edit: Just a clarification, this video is NOT about individual parasocialism, where a vtuber SPECIFICALLY goes out of their way to dm YOU, or comment to YOU in a parasocial way. This is about group parasocialism, where a vtuber tries to do girlfriend ASMR to a livestreamed collective, or acts like an idol-character on stream. If a vtuber interacts with you personally, that isn't even parasocialism, as parasocial behavior is speaking on when you have NO independent connection to whatever you're talking about. You do not speak to them, you do not connect with them personally. surprise, women like parasocialism too, i'm gonna go hug my kyomora plushie and look at my umi picture where she says she loves me forever timestamps ⤵ 00:00 - Intro 00:43 - Disclaimer 01:19 - "Parasocial" 03:13 - VTubers WANT to sell you Fantasy 06:00 - Disconnecting Yourself 07:07 - It's Okay to ENJOY The Fantasy 08:39 - Some VTubers don't WANT to create a Fantasy 10:07 - The Point 11:15 - Outro
*Right On! Reality Checking is something this industry Desperately Needs.* *And your delivery of your topics is concise and considerate (and Funny).* *Thank you.* ❤️
Depressed Nousagi made good categorisation pf paradoxical relationship. Vtubers can be parasocial to their fans. And viewers may be parasocial to community of vtuber or chat. Twitch doing a lot for this since it expands ways to interact with streamers
I know some vtubers that are definitely parasocial with their fanbase, and they bring them joy, and they really want to interact with them all the time because they genuinely do indulge in that connection, and it's totally fine and normal. Definitely just ends up being something that is best if you know the limits and moderate yourself, but it's fine to enjoy yourself!
Once again Oshi no Ko sums it up pretty good. Idols (Vtubers) sell you pretty lies, and most of the audience accepts that it's a lie but wants it anyways. The problem only arises when a part of the audience starts believing the lie or gets angry once they realize it isn't real. Simply wanting to be lied to and taking part in the lie isn't a problem in and of itself. It's a large part of the appeal of idols and vtubers. Obviously some vtuber try to remove that aspect of their appeal, but it's rare that it ever goes away completely. Really good video that made it easy to follow and understand where the line goes and what's ok and what isn't.
This this this!! I actually met up with an kaigai idol at Offkai expo recently, and I'm a pretty awkward person irl, so I felt like she kinda swapped into idol mode to talk to me. But, I still enjoyed it. She was sparkling, she was a joy to interact with. It's okay to enjoy that stuff!
I was tempted to make a video or something about this actually! Because when people talk about parasocialism its always about the negative or extreme style, but I think a lot of people don't realize that parasocialism has been around for literally like hundreds of years LOL, and how misunderstood it can be sometimes!! Great video, keep up the good work! 👍 !!!
yessss, caroline actually mentioned this in her video, it's been around practically since the dawn of civilization itself tbh. It's fine to be parasocial, it's literally just a human thing, it's only bad when it goes TOO far!
This is a great video to talk about this sort of thing. It's always good to remember what's real and what's not in a good way. But also make sure you don't go into a dark place with Parasocialism.
Thanks so much for all these fantastic videos. You're doing such a great job presenting balanced, sensible points of view on topics that can easily spark anger and misunderstanding - a true voice of reason, which we're needing more and more of in the Vtubing world, to say nothing of the world in general 😅
ALL OF THIS- I think a lot of the issue also lies within how they got onto the internet- I started with fleshtubers or people without any kind of character to represent or sell so there is no "oh your my *insert whatever it is here* as much as there is with vtubers who sell fantasies and characters, but I also know a lot of fleshtubers I watch are uncomfortable with the idea of selling a character or a fantasy, there are no oshi's for people to latch onto and convince themselves they know the character personally. Most are just themselves and people either love em or hate em MASSIVE non-vtuber streamers ofc do get that kind of weird behaviour, but I find it's more intense with the vtubing community and sometimes it's harder to squash, there are so many vtubers who get hated on for telling their communities lines like "I don't actually know you" and it's unfair. There are so many irl jobs too that people obsess over the people they interact with, I might lose my job if I tell them to stop cause of just BS but I won't get publicly shamed for it either. I rather enjoy hearing ASMR or streamers who sell a fantasy but coming from a fleshtuber watching background, the idea of thinking those people KNOW me is so crazy. I get the call and response in the active moments of the ASMR or fantasy selling moments, livestreamed or not, as that's obviously part of the idea. I often end up talking to my friends about vtubers who get shat on for saying no but then saying "well they started it by doing it in the first place" but that mindset is SO toxic! People who do adult work are gunna get creepy stuff but that doesn't mean it's fair for people to say "well you did this job so you don't get to complain", it's the same vibe in a different setting and it's WILD to me that people think it's okay to say that!
Enjoy the videos and how they have been quite informative and concise. Keep being yourself (everyone!). It's a nice change, as some mentioned too,to not always look at para-socialism as a bad thing. With the last (or first?) comment I saw you also mentioned how playing a character is much easier to entertain people. It is ! In a way, I feel some streamers/creators (face cam or non) can be or act as a character. I know , I am usually not how I am online on the stream, as I am in real life. I am a lot more outgoing/talkative on stream, in person I'm quite shy and to myself. That's my "Character" even though it's still me. Not sure if this makes sense anymore, just rambling on now haha! Again, great videos!
It's a hard one, especially for me. Was well aware of pair a social/ simp culture 2ay befor i started watching vtubers and vibing in their communities, and it's one of the reasons that in almost 5 years i haven't made a single friend in the space. The brain worms get bad for one streamer i watch because they've had a vary hard time the past 2 years and i know she genuinely likes having me around because of two micro bipolar episodes. And yet my PTSD still tels me that everyone in my life is happier if im not apart of their life, and i deal with insomnia because of it. I'd be nice if life had clear answers but lets be real 90% of the human existence is in gray. We can only do ower best for the sake of everyone we love.
1:43 Ngl I'm a mixed bag... like piemation mentioned of himself becoming an amalgamation of all his different media-medium-OC's... 4:02 Yeah I'm familiar. It's like the 4:254:38 I feel trapped in fantasies sometimes... in a weird way, like "because I don't exist in the work of media, I don't exist and am actually "one with the character"... and it makes me feel weird... so I just prefer media where characters look kinda like how I'd want to look? It's weird... 6:156:22 Very... 6:40 Fan kills her! O o f 7:11 I get paralyzed to the point where I just say fuck it and judge people for everything... and then shut down for months after... in part... yeah my ability to set barriers and still cognitively function fully with those barriers in place... is debatable. I know I need to loosen the chains, but I don't know which ones fully, because my brain is stuck in fight or flight, sorta... for particular things and topics... I don't know why... or if I'm just rambling random stuff that may or may not actually be true of myself, in hopes of getting something out of it. 8:24 Oh yep... I get like that sometimes, but not with relationships 8:33 Oh nope. 11:35 Me being an anime girl on the internet was weird in VR Chat... but I'd love to do something like that again, it's just... I'm a massive perfectionist who needs things to be certain ways... or "thinks" they need things certain ways, but it can't all just be in my head!?
A lot of the points here are exactly how I feel about parasocialism. There's a boundary that needs to be respected between fans and Vtubers. I see it as not that much different from fans and celebs. I also hate the comments from viewers to streamers who're grown women being told they "shouldn't be swearing" or things like that so they'd be "more attractive". Bruh Twitch isn't a dating app go outside!
haha, truee, or people who show up telling me all about what their ideal hair length is or about how they prefer curvy women or something like, bruh, i don't care, literally does not matter to me, go somewhere else 😂
This happens way to often to a lot people and vtubers to which is really messed up on so many levels and this is why I tend to not befriend any vtubers or just in general I watch there content and respect what they do beyond that. We all have limits and boundaries for a reason.
Streaming is such a conundrum for ideas about parasocial relationships. Cause like... the actual meaning of 'Parasocial Relationship' is a necessarily one sided (i.e., no actual interaction between the person and the figure they perceive a relationship with) mediated relationship which someone responds to emotionally as if it were a real relationship. The fact that streamers regularly interact with their chats, both during streams and on discord servers and other social media sites like Twitter and all those, means those interactions don't actually meet the definition of a parasocial relationship and never have. They're just, you know, very shallow (possibly transactional) two-way relationships. Like (please forgive the metaphor but this is what springs to mind) the relationship between a regular at the strip club and their favorite dancer or whathaveyou: is she the regular's friend? Probably not, but they do sit down and talk from to time and see each other relatively often. It's not an _authentic_ relationship but it *is* a real, shallow, transactional relationship. And the presence of a screen between a person and a live entertainer doesn't really change that once those two people start to interact regularly.
I kind of hate parasocialism. I hate celebrity worship, I hate stan culture, and back in the day I would probably be the guy getting his head cut off for saying that everyone is a fucking idiot for worshiping and idolizing the pope or the king or whatever haha And the kinds of people that specifically try to create a fantasy of having a connection with someone for money just seems exploitative and manipulative. It’s fucking disgusting. I just watch the stupid funny anime women in RUclips clips in order to laugh, I really am starting to think my way of engaging with vtuber content is the best possible way to do it. Your videos are an exception to what most vtubers are trying to do because your videos are about the ideas you’re presenting, you’re not trying to manipulate people into thinking you’re their friend or you like them. The visuals of your video could be a black screen and you could use a voice changer to sound like a guy and I think most people would keep watching your stuff, at least I would.
@@plasmabat718 I agree to an extent, I personally just don't engage with content like that. If I want a connection, I want a REAL connection, not a fake fantasy somebody is trying to sell me. But, I don't think it's all that harmful, I guess, as long as it doesn't go too far. If it stays in reasonable levels, I can see why people would want to engage in that kind of content, even if it's not my thing. I won't judge someone for enjoying it, really.. I just won't do it myself 😂
@@koziitwo I won’t shame the person for engaging with it like I won’t shame someone for abusing alcohol or other substances but if there’s any chance that they’ll listen to me I’ll tell them that they’re hurting themselves by using these things.
Thank you for the nuanced take! I've been getting nervous hearing the discourse of people wanting to "change vtubing" to remove the kayfabe and fantasy. If you don't want that, that's fine, but I don't like the idea of "we have to change vtubing and make it "better" because *I* don't like parasocialism" Personally, I vtube because I love the fantasy. I want to create a vtubing experience where it's like talking to an anime adventurer and provide a bit of "escape from reality" c:
I can't really relate with wanting to create a fantasy or being part of a fantasy when it comes to the more extreme ones like relationship ones primarily but I don't have it in me to judge those who are interested in that kind of thing. More than that I more-so can't relate with people wanting to shun those who do; I can't respect anybody who actively harasses those they do not understand, bigotry doesn't justify bullying and our history as a species has taught that lesson many times. I don't think any being is immune to being parasocial or feeding into that fantasy, being parasocial is something strictly human and that's what makes it beautiful in a way. Just like all things; you must seek balance within your emotions and your logic to really live the happiest life you can lead. Just let people live and do what makes them happy, you're more likely to suffer if you cause suffering for others and it takes unnecessary effort to spread negativity anyways.
They've done studies on parasocial relationships and discovered that it doesn't actually affect the person's ability to function and such unless it becomes an obsession
Yep, yep! Cus it's pretty natural to want a connection with people, and it's honestly fine to feel things for a person you don't know well/at all. It's just a silly human thing.
Whoa… I mean, I heard about the parasocialism thing existing with streamers, but I didn’t really think it was that much of a big deal. After your video, I decided to look it up a bit more… 😶 Whoa! Yeah, looks like it is a thing 😝
@@koziitwo Wow! So this video was sorta for me? Are you really a VTuber or are you just an illusion of what my peasant subconscious thinks VTubers ought to act like??
Parasocial relationships are like a really crowded timeshare in Aspen! Sure you can say you have a mountain chalet, and the fantasy that you do is empowering, but if I start painting the walls pink ,replace all furniture with Pokemon Bean Bags, and interact with it outside my alotted time, I'd still get into trouble. Luckily with you, I can not only say I spent time with a cute Alpaca girl but also that I visited a Laundromat, an Isekaya and a beach front property. So you have time share beat in terms of fantasy! Now about that paint job ......
I think the Issue I have with the "Parasocial Bad" is that it kinda ignores normal people who have a healthy relationship with fantasy. Much like how not everyone will develop a gambling addiction, not every person that is a fan of a vtuber is an obsessive stalker. I am someone that loves boyfriend asmr because I DON'T want a real boyfriend. I love imagining my character (not me.) with the speaker. It is safe and I don't have to worry about any Mess. I give money to people I watch because I want to support what they love, not because I want to by their affection. Not only that but the "Stalker that doesn't know you." Is something that happens outside of vtubing, like all the time. But in Vtubing (in my opinion) it get's weirdly victim blamey. People that accept donations get vilified despite if being a larger issue of disrespect towards the streamer/content creator. Again, all my personal opinion.
@@semi_enigma I agree with pretty much all of that! Honestly, I think it's similar but obviously not quite the same as people watching p*rn videos. That content isn't real, sometimes it can get kinda crazy, and sometimes it's pretty vanilla and fine- but people recognize that it's just a fantasy. Same sorta thing with this stuff, people USUALLY realize they're not *actually* a vtuber's boyfriend. And as long as they don't have that kinda thought, it's safe and fine.
Interestingly-various personality disorders can make you more prone to developing parasocial relationships. If you have a monotropic mindset, which we currently think is the defining feature of autism, then subjects of interest you will take notice of and process more intensely than subjects you don't. It's often thought that autistic people don't have a theory of mind, but that's because the first autistic people ever discovered were noticed because they probably had non-social interests. In reality, many and possibly most autistic people today have social monotropic interests. This is especially true for female autistics, but it is true for many autistics. This means that a lot of autistic people actually have an excess of empathy, resulting in withdrawals caused by rejection dysphoria or even just agoraphobia. Side note; monotropism also influences gender identity, because gender is something you do as much as what you identify as. So if you're intensely interested in and take notice of something we culturally categorize as "girl", you're more likely to identify as "girl". Conversely for "boy". This also creates situations where you might identify with a range of genders. "Boy" and "man" might mean different things to you, so you might feel more comfortable with one or the other! P.S: Before anyone misunderstands; I use 'disorder' as an autistic person, because I treat disability as a broad tent and I don't see it as pathologizing.
I'll start by saying I think i get it. Take us as an example. We aren't friends. At most i would say we are acquaintances who happen to share similar likes on a given subject. I do not expect to get a reply from you either, but i will say it has been nice to see when it happens. But that's about it. Sure, if you were to somehow reach out to me (which i have no expectations on, to be clear) because you wanna open up, i would listen and likely reciprocate with my own issue if having any. Then and only then would i consider you an actual friend There's definitely a lot of parasocialism in the world, just that streaming and vtubing have made it more... Direct compared to music or books and such. Suppose the reason is because you get to interact with them in comparison. When it comes to me, i can only watch vtubers for so long during a stream before i lose interest and do something else. There's only one that keeps me wanting to watch it all, suppose my oshii, but even then i don't like interact in her discord or twitter (elon musk can bite me, naming it X sucks) and i don't expect her to react to the times i write something in her chat. I just go to enjoy the vibes if you will. Suppose i'm saying that i get it. Enjoy the vibes, support if you can, and simply have a good time even if you just lurk. So far, it's been working for me and i've only chatted somewhat during streams. It is nice to be able to interact with likeminded people when you're noticed but that be it for me Pretty much, just trying to be real. Enjoy it and then continue with your life when that moment ends. Don't be a weirdo
I think the important thing to take here is much of the latter half, that "wanting to endulge in a fantasy" is okay. Because nobody says that. What they say is usually a lot of diminutive things to fans of that content, which then get thrown onto vtuber fans in general, by many. On an aside, all this talk of "selling fantasy", "providing what you don't get offline", like... While largely, yes, probably true, language like this can be a slippery slope.
It's important for me to continue the language about it being a fantasy, because I do not sell that fantasy to people. If I talk about it as if it's real, my own fanbase could come to expect that from me. I'm just a chick that likes to talk about my opinions, though. I don't need or want so close of a connection, it makes me uncomfortable personally. BUT, I get what you mean. My videos are entirely unscripted, and I do minimal editing to just jump between segments I record without planning. Some things will still come across a little weird, it is what it is. But, at the same time, when talking about parasocialism, we are inherently implying you *do not know them.* So, it is definitely a fantasy, and nothing else.
@@koziitwo Allow me to apologize, somewhat, as that latter statement didn't mean to imply or suggest anything in regards to how you make your content, or how you maintain your boundaries. It had a purpose, but the more I thought about it, the more anecdotal the intent behind it became, to the point where it's pry not worth getting into. The former part of my original comment is what's really important.
@@TheMalevolentSpoon yeye I definitely agree, and it's why I made this video in the end. There are lots of people who tell you parasocialism is bad, and you're bad if you enjoy it... but there are way less people coming out to say directly that it's okay to enjoy it, as long as it's still safe. It's okay, no need for apologies, I appreciate the comment!
real difference between a VTuber and a IRL creator is that the VTuber can get away with playing a character and people don't think they are actually like that or they can easily switch identities and no one will know as VTuber's are faceless creators at the end of the day
I will say, some facecam people also play characters. ishowspeed is the most popular of them currently, but there are plenty that have existed over time. It's just way less common. ...Which is a bit silly, because.. playing a character makes it much easier to entertain people, honestly.
Parasocialism this Parasocialism that. Bro ain't nothing social about me let me make funny comments to weird anime women on my screen while they do dumb stuff ):
@@koziitwo Yeeeeee. I'm just being a goblin down here. Watching so many streamers play souls games back to back has been an eye opening event cus so many of them play like I do and it just feels like I'm just watching myself game. A different kind of feel but a funny one too
Nah, you compare watching someone who doesn't know you exist to someone you not only interact with but in some cases you even support financially. Those two are nowhere near the same thing, and quite obviously they are taking advantage of lonely viewers that are being sold an act. Parasocialism is wrong because we all know someone of a sound mind would not donate so much to someone who thinks of them only as a viewer. There is a loneliness epidemic amongst men and the least thing they need is to think that them donating, watching, and interacting with someone is just normal and totally not just taking advantage of their loneliness. Imagine watching a vtuber from Day 1, donating every day, commenting in their chat, and joining their discord and you thinking them as a friend but only for them to just call you a viewer. Where is the good in the parasocialism if that is the case. I believe the way you justify it is coming from bias and not necessarily with good intentions
I have a friend who's donated thousands to a Vtuber, who's created art of her, made assets, and who's bought as much merch as possible. But, he very openly knows they aren't friends, and aren't meant to be anything more. He respects her for her work, her drive, and her achievements, not because he expects anything else. And there are a lot of people that are like that, too. But, if you think you know of someone that's forgotten themselves in that, maybe have them watch my video about how vtubers are not their friends, talking about ways to define expectations in a relationship and have some respect for themselves as people.
@@koziitwo honestly when has anyone who portrays themselves as an idol and considers you a viewer ever been your friend. If an individual is aware that they are not friends with someone but supports them that is different from the masses of lonely people that are delusional and are often victim to their delusions that they could ever be friends with someone that only considers them as a viewer. Ultimately parasocialism is bad in all incarnations because you are having a psychological relationship with someone that either doesn’t know you exist or pretends to have your best intentions and to call it a fantasy is to basically say “yeah I don’t have friends irl so I gotta supplement it with a 2D online waifu”
@@Basecannon3088 Parasocialism has existed since the dawn of civilization. We've been parasocial towards popes, kings and queens, celebrities of all eras, towards theater characters, characters in books, in movies and tv shows. Being parasocial only means forming a connection with someone you don't know, and we have plenty of them through our lives. What you're talking about goes beyond a healthy amount of parasocialism, and into what I said directly in the video is dangerous and too far. That is when you need to realistically look at your own relationships and your own mental state, when you start to feel those things are truly important and a major part of your life, beyond an idle feeling. That, is when the other video topic comes into play. This one, though, is just speaking on how idle fantasies are completely normal, because they are and always have been.
Everyone has some kind of vice in this world and if your vice is being an adoring fan for an idol then be my guest but when the overwhelming majority of people that consume idol culture content are lonely then I feel all idols should at the very least state somewhere that it’s an act and that you’ll always just be a viewer. Because if lonely people can’t help themselves, at the very least if the idol makes it clear it’s all an act and is transparent then sure it’s okay because it’s no longer parasocialism
edit: Just a clarification, this video is NOT about individual parasocialism, where a vtuber SPECIFICALLY goes out of their way to dm YOU, or comment to YOU in a parasocial way. This is about group parasocialism, where a vtuber tries to do girlfriend ASMR to a livestreamed collective, or acts like an idol-character on stream. If a vtuber interacts with you personally, that isn't even parasocialism, as parasocial behavior is speaking on when you have NO independent connection to whatever you're talking about. You do not speak to them, you do not connect with them personally.
surprise, women like parasocialism too, i'm gonna go hug my kyomora plushie and look at my umi picture where she says she loves me forever
timestamps ⤵
00:00 - Intro
00:43 - Disclaimer
01:19 - "Parasocial"
03:13 - VTubers WANT to sell you Fantasy
06:00 - Disconnecting Yourself
07:07 - It's Okay to ENJOY The Fantasy
08:39 - Some VTubers don't WANT to create a Fantasy
10:07 - The Point
11:15 - Outro
*Right On! Reality Checking is something this industry Desperately Needs.*
*And your delivery of your topics is concise and considerate (and Funny).*
*Thank you.* ❤️
Depressed Nousagi made good categorisation pf paradoxical relationship. Vtubers can be parasocial to their fans. And viewers may be parasocial to community of vtuber or chat. Twitch doing a lot for this since it expands ways to interact with streamers
I know some vtubers that are definitely parasocial with their fanbase, and they bring them joy, and they really want to interact with them all the time because they genuinely do indulge in that connection, and it's totally fine and normal. Definitely just ends up being something that is best if you know the limits and moderate yourself, but it's fine to enjoy yourself!
Once again Oshi no Ko sums it up pretty good. Idols (Vtubers) sell you pretty lies, and most of the audience accepts that it's a lie but wants it anyways. The problem only arises when a part of the audience starts believing the lie or gets angry once they realize it isn't real.
Simply wanting to be lied to and taking part in the lie isn't a problem in and of itself. It's a large part of the appeal of idols and vtubers. Obviously some vtuber try to remove that aspect of their appeal, but it's rare that it ever goes away completely.
Really good video that made it easy to follow and understand where the line goes and what's ok and what isn't.
This this this!!
I actually met up with an kaigai idol at Offkai expo recently, and I'm a pretty awkward person irl, so I felt like she kinda swapped into idol mode to talk to me. But, I still enjoyed it. She was sparkling, she was a joy to interact with. It's okay to enjoy that stuff!
Why do I feel like this exists outside of vtubing when it comes to accepting lies, like idk... propaganda in politics?
I was tempted to make a video or something about this actually! Because when people talk about parasocialism its always about the negative or extreme style, but I think a lot of people don't realize that parasocialism has been around for literally like hundreds of years LOL, and how misunderstood it can be sometimes!! Great video, keep up the good work! 👍 !!!
yessss, caroline actually mentioned this in her video, it's been around practically since the dawn of civilization itself tbh. It's fine to be parasocial, it's literally just a human thing, it's only bad when it goes TOO far!
@@koziitwo yup!!
The hurt in my heart has never come from people I hate,but rather people I love 💔
I think it's like all things in moderation and understanding it all. Keep up the good work.
This is a great video to talk about this sort of thing. It's always good to remember what's real and what's not in a good way. But also make sure you don't go into a dark place with Parasocialism.
My vtuber is a fantasized version of myself so its fantasy sprinkled with really. As I want to share the fantasy in my mind with everyone.
Thanks so much for all these fantastic videos. You're doing such a great job presenting balanced, sensible points of view on topics that can easily spark anger and misunderstanding - a true voice of reason, which we're needing more and more of in the Vtubing world, to say nothing of the world in general 😅
ALL OF THIS- I think a lot of the issue also lies within how they got onto the internet- I started with fleshtubers or people without any kind of character to represent or sell so there is no "oh your my *insert whatever it is here* as much as there is with vtubers who sell fantasies and characters, but I also know a lot of fleshtubers I watch are uncomfortable with the idea of selling a character or a fantasy, there are no oshi's for people to latch onto and convince themselves they know the character personally. Most are just themselves and people either love em or hate em
MASSIVE non-vtuber streamers ofc do get that kind of weird behaviour, but I find it's more intense with the vtubing community and sometimes it's harder to squash, there are so many vtubers who get hated on for telling their communities lines like "I don't actually know you" and it's unfair. There are so many irl jobs too that people obsess over the people they interact with, I might lose my job if I tell them to stop cause of just BS but I won't get publicly shamed for it either. I rather enjoy hearing ASMR or streamers who sell a fantasy but coming from a fleshtuber watching background, the idea of thinking those people KNOW me is so crazy. I get the call and response in the active moments of the ASMR or fantasy selling moments, livestreamed or not, as that's obviously part of the idea.
I often end up talking to my friends about vtubers who get shat on for saying no but then saying "well they started it by doing it in the first place" but that mindset is SO toxic! People who do adult work are gunna get creepy stuff but that doesn't mean it's fair for people to say "well you did this job so you don't get to complain", it's the same vibe in a different setting and it's WILD to me that people think it's okay to say that!
Another fantastic video! Also now I really need to push Oshi no ko closer to the top of my To Watch list.
It's suuuper good, it really dips into the back end of the entire entertainment industry for Japan, including idols, acting, manga, anime, etc.
Enjoy the videos and how they have been quite informative and concise. Keep being yourself (everyone!). It's a nice change, as some mentioned too,to not always look at para-socialism as a bad thing. With the last (or first?) comment I saw you also mentioned how playing a character is much easier to entertain people. It is ! In a way, I feel some streamers/creators (face cam or non) can be or act as a character. I know , I am usually not how I am online on the stream, as I am in real life. I am a lot more outgoing/talkative on stream, in person I'm quite shy and to myself. That's my "Character" even though it's still me. Not sure if this makes sense anymore, just rambling on now haha! Again, great videos!
It's a hard one, especially for me. Was well aware of pair a social/ simp culture 2ay befor i started watching vtubers and vibing in their communities, and it's one of the reasons that in almost 5 years i haven't made a single friend in the space.
The brain worms get bad for one streamer i watch because they've had a vary hard time the past 2 years and i know she genuinely likes having me around because of two micro bipolar episodes. And yet my PTSD still tels me that everyone in my life is happier if im not apart of their life, and i deal with insomnia because of it.
I'd be nice if life had clear answers but lets be real 90% of the human existence is in gray. We can only do ower best for the sake of everyone we love.
1:43 Ngl I'm a mixed bag... like piemation mentioned of himself becoming an amalgamation of all his different media-medium-OC's...
4:02 Yeah I'm familiar. It's like the
4:25 4:38 I feel trapped in fantasies sometimes... in a weird way, like "because I don't exist in the work of media, I don't exist and am actually "one with the character"... and it makes me feel weird... so I just prefer media where characters look kinda like how I'd want to look? It's weird...
6:15 6:22 Very... 6:40 Fan kills her! O o f
7:11 I get paralyzed to the point where I just say fuck it and judge people for everything... and then shut down for months after... in part... yeah my ability to set barriers and still cognitively function fully with those barriers in place... is debatable. I know I need to loosen the chains, but I don't know which ones fully, because my brain is stuck in fight or flight, sorta... for particular things and topics... I don't know why... or if I'm just rambling random stuff that may or may not actually be true of myself, in hopes of getting something out of it.
8:24 Oh yep... I get like that sometimes, but not with relationships 8:33 Oh nope.
11:35 Me being an anime girl on the internet was weird in VR Chat... but I'd love to do something like that again, it's just... I'm a massive perfectionist who needs things to be certain ways... or "thinks" they need things certain ways, but it can't all just be in my head!?
A lot of the points here are exactly how I feel about parasocialism. There's a boundary that needs to be respected between fans and Vtubers. I see it as not that much different from fans and celebs.
I also hate the comments from viewers to streamers who're grown women being told they "shouldn't be swearing" or things like that so they'd be "more attractive". Bruh Twitch isn't a dating app go outside!
haha, truee, or people who show up telling me all about what their ideal hair length is or about how they prefer curvy women or something
like, bruh, i don't care, literally does not matter to me, go somewhere else 😂
Well now even water can be poisonous if you drink to much of it
This happens way to often to a lot people and vtubers to which is really messed up on so many levels and this is why I tend to not befriend any vtubers or just in general I watch there content and respect what they do beyond that. We all have limits and boundaries for a reason.
This is actually about how parasocialism is okay 😂
It is true but at the same time I always have to remind myself that there is a person behind the screen to.
@@kevininspire yeh! which is totally a good thing tbh, it's good to sometimes just remember 'hey, they don't really mean it' 🙏
@@koziitwo 💯 also great video breaking down certain section of each part keep up the great work.
Streaming is such a conundrum for ideas about parasocial relationships. Cause like... the actual meaning of 'Parasocial Relationship' is a necessarily one sided (i.e., no actual interaction between the person and the figure they perceive a relationship with) mediated relationship which someone responds to emotionally as if it were a real relationship.
The fact that streamers regularly interact with their chats, both during streams and on discord servers and other social media sites like Twitter and all those, means those interactions don't actually meet the definition of a parasocial relationship and never have.
They're just, you know, very shallow (possibly transactional) two-way relationships. Like (please forgive the metaphor but this is what springs to mind) the relationship between a regular at the strip club and their favorite dancer or whathaveyou: is she the regular's friend? Probably not, but they do sit down and talk from to time and see each other relatively often. It's not an _authentic_ relationship but it *is* a real, shallow, transactional relationship.
And the presence of a screen between a person and a live entertainer doesn't really change that once those two people start to interact regularly.
I kind of hate parasocialism. I hate celebrity worship, I hate stan culture, and back in the day I would probably be the guy getting his head cut off for saying that everyone is a fucking idiot for worshiping and idolizing the pope or the king or whatever haha
And the kinds of people that specifically try to create a fantasy of having a connection with someone for money just seems exploitative and manipulative. It’s fucking disgusting.
I just watch the stupid funny anime women in RUclips clips in order to laugh, I really am starting to think my way of engaging with vtuber content is the best possible way to do it.
Your videos are an exception to what most vtubers are trying to do because your videos are about the ideas you’re presenting, you’re not trying to manipulate people into thinking you’re their friend or you like them. The visuals of your video could be a black screen and you could use a voice changer to sound like a guy and I think most people would keep watching your stuff, at least I would.
@@plasmabat718 I agree to an extent, I personally just don't engage with content like that. If I want a connection, I want a REAL connection, not a fake fantasy somebody is trying to sell me. But, I don't think it's all that harmful, I guess, as long as it doesn't go too far. If it stays in reasonable levels, I can see why people would want to engage in that kind of content, even if it's not my thing. I won't judge someone for enjoying it, really.. I just won't do it myself 😂
@@koziitwo I won’t shame the person for engaging with it like I won’t shame someone for abusing alcohol or other substances but if there’s any chance that they’ll listen to me I’ll tell them that they’re hurting themselves by using these things.
Thank you for the nuanced take!
I've been getting nervous hearing the discourse of people wanting to "change vtubing" to remove the kayfabe and fantasy. If you don't want that, that's fine, but I don't like the idea of "we have to change vtubing and make it "better" because *I* don't like parasocialism"
Personally, I vtube because I love the fantasy. I want to create a vtubing experience where it's like talking to an anime adventurer and provide a bit of "escape from reality" c:
Those people's intentions aren't necessarily bad, but they *are* misguided.
I can't really relate with wanting to create a fantasy or being part of a fantasy when it comes to the more extreme ones like relationship ones primarily but I don't have it in me to judge those who are interested in that kind of thing. More than that I more-so can't relate with people wanting to shun those who do; I can't respect anybody who actively harasses those they do not understand, bigotry doesn't justify bullying and our history as a species has taught that lesson many times.
I don't think any being is immune to being parasocial or feeding into that fantasy, being parasocial is something strictly human and that's what makes it beautiful in a way. Just like all things; you must seek balance within your emotions and your logic to really live the happiest life you can lead. Just let people live and do what makes them happy, you're more likely to suffer if you cause suffering for others and it takes unnecessary effort to spread negativity anyways.
They've done studies on parasocial relationships and discovered that it doesn't actually affect the person's ability to function and such unless it becomes an obsession
Yep, yep! Cus it's pretty natural to want a connection with people, and it's honestly fine to feel things for a person you don't know well/at all. It's just a silly human thing.
Whoa…
I mean, I heard about the parasocialism thing existing with streamers, but I didn’t really think it was that much of a big deal.
After your video, I decided to look it up a bit more…
😶
Whoa! Yeah, looks like it is a thing 😝
Hey, it's that thing we talked about just yesterday!
Yeah! I kept thinking about it, so I just made the video 😂
@@koziitwo Wow! So this video was sorta for me? Are you really a VTuber or are you just an illusion of what my peasant subconscious thinks VTubers ought to act like??
Another good video from the alpaca
The sportsball term you were looking for is “athlete”. :)
thanks sportsball fan
Parasocial relationships are like a really crowded timeshare in Aspen! Sure you can say you have a mountain chalet, and the fantasy that you do is empowering, but if I start painting the walls pink ,replace all furniture with Pokemon Bean Bags, and interact with it outside my alotted time, I'd still get into trouble.
Luckily with you, I can not only say I spent time with a cute Alpaca girl but also that I visited a Laundromat, an Isekaya and a beach front property. So you have time share beat in terms of fantasy! Now about that paint job ......
I wonder if experience experience (EE) exists if there's GFE and BFE
I think the Issue I have with the "Parasocial Bad" is that it kinda ignores normal people who have a healthy relationship with fantasy. Much like how not everyone will develop a gambling addiction, not every person that is a fan of a vtuber is an obsessive stalker. I am someone that loves boyfriend asmr because I DON'T want a real boyfriend. I love imagining my character (not me.) with the speaker. It is safe and I don't have to worry about any Mess. I give money to people I watch because I want to support what they love, not because I want to by their affection.
Not only that but the "Stalker that doesn't know you." Is something that happens outside of vtubing, like all the time. But in Vtubing (in my opinion) it get's weirdly victim blamey. People that accept donations get vilified despite if being a larger issue of disrespect towards the streamer/content creator. Again, all my personal opinion.
@@semi_enigma I agree with pretty much all of that! Honestly, I think it's similar but obviously not quite the same as people watching p*rn videos. That content isn't real, sometimes it can get kinda crazy, and sometimes it's pretty vanilla and fine- but people recognize that it's just a fantasy. Same sorta thing with this stuff, people USUALLY realize they're not *actually* a vtuber's boyfriend. And as long as they don't have that kinda thought, it's safe and fine.
@@koziitwo Exactly! I agree. 💜
Interestingly-various personality disorders can make you more prone to developing parasocial relationships.
If you have a monotropic mindset, which we currently think is the defining feature of autism, then subjects of interest you will take notice of and process more intensely than subjects you don't.
It's often thought that autistic people don't have a theory of mind, but that's because the first autistic people ever discovered were noticed because they probably had non-social interests. In reality, many and possibly most autistic people today have social monotropic interests. This is especially true for female autistics, but it is true for many autistics. This means that a lot of autistic people actually have an excess of empathy, resulting in withdrawals caused by rejection dysphoria or even just agoraphobia.
Side note; monotropism also influences gender identity, because gender is something you do as much as what you identify as. So if you're intensely interested in and take notice of something we culturally categorize as "girl", you're more likely to identify as "girl". Conversely for "boy".
This also creates situations where you might identify with a range of genders. "Boy" and "man" might mean different things to you, so you might feel more comfortable with one or the other!
P.S: Before anyone misunderstands; I use 'disorder' as an autistic person, because I treat disability as a broad tent and I don't see it as pathologizing.
I'll start by saying I think i get it. Take us as an example. We aren't friends. At most i would say we are acquaintances who happen to share similar likes on a given subject. I do not expect to get a reply from you either, but i will say it has been nice to see when it happens. But that's about it. Sure, if you were to somehow reach out to me (which i have no expectations on, to be clear) because you wanna open up, i would listen and likely reciprocate with my own issue if having any. Then and only then would i consider you an actual friend
There's definitely a lot of parasocialism in the world, just that streaming and vtubing have made it more... Direct compared to music or books and such. Suppose the reason is because you get to interact with them in comparison.
When it comes to me, i can only watch vtubers for so long during a stream before i lose interest and do something else. There's only one that keeps me wanting to watch it all, suppose my oshii, but even then i don't like interact in her discord or twitter (elon musk can bite me, naming it X sucks) and i don't expect her to react to the times i write something in her chat. I just go to enjoy the vibes if you will.
Suppose i'm saying that i get it. Enjoy the vibes, support if you can, and simply have a good time even if you just lurk. So far, it's been working for me and i've only chatted somewhat during streams. It is nice to be able to interact with likeminded people when you're noticed but that be it for me
Pretty much, just trying to be real. Enjoy it and then continue with your life when that moment ends. Don't be a weirdo
I think the important thing to take here is much of the latter half, that "wanting to endulge in a fantasy" is okay. Because nobody says that. What they say is usually a lot of diminutive things to fans of that content, which then get thrown onto vtuber fans in general, by many.
On an aside, all this talk of "selling fantasy", "providing what you don't get offline", like... While largely, yes, probably true, language like this can be a slippery slope.
It's important for me to continue the language about it being a fantasy, because I do not sell that fantasy to people. If I talk about it as if it's real, my own fanbase could come to expect that from me. I'm just a chick that likes to talk about my opinions, though. I don't need or want so close of a connection, it makes me uncomfortable personally.
BUT, I get what you mean. My videos are entirely unscripted, and I do minimal editing to just jump between segments I record without planning. Some things will still come across a little weird, it is what it is. But, at the same time, when talking about parasocialism, we are inherently implying you *do not know them.* So, it is definitely a fantasy, and nothing else.
@@koziitwo Allow me to apologize, somewhat, as that latter statement didn't mean to imply or suggest anything in regards to how you make your content, or how you maintain your boundaries.
It had a purpose, but the more I thought about it, the more anecdotal the intent behind it became, to the point where it's pry not worth getting into.
The former part of my original comment is what's really important.
@@TheMalevolentSpoon yeye I definitely agree, and it's why I made this video in the end. There are lots of people who tell you parasocialism is bad, and you're bad if you enjoy it... but there are way less people coming out to say directly that it's okay to enjoy it, as long as it's still safe.
It's okay, no need for apologies, I appreciate the comment!
But.. but... you replied to my comment, aren't we friends now?
*Looking dramatically at my screen with a single tear* 😥
I always tell my chat that we are bros XD I say I'm not your oshi I'm your Hammie.
That's so cute tbh 😭
real difference between a VTuber and a IRL creator is that the VTuber can get away with playing a character and people don't think they are actually like that or they can easily switch identities and no one will know as VTuber's are faceless creators at the end of the day
I will say, some facecam people also play characters. ishowspeed is the most popular of them currently, but there are plenty that have existed over time. It's just way less common. ...Which is a bit silly, because.. playing a character makes it much easier to entertain people, honestly.
Parasocialism this Parasocialism that. Bro ain't nothing social about me let me make funny comments to weird anime women on my screen while they do dumb stuff ):
@@generalx6457 i mean like i said, i think parasocialism is just human, everyone wants to form connections with people. even if it is just silly fun.
@@koziitwo Yeeeeee. I'm just being a goblin down here. Watching so many streamers play souls games back to back has been an eye opening event cus so many of them play like I do and it just feels like I'm just watching myself game. A different kind of feel but a funny one too
Nah, you compare watching someone who doesn't know you exist to someone you not only interact with but in some cases you even support financially. Those two are nowhere near the same thing, and quite obviously they are taking advantage of lonely viewers that are being sold an act. Parasocialism is wrong because we all know someone of a sound mind would not donate so much to someone who thinks of them only as a viewer. There is a loneliness epidemic amongst men and the least thing they need is to think that them donating, watching, and interacting with someone is just normal and totally not just taking advantage of their loneliness. Imagine watching a vtuber from Day 1, donating every day, commenting in their chat, and joining their discord and you thinking them as a friend but only for them to just call you a viewer. Where is the good in the parasocialism if that is the case. I believe the way you justify it is coming from bias and not necessarily with good intentions
I have a friend who's donated thousands to a Vtuber, who's created art of her, made assets, and who's bought as much merch as possible. But, he very openly knows they aren't friends, and aren't meant to be anything more. He respects her for her work, her drive, and her achievements, not because he expects anything else. And there are a lot of people that are like that, too.
But, if you think you know of someone that's forgotten themselves in that, maybe have them watch my video about how vtubers are not their friends, talking about ways to define expectations in a relationship and have some respect for themselves as people.
@@koziitwo honestly when has anyone who portrays themselves as an idol and considers you a viewer ever been your friend. If an individual is aware that they are not friends with someone but supports them that is different from the masses of lonely people that are delusional and are often victim to their delusions that they could ever be friends with someone that only considers them as a viewer. Ultimately parasocialism is bad in all incarnations because you are having a psychological relationship with someone that either doesn’t know you exist or pretends to have your best intentions and to call it a fantasy is to basically say “yeah I don’t have friends irl so I gotta supplement it with a 2D online waifu”
@@Basecannon3088 Parasocialism has existed since the dawn of civilization. We've been parasocial towards popes, kings and queens, celebrities of all eras, towards theater characters, characters in books, in movies and tv shows. Being parasocial only means forming a connection with someone you don't know, and we have plenty of them through our lives. What you're talking about goes beyond a healthy amount of parasocialism, and into what I said directly in the video is dangerous and too far. That is when you need to realistically look at your own relationships and your own mental state, when you start to feel those things are truly important and a major part of your life, beyond an idle feeling. That, is when the other video topic comes into play. This one, though, is just speaking on how idle fantasies are completely normal, because they are and always have been.
The term parasocial was first coined in 1956 by D. Horton and R.R. Wohl.
Everyone has some kind of vice in this world and if your vice is being an adoring fan for an idol then be my guest but when the overwhelming majority of people that consume idol culture content are lonely then I feel all idols should at the very least state somewhere that it’s an act and that you’ll always just be a viewer. Because if lonely people can’t help themselves, at the very least if the idol makes it clear it’s all an act and is transparent then sure it’s okay because it’s no longer parasocialism
h
yadda yadda that's cool and all but will you please marry me