Lead Acid vs LiFePo4 What's the Best Choice for Off Grid Living?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 ноя 2024
- If you are considering lead acid or LiFePo4 batteries for your off grid cabin or home you'll want to watch this video where I discuss real life experience with both Lead Acid and LiFePo4 batteries at my off grid cabin.
LiTime 12.8v 100AH 1280wh batteries in this video: amzn.to/40sJJJO
or amzn.to/4falipe
Check out the BougeRV CRPro and all of their other products here: www.bougerv.co...
For 27% off use code: Jarhead (good until November 30th 2024!!!
Protect your solar power from Lightening and EMPs! tinyurl.com/4m... www.empshield.com?coupon=oldjarhead
Need a good water purifier? Check out this one and use Erik40 for a $40 discount here: itehil.com/col...
Here are some of the tools I use on the mill, to seal logs and the camera's I use to film videos:
Split Duct for railing: amzn.to/3OSGG7c
Solar panel battery Maintainer: amzn.to/3GQc69G
amzn.to/3MHJWkJ -- My Rite In The Rain note pad, pens etc. It's awesome!
amzn.to/3ILpmNG -- Juice Box Battery (keeps my cameras running)
amzn.to/3uRVubU -- Jackery 500 (how I charge up my batteries)
amzn.to/3ONBa4b -- Anchorseal 2 -- it's what I use!
amzn.to/3tfLGur -- my big cant hook (now in Blue)
amzn.to/3LvOvfm - my small cant hook
amzn.to/3oVnPuK - my main camera
amzn.to/3QoXwZO - This is the media mod I use to get better sound and more
amzn.to/3Umbtur - GoPro Gooseneck Mount
amzn.to/3nXKlpJ - This is how I attach my mounts.
amzn.to/3nOgeRk - Granberg Portable Chainsaw Edging Sawmill
My website www.manleyporta...
[As many of you may know, making RUclips videos is hard work! It can take this Old Jarhead 10 to 12 hours of editing (and a liberal amount of cussing) to edit one video! To help pay for this the Old Jarhead is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com which may help cover some of the cost of camera gear etc in order to bring these videos to you!].
I've used golf cart batteries on boats and RV's for a few decades. I learned how to maintain them, equalize when performance started to decline and squeeze optimum performance out of them. I resisted switching to lithium batteries for quite a while but the prices have gotten low enough that I finally started making the change a couple years ago. Their performance has impressed me, especially the way the battery management system (BMS) works.
My engine starting batteries and the trolling motor are still using flooded lead acid. I'll probably stick with lead acid starting batteries because of their cold cranking capacity. When the trolling motor battery is ready for replacement it will be with lithium.
Maybe an old dog can learn a new trick after all. 😜
You'll love the light weight and greater performance of LiFePo4's for a trolling motor!
I had 12v AGMs on our 48 V inverter at a remote cabin for 22 years before I had to replace them. Sometimes in the winter I’d show up and the inside temperature would be -15F. They always worked as soon as I arrived. I took care of them similar to the way I did at my job I’m telecom.
@@Chris_at_Home Worked in Telecom myself until I retired. Definitely cold climates it's best to have lead
Good job, well said, agree 100%, 30 years off grid. Love my new solar. I can run microwave and save on propane.
Yup! It's really awesome off grid these days! So much easier and more comfortable 😉
I spent my career as an engineer in the merchant marine. Fire was and is the highest concern for me as you cannot call the fire dept halfway to Hawaii. I understand that lithium fires are rare, but if they were to self destruct the fire must burn itself out on its own, they would also destroy the structure that they are stored in. I have four 225 ah Trojan lead acid batteries. I have to watch them, check the water levels, clean the posts, and watch the voltages. They are stored in a room attached to the house. They power their own inverter for the house circuits. I run the vacuum, toaster, hair dryer, fridge, and all lighting circuits using them with no problems but at night I was very concerned about every watt that was being used, I really needed two more of those batteries. I have expanded my solar panels to around 20,000 watts, but 3/4 of them are vertical so they work in the snow and many face west for the A/C in the summer afternoon. I am 95% off the grid with $14/month PG$E bills. I need PG$E for air compressor, welder, lathe, and large table saw.
I recently bought ten Lithium 100 ah batteries, dug a section out of my hill 50 feet from my house and made a concrete bunker for them. I also repurposed a weather tight metal cabinet ( 3 ft form the bunker) to house charge controllers, inverter, breakers, etc and run an RV cord to the house and plug it into a bank of generac switches for 3/4 of the house circuits. If those lithium batteries go up in flames, my home is safe and so is the forest that I live in. I have lots of watts and never worry about running out of energy, I do not fret about leaving the 9 watt porch light on overnight. The lithium batteries are inexpensive and can undergo more life cycles, but FIRE is a big concern. I am hopeful that a safer battery technology will develop within the next 5 years.
FLA's are more dangerous IMO due to the hydrogen off gassing. One spark if not properly vented and "boom". However, taking precautions specially in the forest makes great sense.
Thank you for such a great video! Well done! I'm in Canada, completely off-grid, just installed 4 new LiFePO4 batteries, but I keep them inside our house so they are warm. They perform way better than any lead acid batteries I've had before.
You bet! And that's a great point: they are SAFE inside!
@@TheOldJarhead the only concern, or uncertainty at this point is their longevity, are they going to last 5-10 years? I used GoldenMate 200AH
Goldenmate batteries are great batteries for the money! I think any of these better quality LiFePo4's can last ten years or more but in truth, we'll have to wait and find out ;) Many manufacturers are warrantying them now for 5 years and I think I saw a 7 recently.
You have a very long and practical association with using batteries off-grid, meaning you have experience others can learn from. There's no question that LiFePO4 batteries are the better value, these days, when compared to any of the lead-acid chemistry batteries. Outside of cranking batteries for vehicles, and very cold weather applications, SLA and AGM really have no application in off-grid storage, anymore. The only challenge with LFP, as you mentioned, is keeping them relatively warm in frigid temperatures. This is honestly not all that difficult to do. In addition to batteries that self-heat, using small thermal pads, you can get solar charge controllers with temperature sensors that will not allow current through to the batteries unless that sensor is reading high enough. Another very elegant solution some folks are using is they build a small Lithium-titanate battery bank (safe to charge at -30c) and use that to heat a well-insulated enclosure for their battery bank. It's not hard or expensive to solve the problems associated with LFP...and it's absolutely worth it, for the reasons you listed.
Thanks and I agree. Truth is, lead needs to be warm too, in order to give 100% of it's capacity. At -40 it's way down on capacity and could be damaged as well! I use an 8000btu vented through the wall heater in a well insulated room (back room of my cabin - attached but only accessible from the outside, like a basement kinda) and a 500 gallon LPG tank to ensure my batteries and composter stay warm :)
LIFEO4 is the way to go, as no maintenance, best efficiency over the cycle, no gases, no water top up, moreover lead is heavy bulky and expensive than LIFEO4 in Australia. If I get lead acid for free even then I will be losing as those have terrible efficiency. I have 48v 16kw system with hybrid grid tie inverter and 5kw back up power.
You bet, LiFePo4 is a game changer in terms of efficiency!
I can not find a reason to use anything but LiFePO4 at the prices that we are seeing. I live in Georgia. We have “winter” but I’m not sure I ever remember sub-zero temps. A really frigid time here is 9 degrees at night. And that’s rare.
As for Will, yesterday he reviewed the Ecoflow LiFePO4 battery. 200 bucks and well made. Prices keep dropping.
Agreed! Spent some time in GA, loved it!
Great video and info
Thanks
Started with 60 watt solar panel, one 12volt lead acid. Upgraded to 120 watt panels, two 12 volt, up graded to four 6 volt with 400 watt panels at 12 volts. Will not run fridge and wife's CPAP machine at off grid cabin. Upgraded to $3,300 Signature Solar 48 volt, lithium Life PO4, iron phosphate G4 battery from Signature Solar. Copied Will Prowse on line. All in one G4 inverter converter. 10 - 400 watt solar panels. Never looking back. Best upgrade EVER. 48 volt only way to go. Do not use 12VDC. Use 48 volt from Signature Solar.
Agreed and Signature Solar is a great company!
we started with costco batts to, bought more every tax time,, then 2017ish we bought our 1st volt 48 volt batery module,2 a year up to 6, then got a pan of leaf batts, then 2 years latter a pan of Honda Honda Clarity batts,,if i knew then what i know now,, i tell ppl to go straight to 48 volt and lipo4 if you can
It sounds like you've really found what works best for you! I appreciate you sharing your journey.
I build 300a LiFePO4 modules and the eve v3 cells i use are rated for 8500 and 10k cycling
That's a ton
What are idea ways to keep LifePO4 batteries from getting too cold, while in the warmer months, too hot?
There are a number of ways (some in these comments). I keep mine in a super insulated and heated back room. Others make small 'dog houses' and super insulate and put in small heaters that can run off small solar setups and use heated LiFePo4 batteries.
Do you have to carry them in?
Yes. Then lithium.
Yup
Alot of the newer LIFEPO4 batteries have their own heaters .
Yes, however. ..
If you store those LiFePo4 batteries in a very confined space, with a heat-mat oro similar, they will outperform any lead-battery (no matter what lead tech) any day of the year, keeping them above 0 degrees C (freezing).
If you put them in a very small space, well insulated, with a heatmat - even the worst winterday of solar will make them thrive - vs. any lead technology.
LOL I literally just finished editing a video on that subject that will come out tomorrow! Cheers!
My favorite part of Lifepo4 battery is that they charge faster on the solar in my camper.
Absolutely! and are much lighter!
depend on your skill, i use lead acid, because i can recycle them and make it new battery again every 3-4years, lifepo4 however is a new technology not easy to recycle and i cannot easy get lithium to recycle them, lead however still plenty to find
Rare skill!
@@TheOldJarhead its not rare. There are many youtube video teach you how make a battery plate. Learning it practice it one at a times
@billykulim5202 Cool
We have a weekend cabin in central NY. We are on year 3 of Sam's club GC2 batteries. With my calculations these batteries should last us 10yrs+. Last weekend I just put a shunt meter in and this confirms my calculations. Granted 3yrs ago lithium cost alot more..but in another 7yrs cold weather lithium will be a hell of alot cheaper. Not worrying about my batteries in 0*f is really nice though.
I replaced my GCBs after 8 years but could have managed another year or two. Maybe, however, they were fully drained in that last year, and I knew they were cooked. Most of the best battery managers make it ten but rarely more.
@@TheOldJarhead I just priced out the equivalent of lithium vs GC2s..lithium would be about 25% cheaper for a bit more capacity. I can buy alot of battery heating mats for the cost difference. Also since we dont live there they only need to be warmed when we are there or charging them.
But remember, capacity is subjective. LifePo4's you can use 100% of their capacity vs Lead about 25% safely.
Very informative video. Do you have any thoughts on leaving LiFePo4 in an off grid cabin over winter? There is no heat and the battery is hibernating (no charge, no draw). My theory is there will be small discharge and BMS will allow wake up and recharge in the spring. Thanks for what you do.
Good morning. Leaving the LiFePo4's in the cabin over winter CAN be done BUT requires some planning. They should not be stored under 23F and not more than 6 months. For me, they are light enough that I'd take them home with me in the fall when I plan to button up over the winter (these LiTime's weigh about 23lbs vs 60lbs for GCB's (Gold Cart Batteries). The other option is to provide heat via a well insulated box and small heater or heating pads. In my case I use an 8k btu heater and propane to keep a super insulated room warm for them but I use my cabin year round so am there about twice a month.
Another option is a small solar panel and charge controller that runs a heat mat in a well insulated box. Leaving that on and the power to charge the batteries (solar) can also work but runs risks (though less than one might think -- for example, if it snows so much solar won't work, than it will be about freezing in the box which is fine and once the sun melts the snow off the panel it would activate the heater. Also LiFePo4's with internal heaters can work but require 10a of incoming power to activate the heater -- that combined with a super insulated box/room and solar to provide at least 10a and you would be good.
@@TheOldJarhead Great advice. I did take all the batteries and power stations home with the exception of one used 40ah battery to power a dc water pump. I'll take my chances with the experiment. I will explore the heat mat with solar panel you suggested.
Sounds good! If the battery has a panel it will get somebheat from charging.
I have 4 RENOGY 200AH AGM BATTERIES paired into 24 Volt Packs for My Winter backup and 400 Watts o Solar Panels to a 100/20 Victron Smart Solar Charge Controller with Buss Bars and Driving a Victron 24/1200 Inverter to power Reptile Heaters to keep My Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery Banks from Freezing during Winter here at 3,100 feet in The High Desert of Southern California near Big Bear Lake - anything to Add to this Application or Concept ?
Sounds pretty well thought out. Heated LiFePo4 's is an option or like me, a super insulated space with a heater 😉
@TheOldJarhead I have All of this in My 8 x 8 Well House Shed and well Insulated It for My Water Well Pump and Captive Air Tank and Electronics and now 4 Separate Solar Systems = My Water and Electric Depts. In one Bldg. now ⛩ Semper Fi
That's perfect! Similar to what I've done then. Semper Fi!
Most mfg's produce a self heating lifepo4 battery.
Yup, though they require power and without solar or some other means won't work. I've got a set I'm playing with that has heat but require a 10a charge to work
@@TheOldJarhead Awesome,. I'd like to see a video of that. Havent seen one on it.
I'll be doing just that ;) Once I get them charged up I'll be getting them cold in my camper with power to them to see how they do but I need to setup my charger on a power station I think to make it work as it's a DC to DC charger (I have a 10a 12v charger but that's not enough for two I think -- as each will require 10a I believe) but I'm working on it!
Jkbms will allow you to run your heating pads directly, whether or not you are connected to a charging source.
@@techsquirrell True and with so many cycles it wouldn't be that much of an issue really
The problem with Lithium is can't go below -4 degrees F. Have to take the battery home this week to stop from damaging. My cabin in Northern MN freezes well below zero. No comparison. Cheap, shitty system?, 12 volt, lead acid. BEST?, 48 volt Lithium iron phosphate battery system. Never look back. Charges in one hour from noon to 1PM when sunny. Requires 120 volts to charge. Ten panels in series are close to 400 volts. Voltage up, current down, lower size wires. For cabin off grid, 48 volt Will Prowse system is the BEST, EXCELLENT.
That sounds like a great setup, especially for the Minnesota winters! and yes, Will Prose is great! Love his stuff!
???
Lithium can’t go below freezing. Cabin goes below freezing. Lithium is best. Huh???
LiFePo4's CAN go below freezing, they can't charge below freezing though and the BMS will prevent them from charging to protect them. Heated LiFePo's typically heat them up to 42F before they allow them to charge. Obviously, if left in a cabin that will reach very cold temps it's best to use Lead or provide a heat source for the batteries.
????
Newer lipo4 have built in heating pads so they can be charged (below freezing) and also lipo4 is half the weight!
Yup, though they need a charge coming in to run the heaters typically.
@@TheOldJarheadregular lipo4 wont charge below zero... but if they have the heating pads and see a charge current they will use the charge current to heat then turn on charging...
Its just a way of guaranteeing charging in cold weather..
Yup
Has anyone looked into lead carbon ?
Not recently. There are some new batteries being developed like sodium, iron, and others, but today, LiFePo4 kinda rules
I went with Lead Carbon AGM, it is agm but carbon coated electrode, sealed,11kw charge rate @57.8v 190A, charge at -40c, no heaters, BMS, or equalizing needed, maintenance full charge every 30 days, 50% 3200 cycles, or 800 if you go to 0 soc, indoor safe, they have nothing to cause thermal runaway. Lead acid doesn't last, guy next door replaces his every 2 years. LiPO4 any battery that needs fire suppression built in, is not safe, if it needs a bms to prevent failure, it is not safe. Will Prowse poked a Li PO4 it turned into fire. I have one lead carbon 12v 100 you can discharge 1000 amps for 5 secs, not sure what test that was for. I went with lead carbon because there is nothing to fail, unless you drop them, after 1 year at 75% humidity no corrosion on the terminals. When my 1st inverter was over volt charging I did get some odurless gassing, to make the space ignitable would require over 3 years of gassing to get the air fuel ignitable, since replacing the inverter 0 gasses. Don't trust your inverter charge rates I had one that showed 2v lower than actual. The recent 10kw inverter show +.2v. Day 2 no sun, if this continues might have to run the gen for 2 hours on Saturday.
What was the cost of those?
@@TheOldJarhead I got the 12 100 for 395 cad, 19.2 kw 4k CAD
That means it's more than the same in common LiFePo4 batteries today 😉
@@TheOldJarhead It is getting there the cycle claim is still low at 3200, but they are new so maybe long-term tests were not possible. unlike the way they torture test the batteries. The most dangerous thing about these batteries is dropping them on your foot. my 12v 250 weighs 170lbs, those were $800 CAD each, if I buy 4 more next year go to 60kw should be 20+ years life.
Yikes! I'm broken these days and limited to about 25lbs...sovya LiFePo4 has the advantage there!
Hydrogen bomb wasn't about Hydrogen it was a nuclear weapon
Actually.... "nuclear fusion secondary stage containing thermonuclear fuel: heavy isotopes of hydrogen" Hydrogen WAS used in the 2nd generation and Hydrogen is HIGHLY explosive ;)
I wouldn't consider tritium or deuterium in nuclear weapons anything like comparing it to hydrogen gas but it is something the is produced in the process and is inconsequential exept it's ability to help in achieving critical mass of more fissionable material by sharing neutrons. "it is evident that both tritium and deuterium are used in nuclear weapons, but in a specific context. In a true hydrogen bomb, the secondary charge of heavy hydrogen isotopes, including deuterium-tritium (D-T) fusion, requires a solid lithium deuteride (LiD) source. This is because tritium undergoes radioactive decay and is difficult to confine physically."
But oxygen and hydrogen explosions are absolutely far more explosive than almost anyone understands like you were saying a large balloon full lighted will be like a stick of dynamite even without a encasement to increase its effects.
@TheOldJarhead they used plastic explosives not hydrogen
They used Hydrogen Isotopes. It's in the article I shared.
Is this guy aware of self heating lithium iron phosphate batteries?
lol ah yup...just finished video on some today 😉
You and most all of the commentators are completely wrong! Industrial flooded lead acid is the only battery that will last 20+ years and absolutely can be drained down way past 50% in fact they are designed to be completely drained and recharged daily! Do some freaking research! IDFLA! Yes they are extremely heavy but you are talking about off grid stationary power! You are all talking about golf cart or rolls surrets but research IDFLA! Mine are 9 years old and still are 100% of their original 1195ah yes they weigh 5000 lbs and you have to add water every few months but that’s all.
Fair point, but most don't want batteries that weigh over 80lbs 😉 much less 5000 ;) I worked in Telecommunications for 30 years and am very familiar with IFLA's but I would use them myself unless the cost and room required were simply so cheap that paying someone else to install them and the room for them etc was cheaper than my LiFePo4 batteries.