So, I was listening to this episode on my way to therapy, and my god, the conversation you guys had felt like a therapy session in itself lol. But seriously though, this is legit one of the best episodes of this series you’ve done. With regards to the unlikeability of certain characters, I admit that I am 100% biased in my opinions about this game, but that has never bothered me, for several reasons. For one, I feel like certain people expect main characters to be 100% likeable, or well-adjusted, because that makes them more relatable to the audience. You mentioned Evangelion in this episode - there’s a whole contingent of people who hate Shinji, for instance, because he’s emo, and he won’t get in the robot. And like, that’s literally the entire point of the show. Episode 3 is similar, in that respect. I fully admit that some of the things the characters do are cruel, and perhaps hard to understand at first, but we have to remember, for most of these characters, we’re seeing them at perhaps their absolute lowest point, after what’s already been a lifetime of tragedy and trauma. I applaud Takahashi for writing these characters in this way, because he’s portraying the aftermath of trauma honestly, warts and all. Having the characters be “likeable” would, at least to me, come across as disingenuous. Sorry that was a lil bit longer that I was expecting lol. One more random comment - I don’t think Wilhelm’s name is meant to suggest Wilhelm Wundt. I’ve always interpreted his name to be another reference to Nietzsche, as Nietzsche’s middle name was Wilhelm. Plus, given what his plans are, being named after Nietzsche is fitting to his character. But that’s just me.
I feel like one of the big sticking criticisms is that the when you do write characters like this, it severely limits who can appreciate them and it leads into this behavior of people that are like "Well you just didn't get it so I'm smarter than you at this" Evangelion fans exemplify this entirely in my experience. That said, I don't think that really takes away from the people who really do get a lot out of this. One of the things about games as art is that not everyone has to have the same taste in it. For example Silent Hill 2 is a lauded masterpiece, but for me I just found it to be okay at best. I feel like all of the Xeno games are good, but Saga's look at broken people really resonated with me at the time I played it.
@@aidanuzuki3449 Oh I agree 100%. These sorts of stories, for a multitude of reasons, are just not going to be for everyone, and that’s fine. I’m glad you brought up those elitist fans, cuz they piss me off too - like, these stories are difficult by design, I’m not gonna get on anyone’s case for not wanting to relive all these fictional traumas. And on the other side, if you’re one of those people who just won’t connect with this game, just admit that straight up, and if you want to levy criticism, at the very least, be willing to engage with the story on its own terms
I 100% agree with this comment. In many cases I find the most memorable characters in these types of stories are the flawed and/or "unlikable" characters who are carrying a lot of unresolved trauma underneath the surface. And if you think about it, many popular JRPG characters have something from their past that they have to work through and grow from. But developers often give that character a likable personality/traits in order to endear the audience to that character first, before revealing their character flaws and traumas later on. Meaning only AFTER you've been given a reason to root for that character on their journey, only then do the writers lay their flaws on the table. Think like Cloud from FFVII, or Wakka from FFX. But what's a lot more rare (and risky) is to present the flaws/"unlikability" of the character front and center first, and then ask the audience "Are you still rooting for this person to succeed even though you don't like their behavior/personality?" Examples I think of off the top of my head: Shion in XenoSaga, Luke in Tales of the Abyss, and most of the cast of FFXIII. And as far as I can tell, for a lot of people the answer is simply: "No. I need there to be some endearing or respected aspect to the character shown to me first in order for me to care about them becoming a better person later on." I find that kind of sad in a way... Like most of the people in real life who have a deep unresolved trauma holding them back are more likely to come off closer to a Shion or Shinji rather than a Cloud. And what does that say about us as a society if most us are only invested in someone's personal growth if we find that personal likable? Like we really only have empathy for someone to become a better person if we find them likable in some way? Is our capacity for human empathy really that shallow? What if most of the people out there who actually need our support to overcome unresolved trauma have personality flaws that make them unlikable in many interactions?
We all know if Shion and Kevin were sitting in a tree, Takahashi would make it the tree of Sephirot and you'd have to piece together based on their eye color which step of the alchemical process of the creation of the Philosopher's Stone they represented in order to determine which german Philosophers' concepts are clashing and whether they work in tandem or oppose one another. The run-on sentence was intentional lol
You facetime her, and see her wearing goggles. She already knows. She's so proud, she'd relive this moment in an eternal loop of life and death just for that call.
I loved all of the Xenogears nods throughout Episode III-Seibzehn & Maria, the party’s omnigears, Weltall and Id-Weltall, the G-Elements… I geeked out every time I came across one throughout the game.
As to the point the commenter made about feeling like they’d missed a game between II and III, I had a similar feeling when I first played it back in the day. Most of my questions were answered or at least easily guessed at by the end of the first dungeon, but I remember it feeling a bit jarring. I was more shocked that Shion managed to keep the Dinah after quitting Vector (though it seems obvious now that Wilhelm would want to ensure that she could keep it).
55:30 yeah, I had a thought about this scene and linking it to Fei and Elly’s situation in Xenogears. Living over and over again, hoping to find that joy, that happiness (only for it to get ruined time after time until they find a way to overcome the cycle itself). I know that -Saga is a different IP from -Gears, but scenes like this really make it feel like the two were intended to be parts of a greater whole. Like the wave existence/U-DO listened to Shion and tried to help Abel/Elly fulfill that desire. Also, it was excellent early foreshadowing for Wilhelm’s plan. It makes me wonder how many times U-DO had repeated that moment and heard the same answer or variations of it.
I really love how Virgil, Feb and his ume addiction is expanded in these scenes. Him slowly letting go off his hatred. But the tragedy of febs death undid it all and made him full villain in ep1. Especially since realians are what killed her. I empathize with being so close to thinking one way but circumstance undo it all. And its even worse because it confirms his preconvictions. To his old self/perspective he was proven right by the realians going rogue, which just makes it all the more unlikely and tragic he'll ever change his thoughts on them. The difference between ep1 Virgil, lovey dovey Virgil and blue testament Virgil all show these states and mentalities grow. I love it.
(1) One thing I really like about these games is how they show, structurally, the effect that trauma has on a person’s sense of time. The theme of Xenosaga is about the will to power to move past the traumas faced by an individual in the past, and that comes through clearest from the strategic placement of Miltia. Miltia and the Miltian Conflict is where many of the characters’ sense of time stop and what they must confront in order to move on with their lives. The constant revisiting of Miltia only truly ends when we, along with Shion and her team, come to realize the truth about the conflict. It is by facing up to that truth and incorporating it within that it ceases to be an outside spectre of torment, mentioned only in passing whispers. (2) In that vein then, I think the “time travel” plot captures very well, as you said, the emotional response that people often have to trauma, wishing that they could go back and wish it all away. By dangling the prospect of changing the future in front of the characters, Xenosaga III is playing with another Nietzschean concept: “ressentiment,” an awareness of one’s inability against time and how one is acting out in light of that inability. (3) I actually like that Kevin was presented as being an obnoxious jerk. While it has been rightly mentioned that Shion is excusable because of her feelings of attachment towards him, the other party members quickly come to a realization that Kevin is far from this paragon of virtue that he has been built up to be over the course of the games. It also casts light and doubt, I think, on Shion’s memories, and whether she is properly remembering her experiences with Kevin as they truthfully occurred, or whether they, too, are partly the fruit of her wishful thinking. For what it’s worth, I think Shion clings to Kevin not just because he represents an idealized version of the scientist, and therefore a “redeemed” version of her father whom she remembers in some vague way to be problematic. There is this awareness that Kevin is key to the unlocking of her past, and Shion clings onto him both as a reminder of her past and as a way to overcome the past through his strength, initially.
Good points. The concept of an unreliable narrator isn't really spoken about with respect to this game, but looking at the overall Shion - Kevin relationship I can totally see the possibility that some of the flashbacks we see with her when he comes off like this really upstanding flawless guy are instead idealized memories of hers that don't really reflect what happened.
@@quiddity131 Yes, it ties in very well to the exploration of trauma, brokenness, and time that Xenosaga incidentally conducts over the course of the three games.
first of all, everything you spoke about regarding the suicidal idealization spoke so much to me. i feel like i've had some very similar experiences and thoughts and hearing you talk about it meant the world to me and made me feel so seen. in a weird way, i had a smile across my face as you discussed it since i was able to understand and relate so much and on one other note, i really appreciate how you dig into all the elitism in the fandom(s). they're all amazing games with their own flaws and many many more successes. the failures of xenogears and xenosaga (these do not mean they were bad or overall failed games!!!) helped the teams create xenoblade into what it is and unarguably, you have to agree that the success has finally shown! learning from past mistakes is a big part of the overall xeno themes and i think sitting in the back and just getting mad at the new games just goes against one of the things you're meant to get from the games. you don't gotta like them of course, but to dismiss them for what are honestly very trivial things just really only hurts yourself. anyway, just loved the way you explained it. i'm also not one to comment on youtube videos much but this channel prompts me to more than almost any other also adding to the beautiful stuff you talked about at the end with jin's quote, when i came out of a horrible life situation and started to want to live again, one of the things i would say to reframe it all was that i regret nothing. there are many mistakes i've made and things i didn't do and while i would love to be able to change those things, i know myself now and i'm happy and proud of who i am. i'm so far from perfect and there are things i will never do because of choices i made, but that's okay. i've learned and made progress in other things and without that trauma i wouldn't be here now. i can't really want to change my past; i'm happy where i am and where i'm going and that is enough
Oh, I forgot something awesome in the last episode! I was replaying all Xenogames with a friend. (spoilers for Xenogears) And I thought it was so awesome that in almost every era, Fei, or Abel had this artistic skill and drew or painted images of Elly. Okay you only saw the current Fei paint other images and not Elly. But Lacan painted the portrait of Sophia in the church and Kim painted too. And in Xenosaga you see Abel coming in and drawing an illustration of Nephilim on the ground who is basically Elly, too.
I'm really happy to hear that you're open to giving Xenoblade 2 another chance. From what little you've said about it so far, it sounds like you and I have a lot of the same problems with it (and they are big problems), but the good parts it has are just amazing and plentiful enough that I think they outweigh the bad.
As someone who has had many issues with that game and has given it more than a fair shot. Would you mind sharing the good parts you found in it? Quick edit: hope this didn't come across as hostile in some way. I genuinely would like to know.
@@cheshireimp493 I don't wanna go into too much detail, but a lot of the characters are really good. Most of the main cast all revolve around the central theme of "How do you move on from trauma?" and the ways the game explores how each of them respond differently to trauma is really cool. Rex, Nia, Jin and Amalthus are all standouts.
@@photon_breakIn a lot of ways it feels like it is giving saga 3s theme another go and I love it for that. The way that Rex is used to get these characters to reflect in change is beautiful and it's where blade2s story is at its strongest (when it wants to be) The moment the story clicked for me is realizing that the decision to make Rex a child isn't just some lame "to appeal to a broad anime fanbase" but is instead to reflect how a naive child is probably the only type of person to be able to challenge these people in their ways of thought
I appreciate your guys' conversations on if reliving life over and over again just to experience the happy moments. I feel just because of those kinds of discussions, these games resonate so much with players, like myself. I think Xenoblade 3 does a great job at reexamining and expanding on the concept of eternal reoccurrence. There's a lot to think about, and just the fact that these games impact us in these ways, where we take the time to reflect on it, is a testament to the art of it. Great episode guys
I am always enamored by characters like Virgil who have such strong and defensive personalities, because it nearly always stems from a focal point of extreme distress that they are internally struggling with. For Virgil, his personality highlights a very interesting human phenomena, when one can reject and even resent that which saved them
I want to say some of what I thought about shion, before getting to the end of the game as to put a pin in it. I think Shion’s actions towards Kevin make sense. In any abusive relationship, the victim will fixate on the positive traits of their partner. This is why I think they showed a more annoying Kevin in opposition to the dream of Kevin in Shion’s head. Victims will bargain with abusers to change, and ignore their flaws and retreat from friends and family because those friends and family will state incongruency with the abusers actions and abusers perceived actions in the victims head. on average, It takes seven times for a victim to leave their abuser to actually stay away from them. It is incredibly difficult to leave a loved one, Shion is no exception. just some thoughts to think about going into the end of the game.
I think the reason why Shion is so enamored with Kevin is because he was the one thing that provided happiness and safety to Shion. From the beginning, her life was tragic, and Kevin provided the one respite from that. That's why she's willing to do the things she does later in the game just to get that one feeling of happiness back.
I played Xenosaga around 2011 which was a bit later than most. Many fansites were dead at that time. By the time I found out about it XenoTensei and Godsibb, two well known fansites, did not exist. The games blew my mind at what could be depicted in a videogame and eventually it led me to play Xenogears and Xenoblade after. In regards to personal preference, I do prefer Saga and Gears a lot. All Xeno games are great though and they all have their own charm and also their own flaws. Perhaps it could be read that because of the development Xenosaga is maybe the most flawed. I still feel like they were able to accomplish really incredible things even if it was really cryptic and messy at times. The characters in Xenoblade don't really do it for me, but that's okay! It's an entirely different game, with its own identity trying to do its own things! For most people and the Xeno games there is usually one game that people play at a very particular time in their lives when they need to experience it and that game becomes their favorite. The fandom infighting is really annoying when we're all really liking the same stuff just different versions of it.
Yeah I endeavor to not be elitist about it...but I have continually bounced off Xenoblade. I will confidently say that I think II is a terrible game, but I and III I can respect even though I haven't been able to get into them. I was always a bit more drawn to X simply because it has a more Xenosaga-y artstyle, but I don't have a Wii U and I know it's not *actually* like Xenosaga anyway...
@@cloudkitt Xenoblade X looks more like Xenosaga's style as they brought back Kunihiko Tanaka, the original character designer from Xenogears and Xenosaga Episode I. He hasn't been used much on the other Xenoblade games beyond designing some of the cameo blades in Xenoblade 2.
I want to point out how Shion's romantic flashback with Kevin and her subsequent desire to be in that moment forever is where Xenosaga turns Nietzsche on its head. This is where eternal recurrence becomes the feminine destructive and overly sheltering safety, and breaking out of it by killing "god" gives the game the imagery of the "breaking out of the womb" archetype. The game is about "being born" - and by being born, also being fated to die, as all true living beings, but accepting that and choosing it anyway.
Just putting this out there but i think Professor B and Mother Fortune (looks like the spinning Eternal Recurrence device) from Xenoblade X (side quest characters though) is just there to make fun of the entire Xenosaga series, doing philosophy the somewhat correct way! 😂 also the memory wiping rabbit hole discussion shall be saved for the inevitable Xenoblade 2 podcast with all the Blades’ memories being wiped as they are reborn from a Driver and something something Core Crystal something living 500 years something tragedy! 😅 ...and much gratitude for this Podcast! I am only halfway..
I did make the connection pretty early on, largely because I was a big fan of Prince of Persia The Sands of Time, and Yuri Lowenthal voices the prince and Kevin (and by extension the Red Testament). So I did keep recognizing his voice 😅 I don't think I noticed instantaneously, but definitely in the wait between XS1 and 2.
Yuri Lowenthall, ladies and gentlemen. He's famous now for voicing Insomniac's Spider-Man, but he's been a top tier VA since the 2000s. I think this is one of his most overlooked early roles.
Pretty sure this was the first time I heard Yuri Lowenthal in something, he is quite well known in anime dubs for voicing characters like Simon in Gurren Lagann and Suzaku in Code Geass. After hearing him in those shows I grew more appreciation for him here in Xenosaga.
A small correction from the previous video. Kevin did not give the pendant to Shion he died with it and she kept it as a memento, you can see this flashback in ep I after Shion realizes KOS-MOS is activated. T-elos also shows you that she is a machine enhanced human in her first fight with KOS-MOS. She bleeds by her cheek. In this fight KOS-MOS also has the same slash but on the opposite side of the face wich made me think of Squall and Seifer from FF8. The reason why the 13th Zohar emulator does not link with Abel is because his will is for the purpose of the real Zohar. His will is rejecting the link because it emulates the same conditions. But the power of the real Zohar and U-DO cannot be emulated or replicated. His appearance in Shions dreams gives it away that he can link with U-DO or is a part of U-DO... He is unnable to communicate in the real world just like Sakura.His reason is different almost like he is sealed within himself. And I think Juli Mizrahi took him under her wing because she had been through it with Sakura in the past. This one is related to testaments. I don't know if anyone else noticed since the first episode that they are classified as a G type enemy and in the ending you will get more clarity on who can meet the conditions to become a testament, where their powers come from and why are they no longer humans.
Abel literally IS U-DO. Or to be more specific, its human avatar and representation in the lower number domain. Abel's Ark, on the other hand, is U-DO's Gnosis avatar. It's a "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" kind of trinity.
I just want to say I always appreciate the passion from you guys especially Mike. Every time Mike expresses himself I resonate in a weird way like huh that's probably what I look/seem like when I passionately talk to my friends. Much love Mike and Casen always!
I want to give praise to Mike for both IMO accurately summarizing Xeno fandom and also having the strength of character to play xenoblade 2 again and give it a fair shake. I admit I quit the first time I played that game but after the XB1 rerelease on the switch I played through XB1,2 and X and all their DLCs. Most of my appreciation for the XB2 story come from the last few chapters of that game and the added context from the DLC. I hate to say this but I think all the DLC expansions for the Blade games are kinda required reading. Future Connected maybe the least, but I do think that game gives good screen time to characters in XB1 that felt a bit short changed in the base game. It's sort of like how you could blitz the Xenoblade X story and get the plot but all the real world building and character work happens in the side content.
Agreed. My impression of Mike's views on Xenoblade before he brought up the likelihood of them covering it someday was that he hated the series due to how Xenoblade 2 comes across and especially hated the fact that they went back and remade Xenoblade 1 to make it look more stylistically like 2. At least that's my memory, I could my misremembering. I'm glad to know that they will cover them someday. As much as I enjoy the overall series and the individual game I don't know if there really is a point to cover X. It leans into the MMO style more than any other Xenoblade game, to the level that beyond some world building there is very little to the main plot.
The talk on people's response to trauma makes me think of Viktor Frankl, a holocaust survivor and the author of Man's Search for Meaning, where he talks about how finding hope and meaning in your suffering keeps you alive. I also think of Ruth Sienkiewicz-Mercer, who was completely paralyzed and abused for 16 years by Belchertown State School who thought she must be dumb if she can't move or speak. But, she came out of it and started communicating to people with her eyes and ended up being a disability rights activist. Her friend helped her write a book and it's inspiring since she's a beacon of positivity, that even through all the horror she went through. In my mind, I feel the best way to respond to trauma is to make your suffering worth it by helping other people who have the same problems. And, focusing on gratitude, consciously, every day is so important, like Mike said. It's crazy how we take for granted basic things like our freedoms, senses, and motor functions. People with so much less can still be happy, and that just goes to show that it's your perspective, not your circumstance. Still, way easier said than done. Like, I had a moment where I finally learned this concept and it made so much sense when I was happy... Then, when I was depressed again, I was like, "Yeah right, as if it was that easy!" LOL! It's unfortunate how blinded we get by depression. I love what Mike said that it's not about saying, "come on, get yourself together", but just that it IS something that can be done. Don't beat yourself up if you're having trouble being grateful, though. Just try your best. I wish anyone reading this the best of luck overcoming whatever is holding you down. Honestly, this podcast is one of the things I'm most grateful for these days. That I'm alive in a time where I'm able to listen to you talk and appreciate these games. Like even 20 years ago this would be impossible and 20 years from now it might've slipped my radar entirely. I can't thank you guys enough. And all of your supporters that make this possible. And thank you, Mike, for the work you do in your job, it's so important.
Another detail for those that want more of Jin, be sure to get the 8 federal reports during the conflict and decipher them on the Elsa to get much more info of what Jin knew, his role and thoughts on it all!
1:08:00 I'm glad you're still here Mike and that youre in a place to talk about your experience openly. I think its not only healthy but is also helpful to others who might feel the same way but also think theyre alone.
"I don't like musicals." I don't either, but Blues Brothers is my favorite movie of all time. It's kind of amazing how there can always be exceptions to things painted with a broad brush.
Mike, I have watched this channel for many years. I never knew about your experience with those thoughts and the attempt you made that thankfully wasn't successful, so I really felt a strong desire to tell you how grateful I am that you are still here. You giving us yourself, your perspective, your thoughts, and your experience of the world that you share through your own unique self is something I can't really find among people I know in real life. I consider this channel that you guys created as something so rare and precious, something to be treasured. And so are the both of you, and the bonds you have created, something that should be treasured. You have extended those bonds to all of us that are here. Thank you for creating a space where we can sit by the warmth of this familiar fire of the never ending quest for understanding. Thank you. I appreciate you and I am grateful you guys are around. Please don't forget it.
Great episode as always. I hope you reconsider doing only one more episode to cover the rest of the game (not counting your special episode after) as you haven't even hit the climax of disc 1 yet. Given that you got two and a half hours out of what is probably the least discussion worthy part of the game this time I can only imagine how long it will take to discuss all the big things the rest of the way. Re: Xenogears/Saga vs. Blade, I am a grizzled veteran who played Xenogears a mere year after release and played the Xenosaga games relatively soon after release as well and consider Xenogears my favorite video game of all time. If one was going to be a purist/gatekeeper over Gears/Saga versus Blade it would be someone like me. But that's not my mentality over it. I love them all. It is quite clear through the experience of how Xenosaga got made and how sideways things went that Takahashi's ambitions were too great and the method of story versus gameplay had gone way too far in the story direction (although I would argue it was at its worst in Episode I and improved in II and III). As much as I love the story of Xenosaga the method of how the story was handled had become detrimental to the overall experience. These are video games, not novels or anime. Xenoblade didn't even start as a "Xeno" game. It started as Takahashi going in a totally different direction, a game called Monado that was focused far more on world building and exploration than having a really complex plot like Gears/Saga. By that point it had become necessary for him to go in a different direction. I don't think we're here today with 4 base Xenoblade games, 3 DLC expansion games and most likely a fifth in the next few years if he approached it just like he did with Xenosaga. No way are things as successful. Is the story as deep in Blade as is it is in Gears/Saga for me? No. Especially the first game and X. But are they great games? Hell yes. Are they more fun to play than Gears/Saga? Hell yes. And besides X, which doesn't have much of a main story, the stories for the Xenoblade games are still better than the vast majority of the games out there. I can see a hardcore Gears/Saga fan being disappointed on that front with the first game and X, but 2 and 3 have very strong stories. Even with the cringe factor at times in 2 which I think people tend to be too harsh on. People often forget that Gears and Saga have cringe stuff in them too. Remember Chu Chu on a crucifix?).
I'm really worried about them covering the end of Disc 1 and Abels Ark AND Michtam not that I believe they can't do it, just that they might not get to talk about some really cool stuff.
About that overcomplicted line again: I think there is a reason why it’s so complicated and they use all these technical terms. You have to remember what they are doing to Cecily and Cathe there is super effed up. So Suou uses all this tech jargon to burry up the morale under it. He even has his eyes closed in that little character portrait in the lower left when saying those words. It shows how he is building up a wall around him to shield himself from all that responsibility.
I think key to unlocking the meaning behind this game and some of the greater truths the narrative is trying to convey is to compare the fundamental tenets of Gnosticism to fundamental tenets of Jewish Mysticism, specifically the Kabbalah of Isaac Luria. In both systems a fundamental schism occurs in the creation of the universe that removes humanity from the direct presence of God. In Gnosticism it is Yaldabaoth (the demiurge) being birthed by Sophia and through abject ignorance using his lesser powers to create the material universe, thinking himself to be its god. In the Kabbalah, in the process of creating Adam Kadmon (primordial man), Or Ein Sof (the light of the infinite / undivided) is contracted (tzimtzum). During the process vessels (sefirot), meant to house the divine light shatter, shevirat ha-kelim, resulting in the broken husks (kellipot) to rain down on creation. It is at this point that traditional narrative picks up, specifically Tohu and Bohu, chaos and void, words used in the opening verses of Genesis to describe the after effects of the catastrophe of the first creation. All that is to say is in both Gnosticism and Jewish Mysticism the initial creation of the world was a result of a cosmic catastrophe. But knowing all that what do you do? This is where the two systems greatly diverge. Whereas in most schools of Gnosticism the fundamental viewpoint is that the created world is ultimately wrong, an illusion created by the demiurge to trap us in, a false reality in which we are the created and the demiurge is our ultimate God / the primary mover / the true creator. To the Gnostics, we live in a perverted version of reality, if one can even call it reality, and the ultimate goal is escape, to reject it. Asceticism taken to its most extreme conclusion. Whereas the Kabbalists would agree the world exists in an imperfect and broken state, most systems of Kabbalah would argue against the ascete as being very foolish. In systems of Isaac Luria and the Chabad-Lubavitch, creation is in a constant cycle of Tohu and Tikun, chaos (destruction) and restoration. The goal of a student of the Kabbalah is not to escape from / reject the world, but rather to be an active participant in its restoration, Tikkun ha-Olam. By locating the kellipot, the shattered vessels, sefirot, and elevating them through our talents and good deeds (mitzvah), each one of us is an active participant in the restoration of the world, upon which the cycle repeats, but in an ever upward, in spiritual terms, process. A carpenter might find a broken tree branch, but using his talents fashion it into a chair, that chair brings others comfort, offering them rest. In that example, the broken tree branch is kellipot, a shattered vessel trapping a piece of Or Ein Sof, light of the infinite. The trapped divine light is released by a individual expressing their God given talent, performing a mitzvah, thereby restoring a part of the light back into the world, Tikkun ha-Olam. Whereas one system rejects, the other system embraces. Whereas one system seeks to return the works to its point before the beginning the other system sees hope, even in the smallest actions, having an effect on the greater whole. “Even the smallest ripple can spread throughout the whole.” Whereas one faction of the game embraces the world the other rejects the world, or sees it as too corrupt as having any chance of being allowed to continue. The funny thing is that even in their delusion, the faction that rejected the world was still participating in Tikun ha-Olam as in Kabbalah, every cycle completed is one step closer to restoration. There is a line said by one of the major proponents of the Gnostic viewpoint in this game that even seems to slightly suggest they reluctantly accept that this is probably the case and come to accept that maybe the time has come to let things play out versus try to escape the cycle. All that is to say is that by reading nunerous books on both Jewish Mysticism and Gnosticism it is hard to experience Xenosaga without seeing it as a cosmic battle between the Gnostic and Kabbalistic viewpoints of what it means to be a participant in a broken universe. Let alone a lot of the forefathers of analytical psychology and especially psychoanalysis, were keenly aware of Lurianic Kabbalah, especially Jung. To me, Xenosaga is ultimately a repudiation of ascetism in favor, instead, of following the path of radical empathy and using ones God-given talents, whatever they may be, to create the small ripples that will eventually lead to a better future.
Not the Episode I expected but a very good one explaining and clarifying a lot of things and starting to reach some conclusions about the series! Thanks for bringing up my and other comments and sorry for distracting you with some minor details, haha. I'm surprised it took this long to figure out the red testament for sure, I already assumed it from more or less the start and when Virgil was revealed in Episode I I knew for sure. Also a very easy to forget scene in EpI is when Yuli mentions a 14 year old boy working with Joachim and maybe slipping into Vector, his age matches up with that of Kevin (He would have been 28 in Episode I) I was planning to ask you/the watchers about the fact that the whole series ends up revolving around Miltia but you already mentioned that! It was very surprising and impressive to me how they managed to do that and how we see it from so many angles not to mention the whole war build up in EpIII that might very well be my favorite section in any game. Just like a trauma we keep visiting that cursed place!
I'm pretty sure what they were trying to do with Kevin in the Miltia sequence is present him as a brat, but also show how Shion planted the seeds that'd change him later. Presenting that maybe he could change and be someone maybe we could like and find that he might have a good idea or a fracture that could be opened to make him realize he's wrong. Problem is I think they ran out of time, it was a bit too late, and he's done a lot of irredeemable things that'd makes at least me feel like "No not possible." BUT, he's not the worst I've ever seen in that aspect, I've seen way worse potential heel-face-turns.
Fascinating discussion! I love that Xenosaga is still being discussed years after its release. I played through the series at launch because I was a big fan of Xenogears, and both are still living rent free in my mind. Thank you for sharing your personal stories in the context of these complicated, often flawed characters.
I love the Xeno games as a whole, but the super obtuse dialogue is definitely rough, so I'm glad you guys are bringing it up. Due to the extra factor of translation, I do have to wonder how much the fault lies in the original dialogue vs the localisation. Having a very basic skill at Japanese, I don't think I have the skill to recognise if the original dialogue has this clunky feeling to native speakers or if it's just a difficult sentence to translate to English with all the concepts thrown around. Considering how often it happens in these games, I'm leaning towards it could be a problem of the original dialogue but it's hard to know. It would be interesting to ask a Japanese player if they feel the same about this exchange and scenes like this as a whole.
The matter on Shion and Kevin behavior is very important because it teaches you that you shouldn't judge a person by your immediate image of them since you don't really know their background or why do they act that way. I have met people who on a first interaction come out as rude but when you get to know them, they can be really benevolent and loyal. On the other hand you have lots of individuals who come out as "nice" but you will eventually find their true self as the worst selfish and backstabbing.
phenomenal episode again guys thank you. I feel every week of this 3rd game im enlightened just to hear theses discussions and be learning as much as i am.
That whole conversation at 1:30:00 reminds me so much of ff13 There’s a whole cast with complex motivations and the way a lot of the characters act makes a lot of sense in context, but none of it matters because so much of the cast is so unlikeable lol Hope in particular really acts the way a 15 year old would act with everything that happened to him, but all you’ll ever see is how much people hate him because he complains too much and every sentence out of his mouth for the first half of the game is is being moody
Shion is attached to a memory of Kevin and doesn't want to let go, i believe thats the point, her obession. Also probably because her life was (at least from her drama queen point of view) all about suffering and Kevin represents a moment of what she percieved as bliss. But she didn't really knew him, it was infatuation.
17:30 - 26:00 that was a fantastic explanation of the issue of getting my friends into anime/jrpgs, etc. There are sincere powerful messages and themes mixed in with their ways of doing style, levity and comedy that almost because of their exotic, non-western way of doing them help to get more out of them for some people. Like for a while Dragon Quest sold a lot more that Final Fantasy did in Japan (not sure if it still does), and it was mainly because of the intentional western style built into it, but done from a Japanese point of view and Toriyama's touch helped normalize it for them. Or how for a long while how the Japanese loved British styles, you can see a capsule of that in games like Raidou Kuzunoha, Shadow Hearts 2 and The Great Ace Attorney. There's a cultural gap that can become a barrier to some people, but once things can click on both sides, like the nuggets of interest you mentioned, that can create bridges to understanding and receiving messages. That's been the hardest thing introducing great games to my friends who don't know what they're looking at and just don't get it. And then when I get it to click, I get amazing results. My closest friend has been avoiding Final Fantasy forever. He started visiting me more often after work and just sitting in my room doing nothing so I used the time showed him FFX all the way through, he's in love with it now.
I'm not an expert in Greek, but I believe "cosmos", besides referring to the universe, means order, the opposite of chaos. We always used to talk about it on the gamefaqs forums back in the days of XS1, having 2 mysterious characters, one named chaos, and the other named order. We had no idea what the nature of their relationship was, but they were clearly connected.
2:02:29 THANK YOU! Xeno fans can be so annoying and purists, Xenosaga fans expect one thing, xenogears fans expect another thing, and xenoblade fans want a whole another thing. i'm like 'why are you still here if the next game is not like gears/saga/blade???' I like xenogears but i don't expect a remake ever happening. And if it happens i know it will need a new writting/script because some things in that game did not age well and it will need some obvious changes and i'm okay with that, but i'm pretty sure some purists will not like it 🙄 xenosaga fans want soraya saga back but what if she doesn't want to be back???
What i'm trying to say is stop expecting the next game will go as you want it to be because let's be honest that's never gonna happen. Each person has their own wishes, it's impossible to Tetsuya Takahashi to grand all these wishes in one game. Or ever.
Given Takahashi's position within Monolith Soft and the games themselves, I find it unlikely that Soraya Saga wanted to be back and was rejected. I know she had a very bad experience when Episodes II and III were being made/released such as fans blaming her for things that were no fault of her whatsoever. She may have decided to just walk away entirely from any story role.
Timestamps: 1. *Story Summary* (0:00:00) 2. *Responding to Comments* (0:02:45) > The Vessels of Anima are named after the thirteen children of Jacob (0:03:31) > Tetsuya Takahashi was not the director of Episode III (0:04:50) > Foreshadowing of T-elos in Episode I (0:05:28) > Does the intro work without the supplemental material? (0:05:56) > Why did you not mention that Sellers built the thirteenth Emulator? (0:26:26) > The name Wilhelm is possibly a reference to Wilhelm Wundt (0:31:09) > KOS-MOS and Welltall reference the same thing (0:34:10) > The meaning of telos (0:36:00) > The Vessels of Anima, Ein Sof and the demiurge (0:37:36) > Similarity with Neon Genesis Evangelion (0:39:23) > Why does Mike wear goggles? (0:40:11) 3. *General Thoughts* (0:44:32) > The Miltian Conflict is the real story of Xenosaga (0:45:40) > Gameplay-first vs. Story-first (0:46:20) > Thoughts on the 'timetravel' aspect of the story (0:49:02) 4. *Conversation between U-DO and Shion about eternal recurrence* (0:54:18) > Experiences worth reliving life for (0:58:43) > It all starts with gratitude (1:04:45) > Pain shared is pain divided, but happiness shared is happiness multiplied (1:07:43) > Fear is the mind-killer (1:08:49) > Why is Shion so enamored with Kevin? (1:11:11) 5. *Thoughts on young Kevin* (1:14:39) > Character writing in Xenosaga vs. Xenoblade (1:29:09) 6. *Vergil and Febronia's relationship* (1:36:22) 7. *Infiltrating Labyrinthos* (1:40:29) > Conversation between MOMO and Joachim Mizrahi (1:53:15) > Obtuse dialogue in Xenosaga (1:55:19) 8. *Questions from Patreon listeners* (2:07:53) > You need your past to be who you are now (2:08:37) > You decide the meaning of an event (2:13:30)
the obtuse dialogue was a primary point of criticism at the time. If you watch the old X Play review of xenosaga 2 that is pretty much what the whole video is about.
I just assumed the googles were a nod to Nier’s creator yoko taro as a means to not take yourself seriously. And I’m glad to know it was affirmed in this episode. I just didn’t bring it up, because I thought we all gathered it. I didn’t think it was a situation akin to a emperor that isn’t wearing robes lmao
Looking back at the intro, I played X3 when it first came out and, obviously, I had no idea the supplemental material existed until many years later. I remember feeling like my expectations had been subverted, in a good way. The status quo I was expecting to step back into had changed dramatically with Shion now a rebel against Vector, Kos-Mos now being considered disposable, and the party having drifted apart for a while. It felt like the support structures and resources we and the characters took for granted had deteriorated, and the situation of the galaxy had become much more desperate and volatile off screen. I don't think that feeling of the passage of time, and the changes in our characters' lives and environment, was a bad thing.
Thinking about any moment that would make this life worth living again and again... I don't have one. In fact I think life is pointless, meaningless, like somebody turned on the camera but the movie never started to happen and the camera keeps rolling but nothing happens. I'm not trying to "be emo" or whatever. I've felt like this for years, maybe decades, I'm still here and I haven't "abandoned the boat" yet out of the same apathy I feel for life. It's like I'm even too lazy or I feel too "meh" to even end it. It's like I'm waiting for time to end. I don't have a reason to be here, I'm single, no kids, I don't have a mission in life like "i work in somthing that helps people and makes a difference", no, I've always worked in regular boring office jobs. Life is literally "work to pay for the place where you sleep when you are not working" and nothing else happens. Not for lack of trying, I've tried making friends, getting a girlfriend, whatever, but it's all pointless and meaningless. I can't think of a single moment where I was so happy or fulfilled that I'd relive this life, and if there was a button I could press right now to "stop the camera" in a quick painless way, like "push, done, it's over", I'd do it. I don't know what real joy or happiness feels like. Not even when I was a kid and I got for christmas what I really wanted so much, those moments didn't feel real. Not only the happy moments, the bad moments feel like "movies" or "dreams" too. I don't know if it's dissasociation or what's the right term, but just to name an example: if I go to a job interview, I rationally know the historical fact that it was me and it happened to me, but two horus later I remember it in the same way I remember a movie. I don't feel like it was real, it doesn't feel like it was me, it feels like "I watched someone else's movie". The same goes for anything, like going to the movies, I'm a big fan of Dune, I went to see the first part, and I remember the historical fact that I was in the theater watching Dune but I don't FEEL like it was real. I don't FEEL like it actually happened to me. I can't explain the total disconnect and apathy towards pretty much everything. It's not hallucinations or something like that, I don't confuse what's real and what's not, I don't hear voices or see things or whatever. I rationally know the reality of "that day I went to the theater, that other day I got a job interview, two days ago I got a call from the phone company offering some new plan with some bonus, yesterday I played guitar, last night I ate pizza", but none of it feels like it actually happened to me for real. If there was a scale of "realityness" with 10 beign "it feels totally real, I deeply feel it happened to me" and 1 is "I saw it on Tom and Jerry cartoon, obviosuly it's not real", to me everything that happens in daily life, or "big moments" like christmas, birthday, getting a new job, whatever, everything feels like a 5: "I know the fact that it happened to me, but I DON'T FEEL IT". I guess I'm coasting through life and just waiting for it to end because it's pointless. The "goal" or "dream" of "I'll marry someone and have a family" or whatever the "normal life"is, seems like "if it hasn't happened yet it will never happen, I'm 25 years too late". I'm in my 40s, I'm not 20 anymore, it's too late to even try to find a vocation and fulfilling career, let alone finding the right partner to have a family or whatever. I define life as "a broken Mario cartridge where you can't walk to the right, so Mario is stuck at the first screen, he can't even run into a goomba to end it, he's just waiting for time to end". Sorry for the long post, I wish I could explain it better. Oh, by the way, I watched a movie some time ago that I found terrifiying: I don't remember the name, Robert Redford was in it. A scientist discovered there is life after death, but it's the same life you already lived, with some minor differences. Like if you had a tattoo on your right arm, on the next iteration it will be on your left arm, but basically you are you again. Some people took it as "awwwww" like "a message of hope!". I bet those are happy people that have meaningful lives. To me the idea is hell. It's eternal torture, I don't want to be me again, I don't want this life or to be me in this iteration already and you are saying I get to repeat this again FOREVER??. That movie was more scary than any horror movie. Anyway, sorry for the long rant.
Mate I feel you! I'm 43 now. I found the love of my life just a year ago! I know her for almost 20. The thing that brought us together was the death of my mother and her brother and the fact that her dog lost a leg trough a window fall. Life is strange mate!
thank you for enlighting me about life and death, my wife cheated on me and repeatedly still doing so and im almost ready to go, but thank you for the wise words, it gave me hope that things will get better one day and death is not the answer to anything.
2:05:14 "The Dean had his seventh epiphany today, which has given me an epiphany of my own: the Dean is a genius. He has to be. If he isn't, then I've given two weeks of my life to an idiot. That is unacceptable. Therefore, the Dean *is* a genius, and I *will* die protecting his vision." 😜
Sometimes bad things happen so that good things happen. My mother died 2 years ago from cancer. I lived with my mom til the end and I nursed her until that point where my skills weren't developed enough to keep her at home. She died 2 weeks after she went to the nursing home. After that I asked my, soon to be wife, to live with me because she needed a place to stay on the first floor because her dog lost a leg and couldn't climb the stair to her third floor flat. After a few month I told her what I really feel for her and we are together since. I would give everything to spent just a day with my mom again, but I wouldn't change a thing...
There’s a lot of things to comment on this episode, really engaging discussion. The topic of elitism in the Xeno community is definitely salient. Not even between gears and saga fans, but for the individual xenoblade games as well. There is a LARGE subsection xenoblade 2 fans who are incredibly vocal about the good parts of xenoblade 2. And while I agree with their points on xenoblade 2, they are almost radicalized in a manner of speaking-primarily because of the large vocal backlash of the games. Some of the criticism of xenoblade 2 having poor tutorials, bad pacing, and some of the female character writing is valid; however, it galvanized the fans of the games to defend it twice as hard. Xenoblade 1 and 3 were not the first massive story based Jrpg on a best selling console, they were not met with the same scrutiny as 2. And to an earlier point made, jrpgs have weird elements to a normal game consumer. And from this the average gamer perceived the xenoblade franchise as a “anime wifeu game” which we all know is wrong. I believe all the xenoblade games are good (3 is the best) but the xenoblade 2 fans have fought against armies of haters and have some PTSD when anyone criticizes the game. Leading them to analyze it a ton and see the game under a gilded microscope. If they used that same perspective on 1 and 3 they would probably see the same amount of love and care put into the story. There is just a level of defensiveness that comes with criticized videogames.
Speaking as someone who played Episode III years ago I was a bit confused with the opening sequence. Things flowed well but I was wondered "Why has Shion left Vector?" "Who is Doctus?". I heard The Missing Year existed but I heard that 'It's not that important, you can check the database for a summary.' and left it at that. So 2 years ago before Xenoblade 3 came out I decided to watch a Let's Play of all of Xenosaga and they played the translated video of The Missing Year. Suddenly events and details at the opening made more sense to me. As for Pied Piper I feel the game does a decent enough job at conveying things between Ziggy and Voyager. They don't give you the details directly in the game(the database is there for Pied Piper) but you're able to infer what happened between them.
A correction to one of the comments you brought up: Kosmos does not mean chaos, it's a greek word that refers to the order or arrangement of the world. Kos-mos's name also comes from the flower, cosmos, which has the same meaning.
There is an optional ES super boss i think you guys should try in the game. You don't need to beat it, but at least progress thru the easy 1st phase. I suspect seeing the cutscene into the 2nd phase you will understand why I think you should see it as its one of the biggest references to a past game and makes sense why its arguably the hardest fight in the game, basically xenosaga's version of the ff7 weapon fights
Regarding the goggles, I completely understand the reason when it comes discussing religion, philosophy and psychology, but I find it a bit strange not being able to see a person’s eyes when they talk about such vulnerable and personal experiences. Anyway, thank you for being so open and honest!
Regarding the overly complex and confusing writing in Xenosaga, like the example you kept re-reading that starts with using "Lemegeton to control the Zohar": I wonder if some of the complexity in the writing comes from the localization being perhaps too faithful at times. I could see a localizer or translator feeling overwhelmed by densely packed dialogue and being overly cautious about simplifying it for clarity, to avoid losing the original meaning. On the PS2, we no longer had the technical limits and poor management that Richard Honeywood faced during Xenogears. It's hard to think of any other Japanese games with writing and concepts as complex as this series. Some of this content is so difficult to translate clearly that I could easily see localizers falling back on more literal translations in places like this, which could sound clumsy or machine-like. Everyone has a schedule and budget to meet, and you can't possibly workshop every line to perfection. It's possible this was all easier to follow along in Japanese if Japanese was your native language. Just hearing those lines you read, which are full of nouns and clauses, I could see it being tersely written in Japanese, full of relative clauses using the て form of verbs to describe sequential actions. The complexity is compounded by the nouns being qualified by all those verbs and clauses. This is my perspective as someone who has been self-studying Japanese nonstop for six years. Reading Japanese with English being your native language, you can easily get overwhelmed by very long lines and sentences packed with clauses that qualify nouns. English is SVO (Subject-Verb-Object) while Japanese is SOV (Subject-Object-Verb). In Japanese, the verb always appears at the end of clauses and sentences, but my English brain can get lost in the structure, making it feel like a bunch of run-on sentences if you're unable to recognize the main verb in a sea of sequential actions and conditions. I think Casen could relate to this, lol. This, of course, can all be called into question if we take the lines you were referencing in Xenosaga 3's Japanese script and break them down side by side with the English localized script. Perhaps I am completely off base as I don't have readily available access to either script, so I couldn't confirm it for myself before going on this tangent. Contrast all of this with Xenoblade's localization efforts, which are very "Nintendofied." The Nintendo Treehouse localization team has been routinely criticized for how much they simplify the writing, names, and nouns in Xenoblade games, with Xenoblade 2 having it the worst. But aside from the creative liberties they sometimes take in the English localizations, perhaps they're actually doing a very good job at making the dialogue more readable and easier to parse. Localization teams now work more closely than ever with the core development teams and can routinely have open back-and-forth dialogue to clarify information they are trying to translate/localize. This was definitely not the case during the PS2 era, where we didn't have simultaneous worldwide launches for JRPGs like we do now with Xenoblade.
ruclips.net/video/Y33uUuF2KOo/видео.htmlsi=PEoD49KOlp1AvUPW Here is a Japanese version of the game. The conversation they are talking about happens about 10.5 minutes in.
My understanding is that the eternal reoccurrence could have happened hundreds of times already. Wilhelm is part of the 3rd dimension, so his memory is also wiped. He just comes to the same conclusion of needing to reset the universe every time. U-DO is from a different dimension and thus remembers every single reset. U-DO making contact with people creates ripples in the cosmos, changing each reset slightly.
I think KOS-MOS is meant to be interpreted as "order" and not universe, as opposed to "chaos", two characters who represent complementary opposites of nature (and everything).
I cant remember if you guys have referenced it or not, but are we on the same page that The Song of Nephilim is a flawed and incomplete copy of Lemegeton? And that those people who are afraid of isolation upon touching U-DO are then transformed into Gnosis? And that all the Zohar is is a gateway to the upper domain where u-do resides?
I’m just 1 hour into the podcast, but I have to comment about Shion’s dependance on Kevin. I kinda suffered something similar in the Navy, but I lack the terminology to define what it is. Kevin is the last thing before the Miltia Conflict and the first thing after it that gave her agency in her life. Between those 2 points Jin wasn’t the best brother/parent to her, admitting in episode 2 how he may have been too stern with her. She sees Kevin, who probably changed in some way because of the flower scene, as the one thing in her life that gives her the agency she needs to express herself and heal because he was the one factor that gave her the agency she needed and the ability to be vulnerable. After the trauma of the Miltia conflict and then years of stern parenting she interpreted as dissatisfaction from Jin, she was primed to latch onto the first thing that gave her peace. I can understand why she does what she does, but I think she goes way too far with it, pursuing him all the way to the end of the game.
Just gonna say, I do appreciate that you already played through the game at this point and are talking about it from a perspective of knowing where it's going. I really think this suits you infinitely better than the blind playthroughs you did of Xenosaga 1 and FF XVI, and like, naturally, because ultimately those series ended up being in large parts you guys speculating over what might or might not be important, how it will be delved on, and well by definition you're not coming into a blind series from the position of having something to say and communicate about it, but instead having to try and figure it out as you go. IMO it's awkward for an analysis podcast. Thanks for the tidbit about how the reception of Shion's character disheartened Takahashi. It's not surprising but good to know regardless.
Again, catching up, and I don’t want to spoil things, but the heavy emphasis on eternal recurrence in Xenosaga also um…shows up again, and is probably why that is my favourite game in that series lol. I’ll have to wait for that particular game to show up in your podcasts to talk further about it. In any case, Shion and Kevin are sitting in a tree, and it informs soooo so much of Shion and who she is. Everything will be okay, Shion. :( Sorry to hear that you have those intrusive thoughts, Mike. It’s rough. The whole conversation about this is really nice though. Re Xenosaga to Xenoblade characters, Takahashi did correct because of the reaction to Shion, but that doesn’t mean the Blade characters are shallow or anything. They’re just more pleasant lol. However, something to keep in mind with the reaction to Shion back in the 2000s was that it was very based in misogyny. There was a lot of misogynistic language around her (“shrill”, “hysterical”). So I do think it’s something to keep in mind, because that absolutely followed her character from Xenosaga 1, to 3, and beyond. I also don’t think we have to like characters. Like, for instance, Virgil haha. And Kevin too, honestly. You can understand their plight, and even feel sorry for them, but still think they’re assholes haha. And re the Xeno fans, as a Xeno fan, yeah lol. Blade still hits on MANY MANY MANY of the same concepts that Gears and Saga do, they just chill out on the technobabble and philosophical talk, and boil it down a bit. But Xenoblade 1, 2, and 3 explore all the same concepts, they just sit in the background more than Gears and Saga, who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Both are fine. Blade has their stories on a surface level, and you can take that, and it works, and you’re happy! But if you know what Takahashi is about, it’s VERY rewarding if you want to dig into the Blade games with those concepts and philosophies in mind. And I think it’s totally fair that Takahashi has gone this way. Obviously, Gears and Saga didn’t set the world on fire, and Saga bombed out (sad…). So, I think it’s absolutely fair that he boils the story down to the surface level (and I don’t say that in a bad way), and then sprinkles the concepts he loves underneath for people to discover if they want to. Final edit as I wrap up the video, but yes at “I never stop thinking about the mistakes I’ve made”. Lord have mercy lol.
Im gonna be real theres a segment of the Shion haters hate her because of how she treats Allen. They take it personally as if Allen was them. That didnt even phase me.
It wouldn't surprise me if this was the case. Allen can be viewed as a sort of self-insert character for certain fans. Smart guy and good at what he does but kinda hapless with the girl he has a crush on and struggles with his courage with respect to pursuing her. Takes any abuse from her (ex. her threatening to kill herself in a pod which would also kill him) because of his crush. He's also pretty much the one normal guy in a group of characters with super human abilities or many of which aren't human. He is a very relatable character.
There could definitely be something to that...but aside from the very end of this game, I feel like Shion actually treated Allen a little better than most of the other NPCs. The Elsa crew, the Professor, Miyuki, etc all treat him much worse and they don't even have much reason to. Those interactions always bothered me more than Shion's. Most of the time her rudeness towards Allen is purely a consequence of her being spacey.
@@cloudkitt I think a lot of it comes down to the "Oh, I didn't even notice you were there Allen" factor which is used for laughs at times but is also very dehumanizing. Shion's probably at her worst with respect to him in the first game, and I think is better with him in this game (she did agree to go on a date with him after all), although there is later a scene where she is quite mean to him. Granted that's part of a critical sequence that drives much of the Shion hate overall and is based on not just her treatment of him but a lot of stuff.
You're going go call me a liar for saying I don’t post online and then posting on two videos in a row. 😂 Seriously, though, just wanted to thank you for addressing my comment in the video. I agree with you that generally most confusing elements of the story are clear after a point (normally I'm the one pointing that out when watching or playing stuff with others). I think the Shion "catch the player up" monologue, and Voyager's introduction in XS2, just tripped me up and took me out of the story by making me feel like something was missing rather than feeling like these would be explained. They do get explained in XS3 but just to carch people up on stuff from the supplemental material. I don't want anyone to think I disagree that we probably got the best result possible when one considers the troubled production in these games. I agree that this is the kind of game you need to play multiple times to get so I'm sorry to say I'm not actually playing along. I think I'd be preaching to the choir if i said anything about how long these are and there's a lot of other stuff to do just in terms of video games, let alone real life (just started Planescape to play along with your coverage of that game, though). By sheer coincidence, i think I played Xenogears sometime during your series on it and would have dived straight into Xenosaga, so it has been a couple years since I played. I do remember diving into the wiki immediately after finishing each game to pick up on things I missed, like you said, and that was when I discovered Pied Piper and Missing Year. That got a little more rambling than I intended, but yeah. I really just wanted to thank you guys for going over that thought I had.
I forgot to add this, but talking about things you notice on a second playthrough. If you go back and watch the XS1 cutscene where Cherenkov is given the Archetype remote by a hooded figure, you can actually see Kevin's face under the hood. You would never recognize him based on how little you see him in that game, but once you're able to recognize his face then it's obvious.
Just a minor linguistic tip: The "ein" in Ein Sof is pronounced like "ain't" as opposed to "eye" Also in "Sefer HaYetzirah" the stress is on the "rah", as with most Hebrew words where it falls on the last or 2nd to last syllable
Thank you for the videos! You guys are nailing the analysis with this game! And because I know the shion analysis will come next episode, here is a very nice compilation of all the times she said "its nothing" in the series. ruclips.net/video/1fBgH-cv3d8/видео.htmlsi=Z1KqLLcmgYSlKVhN Fun to look back!
1:59:14 Ah I forgot you’re still doing this. URTVs are NOT realians. They are designer children. So while both came from a lab, URTVs actually grew from a fertalized egg, but with specifically selected genes. They were not meant to come into contact with U-DO. At least not directly or as direct as these realians are made to. URTVs are intended to react to and combat U-DO with their powers. But these realians (specifically Cecily and Cathe because they were in these two kind of sarcophaguses) were misused because realians don’t share the same fear as humans to get isolated. As they said in these lines you thankfully repeated three times, they need a will to engage with the Zohar using Lemegeton. But in doing so they would come into contact with U-DO. Just like Yuriev and others did who either just died or developed an inescapable fear. (as well as super-human powers)
After rewatching, I can see why it came across like I thought URTVs are realians. What I was trying to say was the scientists are forcing URTVs and/or Realians (separate things) to make these contacts with U-DO in place of regular people.
1:33:16 - Spot on about the execution of characters. I was annoyed with many of the characters in the series, and felt their flaws were put on blast disproportionately, which made the arcs harder to care about.
An interesting thing about paradoxes in time travel - How would you know if you were the first? Maybe everything leads to where you are because of those actions?
Having played xenogears and xeno saga all the way through I've yet to play Xenoblade. But from what I've heard, blade is the company's third attempt at actually telling the story they've wanted to tell since Gears. And a certain way if you think about it, saga and gears are connected based on how episode 3 of saga ends. I don't want to give anything away but for those of you that have beaten saga probably can see what I'm talking about.
I just want to say that I read the title in the nursery rhyme rhythm and it works up until Anal. I mean.. uh.. Shion and Kevin Sitting in a Tree Xe-no-sa-ga Episode 3. Pefect.
It's funny that Casen thought Roth Mantel might have been a reference to David Lee Roth or Howie Mandel since those family names are both German as well. Roth meaning red (older German, modern German would be 'Rot') and Mandel meaning almond. (They are German names because the individuals are Jewish)
Speaking of instruction booklets for story, while the game itself wouldn't be as good to parse for book club format, I think Cased and Mike would love playing Tunic and commenting on it from how it moves itself forward very specifically via the instruction booklet.
The reference to instruction booklets made me think back to the super old school days when Metroid's instruction book writer clearly didn't even beat the game (well at least under a certain time limit) as they referenced Samus as being a guy instead of a girl.
So, I was listening to this episode on my way to therapy, and my god, the conversation you guys had felt like a therapy session in itself lol. But seriously though, this is legit one of the best episodes of this series you’ve done.
With regards to the unlikeability of certain characters, I admit that I am 100% biased in my opinions about this game, but that has never bothered me, for several reasons. For one, I feel like certain people expect main characters to be 100% likeable, or well-adjusted, because that makes them more relatable to the audience. You mentioned Evangelion in this episode - there’s a whole contingent of people who hate Shinji, for instance, because he’s emo, and he won’t get in the robot. And like, that’s literally the entire point of the show. Episode 3 is similar, in that respect. I fully admit that some of the things the characters do are cruel, and perhaps hard to understand at first, but we have to remember, for most of these characters, we’re seeing them at perhaps their absolute lowest point, after what’s already been a lifetime of tragedy and trauma. I applaud Takahashi for writing these characters in this way, because he’s portraying the aftermath of trauma honestly, warts and all. Having the characters be “likeable” would, at least to me, come across as disingenuous.
Sorry that was a lil bit longer that I was expecting lol. One more random comment - I don’t think Wilhelm’s name is meant to suggest Wilhelm Wundt. I’ve always interpreted his name to be another reference to Nietzsche, as Nietzsche’s middle name was Wilhelm. Plus, given what his plans are, being named after Nietzsche is fitting to his character. But that’s just me.
I feel like one of the big sticking criticisms is that the when you do write characters like this, it severely limits who can appreciate them and it leads into this behavior of people that are like "Well you just didn't get it so I'm smarter than you at this" Evangelion fans exemplify this entirely in my experience. That said, I don't think that really takes away from the people who really do get a lot out of this. One of the things about games as art is that not everyone has to have the same taste in it. For example Silent Hill 2 is a lauded masterpiece, but for me I just found it to be okay at best. I feel like all of the Xeno games are good, but Saga's look at broken people really resonated with me at the time I played it.
TJ!!!!
@@aidanuzuki3449 Oh I agree 100%. These sorts of stories, for a multitude of reasons, are just not going to be for everyone, and that’s fine. I’m glad you brought up those elitist fans, cuz they piss me off too - like, these stories are difficult by design, I’m not gonna get on anyone’s case for not wanting to relive all these fictional traumas. And on the other side, if you’re one of those people who just won’t connect with this game, just admit that straight up, and if you want to levy criticism, at the very least, be willing to engage with the story on its own terms
Interestingly, I don't care for Evangelion at all, but Xenosaga's characters never bothered me :)
I 100% agree with this comment. In many cases I find the most memorable characters in these types of stories are the flawed and/or "unlikable" characters who are carrying a lot of unresolved trauma underneath the surface. And if you think about it, many popular JRPG characters have something from their past that they have to work through and grow from. But developers often give that character a likable personality/traits in order to endear the audience to that character first, before revealing their character flaws and traumas later on. Meaning only AFTER you've been given a reason to root for that character on their journey, only then do the writers lay their flaws on the table. Think like Cloud from FFVII, or Wakka from FFX.
But what's a lot more rare (and risky) is to present the flaws/"unlikability" of the character front and center first, and then ask the audience "Are you still rooting for this person to succeed even though you don't like their behavior/personality?"
Examples I think of off the top of my head: Shion in XenoSaga, Luke in Tales of the Abyss, and most of the cast of FFXIII.
And as far as I can tell, for a lot of people the answer is simply: "No. I need there to be some endearing or respected aspect to the character shown to me first in order for me to care about them becoming a better person later on."
I find that kind of sad in a way... Like most of the people in real life who have a deep unresolved trauma holding them back are more likely to come off closer to a Shion or Shinji rather than a Cloud.
And what does that say about us as a society if most us are only invested in someone's personal growth if we find that personal likable? Like we really only have empathy for someone to become a better person if we find them likable in some way? Is our capacity for human empathy really that shallow? What if most of the people out there who actually need our support to overcome unresolved trauma have personality flaws that make them unlikable in many interactions?
We all know if Shion and Kevin were sitting in a tree, Takahashi would make it the tree of Sephirot and you'd have to piece together based on their eye color which step of the alchemical process of the creation of the Philosopher's Stone they represented in order to determine which german Philosophers' concepts are clashing and whether they work in tandem or oppose one another.
The run-on sentence was intentional lol
Calling my mom to tell her my comment made it to an episode of Resonant Arc
When chads talk about you, you know you've made it big in life. Especially when discussing Xenosaga.
It is a wonderful feeling :)
You facetime her, and see her wearing goggles. She already knows. She's so proud, she'd relive this moment in an eternal loop of life and death just for that call.
@@JediMimic XD
😅
I loved all of the Xenogears nods throughout Episode III-Seibzehn & Maria, the party’s omnigears, Weltall and Id-Weltall, the G-Elements… I geeked out every time I came across one throughout the game.
As to the point the commenter made about feeling like they’d missed a game between II and III, I had a similar feeling when I first played it back in the day.
Most of my questions were answered or at least easily guessed at by the end of the first dungeon, but I remember it feeling a bit jarring.
I was more shocked that Shion managed to keep the Dinah after quitting Vector (though it seems obvious now that Wilhelm would want to ensure that she could keep it).
55:30 yeah, I had a thought about this scene and linking it to Fei and Elly’s situation in Xenogears. Living over and over again, hoping to find that joy, that happiness (only for it to get ruined time after time until they find a way to overcome the cycle itself).
I know that -Saga is a different IP from -Gears, but scenes like this really make it feel like the two were intended to be parts of a greater whole. Like the wave existence/U-DO listened to Shion and tried to help Abel/Elly fulfill that desire.
Also, it was excellent early foreshadowing for Wilhelm’s plan. It makes me wonder how many times U-DO had repeated that moment and heard the same answer or variations of it.
@@Xenobears Dinah was stolen by Shion in Episode II in the first place, so its as if Vector was like "You know what? You can keep it." LoL.
I really love how Virgil, Feb and his ume addiction is expanded in these scenes. Him slowly letting go off his hatred. But the tragedy of febs death undid it all and made him full villain in ep1. Especially since realians are what killed her. I empathize with being so close to thinking one way but circumstance undo it all. And its even worse because it confirms his preconvictions. To his old self/perspective he was proven right by the realians going rogue, which just makes it all the more unlikely and tragic he'll ever change his thoughts on them. The difference between ep1 Virgil, lovey dovey Virgil and blue testament Virgil all show these states and mentalities grow. I love it.
(1) One thing I really like about these games is how they show, structurally, the effect that trauma has on a person’s sense of time. The theme of Xenosaga is about the will to power to move past the traumas faced by an individual in the past, and that comes through clearest from the strategic placement of Miltia. Miltia and the Miltian Conflict is where many of the characters’ sense of time stop and what they must confront in order to move on with their lives.
The constant revisiting of Miltia only truly ends when we, along with Shion and her team, come to realize the truth about the conflict. It is by facing up to that truth and incorporating it within that it ceases to be an outside spectre of torment, mentioned only in passing whispers.
(2) In that vein then, I think the “time travel” plot captures very well, as you said, the emotional response that people often have to trauma, wishing that they could go back and wish it all away. By dangling the prospect of changing the future in front of the characters, Xenosaga III is playing with another Nietzschean concept: “ressentiment,” an awareness of one’s inability against time and how one is acting out in light of that inability.
(3) I actually like that Kevin was presented as being an obnoxious jerk. While it has been rightly mentioned that Shion is excusable because of her feelings of attachment towards him, the other party members quickly come to a realization that Kevin is far from this paragon of virtue that he has been built up to be over the course of the games.
It also casts light and doubt, I think, on Shion’s memories, and whether she is properly remembering her experiences with Kevin as they truthfully occurred, or whether they, too, are partly the fruit of her wishful thinking.
For what it’s worth, I think Shion clings to Kevin not just because he represents an idealized version of the scientist, and therefore a “redeemed” version of her father whom she remembers in some vague way to be problematic.
There is this awareness that Kevin is key to the unlocking of her past, and Shion clings onto him both as a reminder of her past and as a way to overcome the past through his strength, initially.
Good points. The concept of an unreliable narrator isn't really spoken about with respect to this game, but looking at the overall Shion - Kevin relationship I can totally see the possibility that some of the flashbacks we see with her when he comes off like this really upstanding flawless guy are instead idealized memories of hers that don't really reflect what happened.
@@quiddity131 Yes, it ties in very well to the exploration of trauma, brokenness, and time that Xenosaga incidentally conducts over the course of the three games.
first of all, everything you spoke about regarding the suicidal idealization spoke so much to me. i feel like i've had some very similar experiences and thoughts and hearing you talk about it meant the world to me and made me feel so seen. in a weird way, i had a smile across my face as you discussed it since i was able to understand and relate so much
and on one other note, i really appreciate how you dig into all the elitism in the fandom(s). they're all amazing games with their own flaws and many many more successes. the failures of xenogears and xenosaga (these do not mean they were bad or overall failed games!!!) helped the teams create xenoblade into what it is and unarguably, you have to agree that the success has finally shown! learning from past mistakes is a big part of the overall xeno themes and i think sitting in the back and just getting mad at the new games just goes against one of the things you're meant to get from the games. you don't gotta like them of course, but to dismiss them for what are honestly very trivial things just really only hurts yourself. anyway, just loved the way you explained it. i'm also not one to comment on youtube videos much but this channel prompts me to more than almost any other
also adding to the beautiful stuff you talked about at the end with jin's quote, when i came out of a horrible life situation and started to want to live again, one of the things i would say to reframe it all was that i regret nothing. there are many mistakes i've made and things i didn't do and while i would love to be able to change those things, i know myself now and i'm happy and proud of who i am. i'm so far from perfect and there are things i will never do because of choices i made, but that's okay. i've learned and made progress in other things and without that trauma i wouldn't be here now. i can't really want to change my past; i'm happy where i am and where i'm going and that is enough
Oh, I forgot something awesome in the last episode! I was replaying all Xenogames with a friend.
(spoilers for Xenogears)
And I thought it was so awesome that in almost every era, Fei, or Abel had this artistic skill and drew or painted images of Elly. Okay you only saw the current Fei paint other images and not Elly. But Lacan painted the portrait of Sophia in the church and Kim painted too.
And in Xenosaga you see Abel coming in and drawing an illustration of Nephilim on the ground who is basically Elly, too.
Ha! I never thought about that connection for some reason, such an obvious reference for him to draw "Elly" once more!
I'm really happy to hear that you're open to giving Xenoblade 2 another chance. From what little you've said about it so far, it sounds like you and I have a lot of the same problems with it (and they are big problems), but the good parts it has are just amazing and plentiful enough that I think they outweigh the bad.
As someone who has had many issues with that game and has given it more than a fair shot. Would you mind sharing the good parts you found in it? Quick edit: hope this didn't come across as hostile in some way. I genuinely would like to know.
@@cheshireimp493 I don't wanna go into too much detail, but a lot of the characters are really good. Most of the main cast all revolve around the central theme of "How do you move on from trauma?" and the ways the game explores how each of them respond differently to trauma is really cool. Rex, Nia, Jin and Amalthus are all standouts.
@@photon_breakIn a lot of ways it feels like it is giving saga 3s theme another go and I love it for that. The way that Rex is used to get these characters to reflect in change is beautiful and it's where blade2s story is at its strongest (when it wants to be)
The moment the story clicked for me is realizing that the decision to make Rex a child isn't just some lame "to appeal to a broad anime fanbase" but is instead to reflect how a naive child is probably the only type of person to be able to challenge these people in their ways of thought
I appreciate your guys' conversations on if reliving life over and over again just to experience the happy moments. I feel just because of those kinds of discussions, these games resonate so much with players, like myself. I think Xenoblade 3 does a great job at reexamining and expanding on the concept of eternal reoccurrence. There's a lot to think about, and just the fact that these games impact us in these ways, where we take the time to reflect on it, is a testament to the art of it. Great episode guys
I am always enamored by characters like Virgil who have such strong and defensive personalities, because it nearly always stems from a focal point of extreme distress that they are internally struggling with. For Virgil, his personality highlights a very interesting human phenomena, when one can reject and even resent that which saved them
I want to say some of what I thought about shion, before getting to the end of the game as to put a pin in it. I think Shion’s actions towards Kevin make sense. In any abusive relationship, the victim will fixate on the positive traits of their partner. This is why I think they showed a more annoying Kevin in opposition to the dream of Kevin in Shion’s head. Victims will bargain with abusers to change, and ignore their flaws and retreat from friends and family because those friends and family will state incongruency with the abusers actions and abusers perceived actions in the victims head. on average, It takes seven times for a victim to leave their abuser to actually stay away from them. It is incredibly difficult to leave a loved one, Shion is no exception. just some thoughts to think about going into the end of the game.
I think the reason why Shion is so enamored with Kevin is because he was the one thing that provided happiness and safety to Shion. From the beginning, her life was tragic, and Kevin provided the one respite from that. That's why she's willing to do the things she does later in the game just to get that one feeling of happiness back.
I played Xenosaga around 2011 which was a bit later than most. Many fansites were dead at that time. By the time I found out about it XenoTensei and Godsibb, two well known fansites, did not exist. The games blew my mind at what could be depicted in a videogame and eventually it led me to play Xenogears and Xenoblade after. In regards to personal preference, I do prefer Saga and Gears a lot. All Xeno games are great though and they all have their own charm and also their own flaws. Perhaps it could be read that because of the development Xenosaga is maybe the most flawed. I still feel like they were able to accomplish really incredible things even if it was really cryptic and messy at times. The characters in Xenoblade don't really do it for me, but that's okay! It's an entirely different game, with its own identity trying to do its own things! For most people and the Xeno games there is usually one game that people play at a very particular time in their lives when they need to experience it and that game becomes their favorite. The fandom infighting is really annoying when we're all really liking the same stuff just different versions of it.
Yeah I endeavor to not be elitist about it...but I have continually bounced off Xenoblade. I will confidently say that I think II is a terrible game, but I and III I can respect even though I haven't been able to get into them.
I was always a bit more drawn to X simply because it has a more Xenosaga-y artstyle, but I don't have a Wii U and I know it's not *actually* like Xenosaga anyway...
@@cloudkitt Xenoblade X looks more like Xenosaga's style as they brought back Kunihiko Tanaka, the original character designer from Xenogears and Xenosaga Episode I. He hasn't been used much on the other Xenoblade games beyond designing some of the cameo blades in Xenoblade 2.
@@quiddity131 oh cool! That would definitely explain why it looks like them, haha
I want to point out how Shion's romantic flashback with Kevin and her subsequent desire to be in that moment forever is where Xenosaga turns Nietzsche on its head. This is where eternal recurrence becomes the feminine destructive and overly sheltering safety, and breaking out of it by killing "god" gives the game the imagery of the "breaking out of the womb" archetype. The game is about "being born" - and by being born, also being fated to die, as all true living beings, but accepting that and choosing it anyway.
Just putting this out there but i think Professor B and Mother Fortune (looks like the spinning Eternal Recurrence device) from Xenoblade X (side quest characters though) is just there to make fun of the entire Xenosaga series, doing philosophy the somewhat correct way! 😂
also the memory wiping rabbit hole discussion shall be saved for the inevitable Xenoblade 2 podcast with all the Blades’ memories being wiped as they are reborn from a Driver and something something Core Crystal something living 500 years something tragedy! 😅
...and much gratitude for this Podcast! I am only halfway..
i give props to Kevin's VA because the red testament sounds like Kevin but you don't even notice until the revelation, at least for me xDD
kevin is obviously the red testament but the red testament is not obviously kevin
@@j0anbugThat actually makes perfect sense holy crap hahaha
I did make the connection pretty early on, largely because I was a big fan of Prince of Persia The Sands of Time, and Yuri Lowenthal voices the prince and Kevin (and by extension the Red Testament). So I did keep recognizing his voice 😅 I don't think I noticed instantaneously, but definitely in the wait between XS1 and 2.
Yuri Lowenthall, ladies and gentlemen.
He's famous now for voicing Insomniac's Spider-Man, but he's been a top tier VA since the 2000s. I think this is one of his most overlooked early roles.
Pretty sure this was the first time I heard Yuri Lowenthal in something, he is quite well known in anime dubs for voicing characters like Simon in Gurren Lagann and Suzaku in Code Geass. After hearing him in those shows I grew more appreciation for him here in Xenosaga.
A small correction from the previous video. Kevin did not give the pendant to Shion he died with it and she kept it as a memento, you can see this flashback in ep I after Shion realizes KOS-MOS is activated.
T-elos also shows you that she is a machine enhanced human in her first fight with KOS-MOS. She bleeds by her cheek. In this fight KOS-MOS also has the same slash but on the opposite side of the face wich made me think of Squall and Seifer from FF8.
The reason why the 13th Zohar emulator does not link with Abel is because his will is for the purpose of the real Zohar. His will is rejecting the link because it emulates the same conditions. But the power of the real Zohar and U-DO cannot be emulated or replicated. His appearance in Shions dreams gives it away that he can link with U-DO or is a part of U-DO...
He is unnable to communicate in the real world just like Sakura.His reason is different almost like he is sealed within himself. And I think Juli Mizrahi took him under her wing because she had been through it with Sakura in the past.
This one is related to testaments. I don't know if anyone else noticed since the first episode that they are classified as a G type enemy and in the ending you will get more clarity on who can meet the conditions to become a testament, where their powers come from and why are they no longer humans.
Abel literally IS U-DO. Or to be more specific, its human avatar and representation in the lower number domain. Abel's Ark, on the other hand, is U-DO's Gnosis avatar.
It's a "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" kind of trinity.
@@XanderVJ I know. Thank you, but since many have not played it and are waiting for the ending of the podcast. I tried not to spoil it.
I just want to say I always appreciate the passion from you guys especially Mike. Every time Mike expresses himself I resonate in a weird way like huh that's probably what I look/seem like when I passionately talk to my friends. Much love Mike and Casen always!
I want to give praise to Mike for both IMO accurately summarizing Xeno fandom and also having the strength of character to play xenoblade 2 again and give it a fair shake. I admit I quit the first time I played that game but after the XB1 rerelease on the switch I played through XB1,2 and X and all their DLCs. Most of my appreciation for the XB2 story come from the last few chapters of that game and the added context from the DLC. I hate to say this but I think all the DLC expansions for the Blade games are kinda required reading. Future Connected maybe the least, but I do think that game gives good screen time to characters in XB1 that felt a bit short changed in the base game. It's sort of like how you could blitz the Xenoblade X story and get the plot but all the real world building and character work happens in the side content.
Agreed. My impression of Mike's views on Xenoblade before he brought up the likelihood of them covering it someday was that he hated the series due to how Xenoblade 2 comes across and especially hated the fact that they went back and remade Xenoblade 1 to make it look more stylistically like 2. At least that's my memory, I could my misremembering. I'm glad to know that they will cover them someday.
As much as I enjoy the overall series and the individual game I don't know if there really is a point to cover X. It leans into the MMO style more than any other Xenoblade game, to the level that beyond some world building there is very little to the main plot.
The talk on people's response to trauma makes me think of Viktor Frankl, a holocaust survivor and the author of Man's Search for Meaning, where he talks about how finding hope and meaning in your suffering keeps you alive. I also think of Ruth Sienkiewicz-Mercer, who was completely paralyzed and abused for 16 years by Belchertown State School who thought she must be dumb if she can't move or speak. But, she came out of it and started communicating to people with her eyes and ended up being a disability rights activist. Her friend helped her write a book and it's inspiring since she's a beacon of positivity, that even through all the horror she went through.
In my mind, I feel the best way to respond to trauma is to make your suffering worth it by helping other people who have the same problems. And, focusing on gratitude, consciously, every day is so important, like Mike said. It's crazy how we take for granted basic things like our freedoms, senses, and motor functions. People with so much less can still be happy, and that just goes to show that it's your perspective, not your circumstance. Still, way easier said than done. Like, I had a moment where I finally learned this concept and it made so much sense when I was happy... Then, when I was depressed again, I was like, "Yeah right, as if it was that easy!" LOL! It's unfortunate how blinded we get by depression. I love what Mike said that it's not about saying, "come on, get yourself together", but just that it IS something that can be done. Don't beat yourself up if you're having trouble being grateful, though. Just try your best. I wish anyone reading this the best of luck overcoming whatever is holding you down.
Honestly, this podcast is one of the things I'm most grateful for these days. That I'm alive in a time where I'm able to listen to you talk and appreciate these games. Like even 20 years ago this would be impossible and 20 years from now it might've slipped my radar entirely. I can't thank you guys enough. And all of your supporters that make this possible. And thank you, Mike, for the work you do in your job, it's so important.
Another detail for those that want more of Jin, be sure to get the 8 federal reports during the conflict and
decipher them on the Elsa to get much more info of what Jin knew, his role and thoughts on it all!
Keep up the great work, gentlemen.
Thank you for highlighting so many comments.
Wow. Shion's Dad vs. Fei's 'reborn' mom. I've never played Xenoblade, but feel like one of the final antagonists will be similar.
1:08:00 I'm glad you're still here Mike and that youre in a place to talk about your experience openly. I think its not only healthy but is also helpful to others who might feel the same way but also think theyre alone.
"I don't like musicals." I don't either, but Blues Brothers is my favorite movie of all time. It's kind of amazing how there can always be exceptions to things painted with a broad brush.
Mike, I have watched this channel for many years. I never knew about your experience with those thoughts and the attempt you made that thankfully wasn't successful, so I really felt a strong desire to tell you how grateful I am that you are still here. You giving us yourself, your perspective, your thoughts, and your experience of the world that you share through your own unique self is something I can't really find among people I know in real life. I consider this channel that you guys created as something so rare and precious, something to be treasured. And so are the both of you, and the bonds you have created, something that should be treasured. You have extended those bonds to all of us that are here. Thank you for creating a space where we can sit by the warmth of this familiar fire of the never ending quest for understanding. Thank you. I appreciate you and I am grateful you guys are around. Please don't forget it.
Great episode as always. I hope you reconsider doing only one more episode to cover the rest of the game (not counting your special episode after) as you haven't even hit the climax of disc 1 yet. Given that you got two and a half hours out of what is probably the least discussion worthy part of the game this time I can only imagine how long it will take to discuss all the big things the rest of the way.
Re: Xenogears/Saga vs. Blade, I am a grizzled veteran who played Xenogears a mere year after release and played the Xenosaga games relatively soon after release as well and consider Xenogears my favorite video game of all time. If one was going to be a purist/gatekeeper over Gears/Saga versus Blade it would be someone like me. But that's not my mentality over it. I love them all. It is quite clear through the experience of how Xenosaga got made and how sideways things went that Takahashi's ambitions were too great and the method of story versus gameplay had gone way too far in the story direction (although I would argue it was at its worst in Episode I and improved in II and III). As much as I love the story of Xenosaga the method of how the story was handled had become detrimental to the overall experience. These are video games, not novels or anime. Xenoblade didn't even start as a "Xeno" game. It started as Takahashi going in a totally different direction, a game called Monado that was focused far more on world building and exploration than having a really complex plot like Gears/Saga. By that point it had become necessary for him to go in a different direction. I don't think we're here today with 4 base Xenoblade games, 3 DLC expansion games and most likely a fifth in the next few years if he approached it just like he did with Xenosaga. No way are things as successful.
Is the story as deep in Blade as is it is in Gears/Saga for me? No. Especially the first game and X. But are they great games? Hell yes. Are they more fun to play than Gears/Saga? Hell yes. And besides X, which doesn't have much of a main story, the stories for the Xenoblade games are still better than the vast majority of the games out there. I can see a hardcore Gears/Saga fan being disappointed on that front with the first game and X, but 2 and 3 have very strong stories. Even with the cringe factor at times in 2 which I think people tend to be too harsh on. People often forget that Gears and Saga have cringe stuff in them too. Remember Chu Chu on a crucifix?).
I'm really worried about them covering the end of Disc 1 and Abels Ark AND Michtam not that I believe they can't do it, just that they might not get to talk about some really cool stuff.
About that overcomplicted line again: I think there is a reason why it’s so complicated and they use all these technical terms.
You have to remember what they are doing to Cecily and Cathe there is super effed up. So Suou uses all this tech jargon to burry up the morale under it. He even has his eyes closed in that little character portrait in the lower left when saying those words. It shows how he is building up a wall around him to shield himself from all that responsibility.
I think key to unlocking the meaning behind this game and some of the greater truths the narrative is trying to convey is to compare the fundamental tenets of Gnosticism to fundamental tenets of Jewish Mysticism, specifically the Kabbalah of Isaac Luria. In both systems a fundamental schism occurs in the creation of the universe that removes humanity from the direct presence of God. In Gnosticism it is Yaldabaoth (the demiurge) being birthed by Sophia and through abject ignorance using his lesser powers to create the material universe, thinking himself to be its god. In the Kabbalah, in the process of creating Adam Kadmon (primordial man), Or Ein Sof (the light of the infinite / undivided) is contracted (tzimtzum). During the process vessels (sefirot), meant to house the divine light shatter, shevirat ha-kelim, resulting in the broken husks (kellipot) to rain down on creation. It is at this point that traditional narrative picks up, specifically Tohu and Bohu, chaos and void, words used in the opening verses of Genesis to describe the after effects of the catastrophe of the first creation.
All that is to say is in both Gnosticism and Jewish Mysticism the initial creation of the world was a result of a cosmic catastrophe. But knowing all that what do you do? This is where the two systems greatly diverge.
Whereas in most schools of Gnosticism the fundamental viewpoint is that the created world is ultimately wrong, an illusion created by the demiurge to trap us in, a false reality in which we are the created and the demiurge is our ultimate God / the primary mover / the true creator. To the Gnostics, we live in a perverted version of reality, if one can even call it reality, and the ultimate goal is escape, to reject it. Asceticism taken to its most extreme conclusion.
Whereas the Kabbalists would agree the world exists in an imperfect and broken state, most systems of Kabbalah would argue against the ascete as being very foolish. In systems of Isaac Luria and the Chabad-Lubavitch, creation is in a constant cycle of Tohu and Tikun, chaos (destruction) and restoration. The goal of a student of the Kabbalah is not to escape from / reject the world, but rather to be an active participant in its restoration, Tikkun ha-Olam. By locating the kellipot, the shattered vessels, sefirot, and elevating them through our talents and good deeds (mitzvah), each one of us is an active participant in the restoration of the world, upon which the cycle repeats, but in an ever upward, in spiritual terms, process. A carpenter might find a broken tree branch, but using his talents fashion it into a chair, that chair brings others comfort, offering them rest. In that example, the broken tree branch is kellipot, a shattered vessel trapping a piece of Or Ein Sof, light of the infinite. The trapped divine light is released by a individual expressing their God given talent, performing a mitzvah, thereby restoring a part of the light back into the world, Tikkun ha-Olam.
Whereas one system rejects, the other system embraces. Whereas one system seeks to return the works to its point before the beginning the other system sees hope, even in the smallest actions, having an effect on the greater whole. “Even the smallest ripple can spread throughout the whole.” Whereas one faction of the game embraces the world the other rejects the world, or sees it as too corrupt as having any chance of being allowed to continue. The funny thing is that even in their delusion, the faction that rejected the world was still participating in Tikun ha-Olam as in Kabbalah, every cycle completed is one step closer to restoration. There is a line said by one of the major proponents of the Gnostic viewpoint in this game that even seems to slightly suggest they reluctantly accept that this is probably the case and come to accept that maybe the time has come to let things play out versus try to escape the cycle.
All that is to say is that by reading nunerous books on both Jewish Mysticism and Gnosticism it is hard to experience Xenosaga without seeing it as a cosmic battle between the Gnostic and Kabbalistic viewpoints of what it means to be a participant in a broken universe. Let alone a lot of the forefathers of analytical psychology and especially psychoanalysis, were keenly aware of Lurianic Kabbalah, especially Jung.
To me, Xenosaga is ultimately a repudiation of ascetism in favor, instead, of following the path of radical empathy and using ones God-given talents, whatever they may be, to create the small ripples that will eventually lead to a better future.
Not the Episode I expected but a very good one explaining and clarifying a lot of things and starting to reach some conclusions about the series!
Thanks for bringing up my and other comments and sorry for distracting you with some minor details, haha.
I'm surprised it took this long to figure out the red testament for sure, I already assumed it from more or less the start and when Virgil
was revealed in Episode I I knew for sure. Also a very easy to forget scene in EpI is when Yuli mentions a 14 year old boy working with Joachim
and maybe slipping into Vector, his age matches up with that of Kevin (He would have been 28 in Episode I)
I was planning to ask you/the watchers about the fact that the whole series ends up revolving around Miltia but you already mentioned that!
It was very surprising and impressive to me how they managed to do that and how we see it from so many angles not to mention the whole
war build up in EpIII that might very well be my favorite section in any game. Just like a trauma we keep visiting that cursed place!
I'm pretty sure what they were trying to do with Kevin in the Miltia sequence is present him as a brat, but also show how Shion planted the seeds that'd change him later. Presenting that maybe he could change and be someone maybe we could like and find that he might have a good idea or a fracture that could be opened to make him realize he's wrong. Problem is I think they ran out of time, it was a bit too late, and he's done a lot of irredeemable things that'd makes at least me feel like "No not possible." BUT, he's not the worst I've ever seen in that aspect, I've seen way worse potential heel-face-turns.
Fascinating discussion! I love that Xenosaga is still being discussed years after its release. I played through the series at launch because I was a big fan of Xenogears, and both are still living rent free in my mind.
Thank you for sharing your personal stories in the context of these complicated, often flawed characters.
I love the Xeno games as a whole, but the super obtuse dialogue is definitely rough, so I'm glad you guys are bringing it up.
Due to the extra factor of translation, I do have to wonder how much the fault lies in the original dialogue vs the localisation. Having a very basic skill at Japanese, I don't think I have the skill to recognise if the original dialogue has this clunky feeling to native speakers or if it's just a difficult sentence to translate to English with all the concepts thrown around.
Considering how often it happens in these games, I'm leaning towards it could be a problem of the original dialogue but it's hard to know.
It would be interesting to ask a Japanese player if they feel the same about this exchange and scenes like this as a whole.
The matter on Shion and Kevin behavior is very important because it teaches you that you shouldn't judge a person by your immediate image of them since you don't really know their background or why do they act that way.
I have met people who on a first interaction come out as rude but when you get to know them, they can be really benevolent and loyal.
On the other hand you have lots of individuals who come out as "nice" but you will eventually find their true self as the worst selfish and backstabbing.
phenomenal episode again guys thank you. I feel every week of this 3rd game im enlightened just to hear theses discussions and be learning as much as i am.
22:30 love Mike's articulation of this
That whole conversation at 1:30:00 reminds me so much of ff13
There’s a whole cast with complex motivations and the way a lot of the characters act makes a lot of sense in context, but none of it matters because so much of the cast is so unlikeable lol
Hope in particular really acts the way a 15 year old would act with everything that happened to him, but all you’ll ever see is how much people hate him because he complains too much and every sentence out of his mouth for the first half of the game is is being moody
I really liked how this episode was done
Thanks guys. This episode got super personal.
Please talk about the music.
This, imo this is some of Kajiura's best work ever
Shion is attached to a memory of Kevin and doesn't want to let go, i believe thats the point, her obession. Also probably because her life was (at least from her drama queen point of view) all about suffering and Kevin represents a moment of what she percieved as bliss. But she didn't really knew him, it was infatuation.
17:30 - 26:00 that was a fantastic explanation of the issue of getting my friends into anime/jrpgs, etc. There are sincere powerful messages and themes mixed in with their ways of doing style, levity and comedy that almost because of their exotic, non-western way of doing them help to get more out of them for some people. Like for a while Dragon Quest sold a lot more that Final Fantasy did in Japan (not sure if it still does), and it was mainly because of the intentional western style built into it, but done from a Japanese point of view and Toriyama's touch helped normalize it for them. Or how for a long while how the Japanese loved British styles, you can see a capsule of that in games like Raidou Kuzunoha, Shadow Hearts 2 and The Great Ace Attorney.
There's a cultural gap that can become a barrier to some people, but once things can click on both sides, like the nuggets of interest you mentioned, that can create bridges to understanding and receiving messages. That's been the hardest thing introducing great games to my friends who don't know what they're looking at and just don't get it. And then when I get it to click, I get amazing results. My closest friend has been avoiding Final Fantasy forever. He started visiting me more often after work and just sitting in my room doing nothing so I used the time showed him FFX all the way through, he's in love with it now.
Liked the zooms in this episode to introduce more humour, love you guys!
I'm not an expert in Greek, but I believe "cosmos", besides referring to the universe, means order, the opposite of chaos. We always used to talk about it on the gamefaqs forums back in the days of XS1, having 2 mysterious characters, one named chaos, and the other named order. We had no idea what the nature of their relationship was, but they were clearly connected.
I would definitely support an NGE podcast! And a sequel for the Rebuilds too.
2:02:29 THANK YOU! Xeno fans can be so annoying and purists, Xenosaga fans expect one thing, xenogears fans expect another thing, and xenoblade fans want a whole another thing. i'm like 'why are you still here if the next game is not like gears/saga/blade???'
I like xenogears but i don't expect a remake ever happening. And if it happens i know it will need a new writting/script because some things in that game did not age well and it will need some obvious changes and i'm okay with that, but i'm pretty sure some purists will not like it 🙄
xenosaga fans want soraya saga back but what if she doesn't want to be back???
What i'm trying to say is stop expecting the next game will go as you want it to be because let's be honest that's never gonna happen. Each person has their own wishes, it's impossible to Tetsuya Takahashi to grand all these wishes in one game. Or ever.
Given Takahashi's position within Monolith Soft and the games themselves, I find it unlikely that Soraya Saga wanted to be back and was rejected. I know she had a very bad experience when Episodes II and III were being made/released such as fans blaming her for things that were no fault of her whatsoever. She may have decided to just walk away entirely from any story role.
Timestamps:
1. *Story Summary* (0:00:00)
2. *Responding to Comments* (0:02:45)
> The Vessels of Anima are named after the thirteen children of Jacob (0:03:31)
> Tetsuya Takahashi was not the director of Episode III (0:04:50)
> Foreshadowing of T-elos in Episode I (0:05:28)
> Does the intro work without the supplemental material? (0:05:56)
> Why did you not mention that Sellers built the thirteenth Emulator? (0:26:26)
> The name Wilhelm is possibly a reference to Wilhelm Wundt (0:31:09)
> KOS-MOS and Welltall reference the same thing (0:34:10)
> The meaning of telos (0:36:00)
> The Vessels of Anima, Ein Sof and the demiurge (0:37:36)
> Similarity with Neon Genesis Evangelion (0:39:23)
> Why does Mike wear goggles? (0:40:11)
3. *General Thoughts* (0:44:32)
> The Miltian Conflict is the real story of Xenosaga (0:45:40)
> Gameplay-first vs. Story-first (0:46:20)
> Thoughts on the 'timetravel' aspect of the story (0:49:02)
4. *Conversation between U-DO and Shion about eternal recurrence* (0:54:18)
> Experiences worth reliving life for (0:58:43)
> It all starts with gratitude (1:04:45)
> Pain shared is pain divided, but happiness shared is happiness multiplied (1:07:43)
> Fear is the mind-killer (1:08:49)
> Why is Shion so enamored with Kevin? (1:11:11)
5. *Thoughts on young Kevin* (1:14:39)
> Character writing in Xenosaga vs. Xenoblade (1:29:09)
6. *Vergil and Febronia's relationship* (1:36:22)
7. *Infiltrating Labyrinthos* (1:40:29)
> Conversation between MOMO and Joachim Mizrahi (1:53:15)
> Obtuse dialogue in Xenosaga (1:55:19)
8. *Questions from Patreon listeners* (2:07:53)
> You need your past to be who you are now (2:08:37)
> You decide the meaning of an event (2:13:30)
the obtuse dialogue was a primary point of criticism at the time. If you watch the old X Play review of xenosaga 2 that is pretty much what the whole video is about.
@@phillosmaster393 of course x play wouldn't give a good review to a JRPG that made real sandwiches for the player
@@cloudkitttruth. They definitely wore their bias on their sleeves.
I just assumed the googles were a nod to Nier’s creator yoko taro as a means to not take yourself seriously. And I’m glad to know it was affirmed in this episode. I just didn’t bring it up, because I thought we all gathered it. I didn’t think it was a situation akin to a emperor that isn’t wearing robes lmao
Hi Guys! Wilhelm is also Nietzsche's middle name! :) Before you do any research into Wundt. Keep the good stuff coming, this is great!
At the end of the day.... The goggles! They do nothing!
I’ve said jimminy jilickers so many times the words have lost all meaning to me.
Looking back at the intro, I played X3 when it first came out and, obviously, I had no idea the supplemental material existed until many years later.
I remember feeling like my expectations had been subverted, in a good way. The status quo I was expecting to step back into had changed dramatically with Shion now a rebel against Vector, Kos-Mos now being considered disposable, and the party having drifted apart for a while. It felt like the support structures and resources we and the characters took for granted had deteriorated, and the situation of the galaxy had become much more desperate and volatile off screen.
I don't think that feeling of the passage of time, and the changes in our characters' lives and environment, was a bad thing.
K-I-S-S-I-N-G!!!
the title is so good w/ the thumbnail of mike pointing at shion
Thinking about any moment that would make this life worth living again and again... I don't have one.
In fact I think life is pointless, meaningless, like somebody turned on the camera but the movie never started to happen and the camera keeps rolling but nothing happens. I'm not trying to "be emo" or whatever. I've felt like this for years, maybe decades, I'm still here and I haven't "abandoned the boat" yet out of the same apathy I feel for life. It's like I'm even too lazy or I feel too "meh" to even end it. It's like I'm waiting for time to end. I don't have a reason to be here, I'm single, no kids, I don't have a mission in life like "i work in somthing that helps people and makes a difference", no, I've always worked in regular boring office jobs. Life is literally "work to pay for the place where you sleep when you are not working" and nothing else happens. Not for lack of trying, I've tried making friends, getting a girlfriend, whatever, but it's all pointless and meaningless.
I can't think of a single moment where I was so happy or fulfilled that I'd relive this life, and if there was a button I could press right now to "stop the camera" in a quick painless way, like "push, done, it's over", I'd do it. I don't know what real joy or happiness feels like. Not even when I was a kid and I got for christmas what I really wanted so much, those moments didn't feel real. Not only the happy moments, the bad moments feel like "movies" or "dreams" too. I don't know if it's dissasociation or what's the right term, but just to name an example: if I go to a job interview, I rationally know the historical fact that it was me and it happened to me, but two horus later I remember it in the same way I remember a movie. I don't feel like it was real, it doesn't feel like it was me, it feels like "I watched someone else's movie". The same goes for anything, like going to the movies, I'm a big fan of Dune, I went to see the first part, and I remember the historical fact that I was in the theater watching Dune but I don't FEEL like it was real. I don't FEEL like it actually happened to me. I can't explain the total disconnect and apathy towards pretty much everything. It's not hallucinations or something like that, I don't confuse what's real and what's not, I don't hear voices or see things or whatever. I rationally know the reality of "that day I went to the theater, that other day I got a job interview, two days ago I got a call from the phone company offering some new plan with some bonus, yesterday I played guitar, last night I ate pizza", but none of it feels like it actually happened to me for real. If there was a scale of "realityness" with 10 beign "it feels totally real, I deeply feel it happened to me" and 1 is "I saw it on Tom and Jerry cartoon, obviosuly it's not real", to me everything that happens in daily life, or "big moments" like christmas, birthday, getting a new job, whatever, everything feels like a 5: "I know the fact that it happened to me, but I DON'T FEEL IT". I guess I'm coasting through life and just waiting for it to end because it's pointless.
The "goal" or "dream" of "I'll marry someone and have a family" or whatever the "normal life"is, seems like "if it hasn't happened yet it will never happen, I'm 25 years too late". I'm in my 40s, I'm not 20 anymore, it's too late to even try to find a vocation and fulfilling career, let alone finding the right partner to have a family or whatever.
I define life as "a broken Mario cartridge where you can't walk to the right, so Mario is stuck at the first screen, he can't even run into a goomba to end it, he's just waiting for time to end".
Sorry for the long post, I wish I could explain it better.
Oh, by the way, I watched a movie some time ago that I found terrifiying: I don't remember the name, Robert Redford was in it. A scientist discovered there is life after death, but it's the same life you already lived, with some minor differences. Like if you had a tattoo on your right arm, on the next iteration it will be on your left arm, but basically you are you again.
Some people took it as "awwwww" like "a message of hope!". I bet those are happy people that have meaningful lives.
To me the idea is hell. It's eternal torture, I don't want to be me again, I don't want this life or to be me in this iteration already and you are saying I get to repeat this again FOREVER??. That movie was more scary than any horror movie.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant.
Mate I feel you! I'm 43 now. I found the love of my life just a year ago! I know her for almost 20. The thing that brought us together was the death of my mother and her brother and the fact that her dog lost a leg trough a window fall. Life is strange mate!
@@IWFDI congratulations for finding love!!!. the deaths are sad, I'm sure that was devastating for the families, best wishes to the families.
thank you for enlighting me about life and death, my wife cheated on me and repeatedly still doing so and im almost ready to go, but thank you for the wise words, it gave me hope that things will get better one day and death is not the answer to anything.
2:05:14
"The Dean had his seventh epiphany today, which has given me an epiphany of my own: the Dean is a genius. He has to be. If he isn't, then I've given two weeks of my life to an idiot. That is unacceptable. Therefore, the Dean *is* a genius, and I *will* die protecting his vision."
😜
Sometimes bad things happen so that good things happen. My mother died 2 years ago from cancer. I lived with my mom til the end and I nursed her until that point where my skills weren't developed enough to keep her at home. She died 2 weeks after she went to the nursing home. After that I asked my, soon to be wife, to live with me because she needed a place to stay on the first floor because her dog lost a leg and couldn't climb the stair to her third floor flat. After a few month I told her what I really feel for her and we are together since. I would give everything to spent just a day with my mom again, but I wouldn't change a thing...
There’s a lot of things to comment on this episode, really engaging discussion. The topic of elitism in the Xeno community is definitely salient. Not even between gears and saga fans, but for the individual xenoblade games as well. There is a LARGE subsection xenoblade 2 fans who are incredibly vocal about the good parts of xenoblade 2. And while I agree with their points on xenoblade 2, they are almost radicalized in a manner of speaking-primarily because of the large vocal backlash of the games. Some of the criticism of xenoblade 2 having poor tutorials, bad pacing, and some of the female character writing is valid; however, it galvanized the fans of the games to defend it twice as hard. Xenoblade 1 and 3 were not the first massive story based Jrpg on a best selling console, they were not met with the same scrutiny as 2. And to an earlier point made, jrpgs have weird elements to a normal game consumer. And from this the average gamer perceived the xenoblade franchise as a “anime wifeu game” which we all know is wrong. I believe all the xenoblade games are good (3 is the best) but the xenoblade 2 fans have fought against armies of haters and have some PTSD when anyone criticizes the game. Leading them to analyze it a ton and see the game under a gilded microscope. If they used that same perspective on 1 and 3 they would probably see the same amount of love and care put into the story. There is just a level of defensiveness that comes with criticized videogames.
Speaking as someone who played Episode III years ago I was a bit confused with the opening sequence. Things flowed well but I was wondered "Why has Shion left Vector?" "Who is Doctus?". I heard The Missing Year existed but I heard that 'It's not that important, you can check the database for a summary.' and left it at that. So 2 years ago before Xenoblade 3 came out I decided to watch a Let's Play of all of Xenosaga and they played the translated video of The Missing Year. Suddenly events and details at the opening made more sense to me.
As for Pied Piper I feel the game does a decent enough job at conveying things between Ziggy and Voyager. They don't give you the details directly in the game(the database is there for Pied Piper) but you're able to infer what happened between them.
A correction to one of the comments you brought up: Kosmos does not mean chaos, it's a greek word that refers to the order or arrangement of the world. Kos-mos's name also comes from the flower, cosmos, which has the same meaning.
Which is also why T-elos declares, "I am Order, not you KOS-MOS!" when smashing her.
There is an optional ES super boss i think you guys should try in the game. You don't need to beat it, but at least progress thru the easy 1st phase. I suspect seeing the cutscene into the 2nd phase you will understand why I think you should see it as its one of the biggest references to a past game and makes sense why its arguably the hardest fight in the game, basically xenosaga's version of the ff7 weapon fights
Regarding the goggles, I completely understand the reason when it comes discussing religion, philosophy and psychology, but I find it a bit strange not being able to see a person’s eyes when they talk about such vulnerable and personal experiences. Anyway, thank you for being so open and honest!
Regarding the overly complex and confusing writing in Xenosaga, like the example you kept re-reading that starts with using "Lemegeton to control the Zohar":
I wonder if some of the complexity in the writing comes from the localization being perhaps too faithful at times. I could see a localizer or translator feeling overwhelmed by densely packed dialogue and being overly cautious about simplifying it for clarity, to avoid losing the original meaning. On the PS2, we no longer had the technical limits and poor management that Richard Honeywood faced during Xenogears. It's hard to think of any other Japanese games with writing and concepts as complex as this series. Some of this content is so difficult to translate clearly that I could easily see localizers falling back on more literal translations in places like this, which could sound clumsy or machine-like. Everyone has a schedule and budget to meet, and you can't possibly workshop every line to perfection. It's possible this was all easier to follow along in Japanese if Japanese was your native language.
Just hearing those lines you read, which are full of nouns and clauses, I could see it being tersely written in Japanese, full of relative clauses using the て form of verbs to describe sequential actions. The complexity is compounded by the nouns being qualified by all those verbs and clauses. This is my perspective as someone who has been self-studying Japanese nonstop for six years.
Reading Japanese with English being your native language, you can easily get overwhelmed by very long lines and sentences packed with clauses that qualify nouns. English is SVO (Subject-Verb-Object) while Japanese is SOV (Subject-Object-Verb). In Japanese, the verb always appears at the end of clauses and sentences, but my English brain can get lost in the structure, making it feel like a bunch of run-on sentences if you're unable to recognize the main verb in a sea of sequential actions and conditions. I think Casen could relate to this, lol.
This, of course, can all be called into question if we take the lines you were referencing in Xenosaga 3's Japanese script and break them down side by side with the English localized script. Perhaps I am completely off base as I don't have readily available access to either script, so I couldn't confirm it for myself before going on this tangent.
Contrast all of this with Xenoblade's localization efforts, which are very "Nintendofied." The Nintendo Treehouse localization team has been routinely criticized for how much they simplify the writing, names, and nouns in Xenoblade games, with Xenoblade 2 having it the worst. But aside from the creative liberties they sometimes take in the English localizations, perhaps they're actually doing a very good job at making the dialogue more readable and easier to parse. Localization teams now work more closely than ever with the core development teams and can routinely have open back-and-forth dialogue to clarify information they are trying to translate/localize. This was definitely not the case during the PS2 era, where we didn't have simultaneous worldwide launches for JRPGs like we do now with Xenoblade.
ruclips.net/video/Y33uUuF2KOo/видео.htmlsi=PEoD49KOlp1AvUPW
Here is a Japanese version of the game. The conversation they are talking about happens about 10.5 minutes in.
I'd like to hear these guys talk about the Yakuza games. They would have a field day talking about the symbolism of the tattoos in those games.
My understanding is that the eternal reoccurrence could have happened hundreds of times already. Wilhelm is part of the 3rd dimension, so his memory is also wiped. He just comes to the same conclusion of needing to reset the universe every time. U-DO is from a different dimension and thus remembers every single reset. U-DO making contact with people creates ripples in the cosmos, changing each reset slightly.
Mark and Casey are the best in the biz.
LMAAO I love whiny Jr. That was a cute side of him xDD
I think KOS-MOS is meant to be interpreted as "order" and not universe, as opposed to "chaos", two characters who represent complementary opposites of nature (and everything).
I cant remember if you guys have referenced it or not, but are we on the same page that The Song of Nephilim is a flawed and incomplete copy of Lemegeton? And that those people who are afraid of isolation upon touching U-DO are then transformed into Gnosis? And that all the Zohar is is a gateway to the upper domain where u-do resides?
I’m just 1 hour into the podcast, but I have to comment about Shion’s dependance on Kevin. I kinda suffered something similar in the Navy, but I lack the terminology to define what it is.
Kevin is the last thing before the Miltia Conflict and the first thing after it that gave her agency in her life. Between those 2 points Jin wasn’t the best brother/parent to her, admitting in episode 2 how he may have been too stern with her. She sees Kevin, who probably changed in some way because of the flower scene, as the one thing in her life that gives her the agency she needs to express herself and heal because he was the one factor that gave her the agency she needed and the ability to be vulnerable. After the trauma of the Miltia conflict and then years of stern parenting she interpreted as dissatisfaction from Jin, she was primed to latch onto the first thing that gave her peace.
I can understand why she does what she does, but I think she goes way too far with it, pursuing him all the way to the end of the game.
Just gonna say, I do appreciate that you already played through the game at this point and are talking about it from a perspective of knowing where it's going. I really think this suits you infinitely better than the blind playthroughs you did of Xenosaga 1 and FF XVI, and like, naturally, because ultimately those series ended up being in large parts you guys speculating over what might or might not be important, how it will be delved on, and well by definition you're not coming into a blind series from the position of having something to say and communicate about it, but instead having to try and figure it out as you go. IMO it's awkward for an analysis podcast.
Thanks for the tidbit about how the reception of Shion's character disheartened Takahashi. It's not surprising but good to know regardless.
33:11 Has it been pointed out yet that Wilhelm was Nietzsche's middle name? I always assumed that was the reason.
They pointed that out in the nietzche episode 1 of this series
Again, catching up, and I don’t want to spoil things, but the heavy emphasis on eternal recurrence in Xenosaga also um…shows up again, and is probably why that is my favourite game in that series lol. I’ll have to wait for that particular game to show up in your podcasts to talk further about it.
In any case, Shion and Kevin are sitting in a tree, and it informs soooo so much of Shion and who she is. Everything will be okay, Shion. :(
Sorry to hear that you have those intrusive thoughts, Mike. It’s rough. The whole conversation about this is really nice though.
Re Xenosaga to Xenoblade characters, Takahashi did correct because of the reaction to Shion, but that doesn’t mean the Blade characters are shallow or anything. They’re just more pleasant lol.
However, something to keep in mind with the reaction to Shion back in the 2000s was that it was very based in misogyny. There was a lot of misogynistic language around her (“shrill”, “hysterical”). So I do think it’s something to keep in mind, because that absolutely followed her character from Xenosaga 1, to 3, and beyond.
I also don’t think we have to like characters. Like, for instance, Virgil haha. And Kevin too, honestly. You can understand their plight, and even feel sorry for them, but still think they’re assholes haha.
And re the Xeno fans, as a Xeno fan, yeah lol. Blade still hits on MANY MANY MANY of the same concepts that Gears and Saga do, they just chill out on the technobabble and philosophical talk, and boil it down a bit. But Xenoblade 1, 2, and 3 explore all the same concepts, they just sit in the background more than Gears and Saga, who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Both are fine. Blade has their stories on a surface level, and you can take that, and it works, and you’re happy! But if you know what Takahashi is about, it’s VERY rewarding if you want to dig into the Blade games with those concepts and philosophies in mind.
And I think it’s totally fair that Takahashi has gone this way. Obviously, Gears and Saga didn’t set the world on fire, and Saga bombed out (sad…). So, I think it’s absolutely fair that he boils the story down to the surface level (and I don’t say that in a bad way), and then sprinkles the concepts he loves underneath for people to discover if they want to.
Final edit as I wrap up the video, but yes at “I never stop thinking about the mistakes I’ve made”. Lord have mercy lol.
Im gonna be real theres a segment of the Shion haters hate her because of how she treats Allen. They take it personally as if Allen was them. That didnt even phase me.
It wouldn't surprise me if this was the case. Allen can be viewed as a sort of self-insert character for certain fans. Smart guy and good at what he does but kinda hapless with the girl he has a crush on and struggles with his courage with respect to pursuing her. Takes any abuse from her (ex. her threatening to kill herself in a pod which would also kill him) because of his crush. He's also pretty much the one normal guy in a group of characters with super human abilities or many of which aren't human. He is a very relatable character.
There could definitely be something to that...but aside from the very end of this game, I feel like Shion actually treated Allen a little better than most of the other NPCs. The Elsa crew, the Professor, Miyuki, etc all treat him much worse and they don't even have much reason to. Those interactions always bothered me more than Shion's. Most of the time her rudeness towards Allen is purely a consequence of her being spacey.
@@cloudkitt I think a lot of it comes down to the "Oh, I didn't even notice you were there Allen" factor which is used for laughs at times but is also very dehumanizing. Shion's probably at her worst with respect to him in the first game, and I think is better with him in this game (she did agree to go on a date with him after all), although there is later a scene where she is quite mean to him. Granted that's part of a critical sequence that drives much of the Shion hate overall and is based on not just her treatment of him but a lot of stuff.
You're going go call me a liar for saying I don’t post online and then posting on two videos in a row. 😂
Seriously, though, just wanted to thank you for addressing my comment in the video. I agree with you that generally most confusing elements of the story are clear after a point (normally I'm the one pointing that out when watching or playing stuff with others). I think the Shion "catch the player up" monologue, and Voyager's introduction in XS2, just tripped me up and took me out of the story by making me feel like something was missing rather than feeling like these would be explained. They do get explained in XS3 but just to carch people up on stuff from the supplemental material. I don't want anyone to think I disagree that we probably got the best result possible when one considers the troubled production in these games.
I agree that this is the kind of game you need to play multiple times to get so I'm sorry to say I'm not actually playing along. I think I'd be preaching to the choir if i said anything about how long these are and there's a lot of other stuff to do just in terms of video games, let alone real life (just started Planescape to play along with your coverage of that game, though). By sheer coincidence, i think I played Xenogears sometime during your series on it and would have dived straight into Xenosaga, so it has been a couple years since I played. I do remember diving into the wiki immediately after finishing each game to pick up on things I missed, like you said, and that was when I discovered Pied Piper and Missing Year.
That got a little more rambling than I intended, but yeah. I really just wanted to thank you guys for going over that thought I had.
I forgot to add this, but talking about things you notice on a second playthrough.
If you go back and watch the XS1 cutscene where Cherenkov is given the Archetype remote by a hooded figure, you can actually see Kevin's face under the hood. You would never recognize him based on how little you see him in that game, but once you're able to recognize his face then it's obvious.
Just a minor linguistic tip: The "ein" in Ein Sof is pronounced like "ain't" as opposed to "eye"
Also in "Sefer HaYetzirah" the stress is on the "rah", as with most Hebrew words where it falls on the last or 2nd to last syllable
Thank you for the videos! You guys are nailing the analysis with this game! And because I know the shion analysis will come next episode, here is a very nice compilation of all the times she said "its nothing" in the series.
ruclips.net/video/1fBgH-cv3d8/видео.htmlsi=Z1KqLLcmgYSlKVhN
Fun to look back!
An Evangelion series on this channel would complete me, hahaha. Would be so cool to see in the future!
1:59:14 Ah I forgot you’re still doing this. URTVs are NOT realians. They are designer children. So while both came from a lab, URTVs actually grew from a fertalized egg, but with specifically selected genes. They were not meant to come into contact with U-DO. At least not directly or as direct as these realians are made to. URTVs are intended to react to and combat U-DO with their powers.
But these realians (specifically Cecily and Cathe because they were in these two kind of sarcophaguses) were misused because realians don’t share the same fear as humans to get isolated. As they said in these lines you thankfully repeated three times, they need a will to engage with the Zohar using Lemegeton. But in doing so they would come into contact with U-DO. Just like Yuriev and others did who either just died or developed an inescapable fear. (as well as super-human powers)
After rewatching, I can see why it came across like I thought URTVs are realians. What I was trying to say was the scientists are forcing URTVs and/or Realians (separate things) to make these contacts with U-DO in place of regular people.
Have always loved the perspective this and your previous channel brought to classic games, but man, it's hard to take you seriously in those shades
Good!
Personally I like to start each day with anger. That way I will never forget the hatred I have for my enemies :D
I used to dislike musicals too, but i changed my opinion when i started watching them FOR the musicals, not even for the plot anymore.
I feel like the database in this game is essential reading.
1:33:16 - Spot on about the execution of characters. I was annoyed with many of the characters in the series, and felt their flaws were put on blast disproportionately, which made the arcs harder to care about.
An interesting thing about paradoxes in time travel - How would you know if you were the first? Maybe everything leads to where you are because of those actions?
1:20:21 that's the first time I heard Mike swear.
Having played xenogears and xeno saga all the way through I've yet to play Xenoblade. But from what I've heard, blade is the company's third attempt at actually telling the story they've wanted to tell since Gears. And a certain way if you think about it, saga and gears are connected based on how episode 3 of saga ends. I don't want to give anything away but for those of you that have beaten saga probably can see what I'm talking about.
I just want to say that I read the title in the nursery rhyme rhythm and it works up until Anal. I mean.. uh..
Shion and Kevin Sitting in a Tree
Xe-no-sa-ga Episode 3.
Pefect.
Mike was wearing goggles?
You get burned if you fly close to the sun 🌞
An Evangelion series would have me sign up to patreon
you MUST do EVA.
It's funny that Casen thought Roth Mantel might have been a reference to David Lee Roth or Howie Mandel since those family names are both German as well. Roth meaning red (older German, modern German would be 'Rot') and Mandel meaning almond. (They are German names because the individuals are Jewish)
The name means "red cloak" 🫤
ManDel means almond, ManTel means cloak.
trailers for xenosaga 3 gave away the kevin reveal in that it shows him take off the mask.
The trailers for Xenosaga 3 basically gave away the whole game.
I just read something. Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche. I guess I was wrong. This ones fits better.
Speaking of instruction booklets for story, while the game itself wouldn't be as good to parse for book club format, I think Cased and Mike would love playing Tunic and commenting on it from how it moves itself forward very specifically via the instruction booklet.
The reference to instruction booklets made me think back to the super old school days when Metroid's instruction book writer clearly didn't even beat the game (well at least under a certain time limit) as they referenced Samus as being a guy instead of a girl.
I cant wait for Xenolost Jerusalem where the Xenoblade fans write it off as if it is worse writing.