The glider that’s on fire in your thumbnail that was at my local club Parham. Pilot got out safe and the glider got fixed in the end, it’s still flying today which is great
It’s a great report, what a thorough investigation and testing they did! Amazing it’s still flying and they were able to extinguish the fire. Cheers for sharing!
Super interesting video - you clearly put a lot of work into researching and writing this one. A mid-air battery fire is definitely on the list of nightmare scenarios 😬 🔥
I work with high power inverters. We use lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) exclusively. We once had a pack rub onto a sharp screw until it shorted out. Quite a lot of burn stains, but no ignition. They're heavier and have slightly less voltage than lithium-ion, but are MUCH safer.
Hi Tim, thank you for this video, it's great! Inspires me to publish a video after 7 years of experience with FES batteries. Keep up your great video making work!
Amazing video my friend! keep it up! I recently started messing around with lithium battery packs and chargers to fix some old tools i have here and this helped me a lot. Sorry for my english. I'm BR.
Great and *important* video... You did not mention explicitly, but all cameras use high density lithium batteries too. Great point about not throwing power banks around... I fly with XCSoar on a 7" device / covered with a piece of cloth to avoid overheating (!) and next flight I will check if it will fit through the cockpit window (just in case..). Thanks Pure Glide!
Wow, I didn't know about the Pipistrel Glider accident but then its been 30 years since I last flew gliders (showing my age now!). It really brings home, that your seat cushion in a glider should be made of a parachute - even for short flights! I'm not sure what the general practices are now, but when we were flying training gliders we never used parachutes (except if doing aerobatics training), however most single seaters came with a parachute. I have an electronics background, and I think your description is your description is very pitched to the general community - well done! I quite like EVs and now driving a car with a LFP battery (although we also have a LEAF with older battery technology which we keep a close eye on - I check battery stats every month). I used to flying model aircraft and have had several Lithium Polly battery failures (including one bulging out the sides of the fuselage!) and only ever charged batteries when someone was around and the charging was in a metal box. The only ones that I actually had catch fire were ones we deliberately overcharged at club meetings for entertainment & education purposes!
I'm surprised that the accident report recommendations didn't include wearing a parachute. The only thing that would stop me wearing a parachute is lack of room.
Hey thanks for sharing, yeah we usually do use parachutes to sit on, unless you have a glider equipped with a ballistic parachute on the fuselage. But if it’s on fire it is not any use!
@@PureGlide The combination of Integrated Rescue System (IRS) and engine flight batteries in the fuselage is simply a bad idea...(as in the scenarios have not been thought thru yet). It will take a few accidents before the regulation agencies will conclude this needs to be forbidden - could take years.
Great Video! Thanks for the effort and research! Also great community! The comments are a great addition. A thing I don't see often. Maybe a pre flight thing to check is, if you'll be flying over an area with dried out woods? In these days maybe you shouldn't throw your burning battery out there.
@@PureGlide I agree. That's why I'm asking, if it should be a pre flight check. If many people live in or around such an area, whose lives were at risk if there were a wild fire, then maybe a higher priority is to divert from this area. But maybe I've simply watched to many flight safety videos on RUclips and am overthinking a very unlikely hypothetical incident. :)
I'm not a pilot but thanks for the information. As a biker there are battery packs in use on the bike and, because of phones, on our person, pockets and helmet. At least an emergency stop and bail out is easier.
I've recently installed a K2 22ah and 12ah batteries. The capacity from these puppies is astonishing. I use the 22ah as the primary and have the 12ah on standby. After 5 hours the 22ah barely has dropped in voltage. It's really impressive. This running double seater glider computers, transponder and Flarm.
Yeah I have the same! No reason not to these days. Although keep in mind there won't be much voltage drop on lithiums anyway due to the voltage curve, so it could be 80% or 60% without looking much different. But so good these days to never even come close to running out.
Thanks Tim. I'm not a glider pilot, but the primer on battery tech was very helpful as I'm looking into replacing Lead-acid batteries in my caravan with (probably, now) some LiFePO4 units. It strikes me that generally my "bail out" scenarios are going to be a lot easier than the ones you might encounter, but you're less likely to do anything so silly as sleep in your glider.
Caught someone with a new Lithium battery last year, rigging, and noticed the terminal were exposed, and it was secured with a metal bar on top. It would have been possible for it to bounce and short out on it. I think it was a LiFePo battery, and that a power management system probably would have protected it, but still we made him go and insulate the terminals. Can't be too safe.
Here's an easy way to judge the health of your cell phone battery (unless you have one of the newfangled camera humps): Put the device on a flat surface and give them a spin. If they make it through a full rotation or more, the battery is likely swollen and should be replaced.
I've been thinking of buying a Pipistrel Taurus Electro for the last few years. I asked the sales team whether the batteries can be removed and charged at home, so that I can store them in cool conditions and charge them only in time for the next flight. But unfortunately they aren't designed to be removable (only for servicing). It's a shame to hear that there have been battery fires.
There should be little need to remove batteries, if they can be stored in location without temperature extremes. A trailer is likely to have more variation in temperature vs. a hanger, or structure in contact with the ground (thermo mass), or insulated. Removing, transportation and repeated installation is likely going to introduce risks, including potential to damage the batteries; so better to just properly store the aircraft.
@@AerialWaviator Pipistrel recommends storing the glider in their solar trailer, which will not only charge the battery, but also run cooling fans to keep the trailer's interior at a reasonable temperature. That would be the only option for me, since the airfield I fly from doesn't have hangar space, and gets a LOT of sunshine. Hopefully the trailer can be programmed to charge the battery to ~50% after a flight, then slowly charge to 100% just in time for a scheduled next flight days later. If not, I'll have to hack it.
@@markmuir7338 If good airflow and climate not too extreme, the trailer should be ideal storage. A remote option to enable charging from storage voltage (50-70%) to fully changed the day before flying would be ideal.
This is the type of video i can recommend EVERYONE. Because it's not only useful to the pilots of gliders but for everyone. I had similar problem during a normal drive in my car. I was using my phone for GPS, 5h travel. In last year, 9am-14pm. Full sun, middle of July(Europe), and of course i had my phone charging, but i putted it around 12am to a charger(because it was around 30%). Around 13 pm, my phone stopped working, and i saw smoke coming out. That was a really crowded highway, so thanks to my friend sitting as passenger, we could throw it out of the windows immediately, while maintaining safety for other drivers . imagine if i chewed it on crowded road(Not a gread idea, but if you're a psychopath, go see a psychologist). So, it doesnt matter if u have a phone in your house, on the beach, in the car, or u are gliding. Always keep an eye on it. Shit happens, be prepared, and don't make stupid mistakes. I found this video really important, actually for everyone, because u can apply it everytime. Your battery can burn even in your house, while u are at work, or on a plane(Legendary Samsung battery). But you can prevent it, not 100% but if u add like 99%, it's still better than being on a plane on fire(Concorde is the only plane with afterburners, B747 or A320 doesnt have it, your battery won't make it faster).
One would think that the designers of electric self-launch/sustainer gliders would build in a method for jettisoning the batteries in case of fire. Dropping flaming batteries on potentially inhabited areas is not attractive, but if a good-sized battery is on fire, its going to come down anyway, with or without a living pilot.
A great reminder video. Just thinking the gliders with big battery packs should also incorporate automatic discharge systems like Dji incorporate when not in use.. Thanks for the upload my antipodean neighbour.
Seems to me like a fundamental design change is necessary for Li electric gliders to have the batteries in a bay which has a door on the bottom for jettison purposes in an emergency. Get over a safe area, pull the handle, battery gone by gravity (and spring?), which would minimize damage to aircraft and allow survivability. Also a mandatory temp and/or smoke sensor in the battery compartment, with indicator light and audible alarm.
This can be even more fun in hang gliding. There's one called e-lift, so far I haven't seen any fire reports. But there wouldn't be a way out since both the batteries and the chute are tied to the harness
I think sailplane manufacturers, and other aircraft manufacturers, that utilize lithium batteries should start thinking of ways to eject these batteries if there is ever a problem. It can easily be done. The battery for an electric powered sailplane could be placed in a fireproof container near the lower surface of the aircraft, with sensors to indicate a fire or extremely high temperature in the box that would be displayed to the pilot. A simple pull of a handle would release the battery. The pilot hopefully would have time to exercise caution about where to drop the battery to avoid people on the ground, but lets face it, a crashing aircraft doesn't provide any options. Sliding windows in the canopy should be big enough to allow any battery powered accessories to pass through in an emergency.
if managed properly then no problem. I think there are several options. you can use the flat LiFepo packs. I think it's the best way to keep the size and weight down. They are a bit heavier but not as bad as lead.
Great video. I've use Lithium batteries to power model airplanes for years, and have had my fair share of incidents with them. A friend of mine crashed a fairly large model and it caught fire. It was in long dry grass a few feet off the runway, and I made the mistake of grabbing it by the tail (which wasn't on fire) and dragging it out of the long grass onto the runway to prevent a larger fire. I must have got some smoke or possibly spewing debris from the fire on my hand and arm as I had burn-like sensations for many hours after it happened. In retrospect, I probably should have rinsed it off immediately with whatever bottled water anyone had at the field, but at the time I didn't know if adding water might make it worse.
Probably burns from radiant heat. Lithium metal can burn in excess of 2000 C. Just being near that will give burns to uncovered skin.... And Yes water would have mitigated the severity of any burns by reducing the heat in the skin. It's just absorbed a huge dose of IR radiation from the fire and needs to be released/cooled as fast as possible.
@@tinkertailor7385 That makes sense. I definitely learned a lesson with that incident! I now have plans in place for all my Lithium batteries, including my phones, computers, tools, E-Bike etc.
I think if battery powered self launch stays around they will need to introduce a method to eject the battery. Either by gravity or by a spring. Possibly an automatic mechanism once a heat sensitive linkage is burned through. I think people using batteries for self sustain or self launch should strongly consider a personal parachute.
There is a distinction between risk and consequence, risk is statistically how likely something is to occur, consequence is how bad it is if it does occur. People who do rock climbing without ropes like to say that the risks of a fall are really rather small, it's just that the consequence of any fall is almost certainly fatal. Listening to this discussion you have to wonder why any sane person would allow a lithium battery of any kind aboard their glider - except maybe a smartphone which you can chuck overboard if you need to. If a device getting hot left out in the sunlight, has hidden damage from having been dropped, or has simply been left fully charged too long and could cause an in flight emergency that might cause you to have to bail out, you have to ask yourself if you really want that device onboard your aircraft.
what we need is a safe super energy dense salt iron battery something or something like that i guess 100 years from now they will look back and wonder how we all lived with potential incendiary devices just in every day without a care in the world "its just madness" i remember in the film the matrix where they say the words whilst drinking red wine and a stake meal that " ignorance is bliss "
Yeah agreed! There’s a lot of alternative chemistries under development that might improve things, but who knows when and which ones actually become commercially viable
Note that *any* battery with high energy density is a potential bomb (same applies to a gas tank in airplanes). Each battery will have it's own prescription on how to ignite it, depending on the chemistry. In my old gliding club (1970's era) someone dropped a wrench from a winch while doing maintenance. It fell on the 24V lead acid truck battery. The battery exploded. The wrench welded itself to the terminals and could not be removed... We will be stuck with Lithium batteries for decades to come. If you decide to fly with them, you *have* to understand the risks and how to mitigate them. I fly the electrical Antares 20E, which has the Lithium-Ion batteries in the wings. At least I would see if they catch fire while flying as apposed to batteries in the fuselage behind me..
@@PureGlide I think the most promising currently-available Lithium-Ion chemistry is Lithium Titanite (LTO). Voltage is a bit low at ~2.3V/cell, which negatively affects gravimetric efficiency (W/kg). But they can be punctured, squashed, cut in half, and they don't suffer thermal runaway. I can't imagine why they're not in aviation use, as the cells are commercially available. They're definitely safer than the Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO, aka Li-Po) batteries, like the Yuasa batteries in the B787 that caught fire.
@@satoshimanabe2493 LiFePo4 is safer, cheaper initial cost and much higher energy density (160 v 80Wh/kg) than LTO anodes, but lower cycle life. Solid state electrolyte-less will replace more expensive and safety sensitive batteries in the future.
@@waynerussell6401 Excellent point on solid state batteries. That transition should be much more resistant to shorts, and the lack of liquid in the electrolyte will make it lighter. It's a win-win.
sorry, as glider pilot, and former glider designer, the figure in the middle for the lithium comparison part is a lithium polymer accumulator, but you identify it as a lithium ion battery and that's wrong. FES uses lithium polymer cells (it was very difficult certifying them, i know for sure), Arcus E (the few) and the self launching Lange gliders use lithium ions in the wings.
In the airline world we carry bags (and fireproof gloves) to handle devices encountering a Li-Ion fire. Put then device in the bag and dump in 13 liters of water. Obviously no option to Chuck it overboard.
You missed one important point. Dielectric resistance of air decreases with height. This is why you cannot check in batteries in your lugage when flying in airlines. Same applyes to gliders, that are not presurised!!! Are our phones, chargers... and rest of gadgets designed and certified for high altitude operation??? At high altitude a shorcircuit is easier to happen. I suppouse glider equipment takes into account this but I doubt others gadgets do.
I thought batteries weren't allowed in the luggage because if one starts a fire, they can't put it in a bucket of sand... interesting though, that's the first I've heard of dielectric resistance of air. Cheers!
@@PureGlide Hi, the explanation is simple, to create an arc all molecules have to be orientated/ionized in a particular way along the path, the less number of molecules (because of less density) the easier to orientate/ionize all of them at the same time and create an arc. BTW Correct name is "Dielectric Strength" . I just ried to find its impact in aviation but I have not found anything. Here you have the actual physical phenomenom. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law
oh yes thank you for the pause for thought. I wonder how well that 3m would work. if you filled the case with the liquid and put a condenser in. Its also used to extinguish server fires. I also thought maybe another inert liquid. Its just a thought.
Forgot to mention, When this liquid becomes gas it cools whatever its touching. It can be set temperature wise to stay in a range. The gas is condensed and the heat is transferred away.
Don’t be scared, just follow the manufacturer’s instructions! And the batteries will be fine. These incidents I mentioned were years ago, and they’ve done a lot of improvements since. Also be prepared, if worst comes to worst, know what to do, vacate with your parachute! But that is very unlikely to happen
Battery powered cars are ten times less likely to catch fire than ICE. electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2022/01/Car-Vehicle-Fires-Chart.jpg?resize=1600,800 cdn.motor1.com/images/custom/thumbnail/tesla-vehicle-fire-data-2012-2021.png
Interesting difference between lead acid and lithium when used in a typical club. Clubs tend to leave the batteries on charge when the gliders are hangared. Even lead acid don't like sitting on the charger for months. Lithium won't like that at all. Clubs replacing lead acid batteries with lithium because the lead acid batteries don't last are going to be disappointed when their lithium batteries die an early death from the same treatment that killed the lead batteries. The main difference will be the lithium batteries cost more to replace. That and the chance of a fire. A BMS is no substitute for actually managing the state of charge of the batteries. You can't just plug it in and always have a fully charged battery available for instant use.
Yeah I haven’t seen any lithium batteries die early in our club yet, and we’ve been running them by charging after flight for years now. But yeah it won’t be helping their lifespan!
LTO are amazing, they dont catch fire at all, usually a smaller vcoltage (2.5V) but the charge they hold can be over 150Ah! for a SINGLE cell, also this BS about 30-80% is all totally crap!
At 5:55, the pack labeled as Lithium-Ion, is actually a Li-Po (Lithium-Polymer) pack. This is a different chemistry (less energy dense) than Li-Ion, but is able to deliver higher currents. The working voltage ranges do differ. So charging process needs to address, to ensure voltage and current levels not mixed up. (same at 9:52, the video is labeled Li-Pol, not Li-Ion). Only mentioning, as treating Li-Pol like Li-ion can be risky, particularly when charging. (ie: use proper charger) Generally with any lithium chemistry, they won't burst into flame without warning. Typically the cells will exhibit physical deformation (bulging, etc), or are warm. Besides overcharging (too high a voltage), drawing, or charging at too high current can cause cells to get warm. With multi-cell packs, it's also very important to use a charger with balancing capability. Without this, it becomes easier to overcharge a single cell in a pack. (most cells are lower voltage, but one cell could be much higher voltage, and this not obvious from looking at overall pack voltage). Like most things having a degree of risk, using the proper equipment, and some basic precautions will greatly reduce risk potential.
Hi thanks for the corrections. In this video I referred to 'Lithium Ion' as all non 'Lithium Iron Phosphate' chemistries, not a specific chemistry. Technically that might be incorrect, but you get the idea. And yes maybe I didn't make clear enough the process of swelling and smoke before explosions! Cheers
Li-ion vs lipo is just the cell packaging. It doesn't specify the chemistry of the battery. For pouch cells (lipo), manufacturers typically chose a chemistry that will not generate as much gas as the plastic cannot hold much pressure unlike a metal packaging (can/prismatic).
@@christianedelmann6880 This is not correct. Li-Po is a cheaper chemistry will only ~60% of the energy density of Li-Po cells of the similar volume, or mass. Li-Po chemistry will cost more, but provides ~150% more energy. There are also charging and handling differences.
Yeah new batteries are usually fine! They will usually only have a problem when they have been dropped, crushed or abused in some way. Or there is a flaw from the factory. And in most cases it's only a problem when they are charged. Most products with lithium batteries will come half charged, and wouldn't be charged in store (unless it's a demo unit or something)
Makes me wonder how represented thermal runaway is in powered general aviation and the glider community in general, given both tend to use GPS devices portable devices. I can see the dangers in both worlds.
@@PureGlide We do have big battery packs in GA with the Pipistrel Alpha Electro that is now approved for flight training in Australia. I wonder how safe those are?
So I watched this video which succeeded in making me think about the relative risk angle. Yes Lithium batteries probably do explode into flames reminiscent of the rapture. But is it really the biggest risk we face in the glider? I think the statistics will show it's the mundane stuff that normally reaches up and bites us...you know, spin stall, not missing the mountains, and more relevant to this discussion...failure to start your petrol powered turbo close to the ground...Tim!!! A better question might be why are we moving away from lead batteries? I suspect it's because we are being required to run more stuff (ADS-D for example), flight tracking software, Flarm, ever more powerful Nav gear etc. And some of this stuff has a competing safety argument. My club wants me to run tracking software on my phone while I'm on a X-Country flight. Seems reasonable. However it has a high power draw so I need a back-up power source. In my case I use a Power Bank as it works. Further, its a cell phone...Lithium battery...(cue dramatic music) and the gliders carbon-fibre fuse blocks any signal so I install it in full view of the sun...oh and the cell phone network. I note even the author has his cell phone in a full sun exposure position despite the fact that Ventus C is made out of canvas and string...or so I've been told. Yes LiFePO4 is safer than LiFe but I'm not sure we have that option with phones and power banks...or cameras for that matter. I did question whether I should give up gliding and take up a safer sport...lawn bowls for example...however more people die bowling that any other sport in New Zealand...OK...skiing...oh wait!!!
Yeah not unsafe at all if you follow my instructions in the video! "My club wants me to run tracking software on my phone while I'm on a X-Country flight" That's not the club, that's me, so I can see how far behind you are :P
@@PureGlide I had one on my boat sailing from Oahu back to SF in 2012. I thought I had killed it due to overcharging (this crap was fairly immature on ocean racing boats in ‘12). I disconnected it and stashed it in a cabinet where a can of Boeshield fell onto it, shorting the poles and lighting the ENTIRE FRIGGING MESS on fire. I put on oven mitts, carried the pyre up the ladder and tossed it into 17kft of water. Yes indeed, you can REALLY mess them up.
What about charging your battery in flight? With a rotor setup like yours one could use that for charging? What kind of batteries would you use for that?
Hi I wouldn't use the engine to charge the battery, because it's only operating for about a minute or two. Some people use solar panels, but I wouldn't recommend it for Lithium batteries, as that's the most likely time for a problem to happen.
@@PureGlide I don't quite understand. What happens after 2 minutes? To avoid missunderstandings: The setup I propose is as following: We use a rotor, that can be turned by the headwind. U have such a rotor on your glider, you use it to start the engine. Than we use an electric motor, that can produce a current when turned. Obvoisly we need an advanced battary management for that, but at the end of the day, that is just software. Than when we have a good termal lift, we take a dive recharge the battarie and reagain attitude with the lift. Thereby using the energy that is in one spot later in the day to help us out. Since this could be done multible times in one flight the same amount of capacity (or even less) could be way more usefull. You mentioned solar energy to recharge the batteries which sounds cool, too. But ma instinkt is, that when gliding, there is just more Energy in wind. Also, I would guess it is cheaper, than covering your glider in Solar cells, but I could be wrong about that since the prices of solar cells are falling quite a bit.
Gotchya! Depends which batteries we are talking about: we have avionics batteries (small) and some have electric propulsion (big batteries). Avionics batteries is what I thought you meant, that’s what people use solar panels for. Can’t really get enough solar to charge a propulsion battery, they are too big. And I thought you meant when I run my petrol engine I could charge my battery. That’s what I only use for 2 minutes. As for a RAT style generator, I guess it’s possible! You’d have to extract it, it would create drag, our glider speeds aren’t that fast so not sure it would be that useful compared to a jet. Also usually engines are used at the end of the day, when there isn’t any more option to find lift, so recharging it isn’t likely. Good idea though!
@@PureGlide obviously it creates drag, the energy needs to come from somewhere. So it only makes sens to do if you either can regain the Energy, or have to bleed it of anyway. I would Imagine with the option to recharge your battery mid flight one might alter the when the motor is used. Cashing in on some opportunities you might not otherwise. Also I guess when you selfstart, that takes a fair chunk out of the charge, making int a good Idea, to recharge somewhere in between that and the End of the day. About the amount of Energy, that can be gained by that: You are in a fairly good position to make some tests about this.
Lithium Ion is the term used for all batteries in which lithium ions move from the negative electrode through an electrolyte to the positive electrode during discharge and back when charging. LI-Ion batteries can have different cathodes including LifePo4, LiCoO 2, LiMn 2O4, Li2MnO3, LiNiMnCoO 2, LiNiCoAlO2... Each have a charging regime with different minimum and maximum voltages. LiPo batteries use a gel electrolyte rather than liquid. previously
Just before my IPhone battery swelled I noticed a sweet smell, like strawberries, coming from the phone. This may also be detectable in a glider. If you notice unusual smells, check out the batteries?
People don't use Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries anymore? My 3rd Gen Prius still uses NiMH cells so its not like the chemistry is completely deprecated, it's just not *cool.*
@@PureGlide Yes, obviously, but if you rewatch your own video you have to ask yourself if a component, such as lithium batteries, with such a badly skewed risk to consequence ratio have any place in aviation. One cell with an invisible fault and your whole battery pack catches fire and you risk serious injury, death, or destruction of your aircraft. That does not sound like something I want. My larger point is that the electro-mania that is sweeping the culture we are being induced/seduced to accept a battery technology that comes with significant problems at every level while better, greener technologies are still in the laboratory.
to be fair... I would expect gliders to have battery compartments with an emergency dump .. when smoke or heat pull big lever Bombs awaaaaay obviously you try not to dump over houses.
You fail to mention these incidents happened over 5 years ago and since then battery technology (particularly battery monitoring) has moved on, and certification standards for electric powered aircraft are a lot higher - indeed Luka at LZDesign who make the FES system has put a lot of work into making the system as 'foolproof' as possible, as have most manufacturers using electric power............. can you cite any incidents in the last 2-3 years of a 'battery fire' in a sailplane?
Hi yeah that is a great point. I did think about mentioning that these accidents have improved safety on these systems, thanks to the recommendations from the reports, but I just can't cover everything, the videos get too long. So thanks for bringing it up. And agreed, safety around these systems is improving every year. Cheers!
I think there's a lot of FUD around this subject. These are black swan events similar to those seen with modern electric cars. I am not aware of any inflight fires in gliders and there's a lot of other stuff that can get you before you'll deal with an inflight fire. Hopefully I am not proven wrong because I just put in an order for a JS3 RES :-)
Yeah well that fire in NZ was a fatal accident caused directly from an inflight glider fire. So definitely possible. And for small electronics it’s just a matter of time… I think you’ll be fine with your JS3 Fes, I’d fly one happily!!
I found a few more glider battery fire incidents: www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-hph-glasflugel-304-es-g-gsgs www.atsb.gov.au/media/5777185/ao-2018-009_final.pdf
I can toss the cell phone out the window... it's electric powered vehicles with internal batteries that scare me... that's a big fire a d you can't toss it out the window
If it's just a little battery to run electronics and not a motor, I'd rather just stick with the little agm. The weight difference is nothing. Look at the weigh of water in the wings, the weight of your drinking water - did you go to the toilet before the flight??? what did that weigh and then the WEIGHT OF THE RISK/WORRY FACTOR! To hell with this crap, agm would give me great piece of mind and a white plastic shield [ cut down ice cream container etc ] for the top and back of the phone/tablet where the sun hits it - easy and job done.
We do use Lithium iron phosphate in the glider just because of the steady voltage and capacity. It’s not about weight, but space to fit a battery. And the fact we can use over 50% of the battery.
@@PureGlide Fair call, but even if you have two little ones or one larger, still not large and maybe solar and the risk/danger is gone. I thought they were behind the seat.
Haha 😂 are you a glider pilot? An Oudie is the common flight computer we use, basically like a cell phone with a big battery. I pronounce it Like “loudly” but I think people overseas say oodie like “moody”. Hope that helps!
Yeah, I was wondering how to get my A4 in the cockpit! I had absolutely no idea what was meant. Besides, an Android phone running XCSoar is in my experience much more reliable. Meanwhile when I considered the advantages and dangers of Lithium a couple of years ago I decided to stay with lead-acid, even though I still have my phone batteries to worry about.
The glider that’s on fire in your thumbnail that was at my local club Parham. Pilot got out safe and the glider got fixed in the end, it’s still flying today which is great
It’s a great report, what a thorough investigation and testing they did! Amazing it’s still flying and they were able to extinguish the fire. Cheers for sharing!
Super interesting video - you clearly put a lot of work into researching and writing this one. A mid-air battery fire is definitely on the list of nightmare scenarios 😬 🔥
Thanks Will!
I work with high power inverters. We use lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) exclusively. We once had a pack rub onto a sharp screw until it shorted out. Quite a lot of burn stains, but no ignition. They're heavier and have slightly less voltage than lithium-ion, but are MUCH safer.
Agreed, I use LiFePO4 in my campervan for that reason too :)
Hi Tim, thank you for this video, it's great! Inspires me to publish a video after 7 years of experience with FES batteries. Keep up your great video making work!
Yeah that would be great! Cheers :)
Great coverage of a complex, very relevant topic. Thanks Tim 👍👍
Thank you, cheers
Thank you, Tim - safety is always an important topic and it was very interesting video about batteries.
Glad you enjoyed it, cheers
Amazing video my friend! keep it up!
I recently started messing around with lithium battery packs and chargers to fix some old tools i have here and this helped me a lot.
Sorry for my english. I'm BR.
Thanks for watching Gerson, glad you liked it!
Great and *important* video... You did not mention explicitly, but all cameras use high density lithium batteries too. Great point about not throwing power banks around... I fly with XCSoar on a 7" device / covered with a piece of cloth to avoid overheating (!) and next flight I will check if it will fit through the cockpit window (just in case..). Thanks Pure Glide!
Hey thanks Ronald, glad you found it useful!
Wow, I didn't know about the Pipistrel Glider accident but then its been 30 years since I last flew gliders (showing my age now!). It really brings home, that your seat cushion in a glider should be made of a parachute - even for short flights! I'm not sure what the general practices are now, but when we were flying training gliders we never used parachutes (except if doing aerobatics training), however most single seaters came with a parachute.
I have an electronics background, and I think your description is your description is very pitched to the general community - well done! I quite like EVs and now driving a car with a LFP battery (although we also have a LEAF with older battery technology which we keep a close eye on - I check battery stats every month). I used to flying model aircraft and have had several Lithium Polly battery failures (including one bulging out the sides of the fuselage!) and only ever charged batteries when someone was around and the charging was in a metal box. The only ones that I actually had catch fire were ones we deliberately overcharged at club meetings for entertainment & education purposes!
I'm surprised that the accident report recommendations didn't include wearing a parachute. The only thing that would stop me wearing a parachute is lack of room.
Hey thanks for sharing, yeah we usually do use parachutes to sit on, unless you have a glider equipped with a ballistic parachute on the fuselage. But if it’s on fire it is not any use!
@@PureGlide The combination of Integrated Rescue System (IRS) and engine flight batteries in the fuselage is simply a bad idea...(as in the scenarios have not been thought thru yet). It will take a few accidents before the regulation agencies will conclude this needs to be forbidden - could take years.
Great Video! Thanks for the effort and research! Also great community! The comments are a great addition. A thing I don't see often.
Maybe a pre flight thing to check is, if you'll be flying over an area with dried out woods? In these days maybe you shouldn't throw your burning battery out there.
Yeah obviously that would not be ideal, but which would you choose: have a fire on board or risk a fire below?
@@PureGlide I agree. That's why I'm asking, if it should be a pre flight check. If many people live in or around such an area, whose lives were at risk if there were a wild fire, then maybe a higher priority is to divert from this area. But maybe I've simply watched to many flight safety videos on RUclips and am overthinking a very unlikely hypothetical incident. :)
Nice video Tim. I love the advice the FM of the lak gives you...if the warning light on the panel comes on bail out!!
Haha, wise words!
I'm not a pilot but thanks for the information. As a biker there are battery packs in use on the bike and, because of phones, on our person, pockets and helmet. At least an emergency stop and bail out is easier.
I've recently installed a K2 22ah and 12ah batteries. The capacity from these puppies is astonishing. I use the 22ah as the primary and have the 12ah on standby. After 5 hours the 22ah barely has dropped in voltage. It's really impressive. This running double seater glider computers, transponder and Flarm.
Yeah I have the same! No reason not to these days. Although keep in mind there won't be much voltage drop on lithiums anyway due to the voltage curve, so it could be 80% or 60% without looking much different. But so good these days to never even come close to running out.
Thanks Tim. I'm not a glider pilot, but the primer on battery tech was very helpful as I'm looking into replacing Lead-acid batteries in my caravan with (probably, now) some LiFePO4 units. It strikes me that generally my "bail out" scenarios are going to be a lot easier than the ones you might encounter, but you're less likely to do anything so silly as sleep in your glider.
Yeah stick to LiFePO4 I suggest! And you’ll be fine :) I just swapped out my lithium ion cells for LiFePO4
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Jolly good show, Tim! (Like the British would say) 😃👍
Thank's Johan!
Superb, thank you Tim! Did not realise I was flying around with several UXB's on board!
Glad to help! haha
Thanks for the great video! I'm not a glider pilot, but definitely will use the knowledge.
Glad it was helpful!
Oh shit, and we have those banks and phones and tablets in the harnesses, might be time to rethink. Thx for the input
Yeah be careful, it's unlikely anything will go wrong with them, but you want to be ready if it does!
Caught someone with a new Lithium battery last year, rigging, and noticed the terminal were exposed, and it was secured with a metal bar on top. It would have been possible for it to bounce and short out on it. I think it was a LiFePo battery, and that a power management system probably would have protected it, but still we made him go and insulate the terminals. Can't be too safe.
Yeah, not sure the BMS can protect against current that high, so a very good idea!
Also bear in mind that dielectric resitance of air decreses with hight, it could make an arc if it goes high enough.
Important topic & well presented. Thanks Mate! :-)
Thanks Johan!
Here's an easy way to judge the health of your cell phone battery (unless you have one of the newfangled camera humps): Put the device on a flat surface and give them a spin. If they make it through a full rotation or more, the battery is likely swollen and should be replaced.
Great tip! Cheers
very informative - thanks for putting together!
My pleasure!
А вы представляете как жить с самим собой, таким насквозь взрывоопасным? ))
I've been thinking of buying a Pipistrel Taurus Electro for the last few years. I asked the sales team whether the batteries can be removed and charged at home, so that I can store them in cool conditions and charge them only in time for the next flight. But unfortunately they aren't designed to be removable (only for servicing). It's a shame to hear that there have been battery fires.
Yeah do read the report for more information, I’m sure if you look after the batteries, they will be fine!
There should be little need to remove batteries, if they can be stored in location without temperature extremes. A trailer is likely to have more variation in temperature vs. a hanger, or structure in contact with the ground (thermo mass), or insulated.
Removing, transportation and repeated installation is likely going to introduce risks, including potential to damage the batteries; so better to just properly store the aircraft.
@@AerialWaviator Pipistrel recommends storing the glider in their solar trailer, which will not only charge the battery, but also run cooling fans to keep the trailer's interior at a reasonable temperature. That would be the only option for me, since the airfield I fly from doesn't have hangar space, and gets a LOT of sunshine. Hopefully the trailer can be programmed to charge the battery to ~50% after a flight, then slowly charge to 100% just in time for a scheduled next flight days later. If not, I'll have to hack it.
@@markmuir7338 If good airflow and climate not too extreme, the trailer should be ideal storage. A remote option to enable charging from storage voltage (50-70%) to fully changed the day before flying would be ideal.
Excellent video!
Thanks Adrian!
This is the type of video i can recommend EVERYONE. Because it's not only useful to the pilots of gliders but for everyone. I had similar problem during a normal drive in my car. I was using my phone for GPS, 5h travel. In last year, 9am-14pm. Full sun, middle of July(Europe), and of course i had my phone charging, but i putted it around 12am to a charger(because it was around 30%). Around 13 pm, my phone stopped working, and i saw smoke coming out. That was a really crowded highway, so thanks to my friend sitting as passenger, we could throw it out of the windows immediately, while maintaining safety for other drivers
. imagine if i chewed it on crowded road(Not a gread idea, but if you're a psychopath, go see a psychologist). So, it doesnt matter if u have a phone in your house, on the beach, in the car, or u are gliding. Always keep an eye on it. Shit happens, be prepared, and don't make stupid mistakes.
I found this video really important, actually for everyone, because u can apply it everytime. Your battery can burn even in your house, while u are at work, or on a plane(Legendary Samsung battery). But you can prevent it, not 100% but if u add like 99%, it's still better than being on a plane on fire(Concorde is the only plane with afterburners, B747 or A320 doesnt have it, your battery won't make it faster).
One would think that the designers of electric self-launch/sustainer gliders would build in a method for jettisoning the batteries in case of fire. Dropping flaming batteries on potentially inhabited areas is not attractive, but if a good-sized battery is on fire, its going to come down anyway, with or without a living pilot.
I thought the same thing!
A great reminder video. Just thinking the gliders with big battery packs should also incorporate automatic discharge systems like Dji incorporate when not in use.. Thanks for the upload my antipodean neighbour.
Yeah I wondered that too, probably because they are big packs, so would require something substantial to use that amount of energy, like a heater.
Seems to me like a fundamental design change is necessary for Li electric gliders to have the batteries in a bay which has a door on the bottom for jettison purposes in an emergency. Get over a safe area, pull the handle, battery gone by gravity (and spring?), which would minimize damage to aircraft and allow survivability. Also a mandatory temp and/or smoke sensor in the battery compartment, with indicator light and audible alarm.
Yes, it seems obvious really! But they have improved a number of other things such as a better fire box around it
This can be even more fun in hang gliding. There's one called e-lift, so far I haven't seen any fire reports. But there wouldn't be a way out since both the batteries and the chute are tied to the harness
Hmm yeah sounds like there should be a way to jettison it!
"catchy" haha. Yes good video as usual, thank you!
Thanks!
thank your, interesting subject indeed
Glad you enjoyed it
I think sailplane manufacturers, and other aircraft manufacturers, that utilize lithium batteries should start thinking of ways to eject these batteries if there is ever a problem. It can easily be done. The battery for an electric powered sailplane could be placed in a fireproof container near the lower surface of the aircraft, with sensors to indicate a fire or extremely high temperature in the box that would be displayed to the pilot. A simple pull of a handle would release the battery. The pilot hopefully would have time to exercise caution about where to drop the battery to avoid people on the ground, but lets face it, a crashing aircraft doesn't provide any options. Sliding windows in the canopy should be big enough to allow any battery powered accessories to pass through in an emergency.
Yes although if the batteries are looked after it should never be a problem!
if managed properly then no problem. I think there are several options. you can use the flat LiFepo packs. I think it's the best way to keep the size and weight down. They are a bit heavier but not as bad as lead.
Yeah exactly, LiFePO4 would be safer, but the size weight becomes an issue with them for providing enough power.
Great video. I've use Lithium batteries to power model airplanes for years, and have had my fair share of incidents with them. A friend of mine crashed a fairly large model and it caught fire. It was in long dry grass a few feet off the runway, and I made the mistake of grabbing it by the tail (which wasn't on fire) and dragging it out of the long grass onto the runway to prevent a larger fire. I must have got some smoke or possibly spewing debris from the fire on my hand and arm as I had burn-like sensations for many hours after it happened. In retrospect, I probably should have rinsed it off immediately with whatever bottled water anyone had at the field, but at the time I didn't know if adding water might make it worse.
Probably burns from radiant heat. Lithium metal can burn in excess of 2000 C. Just being near that will give burns to uncovered skin.... And Yes water would have mitigated the severity of any burns by reducing the heat in the skin. It's just absorbed a huge dose of IR radiation from the fire and needs to be released/cooled as fast as possible.
@@tinkertailor7385 That makes sense. I definitely learned a lesson with that incident! I now have plans in place for all my Lithium batteries, including my phones, computers, tools, E-Bike etc.
I think if battery powered self launch stays around they will need to introduce a method to eject the battery. Either by gravity or by a spring. Possibly an automatic mechanism once a heat sensitive linkage is burned through. I think people using batteries for self sustain or self launch should strongly consider a personal parachute.
There is a distinction between risk and consequence, risk is statistically how likely something is to occur, consequence is how bad it is if it does occur. People who do rock climbing without ropes like to say that the risks of a fall are really rather small, it's just that the consequence of any fall is almost certainly fatal.
Listening to this discussion you have to wonder why any sane person would allow a lithium battery of any kind aboard their glider - except maybe a smartphone which you can chuck overboard if you need to. If a device getting hot left out in the sunlight, has hidden damage from having been dropped, or has simply been left fully charged too long and could cause an in flight emergency that might cause you to have to bail out, you have to ask yourself if you really want that device onboard your aircraft.
what we need is a safe super energy dense salt iron battery something or something like that i guess 100 years from now they will look back and wonder how we all lived with potential incendiary devices just in every day without a care in the world "its just madness" i remember in the film the matrix where they say the words whilst drinking red wine and a stake meal that " ignorance is bliss "
Yeah agreed! There’s a lot of alternative chemistries under development that might improve things, but who knows when and which ones actually become commercially viable
Note that *any* battery with high energy density is a potential bomb (same applies to a gas tank in airplanes). Each battery will have it's own prescription on how to ignite it, depending on the chemistry. In my old gliding club (1970's era) someone dropped a wrench from a winch while doing maintenance. It fell on the 24V lead acid truck battery. The battery exploded. The wrench welded itself to the terminals and could not be removed...
We will be stuck with Lithium batteries for decades to come. If you decide to fly with them, you *have* to understand the risks and how to mitigate them. I fly the electrical Antares 20E, which has the Lithium-Ion batteries in the wings. At least I would see if they catch fire while flying as apposed to batteries in the fuselage behind me..
@@PureGlide I think the most promising currently-available Lithium-Ion chemistry is Lithium Titanite (LTO). Voltage is a bit low at ~2.3V/cell, which negatively affects gravimetric efficiency (W/kg). But they can be punctured, squashed, cut in half, and they don't suffer thermal runaway. I can't imagine why they're not in aviation use, as the cells are commercially available. They're definitely safer than the Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LCO, aka Li-Po) batteries, like the Yuasa batteries in the B787 that caught fire.
@@satoshimanabe2493 LiFePo4 is safer, cheaper initial cost and much higher energy density (160 v 80Wh/kg) than LTO anodes, but lower cycle life. Solid state electrolyte-less will replace more expensive and safety sensitive batteries in the future.
@@waynerussell6401 Excellent point on solid state batteries. That transition should be much more resistant to shorts, and the lack of liquid in the electrolyte will make it lighter. It's a win-win.
sorry, as glider pilot, and former glider designer, the figure in the middle for the lithium comparison part is a lithium polymer accumulator, but you identify it as a lithium ion battery and that's wrong. FES uses lithium polymer cells (it was very difficult certifying them, i know for sure), Arcus E (the few) and the self launching Lange gliders use lithium ions in the wings.
Yeah I i couldn’t find a good example with price available, but gives a rough idea. Thanks for sharing!
its a bird, its a plane, its a shooting star...its....its on FIRE!!
In the airline world we carry bags (and fireproof gloves) to handle devices encountering a Li-Ion fire. Put then device in the bag and dump in 13 liters of water. Obviously no option to Chuck it overboard.
I can only imagine that smoke in the cabin too! Have you ever had a phone or other battery start smoking on any of your flights?
You missed one important point. Dielectric resistance of air decreases with height. This is why you cannot check in batteries in your lugage when flying in airlines. Same applyes to gliders, that are not presurised!!! Are our phones, chargers... and rest of gadgets designed and certified for high altitude operation??? At high altitude a shorcircuit is easier to happen. I suppouse glider equipment takes into account this but I doubt others gadgets do.
I thought batteries weren't allowed in the luggage because if one starts a fire, they can't put it in a bucket of sand... interesting though, that's the first I've heard of dielectric resistance of air. Cheers!
@@PureGlide Hi, the explanation is simple, to create an arc all molecules have to be orientated/ionized in a particular way along the path, the less number of molecules (because of less density) the easier to orientate/ionize all of them at the same time and create an arc. BTW Correct name is "Dielectric Strength" . I just ried to find its impact in aviation but I have not found anything. Here you have the actual physical phenomenom. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law
oh yes thank you for the pause for thought. I wonder how well that 3m would work. if you filled the case with the liquid and put a condenser in. Its also used to extinguish server fires. I also thought maybe another inert liquid. Its just a thought.
Forgot to mention, When this liquid becomes gas it cools whatever its touching. It can be set temperature wise to stay in a range. The gas is condensed and the heat is transferred away.
Possibly, but as long as you look after them, and treat them as directed, shouldn't have any problems! And worst case, you can jump out :O
In this video I learn that glider pilots wear parachutes.
We sure do! Not always, but I always say: if you need one, you'll be glad you've got it.
now you scared me. I just bought a FES glider. The question is: are electrical fires more often than fire with normal combustion engines?
Don’t be scared, just follow the manufacturer’s instructions! And the batteries will be fine. These incidents I mentioned were years ago, and they’ve done a lot of improvements since. Also be prepared, if worst comes to worst, know what to do, vacate with your parachute! But that is very unlikely to happen
Battery powered cars are ten times less likely to catch fire than ICE.
electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2022/01/Car-Vehicle-Fires-Chart.jpg?resize=1600,800
cdn.motor1.com/images/custom/thumbnail/tesla-vehicle-fire-data-2012-2021.png
Interesting difference between lead acid and lithium when used in a typical club. Clubs tend to leave the batteries on charge when the gliders are hangared. Even lead acid don't like sitting on the charger for months. Lithium won't like that at all.
Clubs replacing lead acid batteries with lithium because the lead acid batteries don't last are going to be disappointed when their lithium batteries die an early death from the same treatment that killed the lead batteries. The main difference will be the lithium batteries cost more to replace. That and the chance of a fire.
A BMS is no substitute for actually managing the state of charge of the batteries. You can't just plug it in and always have a fully charged battery available for instant use.
Yeah I haven’t seen any lithium batteries die early in our club yet, and we’ve been running them by charging after flight for years now. But yeah it won’t be helping their lifespan!
LTO are amazing, they dont catch fire at all, usually a smaller vcoltage (2.5V) but the charge they hold can be over 150Ah! for a SINGLE cell, also this BS about 30-80% is all totally crap!
Battery vs jet self launch
No clear choice unless money is not a factor
The old petrol engines have that advantage: cheap, well known, not much to go wrong!
At 5:55, the pack labeled as Lithium-Ion, is actually a Li-Po (Lithium-Polymer) pack. This is a different chemistry (less energy dense) than Li-Ion, but is able to deliver higher currents. The working voltage ranges do differ. So charging process needs to address, to ensure voltage and current levels not mixed up.
(same at 9:52, the video is labeled Li-Pol, not Li-Ion). Only mentioning, as treating Li-Pol like Li-ion can be risky, particularly when charging. (ie: use proper charger)
Generally with any lithium chemistry, they won't burst into flame without warning. Typically the cells will exhibit physical deformation (bulging, etc), or are warm. Besides overcharging (too high a voltage), drawing, or charging at too high current can cause cells to get warm. With multi-cell packs, it's also very important to use a charger with balancing capability. Without this, it becomes easier to overcharge a single cell in a pack. (most cells are lower voltage, but one cell could be much higher voltage, and this not obvious from looking at overall pack voltage).
Like most things having a degree of risk, using the proper equipment, and some basic precautions will greatly reduce risk potential.
Hi thanks for the corrections. In this video I referred to 'Lithium Ion' as all non 'Lithium Iron Phosphate' chemistries, not a specific chemistry. Technically that might be incorrect, but you get the idea. And yes maybe I didn't make clear enough the process of swelling and smoke before explosions!
Cheers
@@PureGlide In broad sense, your video was spot on, with general knowledge.
Overall a good video.
Thank you!
Li-ion vs lipo is just the cell packaging. It doesn't specify the chemistry of the battery. For pouch cells (lipo), manufacturers typically chose a chemistry that will not generate as much gas as the plastic cannot hold much pressure unlike a metal packaging (can/prismatic).
@@christianedelmann6880 This is not correct. Li-Po is a cheaper chemistry will only ~60% of the energy density of Li-Po cells of the similar volume, or mass. Li-Po chemistry will cost more, but provides ~150% more energy. There are also charging and handling differences.
I figure JB HIFI would be on fire every night if lithium batteries were notorious.
Yeah new batteries are usually fine! They will usually only have a problem when they have been dropped, crushed or abused in some way. Or there is a flaw from the factory. And in most cases it's only a problem when they are charged. Most products with lithium batteries will come half charged, and wouldn't be charged in store (unless it's a demo unit or something)
Please don't get me wrong. I do enjoy your videos.
Thank you!
Makes me wonder how represented thermal runaway is in powered general aviation and the glider community in general, given both tend to use GPS devices portable devices. I can see the dangers in both worlds.
Yeah absolutely, although the smaller batteries are certainly less risk than bigger ones.
@@PureGlide We do have big battery packs in GA with the Pipistrel Alpha Electro that is now approved for flight training in Australia.
I wonder how safe those are?
As long as you look after them, follow the manufacturers instructions, don't drop them or leave them fully charged for long periods, perfectly safe!
So I watched this video which succeeded in making me think about the relative risk angle. Yes Lithium batteries probably do explode into flames reminiscent of the rapture. But is it really the biggest risk we face in the glider? I think the statistics will show it's the mundane stuff that normally reaches up and bites us...you know, spin stall, not missing the mountains, and more relevant to this discussion...failure to start your petrol powered turbo close to the ground...Tim!!! A better question might be why are we moving away from lead batteries? I suspect it's because we are being required to run more stuff (ADS-D for example), flight tracking software, Flarm, ever more powerful Nav gear etc. And some of this stuff has a competing safety argument. My club wants me to run tracking software on my phone while I'm on a X-Country flight. Seems reasonable. However it has a high power draw so I need a back-up power source. In my case I use a Power Bank as it works. Further, its a cell phone...Lithium battery...(cue dramatic music) and the gliders carbon-fibre fuse blocks any signal so I install it in full view of the sun...oh and the cell phone network. I note even the author has his cell phone in a full sun exposure position despite the fact that Ventus C is made out of canvas and string...or so I've been told. Yes LiFePO4 is safer than LiFe but I'm not sure we have that option with phones and power banks...or cameras for that matter. I did question whether I should give up gliding and take up a safer sport...lawn bowls for example...however more people die bowling that any other sport in New Zealand...OK...skiing...oh wait!!!
Yeah not unsafe at all if you follow my instructions in the video!
"My club wants me to run tracking software on my phone while I'm on a X-Country flight" That's not the club, that's me, so I can see how far behind you are :P
@@PureGlide Which is another safety issue...as its not good for my mental health. I may need a day off....
I wouldn’t use ANYTHING other than a LiFePO4. They might get hot, but they won’t catch on fire…
Not unless you REALLY mess them up!
@@PureGlide I had one on my boat sailing from Oahu back to SF in 2012. I thought I had killed it due to overcharging (this crap was fairly immature on ocean racing boats in ‘12). I disconnected it and stashed it in a cabinet where a can of Boeshield fell onto it, shorting the poles and lighting the ENTIRE FRIGGING MESS on fire. I put on oven mitts, carried the pyre up the ladder and tossed it into 17kft of water. Yes indeed, you can REALLY mess them up.
Blimey!
What about charging your battery in flight? With a rotor setup like yours one could use that for charging? What kind of batteries would you use for that?
Hi I wouldn't use the engine to charge the battery, because it's only operating for about a minute or two. Some people use solar panels, but I wouldn't recommend it for Lithium batteries, as that's the most likely time for a problem to happen.
@@PureGlide I don't quite understand. What happens after 2 minutes? To avoid missunderstandings: The setup I propose is as following: We use a rotor, that can be turned by the headwind. U have such a rotor on your glider, you use it to start the engine. Than we use an electric motor, that can produce a current when turned. Obvoisly we need an advanced battary management for that, but at the end of the day, that is just software. Than when we have a good termal lift, we take a dive recharge the battarie and reagain attitude with the lift. Thereby using the energy that is in one spot later in the day to help us out. Since this could be done multible times in one flight the same amount of capacity (or even less) could be way more usefull. You mentioned solar energy to recharge the batteries which sounds cool, too. But ma instinkt is, that when gliding, there is just more Energy in wind. Also, I would guess it is cheaper, than covering your glider in Solar cells, but I could be wrong about that since the prices of solar cells are falling quite a bit.
Gotchya! Depends which batteries we are talking about: we have avionics batteries (small) and some have electric propulsion (big batteries). Avionics batteries is what I thought you meant, that’s what people use solar panels for. Can’t really get enough solar to charge a propulsion battery, they are too big. And I thought you meant when I run my petrol engine I could charge my battery. That’s what I only use for 2 minutes. As for a RAT style generator, I guess it’s possible! You’d have to extract it, it would create drag, our glider speeds aren’t that fast so not sure it would be that useful compared to a jet. Also usually engines are used at the end of the day, when there isn’t any more option to find lift, so recharging it isn’t likely. Good idea though!
@@PureGlide obviously it creates drag, the energy needs to come from somewhere. So it only makes sens to do if you either can regain the Energy, or have to bleed it of anyway. I would Imagine with the option to recharge your battery mid flight one might alter the when the motor is used. Cashing in on some opportunities you might not otherwise. Also I guess when you selfstart, that takes a fair chunk out of the charge, making int a good Idea, to recharge somewhere in between that and the End of the day. About the amount of Energy, that can be gained by that: You are in a fairly good position to make some tests about this.
Almost all fires are from lithium Ion battery, LifePo4 is much safer. Yes it is more bulky, but safety is for me number 1.
Yip exactly!
Lithium Ion is the term used for all batteries in which lithium ions move from the negative electrode through an electrolyte to the positive electrode during discharge and back when charging.
LI-Ion batteries can have different cathodes including LifePo4, LiCoO
2, LiMn
2O4, Li2MnO3, LiNiMnCoO
2, LiNiCoAlO2... Each have a charging regime with different minimum and maximum voltages.
LiPo batteries use a gel electrolyte rather than liquid.
previously
Just before my IPhone battery swelled I noticed a sweet smell, like strawberries, coming from the phone. This may also be detectable in a glider. If you notice unusual smells, check out the batteries?
Great point!
People don't use Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries anymore? My 3rd Gen Prius still uses NiMH cells so its not like the chemistry is completely deprecated, it's just not *cool.*
Hi it’s just the energy density is so low compared to lithium I suspect!
@@PureGlide Yes, obviously, but if you rewatch your own video you have to ask yourself if a component, such as lithium batteries, with such a badly skewed risk to consequence ratio have any place in aviation.
One cell with an invisible fault and your whole battery pack catches fire and you risk serious injury, death, or destruction of your aircraft. That does not sound like something I want.
My larger point is that the electro-mania that is sweeping the culture we are being induced/seduced to accept a battery technology that comes with significant problems at every level while better, greener technologies are still in the laboratory.
to be fair... I would expect gliders to have battery compartments with an emergency dump ..
when smoke
or heat
pull big lever
Bombs awaaaaay
obviously you try not to dump over houses.
whats the deal with the colors in the hats????
The colours are a sunset over the ocean, and were the closest I could get to the logo colours. How come? Would you like something more simple?
Did you say Audis like the car?
Yeah I’m a weirdo I know
You fail to mention these incidents happened over 5 years ago and since then battery technology (particularly battery monitoring) has moved on, and certification standards for electric powered aircraft are a lot higher - indeed Luka at LZDesign who make the FES system has put a lot of work into making the system as 'foolproof' as possible, as have most manufacturers using electric power............. can you cite any incidents in the last 2-3 years of a 'battery fire' in a sailplane?
Hi yeah that is a great point. I did think about mentioning that these accidents have improved safety on these systems, thanks to the recommendations from the reports, but I just can't cover everything, the videos get too long. So thanks for bringing it up. And agreed, safety around these systems is improving every year. Cheers!
I think there's a lot of FUD around this subject. These are black swan events similar to those seen with modern electric cars. I am not aware of any inflight fires in gliders and there's a lot of other stuff that can get you before you'll deal with an inflight fire. Hopefully I am not proven wrong because I just put in an order for a JS3 RES :-)
Yeah well that fire in NZ was a fatal accident caused directly from an inflight glider fire. So definitely possible. And for small electronics it’s just a matter of time… I think you’ll be fine with your JS3 Fes, I’d fly one happily!!
I found a few more glider battery fire incidents:
www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-hph-glasflugel-304-es-g-gsgs
www.atsb.gov.au/media/5777185/ao-2018-009_final.pdf
I can toss the cell phone out the window... it's electric powered vehicles with internal batteries that scare me... that's a big fire a d you can't toss it out the window
At 7:08 it mentions not charging below zero degrees. I assume this is zero Centigrade (freezing point of water) and not Fahrenheit. My $0.02.
Yip exactly, I did say "below freezing" in the video for that reason :)
If it's just a little battery to run electronics and not a motor, I'd rather just stick with the little agm. The weight difference is nothing. Look at the weigh of water in the wings, the weight of your drinking water - did you go to the toilet before the flight??? what did that weigh and then the WEIGHT OF THE RISK/WORRY FACTOR! To hell with this crap, agm would give me great piece of mind and a white plastic shield [ cut down ice cream container etc ] for the top and back of the phone/tablet where the sun hits it - easy and job done.
We do use Lithium iron phosphate in the glider just because of the steady voltage and capacity. It’s not about weight, but space to fit a battery. And the fact we can use over 50% of the battery.
@@PureGlide Fair call, but even if you have two little ones or one larger, still not large and maybe solar and the risk/danger is gone. I thought they were behind the seat.
Haircut needed 🙂
Done!
𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙢𝙤𝙨𝙢
"Audi's"? Sorry, I don't understand.
Welcome to New Zealund
@@PureGlide I'm a kiwi, and I also have no idea what you were saying there.
Haha 😂 are you a glider pilot? An Oudie is the common flight computer we use, basically like a cell phone with a big battery. I pronounce it Like “loudly” but I think people overseas say oodie like “moody”. Hope that helps!
Yeah, I was wondering how to get my A4 in the cockpit! I had absolutely no idea what was meant. Besides, an Android phone running XCSoar is in my experience much more reliable.
Meanwhile when I considered the advantages and dangers of Lithium a couple of years ago I decided to stay with lead-acid, even though I still have my phone batteries to worry about.