Denon hd 8/100 were first class, are first class. Putting aside time and changing tech. the quality is superior even to tdk sax. I'm glad i experienced the moments in time, the players, amps and speakers of the day, they are undoubtedly classic, forever.
Yeah. Sometimes I think I should do that, digitise the recording off the tape, then release that version with the natural tape properties as part of the sound.
I bought a batch of HD8s back in the 1980s and you're right about the quality of the Denon tapes. In particular, I dubbed The Allman Bros. Live @ The Fillmore East from vinyl that still sounds incredibly good. I also have some HD7s that are great tapes. I've been mostly a TDK SA/SA-X or Maxell UDXLS II guy but your RUclips channel is a really appreciated as it has helped me revive my interest in other analog sources besides vinyl and the variety of tapes you cover is a great reference resource. Thanks and keep producing these fun and informative videos.
I love the "analog" sound, and often record on cassettes from digital sources. I have found Denon chrome cassettes in general, as well as the Maxell XLII-S, and TDK SA-X, are the best.
totally agree, for 2020 I've started recording HiRes albums from Tidal to Type II cassettes. After printing nice j-cards it feels like I've purchased an analog version of a new release. And they sound so much better to my ears.
Except that it cannot calibrate some ferro-cobalt tapes as it’s a European manufacturer. (As Tony found out on one of his video’s) Also the Dragon/ZX-9 look far better.
Back in the 90's I had some Denon cassettes. I even had metal tapes. Bought them from a hifi shop, can't remember the prices, but they weren't cheap. Haven't seen them in years, but I don't think I would have thrown them away, so they might pop up some day.
Ah, I’m not the only one I see. I bought a bunch of Denon HD8 cassettes from your preferred era and man, these things are good! Looking for more every day!
That Revox is somewhat better than the Amstrad deck in the sixth year area of my school in the 1980s. Seriously though, another splendid video. Denon tapes were very rare, but from what you've demonstrated they were excellent. Nice snappy record there.
Great video, fan of the HD8 since 1989 when I bought my Nakamichi in a high end shop. They advised the internal calibration on HD8 and so it was done. Still have the same Nak and the tapes from back then. Recently I bought a lot of barely used HD8 (25) on Ebay. 75 EURO + shipping costs. I found it a bargain. Enough.... What a cool machine, the Revox. Congrats with that purchase!
BTW Tony, the magnetic flux "0" level on the Revox B710 is at Dolby Level flux, so i assume this is the same for the B215. So you are modulating at about +7dB over the original "O VU" specification. (Just thought I'd mention it). Cheers.
I have a guy in his fifties that got a discount for buying denon cassettes after buying a denon dual well deck. He took the oppurtunity to buy the best, dx4 and hd8, when he bought it in 1988
Got turned on to Denon tapes after being a loyal TDK user for years and never went back. Wasn't available everywhere, but worth the search. Simple quality test: pop in any other blank tape and hit play. Notice the amount of hiss. Then pop in a Denon tape and notice a markedly LESS hiss in playback. No question, Denon was the cream of the crop!
Hey Tony, another great video - thanks for the demos. And nice Revox! On the note of Superferrics, I briefly exchanged emails with a rep at ATR who said they will be releasing what they’re calling a Super Ferric at the end of September. I mentioned to them that a competitor (NAC) had stated the same thing about their formula and it wasn’t quite to the standard of a Maxell UR. The rep insisted they were doing a lot of testing before release, so fingers crossed!
From 1910 until 1970..Denon was only producing professional audio-equipment..since than they also produced audio-equipment for Audio-lovers..(for the public..).That was the main reason why I bought a Denon DRM800A tapedeck back in 1990..My recordings on Maxell XL II's...where really awesome..better than CD..😉
I have two HD8, 75-minute tapes. Bought them new at a Hifi shop in 87 or 88. Yardbirds/Troggs on one of them Teenage Fanclub and Tobin Sprout on the other. They are truly great.
I really liked Denon and That's tapes. The Denon DX was some I had! I bought them from an outlet called Top Tape. I was a tape connoisseur as a teenager in the mid 80s!! The tune sounds Billy Currie-esque!
When I bought a used KX-800 deck, I also got a bunch of used cassettes with it. There were also various metal tapes in the box including a Denon HD-M/90. Discovering all this different cassettes was almost even more fun than getting the actual deck.
Great track, classy deck and I COMPLETELY agree regarding Denon cassettes. I have a crate full of HD8s, some HDMs and some DX series. I also have a a ten pack box of unopened HD8s. I've been into Denon cassettes since I first started using HD8s in the mid to late 80s. Oh, and you have a new subscriber!!
I remember Denon cassettes. I used to have a few HD7’s, but I have two HD8 and HD6, but just to keep in mind, DX5 was a ferric-chrome (Fe-Cr) cassette which is quite rare. I used to have one.
I found about half a dozen or so Denon hd8 sealed cassettes about 5 years at a local goodwill for under a dollar. I left one sealed and recorded on the rest of them. It's been a while since I have found any good high bias tapes in the goodwill much less any denon hd8. I would love to score some more for sure! Denon high bias cassettes are great!
same story. a friend picked up a sealed Denon Time Pack for me at the local Goodwill: a 3-pack of HD8s- each one in a different length- 75, 90, and 100 minutes. The sticker on the back reads: Housewares $ 0.50. money well spent.
Love Denon tapes. I still have a couple of DXM metals from the early 80s. I can date them since the recordings on them were made on a JVC KDA66 - one of the earliest computer calibration decks from 1981. Loved that deck. Of course I'm not at all envious of that mint Revox.... :)
Every single denon cassette screams quality...and I'm very lucky that i still found them at very low price...yes dx4 is superb and hd8 is a king...but for my musical taste i find hd6 very very good cassette...nice video...
I will just order now about 20 hd8 and 10 hd6 for 1,90€ each and post it to the fb page just to 'get in your nose' a bit...🤣🤣🤣...You make very nice videos by the way... keep educating those who like that 'hobby'
I really love your videos man. I was a kid in the 80's and 90's so all of this is like a trip down memory lane for me. I must admit though, I've never seen Denon cassettes sold in stores before, perhaps because they're so pricey as you said. If it were up to you would you like cassettes to make a full comeback or would you prefer it stay a novelty item as it is nowadays?
That's the thing about being human, everything has a cycle: what was new, becomes ordinary, becomes boring. I'm happy as it is, as they feel special now. When they were common, they weren't as special. Truth is that maybe I don't miss cassettes at all, I just miss who I was when I was using cassettes....
Lovely tune! I really hope you make a CD. Best electro/cosmic/pop rock I've heard in years! Heck, make a vinyl! Gatefold with loads of photos of the crew and maybe that cool Denon cassette on the cover! Full 80's design! Seriously! I hope you keep coming up with more of this cool, happy, music!
Every Denon I've ever come across was top-notch! I don't know of any "bad" ones they put out. They were great for studio dumps (and for the most part I've only really seen them used by other engineers).
I don't know if it's the deck or the tape, but I could not even hear a difference in level between the source and the recording. Fantastic. (that was for the first tape) (EDIT: I went back and listened again. Definitely not mistake. I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention the first time)
You really make me wanna get a deck, man! But I'm scared I won't be able to find the tapes too easily! I'd love to make mixtapes of my favorite LP's and CD'S! Wow man, that "denon" type 1 sounds very close to the source! I'm shocked!
II had a Fostex 4 track recorder back in 1986 - 1990. Made a lot of songs on that player, and mostly used Denon HD 8, but also some TDK SA’s. I found the Denon cassettes to be fantastic and I especially remember the smell of the new ones when I opened them…..aaah - wonderful! Still have them all. I’ve been working in the digital domain with Pro Tools for the last 20 + years, doing professional work, but I’ve recently even got me a ‘new’ Yamaha 4 track cassette recorder with dbx! Impressing sound quality! I just love cassettes!
There's something about the restrictions of early gear that forces you to make great music. I've often pondered going back to my Atari ST, a desk and a 4 track.
Recording to a high quality cassette as part of the mastering process seems like a way to take an electronic track and soften some of its edge and dynamics so that it has a period-correct sound for when cassettes and VHS were in heavy use.
Your old intro card at the beginning ☺☺ P.S. that weird late DX1 looks suspiciously like a GenMag, too! I wouldn't be surprised if it calibrated and recorded exactly the same as the General EHF. Got both (1x each) but can't test that theory out -- my S550S with auto cal is still in need in maintenance (yup, I'm a sad -- not really -- lazy guy 😜). P.P.S. Loved the sound of the DX4. No idea if I misheard something or not, but it appeared to add some "missing" meat in the lows without eating up the highs. The tape doesn't look very dark, too (that's the thing with DX4s if forums are to be believed), which may be the reason behind this sound signature 🙃 On the contrary, the HD8 sounded like it swallowed some highs (just a tiny bit muffled). Surely you can disregard all this because I didn't listen on a pair of KEFs or something, but on a Smart TV 😅 P.P.P.S. Oh that Revox is a keeper 👍 Not sure about it but I reckon being of the European breed, it can make ultra-low-bias Type 0.5s (=pre-IEC 1s, as in Philips, Certron, AudioMagnetics, some Agfa etc.) and chromes (the pickiest ones like Agfa and Philips) *really* sing. And some of those may be out of the Dragon's scope (again, not sure 😅) P.P.P.P.S. As for that hub guide, forget it -- Martin totally beat me to it 😂 Still, it'll be funny to see how in a decade span, **maybe** , more former industry affiliates from plastic molding and tape coating businesses show up on the Web, put a seal of approval on your theories and debunk the current "standards". Because it is all *indeed* pretty complicated. E.g. I'm still not sure who made tape for Goldstar. The pattern on the leader of some models reminds of SKC, or Saehan on others... the mystery won't give up easily 😂 (the fact they sound decent to great isn't a big mistery tho)
Yeah, like the FRI-Super, the DX4 doesn't look cobalt doped, just a deep brown. Yeah, the Revox can calibrate and do a great job with toughies like the Philips MCII. Not found a tape it can't handle yet.
Wow! That DX4 sounded better than the metal tape! Unless it had something to do with the fact that I listened to it through the mono speaker on my phone but it was clearly audible! The metal tape sounded like it was struggling with the higher frequencies.. I have a box of Denon DX tapes somewhere which are brand new unopened! From memory they have a blue wrapper like the HD6 but I don't think that it's what they are! I also have another Denon C'D01 74-N type 1 sealed new in a white wrapper, it doesn't have the usual made in Japan or the rest of the details that add to the speciality of Denon tapes, not sure what's inside but I will eventually get around to it...
In middle of 1980-ties sold a huge mount of DENON DX1/90 model in SU. I bought couple of sealed tapes in St. Petersburg and unfortunately sold these later. Reliable construction & excellent sound. I heard the positive descriptions from people only. Moreover, people presumpt the one of high grade soviet chemical factories made cassettes under license of DENON in west Siberia marked UZHK DX1/90. Licensed tapes had good quality also. I did not heard a negative worth. Now I do collect cassettes. As older as better for me. I take unsealed examples too. At the moment in my collection is over 20 pieces of DENON LX90. Good luck.
I need to dig it out to see which model but I have one Denon cassette that I recorded on about 20 years ago and it still sounds great. Like you, I love the build of it. I've only owned a few as they were generally out of my price range but sometimes Tower Records would put them on clearance. Even here in the US I very rarely come across Denon tapes.
Your right about the tapes, but am I am not going to pay what they want on eBay? Hell no! I don’t have that kind of money and all though I would love to find a Revox B215, I can’t afford that either. So I dream of winning the lottery and finding a dream deck in mint condition, fully updated and ready to land in my house. God help me for envying you for finding one of those decks. It’s better than winning the lottery Tony, it is nirvana on steroids! Bless you, you lucky bloak!😀😃😊Na, na, na, na, na, na!
I admit to wanting your Revox! I plead guilty to it! You lucky freaking bloak! I have wanted one for years and unless I win the lottery, that airplane has no chance getting off the ground! Enjoy it and please use it in your videos. At least I can lust after it with someone who I consider a great mate!👍🏻
I have several Denon tapes, all bought new when I was young... In the Netherlands they were easy to get in the 80's and 90's. I remember they were cheaper than the very popular TDK SA. TDK was seen as the best tape you can buy, so every one preferred TDK. I like the Denon tapes also, but I think some have a higher than average noise level. Most tapes I have are Sony's and even the tapes from late 70's still sound amazing. In the 90's I had a Sony TC-K555ES II and I mostly bought FeCr tapes. Lovely deck btw, that Revox! Did Revox made their own transport?
Oh yes! Denon DX1 cassettes were popular in Greece in late 90s & were the first cassettes i used..now regret i didn't get more of them as i got stuck in TDKs for no reason..i was a kid
@cassettecomeback What about DX7s? I picked up a lot of 50 of these used, can't find much info about them. They say High Position, but no mention of Type II or High Bias anywhere. I assume these are early chromiums before the HD series? I'm also a huge Denon fan.
wow Revox..Denon... cool stuff! What about Denon DXM? Those DXMs of the first gereration were both looking and sounding really cool. Not to mention my favourite typeIII Denon DX5. And then, together with HD8 and DX4, no other producer was ever offring so wide variety of high end tapes of ALL types (even nor Sony neither TDK). Happy to see your collection of tape decks is also growing)))
I picked up a couple boxes of HD6's and a couple boxes of HD7's from a local thrift store a decade ago. Still have 'em and now that I have an Aiwa XK-S9000, I wouldn't mind actually trying a few of these out.
I picked up a few Denon HD 4 (IIRC, they are 4) and 4 of those weird 70s Memorex tapes that use the C clamp style cases. Those cases are so much better. 99% of all tapes, no matter the cost, come in ridiculously cheap, flimsy cases that crack and break off at the hinge. Even the commercial releases shipped in the flimsiest of cases! You would think they would made the hinge part thicker and with better plastic.
Cassette Comeback 👍🏻 Following you on spotify now. Your tracks with Megan are also very nice, kinda reminds me of the Berlin based duo called The girl and the robot, same vibe, I like it a lot.
Cassette Comeback 👍🏻 I am really enjoying your video’s btw. I recently bought a 1980’s cassette deck on ebay just to digitalize some old cassettes I had, but quickly got addicted to tape again, so now I have 3 decks 😜 Two vintage ones just for the oldskool look with the analog vu meters and stuff and one Denon late 90’s deck with all the good stuff on it for proper recording, but I have learned alot about bias and eq thanks to your video’s, so thank you very much for that.
@Cassette Comback I vaguely remember Denon cassettes from back in the late 80s in the USA, however all levels of them were super expensive and the only place you could get them here in brick and mortar stores was in major metropolitan areas, or you had to mail order. I do remember seeing articles on them in the major Hi-Fi magazines giving high praise.
@Cassette Comeback What's a bit odd is that here in the USA even during that time we had what I would call middle market specialist stores which would offer better, but not best brands yet even there you wouldn't find them either. Kind of strange.
That's the problem with Denon tapes....lots for sale at very high prices, but nobody wants to use them because they're so expensive. They've become a commodity as opposed to an audio format or even a collectors item. In the long run, people don't end up keeping tapes they're never going to open when the temptation at a good selling price is there. Perhaps when the markets collapse, I'll buy a bunch of Denon tapes for my retirement fund. 😒🙄
The only Denon I have is metal HD-M 90. With two windows. I took a picture but can't paste it here.... I only like cassettes in metal tapes, but have only 3, replaced cassetes with DAT in 1992.
I picked up one of those 1987 HD8s (C-90) recently at a thrift and it's one of the best sounding and best looking tapes I own. I wish I had more of them, lol.
I'll give you this my Denon HD8 100 tapes definitely survived better over the years than my TDK HXS90s did but, for the first 4 years of their life those TDK HXS90 tapes sounded just a bit better and I'd always be able to get 6+ distortion free decibels out of those babies and I just can't say the same for my Denon HD8 100s(besides I always favored the 90min format over the 100min).
Great that you've got a Revox B215 Tony! Yes, those burks who ask "Dragon or Revox .... which is better?" etc etc. As if the other one is "inferior"!? ha ha I have an Aiwa AD-F770 and it too sounds great. A lot of this is in the mind. ;o) Enjoying your music and your videos mate. best regards BJ.
Nice ! Yeah they were fab. So they have a good storage life? I don't have many Denons because yes they were expensive in Canada, but not out of reach. They were widely available in HMV and other sound shops. Have never seen the DX1 style.
Tony, I really like your music, is there no where to listen to it or buy it? I remember buying this one you mentioned "Marathon" and the one you used in the Scotch High Energy video.
I have over 100 sealed cassettes and some are Denon I believe they are the normal bias. But they sound as just as good as a high bias depending on the quality of Cassette deck. My oldest find at a thrift store was several TDK DC-90 dated 1973 sealed. Not 100% if they are originals but are dated 1973. I found several 3 packs sealed for a few dollars.
I use to have a ton of Denon when I was younger. My uncle gave them to me when he moved to CDs. Had them for years. But, I slowly faded away from cassette and gave most of my lot away. Now I wish I didn't 😭
G’day love the channel I have a Denon twin deck with most of the functions your talking about, your right my whole System is Denon amplifier tuner, CD player and the twin deck I wonder how much it’s worth it’s like new regards John
There's a reason I set up a state of the art website and RUclips channel. Anyone would think I'm trying to be very visible when it comes to cassettes 😁
Denon was quite easy to find in major cities in the U.S. & their price was typically about the same as the TDK SA series...at least that's what I remember. I preferred the Denon HD series to even the Sony Metal Master in the ceramic shell that was stupid expensive @ $10/ea....the Denon HD series were 1/3 the price and sounded way better even when played in cheap gear. I typically used either Technics or TEAC back in the day. None of my decks had bias adjustment other than the deck auto selecting based on the notches in the top.
I laughed way too much at "That ain't for sale. Why? Because they're mine!" Sounds like a cartoon villain. I don't blame you though. Denon tapes are amazing. I have over 100 sealed Denon and I would never give mine up either.
Hi, Tony! As for DENON cassettes, I have one 1983 Denon DX-1 90 specially produced for Soviet Union market (among others, it has Russian labels in J-Card). DENON DX1 90 was one of many ferrics Soviet government purchased in 1983-1984 and the price for it was 9 Soviet roubles a piece, the same as other 90-minute imported ferrics. The tape is still pretty good. Also I have five DENON HD-M 100 Type IV tapes I purchased in Moscow back in 1996. These tapes are amazing, their recommended recording level is also about +8 dB. I am getting excellent results on these tapes with my current 1988 RAPRI 102 Soviet-made deck. This deck was one of the few Soviet-made decks capable of Type IV tape recording/ Another one that I know was Mayak-140. Also I used them before on KENWOOD KX-7060S, also results were excellent. What is interesting about DENON HD-M is that it says "METAL OXIDE FREE" on the shell. Do you know what could it mean?
OK, I'm listening to the 2nd cassette and it is very obvious when you are switching between the source and the recording. Are you sure there aren't any mistakes in the first one? On the second tape, there is no audible repeat of the last 1/4 second or so and absolutely no change in level. It was so smooth I though it was compensating for the change, but that is obviously not the case.
Denon and Teac were audio component makers and I always wonder if they did make their own tapes . ...Teac had their brand with removable reels in the case. I never had either one and Denon and Teac tape was never stocked in stores where I live in The US.
Yeah. TEAC I think were mostly made by others, but Denon made their own and are top notch. I don't remember seeing them in stores either, but I bought my cassettes mostly from chain stores in my youth.
Where's Denon LX, the staple of my teenage years? Originally in black shell, then in transparent, but with the same black slip sheet and big paper sticker.
I'm down to my last six sealed HD 8 oval window 92 variant, I love those tapes death I have about 6 in current use with my best of mixtapes, I will sell the last six... What are they actually worth?
I once had a green and pink denon type 1 cassette, dont know the name anymore, but they are pretty rare now. They also had something linke drinks painted on them.... But We have thrown them away like 10 yrs ago now. Im sad about this...
I wonder how much those head cleaning leaders really work? I have a lot of Maxell that say the same thing yet I clean my heads every two weeks or so anyways because let's face it... it's fun.
@@CassetteComeback Yea I believe at the time they were pricey. I wondered how they compare to Maxell MX and TDK MA-X. I like type II myself.. preferably Maxell XLII-S 1986.
Hi Tony, great video again. wish I had more Denin tapes then I have now.👌👌As I've mentioned before, I allso Use a Revox B215 and the pro version Studer A721. In an other room I still have a B710 MKII, which I currently took apart to clean and replace the capasitors aswell oiled the beautifull designed 4 motor tapedrive. It's again running like new. But my tip or question is, do you allso have the manual? This because you have 2 memory for type 1 cassettes 3 positions for type 2 and 1 for type 4. So when you use a type 2 cassette you don't need to align again every time. Keep on doing great video's. Furthermore I'm curious who's behind the voice? cause we never see you.🤷♂️🤷♂️
i used to get the HD-8 for $3.00 back a few years ago ,,now after finding this video ,,,I know why they shot up in value so quickly ,,,thanks bro ,,,I hate you and know who to blame now ...lol..jk ...sincerely however ,thanks for sharing your work ,,much appreciated .
I liked Denon cassettes, but at least with my equipment, they didn’t have that much to recommend them over, say, the TDK SA-X or HX-S, and they weren’t easy to find. I might give them a try again.
I have the 90 minute variant of the one at 10:20. It's got some recording by a completely unknown Canadian band on it. Would almost like to re-record over it but I'm all for preserving obscure music history. Paid a dollar for it. :)
@@CassetteComeback Yeah that would be a smart thing to do. I'd like to copy it over to another tape. But I don't really have very decent equipment that could do the duplication very well. Thanks for the suggestion. And wow that type 1 Denon blew my mind. :D
What can I say abut Denon tapes? In the more modern shells they are the absolute pinnacle of recordable tape. Regardless of type. End of!! If you ask me , @Tony, GBP 250 for a box of sealed HD8s is a good price. IF and only IF your deck can handle them. How many do I have? None sealed just now, but about 80 used ones. Do I have the DX1, DX4, HD6, HD6S , HD7, HD8, S-Port Metal and HD-Ms? Yes! And even one of those N1 Pioneers..Why? Because they are THAT good! Will I ever SELL a sealed Denon? No way! I´d rather be buried with them..
Hi Tony, could you tell me the name of the ebay seller that sold you the Revox. Looks to be in fine condition and a great find. I know you verbally said this, but could not understand exactly how its spelt. Cheers
![Gucci Mane & Sexyy Red - You Don't Love Me [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/j7IBqyFKT4c/mqdefault.jpg)
Denon hd 8/100 were first class, are first class. Putting aside time and changing tech. the quality is superior even to tdk sax. I'm glad i experienced the moments in time, the players, amps and speakers of the day, they are undoubtedly classic, forever.
Can you compare to type iv full metal?
Putting your own songs to tape always feels fulfilling
Yeah. Sometimes I think I should do that, digitise the recording off the tape, then release that version with the natural tape properties as part of the sound.
Love the smell of the late 80’s HD8’s! It’s like sniffing a box of crayons.
I bought a batch of HD8s back in the 1980s and you're right about the quality of the Denon tapes. In particular, I dubbed The Allman Bros. Live @ The Fillmore East from vinyl that still sounds incredibly good. I also have some HD7s that are great tapes. I've been mostly a TDK SA/SA-X or Maxell UDXLS II guy but your RUclips channel is a really appreciated as it has helped me revive my interest in other analog sources besides vinyl and the variety of tapes you cover is a great reference resource. Thanks and keep producing these fun and informative videos.
Glad you like them!
I love the "analog" sound, and often record on cassettes from digital sources. I have found Denon chrome cassettes in general, as well as the Maxell XLII-S, and TDK SA-X, are the best.
totally agree, for 2020 I've started recording HiRes albums from Tidal to Type II cassettes. After printing nice j-cards it feels like I've purchased an analog version of a new release. And they sound so much better to my ears.
Revox always equates with "professional" equipment in my mind.
Except that it cannot calibrate some ferro-cobalt tapes as it’s a European manufacturer. (As Tony found out on one of his video’s) Also the Dragon/ZX-9 look far better.
Back in the 90's I had some Denon cassettes. I even had metal tapes. Bought them from a hifi shop, can't remember the prices, but they weren't cheap. Haven't seen them in years, but I don't think I would have thrown them away, so they might pop up some day.
Ah, I’m not the only one I see. I bought a bunch of Denon HD8 cassettes from your preferred era and man, these things are good! Looking for more every day!
That Revox is somewhat better than the Amstrad deck in the sixth year area of my school in the 1980s. Seriously though, another splendid video. Denon tapes were very rare, but from what you've demonstrated they were excellent. Nice snappy record there.
Great video, fan of the HD8 since 1989 when I bought my Nakamichi in a high end shop. They advised the internal calibration on HD8 and so it was done. Still have the same Nak and the tapes from back then. Recently I bought a lot of barely used HD8 (25) on Ebay. 75 EURO + shipping costs. I found it a bargain. Enough.... What a cool machine, the Revox. Congrats with that purchase!
BTW Tony, the magnetic flux "0" level on the Revox B710 is at Dolby Level flux, so i assume this is the same for the B215. So you are modulating at about +7dB over the original "O VU" specification. (Just thought I'd mention it).
Cheers.
I have a guy in his fifties that got a discount for buying denon cassettes after buying a denon dual well deck. He took the oppurtunity to buy the best, dx4 and hd8, when he bought it in 1988
Got turned on to Denon tapes after being a loyal TDK user for years and never went back. Wasn't available everywhere, but worth the search. Simple quality test: pop in any other blank tape and hit play. Notice the amount of hiss. Then pop in a Denon tape and notice a markedly LESS hiss in playback. No question, Denon was the cream of the crop!
Plus, the fit and finish of those tapes just oozed quality and I never had any issues with any Denon tape I ever used.
Hey Tony, another great video - thanks for the demos. And nice Revox! On the note of Superferrics, I briefly exchanged emails with a rep at ATR who said they will be releasing what they’re calling a Super Ferric at the end of September. I mentioned to them that a competitor (NAC) had stated the same thing about their formula and it wasn’t quite to the standard of a Maxell UR. The rep insisted they were doing a lot of testing before release, so fingers crossed!
The proof is in the listening...
From 1910 until 1970..Denon was only producing professional audio-equipment..since than they also produced audio-equipment for Audio-lovers..(for the public..).That was the main reason why I bought a Denon DRM800A tapedeck back in 1990..My recordings on Maxell XL II's...where really awesome..better than CD..😉
I have two HD8, 75-minute tapes. Bought them new at a Hifi shop in 87 or 88. Yardbirds/Troggs on one of them Teenage Fanclub and Tobin Sprout on the other. They are truly great.
I really liked Denon and That's tapes. The Denon DX was some I had! I bought them from an outlet called Top Tape. I was a tape connoisseur as a teenager in the mid 80s!!
The tune sounds Billy Currie-esque!
When I bought a used KX-800 deck, I also got a bunch of used cassettes with it. There were also various metal tapes in the box including a Denon HD-M/90.
Discovering all this different cassettes was almost even more fun than getting the actual deck.
Thanks for the review on the Denon cassettes Tony, I would never have one to try for the price so now I got to see them.
Great track, classy deck and I COMPLETELY agree regarding Denon cassettes. I have a crate full of HD8s, some HDMs and some DX series. I also have a a ten pack box of unopened HD8s.
I've been into Denon cassettes since I first started using HD8s in the mid to late 80s.
Oh, and you have a new subscriber!!
I envy you. Didn't have them in the past and don't really have any now 😁
I remember Denon cassettes. I used to have a few HD7’s, but I have two HD8 and HD6, but just to keep in mind, DX5 was a ferric-chrome (Fe-Cr) cassette which is quite rare. I used to have one.
I found about half a dozen or so Denon hd8 sealed cassettes about 5 years at a local goodwill for under a dollar.
I left one sealed and recorded on the rest of them. It's been a while since I have found any good high bias tapes in the goodwill much less any denon hd8. I would love to score some more for sure!
Denon high bias cassettes are great!
same story. a friend picked up a sealed Denon Time Pack for me at the local Goodwill: a 3-pack of HD8s- each one in a different length- 75, 90, and 100 minutes. The sticker on the back reads: Housewares $ 0.50. money well spent.
Proud owner of Marantz here. Great show, Sir!
Love Denon tapes. I still have a couple of DXM metals from the early 80s. I can date them since the recordings on them were made on a JVC KDA66 - one of the earliest computer calibration decks from 1981. Loved that deck. Of course I'm not at all envious of that mint Revox.... :)
When Denon C-75's appeared it was a prayer answered... the best length for recording two vinyl albums, one album on each side.
Every single denon cassette screams quality...and I'm very lucky that i still found them at very low price...yes dx4 is superb and hd8 is a king...but for my musical taste i find hd6 very very good cassette...nice video...
Yeah, they're all superb... especially at the prices you get them at 😉
I will just order now about 20 hd8 and 10 hd6 for 1,90€ each and post it to the fb page just to 'get in your nose' a bit...🤣🤣🤣...You make very nice videos by the way... keep educating those who like that 'hobby'
I really love your videos man. I was a kid in the 80's and 90's so all of this is like a trip down memory lane for me. I must admit though, I've never seen Denon cassettes sold in stores before, perhaps because they're so pricey as you said. If it were up to you would you like cassettes to make a full comeback or would you prefer it stay a novelty item as it is nowadays?
That's the thing about being human, everything has a cycle: what was new, becomes ordinary, becomes boring. I'm happy as it is, as they feel special now. When they were common, they weren't as special. Truth is that maybe I don't miss cassettes at all, I just miss who I was when I was using cassettes....
Lovely tune! I really hope you make a CD. Best electro/cosmic/pop rock I've heard in years! Heck, make a vinyl! Gatefold with loads of photos of the crew and maybe that cool Denon cassette on the cover! Full 80's design! Seriously! I hope you keep coming up with more of this cool, happy, music!
I have a new band being formed. There will be more...
Every Denon I've ever come across was top-notch! I don't know of any "bad" ones they put out. They were great for studio dumps (and for the most part I've only really seen them used by other engineers).
I don't know if it's the deck or the tape, but I could not even hear a difference in level between the source and the recording. Fantastic. (that was for the first tape)
(EDIT: I went back and listened again. Definitely not mistake. I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention the first time)
You really make me wanna get a deck, man! But I'm scared I won't be able to find the tapes too easily! I'd love to make mixtapes of my favorite LP's and CD'S! Wow man, that "denon" type 1 sounds very close to the source! I'm shocked!
II had a Fostex 4 track recorder back in 1986 - 1990. Made a lot of songs on that player, and mostly used Denon HD 8, but also some TDK SA’s. I found the Denon cassettes to be fantastic and I especially remember the smell of the new ones when I opened them…..aaah - wonderful! Still have them all. I’ve been working in the digital domain with Pro Tools for the last 20 + years, doing professional work, but I’ve recently even got me a ‘new’ Yamaha 4 track cassette recorder with dbx! Impressing sound quality! I just love cassettes!
There's something about the restrictions of early gear that forces you to make great music. I've often pondered going back to my Atari ST, a desk and a 4 track.
Recording to a high quality cassette as part of the mastering process seems like a way to take an electronic track and soften some of its edge and dynamics so that it has a period-correct sound for when cassettes and VHS were in heavy use.
Denon produced a K7 line for JVC in the early 80s. 'Twas the best line of JVC branded K7s.
Your old intro card at the beginning ☺☺
P.S. that weird late DX1 looks suspiciously like a GenMag, too! I wouldn't be surprised if it calibrated and recorded exactly the same as the General EHF. Got both (1x each) but can't test that theory out -- my S550S with auto cal is still in need in maintenance (yup, I'm a sad -- not really -- lazy guy 😜).
P.P.S. Loved the sound of the DX4. No idea if I misheard something or not, but it appeared to add some "missing" meat in the lows without eating up the highs. The tape doesn't look very dark, too (that's the thing with DX4s if forums are to be believed), which may be the reason behind this sound signature 🙃 On the contrary, the HD8 sounded like it swallowed some highs (just a tiny bit muffled). Surely you can disregard all this because I didn't listen on a pair of KEFs or something, but on a Smart TV 😅
P.P.P.S. Oh that Revox is a keeper 👍 Not sure about it but I reckon being of the European breed, it can make ultra-low-bias Type 0.5s (=pre-IEC 1s, as in Philips, Certron, AudioMagnetics, some Agfa etc.) and chromes (the pickiest ones like Agfa and Philips) *really* sing. And some of those may be out of the Dragon's scope (again, not sure 😅)
P.P.P.P.S. As for that hub guide, forget it -- Martin totally beat me to it 😂 Still, it'll be funny to see how in a decade span, **maybe** , more former industry affiliates from plastic molding and tape coating businesses show up on the Web, put a seal of approval on your theories and debunk the current "standards". Because it is all *indeed* pretty complicated. E.g. I'm still not sure who made tape for Goldstar. The pattern on the leader of some models reminds of SKC, or Saehan on others... the mystery won't give up easily 😂 (the fact they sound decent to great isn't a big mistery tho)
Yeah, like the FRI-Super, the DX4 doesn't look cobalt doped, just a deep brown. Yeah, the Revox can calibrate and do a great job with toughies like the Philips MCII. Not found a tape it can't handle yet.
I have a 1990 Denon Sport 100 i got from a cassette lot on ebay. I recorded over it and it is indeed great for CDs
Dude,your music is so amazing 😉,and the HD8 sounds Fantastic,I want one or 2🎶🎶
Wow! That DX4 sounded better than the metal tape! Unless it had something to do with the fact that I listened to it through the mono speaker on my phone but it was clearly audible! The metal tape sounded like it was struggling with the higher frequencies.. I have a box of Denon DX tapes somewhere which are brand new unopened! From memory they have a blue wrapper like the HD6 but I don't think that it's what they are! I also have another Denon C'D01 74-N type 1 sealed new in a white wrapper, it doesn't have the usual made in Japan or the rest of the details that add to the speciality of Denon tapes, not sure what's inside but I will eventually get around to it...
In middle of 1980-ties sold a huge mount of DENON DX1/90 model in SU. I bought couple of sealed tapes in St. Petersburg and unfortunately sold these later.
Reliable construction & excellent sound. I heard the positive descriptions from people only. Moreover, people presumpt the one of high grade soviet chemical factories made cassettes under license of DENON in west Siberia marked UZHK DX1/90. Licensed tapes had good quality also. I did not heard a negative worth.
Now I do collect cassettes. As older as better for me. I take unsealed examples too. At the moment in my collection is over 20 pieces of DENON LX90. Good luck.
I need to dig it out to see which model but I have one Denon cassette that I recorded on about 20 years ago and it still sounds great. Like you, I love the build of it. I've only owned a few as they were generally out of my price range but sometimes Tower Records would put them on clearance. Even here in the US I very rarely come across Denon tapes.
Your right about the tapes, but am I am not going to pay what they want on eBay? Hell no! I don’t have that kind of money and all though I would love to find a Revox B215, I can’t afford that either. So I dream of winning the lottery and finding a dream deck in mint condition, fully updated and ready to land in my house. God help me for envying you for finding one of those decks. It’s better than winning the lottery Tony, it is nirvana on steroids! Bless you, you lucky bloak!😀😃😊Na, na, na, na, na, na!
Money you enjoyed wasting, was never wasted 😉
I admit to wanting your Revox! I plead guilty to it! You lucky freaking bloak! I have wanted one for years and unless I win the lottery, that airplane has no chance getting off the ground! Enjoy it and please use it in your videos. At least I can lust after it with someone who I consider a great mate!👍🏻
I have several Denon tapes, all bought new when I was young... In the Netherlands they were easy to get in the 80's and 90's. I remember they were cheaper than the very popular TDK SA. TDK was seen as the best tape you can buy, so every one preferred TDK. I like the Denon tapes also, but I think some have a higher than average noise level. Most tapes I have are Sony's and even the tapes from late 70's still sound amazing. In the 90's I had a Sony TC-K555ES II and I mostly bought FeCr tapes.
Lovely deck btw, that Revox! Did Revox made their own transport?
Yeah they did. There's no belts. It's a 4 motor Direct Drive.
Oh yes! Denon DX1 cassettes were popular in Greece in late 90s & were the first cassettes i used..now regret i didn't get more of them as i got stuck in TDKs for no reason..i was a kid
Childhood wouldn't be as magical without the innocence...but I would have bought more Denon 😀
@cassettecomeback What about DX7s? I picked up a lot of 50 of these used, can't find much info about them. They say High Position, but no mention of Type II or High Bias anywhere. I assume these are early chromiums before the HD series? I'm also a huge Denon fan.
Hey , Thank you , I am Impressed , I Love Cassettes too :) QC
wow Revox..Denon... cool stuff! What about Denon DXM? Those DXMs of the first gereration were both looking and sounding really cool. Not to mention my favourite typeIII Denon DX5. And then, together with HD8 and DX4, no other producer was ever offring so wide variety of high end tapes of ALL types (even nor Sony neither TDK). Happy to see your collection of tape decks is also growing)))
They're hard for me to get as it is. Never seen the older stuff here in the UK.
I picked up a couple boxes of HD6's and a couple boxes of HD7's from a local thrift store a decade ago. Still have 'em and now that I have an Aiwa XK-S9000, I wouldn't mind actually trying a few of these out.
I picked up a few Denon HD 4 (IIRC, they are 4) and 4 of those weird 70s Memorex tapes that use the C clamp style cases. Those cases are so much better. 99% of all tapes, no matter the cost, come in ridiculously cheap, flimsy cases that crack and break off at the hinge. Even the commercial releases shipped in the flimsiest of cases! You would think they would made the hinge part thicker and with better plastic.
Man I absolutely dig your track Marathon! 👍🏻
It's on all good streaming platforms from Villarosso
Cassette Comeback 👍🏻 Following you on spotify now. Your tracks with Megan are also very nice, kinda reminds me of the Berlin based duo called The girl and the robot, same vibe, I like it a lot.
Never heard of them, I'll check them out.
Cassette Comeback 👍🏻 I am really enjoying your video’s btw. I recently bought a 1980’s cassette deck on ebay just to digitalize some old cassettes I had, but quickly got addicted to tape again, so now I have 3 decks 😜 Two vintage ones just for the oldskool look with the analog vu meters and stuff and one Denon late 90’s deck with all the good stuff on it for proper recording, but I have learned alot about bias and eq thanks to your video’s, so thank you very much for that.
@Cassette Comback
I vaguely remember Denon cassettes from back in the late 80s in the USA, however all levels of them were super expensive and the only place you could get them here in brick and mortar stores was in major metropolitan areas, or you had to mail order. I do remember seeing articles on them in the major Hi-Fi magazines giving high praise.
Yeah. Like they didn't want to mingle with the others in 10 packs on the shelf in chain stores.
@Cassette Comeback
What's a bit odd is that here in the USA even during that time we had what I would call middle market specialist stores which would offer better, but not best brands yet even there you wouldn't find them either. Kind of strange.
That's the problem with Denon tapes....lots for sale at very high prices, but nobody wants to use them because they're so expensive. They've become a commodity as opposed to an audio format or even a collectors item. In the long run, people don't end up keeping tapes they're never going to open when the temptation at a good selling price is there. Perhaps when the markets collapse, I'll buy a bunch of Denon tapes for my retirement fund. 😒🙄
The only Denon I have is metal HD-M 90.
With two windows.
I took a picture but can't paste it here....
I only like cassettes in metal tapes, but have only 3, replaced cassetes with DAT in 1992.
WOW!!!....A REVOX!!!! I haven't seen a ReVox cassette deck in I don't know how long!! Mid-to-late 1980s!!
Me grandfather aslo has a Revox so when i go to he I see it all the time 😊😊
I picked up one of those 1987 HD8s (C-90) recently at a thrift and it's one of the best sounding and best looking tapes I own. I wish I had more of them, lol.
I'll give you this my Denon HD8 100 tapes definitely survived better over the years than my TDK HXS90s did but, for the first 4 years of their life those TDK HXS90 tapes sounded just a bit better and I'd always be able to get 6+ distortion free decibels out of those babies and I just can't say the same for my Denon HD8 100s(besides I always favored the 90min format over the 100min).
Great that you've got a Revox B215 Tony!
Yes, those burks who ask "Dragon or Revox .... which is better?" etc etc. As if the other one is "inferior"!? ha ha
I have an Aiwa AD-F770 and it too sounds great. A lot of this is in the mind. ;o)
Enjoying your music and your videos mate.
best regards
BJ.
I've got an Aiwa AD-S950 underneath it. Love that deck. Blind listening, couldn't tell you which is which. Perception is more important than reality.
Which is better? Tandberg...
I din't find any Denon from my collection, but one Pioneer N1-90. Now I know that denon made that =)
I got some of those tapes for Christmas of 1993!
Nice ! Yeah they were fab. So they have a good storage life? I don't have many Denons because yes they were expensive in Canada, but not out of reach. They were widely available in HMV and other sound shops. Have never seen the DX1 style.
The ones I got used have held up well...but then again all it needs in a knackered decks and all cassettes become toast.
Tony, I really like your music, is there no where to listen to it or buy it? I remember buying this one you mentioned "Marathon" and the one you used in the Scotch High Energy video.
There was...years ago, but not any more.
yes i remember back in the day when i heard about these. were expensive. so i didnt bother.
were being sold by high end audio shops.
I guess it's "Rolex syndrome" restrict supply and have a high price to maximize profits.
Ooh I like those black watch 4040s. Got some 74 and 100s.
I have over 100 sealed cassettes and some are Denon I believe they are the normal bias. But they sound as just as good as a high bias depending on the quality of Cassette deck. My oldest find at a thrift store was several TDK DC-90 dated 1973 sealed. Not 100% if they are originals but are dated 1973. I found several 3 packs sealed for a few dollars.
I use to have a ton of Denon when I was younger. My uncle gave them to me when he moved to CDs. Had them for years. But, I slowly faded away from cassette and gave most of my lot away. Now I wish I didn't 😭
We've all been there...
G’day love the channel I have a Denon twin deck with most of the functions your talking about, your right my whole System is Denon amplifier tuner, CD player and the twin deck I wonder how much it’s worth it’s like new regards John
DENON made some very GOOD Cassettes!! I still OWN a Denon Double PRecision CAssette deck with the Bias Calibration Option. DENON was cool!!! ^_^
Hi, I liked your videos so far. I wonder if you could make videos about tape head wears/does the type of cassette affect wear speed?
Very good work where do you find all these unused cassettes ;
There's a reason I set up a state of the art website and RUclips channel. Anyone would think I'm trying to be very visible when it comes to cassettes 😁
Awesome cassettes, deck, song and video!
Denon was quite easy to find in major cities in the U.S. & their price was typically about the same as the TDK SA series...at least that's what I remember. I preferred the Denon HD series to even the Sony Metal Master in the ceramic shell that was stupid expensive @ $10/ea....the Denon HD series were 1/3 the price and sounded way better even when played in cheap gear. I typically used either Technics or TEAC back in the day. None of my decks had bias adjustment other than the deck auto selecting based on the notches in the top.
I laughed way too much at "That ain't for sale. Why? Because they're mine!" Sounds like a cartoon villain. I don't blame you though. Denon tapes are amazing. I have over 100 sealed Denon and I would never give mine up either.
Muuuwhahahahaha *Strokes his cat*
I only have a few HD8's still sealed. My favorites, those and my Triad MG-X's
I love love love that cassette deck!
You missed the best Denon cassette of all....The MG-X Metal! A true heavyweight.
I bought 4 of these back in the day. I paid $15 for a two pack in the 90s.
.
Superb Quality , As always.
Hi, Tony! As for DENON cassettes, I have one 1983 Denon DX-1 90 specially produced for Soviet Union market (among others, it has Russian labels in J-Card). DENON DX1 90 was one of many ferrics Soviet government purchased in 1983-1984 and the price for it was 9 Soviet roubles a piece, the same as other 90-minute imported ferrics. The tape is still pretty good. Also I have five DENON HD-M 100 Type IV tapes I purchased in Moscow back in 1996. These tapes are amazing, their recommended recording level is also about +8 dB. I am getting excellent results on these tapes with my current 1988 RAPRI 102 Soviet-made deck. This deck was one of the few Soviet-made decks capable of Type IV tape recording/ Another one that I know was Mayak-140. Also I used them before on KENWOOD KX-7060S, also results were excellent. What is interesting about DENON HD-M is that it says "METAL OXIDE FREE" on the shell. Do you know what could it mean?
I had a Denon CD-Jack type 4 tape, the first time I used it my Technics deck chewed it up. I've just upgraded to a Nak DR-10.
OK, I'm listening to the 2nd cassette and it is very obvious when you are switching between the source and the recording. Are you sure there aren't any mistakes in the first one? On the second tape, there is no audible repeat of the last 1/4 second or so and absolutely no change in level. It was so smooth I though it was compensating for the change, but that is obviously not the case.
Got to agree, Tony - Denon and That's were the best cassettes I ever used.
All about Pioneer tapes?
Denon and Teac were audio component makers and I always wonder if they did make their own tapes . ...Teac had their brand with removable reels in the case. I never had either one and Denon and Teac tape was never stocked in stores where I live in The US.
Yeah. TEAC I think were mostly made by others, but Denon made their own and are top notch. I don't remember seeing them in stores either, but I bought my cassettes mostly from chain stores in my youth.
Where's Denon LX, the staple of my teenage years? Originally in black shell, then in transparent, but with the same black slip sheet and big paper sticker.
I'm down to my last six sealed HD 8 oval window 92 variant, I love those tapes death I have about 6 in current use with my best of mixtapes, I will sell the last six... What are they actually worth?
I once had a green and pink denon type 1 cassette, dont know the name anymore, but they are pretty rare now. They also had something linke drinks painted on them.... But We have thrown them away like 10 yrs ago now. Im sad about this...
I wonder how much those head cleaning leaders really work? I have a lot of Maxell that say the same thing yet I clean my heads every two weeks or so anyways because let's face it... it's fun.
I don't know, as I clean my heads regularly, like yourself, anyway.
I bought 2 Denon HD 8 for $5, I like the sound. It can handle around +5dB nakamichi scale. I hope I can find something like this
What an amazing looking Revox deck- makes my Yamaha KX580 look dull.Great review though. Were you a pro- musician or sound engineer in a past life?
No. Just an enthusiastic amateur.
Thanks - must confess i did wonder based on some of your content.
Tony, no MG-X? Man those are great.. would like to see how it would bias, I don't have a 3-head only automatic calibration.
So rare and expensive over here. Since I'm not a massive Type 4 fan, I've never bothered trying to get one.
@@CassetteComeback Yea I believe at the time they were pricey. I wondered how they compare to Maxell MX and TDK MA-X. I like type II myself.. preferably Maxell XLII-S 1986.
Hi Tony, great video again. wish I had more Denin tapes then I have now.👌👌As I've mentioned before, I allso Use a Revox B215 and the pro version Studer A721. In an other room I still have a B710 MKII, which I currently took apart to clean and replace the capasitors aswell oiled the beautifull designed 4 motor tapedrive. It's again running like new. But my tip or question is, do you allso have the manual? This because you have 2 memory for type 1 cassettes 3 positions for type 2 and 1 for type 4. So when you use a type 2 cassette you don't need to align again every time.
Keep on doing great video's. Furthermore I'm curious who's behind the voice? cause we never see you.🤷♂️🤷♂️
If you want to see me in all my horror...ruclips.net/video/bYngjS-K3vg/видео.html
@@CassetteComeback Very scary Tony 🤣🤣
Forgat to ask if you have the manual.
Cracking Tune Tony 👍
Your review was great.😃👍
i used to get the HD-8 for $3.00 back a few years ago ,,now after finding this video ,,,I know why they shot up in value so quickly ,,,thanks bro ,,,I hate you and know who to blame now ...lol..jk ...sincerely however ,thanks for sharing your work ,,much appreciated .
I liked Denon cassettes, but at least with my equipment, they didn’t have that much to recommend them over, say, the TDK SA-X or HX-S, and they weren’t easy to find. I might give them a try again.
You're taking top class TDK there. Liking Denons over those is based on preference as opposed to actual sonic differences.
Although I'm familiar with Denon,I haven't personally come across them.
I have the 90 minute variant of the one at 10:20. It's got some recording by a completely unknown Canadian band on it. Would almost like to re-record over it but I'm all for preserving obscure music history. Paid a dollar for it. :)
Copy it or digitise it.
@@CassetteComeback Yeah that would be a smart thing to do. I'd like to copy it over to another tape. But I don't really have very decent equipment that could do the duplication very well. Thanks for the suggestion. And wow that type 1 Denon blew my mind. :D
The DXR is a beauty
What can I say abut Denon tapes? In the more modern shells they are the absolute pinnacle of recordable tape. Regardless of type. End of!! If you ask me , @Tony, GBP 250 for a box of sealed HD8s is a good price. IF and only IF your deck can handle them. How many do I have? None sealed just now, but about 80 used ones. Do I have the DX1, DX4, HD6, HD6S , HD7, HD8, S-Port Metal and HD-Ms? Yes! And even one of those N1 Pioneers..Why? Because they are THAT good! Will I ever SELL a sealed Denon? No way! I´d rather be buried with them..
My metal cassettes are this brand and they are pretty great.
Hi Tony, could you tell me the name of the ebay seller that sold you the Revox. Looks to be in fine condition and a great find. I know you verbally said this, but could not understand exactly how its spelt. Cheers
ebay.co.uk/usr/ollehifis
Anyone knows about tape length on Denon DXM 60? If you have any experience with them and knows if their is an extra minute or two on these?