Old pilots isn’t the problem… it is young people not wanting to pay more than it costs to go to medical or law school with the chance it all was for nothing if they get medically disqualified.
It isn't quite that expensive, but the premise is there all the same. Why spend 60-80k+ depending on how things play out before you can get an entry level job, with no affordable loan options.... when you can spend 1/8 to 1/4 the cost and have the make a similar amount in rural areas and more in suburban/metro areas. Flight fees not qualifying for student loans, double digit flight training loans with short terms, and 95% of scholarship/grant programs/funds locked behind diversity that targets 5% or less of interested pilot candidates.... it has become a perfeft storm when coupled with some majors facing up to 35% mandatory retirement in the next 8 years when training and hour building for most pilots takes 5+ years before they can go regional. I had to have 2 surgeries last year and wife had medical issues and issues with her employer that kept us with no income the last 7 months (though we can start getting back into things now, not that that is a quick process despite what they like to say about the job market). I had 17k saved for flight training, but that disappeared in a hurry, and I was declined for a flight scholarship twice by EAA and AOPA. Increasingly becoming an impossible career change, though all the instructors I have spoke to would rather have people in 30s with prior careers and families, because we have the maturity/responsibility and perseverance to stick to it and make it a career. A lot of young pilots have either been quitting before PPL finished or shortly after, having used funds that could have gone to career seekers instead.
@@eleflux6609 I am a college age young man working towards the airlines. I was amazed by watching my friends work as a pilot and it was what made me want to become a pilot. I hope I can drive myself to doing the crazy amounts of work that will pay off in the end though.
I live in europe ( im 19 years old ) i have a glider pilot licence and an powered aircraft licence and 135 h of flight time i graduated high school first of my class and now im studying engineering , I have aplyed for Wizz air (cadet programe) and a passed the theoreticall test .... I would fly for them for 0 pay even in the middle of nowhere and i don't care where they send me or when i have to weak up or anything else ....there is will but from my point of view they don't seem to need pilots i still havent heard back from them while passing there thests ( it is just the interview that separates me from them but for some reasone they don't want to speak with me anymore)
and where I come from ....there are many others like me .... i don't think the young people are the problem the whole menegment stuf is ( at least in my case)
It makes zero sense to become a pilot over doing something more assured and financially stable. Want to fly? Become a doctor/dentist/lawyer and buy a baron 😂
All careers that cost $100,000 or more to attain are suffering, not just pilots. Young people are becoming wise to the student loan scam, and they are very wisely refusing to play the game. No way someone smart enough to be a pilot will volunteer to be tied down to a 6-figure loan before he or she turns 25 that will end up costing him or her twice that before it's paid off. TLDR? The cost of higher education in the US has increased more than 130% since the 1990s. The US needs to find a way to make pilot training, and training for all necessary professions, reasonable again if you want people to fill the demand.
You need to pay a lot for the good jobs. Those are the only good jobs left for Americans. Everything else is undercut by global trade or immigration. I hear people suggest IT. I cannot think of a worse career. India is pumping out a million IT workers a day and getting instantly enrolled into the H1B scam system. They suck at the job but they will work for minimum of $30k/yr less
100k to get a job that you might lose due to no fault of your own because of some medical issue. Now you have non-transferable skills, worthless certificates, and possibly a worthless degree.
I am a retired AA international Captain . Presently at AA new hires are upgrading to Captain within 3 years In my case , the Navy paid for ALL my training - it invests about $1M to produce a pilot I had a 4 year active duty commitment You can end run this my joining the National Air Guard or Air Force Reserves You can obtain a paid for college degree , then get a Officer Pilot Slot in your Air Guard unit - not competing against Air Force academy grads etc I had 15 years just fling LAX Hawaii I have passive income for life and had a great career ❤
Unfortunately that solution requires US citizenship. I mean shit, I’d do it for the USAF to fly and to have the chance to shoot at Russia or West Taiwan.
The high up front cost is a big problem. If airlines want to generate pilots they need to make their own flight schools and provide the Cessnas for free so you don't have to pay $150/hr for school. My son had to work 5 years at Walgreens to get his Commercial and Instructor rating. That takes rare character today.
Well like every generation. The kids who are raised right succeed and most of the rest don't. While it was a tough road for your son it made a man out of him. Boys don't become men just because they turn 18 or 21 or 31. Men are forged in adversity. Sounds cliche' but its largely true.
Im 26 and have two years as an airline pilot. I have already seen how crazy this industry is. My class date at the regionals wound up being delayed 18mo due to covid. Then once hired I flew my butt off and was flying widebodies in just 10mo. Now regionals arent even hiring FOs because they have a captian shortage. There are so many moving parts to all this but I have an interview scheduled with my (planned) career destination. Just hoping that my seniority would move fast enough to avoid furlough in the next downturn, or that they decide to give out early retirements to the senior pilots. Even with the 18mo delay for regional training I think it has been well worth it. I truly love my job and all the people i've met. That being said if I had a wife and kids to care for it would have made all of this much more stressful.
Thanks for the insight on what to expect. I will be separating from the military fairly soon to start my training, with the goal of an ATP down the line. I can't say I'm not nervous about everything. I just hope all the headache that I know I'll endure will be worth it in the end.
That's partly true with almost every career in the US. Say you get cancer one day or have a big heart attack and require months off to recover. While jobs can't discriminate against you per federal and state law once they've agreed to accommodate your treatment, they can absolutely choose not to accommodate it and fire you on the spot once you let them know. They can cite anything from safety reasons to financial. hardship. Now it's true that the FAA is a lot less forgiving because they can absolutely prevent you from flying forever, it's still not a rosy picture elsewhere. Especially since medical assistance is tied to having a job and just a week's stay in a hospital here for a major condition can bankrupt you without insurance. The fact is that we live in a very individualistic country. Either you're fit enough to work and produce or you're basically f*cked. Our social safety net is a joke.
Many great points. For my kids, they watched their dad being gone all the time. Lived through the lost decade making crap pay with 18years to captain at a major airline. I was close to quitting and changing careers.
“If you never got furloughed , made it to the left seat of a Major Airline in 6 years as I did Retired with a couple of million You’ve had a blessed lifen
Over 20 years ago, I was one of those guys that wanted to be a commercial pilot….and after a year of flying jet charter service, I had learned enough about the actual workings of the industry that I realized that being a pilot was basically indulging in a crappy lifestyle for the privilege of being able to fly expensive airplanes very fast, using the skills you’ve worked very hard to attain and spent much money to develop. I also realized that the aviation business is a pyramid, and only the people near the very top of the pyramid, flying top corporate jets or having lots of seniority for our major carriers, are the people making the real money. The people at the bottom of the pyramid are inspecting pipe lines and sending out resumes and trying to build enough time…..and once they get the job, they sit on reserve and they don’t make anywhere near the money that they deserve because the carriers can’t afford to pay that money. If anyone asks me if their son or daughter should become a pilot in the aviation industry, the only thing I tell them is to fly for the military, and while you’re flying for the military get a degree in something else so you can have a decent life. The entire aviation industry richly deserves a real pilot shortage….. and not the BS one that they were talking about 20 years ago.
The pilot shortage is here and has been here for the last 1.5yrs. It is a pyramid but has been more right sized. The next black swan event is always around the corner.
@@RandomName841 Well, I would look into that before I would spend the first dollar, because most airlines require at least a second class medical... and poor vision that is not corrected would probably not meet that standard. Now...if you're gonna buzz around on a Saturday afternoon in a Cessna 172, you can do that without such a stringent vision requirement.
Also the financial barrier to entry on being an airline pilot and having all these training programs being available for applicants but seeming almost impossible to get in deters so many me included.
#1 Factor was it cost over $100,000 to get a license plus lots of hustling to get 1,500 hours for ATP certificate. I sure not the one wanted to teach flying and trust my life on a new student. #2 Get a first officer job with commuter airline for as little as $20,000 a year. #3 Have to commute on own time. #4 Away from family for many days and with unknown schedule
This is the best, most concise video I have seen on the overall problem with getting young people into the aviation field. In 1998 I went to Florida to find a flight school to get my private pilot license. I went to a school that was sponsored by comair, they were affiliated with Delta. Anyway in the presentation it was mentioned that the annual salary of a first officer was $12000 a year, at the time I was making that much in a month, and after all the flight training you were guaranteed an interview with Comair, not a job, just an interview. They also offered a uniform allowance, awesome benefit. Captains made a whopping 36,000 per year. I retired at 48 and am now considering getting into aviation as a pilot but not because I need the money more because I don’t fish or play golf I.e. I am bored. My son is 16 and I am encouraging him to get his pilots license but not to fly for a living.
You certainly are in the minority of people interested in flight training. Most can't even begin to touch flight training because of the cost barrier of entry. In most of the country, it costs a couple years of average income for entry level individuals just to cover training to get a CFI or charter job. That is ignoring normal living expenses like mortgage/rent/food/utilities/gas/vehicle/etc as well as the cost to get to and from training. 40-50k a year is pretty average for people here even 20-30+ years into their career. It doesn't get much higher than that. Even if they don't have a family and can save 10k a year of that, it would take 5-6 years to save enough to cover their flight training. Those of us with a family, with the motivation and responsibilities attached to drive the commitment for a career change, have it harder. Meanwhile the instructors have been getting tired of dealing with young pilot candidates that quit part way through because they get bored or quit after only their PPL. They would much rather deal with the candidates in their 30s with family commitments that will stick it out.
PPL and instrument rated pilot working on my commercial license here with 170 hours with the goal of becoming an instructor and then airlines. I have loved aviation for as long as I could remember as a little boy (25 years old right now) and I can't see it changing any time soon. To be completely honest, I can't honestly pinpoint what I love about aviation. I just love it. Even though aviation has sort of lost its luster as it was mentioned in the video, it's glamorous for me. I cannot wait to walk through the airport in my pilots uniform. I don't care what other people think. I'm doing this for me.
Flying is fun but when you have to pay off you're massive student loan and are only making 40-50k a year it won't be so fun. I barley got by on 40k with no loan payment good luck. When you want to start a family but are having trouble finding a serious boyfriend/girlfriend because you have a bad schedule and are never around it won't be so fun. If you had rich parents and didn't have to take out a loan it might still be worth it but most of the country couldn't become a pilot without taking out a huge loan. Getting you're liscense is not the expensive part its than many hours of flying experience you need before you can apply to the good jobs that really racks up the debt.
I'm 26 (the oldest of Gen Z) and I'm currently training as a helicopter pilot. I will tell you the number one issue is that our generation has nothing to live for. We do not want to go out of our comfort zone or take a risk, especially if it requires higher education because it's almost entirely futile. I was very fortunate to be in the position I am now, but 95% of my peers are living paycheck to paycheck with the cost of living increasing every month. And no, these aren't people who are buying starbucks multiple times a day. And more to the point, there is a deep cultural rot within western society. There is no shared values or even hope. We live in a crumbling civilization. And all this adds up to young people not being interested in aviation or any other pursuit for that matter. We'd rather sit by and watch society crumble around us because as a generation we have lost the will to live.
HOPE is very powerful and can get men to do anything...but there's no hope left in the current society. What's there to hope for? What's a young man have to look forward to these days? Family is also a great motivator, but we've all seen what's happened with that and the destruction of the nuclear family.
Have you tried being rich? Makes everything easier 😂 had a bunch of 20 something yr old people in my 121 training say "oh wow you're getting into the game late at 30" ....yeah dude, I had to save $100k, my parents didn't buy my way in 😂 just turned 31. Lol I'm not worried. I am so sick of hearing the generic conversations about bidding, schedule, unions and pay constantly. The Airline culture is pretty vanilla
Most people I know are single, everyone is too jaded or busy to have a meaningful relationship. Nobody I know has dreams, I'm a bit older than you but the younger millennials are in the same boat
Unless you can eventually get a job at FX or UP, you will have a marginal career. I discouraged my kids from following me in my career because it isn’t that great of a job, at least flying people. Air Force career, Four airlines, two mergers, two strikes, lost pensions, lost wages, two bankruptcies, back side of clock flying, two physicals a year, six different domiciles, working 33 Christmas holidays in a row, commuting for 22 years, inept management. Should I go on?
As someone from Gen Z, I think you’re correct about the cultural shift. My generation has seen how companies can take advantage of workers and many of us have a very low bullsh*t threshold. When the going gets tough, the tough get going and by going we mean quitting and finding somewhere with better benefits and quality of life. There is no longer any loyalty from companies which also has amplified the problem. Another thing you may consider is the mental health/drug use of the younger generation. Many people my age are addicted to vaping/weed or have anxiety/ADHD/BPD which the FAA isn’t too keen on. From my point of view, there is way too much external stress before you even fly an aircraft to be worth the money. The FAA could pull your medical at anytime for any little thing or the economy go down and you lose your job overnight. All that and you spent 5-10 years of your life building 1500 hours and going into thousands of dollars of debt. The juice does not seem to be worth the squeeze.
@@mh-ht2fpThat strikes me as more than a little disingenuous. Like telling doctors who retire due to the broken nature of American healthcare "you don't actually like helping patients."
You 100% nailed it on the head. Since the age of five all I ever wanted to do was fly. I didn’t care what it was I just wanted to be in the air. That didn’t happen for me for multiple reasons. I’ve been flying for four years now with a ppl now that I actually have the time and money am working on more rating toward my commercial. I am 49 and getting ready to retire From my from my law enforcement career looking to transition into my life long dream job. Since I’ve been flying it has just blown me away how many people really don’t care about aviation or flying. I would have jumped at any opportunity to go in the air if someone asked if I wanted to go flying. Nobody has any interest in it. I think the younger generation thinks of pilots as bus or ups drivers. We are in trouble unless we promote aviation more.
Nope the reason why there is a low interest in becoming a pilot today is not because lack of young people wanna get it but more about the industry. Corona just showed it everyone. Unless you are already in the airline u get treated like shit. If u wanna go start ur training u have two options either do it in a flight school which works together with an airline. Which is very demanding U need to prepare so much for the interview and pay emense amount of money extra just to get a not even granted job guarantee. Other option is to do it in a private school where u pay a lot of money for your license no job guarantee and a big debit. The job is not crises safe as corona has shown. A lot of Lufthansa student pilots got kicked out because Lufthansa didn’t need them atm. Now every thing looks better but the main issue is still that to get there u need a lot of money, time and a lot of self discipline and learning. Just to have no job guarantee or work for budget airlines.
The cost is prohibitive and the govt refuses to do anything but throw money at BS programs and other countrjes, despite considering aviation a vital national interest. Airlines don't go far enough on recruiting and training, organizations can't keep up with scholarships and grants (or lock 95% of them behind diversity requirements aimed at less than 5% of interested candidates), and there are no affordable or even legitimate loan options for flight training. They refuse to acknowledge the fact that it isn't just about the majors. Majors are short on crew, yes, but they already stole from regionals, who already stole from charter ops and CFIs. Now there has been a shortage of instructors and training candidates can't afford training. All with majors facing varying degrees of mandatory retirement up to 35% in the next 8 years. It's ok though, they want to give the majors more money for pilot hiring and build more hangars at GA airports. That will fix the shortages in the training pipeline.
Not everyone has your passion. I flew military and probably the majority of military pilots end up doing something else when they leave. My entire 20 year career was a fight to stay in the cockpit. I was on flight status for eighteen years or so after getting my wings but only eleven years in flying squadrons. Pretty typical for military guys. I started buying and flying my own planes to supplement my military flying. Now, I've been out of the USMC nearly twenty years and am on my twelfth airplane. I was bitten hard at a very early age and the feeling has never left me. Where there is a will, there is a way. What many young people pay for fancy cars would buy an entry level airplane. That's one way to build hours.
@@scottw5315 It is true that one could buy a reasonable plane to build hours in for the price of a fairly well kitted vehicle, most of the available planes are not what gets touted as good trainers. They get overlooked and those with the money for fancy cars aren't going to compromise and get a plane that to them will look run down and simple. 172s are selling sight unseen in some cases for more than 75-80k without good avionics. 182s with decent avionics are well upwards of 200k. Even 150s and 152s are selling upwards of 30-40 with relative ease. Older niche models that used to be in the 10-15 range for a functional plane that might need a little work, are also selling for 30+ minimum. This increase is just in the last 2 years. It just isn't in the budget for the people we NEED in the pipeline instead of the ones with a silver spoon hanging out of their mouth that more often than not get bored pretty quickly.
They need to fill the gap between 250 and 1500 hours. There are few reliable, profitable ways to make a living if you’re in that gap. Granted instructing pays WAY more than when I quit instructing back in 2011, but I feel it’s still inconsistent due to student loads and weather (at least up here in the upper Midwest). You’re supposed to instruct, fly jumpers or tow banners so you can have inadequate multi time and chase more hours in random ways to fill the gap. That was my future in 2010 when I walked away. Maybe it’s different now?
Brilliant mate! Exactly what I think today after almost 3 decades flying in the business. I still make model aircraft today and I still retain the glamor of flying because there’s nothing like seeing a mountain range lit from behind as you climb atop it in the rising sun. People who are watching their computers on the onboard wifi miss it entirely as well as life altogether. As a pilot I got a preview of paradise on this side of life that is worth all the sacrifice, including the sleep depravation, the holiday seasons spent far away from home and the loss of friends in the 5/2 week_weekend routine. My wife is a flight attendant because she only can understand how I feel after a punishing roster and conversely. I always have a meal on he table when she comes home and let her sleep as much as she needs to get back in the world and conversely.It’s not for everyone … As well as having your own business, working with your hands … I have much admiration for craftsmen and people who make their life their passion. Guess what : They’re the happiest people around. That too is my own two cents. ,
I had the same experience in the late 80's early 90's. Decided to leave and never come back. Spent my life and almost retired now in IT, that worked out well for me. I flew the Beech 99's like you did and received hardly any pay.
In 1997, I was introduced to Mesa Airlines and their program that would allows a pilot with an associates degree to fly. I was so excited, and went through the motions to finally figure out, just as you stated, that I would spend tens of thousands of dollars to get a job that paid less than minimum wage. It is no wonder that so few Gen-Xers were able to be pilots. There was just not a seat at the table.
Loved this video, you hit some really good points. I’m 26 on the 767 at a major and wouldn’t trade it for what I signed myself up for in my younger years. I went back to flying King Air medevac at 22 and it led me down some interesting avenues. I look forward to hearing more from ya. Signed, a TransStater that got laid off during COVID-19.
Great video Max. It is too bad that aviation has succumbed to the ravages of time. As you said it is a bus service. even the passengers have changed. Passengers no longer have the spirit of air travel in them, It is now just a hop on the bus and get me there. Passengers have also lost a lot of respect for the air crews; they are just general staff who's only job is to "accommodate" you. To bad as a great career can be made as part of a flight crew. As you mentioned the trades are also suffering. When I was in high school one knew whether they were not going to be able to go the academic route and went to the trade schools. A good career is also available in the trades. Today everyone wants to be an English major or a video games player. They want everything to be easy to obtain or handed out to them. As for the one pilot cockpit for large commercial flights, no way would I endorse that. Cheers Max and keep on flying when you are not modelling, and keep on modelling when you are not flying. And in between, spoil Ms. Max and give Honey lots of belly rubs.
I saw the video game tsunami coming in the early 90s. Thankfully, I was never interested. The time wasted playing games is unreal. Lots of lives ruined because so many young people waste their productive learning years playing video games.. American society has fallen far in terms of "class." Wearing pajamas on airplanes is disgusting to me. Too many parents in my opinion want to be their child's friend instead of teacher, mentor and leader. Fat, lazy and stupid seems to be the new American.
Part of the reason why air travelers are not as enthusiastic is airlines making buying a ticket more complicated than it needs to be, traffic jams, lack of affordable nearby parking, long lines, security, and overpriced bad airport food wears a traveler down. My grandparents stopped flying even though they have the time and money to travel and I get it they just don't have the energy to go through all this $*(#&($# anymore and it kind of sad. People would be alot more enthusiastic if we made getting through the airport faster and easier. I'm not saying get rid of security alltogether but do we really need so many rules? I'd be okay with my chances of dying in an airplane increasing from 1 in a million to 1 in 100,000 if I could get through the airport in 1 hour.
I agree with you 1000% with 16500 jet hours I have been 5 airlines due to 9/11 ,airline bankruptcies, 2008 GFC , pandemic , so I now the ups and downs , this job is a hobby I love .
I was raised on a horse ranch in the 60's. I started driving off road in a 2ton truck at 13. Got my DL at 16. I worked on and rode motorcycles in my teens. I spent a day watching airline crashes. I was amazed how many pilots didn't even know basics so when auto pilots or hydraulics fail they had no idea how to save the plane from crashing. One pilot didn't know how to check what direction he was flying in clear daylight and ran out of fuel over the Amazon!
I’m a boomer with over 37 years in the cockpit, retired 7 years ago at age 65. Loved my career and would do it all again if I was 40 years younger but I’m happy to be retired.
Awesome video. All your points are spot on. I'm just about 5 months into my training. Just got my ppl and ifr rating and I feel a ton of uncertaintly about the future. I've absolutlely loved my experience so far but man, it's rough knowing you're one health event away from never flying again. Not to mention the debt most people have to go into getting their ratings and the slog up to 1500 hours. It's daunting. High highs and low lows is kinda the way I see it. Not to mention the safety aspects of being a brand new pilot in a GA aircraft. I'd imagine that scares a lot of people away. I had no idea how many accidents occurred in GA until getting into this.
Most GA fatalities are avoidable. VFR pilot flying into IMC...skipping annuals and/or airframe specific maintenance requirements...not doing a pre-flight and/or run ups...simple stuff.
All very valid points. I started my career in 1980 in night mail and freight flying, and end it next month at AA. The pilots I see coming out of the military still remind me of the adventurous sort but still very different from the Korean era vets I flew with as a newbie. The new kids coming out of the civilian world are very much a different sort. I walk away from the job shaking my head and I wish them the best.
It's basically a rich man's industry. Here in the UK, there are 0 opportunities for student loans to pay for school. I went the modular route and I spent the best part of £70k so far just getting my hours, single/multi/night/irr (UK specific). I still need to pay for my CPL then get my instructor rating and work for pennies. It's not something you can get in to unless you have a significant amount of money on the side, one to pay for the costs and two to survive while you train.
There is not a pilot shortage. I’m 900 hours CAMEL and I can’t get anyone to even call me back. There are a lot of non ATP rated pilots ready to go but If you don’t have 1500 it’s either instructing at $20/ flight hour or nothing.
Bridging the gap between training and ATP is struggle. Hang in there, I just got instrument current again after a year of working a stable job on the ground. It's too bad that the course isn't always direct to, huh?
I wanted to be a pilot since i was a child, but the cost of training and the volatility of the industry turned me away. I attempted to apply for airline cadet programmes and military but competition was far to stiff. Even trying to get a private license is tough due to the cost of training and distance to the closest airport.
I know someone who got hired as a pilot last year with one of the big 3. I saw him for the first time a couple months ago and he gained a significant amount weight. I'm sure its hard for some people to stay slim with crazy schedules and airport food.
I think it's more stress related than food related. Most fast food places, or in this case airport food options, have some kind of "Chicken Salad" or variation of that. Skip the soda and fries...get a turkey sandwhich with a water instead.
8 years working on computers in an office since graduating college and I'm about to blow my brains out. Thankfully that has provided the financial steadiness to commit to what has always been my passion. Hopefully looking at getting my instrument rating and commercial by end of next year. I honestly don't know how people cope with white collar jobs in this country. People like to complain about being pilots but honestly, try being always on-call, dealing with coworkers who don't mind sitting in front of the computer at 10pm pinging you about sh*t that doesn't really matter in the name of shareholder value, not being able to disconnect from work, getting bugged on weekends or when you're out sick. It's brutal. Couple that with the recent push to embrace AI and further dissociate from the real world. And people wonder why mental health issues are at a record high and everyone is medicated just to cope with reality. We need fewer computer jobs.
25 plus years ago as a young pilot the older guys would say they have had enough and ready to go. I didn't understand it, this is our dream. Now I'm the old guy with a few years to go and I completely understand them now.
maybe its shifting interest and its definitely part of the problem, but working at a university flight school, just this semester we had over 200 applicants for our pilot program. 370 students in our roster currently. Training has been ramping up these past few years, I started flight training in 2021, just as the pandemic came to a slow and I was able to get a spot. However I think the overarching issue is training cost. It is prohibitively expensive to do flight training these days. Here I am finishing up my commercial training and all in Ive already spent over 40k 15 for private 15 for instrument and so far 10 for my commercial training, and with hour costs and requirements im probably going to spend another 10 before i'm done. Loans are impossible to get unless its through a university program and even then you have to tack on an added cost for the degree. Once its all said and done, I'll be in debt for over 100k, and If i didnt have my scholarships, it'd be 150k. Im lucky my interest rate is only 4% and doesnt start accruing till after graduation. But now people arent as lucky. Interest rates start at 7% now. 100k of debt at 7% you'll be making payments for 10 years minimum and that's 10 years you cant buy a house. Thats if you get a good job. Right out of the gate i'll have to be a CFI, and thats great and all. But ill be grinding for at least 2 years part time at best making $25 a flight hour at best. You really have to want to do this job and be willing to take on lots of debt and pay your dues, and right now the market is at its peak. Hiring at the regionals is slowing and has stopped in most places. UPS is already talking about furloughs. The days of hitting ATP mins and getting hired are over. I'm seeing it in real time. Theres a million problems I see contributing to it daily that I could talk about, but the biggest one is cost of training, and CFI pay. Talk to any young CFI at the flight schools or universities, their goal is to get out as fast as possible. not to teach.
The forecast is for a shortage but we never know what tomorrow's need will really be. Yes, the mom & pop scholls have dwindled and the 'pilot factories' are super expensive.
I fully agree, I was at a mom & pop school and tried to move on to a large university for my training. What I saw was sad and truthfully made me wonder if this is the right career for me. I saw lots of CFI/II’s just in it for the hours and it felt like I was paying extra for less attention/detail to instruction? Aviation is my original passion but with this and the other topics mentioned in the video it’s getting harder to see that this will pay off in the long run. I’m continuing training but plan on taking classes within other fields/subjects.
If you managed to make loans at a college work, I am surprised. 4 different colleges with pilot programs flat out told me flight fees are "non-qualifying" fees and that I can't use student loans for them. Rental, fuel, dual, DPE, checkrides, FAA exams were all explicitly listed as being ineligible. Only tuition, class instruction (not ground..... which seems weird.... not dual instruction), books/supplies, and room and board would qualify. They advertised 2 year programs averaging 48k, of which only 7-8k they said I could use student loans for. The state even has a "last dollar" grant available that covers the cost if they choose to apply it to their program, and only one in the state has done that. Of course they would be the one 3 hours or so away. All other flight training loans I have seen advertised end up being double digit interest with short terms of 6-10 years. Given for most, training and hour building takes 5+ years, that is prohibitive to say the least. Maybe the difference is 2 year certificate vs 4 year degree programs, but 99% of pilots don't need a degree and I already have a bachelors degree. Other certificate programs, technical programs, and 2 year degrees qualify.
@@eleflux6609 I can see where you're coming from, it almost seems like these universities are money hungry? thankfully I didn't take out loans for the semester I spent at the large school (I noticed too many problems and left quickly). I went to a 2 year program and my goal was to get the R-ATP through the 4 year uni. Once in the university, I did hear of problems such as students struggling to keep enough in their accounts before they were locked out due to being close to the $1,000 minimum balance ($1000 minimum is crazy high in my opinion). In retrospect, I think it would have been better to just stay at the 2 year and avoid the headaches at the university. I'm back at my old flight school and continuing, the cool thing is that they offer other certificates (A&P) and degrees in other fields to explore. Would definitely recommend Part 61, especially if you have a degree already and want to go at your own pace.
Enjoyed the video and I like your takes on the issues. As a 30yr old plumber who's first choice was to be a pilot I'm really considering going for it now. Got my ppl in 2010
no shortage here in western Europe, ive been qualified for over 10yrs but still have low hours and no opportunities, im unempluyed. i wish the US would open up to us more
Could be applied to so many trades including military / agriculture /construction / teaching …. The internet has given people so much more choice and opened up opportunities to earn online.
I'm 34, saved up about 80K going to quit my IT job in a year and sign up for ATP, I'm currently studying for my PPL, IFR and Commercial ratings. I'm scared shitless to be honest, but it's always been my dream to be a pilot and fly a plane for a living... Getting my hours is going to be painful :( have to be a CFI no other way around it... survive on half of what I make right now in IT for a while...
Hi I'm 34 IT engineer just finished up my PPL. Stay focused friend! Not sure what the future will hold for us but I know that if we don't try then we will regret it
Welcome aboard homie. I’m a programmer and make good money, about to get my PPL. I will be taking a HUGE pay cut once I get to the right seat at a regional. If you think it is hard in the US, you’re lucky you’re not in Central America like me. It’s a bleak future down here.
There are very few people coming out of school who really have mechanical knowledge or interest. Im 17 and in training for aircraft maintenance, I have seen that almost nobody wants to learn to fix anything anymore. It seems theres a diminishing amount of people with real dreams for the future. People just aren’t interested in knowing how to work on cars, or anything else for that matter.
Great video! To share my perspective, I live in Brazil, getting my commercial pilot license. Here, the process is simpler to get to the airline's minimum required, which is 200 to fly a Caravan and 500 to start in an ATR 72. The problem here is also how to get these 200 hours because we need to be lucky or have lots of contacts to get an aviation "godfather" who will give us the opportunity. Also, the instruction aviation is having a hard time, since many schools here are so old (more than 90 years like São Paulo Airclub) that they are no-profit organizations. We used to have 2 hangars and more than 20 airplanes. Most of them piper Cherokees, arrows, and Senecas, and now we have only seven. Our only Seneca for the multi-engine rating has been stuck in an overhaul for more than 2 years now.
Great video! The transformation of the airline pilot culture could also be a sign that the pure passion for the aviation is becoming a rare motivation of new pilots entering the industry.
I worked at a sawmill where some of the millwrights were former A&Ps. Why did they leave aviation? Money! They would rather sweat while covered in grease and sawdust for $30 an hour than work down the road at Sikorsky for 19 an hour.
Very informative! Just my .02, but I think of the issues back in the early 2000's with the Regionals; prospective Pilots getting into the Industry as a Career, then get shunted into a Regional job that barely pays enough to survive, let alone the pitfalls of working in a system where the Pilots are just commodities serving the Suits, Skirts and Power Pantsuits in the Conference Room. Remember "Crash Pads"? Are those still even a thing?
I really have interest in becoming a commercial pilot but I have a lot of "issues" The main thing is I have no money, No parents/family to help with a loan, My credit score sucks, and I'm barley making ends meet as is. I really do not want to join the military as a alterative to this due to personal beliefs. The other thing is my memory is not the best I'm only 23, But I have a very hard time remembering basic things and names. I'm not sure I would fit well into a cockpit. I have had serious depression in my life and I when I was younger I attempted to take my own life which resulted in me getting a 302 on my record "involuntary commitment for psychiatric placement at an inpatient psychiatric unit" which has labeled me "danger to self or others" I have been slowly bringing myself back up and I'm a lot better now, but with that on my recorded I'm not sure its even possible for me to get into a cockpit. I have talked with lawyers before because I wanted to purchase a gun about a year ago and there is the chance I can get it removed from my record (for some serious money of course) I would really appreciate any insight from any pilots out there, Is it worth pursing? Do I even have a chance at becoming a pilot with that 302 tainting my history? How would you start the process of becoming a pilot in todays world?
I feel for you man, but honestly, I think it's very unlikely you would be issued a medical certificate. I wouldn't say it's for sure impossible, but the suicide attempt and involuntary commitment would be a big problem with the FAA. You could always find an Aviation Medical Examiner and make an appointment for a medical exam for an FAA medical exam and see what they say. They typically charge $150-$250 for an exam and you could get firm answer on if it's approvable under certain circumstances (Many years since the issue, taking an FAA approved medication that keeps you stable, etc) Google Aviation MEdical examiners in your area and go from there.
Youth weren't interested in cars because the age you grew up in made it easy to buy your first car at 16 and fill up your tank without bankrupting yourself for another week. I'm surprised there are any pilots at all with how much money it costs to do it on your own
I was flight instructing in the early 1970's and ended up being a first officer in a 1900. A friend said aviation was 95% nonsense. I totally agree. The airlines have been saying they are short on pilots all this time but there were furloughs, and very hard to get hired. I quit around 1975 because there was no money in it. That was very hard to take after all that work and expense. If I had it to do again, I would get the single engine Commercial and instrument rating and stop there. I didn't like the airlines anyhow. I wanted to fly fighters but it wasn't to be, even with the Viet Nam war at full pitch. (Glad I missed it). Lack of sleep is the worst of it. Having parts falling off Boeing aircraft now days doesn't help.
There needs to be a conversation about relaxing the 1500 hr ATP requirement for right-seat entry to the regionals. That right seat used to be the place where you gained the hours and experience to get your ATP, move to the left seat and then onto the majors. 1 accident does not = the norm. I worked my own way thru commercial MEI, and with about 400 hrs, tried 3x to gain my CFI: 9/11 stopped me, then 2 separate mom&pops took my block time prepaid and ran off with the money/closed down, and then the local university says they only want to train me from 0 hours or else hire me if I already have my CFII. I love flying but can no longer afford nor justify to do it just for fun, especially as I get older and the class 1 becomes more of a threat than a given, as others have said-it’s a juice/ squeeze equation now.
I am 25 years old and I work as a mechanic, but I have always wanted to be a pilot. I don’t know if I want/can switch careers at this point, but I think that in depth mechanical knowledge would help pilots out greatly. However, I am concerned that AI might take over many pilot jobs and other professions in the future, while mechanics and other service jobs might be more secure.
The VA will pay for flight training after PPL. A tour in the military is a good way to get a bundle in financing for any degree and I said flight training too.
Cars were easier to fix and didn't have computers years ago. Muscle cars were the rage, and most guys learned to fix them. Now, cars are computerized and harder to diagnose, so less DIYers out there.
I respect that there are people who make a living having more expertise in something than I do. Paying them for that service helps more people than my trying to be self-sufficient in all things. On a related note, I see my coworkers who are car guys almost constantly fixing something on their project cars while mine has mercifully run smoothly. They enjoy it, but I wouldn't. I may do some maintenance on my motorcycle, but my car is only a means of getting from point A to B as stated in the video.
Primary issue is cost as a barrier of entry. When you are staring down 60-70k+ (or maybe even 80k+ now with hourly increasesthe last year) before you can even get an entry level job, with student loans not an option (ineligible flight fees... only tuition, books, and room and board counting which is a fraction of the cost), and flight training loans being double digit with short terms..... it just doesn't make sense. As to youth not interested, I wish I had access to EAA and AOPA demographics for scholarship applications. EAA email last year said 1700 applicants if I remember right, and this year said over 4000. The interest is there overall, but people can't afford it. AOPA doesn't say how many that I am aware of. I had to have two surgeries last year or I would have started and wife had partial paralysis this year giving us no income the last 7 months. Had $17k saved for flight training and that plus much more is long since gone. My 95% on knowledge test for private expires next April, so then I have to pay for that again too. Increasingly turning into an impossible career change. However, a college flight instructor a few hours from here did state the washout rate for young pilots is insane right now. They just decide they don't want to do it after they get their scholarships and their private pilot. He said he would take candidates with a family and prior careers in their 30s any day. In his words, "At least you all have done enough to know what you definitely don't want to do anymore, even if you don't know for sure where you want to end up. You will stick to training and complete a change to a career in aviation." I don't see why the government is ignoring the problem. Aviation is considered a national security interest and vital to our economy and way of life. Yet we throw money at BS degrees and aviation in other countries, while watching our industry crumble under it's own weight and pressures of the unions. Promises to revitalize GA in the re-authorization and all we get are promises to build more hangars at GA airports and talks of increasing hiring at majors. As if the vast majority of all of aviation doesn't start with GA flight training. Those hangars will do a lot of good housing the planes no one can afford to fly or even train to fly. On top of that, some majors facing up to 35% mandatory retirement in the next 8 years when training and hour building for most pilots takes 5+ years. At least a temporary grant or scholarship program from the government would be much more effective at rectifying the issue, with a requirement for successful career placement as a pilot or it functions as a loan. That would prevent the funds being used up by everyone that just wants a PPL, at least in the long term. In addition, any measure NEEDS to be merit based. Diversity in scholarship and grant programs is locking down funds that could be used for a lot of pilots to be trained. It could be on the extreme side, but the appearance is that 95% of funds are earmarked for 5% or less of interested candidates lately in the name of artificial diversity. I understand marketting to attract diversity, but don't mandate it or make it a requirement of the funds. There are just as many, and likely more, financially deserving and interested white male candidates that are turned down because they don't fit the minority requirements for a particular program. Every program should be based off who is most likely to succeed AND make a career out of aviation.
I always joke that my dad’s cabin is a 70’s social media platform. He talked about having no problem getting friends to come over to build and then when done with the tools they would drink around the bbq at dinner time.
Well, no...The corporation's fudiciary duty is also to their employees and their customers. But that's gotten trampled on by overpaid CEOs. But the tide is now turning for American workers.
Except for for a few biggies like Embry-Riddle or FIT (which are technically colleges) there are not that many overpaid CEOs in aviation but I get your overall point. You are corrrect about the current tide as we working airline pilots have rarely had it so good. That, perhaps more than any other metric, proves the current shortage. How long the happy time will last is yet to be seen. It is probably a reason for the sudden push to the single pilots cockpit (which the unions are not going to allow anytime soon). I was at the regionals when this began and we had tolower our requirements by half. I did hiring at the major I work at now and we had to make some adjustments to the requirements as well. The training dept is going full bore all the time and we are still hiring.
Any business ultimately only has a duty to their stakeholders. However, that obviously involves taking care of their employees and customers to an extent. It just isn't the primary concern. Corporate social responsibility is still a relatively new concept, and certainly not a binding one.
@@eleflux6609 Actually it's an old school concept, but unfortuntely the so-called masters of the Universe have somehow extricated this from B-Schools. This is why we are having more and more strikes. After the gilded age came labor unrest and now we're repeating that piece of history.
This has to be the most boomer theory ever. Plenty of people would love to build a career flying. Who TF can afford to break into the industry with 80k+ in debt all to get a low salary long hours pilot gig?
There is definitely a shortage I’m in Australia and know 5 people gone to the USA to work ? We struggle here but the real struggle is getting experienced workers
I tried to get my private pilot license bc I wanted a career change 10 years ago, I spent 15k and ran out of money and couldn’t find a way to raise 80k for all the training. So I became an electrician (which I love btw) 🤷🏻♂️…but GL with your shortage bros!
The biggest thing is cost. I always wanted to fly but there's no way I have the money for that. I spend 90% of my time trying to keep food on the table
honestly the biggest hurtle that the aviation industry has for getting people as pilots is financing the flight training and often times moving to a location where flight training is even practical. your typical flight hour in a 2020 or newer aircraft will run about 230-400 for a single engine then about another 80 for instruction so all in a student is looking at paying around 300-500 per instruction hr in most modern places. if they have planes from the 70s (wich most places rely almost exclusively on ) you're looking at an all in cost of about 240 per flight instruction hour. do that over 80 or so hrs for a ppl that can be from 50k to 19k for a ppl. in the end to get to meii a potential pilot can expect to pay about 100k at an accelerated school (most people end up going over and getting charged 20-30% over) and around 200k for a 4 year program not incuding housing.
That sounds wrong if you're talking about the US. I'm in a major city and the rate is about $225 wet for an Archer with G1000 and $62 for instruction. That's the priciest place in the area. A mom and pop shop will be more like $180-$200 and $50-55 per hour. Also, a PPL does not take 80 hours for most people. 40 is the requirement (and not all of it will involve the instructor as only 20 hours are required for instruction). Some places will require you do 80 hours but that's just a money grab scheme by shady schools. Most people can do it below 60 hours. I would say expect to pay $15k on the low end and about $30k on the very high end. It absolutely should never be $50k unless you're being taken advantage of or you're taking a very long time between lessons and lose some of the muscle memory before your check ride.
@@adamsrosales6519 I’m in San Diego. A getting a faa inspector for a check ride is a year wait over here so everyone uses dpe. The majority of dpe over here are gate keepers so it will never be just minimums to pass a checkride, the majority need 80 hrs if they work and do it twice a week instead of everyday it will be more. The bottom end is 140 for a steem gauge 1960-1970 steem gauge 172 and the top end is several hundreds to learn in a new cirrus or diamond, instruction rate at a 141 school starts at 70 and goes up from there, all in instruction fees plus rental will take 225 per flight hr and that’s not including gas if they are non wet rate or post ground training. 15k is low but duable I and my friend in the navy paid just shy of 20k for our ppl. It would be double that for someone getting a ppl in a cirrus, the typical rental cost is around 400-500 over here for one and then instruction is about 150 so all in every hr is about 500-600, if a student does cirrus and uses 60 hrs that’s just shy of 40k at 80 hrs that’s 48k. And yes I do know people who’ve gotten their ppl with cirrus and there are about 3 or four schools over here with cirrus fleets so there’s demand for it 🤷♂️
Thanks for the analysis and musings. I am 58 and still have a dream to get my private pilot license as I am of your generation, I believe. You are spot on. we played outside and did things with our hands, fixed stuff, played baseball, road bicycles. kids today only worship their cell phones.
I've been flying almost my whole life. If anybody asks what I think about becoming a career pilot and are not sure, I can usually talk them into some other career! Airlines are definitely not worth the trouble, so many other jobs are easier to get into for a fraction of the cost. And guess what, the FAA loves to violate pilots!
If you look at it as just a career to make money, then yes, absolutely not worth it. If you have a love for it then you will probably find that you will regret not going after it eventually. Life is not about amassing accomplishments or making money. It's about being happy and fulfilled with your decisions by the time you die. No career that pays well and has a lot of competition is a walk in the park. I work in technology making almost as much as a captain at a major, but I'm constantly stressed, can't unplug from work, and work up to 60-70 hours a week most weeks. At least when you're done flying and go home, you're not expected to hop on a plane again to do one last minute route during your off time. The ability to not take work home with your is a major advantage that pilots take for granted.
I really would like to do a career change from software development to pilot, but I've already paid my student loans off it was 65k+ cheaper than getting pilot training from 0 hrs. Even my wife is cool with the change, but that price tag is a major block for me. The plan is to budget for a ppl, instrument s, maybe a cfi, and some additional safety training so I can be as safe as possible in the GA community. That's probably as far as I'll go.
Great video. One question that I always have is will I ( a student pilot currently getting my ratings) be able to enjoy a full career in aviation? There are already autonomous startups looking to get certified by the FAA as well as airlines pushing for single pilot operations.
I can see cargo going auto in our lifetime, but I don’t think passenger planes will go full automation any time soon. People are very skeptical of AI, especially in emergencies
I got my ratings about the same time as you....on could get their private ticket for under thousand bucks! And we had many who would fly for free including ex military who already had a paycheck! I went the CFI/ 135 route. And employers took advantage of this ; with sub standard aircraft maintenance! My income capped at 50 k.( flt instructors pay was 5 bucks/hr when I started)...one could rent a 172 for ten bucks/ hr. You always had to have ability to have another type of work to survive. And thats the secret to surviving! Kids nowadays are screwed cos they still live at home with parents no job skills; I see it now,no motivation to do anything!!!. I left aviation to raise my own kids...
100k just to lose everything over a medical issue, through no fault of your own. Is it any surprise aspiring pilots are looking at that and saying NO ?
It's all supply and demand. The military no longer "freely" trains as many pilots as they once did and civilian flight training keeps on getting more expensive. Deregulation allowed more of the public to fly and the glamour of air travel began to wither away as flying became routine for average income earners. Most passengers dont see the pilots that flew the flights that they were on let alone have a conversation with them. It's a mass transportation business.
I am an aerospace engineering student because I figured it cost too much to get into the piloting scene and I’d rather not be a commercial pilot anyway. (I have school benefits that does not cover ppl) I’m hoping one day to be a pilot as some sort of career like as an instructor.
The regionals were the worst thing to happen to aviation. Essentially, the Majors got to farm out a portion of their route structure and pay next to nothing. Scope clauses at the Majors prohibited it for a while but through lobbying and leverage they water down the scope clauses and eventually corporate America wins in the end and and we see this expansion of low paying jobs where people are over worked, they burn out and leave the industry and tell their stories. Is it any wonder that young people have said “No Thanks”?
I have asked people when they are thinking about learning to fly "have you ever mowed the lawn?" "Sailed a boat?" "Learned to snow or water ski?" "Mountain bike?" It's interesting how much more ahead of the game these seemingly mundane activities translate. And if people have never done these types of things outside aviation, they will be paying a flight instructor top dollar to learn things that could have been learned in the back yard or out on a lake fishing. If you do all those things, AND you're a MUSICIAN, you are well ahead of the pack already.
$17/hr in 1998 is about $33/hr in 2023. Silver Airways is the only company in the US flying ATRs today and their starting pay is $52/hr. If you were to adjust that pay to 1998, the pay would be $27/hr. Anyway the point is that your $17/hr is nowhere near comparable to the Wal Mart employee today. You made more and the cost of living was far cheaper. You could realistically save for a mortgage off that ATR job.
I’ve kinda seen both ends of the spectrum. I started training in 2006 at a big part 141 flight school with a 6 figure loan and made around 23k my first year at the regionals. That’s where the turn off of the career was for most people. For what ever reason everyone was laser focused on “1st year pay” “this is what pilots get paid”. Which was very much not true. No one on the outside looking in could tell you what second year pay was, what captain pay was, what guys were making at the majors. Everyone was hyper focused on year 1 regional Fo pay and it turned them away from the career. I considered probationary pay like an internship, I was lucky to be getting paid. Year 2 takes a substantial 30% increase. My timing initially wasn’t great, had to instruct until 2,000hrs because the economic downturn (prior to the 1500hr rule). Started off rocky at my first regional, they furloughed up to the class hired behind me, company threatened to shut down if we didn’t take concessions to match our peers. I was the most junior guy on my aircraft in the company for 1.5 years, stuck on reserve for 3 years and was an FO for 6 years. After I upgraded to CA thing started to change slowly. Moved on to a legacy only a few years later. Hired February 2020. Covid brought everything to a screeching halt, hiring stopped 2 classes behind us. I was furloughed by October, was out for only 8 months not really sure if I was going to be back in weeks or decades. Now because of the hiring back log from Covid and the early retirement packages, working for a company with the highest retirement rate, for the first time in my career my seniority is sky rocketing ahead of the hiring wave. We are now hiring about triple the normal rate and double what current attrition is. At 4 years in I can hold captain at my legacy if I so choose, now with a new contract that once daunting looking 6 figure student loan, I’m making enough to pay it off every 4 months. Assuming retirement age stays at 65 I still have 30 years left in my career. Sure there are lots a variables and unknowns, single pilot will almost cut the seniority list in half, another big industry down turn, medical issues or something unforeseen. But for now I’m very happy with where I’m at in my career, my quality of life, and compensation and work rules. My only advice is to make sure you are playing the long game, not making moves for the now but making them to set yourself up for the future. Thinking near sighted detoured many from getting into a career that pays “23,000 a year”. And vice versa, today thinking about the 150,000 signing bonus, regional pilots making 200,000+ and short 2 year path to a major without looking at the back half of your career knowing the majors will have hired half their seniority list in the next year or 2, most of those guys in their 30s retiring no time soon, that your seniority will come to a screeching halt at 50% relative seniority for the last 15 years and in the career as a whole potentially throwing away millions during the back half of the career. But to be completely honest I think what is keeping people out today has changed from what kept people out a decade ago (the money). The younger generation just isn’t willing to put in the effort and hard work
I would not want to be a pilot, the weird hours, working on holidays, missing my kids soccer game and trying to stay married, let alone the cost of getting all your ratings.
In excellent health was forced out because I turned the magical age of 65. I can’t tell you how many fat, out of shape 30 year old first officers I’ve flown with that are on several medications and get out of breath walking to the gate.
Dude you nailed it! I to am a 1970’s era pilot! However I earned a degree in Electrical Engineering while flying! And I was lucky I was employed as an engineer and the company provided me an airplane for transportation as a bio med engineer. As time went on I was lucky to get a job as a Falcon 20 and Lear Jet driver as an FO. Later on I upgraded to PIC. On both airplanes. Would I suggest aviation as a career! Probably Not! I am a low time with 14000, hours flying! Because I was in the school house training pilots
I think it is due to the medicals, some thing like ADHD and depression technically aren’t disqualifying but the laws around them are so convoluted and restrictive that if you have it unless you want to put in a lot of effort and have an extremely minor case there’s a chance you’ll get a cert and adhd alone eliminates about 40% of Americans ridiculous.
They’d rather have pilots drink their mental health issues away and keep their mouths shut about it than actually treating them and having an actual full functioning/happy worker. It’s a fucking joke, and all of us in the business are part of the circus. Look, I love flying, and have found nothing I’m better at in my life than flying, but the industry is a joke.
It is just a question of barrier to entry. I got out of high school in 1998, and it seamed almost impossible to become a pilot, unless you were athletic enough and had perfect vision and could get into the military. Getting into the military is or was very difficult. I tried to get into the marines to fly after college but no way short of maybe steroids would of I been able to meet the physical requirements. I keep hearing of companies needing people and it seems like Bizarro world to me. Well paying places that would only hire you if you knew someone are now willing to hire anyone who wonders into HR.
20 y/o here wishing money would fall out of the sky so i can get in the cockpit quicker but sadly our economy is falling part piece by piece so ill probably just stick to watching them takeoff from the other side of the airport fence...
The TSA security requirement for pilots is insane. A pilot doesn’t need a gun, bomb, or knife to take down an airplane. They should be able to walk right through with a badge.
I'm a 63 year old woman...and I can change a tire...jum a car...rebuild an engine...change my oil...drive my 1968 SS Camaro 4 speed stick shift...drive a semi...drive a tow truck...etc! Kids CAN'T DO ANYTHING! I have a great respect for pilots! And they should be paid more...they are responsible for lives...I'm a retired RN. We need our pilots! And no...I don't want to fly on a commercial jet with only one pilot!! Are they kidding???
I'm sorry to say this but most of kids nowadays know absolutely nothing about anything, except maybe all the garbage those "influencers" put on the internet.
I tried to become a pilot when I was younger but the lessons were just so expensive, ended up working online for years. Met a regional pilot a decade ago who had just been hired by United. He trained for the regional and now is a Sim trainer for United. We talk about flying all the time. He assures me I could fly and land the Triple 7, not because of my 63 hours in the logbook but because of my computer background and huge interest in flying…. Crazy!
I feel your pain! With all the ups and downs in my aviation career, none was worse than the 2000’s era of slave wages and the Covid era. I was lucky enough to get an early retirement offer from UAL in 2019, I jumped at it. I was 59 going on 69 at the time. Since I would have refused the Jab, I would have been all but fired and wound up without any retirement other than my little 401K. I haven’t been on a flight since my Fini Flight.
I refused the jab and thought I was getting fired (not yet a pilot but a firefighter looking at flying as a second career). Praise God I didn't get fired after all but I feel for you. And then United slapped you all in the face with the "we're moving forward" slogan. I'm glad you had a good career!
Old pilots isn’t the problem… it is young people not wanting to pay more than it costs to go to medical or law school with the chance it all was for nothing if they get medically disqualified.
It isn't quite that expensive, but the premise is there all the same. Why spend 60-80k+ depending on how things play out before you can get an entry level job, with no affordable loan options.... when you can spend 1/8 to 1/4 the cost and have the make a similar amount in rural areas and more in suburban/metro areas.
Flight fees not qualifying for student loans, double digit flight training loans with short terms, and 95% of scholarship/grant programs/funds locked behind diversity that targets 5% or less of interested pilot candidates.... it has become a perfeft storm when coupled with some majors facing up to 35% mandatory retirement in the next 8 years when training and hour building for most pilots takes 5+ years before they can go regional.
I had to have 2 surgeries last year and wife had medical issues and issues with her employer that kept us with no income the last 7 months (though we can start getting back into things now, not that that is a quick process despite what they like to say about the job market). I had 17k saved for flight training, but that disappeared in a hurry, and I was declined for a flight scholarship twice by EAA and AOPA.
Increasingly becoming an impossible career change, though all the instructors I have spoke to would rather have people in 30s with prior careers and families, because we have the maturity/responsibility and perseverance to stick to it and make it a career. A lot of young pilots have either been quitting before PPL finished or shortly after, having used funds that could have gone to career seekers instead.
@@eleflux6609 I am a college age young man working towards the airlines. I was amazed by watching my friends work as a pilot and it was what made me want to become a pilot. I hope I can drive myself to doing the crazy amounts of work that will pay off in the end though.
I live in europe ( im 19 years old ) i have a glider pilot licence and an powered aircraft licence and 135 h of flight time i graduated high school first of my class and now im studying engineering , I have aplyed for Wizz air (cadet programe) and a passed the theoreticall test .... I would fly for them for 0 pay even in the middle of nowhere and i don't care where they send me or when i have to weak up or anything else ....there is will but from my point of view they don't seem to need pilots i still havent heard back from them while passing there thests ( it is just the interview that separates me from them but for some reasone they don't want to speak with me anymore)
and where I come from ....there are many others like me .... i don't think the young people are the problem the whole menegment stuf is ( at least in my case)
It makes zero sense to become a pilot over doing something more assured and financially stable. Want to fly? Become a doctor/dentist/lawyer and buy a baron 😂
All careers that cost $100,000 or more to attain are suffering, not just pilots. Young people are becoming wise to the student loan scam, and they are very wisely refusing to play the game. No way someone smart enough to be a pilot will volunteer to be tied down to a 6-figure loan before he or she turns 25 that will end up costing him or her twice that before it's paid off.
TLDR? The cost of higher education in the US has increased more than 130% since the 1990s. The US needs to find a way to make pilot training, and training for all necessary professions, reasonable again if you want people to fill the demand.
It really has gotten out of hand.
Now the regionals will give them huge bonuses to pay off their loans.
You need to pay a lot for the good jobs. Those are the only good jobs left for Americans. Everything else is undercut by global trade or immigration. I hear people suggest IT. I cannot think of a worse career. India is pumping out a million IT workers a day and getting instantly enrolled into the H1B scam system. They suck at the job but they will work for minimum of $30k/yr less
really? @@737Parkie
100k to get a job that you might lose due to no fault of your own because of some medical issue. Now you have non-transferable skills, worthless certificates, and possibly a worthless degree.
I am a retired AA international Captain .
Presently at AA new hires are upgrading to Captain within 3 years
In my case , the Navy paid for ALL my training - it invests about $1M to produce a pilot
I had a 4 year active duty commitment
You can end run this my joining the National Air Guard or Air Force Reserves
You can obtain a paid for college degree , then get a Officer Pilot Slot in your
Air Guard unit - not competing against Air Force academy grads etc
I had 15 years just fling LAX Hawaii
I have passive income for life and had a great career ❤
The army is up to a 10 year service obligation for new pilots :/
The army is up to a 10 year service obligation for new pilots. Happy for you though!
AF is 10 year commitment now. Thank you for your service.
Unfortunately that solution requires US citizenship. I mean shit, I’d do it for the USAF to fly and to have the chance to shoot at Russia or West Taiwan.
@@spitfire_flyer5659obviously you need to be a citizen, is that a surprise to you?
The high up front cost is a big problem. If airlines want to generate pilots they need to make their own flight schools and provide the Cessnas for free so you don't have to pay $150/hr for school. My son had to work 5 years at Walgreens to get his Commercial and Instructor rating. That takes rare character today.
Well like every generation. The kids who are raised right succeed and most of the rest don't. While it was a tough road for your son it made a man out of him. Boys don't become men just because they turn 18 or 21 or 31. Men are forged in adversity. Sounds cliche' but its largely true.
Im 26 and have two years as an airline pilot. I have already seen how crazy this industry is. My class date at the regionals wound up being delayed 18mo due to covid. Then once hired I flew my butt off and was flying widebodies in just 10mo. Now regionals arent even hiring FOs because they have a captian shortage. There are so many moving parts to all this but I have an interview scheduled with my (planned) career destination. Just hoping that my seniority would move fast enough to avoid furlough in the next downturn, or that they decide to give out early retirements to the senior pilots.
Even with the 18mo delay for regional training I think it has been well worth it. I truly love my job and all the people i've met. That being said if I had a wife and kids to care for it would have made all of this much more stressful.
Thanks for the insight on what to expect. I will be separating from the military fairly soon to start my training, with the goal of an ATP down the line. I can't say I'm not nervous about everything. I just hope all the headache that I know I'll endure will be worth it in the end.
Also, as a ATP, and as you get older, you can be one medical exam away from unemployment!
That's partly true with almost every career in the US. Say you get cancer one day or have a big heart attack and require months off to recover. While jobs can't discriminate against you per federal and state law once they've agreed to accommodate your treatment, they can absolutely choose not to accommodate it and fire you on the spot once you let them know. They can cite anything from safety reasons to financial. hardship. Now it's true that the FAA is a lot less forgiving because they can absolutely prevent you from flying forever, it's still not a rosy picture elsewhere. Especially since medical assistance is tied to having a job and just a week's stay in a hospital here for a major condition can bankrupt you without insurance.
The fact is that we live in a very individualistic country. Either you're fit enough to work and produce or you're basically f*cked. Our social safety net is a joke.
Many great points. For my kids, they watched their dad being gone all the time. Lived through the lost decade making crap pay with 18years to captain at a major airline. I was close to quitting and changing careers.
“If you never got furloughed , made it to the left seat of a Major Airline
in 6 years as I did
Retired with a couple of million
You’ve had a blessed lifen
Over 20 years ago, I was one of those guys that wanted to be a commercial pilot….and after a year of flying jet charter service, I had learned enough about the actual workings of the industry that I realized that being a pilot was basically indulging in a crappy lifestyle for the privilege of being able to fly expensive airplanes very fast, using the skills you’ve worked very hard to attain and spent much money to develop. I also realized that the aviation business is a pyramid, and only the people near the very top of the pyramid, flying top corporate jets or having lots of seniority for our major carriers, are the people making the real money. The people at the bottom of the pyramid are inspecting pipe lines and sending out resumes and trying to build enough time…..and once they get the job, they sit on reserve and they don’t make anywhere near the money that they deserve because the carriers can’t afford to pay that money. If anyone asks me if their son or daughter should become a pilot in the aviation industry, the only thing I tell them is to fly for the military, and while you’re flying for the military get a degree in something else so you can have a decent life. The entire aviation industry richly deserves a real pilot shortage….. and not the BS one that they were talking about 20 years ago.
The pilot shortage is here and has been here for the last 1.5yrs. It is a pyramid but has been more right sized. The next black swan event is always around the corner.
@@dustyrhodes2717 Well, the swans are experienced at flying. Maybe they should try to recruit some of them for these wages.
I don't think I could fly for the military due to my uncorrected vision being too bad, but to fly civilian it would be fine
@@RandomName841 Well, I would look into that before I would spend the first dollar, because most airlines require at least a second class medical... and poor vision that is not corrected would probably not meet that standard. Now...if you're gonna buzz around on a Saturday afternoon in a Cessna 172, you can do that without such a stringent vision requirement.
@@arthouston7361 I have 20/20 corrected vision, but the air force has requirements for your vision uncorrected even if you have glasses
My timing sucked. After 9/11, ACA bankrupted. very few flying jobs, when back to my mechanic job and stayed.
Also the financial barrier to entry on being an airline pilot and having all these training programs being available for applicants but seeming almost impossible to get in deters so many me included.
Took me years because I paid as I went but no debt.
#1 Factor was it cost over $100,000 to get a license plus lots of hustling to get 1,500 hours for ATP certificate. I sure not the one wanted to teach flying and trust my life on a new student.
#2 Get a first officer job with commuter airline for as little as $20,000 a year.
#3 Have to commute on own time.
#4 Away from family for many days and with unknown schedule
This is the best, most concise video I have seen on the overall problem with getting young people into the aviation field.
In 1998 I went to Florida to find a flight school to get my private pilot license. I went to a school that was sponsored by comair, they were affiliated with Delta. Anyway in the presentation it was mentioned that the annual salary of a first officer was $12000 a year, at the time I was making that much in a month, and after all the flight training you were guaranteed an interview with Comair, not a job, just an interview. They also offered a uniform allowance, awesome benefit. Captains made a whopping 36,000 per year.
I retired at 48 and am now considering getting into aviation as a pilot but not because I need the money more because I don’t fish or play golf I.e. I am bored.
My son is 16 and I am encouraging him to get his pilots license but not to fly for a living.
Thanks. Things have gontten better. Go for it. I was 37 when I got my first commyter airline job abd 44 when I got a major airline job.
You certainly are in the minority of people interested in flight training. Most can't even begin to touch flight training because of the cost barrier of entry. In most of the country, it costs a couple years of average income for entry level individuals just to cover training to get a CFI or charter job. That is ignoring normal living expenses like mortgage/rent/food/utilities/gas/vehicle/etc as well as the cost to get to and from training.
40-50k a year is pretty average for people here even 20-30+ years into their career. It doesn't get much higher than that. Even if they don't have a family and can save 10k a year of that, it would take 5-6 years to save enough to cover their flight training. Those of us with a family, with the motivation and responsibilities attached to drive the commitment for a career change, have it harder. Meanwhile the instructors have been getting tired of dealing with young pilot candidates that quit part way through because they get bored or quit after only their PPL. They would much rather deal with the candidates in their 30s with family commitments that will stick it out.
I’m 21 and has 11 flight hours into my PPL and I love going to flight school it’s like the best thing that has happened to me in life
Keep that enthusiasm. 👍👌
PPL and instrument rated pilot working on my commercial license here with 170 hours with the goal of becoming an instructor and then airlines. I have loved aviation for as long as I could remember as a little boy (25 years old right now) and I can't see it changing any time soon. To be completely honest, I can't honestly pinpoint what I love about aviation. I just love it. Even though aviation has sort of lost its luster as it was mentioned in the video, it's glamorous for me. I cannot wait to walk through the airport in my pilots uniform. I don't care what other people think. I'm doing this for me.
Flying is fun but when you have to pay off you're massive student loan and are only making 40-50k a year it won't be so fun. I barley got by on 40k with no loan payment good luck. When you want to start a family but are having trouble finding a serious boyfriend/girlfriend because you have a bad schedule and are never around it won't be so fun. If you had rich parents and didn't have to take out a loan it might still be worth it but most of the country couldn't become a pilot without taking out a huge loan. Getting you're liscense is not the expensive part its than many hours of flying experience you need before you can apply to the good jobs that really racks up the debt.
@@Weathernerd27I'm paying as I go
I'm 26 (the oldest of Gen Z) and I'm currently training as a helicopter pilot. I will tell you the number one issue is that our generation has nothing to live for. We do not want to go out of our comfort zone or take a risk, especially if it requires higher education because it's almost entirely futile. I was very fortunate to be in the position I am now, but 95% of my peers are living paycheck to paycheck with the cost of living increasing every month. And no, these aren't people who are buying starbucks multiple times a day. And more to the point, there is a deep cultural rot within western society. There is no shared values or even hope. We live in a crumbling civilization. And all this adds up to young people not being interested in aviation or any other pursuit for that matter. We'd rather sit by and watch society crumble around us because as a generation we have lost the will to live.
HOPE is very powerful and can get men to do anything...but there's no hope left in the current society. What's there to hope for? What's a young man have to look forward to these days? Family is also a great motivator, but we've all seen what's happened with that and the destruction of the nuclear family.
Have you tried being rich? Makes everything easier 😂 had a bunch of 20 something yr old people in my 121 training say "oh wow you're getting into the game late at 30" ....yeah dude, I had to save $100k, my parents didn't buy my way in 😂 just turned 31. Lol I'm not worried. I am so sick of hearing the generic conversations about bidding, schedule, unions and pay constantly. The Airline culture is pretty vanilla
@@Reper123100ding. Agreed
We gave up more than inhibitions and taboos when western society abandoned Christianity. We gave up our societal core and meaning.
Most people I know are single, everyone is too jaded or busy to have a meaningful relationship. Nobody I know has dreams, I'm a bit older than you but the younger millennials are in the same boat
Unless you can eventually get a job at FX or UP, you will have a marginal career. I discouraged my kids from following me in my career because it isn’t that great of a job, at least flying people. Air Force career, Four airlines, two mergers, two strikes, lost pensions, lost wages, two bankruptcies, back side of clock flying, two physicals a year, six different domiciles, working 33 Christmas holidays in a row, commuting for 22 years, inept management. Should I go on?
All too true
As someone from Gen Z, I think you’re correct about the cultural shift. My generation has seen how companies can take advantage of workers and many of us have a very low bullsh*t threshold. When the going gets tough, the tough get going and by going we mean quitting and finding somewhere with better benefits and quality of life.
There is no longer any loyalty from companies which also has amplified the problem.
Another thing you may consider is the mental health/drug use of the younger generation. Many people my age are addicted to vaping/weed or have anxiety/ADHD/BPD which the FAA isn’t too keen on.
From my point of view, there is way too much external stress before you even fly an aircraft to be worth the money. The FAA could pull your medical at anytime for any little thing or the economy go down and you lose your job overnight. All that and you spent 5-10 years of your life building 1500 hours and going into thousands of dollars of debt.
The juice does not seem to be worth the squeeze.
Don't ever take BS don't ever bow. I have high hopes for your generation
@@mh-ht2fpThat strikes me as more than a little disingenuous. Like telling doctors who retire due to the broken nature of American healthcare "you don't actually like helping patients."
You 100% nailed it on the head. Since the age of five all I ever wanted to do was fly. I didn’t care what it was I just wanted to be in the air. That didn’t happen for me for multiple reasons. I’ve been flying for four years now with a ppl now that I actually have the time and money am working on more rating toward my commercial. I am 49 and getting ready to retire From my from my law enforcement career looking to transition into my life long dream job. Since I’ve been flying it has just blown me away how many people really don’t care about aviation or flying. I would have jumped at any opportunity to go in the air if someone asked if I wanted to go flying. Nobody has any interest in it. I think the younger generation thinks of pilots as bus or ups drivers. We are in trouble unless we promote aviation more.
Thanks
Nope the reason why there is a low interest in becoming a pilot today is not because lack of young people wanna get it but more about the industry. Corona just showed it everyone. Unless you are already in the airline u get treated like shit. If u wanna go start ur training u have two options either do it in a flight school which works together with an airline. Which is very demanding U need to prepare so much for the interview and pay emense amount of money extra just to get a not even granted job guarantee. Other option is to do it in a private school where u pay a lot of money for your license no job guarantee and a big debit. The job is not crises safe as corona has shown. A lot of Lufthansa student pilots got kicked out because Lufthansa didn’t need them atm. Now every thing looks better but the main issue is still that to get there u need a lot of money, time and a lot of self discipline and learning. Just to have no job guarantee or work for budget airlines.
The cost is prohibitive and the govt refuses to do anything but throw money at BS programs and other countrjes, despite considering aviation a vital national interest. Airlines don't go far enough on recruiting and training, organizations can't keep up with scholarships and grants (or lock 95% of them behind diversity requirements aimed at less than 5% of interested candidates), and there are no affordable or even legitimate loan options for flight training.
They refuse to acknowledge the fact that it isn't just about the majors. Majors are short on crew, yes, but they already stole from regionals, who already stole from charter ops and CFIs. Now there has been a shortage of instructors and training candidates can't afford training. All with majors facing varying degrees of mandatory retirement up to 35% in the next 8 years. It's ok though, they want to give the majors more money for pilot hiring and build more hangars at GA airports. That will fix the shortages in the training pipeline.
Not everyone has your passion. I flew military and probably the majority of military pilots end up doing something else when they leave. My entire 20 year career was a fight to stay in the cockpit. I was on flight status for eighteen years or so after getting my wings but only eleven years in flying squadrons. Pretty typical for military guys. I started buying and flying my own planes to supplement my military flying. Now, I've been out of the USMC nearly twenty years and am on my twelfth airplane. I was bitten hard at a very early age and the feeling has never left me. Where there is a will, there is a way. What many young people pay for fancy cars would buy an entry level airplane. That's one way to build hours.
@@scottw5315 It is true that one could buy a reasonable plane to build hours in for the price of a fairly well kitted vehicle, most of the available planes are not what gets touted as good trainers. They get overlooked and those with the money for fancy cars aren't going to compromise and get a plane that to them will look run down and simple. 172s are selling sight unseen in some cases for more than 75-80k without good avionics. 182s with decent avionics are well upwards of 200k. Even 150s and 152s are selling upwards of 30-40 with relative ease. Older niche models that used to be in the 10-15 range for a functional plane that might need a little work, are also selling for 30+ minimum. This increase is just in the last 2 years. It just isn't in the budget for the people we NEED in the pipeline instead of the ones with a silver spoon hanging out of their mouth that more often than not get bored pretty quickly.
They need to fill the gap between 250 and 1500 hours. There are few reliable, profitable ways to make a living if you’re in that gap. Granted instructing pays WAY more than when I quit instructing back in 2011, but I feel it’s still inconsistent due to student loads and weather (at least up here in the upper Midwest). You’re supposed to instruct, fly jumpers or tow banners so you can have inadequate multi time and chase more hours in random ways to fill the gap. That was my future in 2010 when I walked away. Maybe it’s different now?
Naw, the only difference is it costs more. The pay and opportunity side is about the same.
Brilliant mate! Exactly what I think today after almost 3 decades flying in the business. I still make model aircraft today and I still retain the glamor of flying because there’s nothing like seeing a mountain range lit from behind as you climb atop it in the rising sun. People who are watching their computers on the onboard wifi miss it entirely as well as life altogether. As a pilot I got a preview of paradise on this side of life that is worth all the sacrifice, including the sleep depravation, the holiday seasons spent far away from home and the loss of friends in the 5/2 week_weekend routine. My wife is a flight attendant because she only can understand how I feel after a punishing roster and conversely. I always have a meal on he table when she comes home and let her sleep as much as she needs to get back in the world and conversely.It’s not for everyone … As well as having your own business, working with your hands … I have much admiration for craftsmen and people who make their life their passion. Guess what : They’re the happiest people around. That too is my own two cents.
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Well said...I flew military. Skipped the airlines but am still flying privately. Forty years in the cockpit has been a wonderful life.
I had the same experience in the late 80's early 90's. Decided to leave and never come back. Spent my life and almost retired now in IT, that worked out well for me. I flew the Beech 99's like you did and received hardly any pay.
Very spot on. I was in the industry 40 years and it’s constantly evolving
In 1997, I was introduced to Mesa Airlines and their program that would allows a pilot with an associates degree to fly. I was so excited, and went through the motions to finally figure out, just as you stated, that I would spend tens of thousands of dollars to get a job that paid less than minimum wage. It is no wonder that so few Gen-Xers were able to be pilots. There was just not a seat at the table.
Loved this video, you hit some really good points. I’m 26 on the 767 at a major and wouldn’t trade it for what I signed myself up for in my younger years. I went back to flying King Air medevac at 22 and it led me down some interesting avenues. I look forward to hearing more from ya.
Signed, a TransStater that got laid off during COVID-19.
Great video Max. It is too bad that aviation has succumbed to the ravages of time. As you said it is a bus service. even the passengers have changed. Passengers no longer have the spirit of air travel in them, It is now just a hop on the bus and get me there. Passengers have also lost a lot of respect for the air crews; they are just general staff who's only job is to "accommodate" you. To bad as a great career can be made as part of a flight crew. As you mentioned the trades are also suffering. When I was in high school one knew whether they were not going to be able to go the academic route and went to the trade schools. A good career is also available in the trades. Today everyone wants to be an English major or a video games player. They want everything to be easy to obtain or handed out to them. As for the one pilot cockpit for large commercial flights, no way would I endorse that. Cheers Max and keep on flying when you are not modelling, and keep on modelling when you are not flying. And in between, spoil Ms. Max and give Honey lots of belly rubs.
I saw the video game tsunami coming in the early 90s. Thankfully, I was never interested. The time wasted playing games is unreal. Lots of lives ruined because so many young people waste their productive learning years playing video games.. American society has fallen far in terms of "class." Wearing pajamas on airplanes is disgusting to me. Too many parents in my opinion want to be their child's friend instead of teacher, mentor and leader. Fat, lazy and stupid seems to be the new American.
Part of the reason why air travelers are not as enthusiastic is airlines making buying a ticket more complicated than it needs to be, traffic jams, lack of affordable nearby parking, long lines, security, and overpriced bad airport food wears a traveler down. My grandparents stopped flying even though they have the time and money to travel and I get it they just don't have the energy to go through all this $*(#&($# anymore and it kind of sad. People would be alot more enthusiastic if we made getting through the airport faster and easier. I'm not saying get rid of security alltogether but do we really need so many rules? I'd be okay with my chances of dying in an airplane increasing from 1 in a million to 1 in 100,000 if I could get through the airport in 1 hour.
I agree with you 1000% with 16500 jet hours I have been 5 airlines due to 9/11 ,airline bankruptcies, 2008 GFC , pandemic , so I now the ups and downs , this job is a hobby I love .
I was raised on a horse ranch in the 60's. I started driving off road in a 2ton truck at 13. Got my DL at 16. I worked on and rode motorcycles in my teens. I spent a day watching airline crashes. I was amazed how many pilots didn't even know basics so when auto pilots or hydraulics fail they had no idea how to save the plane from crashing. One pilot didn't know how to check what direction he was flying in clear daylight and ran out of fuel over the Amazon!
I’m a boomer with over 37 years in the cockpit, retired 7 years ago at age 65. Loved my career and would do it all again if I was 40 years younger but I’m happy to be retired.
Awesome video. All your points are spot on. I'm just about 5 months into my training. Just got my ppl and ifr rating and I feel a ton of uncertaintly about the future. I've absolutlely loved my experience so far but man, it's rough knowing you're one health event away from never flying again. Not to mention the debt most people have to go into getting their ratings and the slog up to 1500 hours. It's daunting. High highs and low lows is kinda the way I see it. Not to mention the safety aspects of being a brand new pilot in a GA aircraft. I'd imagine that scares a lot of people away. I had no idea how many accidents occurred in GA until getting into this.
Thanks
Most GA fatalities are avoidable. VFR pilot flying into IMC...skipping annuals and/or airframe specific maintenance requirements...not doing a pre-flight and/or run ups...simple stuff.
@@Reper123100sir, most fatalities in GA are mid air collisions on VFR days in the flippin pattern. Think about it for a second.
All very valid points. I started my career in 1980 in night mail and freight flying, and end it next month at AA. The pilots I see coming out of the military still remind me of the adventurous sort but still very different from the Korean era vets I flew with as a newbie.
The new kids coming out of the civilian world are very much a different sort. I walk away from the job shaking my head and I wish them the best.
It's basically a rich man's industry. Here in the UK, there are 0 opportunities for student loans to pay for school. I went the modular route and I spent the best part of £70k so far just getting my hours, single/multi/night/irr (UK specific). I still need to pay for my CPL then get my instructor rating and work for pennies. It's not something you can get in to unless you have a significant amount of money on the side, one to pay for the costs and two to survive while you train.
It is a hardship. We had 4 of us in one apartment.
There is not a pilot shortage. I’m 900 hours CAMEL and I can’t get anyone to even call me back. There are a lot of non ATP rated pilots ready to go but If you don’t have 1500 it’s either instructing at $20/ flight hour or nothing.
You are at the toughest point in your career. It hurts but ya gotta keep flying.
Bridging the gap between training and ATP is struggle. Hang in there, I just got instrument current again after a year of working a stable job on the ground. It's too bad that the course isn't always direct to, huh?
American airlines has a thousand unfilled mechanic openings according to my brother who's an aa mechanic.
I wanted to be a pilot since i was a child, but the cost of training and the volatility of the industry turned me away.
I attempted to apply for airline cadet programmes and military but competition was far to stiff.
Even trying to get a private license is tough due to the cost of training and distance to the closest airport.
I know someone who got hired as a pilot last year with one of the big 3. I saw him for the first time a couple months ago and he gained a significant amount weight. I'm sure its hard for some people to stay slim with crazy schedules and airport food.
True
I think it's more stress related than food related. Most fast food places, or in this case airport food options, have some kind of "Chicken Salad" or variation of that. Skip the soda and fries...get a turkey sandwhich with a water instead.
8 years working on computers in an office since graduating college and I'm about to blow my brains out. Thankfully that has provided the financial steadiness to commit to what has always been my passion. Hopefully looking at getting my instrument rating and commercial by end of next year. I honestly don't know how people cope with white collar jobs in this country. People like to complain about being pilots but honestly, try being always on-call, dealing with coworkers who don't mind sitting in front of the computer at 10pm pinging you about sh*t that doesn't really matter in the name of shareholder value, not being able to disconnect from work, getting bugged on weekends or when you're out sick. It's brutal. Couple that with the recent push to embrace AI and further dissociate from the real world. And people wonder why mental health issues are at a record high and everyone is medicated just to cope with reality. We need fewer computer jobs.
25 plus years ago as a young pilot the older guys would say they have had enough and ready to go. I didn't understand it, this is our dream. Now I'm the old guy with a few years to go and I completely understand them now.
maybe its shifting interest and its definitely part of the problem, but working at a university flight school, just this semester we had over 200 applicants for our pilot program. 370 students in our roster currently. Training has been ramping up these past few years, I started flight training in 2021, just as the pandemic came to a slow and I was able to get a spot. However I think the overarching issue is training cost. It is prohibitively expensive to do flight training these days. Here I am finishing up my commercial training and all in Ive already spent over 40k 15 for private 15 for instrument and so far 10 for my commercial training, and with hour costs and requirements im probably going to spend another 10 before i'm done. Loans are impossible to get unless its through a university program and even then you have to tack on an added cost for the degree. Once its all said and done, I'll be in debt for over 100k, and If i didnt have my scholarships, it'd be 150k. Im lucky my interest rate is only 4% and doesnt start accruing till after graduation. But now people arent as lucky. Interest rates start at 7% now. 100k of debt at 7% you'll be making payments for 10 years minimum and that's 10 years you cant buy a house. Thats if you get a good job. Right out of the gate i'll have to be a CFI, and thats great and all. But ill be grinding for at least 2 years part time at best making $25 a flight hour at best. You really have to want to do this job and be willing to take on lots of debt and pay your dues, and right now the market is at its peak. Hiring at the regionals is slowing and has stopped in most places. UPS is already talking about furloughs. The days of hitting ATP mins and getting hired are over. I'm seeing it in real time. Theres a million problems I see contributing to it daily that I could talk about, but the biggest one is cost of training, and CFI pay. Talk to any young CFI at the flight schools or universities, their goal is to get out as fast as possible. not to teach.
The forecast is for a shortage but we never know what tomorrow's need will really be. Yes, the mom & pop scholls have dwindled and the 'pilot factories' are super expensive.
I fully agree, I was at a mom & pop school and tried to move on to a large university for my training. What I saw was sad and truthfully made me wonder if this is the right career for me. I saw lots of CFI/II’s just in it for the hours and it felt like I was paying extra for less attention/detail to instruction? Aviation is my original passion but with this and the other topics mentioned in the video it’s getting harder to see that this will pay off in the long run. I’m continuing training but plan on taking classes within other fields/subjects.
If you managed to make loans at a college work, I am surprised. 4 different colleges with pilot programs flat out told me flight fees are "non-qualifying" fees and that I can't use student loans for them. Rental, fuel, dual, DPE, checkrides, FAA exams were all explicitly listed as being ineligible. Only tuition, class instruction (not ground..... which seems weird.... not dual instruction), books/supplies, and room and board would qualify. They advertised 2 year programs averaging 48k, of which only 7-8k they said I could use student loans for. The state even has a "last dollar" grant available that covers the cost if they choose to apply it to their program, and only one in the state has done that. Of course they would be the one 3 hours or so away. All other flight training loans I have seen advertised end up being double digit interest with short terms of 6-10 years. Given for most, training and hour building takes 5+ years, that is prohibitive to say the least.
Maybe the difference is 2 year certificate vs 4 year degree programs, but 99% of pilots don't need a degree and I already have a bachelors degree. Other certificate programs, technical programs, and 2 year degrees qualify.
@@eleflux6609 I can see where you're coming from, it almost seems like these universities are money hungry? thankfully I didn't take out loans for the semester I spent at the large school (I noticed too many problems and left quickly). I went to a 2 year program and my goal was to get the R-ATP through the 4 year uni. Once in the university, I did hear of problems such as students struggling to keep enough in their accounts before they were locked out due to being close to the $1,000 minimum balance ($1000 minimum is crazy high in my opinion). In retrospect, I think it would have been better to just stay at the 2 year and avoid the headaches at the university. I'm back at my old flight school and continuing, the cool thing is that they offer other certificates (A&P) and degrees in other fields to explore. Would definitely recommend Part 61, especially if you have a degree already and want to go at your own pace.
Enjoyed the video and I like your takes on the issues. As a 30yr old plumber who's first choice was to be a pilot I'm really considering going for it now. Got my ppl in 2010
go for it
The plumbing m&a is where the $$$$ are atm
no shortage here in western Europe, ive been qualified for over 10yrs but still have low hours and no opportunities, im unempluyed. i wish the US would open up to us more
Europe is even harder I am told. Best wishes.
FANTASTIC VIDEO....from a commercial pilot!!!
Could be applied to so many trades including military / agriculture /construction / teaching …. The internet has given people so much more choice and opened up opportunities to earn online.
yes it has
i will get a job in aviation somehow, one day. doing my third gliding lesson tomorrow
keep with it, we need you.
Flying sailplanes looks fantastic. I hope those memories stay with you. Best of luck.
I'm 34, saved up about 80K going to quit my IT job in a year and sign up for ATP, I'm currently studying for my PPL, IFR and Commercial ratings.
I'm scared shitless to be honest, but it's always been my dream to be a pilot and fly a plane for a living...
Getting my hours is going to be painful :( have to be a CFI no other way around it... survive on half of what I make right now in IT for a while...
Hi I'm 34 IT engineer just finished up my PPL. Stay focused friend! Not sure what the future will hold for us but I know that if we don't try then we will regret it
Welcome aboard homie. I’m a programmer and make good money, about to get my PPL.
I will be taking a HUGE pay cut once I get to the right seat at a regional.
If you think it is hard in the US, you’re lucky you’re not in Central America like me. It’s a bleak future down here.
There are very few people coming out of school who really have mechanical knowledge or interest. Im 17 and in training for aircraft maintenance, I have seen that almost nobody wants to learn to fix anything anymore. It seems theres a diminishing amount of people with real dreams for the future. People just aren’t interested in knowing how to work on cars, or anything else for that matter.
Airlines are the new greyhound
Great video! To share my perspective, I live in Brazil, getting my commercial pilot license. Here, the process is simpler to get to the airline's minimum required, which is 200 to fly a Caravan and 500 to start in an ATR 72. The problem here is also how to get these 200 hours because we need to be lucky or have lots of contacts to get an aviation "godfather" who will give us the opportunity. Also, the instruction aviation is having a hard time, since many schools here are so old (more than 90 years like São Paulo Airclub) that they are no-profit organizations. We used to have 2 hangars and more than 20 airplanes. Most of them piper Cherokees, arrows, and Senecas, and now we have only seven. Our only Seneca for the multi-engine rating has been stuck in an overhaul for more than 2 years now.
Great video! The transformation of the airline pilot culture could also be a sign that the pure passion for the aviation is becoming a rare motivation of new pilots entering the industry.
Video games.
I worked at a sawmill where some of the millwrights were former A&Ps. Why did they leave aviation? Money! They would rather sweat while covered in grease and sawdust for $30 an hour than work down the road at Sikorsky for 19 an hour.
My dream is to be a pilot. I’m an aviation nut. Your channel really hits home. Keep it Up big brother
Very informative! Just my .02, but I think of the issues back in the early 2000's with the Regionals; prospective Pilots getting into the Industry as a Career, then get shunted into a Regional job that barely pays enough to survive, let alone the pitfalls of working in a system where the Pilots are just commodities serving the Suits, Skirts and Power Pantsuits in the Conference Room. Remember "Crash Pads"? Are those still even a thing?
Nailed it!
Did you ever think when we were in initial at Mesa that things would get like this?
I really have interest in becoming a commercial pilot but I have a lot of "issues"
The main thing is I have no money, No parents/family to help with a loan, My credit score sucks, and I'm barley making ends meet as is. I really do not want to join the military as a alterative to this due to personal beliefs. The other thing is my memory is not the best I'm only 23, But I have a very hard time remembering basic things and names. I'm not sure I would fit well into a cockpit. I have had serious depression in my life and I when I was younger I attempted to take my own life which resulted in me getting a 302 on my record "involuntary commitment for psychiatric placement at an inpatient psychiatric unit" which has labeled me "danger to self or others" I have been slowly bringing myself back up and I'm a lot better now, but with that on my recorded I'm not sure its even possible for me to get into a cockpit. I have talked with lawyers before because I wanted to purchase a gun about a year ago and there is the chance I can get it removed from my record (for some serious money of course)
I would really appreciate any insight from any pilots out there, Is it worth pursing? Do I even have a chance at becoming a pilot with that 302 tainting my history? How would you start the process of becoming a pilot in todays world?
ALl very real concerns and I had my own financial challenges. It i snot fun but if you make it you will never feel guilty about taking your paycheck.
I feel for you man, but honestly, I think it's very unlikely you would be issued a medical certificate. I wouldn't say it's for sure impossible, but the suicide attempt and involuntary commitment would be a big problem with the FAA. You could always find an Aviation Medical Examiner and make an appointment for a medical exam for an FAA medical exam and see what they say. They typically charge $150-$250 for an exam and you could get firm answer on if it's approvable under certain circumstances (Many years since the issue, taking an FAA approved medication that keeps you stable, etc) Google Aviation MEdical examiners in your area and go from there.
Youth weren't interested in cars because the age you grew up in made it easy to buy your first car at 16 and fill up your tank without bankrupting yourself for another week. I'm surprised there are any pilots at all with how much money it costs to do it on your own
I was flight instructing in the early 1970's and ended up being a first officer in a 1900. A friend said aviation was 95% nonsense. I totally agree. The airlines have been saying they are short on pilots all this time but there were furloughs, and very hard to get hired. I quit around 1975 because there was no money in it. That was very hard to take after all that work and expense.
If I had it to do again, I would get the single engine Commercial and instrument rating and stop there.
I didn't like the airlines anyhow. I wanted to fly fighters but it wasn't to be, even with the Viet Nam war at full pitch. (Glad I missed it). Lack of sleep is the worst of it.
Having parts falling off Boeing aircraft now days doesn't help.
Once again, great video, Max!
There needs to be a conversation about relaxing the 1500 hr ATP requirement for right-seat entry to the regionals. That right seat used to be the place where you gained the hours and experience to get your ATP, move to the left seat and then onto the majors. 1 accident does not = the norm.
I worked my own way thru commercial MEI, and with about 400 hrs, tried 3x to gain my CFI: 9/11 stopped me, then 2 separate mom&pops took my block time prepaid and ran off with the money/closed down, and then the local university says they only want to train me from 0 hours or else hire me if I already have my CFII. I love flying but can no longer afford nor justify to do it just for fun, especially as I get older and the class 1 becomes more of a threat than a given, as others have said-it’s a juice/ squeeze equation now.
I am 25 years old and I work as a mechanic, but I have always wanted to be a pilot. I don’t know if I want/can switch careers at this point, but I think that in depth mechanical knowledge would help pilots out greatly. However, I am concerned that AI might take over many pilot jobs and other professions in the future, while mechanics and other service jobs might be more secure.
Lol not in our lifetime.
I've had discussions with people about this. Would you fly across the Atlantic ocean on a plane captained by AI? I would not.
Don’t let fear of Ai stop you. Pilots need to understand the aircraft systems.
The VA will pay for flight training after PPL. A tour in the military is a good way to get a bundle in financing for any degree and I said flight training too.
Cars were easier to fix and didn't have computers years ago. Muscle cars were the rage, and most guys learned to fix them. Now, cars are computerized and harder to diagnose, so less DIYers out there.
I respect that there are people who make a living having more expertise in something than I do. Paying them for that service helps more people than my trying to be self-sufficient in all things. On a related note, I see my coworkers who are car guys almost constantly fixing something on their project cars while mine has mercifully run smoothly. They enjoy it, but I wouldn't. I may do some maintenance on my motorcycle, but my car is only a means of getting from point A to B as stated in the video.
@@MalfosRanger I agree. I just traded in an old car for brand new because, even though I'm mechanically inclined, I just don't have the time anymore.
Primary issue is cost as a barrier of entry. When you are staring down 60-70k+ (or maybe even 80k+ now with hourly increasesthe last year) before you can even get an entry level job, with student loans not an option (ineligible flight fees... only tuition, books, and room and board counting which is a fraction of the cost), and flight training loans being double digit with short terms..... it just doesn't make sense.
As to youth not interested, I wish I had access to EAA and AOPA demographics for scholarship applications. EAA email last year said 1700 applicants if I remember right, and this year said over 4000. The interest is there overall, but people can't afford it. AOPA doesn't say how many that I am aware of. I had to have two surgeries last year or I would have started and wife had partial paralysis this year giving us no income the last 7 months. Had $17k saved for flight training and that plus much more is long since gone. My 95% on knowledge test for private expires next April, so then I have to pay for that again too. Increasingly turning into an impossible career change.
However, a college flight instructor a few hours from here did state the washout rate for young pilots is insane right now. They just decide they don't want to do it after they get their scholarships and their private pilot. He said he would take candidates with a family and prior careers in their 30s any day. In his words, "At least you all have done enough to know what you definitely don't want to do anymore, even if you don't know for sure where you want to end up. You will stick to training and complete a change to a career in aviation."
I don't see why the government is ignoring the problem. Aviation is considered a national security interest and vital to our economy and way of life. Yet we throw money at BS degrees and aviation in other countries, while watching our industry crumble under it's own weight and pressures of the unions. Promises to revitalize GA in the re-authorization and all we get are promises to build more hangars at GA airports and talks of increasing hiring at majors. As if the vast majority of all of aviation doesn't start with GA flight training. Those hangars will do a lot of good housing the planes no one can afford to fly or even train to fly. On top of that, some majors facing up to 35% mandatory retirement in the next 8 years when training and hour building for most pilots takes 5+ years. At least a temporary grant or scholarship program from the government would be much more effective at rectifying the issue, with a requirement for successful career placement as a pilot or it functions as a loan. That would prevent the funds being used up by everyone that just wants a PPL, at least in the long term.
In addition, any measure NEEDS to be merit based. Diversity in scholarship and grant programs is locking down funds that could be used for a lot of pilots to be trained. It could be on the extreme side, but the appearance is that 95% of funds are earmarked for 5% or less of interested candidates lately in the name of artificial diversity. I understand marketting to attract diversity, but don't mandate it or make it a requirement of the funds. There are just as many, and likely more, financially deserving and interested white male candidates that are turned down because they don't fit the minority requirements for a particular program. Every program should be based off who is most likely to succeed AND make a career out of aviation.
Probably the most honest and rational opinion i have heard so far. Solid video!
I always joke that my dad’s cabin is a 70’s social media platform. He talked about having no problem getting friends to come over to build and then when done with the tools they would drink around the bbq at dinner time.
Well, no...The corporation's fudiciary duty is also to their employees and their customers. But that's gotten trampled on by overpaid CEOs. But the tide is now turning for American workers.
Except for for a few biggies like Embry-Riddle or FIT (which are technically colleges) there are not that many overpaid CEOs in aviation but I get your overall point. You are corrrect about the current tide as we working airline pilots have rarely had it so good. That, perhaps more than any other metric, proves the current shortage. How long the happy time will last is yet to be seen. It is probably a reason for the sudden push to the single pilots cockpit (which the unions are not going to allow anytime soon). I was at the regionals when this began and we had tolower our requirements by half. I did hiring at the major I work at now and we had to make some adjustments to the requirements as well. The training dept is going full bore all the time and we are still hiring.
Any business ultimately only has a duty to their stakeholders. However, that obviously involves taking care of their employees and customers to an extent. It just isn't the primary concern. Corporate social responsibility is still a relatively new concept, and certainly not a binding one.
@@eleflux6609 Actually it's an old school concept, but unfortuntely the so-called masters of the Universe have somehow extricated this from B-Schools. This is why we are having more and more strikes. After the gilded age came labor unrest and now we're repeating that piece of history.
This has to be the most boomer theory ever. Plenty of people would love to build a career flying. Who TF can afford to break into the industry with 80k+ in debt all to get a low salary long hours pilot gig?
That help me up for years as well.
There is definitely a shortage
I’m in Australia and know 5 people gone to the USA to work ? We struggle here but the real struggle is getting experienced workers
I always hear pilots wanting to say commercial airlines treat them poorly but they never say it out loud clearly.
I tried to get my private pilot license bc I wanted a career change 10 years ago, I spent 15k and ran out of money and couldn’t find a way to raise 80k for all the training. So I became an electrician (which I love btw) 🤷🏻♂️…but GL with your shortage bros!
The biggest thing is cost. I always wanted to fly but there's no way I have the money for that. I spend 90% of my time trying to keep food on the table
yup
You said it all.
honestly the biggest hurtle that the aviation industry has for getting people as pilots is financing the flight training and often times moving to a location where flight training is even practical. your typical flight hour in a 2020 or newer aircraft will run about 230-400 for a single engine then about another 80 for instruction so all in a student is looking at paying around 300-500 per instruction hr in most modern places. if they have planes from the 70s (wich most places rely almost exclusively on ) you're looking at an all in cost of about 240 per flight instruction hour. do that over 80 or so hrs for a ppl that can be from 50k to 19k for a ppl. in the end to get to meii a potential pilot can expect to pay about 100k at an accelerated school (most people end up going over and getting charged 20-30% over) and around 200k for a 4 year program not incuding housing.
That sounds wrong if you're talking about the US. I'm in a major city and the rate is about $225 wet for an Archer with G1000 and $62 for instruction. That's the priciest place in the area. A mom and pop shop will be more like $180-$200 and $50-55 per hour. Also, a PPL does not take 80 hours for most people. 40 is the requirement (and not all of it will involve the instructor as only 20 hours are required for instruction). Some places will require you do 80 hours but that's just a money grab scheme by shady schools. Most people can do it below 60 hours. I would say expect to pay $15k on the low end and about $30k on the very high end. It absolutely should never be $50k unless you're being taken advantage of or you're taking a very long time between lessons and lose some of the muscle memory before your check ride.
@@adamsrosales6519 I’m in San Diego. A getting a faa inspector for a check ride is a year wait over here so everyone uses dpe. The majority of dpe over here are gate keepers so it will never be just minimums to pass a checkride, the majority need 80 hrs if they work and do it twice a week instead of everyday it will be more. The bottom end is 140 for a steem gauge 1960-1970 steem gauge 172 and the top end is several hundreds to learn in a new cirrus or diamond, instruction rate at a 141 school starts at 70 and goes up from there, all in instruction fees plus rental will take 225 per flight hr and that’s not including gas if they are non wet rate or post ground training. 15k is low but duable I and my friend in the navy paid just shy of 20k for our ppl. It would be double that for someone getting a ppl in a cirrus, the typical rental cost is around 400-500 over here for one and then instruction is about 150 so all in every hr is about 500-600, if a student does cirrus and uses 60 hrs that’s just shy of 40k at 80 hrs that’s 48k. And yes I do know people who’ve gotten their ppl with cirrus and there are about 3 or four schools over here with cirrus fleets so there’s demand for it 🤷♂️
Thanks for the analysis and musings. I am 58 and still have a dream to get my private pilot license as I am of your generation, I believe. You are spot on. we played outside and did things with our hands, fixed stuff, played baseball, road bicycles. kids today only worship their cell phones.
I've been flying almost my whole life. If anybody asks what I think about becoming a career pilot and are not sure, I can usually talk them into some other career! Airlines are definitely not worth the trouble, so many other jobs are easier to get into for a fraction of the cost. And guess what, the FAA loves to violate pilots!
It can be a minefiled but it is all about your personal goals.
If you look at it as just a career to make money, then yes, absolutely not worth it. If you have a love for it then you will probably find that you will regret not going after it eventually. Life is not about amassing accomplishments or making money. It's about being happy and fulfilled with your decisions by the time you die. No career that pays well and has a lot of competition is a walk in the park. I work in technology making almost as much as a captain at a major, but I'm constantly stressed, can't unplug from work, and work up to 60-70 hours a week most weeks. At least when you're done flying and go home, you're not expected to hop on a plane again to do one last minute route during your off time. The ability to not take work home with your is a major advantage that pilots take for granted.
I really would like to do a career change from software development to pilot, but I've already paid my student loans off it was 65k+ cheaper than getting pilot training from 0 hrs. Even my wife is cool with the change, but that price tag is a major block for me. The plan is to budget for a ppl, instrument s, maybe a cfi, and some additional safety training so I can be as safe as possible in the GA community. That's probably as far as I'll go.
I suspect that Kovidstan didn't help but I think you make some really good points.
Great video. One question that I always have is will I ( a student pilot currently getting my ratings) be able to enjoy a full career in aviation? There are already autonomous startups looking to get certified by the FAA as well as airlines pushing for single pilot operations.
Yes. It will be decades before you need to worry about that.
I can see cargo going auto in our lifetime, but I don’t think passenger planes will go full automation any time soon. People are very skeptical of AI, especially in emergencies
I got my ratings about the same time as you....on could get their private ticket for under thousand bucks! And we had many who would fly for free including ex military who already had a paycheck! I went the CFI/ 135 route. And employers took advantage of this ; with sub standard aircraft maintenance! My income capped at 50 k.( flt instructors pay was 5 bucks/hr when I started)...one could rent a 172 for ten bucks/ hr.
You always had to have ability to have another type of work to survive.
And thats the secret to surviving! Kids nowadays are screwed cos they still live at home with parents no job skills; I see it now,no motivation to do anything!!!. I left aviation to raise my own kids...
100k just to lose everything over a medical issue, through no fault of your own. Is it any surprise aspiring pilots are looking at that and saying NO ?
It's all supply and demand. The military no longer "freely" trains as many pilots as they once did and civilian flight training keeps on getting more expensive. Deregulation allowed more of the public to fly and the glamour of air travel began to wither away as flying became routine for average income earners. Most passengers dont see the pilots that flew the flights that they were on let alone have a conversation with them. It's a mass transportation business.
I am an aerospace engineering student because I figured it cost too much to get into the piloting scene and I’d rather not be a commercial pilot anyway. (I have school benefits that does not cover ppl)
I’m hoping one day to be a pilot as some sort of career like as an instructor.
The regionals were the worst thing to happen to aviation. Essentially, the Majors got to farm out a portion of their route structure and pay next to nothing. Scope clauses at the Majors prohibited it for a while but through lobbying and leverage they water down the scope clauses and eventually corporate America wins in the end and and we see this expansion of low paying jobs where people are over worked, they burn out and leave the industry and tell their stories. Is it any wonder that young people have said “No Thanks”?
they were no big deal until deregulation and the development of the regional jet.
I have asked people when they are thinking about learning to fly "have you ever mowed the lawn?" "Sailed a boat?" "Learned to snow or water ski?" "Mountain bike?" It's interesting how much more ahead of the game these seemingly mundane activities translate. And if people have never done these types of things outside aviation, they will be paying a flight instructor top dollar to learn things that could have been learned in the back yard or out on a lake fishing.
If you do all those things, AND you're a MUSICIAN, you are well ahead of the pack already.
I was hired by Simmons in 98 to fly the ATR. I think I was making $17/hr. My son now makes $20/hr at Wal Mart. 😂
$17/hr in 1998 is about $33/hr in 2023. Silver Airways is the only company in the US flying ATRs today and their starting pay is $52/hr. If you were to adjust that pay to 1998, the pay would be $27/hr. Anyway the point is that your $17/hr is nowhere near comparable to the Wal Mart employee today. You made more and the cost of living was far cheaper. You could realistically save for a mortgage off that ATR job.
@@daytonasixty-eight1354 I realize that thanks. It’s just another way of saying “I’m old” 😭
@@daytonasixty-eight1354 Mountain Air Cargo, as well as a couple of others still fly the ATR 42/72.
there is also a dentist shortage. for instance i only work part time since covid. i realise there wont ever be houses, so full time work is a no no.
Nicely Done and Spot On!
I’ve kinda seen both ends of the spectrum. I started training in 2006 at a big part 141 flight school with a 6 figure loan and made around 23k my first year at the regionals. That’s where the turn off of the career was for most people. For what ever reason everyone was laser focused on “1st year pay” “this is what pilots get paid”. Which was very much not true. No one on the outside looking in could tell you what second year pay was, what captain pay was, what guys were making at the majors. Everyone was hyper focused on year 1 regional Fo pay and it turned them away from the career. I considered probationary pay like an internship, I was lucky to be getting paid. Year 2 takes a substantial 30% increase. My timing initially wasn’t great, had to instruct until 2,000hrs because the economic downturn (prior to the 1500hr rule). Started off rocky at my first regional, they furloughed up to the class hired behind me, company threatened to shut down if we didn’t take concessions to match our peers. I was the most junior guy on my aircraft in the company for 1.5 years, stuck on reserve for 3 years and was an FO for 6 years. After I upgraded to CA thing started to change slowly. Moved on to a legacy only a few years later. Hired February 2020. Covid brought everything to a screeching halt, hiring stopped 2 classes behind us. I was furloughed by October, was out for only 8 months not really sure if I was going to be back in weeks or decades. Now because of the hiring back log from Covid and the early retirement packages, working for a company with the highest retirement rate, for the first time in my career my seniority is sky rocketing ahead of the hiring wave. We are now hiring about triple the normal rate and double what current attrition is. At 4 years in I can hold captain at my legacy if I so choose, now with a new contract that once daunting looking 6 figure student loan, I’m making enough to pay it off every 4 months. Assuming retirement age stays at 65 I still have 30 years left in my career. Sure there are lots a variables and unknowns, single pilot will almost cut the seniority list in half, another big industry down turn, medical issues or something unforeseen. But for now I’m very happy with where I’m at in my career, my quality of life, and compensation and work rules. My only advice is to make sure you are playing the long game, not making moves for the now but making them to set yourself up for the future. Thinking near sighted detoured many from getting into a career that pays “23,000 a year”. And vice versa, today thinking about the 150,000 signing bonus, regional pilots making 200,000+ and short 2 year path to a major without looking at the back half of your career knowing the majors will have hired half their seniority list in the next year or 2, most of those guys in their 30s retiring no time soon, that your seniority will come to a screeching halt at 50% relative seniority for the last 15 years and in the career as a whole potentially throwing away millions during the back half of the career.
But to be completely honest I think what is keeping people out today has changed from what kept people out a decade ago (the money). The younger generation just isn’t willing to put in the effort and hard work
you could pay me like a public school teacher and I would still fly that airplane
I wanna get an A&P but its 2 years. Just don't know if i can do that with my job.
I would not want to be a pilot, the weird hours, working on holidays, missing my kids soccer game and trying to stay married, let alone the cost of getting all your ratings.
In excellent health was forced out because I turned the magical age of 65. I can’t tell you how many fat, out of shape 30 year old first officers I’ve flown with that are on several medications and get out of breath walking to the gate.
Spot-on analysis!
Dude you nailed it! I to am a 1970’s era pilot! However I earned a degree in Electrical Engineering while flying! And I was lucky I was employed as an engineer and the company provided me an airplane for transportation as a bio med engineer.
As time went on I was lucky to get a job as a Falcon 20 and Lear Jet driver as an FO. Later on I upgraded to PIC.
On both airplanes.
Would I suggest aviation as a career! Probably Not!
I am a low time with 14000, hours flying! Because I was in the school house training pilots
I think it is due to the medicals, some thing like ADHD and depression technically aren’t disqualifying but the laws around them are so convoluted and restrictive that if you have it unless you want to put in a lot of effort and have an extremely minor case there’s a chance you’ll get a cert and adhd alone eliminates about 40% of Americans ridiculous.
That sounds about right
They’d rather have pilots drink their mental health issues away and keep their mouths shut about it than actually treating them and having an actual full functioning/happy worker. It’s a fucking joke, and all of us in the business are part of the circus.
Look, I love flying, and have found nothing I’m better at in my life than flying, but the industry is a joke.
It is just a question of barrier to entry. I got out of high school in 1998, and it seamed almost impossible to become a pilot, unless you were athletic enough and had perfect vision and could get into the military. Getting into the military is or was very difficult. I tried to get into the marines to fly after college but no way short of maybe steroids would of I been able to meet the physical requirements. I keep hearing of companies needing people and it seems like Bizarro world to me. Well paying places that would only hire you if you knew someone are now willing to hire anyone who wonders into HR.
20 y/o here wishing money would fall out of the sky so i can get in the cockpit quicker but sadly our economy is falling part piece by piece so ill probably just stick to watching them takeoff from the other side of the airport fence...
The TSA security requirement for pilots is insane. A pilot doesn’t need a gun, bomb, or knife to take down an airplane. They should be able to walk right through with a badge.
I flew for Mesa 4.5 years. Now I fly for Breeze lol.
I'm a 63 year old woman...and I can change a tire...jum a car...rebuild an engine...change my oil...drive my 1968 SS Camaro 4 speed stick shift...drive a semi...drive a tow truck...etc! Kids CAN'T DO ANYTHING! I have a great respect for pilots! And they should be paid more...they are responsible for lives...I'm a retired RN. We need our pilots! And no...I don't want to fly on a commercial jet with only one pilot!! Are they kidding???
I love our generation! 😊
I'm sorry to say this but most of kids nowadays know absolutely nothing about anything, except maybe all the garbage those "influencers" put on the internet.
I tried to become a pilot when I was younger but the lessons were just so expensive, ended up working online for years. Met a regional pilot a decade ago who had just been hired by United. He trained for the regional and now is a Sim trainer for United. We talk about flying all the time. He assures me I could fly and land the Triple 7, not because of my 63 hours in the logbook but because of my computer background and huge interest in flying…. Crazy!
I feel your pain! With all the ups and downs in my aviation career, none was worse than the 2000’s era of slave wages and the Covid era. I was lucky enough to get an early retirement offer from UAL in 2019, I jumped at it. I was 59 going on 69 at the time. Since I would have refused the Jab, I would have been all but fired and wound up without any retirement other than my little 401K. I haven’t been on a flight since my Fini Flight.
I refused the jab and thought I was getting fired (not yet a pilot but a firefighter looking at flying as a second career). Praise God I didn't get fired after all but I feel for you. And then United slapped you all in the face with the "we're moving forward" slogan. I'm glad you had a good career!
5:48 Dad is cool!