This is the goal: hard for both sides to meet it - 1 Corinthians 1:10 “I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.”
Well said, I have found charismatics and those who believe the gifts continue, have no problem worshiping along with cessationist, but cessationist won't even consider others. Sad.
It's true. Surprisingly lot of believer underestimate the works of the diabolos. Pastor Guzik is the one of the few who consciously & steadfastly works on the unity in the church.
@@KENHAUCKThat's because they claim it is of the devil. I think they are basically saying what the Pharisees said to Jesus when they claimed He had a devil because of His miracles and His teachings! Dangerous way of thinking!
It’s not the gifts. It’s the sign gifts. Tongues are real languages. And yes, we can pray and GOD can heal and do miracles. Also, when pastors proclaim God’s word faithfully, they are prophesying.
Excellent point - no apostle was with them, hence the writing of letters, often a point overlooked and taken for granted as if they were present and in charge rather the Holy Spirit was in charge, and the Holy Spirit is not one prone to confusion
There are many ministers today that loves the title of an Apostle, and they are self-appointed apostles that elevate themselves but do not have the qualifications, calling , and anointing of an apostle.
I am a Cessationist who thanks you for clarifying what Cessationist believe and don’t believe. We do believe G-s heals, and can do many things today. As he wills but just don’t believe in any one person possessing that one gift of healing, prophecy and miracles. But this is not my main statement. I agree with David that these scripture points to the more important matter of the subject at hand Love and unity and less on the gifts themselves. What I do appreciate is clarifying how all these gifts were being manifested among the Corinthians without an Apostle. As a Cessationist, I am not one to believe in prophecy by anyone, however that does not mean I would reject all prophecy as well, since there were individuals with that gift who prophecies to Paul concerning his journey. That to me is a different type of prophecy compared to those we hear today. I once heard a brother in Christ, who stood at the train station with a billboard, claiming that G-d will destroy the World Trade Center due to sin. He was specific in saying that they will be removed and fall. I worked at WTC-2 at the time. I thought his prophecy was far reached but it did occur as this brother preached before that event occurred. This is how I see it as a Cessationist- we are not called to believe in prophecy today so whether we do or don’t, it does Change our salvation. And if there was any true prophecy that G-d would have me heed to, as done with Paul, G-d has the ability to reach me with that warning. We are called to believe in Christ, not in gifts of Prophecy. Not believing in the gift of prophecy does not stop G-d’s hand in reaching me with a true prophecy either. I’d rather be a Cessationist and not moved by all the false prophecies today compared to a none Cessationist who is repetitively swayed by all sorts of ridiculous prophecies that is not from G-d because they can’t tell which is the true from the false prophecy. Thank you David
Very well said - thank you for your considerate attention to these issues and your powerful testament to His ability to reach us with prophecy regardless of our convictions. I hope that you will enjoy the following videos in this series as well. Blessings to you in His holy name!
I had a dream about 911 about a year before it happened. I didn't know what it was about until it happened. I believe God reveals what He is doing before He does it sometimes. Jesus even said that He told the disciples what was going to happen so that they would not be surprised or dismayed by the events. I had a few other dreams about my own life that came true and it gave me peace that God was in control when they did happen. I even tried to prevent one of them, but it happened anyway. You can't change what God has purposed in your life but God chooses to sometimes warn us about it so that we are not shaken or dismayed by it.
@@graftme3168 So you think that G-d give people dreams just to give them a heads up? That is not G-d. If G-d showed you a dream of something that will occur and told you to go and preach to warn the people, then that would be G-d because the dream served a purpose. IN YOUR CASE, just to let you know thru a dream had no purpose and so not from G-d. People always claim that G-d showed them this and that and they just kept it to themselves- that is just a dream. Dreams and visions have a G-d given purpose, not just to let you know.
I’ve got a great example of what you mentioned in this video when it comes to your last point. Two weeks before the Israel-Hamas war started, I had a dream in the Sierra Nevada mountains during a backpacking trip about a devastating war and many people dying. I told everyone I was with about it and we wondered if it was prophetic or not but I said I didn’t know for sure other than that it was extremely powerful and shook me to my core. Two weeks later the attacks happened and my dream became reality. I didn’t know for sure if it was from the Lord before but could see later that it was prophetic. God still speaks prophetically through His people, but we still need the humility and faith as well to accept that He does and that we may not always have the answer immediately
Very informative video, although I'd (selfishly) love for God to speak to me through a burning bush regarding His plans for me as an individual and plans for our country. Until then, I'll continue to trust Him. :)
I was part of the Boston Church of Christ movement and they also believed baptism is needed for salvation. They believed about the gifts that the Apostles could pass it by laying on of hands and those who they laid hands on got the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but no one but the Apostles could pass it on so once the Apostles died the ability to pass on the gifts of the Holy Spirit then the gifts of the Holy Spirit was no more able to be passed on. They divided the Holy Spirit into different parts saying today we get the Holy Spirit but not the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is one and not divided.
Cessationists when they bury the gifts, it is as if they are saying they're at God's funeral. Perish that thought ever - but this in essence is what is implied.
Why would you say that? Isn’t the rebirth the greatest miracle God could ever work in a man or woman? This comment shows me that you do not understand the cessastionist position at all. It’s not the gifts that cessasionists say are finished; it’s the sign gifts.
I get it, but positions, commentaries, and opinions are all overrated. it's not a pick-and-choose ala carte menu of what works and what doesn't. Either God works or He does not.
Good explanation. I agree with #1 and 2. I guess that makes me partial too. When will men learn not to add to or twist scripture to fit their own eisegesis? What about the Holy Spirit scares you?
Thank you pastor for this series. I was not familiar with the concept of cessationism. But now I am and I know some people that don’t think the gifts are for today and certainly not everyone is to receive them. Until we get the fully understanding of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Personally I don’t think the gifts are conditional to anything. Please correct me if am wrong. Merry Christmas 🎄
I would just love to see this in operation. I grew up in the Pentecostal church. Thanks be to God, that we had a pastor that did not focus on gifts- he taught the Word of God verse to verse. Sunday School was also expositional. When the “spirit would move”, I never saw the gifts in operation in the way the apostles did it. It was always chaos. People screaming and gibberish tongues. Also, I think people just mix up praying for God to heal and having the gift of healing. I’ve seen prayers for healing and miracles answered in amazing ways in my own life but I didn’t not perform these healings and miracles. Q: I’ve watched your three videos so far. Will you be covering the distinction between a real prophet and false prophet? Does a real prophet have to 100% right or can they be wrong?
I have yet to see anyone walk in the same power the apostles did in the book of Acts. 🤷🏾♀️🤷🏾♀️. To prove the cessationist wrong, all David Guzik has to do is present someone that has the gift of healing. RUclips is filled with many false prophet or vague prophets..... David can present a prophet who is 100% accurate.
Very true, the landscape has truly been polluted with many false and fake prophets. But the coming episodes in the series aim to address this widely held conception that what defines the proof or presence of miraculous gifts is reproducibility or permanence. By this metric, even Christ did not possess the gift of healing! Matthew 13:58 - "And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith." Oh how unfortunate would it be to learn that our own skepticism and lack of faith was what was restricting the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our own day and age! And as believers, no less! I pray this is not the case, but fear that, in some sense, it very well might be. That being said, there is no sympathy for charlatans and frauds, Christians should be the first in line to rebuke and expose those who make mockery of the Holy Spirit for personal or material gain.
I never heard Cessationist claim Apostles needed to be present for Gifts of the Holy Spirit to work. I heard Cessastionist teach that the Apostles could pass the gifts to others by laying on of hands and those who received the received the gifts could perform them and did not need the Apostles. But Cessastionist point out that the one who tried to buy the gifts turned to the Apostles for it and no one else because only the Apostles could pass it on. They use that as an example of how only the Apostles could pass it on. So according to Cessationist once the Apostle passed it on they did not have to be present for the Gifts inside another person to work. Cessationist teach Apostles spread the gifts of the Holy Spirit through laying on of hands and once they died there were no more laying on of hands from Apostles that could keep spreading the gifts and therefore, the Cessationist would also use this phrase: The gifts were given at that moment only to usher the kingdom with power. I am just explaining what I was taught. I am not agreeing with it but just pointig out to you what one of their groups, The Boston Church of Christ/Internation Churches of Christ teach.
“11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.” Ephesians 4 The gifts are given for a purpose. We need them , Praise the Lord we them ALL TODAY
@@jessyjonas4988 ?????? If the ear means "you have my ear" here goes: David's assertion in this video is there there's no Biblical delineation of what cessationist call "sign" gifts and "other gifts" - they are just gifts. (Unless I heard him incorrectly ). Your list for the cessationist would fall under the "other gifts". Cessationist believes the "sign" gifts of foretelling prophecy, tongues, healing, etc. have ceased as the foundation of the church has been laid by The Apostles. The teaching/outreaching gifts you listed are ongoing for the building and Edification of the church. I would assert that there is indeed a biblical precedent for the delineation of the *sign* gifts. Throughout the book of John, he calls Jesus' miracles *"signs"*. At the end of Mark (I'm aware of the controversy ). we have a list of *signs* that will follow those that believe - they include tongues, casting out demons, healing, etc. The Jews required a *sign*. Sorry, I'm no scholar so I hope what I wrote makes sense. Lol 🤷🏾♀️.
@@BouncySlim1 Merci You not being a scholar disagrees with the scholar From my scholarly view, you both make valid points. Each of us have gifts/ gift of the Holy Spirit to be used , let’s use them Those who don’t wanna, we leave them to Jesus MERRY CHRISTMAS
There is good Biblical support for a distinction of sign gifts because the Bible specifically labels the sign gifts that way. Prophecy and tongues: Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. (1 Corinthians 14:22, ESV) Gifts of healing and miracles would certainly fit under the signs of an apostle (signs, wonders, mighty deeds). Just do a word search on the use of the term signs and wonders throughout the Bible and this will become plainly evident. ”The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.“ 2 Corinthians 12:12 ESV
And Mark 16: 17 And these *signs* will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
The word "sign" means..."a mark, a token". The gifts are a mark or a token that points back to Jesus. All there gifts would fall into that category. The gift of "mercy", etc.
Wondering if you have more of a Biblical defense for your last point, Christians no longer being given the gift of perfectly understanding and communicating what God is saying. Is that in the "Prophetic" category? In what sense is differentiating that any different than Cessationists differentiating the gifts into separate categories?
We are all different - and many we are - and do not many of us have varying diverse gifts? but are we not then - ONE in the Spirit, working in ONE BODY as the Church of Christ? Are we not ONE in the Lord? or do we want some of that attention and center stage too? Limelight on me please - none of the disciples or apostles or Jesus was like that. Seems to me Pastor David points this out well in I Cor 12
I'm w David - if God or Peter or Paul or anyone would have said - it's only for a select few generations, or only for the now group, just this one generation, the Bible would have told us so. The Bible says ALL and that means ALL, every generation. Of course for some, if you don't want the gift, then the gift or gifts are useless to those who don't believe.
While it is true - the apostles/disciples (then) - are dead and gone the gifts they had - are not - for they were not theirs in the 1st place, they were God's - given to them, and they used them well - for good in preaching the gospel winning people to Jesus. When we argue among ourselves (doctrines/dogmas/debates/discussions that are opinionated) we divide ourselves, and the world looks on. So what was Jesus' guarantee of how they would know He was from God the Father, how they hated each other, how they argued like kids on the playground, or how they loved and cared and fellowshipped well and in peace with one another? The world looks on and says, see them hypocrites, they're no different than we are, so why would we want what they "say" they have. I will tell you what the matter is - it is a heart problem - of unbelief and fear. These do not want to adopt or annoint any self-proclaimed bishops, apostles, what have you, and with good reason, there are plenty of grandiose locos in line for that, so I can see their point there. The fear of misrepresentation, but in the Calvinistic like groups that wish to protect, in their own projection, are they also not misrepresenting? You ask how so? Glad you did. In not believing the gifts are operational and functional today and onwards Lord tarrying. That said, no one has a corner on the market of gifts, so they should put that to rest. Once we have a Hollywood actor on stage, they shouldn't be hard to spot, as disingenuine. The other issue is not trusting God - so what if they are, and you are not in control, is He not in control? Perhaps it is a test to this generation. Are we doing the same w the gifts now, as they did then? Are people coming to Jesus hearing of miracles? When we don't believe in the gifts Jesus sent his disciples out with (see Matthew) then what are we saying? We don't believe period?
God had to speak to the prophets, and Moses, and Abraham, and Job back then, because there was no WORD yet written and available to REFER to, besides how many times would God want to keep repeating himself to hard-hearted, stiff-necked, rebellious people, 20 Billion? No for this, He preserved the WORD over time for each to read, and get the same message and point.
Mark 16: 17 And these *SIGNS* shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 1 Corinthians 14: 22 So then tongues are for a *sign*, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe Throughout the Gospel of John, John uses the term *"Sign"* to signify the miracles Jesus performed. John 6:2 A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the *signs* which He was performing on those who were sick. (Sign = healing) John 4:54 This is again a second *sign* that Jesus performed when He had come out of Judea into Galilee. (sign = healing noblemans son) I believe there are Biblical bases for delimitation of *sign* gifts -- for the Jews sought after a *sign*.
I have a question please. Cessationists believe that after the canon was closed, I agree the canon is closed, God does not give more revelations, does not speak. If God gives no more revelations, then how did Cessationists know that God has given the doctrine of Cessation? Also, there is no foundation in Scripture to support the doctrine. The pillar verse Cessationists use is 1 Corinthians 13:10 in which Paul says that when the perfect has come the gifts will pass away. They give the private interpretation that the perfect came when the Bible was completed and canonized. However, verse 12 gives the time that the perfect comes. It is when we see face to face and know as we are known. These two phrases are 2nd coming words because it is Jesus that we long to see face to face and it is when we receive our glorified bodies that our knowledge is greatly increased so that we know as God knows us. So, the doctrine has been added to God's doctrines, God's Word, by the Cessationists. Also, even more so Cessation doctrine takes away the supernatural gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. How can they get by Moses' command, the writer to Proverbs command, and Apostle John's command, inspired by God, not to add or take away from God's Word lest one loses their salvation? Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Some people argue that the verses in Revelation only apply to Revelation. However, when one realizes that the Holy Spirit placed the same command in 3 other places (also Deut. 12:32) this put more weight upon it to be God's universal will.
I agree with you 100% these false apostles and prophets and those that "hear from God" other than the Word of God is out of control. thank you Pastor
Amazing that only 3 videos in, and Pastor Guzik has already torn down the unbiblical doctrine of cessationism.
I'd disagree, but look forward to the remainder of the series.
Be blessed 🙏🏾
This is the goal: hard for both sides to meet it - 1 Corinthians 1:10
“I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.”
Amen amen!
Well said, I have found charismatics and those who believe the gifts continue, have no problem worshiping along with cessationist, but cessationist won't even consider others. Sad.
It's true. Surprisingly lot of believer underestimate the works of the diabolos. Pastor Guzik is the one of the few who consciously & steadfastly works on the unity in the church.
@@KENHAUCKThat's because they claim it is of the devil. I think they are basically saying what the Pharisees said to Jesus when they claimed He had a devil because of His miracles and His teachings! Dangerous way of thinking!
Thank you for covering this topic. You are well respected even within cessationist circles, so I hope many will listen and consider your arguments.
Keep the Series going, it is an excellent classic in progress
I can't completely understand why anyone would believe the gifts are no longer for today. Maybe it's simply a lack of understanding of God's word.
It’s not the gifts. It’s the sign gifts. Tongues are real languages. And yes, we can pray and GOD can heal and do miracles. Also, when pastors proclaim God’s word faithfully, they are prophesying.
I'm really enjoying this series. God bless!
Amen me too✝️
Excellent point - no apostle was with them, hence the writing of letters,
often a point overlooked and taken for granted as if they were present and in charge
rather the Holy Spirit was in charge, and the Holy Spirit is not one prone to confusion
You are absolutely correct. The church is Corinth was filled with confusion which is why Paul has to write and correct them and give them order.
There are many ministers today that loves the title of an Apostle, and they are self-appointed apostles that elevate themselves but do not have the qualifications, calling , and anointing of an apostle.
Very true, it seems to often be a matter of vanity and self-centeredness. Thank you for watching and for this comment.
I am a Cessationist who thanks you for clarifying what Cessationist believe and don’t believe. We do believe G-s heals, and can do many things today. As he wills but just don’t believe in any one person possessing that one gift of healing, prophecy and miracles. But this is not my main statement.
I agree with David that these scripture points to the more important matter of the subject at hand Love and unity and less on the gifts themselves. What I do appreciate is clarifying how all these gifts were being manifested among the Corinthians without an Apostle.
As a Cessationist, I am not one to believe in prophecy by anyone, however that does not mean I would reject all prophecy as well, since there were individuals with that gift who prophecies to Paul concerning his journey. That to me is a different type of prophecy compared to those we hear today.
I once heard a brother in Christ, who stood at the train station with a billboard, claiming that G-d will destroy the World Trade Center due to sin. He was specific in saying that they will be removed and fall. I worked at WTC-2 at the time. I thought his prophecy was far reached but it did occur as this brother preached before that event occurred.
This is how I see it as a Cessationist- we are not called to believe in prophecy today so whether we do or don’t, it does
Change our salvation. And if there was any true prophecy that G-d would have me heed to, as done with Paul, G-d has the ability to reach me with that warning. We are called to believe in Christ, not in gifts of Prophecy. Not believing in the gift of prophecy does not stop G-d’s hand in reaching me with a true prophecy either. I’d rather be a Cessationist and not moved by all the false prophecies today compared to a none Cessationist who is repetitively swayed by all sorts of ridiculous prophecies that is not from G-d because they can’t tell which is the true from the false prophecy. Thank you David
Very well said - thank you for your considerate attention to these issues and your powerful testament to His ability to reach us with prophecy regardless of our convictions. I hope that you will enjoy the following videos in this series as well. Blessings to you in His holy name!
I had a dream about 911 about a year before it happened. I didn't know what it was about until it happened. I believe God reveals what He is doing before He does it sometimes. Jesus even said that He told the disciples what was going to happen so that they would not be surprised or dismayed by the events. I had a few other dreams about my own life that came true and it gave me peace that God was in control when they did happen. I even tried to prevent one of them, but it happened anyway. You can't change what God has purposed in your life but God chooses to sometimes warn us about it so that we are not shaken or dismayed by it.
@@graftme3168 So you think that G-d give people dreams just to give them a heads up? That is not G-d. If G-d showed you a dream of something that will occur and told you to go and preach to warn the people, then that would be G-d because the dream served a purpose. IN YOUR CASE, just to let you know thru a dream had no purpose and so not from G-d.
People always claim that G-d showed them this and that and they just kept it to themselves- that is just a dream. Dreams and visions have a G-d given purpose, not just to let you know.
I’ve got a great example of what you mentioned in this video when it comes to your last point. Two weeks before the Israel-Hamas war started, I had a dream in the Sierra Nevada mountains during a backpacking trip about a devastating war and many people dying. I told everyone I was with about it and we wondered if it was prophetic or not but I said I didn’t know for sure other than that it was extremely powerful and shook me to my core. Two weeks later the attacks happened and my dream became reality. I didn’t know for sure if it was from the Lord before but could see later that it was prophetic. God still speaks prophetically through His people, but we still need the humility and faith as well to accept that He does and that we may not always have the answer immediately
Who decided which gift is and which gift is not valid anymore, as it does not say anything about it , as Pastor reminded us!
Very informative video, although I'd (selfishly) love for God to speak to me through a burning bush regarding His plans for me as an individual and plans for our country. Until then, I'll continue to trust Him. :)
I was part of the Boston Church of Christ movement and they also believed baptism is needed for salvation. They believed about the gifts that the Apostles could pass it by laying on of hands and those who they laid hands on got the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but no one but the Apostles could pass it on so once the Apostles died the ability to pass on the gifts of the Holy Spirit then the gifts of the Holy Spirit was no more able to be passed on. They divided the Holy Spirit into different parts saying today we get the Holy Spirit but not the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is one and not divided.
Cessationists when they bury the gifts,
it is as if they are saying they're at God's funeral.
Perish that thought ever - but this in essence is what is implied.
Why would you say that? Isn’t the rebirth the greatest miracle God could ever work in a man or woman? This comment shows me that you do not understand the cessastionist position at all. It’s not the gifts that cessasionists say are finished; it’s the sign gifts.
I get it, but positions, commentaries, and opinions are all overrated.
it's not a pick-and-choose ala carte menu of what works and what doesn't. Either God works or He does not.
Good explanation. I agree with #1 and 2. I guess that makes me partial too. When will men learn not to add to or twist scripture to fit their own eisegesis? What about the Holy Spirit scares you?
Amen Preacher
I hate it when you point out the flaws in my theology David! LOL (No sign gifts and other gifts). #thankyou
Thank you pastor for this series. I was not familiar with the concept of cessationism. But now I am and I know some people that don’t think the gifts are for today and certainly not everyone is to receive them. Until we get the fully understanding of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Personally I don’t think the gifts are conditional to anything.
Please correct me if am wrong.
Merry Christmas 🎄
Who determines "false categories" when and where God is at work
do they put up construction cones too, and say danger do not enter?
I would just love to see this in operation. I grew up in the Pentecostal church. Thanks be to God, that we had a pastor that did not focus on gifts- he taught the Word of God verse to verse. Sunday School was also expositional. When the “spirit would move”, I never saw the gifts in operation in the way the apostles did it. It was always chaos. People screaming and gibberish tongues. Also, I think people just mix up praying for God to heal and having the gift of healing. I’ve seen prayers for healing and miracles answered in amazing ways in my own life but I didn’t not perform these healings and miracles.
Q: I’ve watched your three videos so far. Will you be covering the distinction between a real prophet and false prophet? Does a real prophet have to 100% right or can they be wrong?
I have yet to see anyone walk in the same power the apostles did in the book of Acts. 🤷🏾♀️🤷🏾♀️.
To prove the cessationist wrong, all David Guzik has to do is present someone that has the gift of healing.
RUclips is filled with many false prophet or vague prophets..... David can present a prophet who is 100% accurate.
Very true, the landscape has truly been polluted with many false and fake prophets. But the coming episodes in the series aim to address this widely held conception that what defines the proof or presence of miraculous gifts is reproducibility or permanence.
By this metric, even Christ did not possess the gift of healing!
Matthew 13:58 - "And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith."
Oh how unfortunate would it be to learn that our own skepticism and lack of faith was what was restricting the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our own day and age! And as believers, no less! I pray this is not the case, but fear that, in some sense, it very well might be. That being said, there is no sympathy for charlatans and frauds, Christians should be the first in line to rebuke and expose those who make mockery of the Holy Spirit for personal or material gain.
I never heard Cessationist claim Apostles needed to be present for Gifts of the Holy Spirit to work. I heard Cessastionist teach that the Apostles could pass the gifts to others by laying on of hands and those who received the received the gifts could perform them and did not need the Apostles. But Cessastionist point out that the one who tried to buy the gifts turned to the Apostles for it and no one else because only the Apostles could pass it on. They use that as an example of how only the Apostles could pass it on. So according to Cessationist once the Apostle passed it on they did not have to be present for the Gifts inside another person to work. Cessationist teach Apostles spread the gifts of the Holy Spirit through laying on of hands and once they died there were no more laying on of hands from Apostles that could keep spreading the gifts and therefore, the Cessationist would also use this phrase: The gifts were given at that moment only to usher the kingdom with power. I am just explaining what I was taught. I am not agreeing with it but just pointig out to you what one of their groups, The Boston Church of Christ/Internation Churches of Christ teach.
“11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry and to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.”
Ephesians 4
The gifts are given for a purpose. We need them , Praise the Lord we them ALL TODAY
Those are not the gifts the cessationist claim to have ceased.
@@BouncySlim1 👂
@@jessyjonas4988 ??????
If the ear means "you have my ear" here goes:
David's assertion in this video is there there's no Biblical delineation of what cessationist call "sign" gifts and "other gifts" - they are just gifts. (Unless I heard him incorrectly ).
Your list for the cessationist would fall under the "other gifts". Cessationist believes the "sign" gifts of foretelling prophecy, tongues, healing, etc. have ceased as the foundation of the church has been laid by The Apostles. The teaching/outreaching gifts you listed are ongoing for the building and Edification of the church.
I would assert that there is indeed a biblical precedent for the delineation of the *sign* gifts. Throughout the book of John, he calls Jesus' miracles *"signs"*. At the end of Mark (I'm aware of the controversy ). we have a list of *signs* that will follow those that believe - they include tongues, casting out demons, healing, etc. The Jews required a *sign*.
Sorry, I'm no scholar so I hope what I wrote makes sense. Lol 🤷🏾♀️.
@@BouncySlim1 Merci
You not being a scholar disagrees with the scholar
From my scholarly view, you both make valid points. Each of us have gifts/ gift of the Holy Spirit to be used , let’s use them
Those who don’t wanna, we leave them to Jesus
MERRY CHRISTMAS
There is good Biblical support for a distinction of sign gifts because the Bible specifically labels the sign gifts that way.
Prophecy and tongues:
Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. (1 Corinthians 14:22, ESV)
Gifts of healing and miracles would certainly fit under the signs of an apostle (signs, wonders, mighty deeds). Just do a word search on the use of the term signs and wonders throughout the Bible and this will become plainly evident.
”The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.“
2 Corinthians 12:12 ESV
1 Cor 14:22 “So then tongues are for a sign” . Wouldn’t this be a “hint” that there are different categories?
And
Mark 16: 17 And these *signs* will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
The word "sign" means..."a mark, a token".
The gifts are a mark or a token that points back to Jesus.
All there gifts would fall into that category.
The gift of "mercy", etc.
Wondering if you have more of a Biblical defense for your last point, Christians no longer being given the gift of perfectly understanding and communicating what God is saying. Is that in the "Prophetic" category? In what sense is differentiating that any different than Cessationists differentiating the gifts into separate categories?
We are all different - and many we are - and do not many of us have varying diverse gifts?
but are we not then - ONE in the Spirit, working in ONE BODY as the Church of Christ?
Are we not ONE in the Lord? or do we want some of that attention and center stage too?
Limelight on me please - none of the disciples or apostles or Jesus was like that.
Seems to me Pastor David points this out well in I Cor 12
I just want Jesus Christ,and to understand what I read
I'm w David - if God or Peter or Paul or anyone would have said - it's only for a select few generations, or only for the now group, just this one generation, the Bible would have told us so. The Bible says ALL and that means ALL, every generation. Of course for some, if you don't want the gift, then the gift or gifts are useless to those who don't believe.
Very well said. Amen!
Prophets who messed up then were stoned and killed,
so God was merciful to the many who would mess up and not get it right
While it is true - the apostles/disciples (then) - are dead and gone
the gifts they had - are not - for they were not theirs in the 1st place,
they were God's - given to them, and they used them well - for good
in preaching the gospel winning people to Jesus.
When we argue among ourselves (doctrines/dogmas/debates/discussions that are opinionated) we divide ourselves, and the world looks on. So what was Jesus' guarantee of how they would know He was from God the Father, how they hated each other, how they argued like kids on the playground, or how they loved and cared and fellowshipped well and in peace with one another? The world looks on and says, see them hypocrites, they're no different than we are, so why would we want what they "say" they have.
I will tell you what the matter is - it is a heart problem - of unbelief and fear.
These do not want to adopt or annoint any self-proclaimed bishops, apostles, what have you, and with good reason, there are plenty of grandiose locos in line for that, so I can see their point there. The fear of misrepresentation, but in the Calvinistic like groups that wish to protect, in their own projection, are they also not misrepresenting?
You ask how so? Glad you did.
In not believing the gifts are operational and functional today and onwards Lord tarrying.
That said, no one has a corner on the market of gifts, so they should put that to rest. Once we have a Hollywood actor on stage, they shouldn't be hard to spot, as disingenuine.
The other issue is not trusting God - so what if they are, and you are not in control, is He not in control? Perhaps it is a test to this generation. Are we doing the same w the gifts now, as they did then? Are people coming to Jesus hearing of miracles?
When we don't believe in the gifts Jesus sent his disciples out with (see Matthew) then what are we saying? We don't believe period?
God had to speak to the prophets, and Moses, and Abraham, and Job back then,
because there was no WORD yet written and available to REFER to, besides how many times would God want to keep repeating himself to hard-hearted, stiff-necked, rebellious people, 20 Billion? No for this, He preserved the WORD over time for each to read, and get the same message and point.
Mark 16: 17 And these *SIGNS* shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
1 Corinthians 14: 22 So then tongues are for a *sign*, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe
Throughout the Gospel of John, John uses the term *"Sign"* to signify the miracles Jesus performed.
John 6:2 A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the *signs* which He was performing on those who were sick. (Sign = healing)
John 4:54 This is again a second *sign* that Jesus performed when He had come out of Judea into Galilee. (sign = healing noblemans son)
I believe there are Biblical bases for delimitation of *sign* gifts -- for the Jews sought after a *sign*.
God does not give out "artificial gifts"
like Satan who does give out their fascination w "artificial intelligence"
I have a question please. Cessationists believe that after the canon was closed, I agree the canon is closed, God does not give more revelations, does not speak.
If God gives no more revelations, then how did Cessationists know that God has given the doctrine of Cessation?
Also, there is no foundation in Scripture to support the doctrine.
The pillar verse Cessationists use is 1 Corinthians 13:10 in which Paul says that when the perfect has come the gifts will pass away. They give the private interpretation that the perfect came when the Bible was completed and canonized. However, verse 12 gives the time that the perfect comes. It is when we see face to face and know as we are known. These two phrases are 2nd coming words because it is Jesus that we long to see face to face and it is when we receive our glorified bodies that our knowledge is greatly increased so that we know as God knows us.
So, the doctrine has been added to God's doctrines, God's Word, by the Cessationists.
Also, even more so Cessation doctrine takes away the supernatural gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.
How can they get by Moses' command, the writer to Proverbs command, and Apostle John's command, inspired by God, not to add or take away from God's Word lest one loses their salvation?
Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Some people argue that the verses in Revelation only apply to Revelation. However, when one realizes that the Holy Spirit placed the same command in 3 other places (also Deut. 12:32) this put more weight upon it to be God's universal will.
Very well stated, great distillation of the issue!
I believe you sir