Hi Michael, I am the founder of OLLO Audio. I've seen your videos before, nice that there's someone dedicated to spatial audio, really great! I hope you'll allow me to elaborate a bit here,... The bass is shy with the S5X (and is lifted short of 2dB with the 1.3 calibration, the USC plugin you can get for your unit too) as that's what the empiric research showed to be welcomed in spatial audio mixing when using binaural renderers. There's a full video on RUclips on how we captured Dolby certified studio with the exact same ear simulator that was then used in tuning the headphones. Using just room measurements, the bass would need to be stronger, probably closer to what NDH30 has but with user testing (blind tests) engineers were able to position (or identify the virtual position and movement) sound with a lot higher accuracy and consistency when the prototype units had less bass and strong high end presence. As you're already educated, the HRTFs rely on different cues and a slight boost in high frequencies is welcomed for mixing on headphones but is NOT welcomed when calibrating speakers in a room. Virtualisation with headphones will forever be virtualisation, getting closer to reality, but spatialisation will "probably" never become localisation. Thanks for the review and kind words. Stay safe and sound. RG
Hi there! Thanks for your comment! I actually use your headphones daily, but not for the purpose they were intended. I use them with my digital piano. Thanks for your clarification with respect to the empirical basis of your design!
I am planning to but a pair of S5Xs following recommendation from a colleague, but perhaps I don’t need a pair for monitoring? @Michael - reading you last comment, do we need ‘spatial’ headphones to listen to immersive audio? I read your comment as ‘it’s about the rendering’ and NOT the listening device?
Thanks for your review! I was interested in the Ollo S5X, but then opted for the Austrian Audio Hx60, I have yet to hear them, but I will see. Have you had experience with Austrian Audio?
@@michaelgwagner I plan to keep them, I like to hear orchestra, and they have by far the widest soundstage I have heard yet (I am not a pro). The tone sounds very mature, less bassy but very punchy in the mids and vocals. - My 50 cents on my impression of them - in case you wondered what happened, :) Let me know if you ever try them.
Ja, ich habe das sofort an dir erkannt (Akzent) - Ich bin aus Wien, aber lebe in der Steiermark. :) - Bin auch dafür das man Austrian Audio eine Chance gibt - wir zahlen ja einen Premiumpreis für die ganzen US Produkte - und bei Austrian Audio ist das endlich einmal umgekehrt.@@michaelgwagner
Год назад+1
I've heard people say that headphones with 'good soundstage' basically sound like monitors in front of you (90degrees, crosstalk, etc) when listening to stereo music. Following that logic, wouldn't headphones with bad soundstage (sounds super dry and close to the ear and with no crosstalk at all and 180degrees) be better for 3D audio production? The depth can be faked using the hrtf and ITD. Wouldn't a headphone with 'good soundstage' have trouble recreating super close to your ear and dry sounds as well as negatively impact the stereo perception by distorting the soundstage? I'd highly suggest taking a look at 'Soundstage and Imaging of Headphones by RTINGS here on youtube. I would be really intrigued to know your opinion on that video and on the matter of Good/bad soundstage for 3D audio production. Cheers and thanks you for making these as always!
People tell me that the Sennheiser HD 800 are the best for accurate 3d reproduction and they are known for their soundstaging capabilities. I’m not an audiophile and you need to take my use of the word soundstage with a grain of salt. My interpretation of that term is that a wider soundstage opens up the listening experience. It is the crossfeed simulation that positions the audio sources in front of you. You could think of this as a simplified form of binaural rendering.
I have to tell you that i have been using the S5X for 6 months for spacial audio and in my humble view i have not heard a better headphone. I would also like to say that as a company Ollo are great company to deal with and very knowledgable :) Headphones are very subjective lol But the thing that makes the Ollo better in my opion for spacial audio is the position of the speaker inside the headphones :) Its positioned very different to any other headphone.. I have HEDD headphones 4X price of the S5X and i think the S5x is better.
@@michaelgwagner Have you taken the ear cushion of on the Ollo S5X for a look at how they have positioned the driver ? Very good design how the ear bud comes on and off also :)
It came with the pads off. I actually had to assemble it first. Nothing I found out of the ordinary though. Once you get into that price range a certain quality is expected. ;)
@@michaelgwagner I have not seen any other headphones with the driver angled towards the ear most are just sat in the cup facing the ear :) Strange they did not come with the pads on :( I did notice that your S5X are slightly different to my ones thou having the name on top band and a couple of other things. :)
@QFXmusic I just checked with the headphones I use regularly and the drivers on the Neumann as well as the Focal seem to be angled as well. At least they have off center positions.
I’m a big fan of the Neumann NDH 30 as you might have noticed. ;) There are better ones at the higher end but at that point you get diminishing returns.
Should look more at Sony's MV1 which is actually designed for spatial Mixing. They also offer personalized HRTF measuring service for it at certain stores and studios which they provide you with an EQ file you can use when mixing. Sony did testing for for this for a long time and technically started developing it during the time of the MDR-Z1R as well. Their FR looks weird but its designed to be much easier to EQ out using their HRTF Filters.. I dont think it FR in regards to immersion is necessarily 100% gimmick. I think there needs to be more published studies on it but Dolby themselves have a patent on something called the Elevation curve (realistically Elevation EQ) where they bump up response at 7khz +5 db and pull down 12khz -7db which allegedly the greater the difference in these 2 regions gives an improved sense of height imaging. Seemingly based on the FR that we see on Sony MDR-MV1 this does seem to be kinda similar case where both regions look similar by default because EQ'ing these extremes would be near impossible in those frequencies. You can give it a shot and see how it sounds in EQ on your end as well.
I am not doubting that there are psychoacoustic phenomena that you could exploit to give a more immersive impression. I am questioning if this is useful in a production environment where you need the audio to be as accurate as possible.
@michaelgwagner I agree it is strange to actually use it in mix environment since its not accurate to conventional response. Typically youd want a flat response and EQing the sound of the headphone would make the response non-flat. I might be wrong but it seems Sony's approach may be something closer to finding the EQ of your hearing to generate your personal sense of "flat". Their mic measures at the ear drum level and by doing so applies the EQ to the headphone to give you the perception of a flat sounding spatial mix room within 360VME You can check out Recording Academy's interview w/ Sony's Spatial Mix engineers on 360VME. I may be misunderstanding their implementation of it, but I think that may be what is going on w/ their implementation. ruclips.net/video/ShIKOg1M52w/видео.html
Good headphone info! I'd be interested in seeing how to implement binaural rendering with head tracking in Reaper. If others might also be interested , perhaps a conversion from the Atmos source to ambisonics, then to binaural output.
There is a good chance that I will make such a video in the near future. I’m currently looking at how to work with 3d audio in Linux and that setup would be the obvious choice.
@@michaelgwagner I'm evaluating the merits of mixing in Reaper, in ambisonics, with binaural output. I haven't, as yet, used head tracking with this setup. Thanks!
I find the Oslo also to have a lack of punchy bass response. I really wanted to like these due to the build quality and specs, but I'm thinking about returning them. I'm going to listen more to tracks I know well in Atmos first, but as of today, I'm just not ready to commit to keeping them. They are beautifully built and the most comfortable headphones I've worn.
Yes, the bass is not as punchy as I would like. Makes it difficult to judge the low end imho. I've decided to keep them though. In the end they are a good value.
Hi Michael, I am the founder of OLLO Audio. I've seen your videos before, nice that there's someone dedicated to spatial audio, really great! I hope you'll allow me to elaborate a bit here,... The bass is shy with the S5X (and is lifted short of 2dB with the 1.3 calibration, the USC plugin you can get for your unit too) as that's what the empiric research showed to be welcomed in spatial audio mixing when using binaural renderers. There's a full video on RUclips on how we captured Dolby certified studio with the exact same ear simulator that was then used in tuning the headphones. Using just room measurements, the bass would need to be stronger, probably closer to what NDH30 has but with user testing (blind tests) engineers were able to position (or identify the virtual position and movement) sound with a lot higher accuracy and consistency when the prototype units had less bass and strong high end presence. As you're already educated, the HRTFs rely on different cues and a slight boost in high frequencies is welcomed for mixing on headphones but is NOT welcomed when calibrating speakers in a room. Virtualisation with headphones will forever be virtualisation, getting closer to reality, but spatialisation will "probably" never become localisation. Thanks for the review and kind words. Stay safe and sound. RG
Hi there! Thanks for your comment! I actually use your headphones daily, but not for the purpose they were intended. I use them with my digital piano. Thanks for your clarification with respect to the empirical basis of your design!
Do the S5X support Atmos playback on Apple Music or something similar or are they just for mixing different channels?
@bulletv1 These are just headphones. There is nothing specifically that they do or don’t support.
I am planning to but a pair of S5Xs following recommendation from a colleague, but perhaps I don’t need a pair for monitoring?
@Michael - reading you last comment, do we need ‘spatial’ headphones to listen to immersive audio? I read your comment as ‘it’s about the rendering’ and NOT the listening device?
Thanks for your review! I was interested in the Ollo S5X, but then opted for the Austrian Audio Hx60, I have yet to hear them, but I will see. Have you had experience with Austrian Audio?
Not yet, no. But I hear only good things about them.
@@michaelgwagner I plan to keep them, I like to hear orchestra, and they have by far the widest soundstage I have heard yet (I am not a pro). The tone sounds very mature, less bassy but very punchy in the mids and vocals. - My 50 cents on my impression of them - in case you wondered what happened, :) Let me know if you ever try them.
Good to know. As an Austrian I should probably have a closer look at Austrian Audio stuff. 😀
Ja, ich habe das sofort an dir erkannt (Akzent) - Ich bin aus Wien, aber lebe in der Steiermark. :) - Bin auch dafür das man Austrian Audio eine Chance gibt - wir zahlen ja einen Premiumpreis für die ganzen US Produkte - und bei Austrian Audio ist das endlich einmal umgekehrt.@@michaelgwagner
I've heard people say that headphones with 'good soundstage' basically sound like monitors in front of you (90degrees, crosstalk, etc) when listening to stereo music. Following that logic, wouldn't headphones with bad soundstage (sounds super dry and close to the ear and with no crosstalk at all and 180degrees) be better for 3D audio production? The depth can be faked using the hrtf and ITD. Wouldn't a headphone with 'good soundstage' have trouble recreating super close to your ear and dry sounds as well as negatively impact the stereo perception by distorting the soundstage? I'd highly suggest taking a look at 'Soundstage and Imaging of Headphones by RTINGS here on youtube. I would be really intrigued to know your opinion on that video and on the matter of Good/bad soundstage for 3D audio production.
Cheers and thanks you for making these as always!
People tell me that the Sennheiser HD 800 are the best for accurate 3d reproduction and they are known for their soundstaging capabilities. I’m not an audiophile and you need to take my use of the word soundstage with a grain of salt. My interpretation of that term is that a wider soundstage opens up the listening experience. It is the crossfeed simulation that positions the audio sources in front of you. You could think of this as a simplified form of binaural rendering.
I have to tell you that i have been using the S5X for 6 months for spacial audio and in my humble view i have not heard a better headphone. I would also like to say that as a company Ollo are great company to deal with and very knowledgable :) Headphones are very subjective lol But the thing that makes the Ollo better in my opion for spacial audio is the position of the speaker inside the headphones :) Its positioned very different to any other headphone.. I have HEDD headphones 4X price of the S5X and i think the S5x is better.
As I said. It’s a good headphone. ;) And a lot of this is subjective.
@@michaelgwagner Have you taken the ear cushion of on the Ollo S5X for a look at how they have positioned the driver ? Very good design how the ear bud comes on and off also :)
It came with the pads off. I actually had to assemble it first. Nothing I found out of the ordinary though. Once you get into that price range a certain quality is expected. ;)
@@michaelgwagner I have not seen any other headphones with the driver angled towards the ear most are just sat in the cup facing the ear :) Strange they did not come with the pads on :( I did notice that your S5X are slightly different to my ones thou having the name on top band and a couple of other things. :)
@QFXmusic I just checked with the headphones I use regularly and the drivers on the Neumann as well as the Focal seem to be angled as well. At least they have off center positions.
What headphones would you recommend for mixing and mastering Audeze, Sennheiser, Ollo
I’m a big fan of the Neumann NDH 30 as you might have noticed. ;) There are better ones at the higher end but at that point you get diminishing returns.
Should look more at Sony's MV1 which is actually designed for spatial Mixing. They also offer personalized HRTF measuring service for it at certain stores and studios which they provide you with an EQ file you can use when mixing. Sony did testing for for this for a long time and technically started developing it during the time of the MDR-Z1R as well. Their FR looks weird but its designed to be much easier to EQ out using their HRTF Filters..
I dont think it FR in regards to immersion is necessarily 100% gimmick. I think there needs to be more published studies on it but Dolby themselves have a patent on something called the Elevation curve (realistically Elevation EQ) where they bump up response at 7khz +5 db and pull down 12khz -7db which allegedly the greater the difference in these 2 regions gives an improved sense of height imaging. Seemingly based on the FR that we see on Sony MDR-MV1 this does seem to be kinda similar case where both regions look similar by default because EQ'ing these extremes would be near impossible in those frequencies. You can give it a shot and see how it sounds in EQ on your end as well.
I am not doubting that there are psychoacoustic phenomena that you could exploit to give a more immersive impression. I am questioning if this is useful in a production environment where you need the audio to be as accurate as possible.
@michaelgwagner
I agree it is strange to actually use it in mix environment since its not accurate to conventional response. Typically youd want a flat response and EQing the sound of the headphone would make the response non-flat.
I might be wrong but it seems Sony's approach may be something closer to finding the EQ of your hearing to generate your personal sense of "flat". Their mic measures at the ear drum level and by doing so applies the EQ to the headphone to give you the perception of a flat sounding spatial mix room within 360VME
You can check out Recording Academy's interview w/ Sony's Spatial Mix engineers on 360VME. I may be misunderstanding their implementation of it, but I think that may be what is going on w/ their implementation.
ruclips.net/video/ShIKOg1M52w/видео.html
Good headphone info! I'd be interested in seeing how to implement binaural rendering with head tracking in Reaper. If others might also be interested , perhaps a conversion from the Atmos source to ambisonics, then to binaural output.
There is a good chance that I will make such a video in the near future. I’m currently looking at how to work with 3d audio in Linux and that setup would be the obvious choice.
@@michaelgwagner I'm evaluating the merits of mixing in Reaper, in ambisonics, with binaural output. I haven't, as yet, used head tracking with this setup. Thanks!
Yes, I am also interested in this workflow. I use the Neumann NDH-20, the closed-back version of the NDH-30 and really like them.
I am considering of getting them in addition to the NDH 30. For situations in which I need closed back headphones. They are supposed to be excellent!
@@michaelgwagner My experience with the NDH-20 actually mirrors yours with the 30, in that I can hear things I have not heard before.
I find the Oslo also to have a lack of punchy bass response. I really wanted to like these due to the build quality and specs, but I'm thinking about returning them. I'm going to listen more to tracks I know well in Atmos first, but as of today, I'm just not ready to commit to keeping them. They are beautifully built and the most comfortable headphones I've worn.
Yes, the bass is not as punchy as I would like. Makes it difficult to judge the low end imho. I've decided to keep them though. In the end they are a good value.
@michaelgwagner hi , how do they compare with the neumann ndh30 for simple stereo mixing and mastering?
@ChrisKeyman I prefer the Neumann, but they are both good and it really comes down to personal preference.
@@michaelgwagner which one has better sub bass extension and quantity?
@@michaelgwagner can you make critical decisions in the hi frequencies on neumanns?
So these should be good for gaming
If you are ok with gaming with open back headphones then probably yes.
The Ollo should be more linear than the Neumann.
Possibly
Pro gamer headphone??
Wouldn’t use an open back for pro gaming.