most. While a show like ATLA appeals to both sides, it likely appeals more to young males, and with how Katara acted in the very beginning it kinda makes sense why she was hated. I should know i hated her too until i grew up. ...then on the other side theres Korra who just came off as annoying because of her attitude and temper.
I think one of the reasons some of these characters may have been disliked is because they were girly characters in shows marketed towards boys. As a writer, I've created many characters, both male and female, and thinking of my female characters specifically in relation to this video, I think I've created a good mix. My goal is always to create unique characters so having all my characters be masculine or feminine would work against that. Two of my characters come to mind when I think of more tomboyish girls, but the lead character of my fantasy story is more traditionally feminine. A lot of the stories I write are superhero stories and I like writing feminine girls with superpowers that are traditionally masculine. People expect the tomboy to be a heavy hitter so it's fun to subvert expectations.
UM I LOVE KATARA, and also a reason why she was disliked was probably cuz she was like motherly and bossy, while toph was more laid back and chill. and also korra got a fair share of hate for being like a pick me and stuck up.
Well, I also like Katara but I think it also has to do with the way she dealt with her traumas, she used her trauma of losing her mother as a way to justify her bad behavior and well sure it is something that affects someone for life but she uses it way too often (it reminded me of “The Edge of 17” when Nadine tried to use her father’s death as an excuse for not bringing homework but her teacher asked her when it happened and it was a couple of years before and he said he had an expiration date for using the “dead relative” excuse), or because she made a scene whenever someone wanted to do things in a way that was different of hers
@@lauracerqueiramachado8979 yeah i mean it did affect her a lot, but at this point shes creating a label for herself that oh its because of that, shes kinda letting that affect her and more than it does or making it seem that way
I would also like to add the racial dynamic to this as well. Notice how Katara and Korra get the most hate outta anyone in their series. Korra is masculine just like Toph yet those same traits are hated on Korra. WOC suffer the most from being judged on their femininity and or masculinity, especially if you’re darker skin.
i disagre korra is one of the most hated characters in the ATLA universe and she is inspired from women mma fighter and Katara is one one of the most loved characters in ATLA way more them Azula you is less feminie (according to you're definition) but great vid none the less
@@turulszervac1714 Then you were living under a rock. And also the Internet wasn't as prominent back then. But the reason the hated her was cuz of two comments she said which were "too bad you can't see them, Toph!" And something to Sokka about not being as close with mom as she was. But also cuz they didn't like how she was motherly. Those comments can be excused cuz she was literally like 12 and 13
It could be the audiences for the shows (though Ive only seen the avatar shows) didnt realize people hate Kitara like that. I do know people Love Azula who is feminine.. well more so Evil queen archetype = Toxic Femininity
My personal theory is that since masculinity is heavily tied to dominance and we live in a world built on dominance hierarchies, femininity is descriminated against by default. In a Society built on hierarchy the act of gaining rights and freedoms is inately masculinizing. It would take some serious anarchist progress and probably the destruction of capitalism to truely fix that. But most people can't even inagine what a world without those looks like so it'll take a WHILE in the best of cases.
Honestly I came into this expecting that this would be another, "it's not because they're a woman, it's bad writing." But all the points you brought up I actually hadn't thought of before. I related to this because I am a Cis male but I always wished I was a girl, I don't wanna do any transgender stuff because i know it wont fix things for me. Im glad to be related to by someone after all these years. Great job, mate! You earned a sub! Edit: OMG YOU LOVE ALL THE SAME STUFF AS ME! Except hazbin hotel but still, YOU'RE AWESOME MATE!
Yeah, I never wished I was a boy but I have had thoughts of changing my pronouns to she/they, but as you said, it'll just make things more complicated (I know that's not directly what you said but still) and it's not like my family would respect it anyway. (I've been told by a few ppl that I seem like the perfect mix between feminine and masculine haha)
The first 20 seconds instantly reminded me of this one video were a RUclipsr charr something talked about the gym leader/elite four member Larry and his outlook on life, talking about how people are too obsessed over not being normal or rather being unique and outstanding.
Something that makes this even more complex is when you take into account different cultural beliefs too. What may be considered masculine or feminine in one culture may be the opposite in a totally different one. For example, there was a time in ancient Roman culture when pants were seen as strictly for women only. Another is how high heels (at least in Europe) used to be seen as men's wear. Even the idea of what certain tasks were for which gender can vary (cooking, politics, etc.). With this in mind, the idea of what makes something or someone masculine or feminine is more complicated than most people realize.
I am very sure pants were considered barbarian clothes in rome {they preferred tunics} And the reason for why something was considered musclin or fem is always the same. Men regarded heels as manly because the use of them in horse riding and to increase hight. Which is very different from why women wear it today
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Pants were considered barbarian clothes in Rome only when they were seen being worn by men. This is because of the non-Roman peoples doing this with that type of clothing, who the Romans tended to think were backwards in their ways. You could say they thought the men of those other cultures were "less manly" because of it. And even if the high heels thing had more of a purpose back then, the point still stands in a way. The idea of what makes something more masculine or feminine still varies across the world. Here's another example. For a long time (even in America), art was considered more of something done by men and men only. Meanwhile, works done by women tended to get rejected more often because it wasn't seen as a proper/appropriate occupation for them to do. This led to many women struggling as starving artists for most of their lives. Those that we do know of (before they started becoming more common/accepted) had gone through a lot of hardship to be recognized.
@@resdent2922 that is my point, the ideas behind musclinty and femininity don't change but their expression can change. And what is your point about art? Art isn't regarded as a feminine thing today Also pants were worn by gauls and the people around them and Romans never thought of them as lacking in musclinty. For the Romans the gauls were very manly while the Greeks and middle Easterns were soft "fem boys"
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl I never said it was strictly a feminine thing. I said it was at least considered at one point only a masculine thing in some places back then. And I never said the Romans "always" thought pants were a feminine thing either. I said "for a time" with this one as well. And even then, you have to take into account what was "barely tolerated" vs what was "discarded out of mutual respect." Battles, trading, ethical beliefs, etc., these all can effect how different cultures see each other. But that doesn't mean a person entirely changes on a personal level just like that from everything they grew up learning. They just get better at recognizing that some things are different with other people and that's okay. They'll do them. It can be quite an interesting difference between viewing someone who practices an entirely different culture from you, and someone who is from the same culture as you and doing things opposite of it. Even if it's unfair, it's still a done thing even today. Hypocritical? Yes. Real life though? Sadly, also yes.
But A lot of Young People, especially Men are Depressed, Anxious, Angry, Sad, Hopeless, Nervous, Feels Worthless, Helpless, Unloved, Hapless, Unhappy, Antisocial, Maladjusted, Maladaptive, Mentally and Emotionally Unhealthy.
Are hyperfeminine characters in hazbin hatel hated, though? Rozie is pretty much adored in fandom, Angel dust as drag gueen/feminine gay is videly praized in fandom. Dont know about someone like Emily, but aside from her underdevelooment i havent seen people hating on her. Carmila is also really maternal and feminine, aswell asgraceful balerina, and i havent seen people hating on her all that much.
*To me it doesn't seem these characters are usually hated or disliked. I think they're more likely ignored or understimated* *But i understand your point and as a tomboy lover myself, i kinda miss when there was lots of people caring about actually feminime female characters rather than tough and masculine female characters*
I have like 5 female cousins that are either as old as me or younger and each one is different. Some of them are girlier than the others and others make me feel like less than a man since she has a better understanding of cars than me but I never thought less of them because of those things, if there’s one thing I want to pass on to everyone here it’s that only your own opinion about yourself matters.
The ones who hate girly things actually lose the point It wasn't the feminite trait and things the oppresion, no, it was because women were forced to be that way. And with that actitude they aren't breaking the mold, they are changing it for a new one
The simple answer is, in a story that involves confrontation the people who usually get out shined are the nurturer, motherly types. The audience wants to see the underdog's be victorious, so anyone who isn't constantly pushing their limits, or holding back for the sake of personal reasons feels like they're weighing the story down for some people. Perspective is a great tool for storytelling but not if it gets in the way of the story's pacing. The audience doesn't want to feel like their time is being wasted, and not everybody watching has enough patience to watch the nurturer type character come into their own.
i don't know, because on Internet you find different group and it's hard to find percentage, also because on Internet you find the more extreme point of view. Also in later year a lot of strong female character in the worst sense of the word come out, which don't give a good reputation. But some points: femininity isn't as flashy as masculine, and often brings dialogue, which often brings discomfort. Depending on how they're written, they can result annoying in contrast with the rest of the cast, but it's really a case by case. Feminine also comes with things a part of the audience will not care about, like clothes, or shopping(always case by case). Also empathy, nurturing, ecc. requires good writing too function, and will fail easily i think and result annoying. Also you always find someone that says something is bad. Maybe in this particular period feminine characters are more scrutinised. Also i want to add that i thing in general feminine quality are less valued than masculine quality. This is the real patriarchy mindset. So is a multicause thing , obviously.
I think this video starts on a somewhat false premise. People generally don't hate feminine characters, they hate it when feminine characters are put into masculine roles, and emulate masculinity while trying to pretend it's femininity. Personally, I'm not up to date on Ninjago, but I don't recall any major criticisms about female characters, though I watched it when I was too young to argue online about it. I also don't remember anyone hating Katara's character, I've never even seen it personally, as far as I recall. I haven't seen Hazbin Hotel in its entirety, but if I had to guess, Charlie just being a happy go lucky lesbian is why people dislike her (not saying I dislike her) because it's just too stereotypical, whereas Lute is much more brash and more like the boys, and of course people often like characters that are like themselves in some way, and Lute being so absurdly violent also makes her a sort of breath of fresh air as so many female characters just aren't like that. Lute isn't trying to be feminine, she's just a violent murderer, which capitalizes on individual traits that are separate from femininity and masculinity, which is a sign of good character writing. As a separate example from the video, people generally seem to like Debbie's character from Invincible, who's a relatively traditional house wife, which is clearly feminine, but she also has her own personality, and people seem to love it when she's on screen. If there's anyone who's feminine but liked, I'd use her as an example, because as mentioned it's not femininity that's the issue, it's trying to veil femininity over masculinity, and treating femininity as superior to masculinity by making men look like useless idiots. Of course, there's a lot that's generalized, but I think the subject itself is treated very generally, so that's what happens with a response to it.
I’ve been a fan of East Asian anime for many years, and it’s a revelation to me that it turns out that someone, somewhere can hate feminine (in body or character) heroine. What? How? Where? I've never seen such madness! Where have you seen this? Apart from the woke society, I have not seen this anywhere . Maybe you should stop communicate with them? And start contact with normal people?
*as a lover of tough and masculine females, i honestly agree with you. i miss when actually feminime female characters were the norme and even beloved*
@fyran6453 Surprised by this considering how much people glorify and justify people like Jeri Hogarth, Mystique, Bonnie Winterbottom, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy
@@fyran6453 they are malicious, wicked, and get away, and alot of times excused for huring people as they are presented being “tragic” or “complex” Is being bad and mischievous asshole who gets away associated with masculinity? Cause I saw someone in another thread say “responsible” female characters are hated. I guess im wondering what’s considered masculine or feminine truly in character writing
Charlie and Amy could have been Beloved characters but the biggest problem is that they over exaggerated there personality,too quirky,too typical pixie dream girl, they're practically one dimensional to the point that they're annoying (Im saying the same for Charlie because her development wasn't bas but also was not enough for most to really take her seriously) Not all Feminine Character's are hated or dismissed,one of which ,Rarity from My little pony,she was a Feminine character,the reason she's appreciated and loved by fan's is because she was well develope and the show gave her many strength's while maintaining being feminine
This exact same problem goes to modern Disney Princess, especially when it comes to this quirky and adorkable traits. And that love or romance will make the characters "weak".
@@jayfranco2383 Well, it's just that Disney now believes that having a love interest or any support will the princess weaker and that women should do things by themselves. That's why they got rid of the Star Boy from Wish because "romance is bad" to them.
@@shonnaa7117 That makes sense,they really ruined what made Disney or most animated from different companies shows theses day's into complete disaster,most,since some did do well Not good writing can make bad influence often times on audiences so it's quite the same that is affecting Hazbin Hotel I'm saying (not good) instead of bad because the show has quite missed potential,but at least manages to the best it can go Thank you for answering my question 👍
One of the important things to consider is the target demographic of the series itself. Stuff like Ninjago, ATLA and Shounen anime are designed for little boys, who generally prefer masculine concepts and traits within media, so they are generally going to prefer female characters with masculine traits to female characters with feminine traits. Oh and I'm also going to be comment number three billion to state that Rarity is best pony, by far.
I’d say its because they usually just aren’t as entertaining to watch. But maybe also because the writers aren’t as good at writing super feminine characters.
A love of subversion, although at this point feminine characters is pretty much the subversion, especially in a strong way. That is another thing, strength. Masculinity often gets seen as strong and feminity as weak, so you see people assuming female characters are weak if they are feminine, or cannot be taken seriously It is why in certain circles I think we are seeing a rise in popularity of villainess characters, as they tend to be only ones who can be feminine and strong.
Heck even as a guy I can relate. I’ve always known that psychologically speaking I was more feminine than everyone else but because I had an interest for masculine hobbies I was perceived as just some average dude. I believe that the issue is that the conservative idea is that femininity is being weak and submissive therefore incapable of being the hero while the liberal is the most stereotypical man you can think of but with boobs (ironically reenforcing the idea that you can’t be a feminine hero). But at least I’m glad characters like Katara exists even if they’re the exception
As a guy I actually love a lot of shows with female protagonists and I fail to see the problem here as long as it doesn't feel clearly forced (unless feeling forced is actually part of the intended narrative). Like... "Star vs. the Forces of Evil" is one of many examples of a really good show that takes all those girly stereotypes to a near-caricature level because it just perfectly fits the actual character - a princess from a magical dimension - and then just works with it within the narrative. Clashing her with both real (non-magical) world and the dark side of her own realm. Not to change her into something different, but to let her make the worlds better in ways no other character would be bothered to. And it doesn't feel forced or stupid (even though the show's name and early episodes may give an impression of it being just silly), she's a great character who becomes wise without becoming any less girly.
I don't think it's that people hate Is femininity. It comes down to character traits. I haven't seen ninjago or Hazben but I love Avatar. People didn't like Katara because at fist she was pushy, Is self righteous, always nagging, ect. But she was written to be a motherly archetype. So she was doing what mothers do when they think they know what's best for there loved ones. But as the series went on she starts seeing she don't need to help them with every little thing and start focusing more on herself while still being motherly to the others. In simpler terms she stopped being a helicopter parent to a loving big sister type. Now for why the characters you call masculine what people like about them is there Confidence. Just look at movies/media like legally blonde, Buffy, Powerpuff Girls, sailor moon. These shows all have very girly girl characters and are very popular even with boys. There's just a problem with writers. That just make feminine girls into the Damsel and distress trope or eye candy, or the token girl of the group( right next to token non-white person).
Fr like wyldfire was raised in the wyldness and so much people say that she is annoying but bro and katara is katara bro why can't people like wyldfire or katara
I used to hate a LOT of female and feminine characters as a kid, and I tbh do think it was just a kind of pick me phase, I later came to believe that’s all it was, and that I was just a sexist little girl😭 But I recently realized, wait, many woman and feminine characters are just… really poorly written? Especially by large companies such as Disney (looking at more recent characters, mostly). They say “girl power!” And then write bland female characters whose only personality is being a powerful or successful woman. Other than that- they aren’t really people. Just girlboss women they can use as representation trophies Also I didnt realize at the time that I was transmasc, so tbh that could also play into that😭 Anyway, another reason I personally think feminine women may be more disliked is because until recently- that’s kind of all we got in mainstream media? Ig when people are starved of representation, it’s kind of the thing they’re most concerned with. Not seeing other people like you might cause you to feel disconnected from the characters you *are* offered, and if you are already set apart by society, it’s kind of a big deal when you finally do get some representation and someone saying “hey, people like you exist, and you’re not wrong for being however different you may be” Anyway, that’s my personal perspective, but I definitely agree that oftentimes people become too extreme and pressure feminine girls not to be so because toxic masculinity or being a pick me (“I don’t wear makeup” girl) or just desperately wanting more representation People should be allowed and encouraged to be who they are, wether or not you can personally relate! (Reposting this from a reply I made just to share my perspective in my own comment 😌)
I didnt started hating feminine things till after my dad yelled at my 13 year old sister. that he will disown her if she came to his house. I was only 8 at the time. I dont remember her crying her eye out but i do remember the story of my step mom saying she couldn't wear make-up till she was 16. Witch started the no make-up thing. But now the story has change where she wore make-up as a child to hide brusie and marks. And they dont remember any of that happening. So no apologies. So femininity felt like a life or death situation for me subconsciously. And sadly i still cant stand it when people say i do act feminine. I know, just ignore it and let me suffer in my hypocrisy.
I just don't like wearing makeup in general, but not cuz it's girly, but cuz I don't wanna have to rely on makeup to make me pretty. But yeah I'm sorry you went through that. My father sucked too. He was and still is a narcissist. I have bad trauma from the times he'd yell at me
@boonAlina thanks and i get you. I just hate the feeling of that oily powder on my face. Dont know how people put that on and not scratch it off. And its wasnt just dad. Step mom was the biggest problem. She didnt want to raise someone else kids. But wanted dad to rasie hers. Glad mom got dad to snip snip after me. Ill be forever his last creation.
I'm on the side that claims that this is a writing issue and not a gender one. Going with Ninjago, the only reason why I dislike Vania is simply because she doesn't seem to have that much to her character in the story; does she have a struggle to solve? something to change about her or her mindset? Doesn't seem to be the case, and that's my problem with her: she doesn't have a purpose in the story outside of being Cole's failed love interest (and I say failed because that little plotline went nowhere). And as for Akita, Nya, Pixal and Skylor: out of these 4, I prefer Nya the most simply because there's more nuance to her character. Pixal had a great evolution since S3 but feels kinda stale in the 11-minute seasons. Akita's backstory is pretty cool, but considering she only appears in the ice chapter, there isn't much to her character outside of that arc. And as for Skylor, well, same with Vania, only difference is she had a role plot wise in the two seasons she was a vital character and that her thing with Kai did go somewhere.
So glad someone finally said this and as a tom boy myself most of my best friends tend to lean more on the girly girl side and I think that's great I don't see why they should be shamed for it
I’m pretty sure it’s “why is SENSITIVITY so hated”, not femininity. All of these characters represent sensitive, responsible and headstrong/caring people, the type of people who’ll tell you to go to bed at 10 pm. Rosie was in hazbin, she was feminine, but she was loved. I’m not going to say these characters are unrealistic because I see a lot of women with this attitude, but I do think people seem to dislike overtly boring/responsible women (at least with men it’s better written to be a stoic giant)
Not me, being a Ninjago fan, that is a girl and is into female strong characters like Nya yet I love Vania. She isn't a skilled fighter like Nya or Skylor but she wants justice and fought against her father and his evil plans. I don't care if she is too feminine I love how sweet she is ❤. And ofc every girl in Ninjago is a queen( except Harumi, I love to hate her). So let girls be like girls, you can act tough,brave and be sweet and kind, too
0:32 I’m going to quote you on that, because that’s a based opinion right there. Still though, I don’t care what personality traits a character has as long as they’re well written. I loved Katara’s character, not because she was a feminine girly girl, but because she was a deep and well written character. I also loved Toph, not because she was a tough and rebellious tomboy, but because she also had a lot of depth and character.
That’s same goes to Genshin Impact Community People hate Ayaka, Barbara, Nilou, Navia, Kokomi & Yunjin because they’re feminine/girly characters but they’re strong and some have good character development But they like Yomiya, Beidou Xinyan because Yoimiya is like tomboyish, Beidou is more Masculine and she’s pirate captain & Xinyan is rock in roll play on her guitar For example, Furina is Hydro Archon & God of Justice, she’s flamboyrant & dramatic and people called her Lady Furina because it’s sign of respect her, but people in the community hate her because she’s spoiled brat, annoying & doesn’t do anything, but until the later she had great character development because of the backstory is so sad and she’s no longer the archon (just like Zhongli, he’s no longer archon), But the fact she’s a human, Focalors is her god counterpart, unfortunately she sacrificed herself in executing because there will no more hydro archon & Nevulitte will absorb her powers. In Japanese Dub, Furina is called herself “Boku” Which pronounces for young boys but it can be for girls who can be tomboy or masculine or anything they want, & she’s Bokkuko character like another female character is Zero Two, Lucoa, Ononoki Yotsugi, Hestia, & Yuuki who also called them “Boku•”, in my opinion Furina is both masculine & feminine at the same time :) On the next is Arlecchino, also known as “Knave” but her real name is Peruere, She’s the fourth of Fatui Harbingers & referred to “Father” by orphans with the House of of the Health, she grew up with orphanage house before she become part of fatui harbingers, people really love her because she’s very masculinity, personality, take care of Lyney, Lynette & Freminet, & very antagonist. I hope the community needs to know about this
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO SAYS THAT THANK YOU!! I LOVE AYAKA SM!! I miss when she was a fan-favorite during the 2021 era when she was introduced and I got sensitive and curious about how Ayaka was hated among Genshin Fans. Don't get me wrong, I like Furina, but she's not my favorite(haven't played the Archon quest part 3-pre??), and I mostly agree about what you said.
One thing everyone always fails to point out, is that masculinity isn't bad. Masculinity isn't in any way shape or form " acting " a certain way. Be it " cold , uncaring and distant. " Those are things we associate with it because of patriarchy. Just like " acting" feminine, doesn't mean being " soft, nice and pleasant" those are just things we associate with it, because patriarchy put MOTHERHOOD at the forefront of women's lives.. which means that naturally, if women are always SEEN being nurturing and caring, and TAUGHT to be nurturing and caring, and EXPECTED to be nurturing and caring... Then that's what's going to be associated with it.. but that's NOT what femininity is.. Being feminine is a PHYSICAL description. NOT a way of life... And always PRAISING and GLORIFYING it as if " being feminine ' automatically = " being a good person " and " being pretty " and " being expressive and radiant and artistic " Is always something that's going to hold society back if we don't stop it. Or accept that masculinity is ALSO all of those things. And yes, I do know that being seen as " inherently artistic and creative " and that " you were born with something that men just CAN'T understand " is probably very pleasing to hear for women.. we have to let that idea go. Because it is harmful. Masculinity is just as beautiful and artsy and pretty. We just need to make the efforts see a world where that is accepted as s fact. And always remember: Femininity and masculinity are PHYSICAL DESCRIPTIONS of people. Not " inherent truths about your soul and the universe. "
Men didn't put motherhood as the most dominant trait a woman should have..... Nature did It's the most important thing about female half of the population for the specie to even continue surviving
Commenting here as a guy who’s listened to male reviewers talk about the same thing. Also agree with the sentiment that we should all just express ourselves as we wish and not worry about expectations others have on us. I think part of the problem is the struggle to find a demographic/target audience. We see a show like Totally Spies and can say with certainty that it’s a show made for girls. Not that guys can’t enjoy it, just that it’s geared more toward girls. Meanwhile, Ninjago, especially early Ninjago where there were hardly any girls, was geared mainly towards boys. Taking it a step further, we could definitely say that Dragon Ball Z was a guys show. Again, girls can enjoy these things, but they weren’t necessarily the target audience. Then we have LoK. While I cant cite the exact vid on RUclips, I remember learning how Nickelodeon saw Avatar as being more of a guy’s show, so they were iffy about Korra. But it turned out that Korra was a hit. In retrospect, it seems Korra was “masculine” enough to appeal to guys. If there are more of these guy shows than gals shows, and if these guy shows create girls with more masculine than feminine traits, then that could be interpreted as saying traditionally feminine traits aren’t as valuable. Then again, it could also be an issue that male writers write women the same as they would a man, not taking their general femininity into consideration. In other words, they write a man in a woman’s body. To illustrate this, I remember a meme about the female characters designed for the male gaze vs the female gaze. The design for the female gaze was very feminine, very classy, with a beautiful ornate dress. The design for the male gaze, in contrast, was more revealing. More skin and more attitude. Men aren’t too different. Men, for example, can either be a man’s man (try to impress other men) vs a lady’s man (try to impress women).
This is just... Wrong. People don't hate "femininity". Well, I can't say that, there is a major trend going on lately by a certain community that is bent on erasing femininity and feminine beauty. But the audience at large doesn't dislike "femininity". What most of us don't like are stick-in-the-mud characters. Your example of Katara is just that, a stick-in-the-mud character, when compared to Toph. Toph is more fun-loving, and yet still feminine, than Katara is. Katara acts like a wet blanket more often than not, and THAT'S why people like her less. Not hate, just like less. Katara is my fourth favourite character of the show, behind Zuko, Toph, and Iroh (not in that order). I like her more than Aang, the main character, and a male. A perfect example that completely refutes your idea: Ty Lee. She is practically the epitome of femininity in that show, even more girly than Katara, though less "motherly". And yet she is an all time fan favourite from my understanding. Same with Suki. Yes, she's a fighter, but she's also still very feminine, and one of her most known lines is "I'm a warrior, but I'm a girl, too". And she has the authority of a motherly figure, too, despite being well liked. The reason? She isn't a wet blanket, stick-in-the-mud style character like Katara. Noticing the pattern? All the female characters that people like more AREN'T wet blanket characters. They're characters that are more open to fun, taking risks, getting dirty. The ones that aren't liked (and "aren't" is suspect as heck, Katara is well-loved) are only that way because they tend to rain on the parade. Even when they're right, they tend to be killjoys.
Honestly Vania is still pretty brave even though she isn't trained in combat. Though she was fangirling about meeting the ninja she's implied to be pretty young so it makes sense. Let's not forget it was also her birthday so of course she was excited. She still became the ruler of Shintaro after the ninja left and tried to help however she could. She's a minor character, but a pretty good one. I don't see why anyone would even put energy into hating her. I can kinda see why people were annoyed with Sally, but she was having a total mental breakdown cause she thought her parents called the cops on her after she disobeyed them and stole their car and she was also very young. I'd like to see the haters in that situation. Both are younger girls who are still a bit immature.
I added subtitles so if any part was hard to understand, there ya go 😊
thank you so much!
holi :v
Fun fact: in the ATLA comic Katara and the Pirate's Silver, they actually address this mindset! Katara feels self conscious for not being "as tough" as Toph. She ends up going on a side quest, but when she comes back to the gaang and she admits to her underlying feelings, they all go without a beat, "Bruh Katara you are the baddest bitch here" including Toph. None of the others saw her as weaker for her femininity, she was just as strong and badass as Toph was. It made me so happy.
Katara comes out as a badass because she usually is so caring, but when she has to fight she's an amazing master water bender
She was the emotional backbone of a group of child-militia, that went on to take down the most powerful empire on earth
when she herself was also a child
That's no easy feat
She didn’t exactly earn that toughness tho. They just kinda give her it bc the creators are massive feminist.
I didn’t appreciate Avatar enough when it was on
@@zzodysseuszz
What does that even actually mean?
This is why I love the magic girl genre. Its soo unapologetically girly from the outfits, the themes, the romance
In my opinion another reason why these characters are hated is because of age of these shows public (I know, sounds weird). They're mostly for teenagers/kids and young adults in hazbin case and that's perfect age for hating your gender traits especially among girls. As you said feminine traits are well... Feminine! Mostly emotional and focused on others and surroundings. Emphaty sounds cool but young girls would rather like to be described as logical and strong because that makes them more unique. Kids don't see full walue of feminine traits and society don't emphasize them enough and we learn to love these traits by ourself much later.
That’s actually interesting because Aang’s (who is shown briefly at the beginning as having feminine traits) “feminine” traits can be interpreted as him being young and perhaps naive. I also wouldn’t say that Katara (out of all these shows atla is the only one I recognized) was super feminine, she was more so girlish. Characters I would describe as definitely more feminine would include Ty Lee and Yue, who are more adult-ified. Though OP had some good thoughts, I think people hating on the girl characters depends on the intersection of age and gender, because “womanly” characters have a sexual appeal making them viewed as “just eye candy”. There’s definitely a lot to be said on this topic, and I think it is more of a fandom thing than irl.
I agree!
I’d say it’s less about feeling special and more about not being considered submission to another human just because of your birth. I’ve literally had guy friends tell me im inferior to them just because im a girl. Why would i want to be praised for being caring and kind if it’s coming from a group of people who think im serving my “role”? Often when the guys know you can actually challenge them, they respect you. We need to embrace both traits, honestly indont view emotions as feminine or masculine cause ive seen guys that are way more emotional than some girls. Honestly i think if we got rid of most religions this stuff would resolve itself. For example, the pygmy people thought of men and women as equals but they have very little lore and religion cause life was too hard to bother with that stuff. If a woman wanted to marry or a man want to marry a woman, he needed to offer a replacement for the woman that the family would be losing since she was considered a valuable member that helped keep the family going, the same as the men. Not too long ago, men in myanmar considered women lower than dogs. What intelligent young girl would purposely want to lower herself to be a pedestal for someone else to stand on? Until we can see where women are respected regardless of if theyre tough or if their compassionate, i think most girls are going to veer to a badass character just because there are so many times that theyre made to feel less than or weak compared to guys. I know too many kind women who allow themselves to be ran over by others, because it’s not “feminine” to express rage or dissatisfaction at being treated like crap and having your kindness being taken advantage of. Of course, this can apply to kind men as well, the system is toxic to them in a whole different way that i cant even imagine. They have to be able to take insults, not cry if they feel sad, and put up a strong but brittle armor all the time.
@@MA-ir8oc You might enjoy "My Farm by the Palace" on Tapas. The protagonist has overtly feminine traits that make her endearing and assertive at the same time. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can take advantage of so easily either.
There's a manhwa called "My Farm by the Palace" on Tapas, where the female protagonist is both empathetic and assertive. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can talk down to either.
She acts a lot like how Disney's Cinderella did when they received the invitation to the ball.
I don't think its the femininity that's hated. Rosie from hazbin hotel is pretty feminine and she's loved. I believe that the real reason is that the female characters are usually very blunt and boring. They're usually just tropes and that happens even with more masculine women. Unlike the male characters, the females have no depth and sometimes, you look at a male character and think "this could have happened to a female character" but for some reason, it never does. They're always just following a trope with female characters.
Other characters are also Fluttershy and Rarity from mlp. Also the old babrie movies.
COMPLETELY agree with this! I think it's just the lack of character depth personally, and not so much the femininity itself.
Rosie is a perfect exmaple! She turns stereotypical gossipy lady into a place for others to vent. She gives advice from her experience and she does order people around, she unifies them. She knows when to make a stand and when to let her people decide. She runs a true democracy and rather than pushing her people to do things, she gives them the space for them to be free while keeping order. Others being able to vent to her and her making time to make them feel special, prevent more conflicts from occurring in the community. Sometimes people just need to feel cared for and heard and she does it perfectly.
@@forest2727 Yeah but all the main characters from MLP are girls, so of course they'd be loved to a degree.
@@boonAlina yes but the masculine mares aren't more adored than the feminine mares and there are a lot of male characters who are very powerful and important even though they are side characters. In fact, the most powerful being, after the tree/elements of friendship (which is more of a concept than a character), is Discord, a male. So I believe they are liked as characters, not because they have no competition with male protagonists.
Ive seen this problem on a personal level. As a femme lesbian I’ve met people think they can say who I am and try to press unflattering stereotypes out of hate. I love femininity and see it as beautiful and those thinking the only way to oppose sexism is to demonize femininity have lost the plot. They’re falling into sexism without being honest with themselves.
As for definitions, there’s nothing wrong with yours but I’d like to add my perspective 🙂. I think personality traits shouldn’t be seen as gendered. However expressions of gender in as in, fashion, media culture, and aesthetics have gendered qualities.
Therefore I define femininity as wearing feminine clothes and presenting more traditionally feminine.
However your point still stands under that definition. As more girly-girls characters are heavily “mean-girlized” and seen as weak even if in reality those stereotypes don’t add up.
Thank you for not gendering personality traits, girls are not masculine because they can stand up for themselves and boys are not feminine for caring about others. Those are traits that can be embraced by either in a healthy way. The less you feel like a gender and the more you feel like a person the better. We’re all just people with different traits and experiences.
Well that's not exactly what feminine and masculine mean. As I said, both genders can be fem or masc. Fem and masc are not genders. That's the reason why a man would have a feminine trait if he was super empathetic. But that doesn't make him any less of a man. Feminine traits are not female traits, they are just traits. And either gender can have them. (Sorry I just feel you may have misunderstood me and I had to clarify.)
@boonAlina ok i think I understand what you we’re getting at.
@Soothsayer-ll6pm But what is a man being a man and a woman being a woman? Until that is clear, I don't really think gendered roles make much difference as long as both people agree to what roles they're going to do. For me a man produces semen and can get a woman pregnant, and a woman can get pregnant and carry a child, but beyond that it pretty much stops there. Yes men are more equipped to to do hard labor, but there are many tribal societies where women did the bulk of the labor albeit in a group setting. As a woman, I don't really care about traditional gender roles, because my experience of them came from a religion that treats women in a toxic way(desert trio, I'm looking at you). I don't want kids or have my role as caring for the house, I'd rather repair and fix stuff than clean and cook. I wouldn't rule out a relationship, but am not interested in one at this point. I'm sure many women want a protector, but many don't as well because we shouldn't have to be protected from other men, men should be civilized enough ( as many are, but just as many unfortunately are not) that their mere presence should not scare a woman. Also many men think they're protectors just by being men, but have next to no combat training and are honestly scared of authority figures and can barely stand up for themselves much less someone else.
Now I will say if someone wants kids, having a set idea of who does what is great, but just as a man needs to know how to clean the house, the woman should know how to change the oil. That way if anything happens to the man ( or woman) they dont have to rush immediately into a relationship which could possible endanger the kids. Many women rush into toxic relationships in this scenario, just as many widowers might rush to get a new wife so they don't have to care for the kids. The kids usually suffer in this situation.
I present feminine in looks but I nerd out about warships, fighter jets and muscle cars. I actually enjoy combining fashion and these things in one aesthetic and philosophy.
as a guy, I say that having a female friend who can nerd out with you about warships is a damn satisfying feeling
You sound like you belong at r/NonCredibleDefense.
I honestly think it's weird that personality traits and hobbies/lifestyles are divided into "masculine" and "feminine". The whole thing just seems...dated, if you ask me. Like, pink isn't a masculine or feminine color, it's just a color. Why assign gender to everything? Y'know?
Well like I said, feminine isn't inherintly a "female" thing. You can be a man who is super feminine or a woman who is super masculine. They're really just... ways people think and how they work?
I think it's mainly about the writing, and not so much the femininity itself. In Danganronpa, I know tons of people who love Celeste, Kaede, Sonia, Mikan, and Miu just as much as others love Mukuro, Kyoko, and Sakura. I think it's mostly a matter of taste, or where you're looking, but I think if the writers give both sides of the spectrum good development, both can be equally as appealing
I don't think Charlie is a good example since she's the main character, and people tend to gravitate towards the supporting characters / antagonists / minor characters (so many people ADORE Rosie in case you haven't noticed, and I adore her, too) moreso than the protagonist it seems. Even going back to Danganronpa for a minute, none of the protagonist have nearly as many fans as any of the other characters- even if you combine the fans of Hajime, Makoto, and Kaede, you won't get nearly as many as characters like Nagito, Toko, Gonta, Byakuya, Ibuki, Fuyuhiko, Kaito, or Kokichi have individually.
Also, Charlie absolutely has an angsty backstory (hello? Lucifer? Lilith?? Having to see your people die every year??) But even then, you mention Angel Dust but he's incredibly feminine (though I suppose not by your definition of it, which makes sense)
If you want a nurturing, empathetic, and giving character that's very well-loved, just look at Kirumi Tojo! She's incredibly selfless and supportive, while also dressing feminine- she may not be pink, but I don't think that's a requirement for this, right?
Kirumi Tojo being one of the least popular characters lol
I don't think Danganronpa is that well written tbh but that's subjective
Reject any notion of femininity and masculinity.
Embrace humanity. And above all, embrace yourself.
This is facts if you think like this everything is just more fun
Femininity and masculinity are inherent to humanity
@@LaChicadelaMalta what parts of it?
No
No. Femininity and masculinity are okay and necessary.
Rather we should say: "reject female narcissism, reject male narcissism." "Embrace healthy masculinity, embrace healthy femininity"
Katara has anger issues and thats why shes my favorite character
Yeah! she shined when she tried to kill the general that killed her mother but held back. That made go from feeling mixed about her to loving her. And when she tied up azula in the frozen ice thing at the end was so cool. I think what makes ppl dislike her is her stickler aspect, especially against ang, sokka and tough who have comic relief aspects - so she's seen as ending their jokes. I think It would of been interesting if they explored her taking on the mom role at such a young age more, she is only 13/14. (Maybe they did I just couldn't remember) The rest of team avatar, bar zuko, are still allowed to act juvenile/goofy and she wasn't given that chance in the same way.
@@Mariathinking she laughs at their jokes sometimes.
@@Mariathinking i read all that and yeah you're right I know
@Mariathinking I think people dislike her because her idealistic nature can come off as contradictory in a war zone. Like when she prompted Haru to save the old man, and he ended up turning him in. Sure, she had no way of knowing that would happen, but she adopts the same attitude when she tried to save him and the other Earthbenders, using her ideals as a means to encourage them to fight. Then there was the episode where she pretended to be the Painted Lady and teased Sokka about his schedule in spite of their deadline, not to mention her interference likely cost them precious time.
I saw an educational sketch show called "Horrible Histories," there was a sketch of WWII housewife who resorted to eating zoo animals because food was so scarce and one of a WWI soldier who mentioned that in the trenches soldiers ate bread made of sawdust (Ersatz bread), coffee made from coal tar, and pepper made from ashes, alongside a milkman who diluted his in the toilet due to the shortages. Katara's a stark idealist, but in a war zone, you're probably better off being an extreme pragmatist.
@@ThePrincessCHI love Katara so much but I agree one of her character flaws was she was a bit self righteous and hypocritical at times. Sometimes the rules didn’t apply to her in some instances if SHE felt it was in the right. Disregarding other people’s feelings. For example, when she told Sokka he didn’t care for their mother as much as she did because he wasn’t revengeful towards her executor. But I still love her because everyone has flaws and I think ATLA did a good job show casing realism in their characters.
As a teenage girl, I was shamed for not liking typical girl thing like shopping and make-up. As an adult, I can realize it came from the passing of my mother, and so no feminine figure in my life other than my grandmother (that I was shamed for "stealing her style), my anxiety and depression, my low self-esteem and my lack in communication that made me an isolated kid. Hell, I was even asked by my sport teacher to ask girls in my class about certain stuff regarding period because I shouldn't be missing class because of a little blood. Like, the terrible pain I suffered for a week wasn't a reason in itself.
Anyway, as a 26 years old woman, I can't wait for warmer time to put on dresses or wear long hair. I'm still not comfortable with make up or jewelry but I can now choose my own clothing. And I don't care anymore to show that I like anime, to act a little too childish, to fully express my emotions or to be kind with people. Because that's what save my life, not the "you need to be special" bullshit. I'm happy to be a woman, whatever that means, and I'm grateful to be able to work with kids all day. They give me my daily dose of positivity and contact I need, that I'm too icky to ask of adults. And, I mean, kids are just too cute, anything can become an adventure or a prize. I can just be myself and enjoy my day, that's should be anyone goal in life. Instead of playing the victim card all the time.
This is just my opinion but outwardly feminine characters like Lottie(princess & the frog), Rarity, Princess Bubblegum, Starfire, etc are all beloved staples in their respective fandoms. I think much of the hatred given to these characters is A) classic case of “getting in the way of my ship” or B) They’re simply one dimensional or fall into character tropes that people don’t enjoy (such as the manic pixie dream girl/adorkable trend). I personally don’t find the inverse(tomboys) to always be well liked either, and it really comes down to their characterization and personality most of the time. There’s a reason tests such as the “sexy lamp” exist; if a female character can be replaced by a sexy lamp, she’s not a character.
I’m a trans girl, so I have a bit of a specific perspective. I got bullied for being girly, but that was because everyone saw me as a boy. When I transitioned (Which like none of my friends found surprising much to my surprised Pikachu face), as much as I wanted to be as feminine as I liked, I’ve struggled with fully expressing it mostly out of the fear and anxiety that was brewed in me after years of bullying at school. When I want to wear a dress in public I have to psych myself up because I am so fucking terrified of people. So to me, girls who are able to be girly and own it are bloody brilliant. I wish I could have that confidence. But there are some things no amount of anxiety meds seem to be able to help.
Feminine characters aren't annoying, but overly feminine characters are. Same with masculinity. Doesn't matter if these characters are female or male. Masculinity and femininity are arbitrary (when it comes to how people actually are), so people who don't have any masculine traits or any feminine traits are (or seem) fake/inhuman to me. Someone can be very masculine-leaning or very feminine-leaning, but if their entire personalities are their genders, it gets really annoying.
Well said. I feel that it's also annoying when a character personality is being "the opposite of their gender". If the writers make the entire appeal of a girl "she's not like other girls". It comes across as kind of misogynistic. Like women are bad and naturally weak. People should stop thinking about writing good female characters and just think about them as characters. But I'm a guy so I don't really know how girls feel about it.
*gender expressions
@@Stankyl0saurus I think it ultimately stems from writers trying to say that not all women and girls are the same, but they just go a little too far with it and make them even more masculine than most male characters, which gets into "caricature" territory.
There’s an anime called Apothecary diaries, which has a very well written female lead (her name is Maomao) like even people who don’t like anime admit that she’s very well written. Like there are a lot of videos on RUclips that talk about her character, that’s why I’m not going to talk much about her, I recommend checking out one of these videos on RUclips if you want to know more about her
I think that people also dont like stickler type characters. You know - competent, doesnt like fun, prioritises the safe route, organised, overall bland. Its why scott summers, leonardo and robin are disliked compared to their teamates. Tbf, ppl love team azula and they are quite girl, epsecially Tai Lee.
I think stickler type characters dont take on calls to action as rapidly as the tomboy/lancer type characters because the sticklers are more hesitant and dont like to break the rules.
There are ways of making feminine characters break rules and be compelling ie rarity from mlp or Miss Piggy, i think it takes a certain skill set to write fabulous characters.
youtube.com/@sippingteayuh?si=WNc-MmshFvyc8JIl this channel show cases these feminine characters that ppl adore well.
I love Charlie and Katara what’s going onnnn😂😭
back in the day in my friend group everyone always wanted to be Katara. I was more the odd one out because I always wanted to be Toph.
It could also be in part because of what other femenine chacaters have been like that have nothing to do with the carefully writen examples you've given.
Characters that are a list of what misogynistic writers think of woman, and are written without any nuance or to be explicitly annoying. Imagine Chichi, from Dragon Ball Z, where her only porpuse of existing is giving birth to new plot poits (Gohan and Gotten) and showing how boring life without fighting is, how annoying it is to be normal and be the butt of every "I hate my wife" joke ever. That's just the writers ranting about their marriages instead of going to therapy.
Another example I can think of is Amy Rose during certain games. She is everything girly and annoying because, well, she's an obligatory love interest created in the 80's so she's what a bunch of computer nerds imagine that girls are like.
With time, the idea of this bothersome female characters that don't really serve a porpuse gets drilled into our heads, so as soon as we see any of those girly characteristics anywhere, our predisposition is to think about those bad examples. Amy has had a couple of games where she's carefully written and gained a lot of depth, but every time she appears people are quick to dismiss her because that's what we have been doing for so long.
It's funny because quote to the Japanese instruction booklet, Amy rose described as an "energetic or optimistic tomboy". in sonic fighters, where the piko piko hammer was introduce , also explains why she was given the hammer as a weapon in order to strengthen her tomboyish nature.
Yeah, I guess it does stem from shonen anime writing women terribly for generations
What's ironic about Chichi and Bulma is that sayians like strong women.
@@boonAlinawhat are your thoughts on Wasp from Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes and Max from Stranger Things?
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Not really into Marvel.
Max is pretty cool. It's nice that she's a tomboy that's perfectly fine dressing feminine when the occasion calls for it.
i think this ties into the whole "not like other girls" phase a lot of teenagers go through, where they are convinced they have to stand out and not do/like girly stuff that "other girls" are doing.
Lucy from the Fallout show is a good example of a feminine protagonist and how that can be successful with the public.
thats a nice perspective on Femininity. Though i think it could still be a bit deeper than that, rather than just ppl like different things, who care about the world. Like i wonder if ppl like masculine female characters only in fiction and not in real life? or are those examples that you point out are made with male audience in mind so it come out that way.
I will say as a somewhat masculine female ( by masculine stereotypes) most men are scared of me. Many have told me if i ever marry, i’ll have to let the guy do the home repairs even if he does them worse than me, just to spare his ego. My body doesnt physically look masculine, which i think scares them more. However, i’ve noticed most secure men are not scared and tend to be respectful to me. Ive had a former guy friend tell me they want someone to boss him around, but he wants to be dominant. Makes no sense, either get bossed around or boss someone around or work together as a team, but dont expect someone to play mental gymnastics of being subtly bossy. Very insecure, because even when he needed someone to stand up for him and i did, he couldnt even do the rest of the leg work and stand up for himself ( and i wouldve helped him at the time too, cause it aint easy standing up for yourself).
@@MA-ir8oc, that’s the dream for many by the way
I talk from experience, when I say that being surrounded by girly girl things and having it pushed on me, when I was clearly more tomboyish made me resent the more feminine end of the spectrum as a kid/teen. I resented it so much, that most my OCs would be mistaken for guys 95% of the time.
And I was glad to see the women in media getting a bit more tomboyish... until I realized they were actively over-correcting and treating the girly girls even worse than I used to be treated back then. It's going too far. Femininity isn't a weakness and being tomboyish isn't either.
Exactly. I think I mostly hated anything girly because of my toxic religious upbringing.
Lots of super feminine characters in anime I'm pretty sure. People don't hate them
Sure but not many people like 'em either. You always see a female character getting praised, and guess what? It's always a female character that has a bunch of masculine hobbies, or is a warrior. Like Olivier Armstrong from FMAB, or Erza from Fairytail, or Haruhi from OHSHC, etc.
Would definitely mention Relena Peacecraft, Lacus Clyne and Kudelia Aina Bernstein for this
@@boomgirlbucko Have you seen "The Apothecary Diaries"?
Because the only reason they like them is because they’re attractive -_-
We why they aren't hated
🍑
It’s interesting that the feminine characters you mentioned are so disliked but no one really hates on Starfire for that and she’s probably more feminine than all of them.
I don't see how Lute and Kyoshi are unfeminine, they both wear make-up and a dress!
She's talking about personality, not looks
Kyoshi's outfit looks a bit like samurai armor, though.
Their clothes aren't what I was referring to. Cuz they both sure don't _act_ girly (which is completely fine)
@boonAlina it's ok for men to look ugly bc no one cares about men
women are put on a higher standard bc people actually care about them. there's a reason why "female protagonist" is a category in most gaming stores but not "male protagonist"
Is it because it's ok for men to look ugly but for women they must always be attractive because that's all misogynists care about when it comes to women?
It's just said af tbh Gear of War protagonist looks like a bulldog, no one complains, but when they saw women with same Archetype, EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MIND!!!!
Touché
I feel you on the "ashamed of femininity traits" headspace. In fact, Katara is a character that resonates strongly with me when it comes to this topic.
I used get really annoyed with Katara. Never hated her, but she was my least favorite of the main cast for a while. I realize that this is because I actually related to Katara a lot (sweet but hot-tempered when crossed), but when I was first watching the show, I was 12-years old and projected myself onto her unconsciously, and I was not happy about that at the time because I was not happy with who I was as a person and the way I handled things. Now though, she's become one of my favorite characters because I love the way she develops over the course of the series. And since I am much more comfortable with who I am as a person now, I feel great about relating to her :)
Apologies for the mini rant lol
There's a manhwa on Tapas called "My Farm by the Palace." The protagonist has overtly feminine traits that make her endearing and assertive at the same time. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can talk down to either.
She acts a lot like Disney's Cinderella did when they received the invitation to the ball.
Maybe because the "feminine" characters are written as how men and disconnected women see femininity. As a little kid watching avatar, I related more with toph than I did with katara. Katara had this foolish attitude throwing, bossy girl attitude that I as a little girl just saw as foolish and knew women I looked up to weren't like that. There's nothing wrong with being girly, but there is a problem when the female character is just everything bad about being a girl.
You might enjoy "My Farm by the Palace" on Tapas. The protagonist has overtly feminine traits that make her endearing and assertive at the same time. She's sweet and sensitive but doesn't undervalue her femininity. There's a chapter where she's holding she's instructing some high born women how to make dandelion wine, and when people started questioning why she would ask women of their status to do something like that her response is that they spend so much time dedicating themselves to others that they might forget how to treat themselves, "the most important person in the world." She's not a warrior, but she's not the type of person you can talk down to either.
Bro you did Katara dirty
Bruh, Katara is more than that!
@@yay29823, bruhette*
Or some shit like that
@@MiracleTimes07
Yes, but let's not pretend like she isn't like that. That was a whole plot point in the Runaway episode. Toph was making bank scamming Fire Nationers, Katara was being prudish and was against the "fun" thing, then changed her mind because she wanted to be seen as cool, only to regret it when this leads to her and Toph getting caught by Combustion Man.
*inserting myself as soon as possible* I like Charlie more than all of the male characters combined
I find it interesting that you included Charlie on the list of feminine characters with Lute as her opposite. Although I know that this video is talking more about personality traits, and as the ones you listed, Charlie is definitely more feminine and Lute more masculine. It’s interesting because Charlie is definitely more liked than Lute (from what I’ve seen) but that might just be because Lute is a massive jerk. But speaking of how they dress (and I know this isn’t the point of the video) Charlie has both a masculine name and wears a suit, while being very feminine in her personality.
Great video! You touched on a topic that not a lot of people talk or think about.
I was more of a tomboy in elementary and had all tomboy friends. I loved the Barbie movies though! And never told my friends that because I felt too embarrassed about liking something that was girly. So silly that as a little girl I was embarrassed about liking something girly.
I think writers may be thinking of their target audience when writing characters. If they want an audience that both girls and boys will watch, then a main female character can’t be girly or too feminine otherwise boys and tomboys may feel embarrassed to watch or wouldn’t even want to watch. But idk! That’s just my perspective.
(Edit: word correction)
I was rolling with you until you said you were a little girl after just saying you were a tomgirl.
A tomgirl is a boy interested in traditionally girly things. A tomboy is a girl interested in traditionally boyish things.
Oh - that’s what I meant! I meant to say I was a tomboy. I didn’t even realize I flipped that.
I’m glad you said something!
@@MrRachaelm2013 And just to let you know, no masculine person should ever have to feel ashamed of liking anything or anyone feminine, regardless of what people say.
I know i am late to this
As a male who loves Shonen, there are a lot of male leads who get shit on. When there character who are nice or silly, they are hated but have a when characters who are dark are favorite there alot anime characters are like that. So i talk both male and female friends above characters they prefer darker characters, badass characters who are no mercy, or rude characters at that or just straight up toxic . So maybe when they see feminine character they too nice or what every because when Charlie had that moment when he turns and rage people wouldn't stop talking about that even luffy gotten hate because he gear 5 was silly not cool but silly evem this it was Badass thats just my opinion i guess
I have a completely different impression. Every time a more masculine female character appears, the entire Internet shouts that woke culture hates femininity.
In other words, female characters can't win.
And also,Luth is not "masculine". It makes no sense to me to only categorize character's personnality traits as either masc or fem and nothing else. Humans are more complex than just masc or fem
@@linsangchannel5923 EXACTLY
It's not so much Femininity that is hated as it's characters with Feminine traits who are written to be weak or ineffectual. Because many writers sadly cannot conceive of ways to communicate Femininity and Strength/Competence at the same time.
There are more ways to be 'Strong' than mere physical strength, but they are often more difficult to write. Strength of character, emotional fortitude and the capacity to support others are all very good ways to write a Feminine character who is also strong. Any brute can just punch their way through a single fight, it takes a strong person to deal with a stressful or demanding situation for an extended period of time.
I'm currently writing a story with two leads, one Male and one Female. The Male character resolves most of his obstacles through fighting, but he still leans on the Female character for emotional support when fighting isn't enough, showing he trusts her enough to let his guard down and be vulnerable. Her struggles are more through Communication and having the Courage to pursue her goals non-violently.
That's not to say she never fights, but she always seeks a non-violent solution when possible. Her strength comes through having the emotional endurance to push through the tough times with the Male character, and in turn they influence one another. She teaches him to be more Communicative and Social, where he teaches her to be Courageous and Driven. Sort of like a Yin/Yang situation, but one is never put down to glorify the other, they need each other and neither can make the journey alone.
That sounds really cool. Let me know when you finish it :)
@@boonAlina Thank you. Will do. :)
One of the challenges I made for myself was to write the Female lead as someone who embraces alot of Feminine traits (such as empathy, courtesy, communicative, caring, loves art and is fond pink in her attire) but is also portrayed as capable and strong-willed. She is feminine but you'd never call her weak or passive. :)
@@PlanetZoidstar What you are writing is like Fire Emblem Sacred Stones twins Eirika and Ephraim
@@DARKMalice9000 It's actually set in the Beastars universe.
@@PlanetZoidstar Oh that is cool ^^
As a new male writer, I guess, writing female characters is the toughest part. Atleast for me. That's why I am thinking to taking guidance and help from my cousin sister to write them.
I don't see Lute as a Tomboy appearance wise she's the most feminine you can get she's just a strong woman.
I loved katara growing up. She was and is one of my favorite characters in avatar. I was so surprised when i found out that apparently a lot of people hated her but i think sarcastic chorus pretty much hit the nail on the head on why (other than misogyny). Being the motherly “heart” of the group, she usually gets delegated to being the one who has to do the unfun jobs of keeping the group in line and that can sound like nagging. And when you’re always the one who has to do this, it makes any offenses you do that kinda goes against it seem way bigger than if someone else in the group did it, because then it has hypocritical connotations. Regretfully, a lot of femine characters are usually delegated to the role of the heart, so the same thing usually applies to them. Maybe if we started making feminine characters some other type, like maybe the lancer or the brains of the group, then there might be some better reception
I love charlie. She is my favorite from hazbin.
I’m the girl in between I love to be tomboy and girly the next. Ps I am straight so I always liked boys I was never gay. I just act masculine sometimes and girly too. I was a full on tomboy growing up. And now I also like to dress up and look pretty. I love to wear dresses and straight my hair I also love to put on makeup. Like any other girl. But also love sports like soccer basketball and tennis. I guess the best being a tomboy. Your friend group is a boy. So I was actually hanging out with cute boys. I did had a crush on 1 of them later in years he admitted that he had a crush on me too. We’re just friends still we decided to stay as friends.
Yeah same. My personality is pretty much right in the middle.
Like, you won't catch me wearing make up or skirts, but you also won't catch me talking about trucks and sports lol.
From my experience as a guy watching all sorts of shows there appears to be a dichotomy. It mostly depends on who your show appeals to the most. While a show like ATLA appeals to both sides, it likely appeals more to young males, and with how Katara acted in the very beginning it kinda makes sense why she was hated. I should know i hated her too until i grew up.
...then on the other side theres Korra who just came off as annoying because of her attitude and temper.
Well duh, do people forget that a character is supposed to start out with flaws??
I think one of the reasons some of these characters may have been disliked is because they were girly characters in shows marketed towards boys.
As a writer, I've created many characters, both male and female, and thinking of my female characters specifically in relation to this video, I think I've created a good mix. My goal is always to create unique characters so having all my characters be masculine or feminine would work against that. Two of my characters come to mind when I think of more tomboyish girls, but the lead character of my fantasy story is more traditionally feminine. A lot of the stories I write are superhero stories and I like writing feminine girls with superpowers that are traditionally masculine. People expect the tomboy to be a heavy hitter so it's fun to subvert expectations.
UM I LOVE KATARA, and also a reason why she was disliked was probably cuz she was like motherly and bossy, while toph was more laid back and chill. and also korra got a fair share of hate for being like a pick me and stuck up.
That's what character development is for I guess 😊
Well, I also like Katara but I think it also has to do with the way she dealt with her traumas, she used her trauma of losing her mother as a way to justify her bad behavior and well sure it is something that affects someone for life but she uses it way too often (it reminded me of “The Edge of 17” when Nadine tried to use her father’s death as an excuse for not bringing homework but her teacher asked her when it happened and it was a couple of years before and he said he had an expiration date for using the “dead relative” excuse), or because she made a scene whenever someone wanted to do things in a way that was different of hers
@@boonAlina yeah its not cuz katara was feminine that she got hate, and korra got hate and she isnt feminine
@@lauracerqueiramachado8979 yeah i mean it did affect her a lot, but at this point shes creating a label for herself that oh its because of that, shes kinda letting that affect her and more than it does or making it seem that way
@@lauracerqueiramachado8979tu ver as porcarias americanas justifica tu passar pano pra lacração, agr tudo faz sentido
I would also like to add the racial dynamic to this as well. Notice how Katara and Korra get the most hate outta anyone in their series. Korra is masculine just like Toph yet those same traits are hated on Korra. WOC suffer the most from being judged on their femininity and or masculinity, especially if you’re darker skin.
i disagre korra is one of the most hated characters in the ATLA universe and she is inspired from women mma fighter and Katara is one one of the most loved characters in ATLA way more them Azula you is less feminie (according to you're definition) but great vid none the less
Azula is quite feminine tough, she is an excellent example of a ruthless, assertive, yet feminine character, not hyper feminine, but she's no Tomboy
No Katara used to be heavily hated, she only started gaining love after that one video talking about her femininity came out
@@boomgirlbucko when? I've been in the ATLA/LOK fandom for over 12 years and never saw any of this hate for Katara. She's loved if anything
@@turulszervac1714 Then you were living under a rock. And also the Internet wasn't as prominent back then. But the reason the hated her was cuz of two comments she said which were "too bad you can't see them, Toph!" And something to Sokka about not being as close with mom as she was. But also cuz they didn't like how she was motherly. Those comments can be excused cuz she was literally like 12 and 13
Katara? She's very unpopular for a main character
It could be the audiences for the shows (though Ive only seen the avatar shows)
didnt realize people hate Kitara like that. I do know people Love Azula who is feminine.. well more so Evil queen archetype = Toxic Femininity
My personal theory is that since masculinity is heavily tied to dominance and we live in a world built on dominance hierarchies, femininity is descriminated against by default. In a Society built on hierarchy the act of gaining rights and freedoms is inately masculinizing. It would take some serious anarchist progress and probably the destruction of capitalism to truely fix that. But most people can't even inagine what a world without those looks like so it'll take a WHILE in the best of cases.
One of my favorite parts about Hazbin Hotel is the feminine energy both Charlie and Sir Pentious bring especially when together. It’s adorable.
Honestly I came into this expecting that this would be another, "it's not because they're a woman, it's bad writing." But all the points you brought up I actually hadn't thought of before. I related to this because I am a Cis male but I always wished I was a girl, I don't wanna do any transgender stuff because i know it wont fix things for me. Im glad to be related to by someone after all these years. Great job, mate! You earned a sub!
Edit: OMG YOU LOVE ALL THE SAME STUFF AS ME! Except hazbin hotel but still, YOU'RE AWESOME MATE!
Yeah, I never wished I was a boy but I have had thoughts of changing my pronouns to she/they, but as you said, it'll just make things more complicated (I know that's not directly what you said but still) and it's not like my family would respect it anyway.
(I've been told by a few ppl that I seem like the perfect mix between feminine and masculine haha)
The first 20 seconds instantly reminded me of this one video were a RUclipsr charr something talked about the gym leader/elite four member Larry and his outlook on life, talking about how people are too obsessed over not being normal or rather being unique and outstanding.
Never heard of it
Something that makes this even more complex is when you take into account different cultural beliefs too. What may be considered masculine or feminine in one culture may be the opposite in a totally different one.
For example, there was a time in ancient Roman culture when pants were seen as strictly for women only. Another is how high heels (at least in Europe) used to be seen as men's wear. Even the idea of what certain tasks were for which gender can vary (cooking, politics, etc.).
With this in mind, the idea of what makes something or someone masculine or feminine is more complicated than most people realize.
I am very sure pants were considered barbarian clothes in rome {they preferred tunics}
And the reason for why something was considered musclin or fem is always the same.
Men regarded heels as manly because the use of them in horse riding and to increase hight.
Which is very different from why women wear it today
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Pants were considered barbarian clothes in Rome only when they were seen being worn by men. This is because of the non-Roman peoples doing this with that type of clothing, who the Romans tended to think were backwards in their ways. You could say they thought the men of those other cultures were "less manly" because of it.
And even if the high heels thing had more of a purpose back then, the point still stands in a way. The idea of what makes something more masculine or feminine still varies across the world.
Here's another example. For a long time (even in America), art was considered more of something done by men and men only. Meanwhile, works done by women tended to get rejected more often because it wasn't seen as a proper/appropriate occupation for them to do. This led to many women struggling as starving artists for most of their lives. Those that we do know of (before they started becoming more common/accepted) had gone through a lot of hardship to be recognized.
@@resdent2922 that is my point, the ideas behind musclinty and femininity don't change but their expression can change.
And what is your point about art? Art isn't regarded as a feminine thing today
Also pants were worn by gauls and the people around them and Romans never thought of them as lacking in musclinty.
For the Romans the gauls were very manly while the Greeks and middle Easterns were soft "fem boys"
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl I never said it was strictly a feminine thing. I said it was at least considered at one point only a masculine thing in some places back then.
And I never said the Romans "always" thought pants were a feminine thing either. I said "for a time" with this one as well.
And even then, you have to take into account what was "barely tolerated" vs what was "discarded out of mutual respect." Battles, trading, ethical beliefs, etc., these all can effect how different cultures see each other. But that doesn't mean a person entirely changes on a personal level just like that from everything they grew up learning. They just get better at recognizing that some things are different with other people and that's okay. They'll do them.
It can be quite an interesting difference between viewing someone who practices an entirely different culture from you, and someone who is from the same culture as you and doing things opposite of it. Even if it's unfair, it's still a done thing even today.
Hypocritical? Yes. Real life though? Sadly, also yes.
Apparently pink used to be a very masculine color back in the ye old English days
But A lot of Young People, especially Men are Depressed, Anxious, Angry, Sad, Hopeless, Nervous, Feels Worthless, Helpless, Unloved, Hapless, Unhappy, Antisocial, Maladjusted, Maladaptive, Mentally and Emotionally Unhealthy.
Are hyperfeminine characters in hazbin hatel hated, though? Rozie is pretty much adored in fandom, Angel dust as drag gueen/feminine gay is videly praized in fandom. Dont know about someone like Emily, but aside from her underdevelooment i havent seen people hating on her. Carmila is also really maternal and feminine, aswell asgraceful balerina, and i havent seen people hating on her all that much.
*To me it doesn't seem these characters are usually hated or disliked. I think they're more likely ignored or understimated*
*But i understand your point and as a tomboy lover myself, i kinda miss when there was lots of people caring about actually feminime female characters rather than tough and masculine female characters*
I have like 5 female cousins that are either as old as me or younger and each one is different. Some of them are girlier than the others and others make me feel like less than a man since she has a better understanding of cars than me but I never thought less of them because of those things, if there’s one thing I want to pass on to everyone here it’s that only your own opinion about yourself matters.
The ones who hate girly things actually lose the point
It wasn't the feminite trait and things the oppresion, no, it was because women were forced to be that way.
And with that actitude they aren't breaking the mold, they are changing it for a new one
The simple answer is, in a story that involves confrontation the people who usually get out shined are the nurturer, motherly types. The audience wants to see the underdog's be victorious, so anyone who isn't constantly pushing their limits, or holding back for the sake of personal reasons feels like they're weighing the story down for some people. Perspective is a great tool for storytelling but not if it gets in the way of the story's pacing. The audience doesn't want to feel like their time is being wasted, and not everybody watching has enough patience to watch the nurturer type character come into their own.
i don't know, because on Internet you find different group and it's hard to find percentage, also because on Internet you find the more extreme point of view. Also in later year a lot of strong female character in the worst sense of the word come out, which don't give a good reputation. But some points: femininity isn't as flashy as masculine, and often brings dialogue, which often brings discomfort. Depending on how they're written, they can result annoying in contrast with the rest of the cast, but it's really a case by case. Feminine also comes with things a part of the audience will not care about, like clothes, or shopping(always case by case). Also empathy, nurturing, ecc. requires good writing too function, and will fail easily i think and result annoying. Also you always find someone that says something is bad. Maybe in this particular period feminine characters are more scrutinised. Also i want to add that i thing in general feminine quality are less valued than masculine quality. This is the real patriarchy mindset. So is a multicause thing , obviously.
I think this video starts on a somewhat false premise. People generally don't hate feminine characters, they hate it when feminine characters are put into masculine roles, and emulate masculinity while trying to pretend it's femininity. Personally, I'm not up to date on Ninjago, but I don't recall any major criticisms about female characters, though I watched it when I was too young to argue online about it. I also don't remember anyone hating Katara's character, I've never even seen it personally, as far as I recall. I haven't seen Hazbin Hotel in its entirety, but if I had to guess, Charlie just being a happy go lucky lesbian is why people dislike her (not saying I dislike her) because it's just too stereotypical, whereas Lute is much more brash and more like the boys, and of course people often like characters that are like themselves in some way, and Lute being so absurdly violent also makes her a sort of breath of fresh air as so many female characters just aren't like that. Lute isn't trying to be feminine, she's just a violent murderer, which capitalizes on individual traits that are separate from femininity and masculinity, which is a sign of good character writing. As a separate example from the video, people generally seem to like Debbie's character from Invincible, who's a relatively traditional house wife, which is clearly feminine, but she also has her own personality, and people seem to love it when she's on screen. If there's anyone who's feminine but liked, I'd use her as an example, because as mentioned it's not femininity that's the issue, it's trying to veil femininity over masculinity, and treating femininity as superior to masculinity by making men look like useless idiots.
Of course, there's a lot that's generalized, but I think the subject itself is treated very generally, so that's what happens with a response to it.
I’ve been a fan of East Asian anime for many years, and it’s a revelation to me that it turns out that someone, somewhere can hate feminine (in body or character) heroine. What? How? Where? I've never seen such madness! Where have you seen this? Apart from the woke society, I have not seen this anywhere . Maybe you should stop communicate with them? And start contact with normal people?
*as a lover of tough and masculine females, i honestly agree with you. i miss when actually feminime female characters were the norme and even beloved*
@fyran6453 Surprised by this considering how much people glorify and justify people like Jeri Hogarth, Mystique, Bonnie Winterbottom, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 what do they have of mascline?
@@fyran6453 they are malicious, wicked, and get away, and alot of times excused for huring people as they are presented being “tragic” or “complex”
Is being bad and mischievous asshole who gets away associated with masculinity? Cause I saw someone in another thread say “responsible” female characters are hated.
I guess im wondering what’s considered masculine or feminine truly in character writing
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 i don't understand well. Can you be more clear?
I hope the world will no longer hating femininity.
I don't mind cutesy feminine design. As long as it's not pandering slop like Dora or Barbie.
Charlie and Amy could have been Beloved characters but the biggest problem is that they over exaggerated there personality,too quirky,too typical pixie dream girl, they're practically one dimensional to the point that they're annoying
(Im saying the same for Charlie because her development wasn't bas but also was not enough for most to really take her seriously)
Not all Feminine Character's are hated or dismissed,one of which ,Rarity from My little pony,she was a Feminine character,the reason she's appreciated and loved by fan's is because she was well develope and the show gave her many strength's while maintaining being feminine
This exact same problem goes to modern Disney Princess, especially when it comes to this quirky and adorkable traits. And that love or romance will make the characters "weak".
@@shonnaa7117
Can you please specify what makes the Disney princess "Weak" is it just by romance and love?
@@jayfranco2383 Well, it's just that Disney now believes that having a love interest or any support will the princess weaker and that women should do things by themselves. That's why they got rid of the Star Boy from Wish because "romance is bad" to them.
@@shonnaa7117
That makes sense,they really ruined what made Disney or most animated from different companies shows theses day's into complete disaster,most,since some did do well
Not good writing can make bad influence often times on audiences so it's quite the same that is affecting Hazbin Hotel
I'm saying (not good) instead of bad because the show has quite missed potential,but at least manages to the best it can go
Thank you for answering my question 👍
One of the important things to consider is the target demographic of the series itself. Stuff like Ninjago, ATLA and Shounen anime are designed for little boys, who generally prefer masculine concepts and traits within media, so they are generally going to prefer female characters with masculine traits to female characters with feminine traits.
Oh and I'm also going to be comment number three billion to state that Rarity is best pony, by far.
I’d say its because they usually just aren’t as entertaining to watch. But maybe also because the writers aren’t as good at writing super feminine characters.
But Kyoshi is peak femininity imo
Kyoshi is literally a butch lesbian, so I tend to like Nico Robin and other characters similar to her that are overtly feminine.
A love of subversion, although at this point feminine characters is pretty much the subversion, especially in a strong way. That is another thing, strength. Masculinity often gets seen as strong and feminity as weak, so you see people assuming female characters are weak if they are feminine, or cannot be taken seriously
It is why in certain circles I think we are seeing a rise in popularity of villainess characters, as they tend to be only ones who can be feminine and strong.
Heck even as a guy I can relate. I’ve always known that psychologically speaking I was more feminine than everyone else but because I had an interest for masculine hobbies I was perceived as just some average dude.
I believe that the issue is that the conservative idea is that femininity is being weak and submissive therefore incapable of being the hero while the liberal is the most stereotypical man you can think of but with boobs (ironically reenforcing the idea that you can’t be a feminine hero). But at least I’m glad characters like Katara exists even if they’re the exception
Surprised by this considering how much people glorify and justify people like Jeri Hogarth, Mystique, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy
As a guy I actually love a lot of shows with female protagonists and I fail to see the problem here as long as it doesn't feel clearly forced (unless feeling forced is actually part of the intended narrative). Like... "Star vs. the Forces of Evil" is one of many examples of a really good show that takes all those girly stereotypes to a near-caricature level because it just perfectly fits the actual character - a princess from a magical dimension - and then just works with it within the narrative. Clashing her with both real (non-magical) world and the dark side of her own realm. Not to change her into something different, but to let her make the worlds better in ways no other character would be bothered to. And it doesn't feel forced or stupid (even though the show's name and early episodes may give an impression of it being just silly), she's a great character who becomes wise without becoming any less girly.
Personally never been bothered by it and love both of them and who they are.
I don't think it's that people hate Is femininity. It comes down to character traits. I haven't seen ninjago or Hazben but I love Avatar. People didn't like Katara because at fist she was pushy, Is self righteous, always nagging, ect. But she was written to be a motherly archetype. So she was doing what mothers do when they think they know what's best for there loved ones. But as the series went on she starts seeing she don't need to help them with every little thing and start focusing more on herself while still being motherly to the others. In simpler terms she stopped being a helicopter parent to a loving big sister type. Now for why the characters you call masculine what people like about them is there Confidence. Just look at movies/media like legally blonde, Buffy, Powerpuff Girls, sailor moon. These shows all have very girly girl characters and are very popular even with boys. There's just a problem with writers. That just make feminine girls into the Damsel and distress trope or eye candy, or the token girl of the group( right next to token non-white person).
Fr like wyldfire was raised in the wyldness and so much people say that she is annoying but bro and katara is katara bro why can't people like wyldfire or katara
And I also love how Sora is a mechanic that's perfectly comfortable wearing super girly clothes.
I love your voice so much
Aww thank you 🥹
I used to hate a LOT of female and feminine characters as a kid, and I tbh do think it was just a kind of pick me phase, I later came to believe that’s all it was, and that I was just a sexist little girl😭
But I recently realized, wait, many woman and feminine characters are just… really poorly written? Especially by large companies such as Disney (looking at more recent characters, mostly). They say “girl power!” And then write bland female characters whose only personality is being a powerful or successful woman. Other than that- they aren’t really people. Just girlboss women they can use as representation trophies
Also I didnt realize at the time that I was transmasc, so tbh that could also play into that😭
Anyway, another reason I personally think feminine women may be more disliked is because until recently- that’s kind of all we got in mainstream media? Ig when people are starved of representation, it’s kind of the thing they’re most concerned with.
Not seeing other people like you might cause you to feel disconnected from the characters you *are* offered, and if you are already set apart by society, it’s kind of a big deal when you finally do get some representation and someone saying “hey, people like you exist, and you’re not wrong for being however different you may be”
Anyway, that’s my personal perspective, but I definitely agree that oftentimes people become too extreme and pressure feminine girls not to be so because toxic masculinity or being a pick me (“I don’t wear makeup” girl) or just desperately wanting more representation
People should be allowed and encouraged to be who they are, wether or not you can personally relate!
(Reposting this from a reply I made just to share my perspective in my own comment 😌)
I didnt started hating feminine things till after my dad yelled at my 13 year old sister. that he will disown her if she came to his house. I was only 8 at the time. I dont remember her crying her eye out but i do remember the story of my step mom saying she couldn't wear make-up till she was 16. Witch started the no make-up thing. But now the story has change where she wore make-up as a child to hide brusie and marks. And they dont remember any of that happening. So no apologies.
So femininity felt like a life or death situation for me subconsciously. And sadly i still cant stand it when people say i do act feminine. I know, just ignore it and let me suffer in my hypocrisy.
I just don't like wearing makeup in general, but not cuz it's girly, but cuz I don't wanna have to rely on makeup to make me pretty.
But yeah I'm sorry you went through that. My father sucked too. He was and still is a narcissist. I have bad trauma from the times he'd yell at me
@boonAlina thanks and i get you. I just hate the feeling of that oily powder on my face. Dont know how people put that on and not scratch it off. And its wasnt just dad. Step mom was the biggest problem. She didnt want to raise someone else kids. But wanted dad to rasie hers.
Glad mom got dad to snip snip after me. Ill be forever his last creation.
how do people get so mad over female characters💀 it adds good balance its NEVER that serious
I'm on the side that claims that this is a writing issue and not a gender one. Going with Ninjago, the only reason why I dislike Vania is simply because she doesn't seem to have that much to her character in the story; does she have a struggle to solve? something to change about her or her mindset? Doesn't seem to be the case, and that's my problem with her: she doesn't have a purpose in the story outside of being Cole's failed love interest (and I say failed because that little plotline went nowhere).
And as for Akita, Nya, Pixal and Skylor: out of these 4, I prefer Nya the most simply because there's more nuance to her character. Pixal had a great evolution since S3 but feels kinda stale in the 11-minute seasons. Akita's backstory is pretty cool, but considering she only appears in the ice chapter, there isn't much to her character outside of that arc. And as for Skylor, well, same with Vania, only difference is she had a role plot wise in the two seasons she was a vital character and that her thing with Kai did go somewhere.
Wow, that explains why some people were weirdly hating on Rarity from My Little Pony.
Very well said.
So glad someone finally said this and as a tom boy myself most of my best friends tend to lean more on the girly girl side and I think that's great I don't see why they should be shamed for it
Look, if the characters can take care of the main character or everyone and still kick ass now that is women I like😊😊😊.
I’m pretty sure it’s “why is SENSITIVITY so hated”, not femininity. All of these characters represent sensitive, responsible and headstrong/caring people, the type of people who’ll tell you to go to bed at 10 pm. Rosie was in hazbin, she was feminine, but she was loved. I’m not going to say these characters are unrealistic because I see a lot of women with this attitude, but I do think people seem to dislike overtly boring/responsible women (at least with men it’s better written to be a stoic giant)
>Why are Wanda-type characters so hated? The type that are killjoys and ruin the fun unlike the more entertaining Cosmo.
@@espurrseyes42 Surprised by this considering how much people glorify and justify people like Jeri Hogarth, Mystique, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy
Not me, being a Ninjago fan, that is a girl and is into female strong characters like Nya yet I love Vania. She isn't a skilled fighter like Nya or Skylor but she wants justice and fought against her father and his evil plans. I don't care if she is too feminine I love how sweet she is ❤. And ofc every girl in Ninjago is a queen( except Harumi, I love to hate her). So let girls be like girls, you can act tough,brave and be sweet and kind, too
Who hated on Katara?
What kind of circles were you in?
I grew up with ATLA and honestly Katara is one of the best female characters i came across.
Wait, people hated Katara?
The answer: feminism. It is a crusade against the traditional
0:32
I’m going to quote you on that, because that’s a based opinion right there.
Still though, I don’t care what personality traits a character has as long as they’re well written.
I loved Katara’s character, not because she was a feminine girly girl, but because she was a deep and well written character. I also loved Toph, not because she was a tough and rebellious tomboy, but because she also had a lot of depth and character.
I honestly still have no clue what people mean when they say "based"
@@boonAlina I’m going to be 100% honest. I don’t either.
I usually try to avoid using slang, but when words fail me, sometimes it just works.
Maybe this is why people prefer Toph over Katara?
feminity isnt hated, whats being hated is sexualism of women
@S_N1. Surprised by this considering how much people glorify and justify people like Jeri Hogarth, Mystique, Harley Quinn, and Poison Ivy
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 they do?? wth
I don't think the characters on the right aren't feminine, they're just more interesting
This video made me realize that all my favorite characters are like mostly men or women who act like men... yikes... I should broaden my type-
I mean you can't control who you like, I can't force you to start liking more feminine female characters
That’s same goes to Genshin Impact Community
People hate Ayaka, Barbara, Nilou, Navia, Kokomi & Yunjin because they’re feminine/girly characters but they’re strong and some have good character development
But they like Yomiya, Beidou Xinyan because Yoimiya is like tomboyish, Beidou is more Masculine and she’s pirate captain & Xinyan is rock in roll play on her guitar
For example, Furina is Hydro Archon & God of Justice, she’s flamboyrant & dramatic and people called her Lady Furina because it’s sign of respect her, but people in the community hate her because she’s spoiled brat, annoying & doesn’t do anything, but until the later she had great character development because of the backstory is so sad and she’s no longer the archon (just like Zhongli, he’s no longer archon), But the fact she’s a human, Focalors is her god counterpart, unfortunately she sacrificed herself in executing because there will no more hydro archon & Nevulitte will absorb her powers.
In Japanese Dub, Furina is called herself “Boku” Which pronounces for young boys but it can be for girls who can be tomboy or masculine or anything they want, & she’s Bokkuko character like another female character is Zero Two, Lucoa, Ononoki Yotsugi, Hestia, & Yuuki who also called them “Boku•”, in my opinion Furina is both masculine & feminine at the same time :)
On the next is Arlecchino, also known as “Knave” but her real name is Peruere, She’s the fourth of Fatui Harbingers & referred to “Father” by orphans with the House of of the Health, she grew up with orphanage house before she become part of fatui harbingers, people really love her because she’s very masculinity, personality, take care of Lyney, Lynette & Freminet, & very antagonist.
I hope the community needs to know about this
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO SAYS THAT THANK YOU!! I LOVE AYAKA SM!! I miss when she was a fan-favorite during the 2021 era when she was introduced and I got sensitive and curious about how Ayaka was hated among Genshin Fans. Don't get me wrong, I like Furina, but she's not my favorite(haven't played the Archon quest part 3-pre??), and I mostly agree about what you said.
Charlie is overshadowed by Lute? That’s a really odd stance because, to me, Lute just feels like a blank slate because we hardly see her at all.
I love Vania. She's a great character with good character development for a side character. I hope she comes back.
One thing everyone always fails to point out, is that masculinity isn't bad. Masculinity isn't in any way shape or form " acting " a certain way. Be it " cold , uncaring and distant. " Those are things we associate with it because of patriarchy. Just like " acting" feminine, doesn't mean being " soft, nice and pleasant" those are just things we associate with it, because patriarchy put MOTHERHOOD at the forefront of women's lives.. which means that naturally, if women are always SEEN being nurturing and caring, and TAUGHT to be nurturing and caring, and EXPECTED to be nurturing and caring... Then that's what's going to be associated with it.. but that's NOT what femininity is..
Being feminine is a PHYSICAL description. NOT a way of life... And always PRAISING and GLORIFYING it as if " being feminine ' automatically = " being a good person " and " being pretty " and " being expressive and radiant and artistic "
Is always something that's going to hold society back if we don't stop it. Or accept that masculinity is ALSO all of those things.
And yes, I do know that being seen as " inherently artistic and creative " and that " you were born with something that men just CAN'T understand " is probably very pleasing to hear for women.. we have to let that idea go. Because it is harmful.
Masculinity is just as beautiful and artsy and pretty. We just need to make the efforts see a world where that is accepted as s fact.
And always remember:
Femininity and masculinity are PHYSICAL DESCRIPTIONS of people. Not " inherent truths about your soul and the universe. "
Men didn't put motherhood as the most dominant trait a woman should have..... Nature did
It's the most important thing about female half of the population for the specie to even continue surviving
Commenting here as a guy who’s listened to male reviewers talk about the same thing. Also agree with the sentiment that we should all just express ourselves as we wish and not worry about expectations others have on us.
I think part of the problem is the struggle to find a demographic/target audience.
We see a show like Totally Spies and can say with certainty that it’s a show made for girls. Not that guys can’t enjoy it, just that it’s geared more toward girls.
Meanwhile, Ninjago, especially early Ninjago where there were hardly any girls, was geared mainly towards boys.
Taking it a step further, we could definitely say that Dragon Ball Z was a guys show.
Again, girls can enjoy these things, but they weren’t necessarily the target audience.
Then we have LoK. While I cant cite the exact vid on RUclips, I remember learning how Nickelodeon saw Avatar as being more of a guy’s show, so they were iffy about Korra. But it turned out that Korra was a hit. In retrospect, it seems Korra was “masculine” enough to appeal to guys.
If there are more of these guy shows than gals shows, and if these guy shows create girls with more masculine than feminine traits, then that could be interpreted as saying traditionally feminine traits aren’t as valuable.
Then again, it could also be an issue that male writers write women the same as they would a man, not taking their general femininity into consideration.
In other words, they write a man in a woman’s body.
To illustrate this, I remember a meme about the female characters designed for the male gaze vs the female gaze.
The design for the female gaze was very feminine, very classy, with a beautiful ornate dress.
The design for the male gaze, in contrast, was more revealing. More skin and more attitude.
Men aren’t too different.
Men, for example, can either be a man’s man (try to impress other men) vs a lady’s man (try to impress women).
This is just... Wrong. People don't hate "femininity". Well, I can't say that, there is a major trend going on lately by a certain community that is bent on erasing femininity and feminine beauty.
But the audience at large doesn't dislike "femininity". What most of us don't like are stick-in-the-mud characters. Your example of Katara is just that, a stick-in-the-mud character, when compared to Toph. Toph is more fun-loving, and yet still feminine, than Katara is. Katara acts like a wet blanket more often than not, and THAT'S why people like her less. Not hate, just like less. Katara is my fourth favourite character of the show, behind Zuko, Toph, and Iroh (not in that order). I like her more than Aang, the main character, and a male.
A perfect example that completely refutes your idea: Ty Lee. She is practically the epitome of femininity in that show, even more girly than Katara, though less "motherly". And yet she is an all time fan favourite from my understanding. Same with Suki. Yes, she's a fighter, but she's also still very feminine, and one of her most known lines is "I'm a warrior, but I'm a girl, too". And she has the authority of a motherly figure, too, despite being well liked. The reason? She isn't a wet blanket, stick-in-the-mud style character like Katara.
Noticing the pattern? All the female characters that people like more AREN'T wet blanket characters. They're characters that are more open to fun, taking risks, getting dirty. The ones that aren't liked (and "aren't" is suspect as heck, Katara is well-loved) are only that way because they tend to rain on the parade. Even when they're right, they tend to be killjoys.
Who could hate Katara?
Honestly Vania is still pretty brave even though she isn't trained in combat. Though she was fangirling about meeting the ninja she's implied to be pretty young so it makes sense. Let's not forget it was also her birthday so of course she was excited. She still became the ruler of Shintaro after the ninja left and tried to help however she could. She's a minor character, but a pretty good one. I don't see why anyone would even put energy into hating her.
I can kinda see why people were annoyed with Sally, but she was having a total mental breakdown cause she thought her parents called the cops on her after she disobeyed them and stole their car and she was also very young. I'd like to see the haters in that situation.
Both are younger girls who are still a bit immature.