When they introduced the black obelisks and their premise on Icewind Dale, I thought that this Vecna adventure would be related to it, and be indeed a plot of rewinding time. It would work as an analogue of the evil bad guy wanting to go back in time, while the heroes would accept the past and move forward. Somehow, they did nothing with the obelisks.
@@gamemasterswould be nice bc I am planning on making a homebrew explanation for how their involved with him in that adventure since it wasn’t addressed which really bummed me out
Could we get a advice video about how to make the vecna fight actually a challenge? What minions to include what mechanics and gear to give vecna? That would be very helpful and useful for many a dms since lvl 20 characters are really hard to threaten in combat.
to be honest, that's going to be an impossible thing to answer only because of the sheet variety of players and any given combination of classes/subclasses/weapons/items/spells/etc. the best advice that I can give is for the DM to become intimately familiar with the characters and their abilities. I wouldn't go so far as to say that a DM should purposely create encounters that the players cannot possible bounce back from, but knowing what the players are capable of will at least provide to the DM a way to provide a challenge.
GameMasters, you seem like a decent chap and a great DM! And so I came to pour out my frustration regarding the final confrontation with Vecna in hopes of finding some sort of comfort and solace, as well as learning your opinion on this topic... For years I've been waiting for some statblocks for gods in 5e and while we got their aspects, avatars and such... We never truly got to fight with the "real deal". I do realise that such statblocks are not made because said gods are not made to even be challenged by mortals... and yet Vecna was meant to be a deity that the players have to fight and beat! Since Vecna is a Lesser Deity in rank and power... below Greater Deities and above Quasi Deites... I was hoping to see the statblock of a "real god!" Of course I was expecting him to be weakened (for reasons stated in the adventure) and instead of lets say, full display of his might, he would be counting as a deity one rank below or so.... But as you probably know... they've simply reused his old statblock which is horribly frustrating! They've remade statblocks for some other monsters but this one was just left as it is! "You're fighting a Lesser Deity!" But it is actually just Vecna before he even ascended. Just the good old archlich... nothing new. If they were for the players to face off against super weak Vecna they could've used it but also provide the statblock for Vecna in full power, as a divine. This could help out in making other statblocks for "evil goods" or even "good gods" in homebrew campaigns. Or give us a new statblock for Divine Vecna and just state that his health and spell saving DC were greatly lowered to certain number... due to the ritual... Thank you for reading this scribbles and thank you for being amazing! Sorry for terrible English, Greetings from Poland!
czesc! (I know I don't have the accents in there). Aye, while AD&D gave us Deities and Demigods and then we got the Immortal boxed set, 5e has been very lacking in giving us stat blocks for divine beings. I think some folks would like to see them just to see what they are, but for some reason WotC just isn't interested :(
This was going to be a major problem for me, but in a previous adventure I ran, my group failed in stopping vecna and he became immortal to damage and he got away, now the same group are going to play Eve of ruin...and now vecna cannot take damage, so now my players will need to get creative to banish vecna without killing his physical form. So the stat block will be fine enough for me. But to answer your question, it frustrates me too that we never got stats for gods, still pissed we have no lolth stats, it is stupid, as a dm and fan of final fantasy I want to see my players having fun taking down these legendary immortal beings.
I personally used his 4e stats as inspiration to alter his stats and give him a mythic state, which gives him an XP value as a monster that is close to the XP value he has in 4e as a CR 35 creature in his true deity form. (Although the closest would be a mythic CR 28 creature.)
Hmm...what if all that was good and pure about a mom-and-pop company's idea for a game of imagination fueled by _YOUR_ imagined canon lore was locked, by some evil arch-lich, in Gary Gygax's basement...behind a biometrically locked door requiring a retinal scan and palm print to open?
@@gamemastersWell, gee, I guess I'll have to hope Vecna had the gene for mid-digital hair.... Be on the lookout for module V1 The Hairy Hand of Vecna! Of course, following the after-party, upon successful completion of the adventure, will follow V2 The Fuzzy Eye of Vecna.
I personally believe that Vecna's reign would become comparable to Thay or the old Tevinter Empire from Dragon Age, only on a multiversal level. With a colossal fluid change of personnel in his administration because someone like Vecna is too paranoid to let anyone under him become too powerful, especially since what happened with Kas.
and that's the thing with every module that has ever featured or mentioned Vecna, even the older AD&D ones (die vecna die, vecna lives, etc).. Vecna is only really mentioned and not active until the "final showdown". We don't really know his motivation and drive, just what NPCs think that it is. I'd love to see something that features HIM throughout.
nah, we never really called it "advanced" until 2nd edition came out. Yes, it _was_ advanced, but the common term for it back in the day was just "dungeons and dragons".
in this scenario, Mystra would be uncreated. Ed Greenwood crated her with the Forgotten Realms setting, since this reverts everything back to original d&d white books, she is uncreated. (but the brilliant thing is, she'll be created again in the future).
I think everyone would like Thac0 in a world of VTTs. The software does all the work for you. At it's very essence, it's just a bonus to hit someone with a stick. Wizards spent their whole life studying books, they are the worst at bonking people with sticks. Rogues and Clerics are more gooder at bonking people with sticks than Wizards. Warriors trained their whole lives to bonk people with sticks. They're the best at it. It's not just raw muscle (though many get that also) it's general overall combat prowess.
Actually, since you made me think about this. I do not think vecan would go all the way back to OG White Box. he would want to reset the multiverse to when he was at his most powerful and influential, probably AD&D in the moments right after he killed the circle of 8 in Venca Lives Or when he was running the realms in the Doomed Forgotten Realms timeline.
consider this.. with the power that he has amassed up to the point in Vecna Eve of Ruin, and then resetting everything, he is, in fact, the most powerful entity in the multiverse (because all others have been erased) and can now shape it however he sees fit.
@@gamemasters exactly so really he went back to day 1 and took all the stuff from the boys and published it himself? We have been playing Vecna and Vecan for 50 years and right now its the 50th out of Vecna on the coast
Considering Perkins said in an interview, that if he could, we wouldn't be getting a 5.5 revision but a new edition with just the base four classes, so I think your game's outcome fits the best.
Is this perhaps how he became a god? You said this is rhe "arch-lich" version if Vecna not the "God of Secrets" version. Maybe thats how he attained godhood?
@@gamemasters I hear the lyrics from the TOOL song Aenima: "It's time to bring it down again Yeah, don't just call me pessimist Try and read between the lines I can't imagine why you wouldn't Welcome any change, my friend I wanna see it come down..."
yeah, I'm going to include a section in my .pdf on what to do should the players choose to help him instead of gith him. Just some small changes overall to the storyline.
except.. miska isn't back.. just trapped in a small section.. and in the event that miska does become free.. there is no mention as to what exactly to do.. it's just frustrating.
Ummm , pass on first edition rules. Fix the ac and thac0 issues of second and I'm fine. No need for way to many inherent magical abilities that came afterwards. I like the more normal world Tolkienest.
a tolkeinest world was very much embedded into the original, so much so that the Tolkien estate went to court with TSR because they included hobbits, ents, and balrogs.
Funny twist, but if we're being real here, he would definitely be enslaving worlds, killing gods, and claiming all mortal souls.
well.. he effectively killed 99% of all gods (by unmaking them).. as well as a multiverse full of mortal souls..
@@gamemasters When you put it that way, mission accomplished I suppose 😆
LOL
Oh that's awesome! You totally had me at the edge of my seat! And then the reveal? Chef's kiss XD great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
When they introduced the black obelisks and their premise on Icewind Dale, I thought that this Vecna adventure would be related to it, and be indeed a plot of rewinding time. It would work as an analogue of the evil bad guy wanting to go back in time, while the heroes would accept the past and move forward.
Somehow, they did nothing with the obelisks.
I'm working on a video that details heavily the obelisk and how it fits into the adventure.
@@gamemasterswould be nice bc I am planning on making a homebrew explanation for how their involved with him in that adventure since it wasn’t addressed which really bummed me out
@@gamemasters but you should not have to. Current WOTC is game design, little current lore and no continuity.
yes, that's what i thought as well this multi year build up in regards to the obelisks and the final payoff was-oh it was mind flayers not vecan
An interesting take...
I look forward to hearing what your players have to say about that outcome! Especially with the original rule sets! LOL!
A follow up is a must!
We shall see
Could we get a advice video about how to make the vecna fight actually a challenge? What minions to include what mechanics and gear to give vecna? That would be very helpful and useful for many a dms since lvl 20 characters are really hard to threaten in combat.
to be honest, that's going to be an impossible thing to answer only because of the sheet variety of players and any given combination of classes/subclasses/weapons/items/spells/etc.
the best advice that I can give is for the DM to become intimately familiar with the characters and their abilities. I wouldn't go so far as to say that a DM should purposely create encounters that the players cannot possible bounce back from, but knowing what the players are capable of will at least provide to the DM a way to provide a challenge.
GameMasters, you seem like a decent chap and a great DM! And so I came to pour out my frustration regarding the final confrontation with Vecna in hopes of finding some sort of comfort and solace, as well as learning your opinion on this topic...
For years I've been waiting for some statblocks for gods in 5e and while we got their aspects, avatars and such... We never truly got to fight with the "real deal". I do realise that such statblocks are not made because said gods are not made to even be challenged by mortals... and yet Vecna was meant to be a deity that the players have to fight and beat!
Since Vecna is a Lesser Deity in rank and power... below Greater Deities and above Quasi Deites... I was hoping to see the statblock of a "real god!"
Of course I was expecting him to be weakened (for reasons stated in the adventure) and instead of lets say, full display of his might, he would be counting as a deity one rank below or so....
But as you probably know... they've simply reused his old statblock which is horribly frustrating! They've remade statblocks for some other monsters but this one was just left as it is!
"You're fighting a Lesser Deity!" But it is actually just Vecna before he even ascended. Just the good old archlich... nothing new.
If they were for the players to face off against super weak Vecna they could've used it but also provide the statblock for Vecna in full power, as a divine. This could help out in making other statblocks for "evil goods" or even "good gods" in homebrew campaigns. Or give us a new statblock for Divine Vecna and just state that his health and spell saving DC were greatly lowered to certain number... due to the ritual...
Thank you for reading this scribbles and thank you for being amazing!
Sorry for terrible English,
Greetings from Poland!
czesc! (I know I don't have the accents in there).
Aye, while AD&D gave us Deities and Demigods and then we got the Immortal boxed set, 5e has been very lacking in giving us stat blocks for divine beings. I think some folks would like to see them just to see what they are, but for some reason WotC just isn't interested :(
@@gamemasters The Gold Box Immortals set, brings back memories; now THAT's how you transition between versions of the game
This was going to be a major problem for me, but in a previous adventure I ran, my group failed in stopping vecna and he became immortal to damage and he got away, now the same group are going to play Eve of ruin...and now vecna cannot take damage, so now my players will need to get creative to banish vecna without killing his physical form.
So the stat block will be fine enough for me.
But to answer your question, it frustrates me too that we never got stats for gods, still pissed we have no lolth stats, it is stupid, as a dm and fan of final fantasy I want to see my players having fun taking down these legendary immortal beings.
I personally used his 4e stats as inspiration to alter his stats and give him a mythic state, which gives him an XP value as a monster that is close to the XP value he has in 4e as a CR 35 creature in his true deity form. (Although the closest would be a mythic CR 28 creature.)
Nice
I like it. Even though I never played "D&D". I started with 1AD&D.
Hmm...what if all that was good and pure about a mom-and-pop company's idea for a game of imagination fueled by _YOUR_ imagined canon lore was locked, by some evil arch-lich, in Gary Gygax's basement...behind a biometrically locked door requiring a retinal scan and palm print to open?
you'd also need to provide a hair sample, as well as a dna sample.
@@gamemastersWell, gee, I guess I'll have to hope Vecna had the gene for mid-digital hair.... Be on the lookout for module V1 The Hairy Hand of Vecna! Of course, following the after-party, upon successful completion of the adventure, will follow V2 The Fuzzy Eye of Vecna.
I personally believe that Vecna's reign would become comparable to Thay or the old Tevinter Empire from Dragon Age, only on a multiversal level. With a colossal fluid change of personnel in his administration because someone like Vecna is too paranoid to let anyone under him become too powerful, especially since what happened with Kas.
and that's the thing with every module that has ever featured or mentioned Vecna, even the older AD&D ones (die vecna die, vecna lives, etc).. Vecna is only really mentioned and not active until the "final showdown". We don't really know his motivation and drive, just what NPCs think that it is. I'd love to see something that features HIM throughout.
3:16 That's _Advanced_ Dungeons and Dragons. Didn't you always emphasize the "A" in "AD&D"? I know we did.
nah, we never really called it "advanced" until 2nd edition came out. Yes, it _was_ advanced, but the common term for it back in the day was just "dungeons and dragons".
@gamemasters Well, we used it to distinguish it from Basic, which is what another gaming group at our junior high was playing.
oooh, yes! You are right there! The term 'Basic' was also used.
That was a scenario that I didn't expect with Eve of Ruin. What did Mystra have say about all of this?
in this scenario, Mystra would be uncreated. Ed Greenwood crated her with the Forgotten Realms setting, since this reverts everything back to original d&d white books, she is uncreated. (but the brilliant thing is, she'll be created again in the future).
I enjoy all of GameMasters videos
lol - love that this was suggested by other youtubers, love too that it keep showing up in the comments haha!
I think everyone would like Thac0 in a world of VTTs. The software does all the work for you. At it's very essence, it's just a bonus to hit someone with a stick. Wizards spent their whole life studying books, they are the worst at bonking people with sticks. Rogues and Clerics are more gooder at bonking people with sticks than Wizards. Warriors trained their whole lives to bonk people with sticks. They're the best at it. It's not just raw muscle (though many get that also) it's general overall combat prowess.
ya know.. thac0 in a VTT, I would think, would be VERY doable.
So Vecna was just a regular old Grognard all along!
LOL that's one way to look at it hahahaha
Actually, since you made me think about this. I do not think vecan would go all the way back to OG White Box. he would want to reset the multiverse to when he was at his most powerful and influential, probably AD&D in the moments right after he killed the circle of 8 in Venca Lives
Or when he was running the realms in the Doomed Forgotten Realms timeline.
consider this.. with the power that he has amassed up to the point in Vecna Eve of Ruin, and then resetting everything, he is, in fact, the most powerful entity in the multiverse (because all others have been erased) and can now shape it however he sees fit.
@@gamemasters exactly so really he went back to day 1 and took all the stuff from the boys and published it himself?
We have been playing Vecna and Vecan for 50 years and right now its the 50th out of Vecna on the coast
Considering Perkins said in an interview, that if he could, we wouldn't be getting a 5.5 revision but a new edition with just the base four classes, so I think your game's outcome fits the best.
Seems great minds think alike. Granted, my take would have a dash of Mortal Kombat 1.
Loved the intro and an intriguing idea. 🤣🤣
heh, yep, and this is how it's going to actually happen at my table. Should be fun to run them through some of the original material..
Is this perhaps how he became a god? You said this is rhe "arch-lich" version if Vecna not the "God of Secrets" version. Maybe thats how he attained godhood?
in my version, with how it all goes down, this is exactly what happens.
@@gamemasters they say great minds think alike. Do we qualify as "great minds"? Or just weird nerds?
I can't imagine a more horrific ending 😅
the chance to start over and get it all right? nah, I'd welcome it.
@@gamemasters I hear the lyrics from the TOOL song Aenima:
"It's time to bring it down again
Yeah, don't just call me pessimist
Try and read between the lines
I can't imagine why you wouldn't
Welcome any change, my friend
I wanna see it come down..."
Great vid! I did a video on this very question too! Love the idea of having quest ideas beyond quest book
heh yeah, I've been wanting to get my players into ODD for a while now.. this seems to be the perfect way to do that.
I'm not running this until September and my players are already talking about siding with Vecna.
yeah, I'm going to include a section in my .pdf on what to do should the players choose to help him instead of gith him. Just some small changes overall to the storyline.
Vecna returns BECMI back to its glory days! :)
Definitely not the video I was expecting....
(heh is that good thing or a bad thing?)
...but it's the one we deserve
@@gamemasters Yes. ;-)
They didn't even use the obelisks!
yeah.... I'm working on a fix video that will include them
Funny video but I'm perfectly happy with 5e along with my DCC and OSE games.
:)
After seeing the storyline for vecna eve of ruin it seemed like it was written by a 10yr old. I like seeing Miska back though.
except.. miska isn't back.. just trapped in a small section.. and in the event that miska does become free.. there is no mention as to what exactly to do.. it's just frustrating.
What if he wins? Easy, we get 6th edition.
Nah
OD&D, nice
It should be a fun play..
Nah, Vecna, Star Wars, WW1,... the good guys never win.
you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Ummm , pass on first edition rules. Fix the ac and thac0 issues of second and I'm fine. No need for way to many inherent magical abilities that came afterwards. I like the more normal world Tolkienest.
a tolkeinest world was very much embedded into the original, so much so that the Tolkien estate went to court with TSR because they included hobbits, ents, and balrogs.
I have to bookmark this for later integration with my campaign notes. 😀
I cannot wait to see how my players react to this when it happens..