Dan Vogel, I do appreciate your work. I've been a member of the church for over 50 years and had to have my name removed because it became so toxic & controlling. You have given me a better perspective on Joseph Smith's sickness. Thank you!
God bless you, , I really appreciate Dan sharing his years of experience with all of us,,it's amazing how much he has studied Joseph Smith,,,and he is spot on with his info, I pray that God has blessed Dan and his family
I am just now seeing these videos. What a wonderful compilation of *everything* that was recorded of the beginning of the church. THESE are the videos that should be shown to all who want to learn of the church.
I absolutely love the missionaries, they are some of my favorite people in the world right now. We have the best conversations, my family absolutely loves them as well. They are intelligent and well rounded individuals with great moral fortitude... their service has inspired me to be more active in my own service to humanity..... With that said... they asked me to read the Book of Mormon and I did. It has got to be one of the worst books I’ve ever read! It was frustratingly repetitive, horribly simple minded and the only bearable parts were plagiarized from the Bible. My ten year old tells better stories. It made me want to hide my face in a hat too. But I don’t hold it against the LDS at all! Most of western society participates in the most disgusting cult practices I have ever witnessed. Reality TV, fractional reserve banking, politics. There are far too many too mention. We have all been conned! We perpetuate a system that is completely destructive to the ecosystem all known life operates within. But I do enjoy the kjv. It is a riveting and engaging script.
Badly Drawn I encourage you to write your own scripture and start your own religion I look forward to hearing how far you can take this with your magic writing skills
NightmareEntity I’ve written some scripture in my day... I’m having trouble finding investors to back it.... it’s called “ Common sense, the ancient art of balanced intention” You would think the book would sell itself! Maybe I need a martyr? George Carlin maybe?
Badly Drawn isn’t that the comedian? One of my friends died with a heart attack not so long ago so I don’t you to try and prove to me there is no afterlife because common sense says so, life is cruel enough as it is
NightmareEntity I believe in life everlasting. It is more than obvious to me that there is a designer. And that everything is connected by one source. That is all a person can know for sure in my opinion. Everything else is hearsay. I love reading all spiritual text though. I just didn’t enjoy the BOM. Because it was just bad... I’m now reading Doctrines and Covenants, It’s a fun read because of how hilarious it is. D&C was obviously written to try and explain all the obvious deceptive behavior, convenient miracles, and also to establish himself as a great “profit” by using god as a character witness. Same as every other “profit” it’s all ego. There are no “profits” just people who understand cause and effect, entropy, social systems, ebb and flow. They ballpark some numbers and wrap it in allegory... most of these “profits” are like a clock who’s hands are stuck in place. They are gonna be right twice a day.
Badly Drawn I haven’t read the full doctrine and Covenants but some of it is really good thanks for sharing you option and sorry if I was rude the Book of Mormon inspires a lot of people no book of scripture is perfect
If you are intrigued by joe smith there is sn exellent biography by fawn brodie a relative of david mckay a later church president. She won many awards and accolades for her diligent work and in depth reseach on this book. It is tittled " No Man Knows My History" which was taken from a statement he made in a candid moment when he spoke of himself while delivering a eulogy at a funeral known as The King Follet discource. This was the name of the man being euligized. An exellent insight into joe smith, his life , experiences , and personality. You cant help find him an interesting individual who had the ability to get back up everytime he was knocked down. A very intetesting and thorough look at one of the centurys most interesting characters. I believe the church itself has heartburn over this book and Mrs Brodie was tossed from membership for publishing this deeply researched work to the dismay of many. A great piece of historical diligance snd solid resesrch. Attention keeping and a great read.
I would not be surprised if the tin plates prop is still buried somewhere in the woods near the Smith home. Smith would have had to get rid of it, but he could not simply burn it like a book.
I have the golden tablets of Moroni...... I hid them in a secret vault in a restaurant named Impala located in NW Portland , Oregon...... True Story ( I even wrote it all down so people know I be True in Word / Speech and DEED / Action)- FOREVER & FOREVER & FOREVER + AMEN AMEN AMEN 👼🙏🔥🙏🏳️🌈 🕊️👍 🔥😇🌈😸🕊️👼🔥🙏🔥🙏
Thanks for this, Mr. Vogel! Another great presentation from you! I always wondered what people felt through the cloth when they handled the plates (obviously it was not gold). You show that JS easily had the means to make the plates himself with little cost.
We know we're dealing with a fraud when he tells us that he made a wonderful discovery but the deity has instructed him not to allow anyone else to examine it. That kind of a "discovery" is indistinguishable from a non-discovery!
Yes, and it is the fundamental basis of Mormonism to believe without questioning. Take someone else's word for it, visions for it, and authority for it. I find it hypocritical that the fundamental scripture for Mormonism, James 1:27 "If ANY of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. That giveeth to ALL men liberally..." is disregarded for the general member. All men can ask God directly and receive directly from God, eliminating the need of prophets to be God's Mouthpieces.
It seems the only reason Joseph mentioned the sealed portion of the plates was that he didn’t feel he had time to finish making the correct number(in his mind) of plates to appear like a good sized book. When witnesses held the cloth containing the plates, they could hear the rustling of metal plates. He had manufactured enough of them to get by with. To cover the fact that the bottom part of the plates didn’t rustle, ostensibly by having some sort of metal band around them, people could be informed of the sealed portion.
@@mckster56 Another giant problem for Mormonism is it teaches the Universe always existed when we actually see the Universe is slowly decaying. Mormon teaching: "They had not beginning, and can have no end." This principle was elaborated on by Brigham Young, who said, "God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law of which the worlds were, are, or will exist." Thus, Mormons deny ex nihilo creation and instead believe that God created or "organized". The bible says God created the Universe and this is supported by the observable evidence and the second law of thermodynamics: everything created is in a process of "breaking down". We see it as the sun will someday burn out, falling stars are dead stars. Our bodies are dying. 2nd law of thermodynamics: even if we leave a system completely alone, it changes; it deteriorates over time. As Christians we see this in the Bible. Everything is dying (deteriorating) because of the sin of man and all creation is groaning. "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." Romans 8:22 But rejoice the All mighty God of the bible is true and BOM is false. Christ will come again and the stars and sun will melt away and a new earth and heaven, indestructible and without sin will replace it for eternity.
Hagiography happens in all religions, and the Mormons do it amazingly well. Doesn't matter the flaws/virtues of the founder. Religion is a racial creation, a receptacle of a people's ideals. The Mormons created a very positive religion out of their weird founder's original stunts. It can go the other way, as well. A genuine divine mystic may found a religion that later becomes barren and twisted. Mormonism was a creation of the Whites from Eastern US (and England etc.) during that time. The founder is just one part of the mix, and really just a vehicle for a particular racial mind.
This dude shouldn't ever be called a profit? He was a total joke but what the real joke is,,is the people that believe the total conman ...great work Dan Vogel
@@mckster56 It's been 3 years since I posted this and I finally got around to reading the Holy Bible KJV and it's clear that what the Mormon faith is teaching is against the scriptures, it took me a long time to read the Bible also, it was a hard read for me.
@@MeToo-py1tq I retired to the Philippines, I couldn't get my adopted kids out (long painful story) and well... there's not too many people that speak English and so the Mormon Missionary's came over and I couldn't resist conversation, it's been years since I can speak for lengthy periods English. Anyway... I didn't have the Holy Bible and I asked them if they had one I could buy and they ended up giving me a KJV only it had the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenance and they kept pushing me to read the Book of Mormon so.... I did lol... and we talk about it and man.... from the get go the first chapter told me everything about the Mormon faith but like a fool I continued on and ended up reading the entire Book of Mormon and the reason I wanted the Bible was to start out with the Old Testament. Anyway again... I couldnt' accept it, and then I began reading the Old Testament, I started the year before Covid and I began to see just how flawed the Mormon Faith is even to the fact that they prefer to call themselves the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Everything that I read points more to our Heavenly Father wanting our love and the focus really isn't Jesus or Gods only begotten son, Jesus was sent to try and turn things around with evil, forgiveness of sin and a new Covenant replacing Noah's Covenant and set up Gods Church on Earth and show how to run it properly so ... And after the resurection, Jesus showed the Apostles his wounds and he further instructed them to spread the word for 40 days before he ascended into Heaven. The Apostles were all executed years later and the church had already been set up and structured so no more need for further Apostles or anymore profits, everything has been said, everything has been done we are now waiting for the Final Day. Sorry for the long rant, I had to get it out.
I feel sorry for the kid. He had to totally double down on what he knew was a made-up story that he had concocted to impress the neighbours and make his family proud. It can't have been easy keeping track of the lies, fending off overinquisitive family and friends, having to invent new stories and excuses, whilst at the same time having to keep an eye on all those older, more cynical, sharks who were circling and hoping to profit. Jesus... the guy deserves his own religion after all that!
Mormonism was so close to being a doomsday cult, it's not funny. If it wasn't for the fact that Joseph kept getting scared and running away from the fights, it would have ended really badly for them. But the leader-worship, the separate-from-the-world, the end-times, the literal gathering of the Saints before the Second Coming, the isolationist style, it had all the ingredients.
Joseph's date for the Book of Manipulation is occult and based on the fall equinox and its "meaning". The founding date for Joe's cult church is also occult. Carthage Jail is today slathered with pentagrams, some pointy side up, some down. And they are placed in odd positions on the jail. There are also other odd emblems on the cult center. They're easy to see. And the fall from the 2nd story isn't too far, especially if he was hanging out the window. Then it would be less than 8 feet. The real source of Joe's occult knowledge seems to be Luman Walters. His name is numerologicaly occult and I've never found his "Born with name". Lawarence was also an occultist teaching Joe his trade.
I've been to Carthage Jail many times and it is not "slathered with pentagrams." LOL. What you're referring to are anchor plates for the metal support rods used in building the jail. The star shaped anchor plates were common on American buildings erected in the 19th century. I lived in the Colonial Williamsburg area of Virginia, and those star anchor plates are on old farm houses, stores and public buildings that were erected around here in the 1800's.
Dude, lets not turn to quackery. There's no need to. Let's just stick to things like the BoA and the kinderhook plates. Huh? Joey didn't "translate" a damn thing.
RedDelPaPa I agree. Joseph Smith did not translate anything. Joseph Smith WROTE "The Book of Mormon." It is completely fictional--it is folk-art--the product of the Federal Period American frontier. And as a Reform Mormon I accept it as scripture because ALL scripture of EVERY religion is art.
I believe all this stuff did not come from joseph smith mind alone. Its to complex for a men to conceive it in his head. It seems that he had some sort of contact with some power of some sort. But that power came from the master of this wrold. The one that was a liar from the beginning who tricked Eve in the garden of Eden that they will be like God. He inspired this false profet and the one thing they will have in common is the lake of fire.
I don't believe for a nano second that Joseph Sr. was sincere when he testified that both he and Joseph were "mortified" that Joseph's marvelous gift should be used only in search of "filthy lucre" and that God would illumine the boy, etc. Sr. was a raggedy dirt poor old alcoholic who lost his farm while he was helping Joseph's con in digging for the lost silver mine near Harmony and bragged that he knew more about treasure digging than anyone in his generation. In my opinion, it is clear that Sr. was just sucking up to the Judge in the hope that the Judge would go easy on Joseph. Tellingly, Joseph didn't give up treasure digging until a year and a half later when he promised Isaac Hale he would work hard for a living and Isaac promised to assist Joseph in getting into business. Joseph's promise to Isaac didn't mean any more to him than Sr.'s oath meant to Sr. It was only a month later in September 1927 that Joseph started the gold plates con.
Joseph had so many cons going I think he had trouble keeping his story straight. He told Willard Chase he could not get the plates until he had a good chest with a lock in which to keep the plates. When he and Emma came home without the plates on Sept. 22, 1827, he said he could not take the plates because he did not have a chest with a lock. However, when he brought the plates home some days later he still didn't have a chest and someone was sent to get a chest from Hyrum. Why did the angel let Joseph take the plates without having a chest. Moreover, of course, they could have obtained that chest from Hyrum before Joseph and Emma went to the hill. The chest obviously provided scant protection for the plates in any event. Oh what a tangled web.....
What's wrong with you people? The Golden Plates are on display in the Smithsonian Institute where all great discoveries are housed. What? An Angel took them to Heaven? Why? Because they were sacred, silly. Oh, I see. Wait a minute. The words weren't sacred since they we translated into the BoM. That left only gold. Gold is not sacred. Maybe Smith was going to be tempted to use them to make money. Hum, not much of a choice for God to pick to restore His gospel, a man who would turn on Him for money. Maybe because evil men would try and get them. Wait, evil me DID try and get them, and failed. What a testimony to the BoM the authentic plates would be had they been allowed to remain. I think Thomas S. Monson should ask God why He did such a foolish thing as demanding the plates in heaven. Wait, I think the brethren already answered that question. God wants us to believe on blind faith only. Proof is for the weak who persist in using their own brains. I hope that clears it up.
Dan Vogel Your good at filling in the blanks Dan, interesting, you side stepped this one. If you worked as hard at asking "God it these things are not true" you would probably have a great testimony of the work. I am so glad I do despite my weaknesses. Hope the best for you.
+August Zabriskie I recall that one posted ''where did Norris Stearns, Elias Smith, Wild and James Marsh get their ideas from. those who truly seek will have similar experiences''
Dan------------>> (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:1 - 3) THE ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee; And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors.
***** Do you mean all of them?...>>.no......Do you mean some of them that lost their faith in him and tried to kill him, yes....People are not just one or dozens or hundreds, but all of them. The majority did not and stood by him, even after his murder.
***** Many did, yet many came back to the government " D+C" Joseph setup, with Apostles after him to gather the sheep into the fold. James J. Strang did not last, he was murdered and have yet to be informed of his "apostles" baring their witness to "his-plates" all the remaining days of their lives, in fact all denied. Sidney Rigdon well a tortured soul, thought tooo much of himself, could not understand, Gods kingdom relied upon God to organize it with his servants, not take it upon themselves to counsel, God. Brigham Young well YOU know the history of that, no point re-educating you......fickle minded?..well lost for a brief period or disorganized would be a better term, but again, you know the history to this. Would I call you a traitor, well depends. Would you openly deny, what you know to be true after the Spirit had bore witness to your soul? Would you openly fight against Christs church and his servant Joseph Smith Jnr? Would you openly deny you had ever know the spirit and it told of the truthfulness of your testimonies in fast and testimony meetings? Would you openly deny Christ by stating you were blind all these years and now your eyes are open? To ANY of these, short answer = Yes! YOU obviously valued "MY" opinion to ask, am I correct?...But the Lord is far more merciful than what I am....It is HE that you should ask, because it is HIS kingdom that you walked away from, not mine!
***** Thank you for replying to me. Joseph is held in high esteem, ONLY because of the Lord chose and had chosen him only to recieve all the Lord wanted for "THAT GENERATION"...... Just as Peter was chosen for his generation and I would hap hazzards to guess, peter would have been mentioned, just as much, considering the miracles he did in the name of the Lord, also. The fact that Strang was ever considered as a legitimate successor to Joseph Smith is quite telling because he was close to Joseph and like Oliver, thought , { they } would naturally be selected or called of God to fill the vacant position of his death, as Elias was to Elijah?....But forgot God works independently from men and had [ always has] someone else in mind..Acts 1:26 is the example. The "mormons" belong to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" -- plain and simple. Joseph was ever ONLY a servant" to Christ nothing more and how do I know this?....Well any prophet after him?. Section 122 of the D & C. was in fact what I was thinking, when I typed my response to you and why?.....Because the Lord knew and knows, who were loyal to Joseph, his servant....And for everyone to see, the words of the Lord are verified,almost daily to them that would accuse or cry,sinner, when they had not sinned in the first place...D+C 121 When Mormon missionaries come to my home, I proudly testify that Smith was a fraud. I ALWAYS tell them WHY...and they are NEVER able to refute me....Whats the point in arguing?..ONLY brings in contentions and anger and mistrust even hatred and allows lucifer the gain Allow me to state something which you may have never known?.......Almost every "mormon" has a trial of his/her faith once in their life time [ doubt caused either by friends or things which we cannot explain or by proof which is not available, right now ] which is ONLY natural......only natural... I too went through one of these, because I allowed myself to think [ whispered too ] , I was not worthy or good enough to live up to the standards [ w.o.w ].....Just as Peter and Paul realised God had a work for them and were not cast into hell forever, but were loved, even though they left him [ as I did ] , but never denied the church nor Prophet I repented and returned to the Lord, with his servant in charge of Pres Ezra T Benson, of my time period.
***** Why are you shocked, this was plain knowledge?.....found in (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:52 - 53) And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God. 53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him. .....common knowledge but really WHO BOTHERS to read? Different times and different laws back then for marrying women...I have no problems with that Did YOU know "these" women wanted to be with Joseph, in his family with their husbands for eternity as a family? Joseph had ONLY ONE WIFE because there is no proof of anything as far as I know, he had children to other women...many have claimed but have not proved as such? I know your concerns, but really many things we do not know, nor recorded to make a complete and honest judgement of him and his times....There is much mis-information out there and it comes from people who have left and people who claim to know? YOU have the freedom to choose, to believe or not...but if you do, ask God, because he wont lie.
I'm an astrologer and I think I have come up with an accurate natal chart for Smith. I believe he had a heavily Neptune-afflicted Third House. With this situation you: 1) Hear all kinds of weird tales, stories, and gossip starting young, 2) You produce weird tales and stories yourself, some of which you believe 3) You sometimes actually see and hear weird and visionary things, 4) You have a tendency to lie, as well, partly because opportunities to deceive naturally arise, and 5) You are able to create loads of buzz and gossip, and stoke delusions and talk with just little pushes of your hand...
Agenda? He's presenting a narrative supported by the evidence with little regard for faith promotion. Agree or disagree with it but the so called 'agenda' isn't really relevant. Sure for faithful LDS, Mormon history is driven by the desire to make the Church "true" and so anything else is suspect but this is just a different view of the same story. Maybe Dan is merely presenting the story that he sees coming form the evidence- whether or not it conflicts with LDS faith and foundational claims.
Yep, he is really weird, and all that shouting! What amuses me most about his rants is that he lies so openly. I wonder if he was kicked out of the LDS church? #
Obviously Joseph could not tell immediately to his mother, that he got the plates, because he live with Emma :) And his mother in fact talked a lot about his visits to Kumora :)
I don't see any logical reason for 'God' to want any so-called sacred record to continue to be concealed form the world. If the contents were to be revealed, why not the source of the contents? The only logical reason for continuing to conceal the plates is that Joseph Smith made them and knew that revealing them would blow his story. Joseph Smith also claimed to translate Egyptian, which translation has now been shown to be a farce.
Vogel, how many people were in the practice of digging for lost Spanish treasure, during Smith's time? Quick answer; MANY. The claim that Joseph Smith stumbled upon the gold plates, in his treasure-seeking gig, is as weak as Moses carving the characters on the ten commandment--stone tablets, because he was around stone and therefore, should easily have known how to carve it himself.
The testimony of the three witnesses who actually saw the plates is strangely missing from Vogel's narrative. I can picture him picking and choosing what he decided to add.
Those testimonies (written as one for three and one for eight) would carry far more weight if they weren't from his closest followers, who had already demonstrated their susceptibility to the story he was selling. I would rather a testimony from an independent witness, but apparently they weren't worthy enough to see them. What kind of precedent do we have for God banning the seeing of original source documents for scriptures? I mean, they weren't written by "the finger of God", just some ancient American guys. The problem is, if you were someone trying to perpetrate a fraud, the convenience of all these factors would certainly play in your favour.
It's quite amazing that MORmON Jesus is always so financially needy. Whether needing money to print the BOM or build a new Mall in SLC next to LDS Inc headquarters. MORmONS claim that their Jesus is creator of the Universe, the MORmON Jesus is supposedly smart enough to create the universe, but he can not come up with any money with out begging for it from others.
I had a wonderful day yesterday. The first thing I did was go to one of the temples built by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What a beautiful experience that was. I love this church.
If it works for you to revere a man who married other men's wives and copied the Masonic ceremony, go for it. Religion is all just a human construct anyway.
Cathedrals mosques an temples can be beautiful buildings but doesnt mean theyre true. also temples dont allow unbelievers in unlike the others. It means the lds church knows that its so crazy unbelievers wont believe it so they hide
Charlatan of fake buried treasure was his life occupation. No suprise in the way his days ended, as the list of people he had wronged was as long and heavy as the chain carried by the ghost of Jacob Marley from Dickens novel.
I am not a baptized mormon. I've been having dreams and visions. One of me burying a book of gods word , devotion and law. This for people to find to educate once it has been forgotten. When the lands grow darker. I had vision yesterday of getting away in the mountains for safety and to be closer to god. I believe joseph smith was indeed a true prophet.
Joseph Smith the convicted conman, created mormon faith so he could have sex with 12 year old girls, marry other men's wives when their husbands were away on missions and so he could keep 10% of everyone's earnings. The cult members were promised that they would become Gods on planet kolob when they died
Its true: Theres so many connecting dots: Some of the greatest detractors are these former members: Ask yourself why would they turn into the greatest, meanest, attackers of the Church: Ask yourself? They wont let it go will they: Trying to disprove it: An impossible task! Its true: l"ll say this much: lts worth testing!
Fast forward 170 years, my dude invented the most lucrative business in the most powerful country in the world. Weird, h Joseph smith Andy l Ron Hubbard never really got to see the fruits of their labours
Are there people that claim to have seen the plates other tham mr smith? Does the mormon church have them in their possesion or maybe in an exibit i could visit? If so where. This would be a faith affirming experience for many members.
+Aye Dee Really? Lets see, he wrote his experiences down and then had witnesses. What do you have but heresay and only accusation without fact. You have the lies of the mob and the bias media of the time and lets not forget up standing Gov. Lillburn Boggs what a great man for you, "Extermination 44", and then theirs General Wilson that said, "We Jackson County boys know how it is. We know that from the beginning the Mormons have not been the aggressors at all as it began in `33,. You Mormons were crowded to the last extreme, and compelled to self-defense; and this has been construed into treason, murder and plunder. We mob you without law; the authorities refuse to protect you according to law; you then are compelled to protect yourselves, and we act upon the prejudices of the public, who join our forces, and the whole is legalized, for your destruction and our gain. Is not this a shrewd and cunning policy on our part, gentlemen"? ..... then of course let not forget Hauns MIll 18 fathers and sons murdered in cold blood with press destroyed. Oh please, explain to me General Wilsons comment before you babble on. It will be interesting to here your response. and state the church you go to please.
liar, he studied real gold plates, he did not stick his head in a hat and also Joseph Smith did not create the mormon faith so he could have sex with 12 year old girls, marry other men's wives when their husbands were away on missions and so he could keep 10% of everyone's earnings. The mormons were promised that they would become Gods on planet kolob when they died
Dan, is there any evidence that Joseph made up the story about the necessity to bring Alvin to the hill in 1824 before Alvin died in Nov. 1823? Is there any evidence that Joseph actually went to the hill in 1824 rather than just saying he couldn't get the plates because Alvin was dead?
Willard Chase and Joseph Knight Sr. mention an 1824 visit to the hill without Alvin. He was tome return the next year with the right person, which was finally fulfilled with Emma. I don't think the requirement to bring Alvin was mentioned until he needed a reason for failing to get the plates.
Dan, you must have copies of diaries, journals, etc... to lay down such a great story book like narration. Who is the original author of your narration?
Dan Vogel has a video where he tries to say that there were no revivals in Palmyra in 1820. Google ''Answering the CES Letter 22 to 23 First Vision PART 2'' That video clearly shows that there were revivals in Palmyra in 1820.
sea speaks to mountain. thunder speaks to sky. they mounts up to a fountain. waves witness to cloudless sky the blue behind endless infinity. God Sees. meanwhile carnival charlatans bark and hock wares wheat and tares breaking the living bread by appalling the dead burying life in endless muck. i ask you who are so blind but those who will not and will not to see for money? 👑 🤍 love, david
I have been so impressed by a reading of the Book of Mormon. This is quite a remarkable and wonderful book. I love that it was translated by the gift and power of God from ancient metal plates. What a blessing to have this volume as another testament of Jesus Christ.
There were no plates used to transcribe the Book of Mormon. It was all done with a rock in a hat. The Mormon church has misrepresented the manner of the 'translation" for over a hundred years.
Poot Daggy - You put too much trust in Mr Vogel who is himself struggling to put forth yet another theory for the incredible power of the Book of Mormon narrative. It changes lives. There are so many such theories that it boggles the mind. As I study LDS church history and put the teachings of the Book of Mormon to the test, I am amazed by its truth. This Joseph Smith character is truly exceptional. How much of the Book of Mormon have you read?
The apostles and angels in heaven "worshiped" Jesus. He is "the Word, and the Word was God" who created all things in heaven and earth - Jhn 1:3, Col 1:16, Eph 3:9, Isa 40:26, Rev 4:11.... Every knee will bow to Him as the mighty God - Isa 9:6, Rev 19:1 / I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the LORD our GOD: The Bible is correct. The Holy Spirit and faithful in Christ never left the earth....Joseph lied.
BOTH LUKE AND MARK WHO WROTE THE GOSPELS LEFT THE EARLY CHURCH. THEY CAME BACK AFTER PAUL AND PETER WENT AND HELPED THEM. SOME SEVENTIES AND BISHOPS ALSO LEFT. MEN ARE WEEK.
+Dan Vogel Dan, as I have pointed out elsewhere, you have a serious problem with source control. Let me clarify this for the layman. This means that he selects sources which follow his agenda. He is unwilling to vouch for the credibility and reliability of his sources. He is masterful with his imaginative interpretation of those sources, mingling facts with a fictional narrative. Inh his conclusions, he performs astonishing leaps of logic. Here is a review of Vogel's books and scholarship. Decide for yourself whether he is credible. publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1430&index=8
cdowis These are just empty assertions without examples. Reviews by apologists that don't relate to the above video is merely trying to poison the well. That apologists try to counter my works is hardly surprising.
Dan Vogel Dan, You and I already had a detailed discussions elsewhere, and no need to repeat myself since you again will simply "forget" the points. You take sources which have specifically addressed the vision of the Three Witnesses, and applied them to the Eight Witnesses. You then completely discount their clear statement, without any pretense of justification. You quote a report of a "statement" by Martin Harris to a group of people. Your source is the only one who recorded this statement, despite its shocking nature. Nobody else reported this statement. And you cannot vouch for this one individual's integrity. You then turn from scholarship to fiction, giving us a scenario of the Eight Witnesse experience taken completely from your imagination, constructed out of whole cloth. You clearly already had a conclusion where you are desperately seeking sources to confirm that bias, regardless of their reliability. AND if you cannot find a source, YOU ARE NOT SHY IN SIMPLY USING YOUR IMAGINATION. Anyway, we've had this conversation with specific details, and I see no need in a further discussion with you, so I give you the courtesy of having the last word.
cdowis Joseph Smith stated that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion.he sealed his testimony of the Book of Mormon with his own blood,and there were multiple eye witnesses to the Golden plates.thus, only those who hate the truth will give a thumbs up to this video
cdowis You have major problems in Mormanism matching up with the bible. Think about it . Different gospel, different Jesus. In Mormanism without Joseph Smith it all goes away. Think about it.
I mean no harm but this account makes you wonder if they did any psychotropic drugs back in this period of time. I mean are they serious? On the word of a man who left a lot to be desired as far as credibility is concerned. A self described get rich quick schemer is the last person you would take the word of for anything.
I had not really investigated Vogel's work but have heard him quoted much and figured he had some credibility as a historian. I was disappointed after watching this video. Vogel shows here he will spin his own commentary into his discussion in order to lead the viewer to discount Joseph Smith or his supporters. At one point, when Vogel wants to suggest the plates were made of tin or iron -- and that they might thus match the 40-50 pound estimate of Martin Harris for the plates, Vogel brings up some estimates of weight by Read Putnam who was experienced in metalworking -- that plates might be some 50% the weight of a solid block of the same metal. In Putnam's article, he suggests the plates could have been from a metal alloy. But later in the video, he has Harris commenting about the heaviness of the plates and suggesting their composition to be of gold or lead -- then Vogel proceeds to show Harris as an unreliable witness because such dimensions of plates would have weighed 201 pounds for gold or 118 pounds for lead. No mention here that the figures Vogel presents would be for a solid block of pure gold or pure lead. And if someone is bending metal bars to fashion three rings, the most common way to do it would be to use a vise or some implement to secure one end of the bar while bending. Vogel wants to suggest Joseph Smith may have dislocated his thumb bending the rings by hand, then to cover himself invented the story of being attacked multiple times. Vogel also wants the viewer to believe that Joseph, according to the story, RAN WITH THE PLATES CONTINUOUSLY FOR A HALF MILE before being attacked again, then CONTINUED RUNNING. This is impractical and did not likely happen the way Vogel wants you to believe. Joseph more likely ran for a short distance, rested, and walked on before the next attack. This understanding is a more practical interpretation and still fits the narrative (second-hand) as told by Joseph's mother -- especially for anyone committed to piecing together information from historical records with a careful eye.
Putnam suggested that the plates were a mixture of gold and copper, but they would either still be too heavy or of such high copper content would corrode. My reference to Harris claiming the plates were either gold or lead and that the Smiths couldn’t afford either was to show Harris didn’t know how much gold weighs since he said they weighed forty or fifty pounds. At a 30 percent reduction for unevenness and spacing of the plates, gold might be adjusted to 140.5 pounds, lead to 80.15, which doesn’t change my observation about Harris. I didn’t question his weight estimate of between 40-50 pounds or his reliability. On bending the rings with a vice as you suggest, I don’t know how that would work out in the woods. He could have used some kind of bending device, but still injured his thumb. On running with the plates: This was to show that the plates would have to be on the light side of the estimates to be believable to his family.
It is interesting to note how much speculation is included in this segment. Words such as "probably" and "may have" are used quite often. Also, It's hard to trust a report that relies on Eber Howe's "Mormonism Unvailed" :( If you can find these same statements from other sources, that would improve the validity of this documentary.
THE JERUSALEM TEMPLE HAD BRONZE METAL PLATES ( AND MANY OTHER OBJECTS) LIKE THE ONES MENTIONED IN THE BOOK OF MORMON WHICH ALSO WERE IN THE TEMPLE, AND HAD WRITING ON THEM. THESE WERE FOUND AMONG THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS.
So. Writing on metal plates was known in JS time. JS had to explain how the record survived. You need to research these things more. This has been dealt with before.
Read what I wrote. The Dead Sea Scrolls have nothing to do with it. Bible commentaries in JS's day mention writing on metal plates, metal books with rings. Johann Jahn wrote in 1823 that “those [ancient] books, which were inscribed on tablets of wood, lead, brass, or ivory, were connected together by rings at the back, through which a rod was passed to carry them by” (Jahn’s Biblical Archaeology, Thomas C. Upham, trans. [Andover, 1823], 95-96). Cf. The Evening and the Morning Star 1 (Jan. 1833), in which W. W. Phelps quotes from Jahn’s book. Thomas Hartwell Horne, An Introduction to the Study of Bibliography, 2 vols. (London, 1814), 1:33-35, discusses the ancient use of lead books and brass and copper plates; Claudius Buchanan, The Star in the East, 10th Amer. ed. (Boston, 1811), 48-49, says that the Jews of Cochin, India, who Buchanan believed were remnants of the lost ten tribes, kept a history of their journey to those parts on “plates of brass”; Bernard de Montfaucon, Antiquity Explained, and Represented in Sculptures, 2 vols. (London, 1721), 2:241-42, contains a description and drawing of an Egyptian gnostic book of lead. There also claims of finding copper plates inscribed with characters in the mounds in North America.
Dan Vogel FOR MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED YEARS ANTI MORMONS LAUGHED AT THE BOOK OF MORMONS CLAIM THAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN ON PLATES OF GOLD AND THAT THE HEBREWS HAD ALSO WROTE ON BRASS PLATES. HOWEVER FOUND AMONG THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS WAS THE SO CALLED COPPER SCROLL (WHICH WAS ACTUALLY BRONZE PLATES ). IN BOTH CASES THE BRONZE PLATES AND THE BRASS PLATES WERE FROM JERUSALEM. THE BOOK OF MORMON CLAIMS THE ORIGINAL ALPHABET OF THE BOOK OF MORMON WAS REFORMED EGYPTIAN AND IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE. ANTI MORMONS LAUGHED CLAIMING THE HEBREWS WOULD NEVER USE EGYPTIAN TO PRODUCE AN ALPHABET THUS THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS REFORMED EGYPTIAN.. HOWEVER THE GREAT EGYPTOLOGIST FLINDERS PETRIE, BIBLICAL SCHOLAR WILLIAM F. ALBRIGHT, AND MODERN EGYPTOLOGIST JOHN DARNELL HAVE DISCOVERED THAT THE HEBREW/PHOENICIAN ALPHABET WAS CREATED BY REFORMING EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPHICS AND USING HEBREW LANGUAGE. THIS IS EXACTLY AS THE BOOK OF MORMON DESCRIBES!!! ANTI MORMONS HIDE THESE FACTS!!!!!
I love how you give equal weight to every bit of evidence even though they conflict. For instance, you include quotes of 3rd hand sources from enemies of the Church and Joseph Smith that say Joseph Smith admitted he was a fraud with the use of his stone, but then list non biased sources which say he did find out things with the use of his stone. Of course you then conclude based on the evidence that he was a fraud??? Likewise, your constant use of vague terms Like: Probably... May have been... is likely.... Could be... to prove your case... This does not impress me. Would you allow Mormons to use such terms in proving their position? Somehow I think not.
+JEM Seven Sorry, I don't believe in magic underwear, neither does the LDS Church... Never has. I guess that's just another of the thousands of false statements one has come to expect from AntiMormons.
LOL.... That has got to be the stupidest response I have ever seen..... does that mean if I was to tie a string around my finger to remind me of something; and then I remember it later because of the string, then the string is somehow MAGICAL! LOL... Really???? It protects you against temptation because it serves to remind you of the covenants you made with God, much the same way wearing a cross does to a Christian.... there is nothing physical or magical about that. Yes there are some that while wearing a cross or carrying a Bible into battle, it has stopped a bullet; that doesn't give the cross or the Bible any power. God could of simply of used those means to show forth His power. My sister for instance was in a plane crash where she received 3rd degree burns everywhere but in a certain area where she was wearing a certain article of clothing. However, if you were to ask her, she would tell you the garments had nothing to do with it, it was the power of God which spared her for His purpose, not the cloth or the symbols she was wearing.
Just when i thought you couldn't say anything dumber... you do. The irony is that the only one that is talking about... or who has talked about "magic underwear", is you! Nowhere in any statement from the church does it say that the garment has any magical or supernatural powers, I even stated that have never believed it did, and that my sister doesn't believe so either, even though she alone could make a case for it. I simply don't limit God, and how He wants to display His Power like you do... If God wants to show Himself as a burning bush, who am I to argue that He can not... I just don't give any Power to the bush, nor would I worship the bush... Read Matthew 9:20-22... was the healing Power in Christ? did it come from the garment Christ was wearing? or was it in the women's faith? where did the supernatural power come from?
***** "temper tantrums" Really???? LOL... I do this for the fun of it, I am not here to defend my church. All I do is expose how silly your arguments are.
Dan Vogel, I do appreciate your work. I've been a member of the church for over 50 years and had to have my name removed because it became so toxic & controlling. You have given me a better perspective on Joseph Smith's sickness. Thank you!
God Bless you, thankfully your eyes were opened. The greatest challenge will be to rescue others still blinded. May you be blesses
God bless you, , I really appreciate Dan sharing his years of experience with all of us,,it's amazing how much he has studied Joseph Smith,,,and he is spot on with his info, I pray that God has blessed Dan and his family
Joseph smith the true magician.. He pulled off the longest magic trick..
Still posting your crap?
Richard Holmes I would say this same thing to you.
Read the story of prophet Muhammad... They share lots of similarities
@Private Private lt is time to put on your thinking cap.
@Private Private Do you avoid "all sinning" PFC Private?
Joseph started it with lies and imagination but the L.D.S. church have indeed" found" themselves a lot of treasure.
So grateful for Vogel's scholarship.
I am just now seeing these videos. What a wonderful compilation of *everything* that was recorded of the beginning of the church.
THESE are the videos that should be shown to all who want to learn of the church.
The gullibility is astounding!
Mormonism should be redefined as Science Fiction
+ Really, it's just fiction. Science has little to do with it.
It was based on science fiction actually smith was the l Ron Hubbard of the 1800s john Carter of Mars comes to mind
Bible fan fiction.
Historical Fiction
Great job Dan - very well done.
Plates were made in Palmyra and/or Rochester NY. Plated with brass or gold. And brought back to Smith who "found" them in the hill.
There y'are!
The only real plates JosephsMyth ever brought home were those stolen from neighbors pantries.
Mountain Meadow Mormonism good one!
Exactly 😂😂
By far the best research on this topic in existence. Absolutely incredible
I absolutely love the missionaries, they are some of my favorite people in the world right now. We have the best conversations, my family absolutely loves them as well. They are intelligent and well rounded individuals with great moral fortitude... their service has inspired me to be more active in my own service to humanity..... With that said... they asked me to read the Book of Mormon and I did. It has got to be one of the worst books I’ve ever read! It was frustratingly repetitive, horribly simple minded and the only bearable parts were plagiarized from the Bible. My ten year old tells better stories. It made me want to hide my face in a hat too. But I don’t hold it against the LDS at all! Most of western society participates in the most disgusting cult practices I have ever witnessed. Reality TV, fractional reserve banking, politics. There are far too many too mention. We have all been conned! We perpetuate a system that is completely destructive to the ecosystem all known life operates within. But I do enjoy the kjv. It is a riveting and engaging script.
Badly Drawn I encourage you to write your own scripture and start your own religion I look forward to hearing how far you can take this with your magic writing skills
NightmareEntity I’ve written some scripture in my day... I’m having trouble finding investors to back it.... it’s called “ Common sense, the ancient art of balanced intention”
You would think the book would sell itself! Maybe I need a martyr? George Carlin maybe?
Badly Drawn isn’t that the comedian? One of my friends died with a heart attack not so long ago so I don’t you to try and prove to me there is no afterlife because common sense says so, life is cruel enough as it is
NightmareEntity I believe in life everlasting. It is more than obvious to me that there is a designer. And that everything is connected by one source. That is all a person can know for sure in my opinion. Everything else is hearsay. I love reading all spiritual text though. I just didn’t enjoy the BOM. Because it was just bad... I’m now reading Doctrines and Covenants, It’s a fun read because of how hilarious it is. D&C was obviously written to try and explain all the obvious deceptive behavior, convenient miracles, and also to establish himself as a great “profit” by using god as a character witness. Same as every other “profit” it’s all ego. There are no “profits” just people who understand cause and effect, entropy, social systems, ebb and flow. They ballpark some numbers and wrap it in allegory... most of these “profits” are like a clock who’s hands are stuck in place. They are gonna be right twice a day.
Badly Drawn I haven’t read the full doctrine and Covenants but some of it is really good thanks for sharing you option and sorry if I was rude the Book of Mormon inspires a lot of people no book of scripture is perfect
"In an age of information ignorance is a choice."
Exactly! Absolutely willful. A cult will manipulate its members so they will fear doing real research.
Once again a great piece of work for everyone who is interested in the history of Joseph Smith!
Fascinating history sad fiction awesome research
If you are intrigued by joe smith there is sn exellent biography by fawn brodie a relative of david mckay a later church president. She won many awards and accolades for her diligent work and in depth reseach on this book. It is tittled " No Man Knows My History" which was taken from a statement he made in a candid moment when he spoke of himself while delivering a eulogy at a funeral known as The King Follet discource. This was the name of the man being euligized. An exellent insight into joe smith, his life , experiences , and personality. You cant help find him an interesting individual who had the ability to get back up everytime he was knocked down. A very intetesting and thorough look at one of the centurys most interesting characters. I believe the church itself has heartburn over this book and Mrs Brodie was tossed from membership for publishing this deeply researched work to the dismay of many. A great piece of historical diligance snd solid resesrch. Attention keeping and a great read.
I would not be surprised if the tin plates prop is still buried somewhere in the woods near the Smith home. Smith would have had to get rid of it, but he could not simply burn it like a book.
I have the golden tablets of Moroni...... I hid them in a secret vault in a restaurant named Impala located in NW Portland , Oregon...... True Story ( I even wrote it all down so people know I be True in Word / Speech and DEED / Action)- FOREVER & FOREVER & FOREVER + AMEN AMEN AMEN 👼🙏🔥🙏🏳️🌈 🕊️👍 🔥😇🌈😸🕊️👼🔥🙏🔥🙏
Some metal detecting in that area might prove interesting.
Thanks for this, Mr. Vogel! Another great presentation from you! I always wondered what people felt through the cloth when they handled the plates (obviously it was not gold). You show that JS easily had the means to make the plates himself with little cost.
We know we're dealing with a fraud when he tells us that he made a wonderful discovery but the deity has instructed him not to allow anyone else to examine it. That kind of a "discovery" is indistinguishable from a non-discovery!
Yes, and it is the fundamental basis of Mormonism to believe without questioning. Take someone else's word for it, visions for it, and authority for it. I find it hypocritical that the fundamental scripture for Mormonism, James 1:27 "If ANY of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. That giveeth to ALL men liberally..." is disregarded for the general member. All men can ask God directly and receive directly from God, eliminating the need of prophets to be God's Mouthpieces.
@Michael The Bible advises questioning.
@Michael "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good." Thessalonians 5
This is great stuff. You have done a very significant work.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds.
It seems the only reason Joseph mentioned the sealed portion of the plates was that he didn’t feel he had time to finish making the correct number(in his mind) of plates to appear like a good sized book. When witnesses held the cloth containing the plates, they could hear the rustling of metal plates. He had manufactured enough of them to get by with. To cover the fact that the bottom part of the plates didn’t rustle, ostensibly by having some sort of metal band around them, people could be informed of the sealed portion.
Ummm yeah isn't gold y'know really really heavy?
Bill mckeever has some very informative videos on that. Worth checking out
@@mckster56 Another giant problem for Mormonism is it teaches the Universe always existed when we actually see the Universe is slowly decaying.
Mormon teaching: "They had not beginning, and can have no end." This principle was elaborated on by Brigham Young, who said, "God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law of which the worlds were, are, or will exist." Thus, Mormons deny ex nihilo creation and instead believe that God created or "organized".
The bible says God created the Universe and this is supported by the observable evidence and the second law of thermodynamics: everything created is in a process of "breaking down". We see it as the sun will someday burn out, falling stars are dead stars. Our bodies are dying.
2nd law of thermodynamics: even if we leave a system completely alone, it changes; it deteriorates over time.
As Christians we see this in the Bible. Everything is dying (deteriorating) because of the sin of man and all creation is groaning. "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." Romans 8:22
But rejoice the All mighty God of the bible is true and BOM is false. Christ will come again and the stars and sun will melt away and a new earth and heaven, indestructible and without sin will replace it for eternity.
Born liar. Glad he is burning in hell. What's worse is he also dragged my family with him. He deserves every flame of torment for all eternity.
Hagiography happens in all religions, and the Mormons do it amazingly well. Doesn't matter the flaws/virtues of the founder. Religion is a racial creation, a receptacle of a people's ideals. The Mormons created a very positive religion out of their weird founder's original stunts. It can go the other way, as well. A genuine divine mystic may found a religion that later becomes barren and twisted. Mormonism was a creation of the Whites from Eastern US (and England etc.) during that time. The founder is just one part of the mix, and really just a vehicle for a particular racial mind.
Totally fascinating.
This dude shouldn't ever be called a profit? He was a total joke but what the real joke is,,is the people that believe the total conman ...great work Dan Vogel
I'm trying to keep an open mind on this but such an odd story and how is it possible that a Mormon would believe this?
For the leaders $$$ and power for the regular people hope
@@mckster56 It's been 3 years since I posted this and I finally got around to reading the Holy Bible KJV and it's clear that what the Mormon faith is teaching is against the scriptures, it took me a long time to read the Bible also, it was a hard read for me.
@@Anaya_1929
Are you ex Mormon?
@@MeToo-py1tq I retired to the Philippines, I couldn't get my adopted kids out (long painful story) and well... there's not too many people that speak English and so the Mormon Missionary's came over and I couldn't resist conversation, it's been years since I can speak for lengthy periods English.
Anyway... I didn't have the Holy Bible and I asked them if they had one I could buy and they ended up giving me a KJV only it had the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenance and they kept pushing me to read the Book of Mormon so.... I did lol... and we talk about it and man.... from the get go the first chapter told me everything about the Mormon faith but like a fool I continued on and ended up reading the entire Book of Mormon and the reason I wanted the Bible was to start out with the Old Testament.
Anyway again... I couldnt' accept it, and then I began reading the Old Testament, I started the year before Covid and I began to see just how flawed the Mormon Faith is even to the fact that they prefer to call themselves the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Everything that I read points more to our Heavenly Father wanting our love and the focus really isn't Jesus or Gods only begotten son, Jesus was sent to try and turn things around with evil, forgiveness of sin and a new Covenant replacing Noah's Covenant and set up Gods Church on Earth and show how to run it properly so ... And after the resurection, Jesus showed the Apostles his wounds and he further instructed them to spread the word for 40 days before he ascended into Heaven.
The Apostles were all executed years later and the church had already been set up and structured so no more need for further Apostles or anymore profits, everything has been said, everything has been done we are now waiting for the Final Day. Sorry for the long rant, I had to get it out.
I feel sorry for the kid. He had to totally double down on what he knew was a made-up story that he had concocted to impress the neighbours and make his family proud. It can't have been easy keeping track of the lies, fending off overinquisitive family and friends, having to invent new stories and excuses, whilst at the same time having to keep an eye on all those older, more cynical, sharks who were circling and hoping to profit. Jesus... the guy deserves his own religion after all that!
He lied.
Mormonism was so close to being a doomsday cult, it's not funny. If it wasn't for the fact that Joseph kept getting scared and running away from the fights, it would have ended really badly for them. But the leader-worship, the separate-from-the-world, the end-times, the literal gathering of the Saints before the Second Coming, the isolationist style, it had all the ingredients.
Joseph Smith and the prophet Muhammed have alot in common. The later are still worshipped by a billion people
Joseph's date for the Book of Manipulation is occult and based on the fall equinox and its
"meaning". The founding date for Joe's cult church is also occult. Carthage Jail is today slathered with pentagrams, some pointy side up, some down. And they are placed in odd positions on the jail. There are also other odd emblems on the cult center. They're easy to see. And the fall from the 2nd story isn't too far, especially if he was hanging out the window. Then it would be less than 8 feet. The real source of Joe's occult knowledge seems to be Luman Walters. His name is numerologicaly occult and I've never found his "Born with name". Lawarence was also an occultist teaching Joe his trade.
I've been to Carthage Jail many times and it is not "slathered with pentagrams." LOL. What you're referring to are anchor plates for the metal support rods used in building the jail. The star shaped anchor plates were common on American buildings erected in the 19th century. I lived in the Colonial Williamsburg area of Virginia, and those star anchor plates are on old farm houses, stores and public buildings that were erected around here in the 1800's.
robbiefl58 Silly Wabbit..
Dude, lets not turn to quackery. There's no need to. Let's just stick to things like the BoA and the kinderhook plates. Huh? Joey didn't "translate" a damn thing.
RedDelPaPa I agree. Joseph Smith did not translate anything. Joseph Smith WROTE "The Book of Mormon." It is completely fictional--it is folk-art--the product of the Federal Period American frontier.
And as a Reform Mormon I accept it as scripture because ALL scripture of EVERY religion is art.
So this is the true story of when the mormons say that others tried to steal the plates from him , the others being fellow stone seers
At some point you will need to be brave enough to escape Josephs fables and seek the Truth.
I believe all this stuff did not come from joseph smith mind alone. Its to complex for a men to conceive it in his head. It seems that he had some sort of contact with some power of some sort. But that power came from the master of this wrold. The one that was a liar from the beginning who tricked Eve in the garden of Eden that they will be like God. He inspired this false profet and the one thing they will have in common is the lake of fire.
I don't believe for a nano second that Joseph Sr. was sincere when he testified that both he and Joseph were "mortified" that Joseph's marvelous gift should be used only in search of "filthy lucre" and that God would illumine the boy, etc. Sr. was a raggedy dirt poor old alcoholic who lost his farm while he was helping Joseph's con in digging for the lost silver mine near Harmony and bragged that he knew more about treasure digging than anyone in his generation. In my opinion, it is clear that Sr. was just sucking up to the Judge in the hope that the Judge would go easy on Joseph. Tellingly, Joseph didn't give up treasure digging until a year and a half later when he promised Isaac Hale he would work hard for a living and Isaac promised to assist Joseph in getting into business. Joseph's promise to Isaac didn't mean any more to him than Sr.'s oath meant to Sr. It was only a month later in September 1927 that Joseph started the gold plates con.
There is good reason to be skeptical. Thanks for your comment.
@@danvogel6802 Love your videos. I have learned so much.
Joseph Smith brought home fairy tales. There were no Golden plates that's all bs
Isaac Hale certainly knew what a bad husband Joseph Smith Jr would prove to be to Emma Hale.
Joseph had so many cons going I think he had trouble keeping his story straight. He told Willard Chase he could not get the plates until he had a good chest with a lock in which to keep the plates. When he and Emma came home without the plates on Sept. 22, 1827, he said he could not take the plates because he did not have a chest with a lock. However, when he brought the plates home some days later he still didn't have a chest and someone was sent to get a chest from Hyrum. Why did the angel let Joseph take the plates without having a chest. Moreover, of course, they could have obtained that chest from Hyrum before Joseph and Emma went to the hill. The chest obviously provided scant protection for the plates in any event. Oh what a tangled web.....
Good observations.
What's wrong with you people? The Golden Plates are on display in the Smithsonian Institute where all great discoveries are housed. What? An Angel took them to Heaven? Why? Because they were sacred, silly. Oh, I see. Wait a minute. The words weren't sacred since they we translated into the BoM. That left only gold. Gold is not sacred. Maybe Smith was going to be tempted to use them to make money. Hum, not much of a choice for God to pick to restore His gospel, a man who would turn on Him for money. Maybe because evil men would try and get them. Wait, evil me DID try and get them, and failed. What a testimony to the BoM the authentic plates would be had they been allowed to remain. I think Thomas S. Monson should ask God why He did such a foolish thing as demanding the plates in heaven. Wait, I think the brethren already answered that question. God wants us to believe on blind faith only. Proof is for the weak who persist in using their own brains. I hope that clears it up.
If the Plates were shown today you would still find some way to cry fowl. Why the Mormons are rich they had them made.
Scott M Unfortunately, we will never get to see if your assertion is true.
Dan Vogel Your good at filling in the blanks Dan, interesting, you side stepped this one. If you worked as hard at asking "God it these things are not true" you would probably have a great testimony of the work. I am so glad I do despite my weaknesses. Hope the best for you.
***** Then you have given the mob do credit for there lies it appears.
+August Zabriskie I recall that one posted ''where did Norris Stearns, Elias Smith, Wild and James Marsh get their ideas from. those who truly seek will have similar experiences''
It seems like LDS was doing LSD,,
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! TOUCHE!!! 😁
That's funny ,,,ain't it though
Dan------------>> (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:1 - 3)
THE ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;
And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors.
***** Do you mean all of them?...>>.no......Do you mean some of them that lost their faith in him and tried to kill him, yes....People are not just one or dozens or hundreds, but all of them.
The majority did not and stood by him, even after his murder.
***** Many did, yet many came back to the government " D+C" Joseph setup, with Apostles after him to gather the sheep into the fold.
James J. Strang did not last, he was murdered and have yet to be informed of his "apostles" baring their witness to "his-plates" all the remaining days of their lives, in fact all denied.
Sidney Rigdon well a tortured soul, thought tooo much of himself, could not understand, Gods kingdom relied upon God to organize it with his servants, not take it upon themselves to counsel, God.
Brigham Young well YOU know the history of that, no point re-educating you......fickle minded?..well lost for a brief period or disorganized would be a better term, but again, you know the history to this.
Would I call you a traitor, well depends.
Would you openly deny, what you know to be true after the Spirit had bore witness to your soul?
Would you openly fight against Christs church and his servant Joseph Smith Jnr?
Would you openly deny you had ever know the spirit and it told of the truthfulness of your testimonies in fast and testimony meetings?
Would you openly deny Christ by stating you were blind all these years and now your eyes are open?
To ANY of these, short answer = Yes!
YOU obviously valued "MY" opinion to ask, am I correct?...But the Lord is far more merciful than what I am....It is HE that you should ask, because it is HIS kingdom that you walked away from, not mine!
***** Thank you for replying to me.
Joseph is held in high esteem, ONLY because of the Lord chose and had chosen him only to recieve all the Lord wanted for "THAT GENERATION"......
Just as Peter was chosen for his generation and I would hap hazzards to guess, peter would have been mentioned, just as much, considering the miracles he did in the name of the Lord, also.
The fact that Strang was ever considered as a legitimate successor to Joseph Smith is quite telling because he was close to Joseph and like Oliver, thought ,
{ they }
would naturally be selected or called of God to fill the vacant position of his death, as Elias was to Elijah?....But forgot God works independently from men and had [ always has] someone else in mind..Acts 1:26 is the example.
The "mormons" belong to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" -- plain and simple. Joseph was ever ONLY a servant" to Christ nothing more and how do I know this?....Well any prophet after him?.
Section 122 of the D & C. was in fact what I was thinking, when I typed my response to you and why?.....Because the Lord knew and knows, who were loyal to Joseph, his servant....And for everyone to see, the words of the Lord are verified,almost daily to them that would accuse or cry,sinner, when they had not sinned in the first place...D+C 121
When Mormon missionaries come to my home, I proudly testify that Smith was a fraud. I ALWAYS tell them WHY...and they are NEVER able to refute me....Whats the point in arguing?..ONLY brings in contentions and anger and mistrust even hatred and allows lucifer the gain
Allow me to state something which you may have never known?.......Almost every "mormon" has a trial of his/her faith once in their life time
[ doubt caused either by friends or things which we cannot explain or by proof which is not available, right now ]
which is ONLY natural......only natural...
I too went through one of these, because I allowed myself to think [ whispered too ] , I was not worthy or good enough to live up to the standards [ w.o.w ].....Just as Peter and Paul realised God had a work for them and were not cast into hell forever, but were loved, even though they left him [ as I did ] , but never denied the church nor Prophet I repented and returned to the Lord, with his servant in charge of Pres Ezra T Benson, of my time period.
***** Why are you shocked, this was plain knowledge?.....found in
(Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:52 - 53)
And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith,
receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me;
and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
.....common knowledge but really WHO BOTHERS to read?
Different times and different laws back then for marrying women...I have no problems with that
Did YOU know "these" women wanted to be with Joseph, in his family with their husbands for eternity as a family?
Joseph had ONLY ONE WIFE because there is no proof of anything as far as I know, he had children to other women...many have claimed but have not proved as such?
I know your concerns, but really many things we do not know, nor recorded to make a complete and honest judgement of him and his times....There is much mis-information out there and it comes from people who have left and people who claim to know?
YOU have the freedom to choose, to believe or not...but if you do, ask God, because he wont lie.
mormons son this is a verse stolen from the Bible and tweeted. The plagues of Egypt are Joseph's lot for adding to Gods word like that .
"Cursed and swore about him in a very scientific manner."...odd turn of phrase. I wonder what it meant.
biggest liar in history Joseph Smith
I'm an astrologer and I think I have come up with an accurate natal chart for Smith. I believe he had a heavily Neptune-afflicted Third House. With this situation you: 1) Hear all kinds of weird tales, stories, and gossip starting young, 2) You produce weird tales and stories yourself, some of which you believe 3) You sometimes actually see and hear weird and visionary things, 4) You have a tendency to lie, as well, partly because opportunities to deceive naturally arise, and 5) You are able to create loads of buzz and gossip, and stoke delusions and talk with just little pushes of your hand...
Astrology and Mormonism score about the same on the stupid scale.
Agenda? He's presenting a narrative supported by the evidence with little regard for faith promotion. Agree or disagree with it but the so called 'agenda' isn't really relevant. Sure for faithful LDS, Mormon history is driven by the desire to make the Church "true" and so anything else is suspect but this is just a different view of the same story. Maybe Dan is merely presenting the story that he sees coming form the evidence- whether or not it conflicts with LDS faith and foundational claims.
I feel sorry for that henochparks guy... the truth is really hard on him.
Yep, he is really weird, and all that shouting! What amuses me most about his rants is that he lies so openly. I wonder if he was kicked out of the LDS church?
#
Dear Dan Vogel
You could release the closed caption so we can download subtitles for better translation in my language to Portuguese
Obviously Joseph could not tell immediately to his mother, that he got the plates, because he live with Emma :) And his mother in fact talked a lot about his visits to Kumora :)
Ñ new 0pq
I don't see any logical reason for 'God' to want any so-called sacred record to continue to be concealed form the world. If the contents were to be revealed, why not the source of the contents? The only logical reason for continuing to conceal the plates is that Joseph Smith made them and knew that revealing them would blow his story. Joseph Smith also claimed to translate Egyptian, which translation has now been shown to be a farce.
W
Vogel, how many people were in the practice of digging for lost Spanish treasure, during Smith's time? Quick answer; MANY. The claim that Joseph Smith stumbled upon the gold plates, in his treasure-seeking gig, is as weak as Moses carving the characters on the ten commandment--stone tablets, because he was around stone and therefore, should easily have known how to carve it himself.
If that is the actual hill looks like a pyramid
sabastion642 I agree. Reminds me of several of the "Indian mounds" in the u.s.
The testimony of the three witnesses who actually saw the plates is strangely missing from Vogel's narrative. I can picture him picking and choosing what he decided to add.
He has separate videos covering the witnesses.
JediMormon ...Moronism is a PROVEN fraud, and you are a schmendrick.
+Roy Chefets Or a schlemiel.
I thought the witnesses withdrew their testimony and stated that it was made up.
Those testimonies (written as one for three and one for eight) would carry far more weight if they weren't from his closest followers, who had already demonstrated their susceptibility to the story he was selling.
I would rather a testimony from an independent witness, but apparently they weren't worthy enough to see them. What kind of precedent do we have for God banning the seeing of original source documents for scriptures? I mean, they weren't written by "the finger of God", just some ancient American guys.
The problem is, if you were someone trying to perpetrate a fraud, the convenience of all these factors would certainly play in your favour.
Amazing a bunko man caused a religion and self sustaining system thriving long after he made it to hell.
It's quite amazing that MORmON Jesus is always so financially needy. Whether needing money to print the BOM or build a new Mall in SLC next to LDS Inc headquarters. MORmONS claim that their Jesus is creator of the Universe, the MORmON Jesus is supposedly smart enough to create the universe, but he can not come up with any money with out begging for it from others.
I enjoy your work Dan, but at 1:10 you really butcher the word "continuity." It's pronounced cawn-tih-new-ih-ty. You say continue-ity.
You have nothing better to bitch about? Like really dude? Go cry with Brazil you just made the score 9-1
I guess the short answer is no.
Joseph Sonners
Great answer
I had a wonderful day yesterday. The first thing I did was go to one of the temples built by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What a beautiful experience that was. I love this church.
If it works for you to revere a man who married other men's wives and copied the Masonic ceremony, go for it. Religion is all just a human construct anyway.
Cathedrals mosques an temples can be beautiful buildings but doesnt mean theyre true. also temples dont allow unbelievers in unlike the others. It means the lds church knows that its so crazy unbelievers wont believe it so they hide
@@kmills1231 they allow the public in before the dedicate them.
Acts 17:24-25
Praise to The Man that communed with Jehovah
Charlatan of fake buried treasure was his life occupation. No suprise in the way his days ended, as the list of people he had wronged was as long and heavy as the chain carried by the ghost of Jacob Marley from Dickens novel.
I am not a baptized mormon. I've been having dreams and visions. One of me burying a book of gods word , devotion and law. This for people to find to educate once it has been forgotten. When the lands grow darker. I had vision yesterday of getting away in the mountains for safety and to be closer to god. I believe joseph smith was indeed a true prophet.
+Stephanie Gone think again.
Joseph Smith the convicted conman, created mormon faith so he could have sex with 12 year old girls, marry other men's wives when their husbands were away on missions and so he could keep 10% of everyone's earnings. The cult members were promised that they would become Gods on planet kolob when they died
Read the Book of Mormon and pray for the Holy Spirit to confirm its' divinity. Joseph Smith was martyred as Prophet of God.
By “skeptics”, he means: anyone with any common sense.
Joseph where is Henry Plummer’s gold.?
Its true: Theres so many connecting dots: Some of the greatest detractors are these former members: Ask yourself why would they turn into the greatest, meanest, attackers of the Church: Ask yourself?
They wont let it go will they: Trying to disprove it: An impossible task!
Its true: l"ll say this much: lts worth testing!
Just wondering, what is the source material for this very detailed story?
The references are given under every quote.
Fast forward 170 years, my dude invented the most lucrative business in the most powerful country in the world. Weird, h
Joseph smith Andy l Ron Hubbard never really got to see the fruits of their labours
They weren’t plates...it was Tupperware...Lol
Are there people that claim to have seen the plates other tham mr smith? Does the mormon church have them in their possesion or maybe in an exibit i could visit? If so where. This would be a faith affirming experience for many members.
Yes, eleven others testified in writing that they saw the plates. Seven say they actually handled them.
Yes a bunch of Joseph's friends and family said they saw the plates. Although Martin Harris claimed he saw them with his "spiritual eyes".
Wonder who has them now
Lucy Harris smart smart smart. Martin Harris dumb.
There were NO Plates .
Joseph Smith. claimed. he found gold plates. but was it his imagination
+June Henderson No
+Aye Dee Really? Lets see, he wrote his experiences down and then had witnesses. What do you have but heresay and only accusation without fact. You have the lies of the mob and the bias media of the time and lets not forget up standing Gov. Lillburn Boggs what a great man for you, "Extermination 44", and then theirs General Wilson that said, "We Jackson County boys know how it is. We know that from the beginning the Mormons have not been the aggressors at all as it began in `33,. You Mormons were crowded to the last extreme, and compelled to self-defense; and this has been construed into treason, murder and plunder. We mob you without law; the authorities refuse to protect you according to law; you then are compelled to protect yourselves, and we act upon the prejudices of the public, who join our forces, and the whole is legalized, for your destruction and our gain. Is not this a shrewd and cunning policy on our part, gentlemen"? ..... then of course let not forget Hauns MIll 18 fathers and sons murdered in cold blood with press destroyed. Oh please, explain to me General Wilsons comment before you babble on. It will be interesting to here your response. and state the church you go to please.
Yup. Sure was.
What do you think about the hit that Joseph put out on Boggs that was almost accomplished by Porter Rockwell?
liar, he studied real gold plates, he did not stick his head in a hat and also Joseph Smith did not create the mormon faith so he could have sex with 12 year old girls, marry other men's wives when their husbands were away on missions and so he could keep 10% of everyone's earnings. The mormons were promised that they would become Gods on planet kolob when they died
Dan, is there any evidence that Joseph made up the story about the necessity to bring Alvin to the hill in 1824 before Alvin died in Nov. 1823? Is there any evidence that Joseph actually went to the hill in 1824 rather than just saying he couldn't get the plates because Alvin was dead?
Willard Chase and Joseph Knight Sr. mention an 1824 visit to the hill without Alvin. He was tome return the next year with the right person, which was finally fulfilled with Emma. I don't think the requirement to bring Alvin was mentioned until he needed a reason for failing to get the plates.
@@danvogel6802 Thanks for the info, Dan. Love your work.
@Dan Vogel I challenge you to debate on the topic titled:IS THE LDS CHURCH GOD'S TRUE CHURCH?
Do you accept my challenge yes or no?
+Rodrigo Diaz De Vivar You will lose, I can tell already.
Dan, you must have copies of diaries, journals, etc... to lay down such a great story book like narration. Who is the original author of your narration?
Did you see the list of sources at the end of this video? There's your answer.
Excellent Job! I would recommend listening in 1.25 speed. You can cover more content in a faster time.
Dan Vogel has a video where he tries to say that there were no revivals in Palmyra in 1820. Google ''Answering the CES Letter 22 to 23 First Vision PART 2'' That video clearly shows that there were revivals in Palmyra in 1820.
The Jews hated Jesus for the same reason, "He was God".
awolLDSasap you're right Jesus is God ! The very physically expressed image of God in the flesh. And he is God all by himself. No other .
sea speaks
to mountain.
thunder speaks
to sky.
they mounts up
to a fountain.
waves witness
to cloudless sky
the blue behind
endless infinity.
God Sees.
meanwhile
carnival charlatans
bark and hock wares
wheat and tares
breaking the living
bread by
appalling the dead
burying life
in endless muck.
i ask you
who are so blind
but those
who will not
and will not to see
for money?
👑
🤍
love,
david
I have been so impressed by a reading of the Book of Mormon. This is quite a remarkable and wonderful book. I love that it was translated by the gift and power of God from ancient metal plates. What a blessing to have this volume as another testament of Jesus Christ.
There were no plates used to transcribe the Book of Mormon. It was all done with a rock in a hat. The Mormon church has misrepresented the manner of the 'translation" for over a hundred years.
deskjockie49 - That makes it even more remarkable. Thank you.
I'm gonna go out on a limb tyndale and say you didn't watch the video.
Poot Daggy - You put too much trust in Mr Vogel who is himself struggling to put forth yet another theory for the incredible power of the Book of Mormon narrative. It changes lives. There are so many such theories that it boggles the mind. As I study LDS church history and put the teachings of the Book of Mormon to the test, I am amazed by its truth. This Joseph Smith character is truly exceptional. How much of the Book of Mormon have you read?
tyndale, so I assume that's a "yes" to Poot Daggy's question?
Go go gadget *compulsive lies*
The apostles and angels in heaven "worshiped" Jesus. He is "the Word, and the Word was God" who created all things in heaven and earth - Jhn 1:3, Col 1:16, Eph 3:9, Isa 40:26, Rev 4:11.... Every knee will bow to Him as the mighty God - Isa 9:6, Rev 19:1 / I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the LORD our GOD: The Bible is correct. The Holy Spirit and faithful in Christ never left the earth....Joseph lied.
WHY IS IT NO ANTI MORMON CAN REFUTE THE WRITINGS OF THE EARLY CHRISTIAN APOLOGISTS WHO BELIEVED MAN CAN BECOME A GOD?
easy: men cant become gods. there is no evidence supporting your claim. the default position is disbelief. consider your point refuted.
James tee Kirk SAYS WHO?
what evidence do we have that a man can become a god? the burden of proof is yours.
also, that comeback was old in 3rd grade.
James tee Kirk
WHAT PROOF IS IT THAT WE ARE NOT DREAMING?
BOTH LUKE AND MARK WHO WROTE THE GOSPELS LEFT THE EARLY CHURCH. THEY CAME BACK AFTER PAUL AND PETER WENT AND HELPED THEM. SOME SEVENTIES AND BISHOPS ALSO LEFT. MEN ARE WEEK.
Week?
*****
OPPS THANKS. CORRECTION WEAK.. MY SPELLING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IS WEAK!
The gospels: Mark and Luke are anonymous, and were not written by Mark and Luke.
Should have kept them. Proof but he never had any plates
It is amazing that so many gullible people gat deceived by one crafty con artist.
Is it just me or at 7:49 that photo resemble Scarlett Johansson?
Yep, I think you're right!!
He took the.m Home? I would have kept them.
+Dan Vogel
Dan, as I have pointed out elsewhere, you have a serious problem with source control.
Let me clarify this for the layman. This means that he selects sources which follow his agenda. He is unwilling to vouch for the credibility and reliability of his sources.
He is masterful with his imaginative interpretation of those sources, mingling facts with a fictional narrative. Inh his conclusions, he performs astonishing leaps of logic.
Here is a review of Vogel's books and scholarship. Decide for yourself whether he is credible.
publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1430&index=8
cdowis These are just empty assertions without examples. Reviews by apologists that don't relate to the above video is merely trying to poison the well. That apologists try to counter my works is hardly surprising.
Dan Vogel
Dan,
You and I already had a detailed discussions elsewhere, and no need to repeat myself since you again will simply "forget" the points. You take sources which have specifically addressed the vision of the Three Witnesses, and applied them to the Eight Witnesses. You then completely discount their clear statement, without any pretense of justification.
You quote a report of a "statement" by Martin Harris to a group of people. Your source is the only one who recorded this statement, despite its shocking nature. Nobody else reported this statement. And you cannot vouch for this one individual's integrity.
You then turn from scholarship to fiction, giving us a scenario of the Eight Witnesse experience taken completely from your imagination, constructed out of whole cloth.
You clearly already had a conclusion where you are desperately seeking sources to confirm that bias, regardless of their reliability. AND if you cannot find a source, YOU ARE NOT SHY IN SIMPLY USING YOUR IMAGINATION.
Anyway, we've had this conversation with specific details, and I see no need in a further discussion with you, so I give you the courtesy of having the last word.
cdowis Joseph Smith stated that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion.he sealed his testimony of the Book of Mormon with his own blood,and there were multiple eye witnesses to the Golden plates.thus, only those who hate the truth will give a thumbs up to this video
cdowis You have major problems in Mormanism matching up with the bible. Think about it . Different gospel, different Jesus. In Mormanism without Joseph Smith it all goes away. Think about it.
I mean no harm but this account makes you wonder if they did any psychotropic drugs back in this period of time. I mean are they serious?
On the word of a man who left a lot to be desired as far as credibility is concerned. A self described get rich quick schemer is the last person you would take the word of for anything.
I had not really investigated Vogel's work but have heard him quoted much and figured he had some credibility as a historian. I was disappointed after watching this video. Vogel shows here he will spin his own commentary into his discussion in order to lead the viewer to discount Joseph Smith or his supporters.
At one point, when Vogel wants to suggest the plates were made of tin or iron -- and that they might thus match the 40-50 pound estimate of Martin Harris for the plates, Vogel brings up some estimates of weight by Read Putnam who was experienced in metalworking -- that plates might be some 50% the weight of a solid block of the same metal. In Putnam's article, he suggests the plates could have been from a metal alloy. But later in the video, he has Harris commenting about the heaviness of the plates and suggesting their composition to be of gold or lead -- then Vogel proceeds to show Harris as an unreliable witness because such dimensions of plates would have weighed 201 pounds for gold or 118 pounds for lead. No mention here that the figures Vogel presents would be for a solid block of pure gold or pure lead.
And if someone is bending metal bars to fashion three rings, the most common way to do it would be to use a vise or some implement to secure one end of the bar while bending. Vogel wants to suggest Joseph Smith may have dislocated his thumb bending the rings by hand, then to cover himself invented the story of being attacked multiple times.
Vogel also wants the viewer to believe that Joseph, according to the story, RAN WITH THE PLATES CONTINUOUSLY FOR A HALF MILE before being attacked again, then CONTINUED RUNNING. This is impractical and did not likely happen the way Vogel wants you to believe. Joseph more likely ran for a short distance, rested, and walked on before the next attack. This understanding is a more practical interpretation and still fits the narrative (second-hand) as told by Joseph's mother -- especially for anyone committed to piecing together information from historical records with a careful eye.
Putnam suggested that the plates were a mixture of gold and copper, but they would either still be too heavy or of such high copper content would corrode.
My reference to Harris claiming the plates were either gold or lead and that the Smiths couldn’t afford either was to show Harris didn’t know how much gold weighs since he said they weighed forty or fifty pounds. At a 30 percent reduction for unevenness and spacing of the plates, gold might be adjusted to 140.5 pounds, lead to 80.15, which doesn’t change my observation about Harris. I didn’t question his weight estimate of between 40-50 pounds or his reliability.
On bending the rings with a vice as you suggest, I don’t know how that would work out in the woods. He could have used some kind of bending device, but still injured his thumb.
On running with the plates: This was to show that the plates would have to be on the light side of the estimates to be believable to his family.
It is interesting to note how much speculation is included in this segment. Words such as "probably" and "may have" are used quite often. Also, It's hard to trust a report that relies on Eber Howe's "Mormonism Unvailed" :( If you can find these same statements from other sources, that would improve the validity of this documentary.
Most Mormon apologists use "probably" and "may have" and "possibly" frequently in their apologetics.
Joseph Smith was a con artist 😢😢. Golden plates taken back up to Heaven. Smh 🙄 😒 Jesus Christ is the only way 😊😊. Take care folks God bless you ❤️🙏💯
Yes he did you fools trying to disprove it is like mistaking heaven for hell.
You mean spirit brother Jesus visited Padgett?
Jhn 8:24 / : for if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins.
hey dan...... idk what ur real agenda is. but this information is amazing. u must have done deep research on this... no?
THE JERUSALEM TEMPLE HAD BRONZE METAL PLATES ( AND MANY OTHER OBJECTS) LIKE THE ONES MENTIONED IN THE BOOK OF MORMON WHICH ALSO WERE IN THE TEMPLE, AND HAD WRITING ON THEM. THESE WERE FOUND AMONG THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS.
So. Writing on metal plates was known in JS time. JS had to explain how the record survived. You need to research these things more. This has been dealt with before.
Dan Vogel
HAHAHA THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS WERE FOUND IN 1947 A HUNDRED YEARS AFTER JOSEPH SMITH WAS DEAD. YOU NEED TO LEARN HISTORY.
Read what I wrote. The Dead Sea Scrolls have nothing to do with it. Bible commentaries in JS's day mention writing on metal plates, metal books with rings. Johann Jahn wrote in 1823 that “those [ancient] books, which were inscribed on tablets of wood, lead, brass, or ivory, were connected together by rings at the back, through which a rod was passed to carry them by” (Jahn’s Biblical Archaeology, Thomas C. Upham, trans. [Andover, 1823], 95-96). Cf. The Evening and the Morning Star 1 (Jan. 1833), in which W. W. Phelps quotes from Jahn’s book. Thomas Hartwell Horne, An Introduction to the Study of Bibliography, 2 vols. (London, 1814), 1:33-35, discusses the ancient use of lead books and brass and copper plates; Claudius Buchanan, The Star in the East, 10th Amer. ed. (Boston, 1811), 48-49, says that the Jews of Cochin, India, who Buchanan believed were remnants of the lost ten tribes, kept a history of their journey to those parts on “plates of brass”; Bernard de Montfaucon, Antiquity Explained, and Represented in Sculptures, 2 vols. (London, 1721), 2:241-42, contains a description and drawing of an Egyptian gnostic book of lead. There also claims of finding copper plates inscribed with characters in the mounds in North America.
Dan Vogel
FOR MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED YEARS ANTI MORMONS LAUGHED AT THE BOOK OF MORMONS CLAIM THAT IT WAS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN ON PLATES OF GOLD AND THAT THE HEBREWS HAD ALSO WROTE ON BRASS PLATES. HOWEVER FOUND AMONG THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS WAS THE SO CALLED COPPER SCROLL (WHICH WAS ACTUALLY BRONZE PLATES ). IN BOTH CASES THE BRONZE PLATES AND THE BRASS PLATES WERE FROM JERUSALEM. THE BOOK OF MORMON CLAIMS THE ORIGINAL ALPHABET OF THE BOOK OF MORMON WAS REFORMED EGYPTIAN AND IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE. ANTI MORMONS LAUGHED CLAIMING THE HEBREWS WOULD NEVER USE EGYPTIAN TO PRODUCE AN ALPHABET THUS THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS REFORMED EGYPTIAN.. HOWEVER THE GREAT EGYPTOLOGIST FLINDERS PETRIE, BIBLICAL SCHOLAR WILLIAM F. ALBRIGHT, AND MODERN EGYPTOLOGIST JOHN DARNELL HAVE DISCOVERED THAT THE HEBREW/PHOENICIAN ALPHABET WAS CREATED BY REFORMING EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPHICS AND USING HEBREW LANGUAGE. THIS IS EXACTLY AS THE BOOK OF MORMON DESCRIBES!!! ANTI MORMONS HIDE THESE FACTS!!!!!
Is he the biggest conman of all time? You make it sound like he was
I love how you give equal weight to every bit of evidence even though they conflict. For instance, you include quotes of 3rd hand sources from enemies of the Church and Joseph Smith that say Joseph Smith admitted he was a fraud with the use of his stone, but then list non biased sources which say he did find out things with the use of his stone. Of course you then conclude based on the evidence that he was a fraud???
Likewise, your constant use of vague terms Like: Probably... May have been... is likely.... Could be... to prove your case... This does not impress me. Would you allow Mormons to use such terms in proving their position? Somehow I think not.
+JEM Seven
Sorry, I don't believe in magic underwear, neither does the LDS Church... Never has. I guess that's just another of the thousands of false statements one has come to expect from AntiMormons.
LOL.... That has got to be the stupidest response I have ever seen..... does that mean if I was to tie a string around my finger to remind me of something; and then I remember it later because of the string, then the string is somehow MAGICAL! LOL... Really????
It protects you against temptation because it serves to remind you of the covenants you made with God, much the same way wearing a cross does to a Christian.... there is nothing physical or magical about that. Yes there are some that while wearing a cross or carrying a Bible into battle, it has stopped a bullet; that doesn't give the cross or the Bible any power. God could of simply of used those means to show forth His power. My sister for instance was in a plane crash where she received 3rd degree burns everywhere but in a certain area where she was wearing a certain article of clothing. However, if you were to ask her, she would tell you the garments had nothing to do with it, it was the power of God which spared her for His purpose, not the cloth or the symbols she was wearing.
Just when i thought you couldn't say anything dumber... you do.
The irony is that the only one that is talking about... or who has talked about "magic underwear", is you! Nowhere in any statement from the church does it say that the garment has any magical or supernatural powers, I even stated that have never believed it did, and that my sister doesn't believe so either, even though she alone could make a case for it. I simply don't limit God, and how He wants to display His Power like you do... If God wants to show Himself as a burning bush, who am I to argue that He can not... I just don't give any Power to the bush, nor would I worship the bush...
Read Matthew 9:20-22... was the healing Power in Christ? did it come from the garment Christ was wearing? or was it in the women's faith? where did the supernatural power come from?
+JEM Seven
I'm sorry... You're just too stupid to have any further communication with.... Par for the course for an AntiMormon I guess.
***** "temper tantrums" Really????
LOL... I do this for the fun of it, I am not here to defend my church. All I do is expose how silly your arguments are.
Dan Vogel is a scholar and excellent researcher. I don’t believe, as others have speculated, that he is a secret Lamanite.
The greatest con man!!
👍
Joe Smith an family were better than Monty Pyton!!!
I love church who olso loves it