"Just let them drop you" CLASSIC! I've been doing this for years, and although it causes some head scratching from other riders to begin with, you are right, they do catch on.
This works for me, and then I catch up once I’m doing my high intensity effort up the climb. Balances itself out, and you get a bit of a flex overtaking everyone on the climb.😁
Group rides are all about compromise. This is why I generally prefer solo rides as a mainstay and add in a few group rides for social interactions. The group rides with 5 minute stops every 30 minutes are really just hanging out with your buddies. Finding the right group that is at your fitness level is the challenge.
Yup. Some group rides here I basically end up coasting along. A big % of these riders want someone to tow them for the whole ride, they will never take a pull no matter the day. There is low intensity, and there is complete boredom, 2 different things. Im out for fun, and get a good thrash in. A good climb means everybody goes their pace and re-group at the top.
Just want to let you know that even after this weekend RUclips autocomplete search for Dylan still has 'Dylan Johnson' ahead of 'Dylan Van Baarle'. Way to go.
I love your overly technical channel which adds an entirely vacuous amount of aaahhhh technical stuff in my 1+2 brains! it is so aaahhh usefull to my daily club rides! Details: I forget all in a split second after the video is over! Toooooooo much mathematics!
Poor zone 2 discipline in group rides creates more "junk miles" than most people realize. According to Dr Inigo San Millan, going above zone 2 shuts down targeted fitness adaptations until lactate is cleared, which can take 5 to 20 minutes. So, group rides not only result in junk miles, they put you in a penalty box for several minutes AFTER each hard effort and can easily negate 30-40 minutes of the workout. It's better to save the harder efforts for the end of the ride after you've completed all your planned zone 2 work.
I disagree with this and its relative. 1. It depends what shape you are in. 2. It depends on how you are using that group ride to train. The problem with group rides is we get into our own heads.
@@mattk8810 it also assumes that everyone is training ideally on their solo rides. My solo rides are less structured and more likely to be zones 3-4 mixed, but maybe I'm the odd one out
My strongest years had mostly group ride miles. I stay in the back or middle until the sprints. Most of the time I could stay out front at high zone 2. I actually find I ride too hard on solo rides, thus a group ride with the right people acts as a pacing partner.
I dunno, I have ridden almost all group rides the last 3 or 4 years, and have never gone so well on the bike. If its junk miles it sure doesnt show. Being ultra strict on group rides, usually means riders quit showing up. Its supposed to be fun.
You're right. Going above Z2 in the middle of a long ride causes additional problems as well like much higher levels of fatigue or soreness after the ride or even bonking the legs. All of which requires longer recovery period. However, if I put ALL my above-Z2 efforts at the end of the ride, I get none of these issues even if the duration of the above-Z2 efforts is the same as the problematic version doing it in the middle of a long ride.
I dunno. The chatting in the pack thing, a local rider who raced for many years, always maintains its not the time for talking. Its a ride, its time for concentrating and riding. I know for sure some cant talk and ride a bike at the same time.
Great video, and the same conclusion I came to a number of years ago. I now do zone 2 rides on the indoor trainer or solo. For weekend group riding, I ride up to meet the group (zone 2 for 90min), ride at whatever pace they want, get in one or two proper high intensity efforts up the climbs for the day (8-10min long), then solo ride back after. Saves me from being ‘that guy’ in the group who’s too obsessed with training to enjoy the social ride.
I have 2 friends that are also serious about training. We call each other up and if we have workouts that are the same zone then we ride together. If we don't, then we go our seperate ways once the intervals start.
That is true. Ive ridden in a fast moving pack, and then there's a corner, which is my favorite part...........but others haven't learned how to turn a bike, and stay in line, and not go off the road or nearly so....they might be strong but haven't learned how to ride a bike. Others will never learn how to draft, and hold a steady pace. Some simply cant do this, and once the pace picks up its a for real problem. It can be the cause for crashes, or people going off the back of the pack. At the least it makes everyone behind the slinky person be perpetually jumping and sprinting to keep catching up. I tend to look for an opening and jump in in front of the person who cant hold a pace in a pack, it may be rude but it has to be done. Obviously I'm competitive.
Since January, I have started letting my friends know when I am sticking to my endurance pace. I let them know that I don’t expect them to wait for me and it’s all good. Sometimes it takes some discipline to hold my endurance pace as my friends and teammates pull away. But I remind myself of my goals and that “the ego is the enemy”.
My go-to for ridding z2 rides during the summer is to ride with a slower group and lead it. Theres a group near me that has about 40-60 people that ride on the weekends split into 4 groups(14-17mph, 17-20mph, and a split 21mph+). If I am looking to do a hard workout, I will run with the 21+ group, however if I want to do a z2 ride I will ride with the 14-17mph group(which tends to be beginners) and lead it/set the pace. with this I get to practice setting a consistent leading pace, and I get to be responsible for new riders not getting dropped that way they are also enjoying the ride.
Great topic as the weather is hopefully about to turn and social rides will start up soon. But for those of us that are on plans, as we are in the more challenging build phases, I think having an idea of the intensity you are trying to work towards should factor into how you approach the group rides. Just make it clear at the beginning what you are out to do, and don’t break. Great content as always.
Very sensible answer. However, letting people drop you doesn't always result in people waiting for you even on rides that are supposed to be no-drop. What often ends up happening is people start putting the hammer down mid ride, just when you're the farthest from the start point. You're casually talking to someone and suddenly you're 50 meters behind and nobody's looking back, too busy to keep the wheel in front. That's why I mostly ride solo these days, I'm doing quality work on the turbo trainer. I'll ride with that group later in the season, but for now even though I could follow them, I would compromise my next trainings by needing too much recovery time from those rides. But I ride pretty much every day, very different mindset than some of those weekend warriors. Also another consideration : when they rude hard it's often not long enough intervals. Say they're riding at threshold for instance, it often lasts for a few minutes, but for it to be useful you would need to keep going for 10-15 minutes at least.
Just mix it up folks. Some regular group and solo too. It works. Balance whatever happens on the group session with your solo effort where you have total control. But I am just an older rider looking to keep fit & improve & have fun doing it, not compete.
That is what said before. “ I will be riding and will train competitively but not signing in a race”.. 3 years after , I said why not racing to complete my achievement and I did…
@12:30, if you listen to Inigo San Milan, you don't want to mess your Z2 quality by high intensity before or during. Do it only AFTER you have clocked the hours of easy ride. Lactate in blood (from high intensity) inhibites entry of fatty acids into blood stream and thus makes z2 only partially effective as only carbohydrates are oxidized in mitochondria in such conditions. Also, high intensity directs blood flow away from your fat storage so the transport cannot happen very much.
A video on how to use the heart rate monitor would be very helpful. A lot of people dismissed them after the power meters, but I think that they can still be a very useful tool to measure your body
Unfortunately in South Africa we have no choice but to ride in groups because if you ride solo, the chances of being mugged is exponentially increased. 😔
Good video as always, but it failed to discuss the drafting problem, which is a fundamental issue for Z2 group rides, even if no one is pushing the pace. Assuming evenly matched riders and mostly flat riding, it seems to me it's almost always going to be the case that either 1) the lead rider is working at the correct level and everyone in the draft has it too easy or 2) everyone in the draft is working at the correct level and the lead rider is working too hard. Further assuming a group of, say, four riders who alternate pulls evenly, that means each rider will either be in Z2 for 25% of the time and Z1 for 75% of the time (scenario #1), or in Z2 for 75% of the time and Z3 for 25% of the time (scenario #2). Either way, the Z2 ride is ruined, either because you spend most of your time at low-stimulus recovery effort or else because you keep interrupting your steady Z2 efforts with Z3 blasts (and even then your Z2 efforts aren't really Z2 efforts, because your system is still recovering from your previous Z3 effort right up until it's time for your next Z3 effort to begin). There are some workarounds here--ride in the mountains where drafting is less important (but not everyone has this geographical luxury, plus not many people are strong enough to do mountain rides in Z2), or be the strong rider who leads a group of weaker riders or vice versa (but this precludes the lead rider from riding with teammates or other evenly-matched riders)--but I'm curious to hear Dylan's further thoughts on the matter. Have I got my premises wrong? Are there other workarounds I'm not considering?
I saw a RUclips video on this where the Nero Continental team explain that when they do Z2 rides as a group, the guys on the front do Z3 to allow everyone else to do Z2. The idea is that rolling turns in Z3 for a few minutes at a time doesn’t “spoil” the Z2 aspect of the ride. But I agree that you need evenly matched riders on flattish terrain to do this.
@@robertlight2370 Indeed, a big question is whether and to what extent constantly hopping into Z3 for two to five minutes at a time undermines the Z2 aspect of the ride. At least two possible issues: 1) those repeated Z3 efforts increase the stress (and therefore the recovery requirements) of the ride without providing a commensurate training benefit, and 2) those repeated Z3 efforts keep shocking your system out of Z2, and so you're never really getting effective work done in that Z2 energy pathway because even when you're back in Z2 you're mostly still just recovering from Z3. Maybe I'm overthinking it! And perhaps, for example, repeated 5-minute Z4 efforts would be a problem but repeated 2-minute Z3 efforts aren't. But a lot of what's been said recently by Dylan, Seiler, Inigo San Millan, etc. suggests that these are non-trivial issues to figure out if one is looking to optimize training protocols.
At zone 2, the speeds and therefore draft benefits are lower. Riders behind can offset or sit up more or leave a bigger gap to hit more wind and moderate their power/HR ... rider in front can practice a more aero position. Zone 2 is a zone, so there is some leeway there. So, I think it can work that everyone is doing the same work.
Thanks for another great video Dylan. I've been working on incorporating your tips into my own training, and this answered my question as to whether a Zwift race might be a good Race Sim workout during the build phase.
Relatively new to road riding. 5 yrs. Wow, I have learned soooo much from experience which unfortunately is trial and error. I have finally discovered which group rides I can do in order to get some training benefit from them. But theres one group ride that does not exist for me and must be done solo. You guessed it, a true recovery ride. I question if anyone can do that in a group.
I enjoy the competitive aspect of the local world champs ride, and this has me doing much stronger efforts than I'm able to hold when I'm training solo. I do most of my zone 2 rides on my own
I regularly train solo - except the place where I go is also a firm favourite of many others meaning that I will encounter riders of many strengths and levels. You get those people who want to absolutely hammer it, those who want to at least break a sweat then those who just want to put in some easy miles. A few times i've been lucky, and encountered a rider I was very evenly matched with and just started pulling each other around the course without saying as much as a hello to each other. We were facing a rather strong head wind so we took turns pulling at the front at the start of every new lap until one of us had to head home. Id like to think that us being there at the same place and time on the same day made it a little easier for both of us to put in the miles. IIRC i clocked in 60miles that day which is probably a short ride for many people but I normally do about 30-35 laps at an more energetic pace before heading home. What i mean when i say _'more energetic'_ is I treat the ride like a mini-crit and try to keep pace with or chase any other rider that zooms past me. Occasionally I have managed to get into slightly bigger groups of 3-6 riders but they tend to be quite snobby and ignore me because Im not wearing the same tight form fitting gear as they are, have deep carbon rims or really expensive aero race bike. Despite all this, I often keep pace with them for quite a few laps before i decide to slow down and take things at an easier pace.
A huge part of this topic is the mental aspect…hard group rides at the wrong time can really dent motivation, hard group rides at the right time I find build my mental toughness to hurt…it’s a delicate balance.
I really appreciate the fact that your channel backs the science of the 80/20 "polarized" training method. There are other channels that also back this science, but not nearly enough. The two things I find that are extremely problematic are: 1. You can't really train with others, whether it's groups or just one or two other cyclists. Their zone 2 is probably not going to match yours, and as you point out, finding a group ride that sticks to their "recovery pace" advertisement is pretty much impossible. 2. I have never found a training plan, whether on Zwift or TrainerRoad, that have options for this type of training. They pretty much all focus on "sweet spot" training, which doesn't follow the science of polarized training at all. So you're left searching for individual workouts that do, or just making up your own, and that's not why I'm paying a monthly fee. I want a plan that I can follow week to week that will help me reach or maintain my fitness goals.
Update: I hadn't looked at Trainerroad in quite a while, but did so just a few days ago and they are supposedly beta testing a polarized training plan, so kudos to them for finally getting with the science.
Well, I use my group ride as a really hard ride for my age (58y and condition( 78 kgs) (100km at 32/33 kmph ) my zone 2 riding i do solo . If i would do a diagnostic on my group ride I must say it is a constant interval training because after every corner i have to go full blown power to catch up and than i can relax ( relative) a few 100 meters . What i notice now is that I’m getting stronger and faster after only 1 month .but ONLY because I do my zone two training for the rest of the week , so relativly slow and constant (27,28 kmph) hartrate around 130 bpm
I get bored riding in zone 2. Let's be honest, most roadies love to ride fast because fast is fun. I don't mind if the ride ended up as junk miles as long as I enjoyed the ride. i'll never be a pro anyway. Keep riding folks and have fun.
Anytime I do a group ride, I just consider it a freeride unless specifically stated and I know their fitness levels. When I specifically want to improve, I ride alone. I love both types of rides, but one is intentional and the other is just fun (and maybe lots of pain).
I have yet to figured out how to push my limits by riding by myself. When I am getting dropped up a hill, I somehow find another gear. For me, I get faster by getting pushed by others.
"I get faster by getting pushed by others" that is what Dylan is saying. For me it's about concentration; it's so easy to back off. I have a local "training hill", 7 km at 3.5% At that gradient we can choose our training. For a light ride pick a low gear and spin at 100, as I do when my 75 yo buddy wants a ride. For intervals, pick a high gear and sprint for 100 pedal strokes (it's important to count to keep concentration), then drop off the big ring and spin for 100 pedal strokes, then repeat. Etc.
What most people don't understand about zone 2 training is steady state. Imagine doing it in a fixed gear bike, the goal is to make that line graph straight as possible. Steady state training cleans the cadence and optimizes your pedalling. This is far more important than spiking watts for 4 hours. It trains your body to know exactly what rpms to what bpm to what watts looks like.
I love riding in packs. So I choose the pack according to my goals. Meaning I now enjoy riding Z1-Z2 with old timers on our legendary ring of Longchamp in Paris. And 2-3 rides a week at the same location but the brutal Fast Pack
Dylan, thanks for the great video! Can you please make video about best ways to schedule your training plans after ong illness? Warm greetings from Armenia
I’m the slowest rider in my regular group ride so it’s a fantastic hard ride for me. That Social Facilitation is real. For the guys waiting for at the top of the hill probably not so much.
At least in the beginning of my pathetic career group riding was the difference between riding and doing nothing. Great advice to ride steadily in the Tuesday and Wednesday rides in Zone 2 and go with the more advanced riders on Thursday's "race back to the park entrance" hammer fest. Leading up to my event I'll do my own planned workout on Saturday and Sunday.
I use to enjoy group rides a lot but it did hinder my performance significantly which is why most of my riding is done solo or with people who are on the same page as me. Dont get me wrong, group rides are a great way to socialize and build friendships but if you're focused on a specific goal for the season, be disciplined and focus on your training.
I bought an ebike for my easy days. It’s tied to my heart rate so it won’t let me go too hard. But I still get the high speed for bike handling and hanging with the group. And as a bigger rider I couldn’t ride up any hill zone 2 so this also fixes that.
Z2 with Zwift’s pacerbots Miguel or Maria one of the best way to go. And once a week, with Coco - for a higher end Z2. You’ll get your Z2 training but not solo riding and ride with riders from around the world 🌎 ❤️
I always push harder riding in a group, Im the guy that wants to be out in front pushing the pace. So it depends. Ive gotten way faster riding in groups, but some group rides are meant to be recovery rides. Part of the deal is if a group is meeting, its easier to get out the door......2 rides a week here are low intensity group rides. Mainly its supposed to be fun, most arent training to make a living at cycling.
Group rides fatigue me. They bring no benefit to improve my riding. I ride solo mostly and once in a while do a group ride (not a social one) to judge how better or worse ice become. In general Zone2, then i can have a long ride, and still be fresh enough to play with kids or help spouse with chores. Group rides: beer after ride, sleep on couch whole day to recuperate.
I just ride for mind now a days, but when I was racing and training I had the rare setup of having a coach in a group ride 2-3x a week. Each group ride was structured. Each time I took a pull I was instructed to do certain effort. My favorite days/workout were the 2 man TT 30-60 min effort. It would be continuous balls to wall and while working really well together. Always felt like a good boost and confidence. Ussually did these leading into race season or substituting when there were was no race.My fitness was best it was ever during those days.
My GF is a single mom working as a school teacher with two teenagers. She still manages 8-10. She was training for ultra races while working part time, school full time, with those same kids when we met. You just have to pick your priorities. Socializing is only done when running, no drinking, no television, no movies, rarely eating out, etc
Good videao! Zone 2 group rides will always be a miss, for instance, if I joined you on a zone 2 ride I would suffer as your zone 2 is most likely above my FTP, choose your groups wisely. The sufferfest group rides do have an advantage as a lot of cyclists, especially beginners, do not know how much they can truly suffer. Sometimes it takes the group to push them and get them to their true limits. Good vide
Great video Dylan, I like to alternate between structured efforts and Zwift races/group rides, IMO they both serve a purpose, structured efforts on the turbo improve my strength eg 4 x 8 mins @105% its controlled , you build a rhythm, its very exact, you either complete it or you don't , and my strength defiantly improves, Group rides/Zwift races on the other hand have a massive Stochastic effect that sends my heart rate through the roof, its only my pride and peer pressure that keeps me going, any other scenario and you'd quit with a heart rate that high, it teaches you to tolerate pain, you're at the mercy of the biggest hitter in the group, IMO combining the two will massively improve your fitness as you're approaching it from two different angles.
Beginners can benefit from constant group rides the most, it builds your pack riding skills and helps you find cycling friends, but since you get faster much more easily as a beginner the lack of structure doesn't hurt you as much. As you level up and disciplined training becomes more and more necessary to get stronger, the stuff in this video comes more into play.
also, don't forget the aspect of having fun while training - for me personally, I always go ride with a group if it's possible/ keep the training as fun as possible to have mental energy left for when training actually gets tough e.g. bad weather, fatigue in the third week
I love those weekend social coffee rides for long zone 2. I ride with casual rides far 'weaker' than me. I still at times must be disciplined and let them drop me to stay in zone 2. In those situations there is almost always others dropped due to ability or new riders dropped who I can watch out for and make sure they get to the end of the ride safe.
Being a bit of an introvert and enjoying my own company when riding helps keeping training structured. However the weekly one hour hard morning groupride simulates in some aspects a real road race so they’re on. And sometimes…just sometimes I join (and even lead!) a medium paced 100 k social weekend groupride with coffie stop. Love my solitude training but mustn’t turn all akward 😅
I can never find anyone near my pace for z2. They are usually too fast, and sometimes too slow. Just for kicks I tag on the back of faster groups sometimes just for the thrill. So I ride alone. Gets boring
I’ve only started regularly cycling for exercise (not commuting) in the last year, and joining a club has got me doing that. I’m probably still in the ‘I’d not be cycling today if I wasn’t out with my club’ stage so this doesn’t worry me too much :) but really interesting nonetheless
Stopped most group rides because the majority just want t😅o get a good ave speed by hiding in a stronger group or hit a STRAVA segment. Conversely riding in a group always frustrated to be easing along at a suboptimal power level due inevitable drafting. Worst of all when somebody riding race tyres in winter has three punctures when its 5 degC and you stand about freezing your arse off for 20 mins while they fumble around with frozen fingers. This was the final nail in the coffin for me.
A good video idea would be the difference between 3 zone and 5 zone training models, and how an individual can figure out what their zones are. That really aren't many videos on RUclips land for that.
Same goes for Zwift group rides that are, theoretically, supposed to stay together and not go past a certain wattage~ this ol' competitive thing gets ramped and pretty soon everyone is at AT. Do the easy alone or with a slower rider and it's a lot easier to stay in Z-2.
Interestingly the aim of most of our fast weeknight group rides is to go as fast as possible without dropping anyone, so it's more like a TTT, there doesn't tend to be attacking and dropping untill the last 5 mins.
Right before I heard Dylan tell what the secret was "Let them drop you", I heard Morphius from the Matrix saying "Do you want. to. know. what. it. is?" Let them drop you. Boom! Mind blown.
works for me, nobody wants to wake up hours before dawn to ride with me. everyone rides way later in the day. also i much prefer picking my own lines, not eating dirt behind someone and hitting all kinds of garbage i can’t see. usually i get zero flats when riding solo.
That’s very irritating, my dude. If i go out for a ride with someone else who says “i want to stay in zone two on this ride,” what zone two is for them is different than for me for all kinds of reasons.
The old saying, "If you want to get fast, ride with faster people" doesn't work I guess. I find that I get dropped anyway (not on purpose, they're faster than me) and it ends up being a solo ride anyway. The local "group" ride for me is like a dysfunctional family at Christmas...we stay together for the beginning for a short time and then everyone does their own thing. It's strange.
Those style group rides are almost the worst. An organized, race-ish based group will help more than you'd expect. Either find a new group or change plan because the group most likely won't change
One group ride per week. This ride is slightly faster than my solo rides. This puts me into zone 4 for 30-40 minutes. All other rides are done solo so I can accomplish the goal of the ride. One other ride is a much harder effort, either hill repeats or sprints. The rest are largely zone 2.
If I don't know if A is better than B or vice versa, I just do both. So I am at most half way from optimum, and variation is a quality on its own. Physically and mentally likewise. Unstructured hard efforts in running are called fartlek and have ther place in every advanced training plan. So just do one structured interval sess, one hard group ride, one structured zone 2 and one easy group ride. I bet it makes you a better cyclist in any dimension.
I'm coming back from 6 months of illness went out for the first on Saturday and 20miles in a group ride I was done ended up cycling 37 miles very slowly at the end was getting dropped everywhere ☹️
I used to ride with this relative newbie who invited me to a Zone 2 ride, then post the ride we did on Strava labelling the ride as such when its clear from the stats (and what I experienced) that it was mostly Zone 3-5 with hill sprints all over the place. Yeah, stopped riding with that guy.
I think the psychological aspect is really important for intensity in terms of fast group rides. It's much easier (for me at least) to hold a higher intensity for longer when I have somebody to chase/follow.
Yes for me this is totally true as well. I can push myself very hard in a Zwift race these days, or fast group rides in the past, and it's fun. Not so much in a workout.
So I'm pretty sure most everything you say goes right over my head, Dylan, tho' I appreciate your sharing the results of your research and I do fondly recall the positive group dynamic of doing stunts like jumps and drops on 20" bikes in the '70s in California. It was actually insane, as I think back, what we prompted each other to do but that's what happens when everyone thinks they're riding motorcycles, lol. And to think those Southern California manufacturers cooked up BMX bikes after we maxxed out our Sting-Rays. it was great to be part of that scene and I am still riding at age 63. And thanks to your videos, I plan to roost all of my rivals in the over-60 class at a gravel event one of these days. Not sure they need to shake in their boots just yet, it'll be awhile before I come up with the cash for one of those bikes that guarantees a win. 😀
Sadly, its not the bike that wins in bicycle races. Ive gone out and done bicycle races, and it seems that what wins is the rider who should be racing Cat 1, is racing at the lowest level. He wants to win so bad he'll do anything to make it happen.................there are some STRONG 60+ riders. Hell we have some really strong 70 + riders around here.
@@bradsanders6954 Thanks for sharing your experiences with that and I'd do fine in a big event at age 63, tho' more likely to be awarded an also-ran ribbon, not sure. But I know what you mean about the racing scene, it can be an absolute mess and I never looked back after a crit flip in the DC area in '84 when I was just happily amassing points to get to Cat. 2 for fun as a nearly 25-year-old soldier with an active, adventurous life. And the crash was bad, not my fault and no worries, but the other guys on the team did zero for me and my injuries, no concern and no help getting my broken Peugeot PSV10 to my GTI and that was disgusting to me, I meant nothing to them and I had won races for them. And that's why the gravel scene appeals to me, I was one of those California kids on a Sting-Ray and it'd be fun to ride all day again in the dirt. 😀
Could you maybe make a video once about how to train as a teenager. If there is any difference to adults in training. Whether teenagers should lift or not. How should the diet look like and so on.
Zone 2 and drafting doesn't go well together either. I often find myself hanging off the back just to be able to keep a consistent pace (also out of the corners).
Personally it depends on your ability the groups ability, if you need bringing up go with a group better than your ability especially in preparation for a race, we all need to test ourselves I do this once a month. Totally agree with just let the group go if they want to, I've found most of the time they don't get back at the same speed they started or even bonk.
Fast group rides can have structure if you have a plan going into the ride. For example, when I'm on the front, I do threshold for 4-8 mins. I don't care if the group has to slow down a little for me, i'm on the front and I make the rules, lol. When I'm done I pull off and recover in the back. By the end of the ride I can easily accumulate 30-40 mins at threshold.
I don't cycle (except as a commuter) but I have always assumed that riding in packs is a/ not serious top level training but b/ motivates that level of cyclist to actually do it.
Step up your training:
Coaching: www.ignitioncoachco.com/signup
Online training plans: www.trainingpeaks.com/coach/dylanjohnsontraining#trainingplans
Thanks Dylan for telling me I'm a better cyclist because I have no friends.
😂
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Lol
Me too 😂
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"Just let them drop you" CLASSIC! I've been doing this for years, and although it causes some head scratching from other riders to begin with, you are right, they do catch on.
And then they leave you lead up front.
This works for me, and then I catch up once I’m doing my high intensity effort up the climb. Balances itself out, and you get a bit of a flex overtaking everyone on the climb.😁
Thats what I do as well.
And take the short cut
Group rides are all about compromise. This is why I generally prefer solo rides as a mainstay and add in a few group rides for social interactions. The group rides with 5 minute stops every 30 minutes are really just hanging out with your buddies. Finding the right group that is at your fitness level is the challenge.
Yup. Some group rides here I basically end up coasting along. A big % of these riders want someone to tow them for the whole ride, they will never take a pull no matter the day.
There is low intensity, and there is complete boredom, 2 different things.
Im out for fun, and get a good thrash in. A good climb means everybody goes their pace and re-group at the top.
While I'm simply a recreational rider I am interested in and appreciate your scientific approach and research into the sport.
Just want to let you know that even after this weekend RUclips autocomplete search for Dylan still has 'Dylan Johnson' ahead of 'Dylan Van Baarle'. Way to go.
Greg Lemond said he would train alone to avoid others messing up his training plan.
Greg had a lot of wisdom
Amen! Glad some people still know who he is. All these newbie riders have no clue who Lemond is -_-
@@newoldsteel He's a frame maker, right? I think I saw one of his frames at a garage sale...haha (humor)!
I love your overly technical channel which adds an entirely vacuous amount of aaahhhh technical stuff in my 1+2 brains! it is so aaahhh usefull to my daily club rides! Details: I forget all in a split second after the video is over! Toooooooo much mathematics!
Poor zone 2 discipline in group rides creates more "junk miles" than most people realize. According to Dr Inigo San Millan, going above zone 2 shuts down targeted fitness adaptations until lactate is cleared, which can take 5 to 20 minutes. So, group rides not only result in junk miles, they put you in a penalty box for several minutes AFTER each hard effort and can easily negate 30-40 minutes of the workout. It's better to save the harder efforts for the end of the ride after you've completed all your planned zone 2 work.
I disagree with this and its relative.
1. It depends what shape you are in.
2. It depends on how you are using that group ride to train.
The problem with group rides is we get into our own heads.
@@mattk8810 it also assumes that everyone is training ideally on their solo rides. My solo rides are less structured and more likely to be zones 3-4 mixed, but maybe I'm the odd one out
My strongest years had mostly group ride miles. I stay in the back or middle until the sprints. Most of the time I could stay out front at high zone 2.
I actually find I ride too hard on solo rides, thus a group ride with the right people acts as a pacing partner.
I dunno, I have ridden almost all group rides the last 3 or 4 years, and have never gone so well on the bike. If its junk miles it sure doesnt show.
Being ultra strict on group rides, usually means riders quit showing up.
Its supposed to be fun.
You're right. Going above Z2 in the middle of a long ride causes additional problems as well like much higher levels of fatigue or soreness after the ride or even bonking the legs. All of which requires longer recovery period. However, if I put ALL my above-Z2 efforts at the end of the ride, I get none of these issues even if the duration of the above-Z2 efforts is the same as the problematic version doing it in the middle of a long ride.
6:21 I like that trick. I used to use it when jogging with friends. Ask them a question as you start up a hill. Thanks for the great advice.
I dunno. The chatting in the pack thing, a local rider who raced for many years, always maintains its not the time for talking. Its a ride, its time for concentrating and riding.
I know for sure some cant talk and ride a bike at the same time.
Great video, and the same conclusion I came to a number of years ago. I now do zone 2 rides on the indoor trainer or solo. For weekend group riding, I ride up to meet the group (zone 2 for 90min), ride at whatever pace they want, get in one or two proper high intensity efforts up the climbs for the day (8-10min long), then solo ride back after. Saves me from being ‘that guy’ in the group who’s too obsessed with training to enjoy the social ride.
I have 2 friends that are also serious about training. We call each other up and if we have workouts that are the same zone then we ride together. If we don't, then we go our seperate ways once the intervals start.
Group riding skills are very important to train too, first just for safety, and secondly to learn how to move around in a group at key times etc.
That is true. Ive ridden in a fast moving pack, and then there's a corner, which is my favorite part...........but others haven't learned how to turn a bike, and stay in line, and not go off the road or nearly so....they might be strong but haven't learned how to ride a bike.
Others will never learn how to draft, and hold a steady pace. Some simply cant do this, and once the pace picks up its a for real problem. It can be the cause for crashes, or people going off the back of the pack. At the least it makes everyone behind the slinky person be perpetually jumping and sprinting to keep catching up.
I tend to look for an opening and jump in in front of the person who cant hold a pace in a pack, it may be rude but it has to be done. Obviously I'm competitive.
Since January, I have started letting my friends know when I am sticking to my endurance pace. I let them know that I don’t expect them to wait for me and it’s all good. Sometimes it takes some discipline to hold my endurance pace as my friends and teammates pull away. But I remind myself of my goals and that “the ego is the enemy”.
My go-to for ridding z2 rides during the summer is to ride with a slower group and lead it.
Theres a group near me that has about 40-60 people that ride on the weekends split into 4 groups(14-17mph, 17-20mph, and a split 21mph+).
If I am looking to do a hard workout, I will run with the 21+ group, however if I want to do a z2 ride I will ride with the 14-17mph group(which tends to be beginners) and lead it/set the pace. with this I get to practice setting a consistent leading pace, and I get to be responsible for new riders not getting dropped that way they are also enjoying the ride.
Great topic as the weather is hopefully about to turn and social rides will start up soon. But for those of us that are on plans, as we are in the more challenging build phases, I think having an idea of the intensity you are trying to work towards should factor into how you approach the group rides. Just make it clear at the beginning what you are out to do, and don’t break. Great content as always.
Very sensible answer. However, letting people drop you doesn't always result in people waiting for you even on rides that are supposed to be no-drop. What often ends up happening is people start putting the hammer down mid ride, just when you're the farthest from the start point. You're casually talking to someone and suddenly you're 50 meters behind and nobody's looking back, too busy to keep the wheel in front. That's why I mostly ride solo these days, I'm doing quality work on the turbo trainer. I'll ride with that group later in the season, but for now even though I could follow them, I would compromise my next trainings by needing too much recovery time from those rides. But I ride pretty much every day, very different mindset than some of those weekend warriors. Also another consideration : when they rude hard it's often not long enough intervals. Say they're riding at threshold for instance, it often lasts for a few minutes, but for it to be useful you would need to keep going for 10-15 minutes at least.
Just mix it up folks. Some regular group and solo too. It works. Balance whatever happens on the group session with your solo effort where you have total control. But I am just an older rider looking to keep fit & improve & have fun doing it, not compete.
That is what said before. “ I will be riding and will train competitively but not signing in a race”.. 3 years after , I said why not racing to complete my achievement and I did…
@12:30, if you listen to Inigo San Milan, you don't want to mess your Z2 quality by high intensity before or during. Do it only AFTER you have clocked the hours of easy ride. Lactate in blood (from high intensity) inhibites entry of fatty acids into blood stream and thus makes z2 only partially effective as only carbohydrates are oxidized in mitochondria in such conditions. Also, high intensity directs blood flow away from your fat storage so the transport cannot happen very much.
A video on how to use the heart rate monitor would be very helpful. A lot of people dismissed them after the power meters, but I think that they can still be a very useful tool to measure your body
Unfortunately in South Africa we have no choice but to ride in groups because if you ride solo, the chances of being mugged is exponentially increased. 😔
I feel for you, is the same in Argentina.
really!!!!!
That is crazy, yawl have guns?
@@cracked229 you live in south Africa as well?
You’re all welcome to Norway 🇳🇴 😄
Good video as always, but it failed to discuss the drafting problem, which is a fundamental issue for Z2 group rides, even if no one is pushing the pace. Assuming evenly matched riders and mostly flat riding, it seems to me it's almost always going to be the case that either 1) the lead rider is working at the correct level and everyone in the draft has it too easy or 2) everyone in the draft is working at the correct level and the lead rider is working too hard. Further assuming a group of, say, four riders who alternate pulls evenly, that means each rider will either be in Z2 for 25% of the time and Z1 for 75% of the time (scenario #1), or in Z2 for 75% of the time and Z3 for 25% of the time (scenario #2). Either way, the Z2 ride is ruined, either because you spend most of your time at low-stimulus recovery effort or else because you keep interrupting your steady Z2 efforts with Z3 blasts (and even then your Z2 efforts aren't really Z2 efforts, because your system is still recovering from your previous Z3 effort right up until it's time for your next Z3 effort to begin).
There are some workarounds here--ride in the mountains where drafting is less important (but not everyone has this geographical luxury, plus not many people are strong enough to do mountain rides in Z2), or be the strong rider who leads a group of weaker riders or vice versa (but this precludes the lead rider from riding with teammates or other evenly-matched riders)--but I'm curious to hear Dylan's further thoughts on the matter. Have I got my premises wrong? Are there other workarounds I'm not considering?
Yep you nailed it.
I saw a RUclips video on this where the Nero Continental team explain that when they do Z2 rides as a group, the guys on the front do Z3 to allow everyone else to do Z2. The idea is that rolling turns in Z3 for a few minutes at a time doesn’t “spoil” the Z2 aspect of the ride. But I agree that you need evenly matched riders on flattish terrain to do this.
@@robertlight2370 Indeed, a big question is whether and to what extent constantly hopping into Z3 for two to five minutes at a time undermines the Z2 aspect of the ride. At least two possible issues: 1) those repeated Z3 efforts increase the stress (and therefore the recovery requirements) of the ride without providing a commensurate training benefit, and 2) those repeated Z3 efforts keep shocking your system out of Z2, and so you're never really getting effective work done in that Z2 energy pathway because even when you're back in Z2 you're mostly still just recovering from Z3.
Maybe I'm overthinking it! And perhaps, for example, repeated 5-minute Z4 efforts would be a problem but repeated 2-minute Z3 efforts aren't. But a lot of what's been said recently by Dylan, Seiler, Inigo San Millan, etc. suggests that these are non-trivial issues to figure out if one is looking to optimize training protocols.
At zone 2, the speeds and therefore draft benefits are lower. Riders behind can offset or sit up more or leave a bigger gap to hit more wind and moderate their power/HR ... rider in front can practice a more aero position. Zone 2 is a zone, so there is some leeway there. So, I think it can work that everyone is doing the same work.
Thanks for another great video Dylan. I've been working on incorporating your tips into my own training, and this answered my question as to whether a Zwift race might be a good Race Sim workout during the build phase.
Relatively new to road riding. 5 yrs. Wow, I have learned soooo much from experience which unfortunately is trial and error. I have finally discovered which group rides I can do in order to get some training benefit from them. But theres one group ride that does not exist for me and must be done solo. You guessed it, a true recovery ride. I question if anyone can do that in a group.
I enjoy the competitive aspect of the local world champs ride, and this has me doing much stronger efforts than I'm able to hold when I'm training solo. I do most of my zone 2 rides on my own
I regularly train solo - except the place where I go is also a firm favourite of many others meaning that I will encounter riders of many strengths and levels. You get those people who want to absolutely hammer it, those who want to at least break a sweat then those who just want to put in some easy miles. A few times i've been lucky, and encountered a rider I was very evenly matched with and just started pulling each other around the course without saying as much as a hello to each other. We were facing a rather strong head wind so we took turns pulling at the front at the start of every new lap until one of us had to head home. Id like to think that us being there at the same place and time on the same day made it a little easier for both of us to put in the miles. IIRC i clocked in 60miles that day which is probably a short ride for many people but I normally do about 30-35 laps at an more energetic pace before heading home. What i mean when i say _'more energetic'_ is I treat the ride like a mini-crit and try to keep pace with or chase any other rider that zooms past me.
Occasionally I have managed to get into slightly bigger groups of 3-6 riders but they tend to be quite snobby and ignore me because Im not wearing the same tight form fitting gear as they are, have deep carbon rims or really expensive aero race bike. Despite all this, I often keep pace with them for quite a few laps before i decide to slow down and take things at an easier pace.
A huge part of this topic is the mental aspect…hard group rides at the wrong time can really dent motivation, hard group rides at the right time I find build my mental toughness to hurt…it’s a delicate balance.
Excellent presentation Dylan. Your work is always top-class. Keep going. Thanks.
I really appreciate the fact that your channel backs the science of the 80/20 "polarized" training method. There are other channels that also back this science, but not nearly enough. The two things I find that are extremely problematic are: 1. You can't really train with others, whether it's groups or just one or two other cyclists. Their zone 2 is probably not going to match yours, and as you point out, finding a group ride that sticks to their "recovery pace" advertisement is pretty much impossible. 2. I have never found a training plan, whether on Zwift or TrainerRoad, that have options for this type of training. They pretty much all focus on "sweet spot" training, which doesn't follow the science of polarized training at all. So you're left searching for individual workouts that do, or just making up your own, and that's not why I'm paying a monthly fee. I want a plan that I can follow week to week that will help me reach or maintain my fitness goals.
Update: I hadn't looked at Trainerroad in quite a while, but did so just a few days ago and they are supposedly beta testing a polarized training plan, so kudos to them for finally getting with the science.
Well, I use my group ride as a really hard ride for my age (58y and condition( 78 kgs) (100km at 32/33 kmph ) my zone 2 riding i do solo . If i would do a diagnostic on my group ride I must say it is a constant interval training because after every corner i have to go full blown power to catch up and than i can relax ( relative) a few 100 meters . What i notice now is that I’m getting stronger and faster after only 1 month .but ONLY because I do my zone two training for the rest of the week , so relativly slow and constant (27,28 kmph) hartrate around 130 bpm
I get bored riding in zone 2. Let's be honest, most roadies love to ride fast because fast is fun. I don't mind if the ride ended up as junk miles as long as I enjoyed the ride. i'll never be a pro anyway. Keep riding folks and have fun.
Hi Dylan!! Depends on what group it is..
Anytime I do a group ride, I just consider it a freeride unless specifically stated and I know their fitness levels. When I specifically want to improve, I ride alone. I love both types of rides, but one is intentional and the other is just fun (and maybe lots of pain).
I have yet to figured out how to push my limits by riding by myself. When I am getting dropped up a hill, I somehow find another gear. For me, I get faster by getting pushed by others.
"I get faster by getting pushed by others" that is what Dylan is saying.
For me it's about concentration; it's so easy to back off. I have a local "training hill", 7 km at 3.5% At that gradient we can choose our training. For a light ride pick a low gear and spin at 100, as I do when my 75 yo buddy wants a ride. For intervals, pick a high gear and sprint for 100 pedal strokes (it's important to count to keep concentration), then drop off the big ring and spin for 100 pedal strokes, then repeat. Etc.
What most people don't understand about zone 2 training is steady state. Imagine doing it in a fixed gear bike, the goal is to make that line graph straight as possible. Steady state training cleans the cadence and optimizes your pedalling. This is far more important than spiking watts for 4 hours. It trains your body to know exactly what rpms to what bpm to what watts looks like.
I love riding in packs. So I choose the pack according to my goals. Meaning I now enjoy riding Z1-Z2 with old timers on our legendary ring of Longchamp in Paris. And 2-3 rides a week at the same location but the brutal Fast Pack
Do you know the band "Fires in the Distance" ?
Dillons zone 2 is my FTP 🤣
Dylan, thanks for the great video! Can you please make video about best ways to schedule your training plans after ong illness? Warm greetings from Armenia
I’m the slowest rider in my regular group ride so it’s a fantastic hard ride for me. That Social Facilitation is real. For the guys waiting for at the top of the hill probably not so much.
Well said … awesome watch !!!
"Many of us enjoy the company of our fellow cyclists..." I'm gonna stop you right there, sir
Dylan thanks again for another great video
We would like to see a video about Zone 2 please
Very informative analysis, thanks
I know the groups are not structured, but I swear I push harder than I ever do alone.
"Let them drop you." I support this approach. Love it.
At least in the beginning of my pathetic career group riding was the difference between riding and doing nothing. Great advice to ride steadily in the Tuesday and Wednesday rides in Zone 2 and go with the more advanced riders on Thursday's "race back to the park entrance" hammer fest. Leading up to my event I'll do my own planned workout on Saturday and Sunday.
Im believin in polar. I have been adopting doing some ZRaces after a lift session earlier that day. -U10
I use to enjoy group rides a lot but it did hinder my performance significantly which is why most of my riding is done solo or with people who are on the same page as me.
Dont get me wrong, group rides are a great way to socialize and build friendships but if you're focused on a specific goal for the season, be disciplined and focus on your training.
I bought an ebike for my easy days. It’s tied to my heart rate so it won’t let me go too hard. But I still get the high speed for bike handling and hanging with the group. And as a bigger rider I couldn’t ride up any hill zone 2 so this also fixes that.
Great topic with valuable insights.
Z2 with Zwift’s pacerbots Miguel or Maria one of the best way to go. And once a week, with Coco - for a higher end Z2. You’ll get your Z2 training but not solo riding and ride with riders from around the world 🌎 ❤️
I always push harder riding in a group, Im the guy that wants to be out in front pushing the pace.
So it depends. Ive gotten way faster riding in groups, but some group rides are meant to be recovery rides.
Part of the deal is if a group is meeting, its easier to get out the door......2 rides a week here are low intensity group rides. Mainly its supposed to be fun, most arent training to make a living at cycling.
i train solo, always get dropped on the descents by group riders. However on the climbs i drop them
Best video so far
Group rides fatigue me. They bring no benefit to improve my riding. I ride solo mostly and once in a while do a group ride (not a social one) to judge how better or worse ice become. In general Zone2, then i can have a long ride, and still be fresh enough to play with kids or help spouse with chores. Group rides: beer after ride, sleep on couch whole day to recuperate.
I just ride for mind now a days, but when I was racing and training I had the rare setup of having a coach in a group ride 2-3x a week. Each group ride was structured. Each time I took a pull I was instructed to do certain effort. My favorite days/workout were the 2 man TT 30-60 min effort. It would be continuous balls to wall and while working really well together. Always felt like a good boost and confidence. Ussually did these leading into race season or substituting when there were was no race.My fitness was best it was ever during those days.
@6:32 made me laugh out loud haha, loving the videos and learning heaps!
I do zone 2 rides....to the grocery and auto parts stores. Lolol. A drop is a drop.
"Time crunched athletes with only 10h a week of training."
Me as a father of 2 little ones thinking: "Good week, I got 4h in!"
Im the same. Rarely have more than 5 hours a week to ride. My ftp is still under 200w after 5 years of "training"... Its like that
Same boat here. It's definitely a challenge!
My GF is a single mom working as a school teacher with two teenagers. She still manages 8-10.
She was training for ultra races while working part time, school full time, with those same kids when we met.
You just have to pick your priorities. Socializing is only done when running, no drinking, no television, no movies, rarely eating out, etc
This video made me realize that Zone 2 is way below what I would think it would be.
Good videao!
Zone 2 group rides will always be a miss, for instance, if I joined you on a zone 2 ride I would suffer as your zone 2 is most likely above my FTP, choose your groups wisely.
The sufferfest group rides do have an advantage as a lot of cyclists, especially beginners, do not know how much they can truly suffer. Sometimes it takes the group to push them and get them to their true limits. Good vide
Great video Dylan, I like to alternate between structured efforts and Zwift races/group rides, IMO they both serve a purpose, structured efforts on the turbo improve my strength eg 4 x 8 mins @105% its controlled , you build a rhythm, its very exact, you either complete it or you don't , and my strength defiantly improves, Group rides/Zwift races on the other hand have a massive Stochastic effect that sends my heart rate through the roof, its only my pride and peer pressure that keeps me going, any other scenario and you'd quit with a heart rate that high, it teaches you to tolerate pain, you're at the mercy of the biggest hitter in the group, IMO combining the two will massively improve your fitness as you're approaching it from two different angles.
Beginners can benefit from constant group rides the most, it builds your pack riding skills and helps you find cycling friends, but since you get faster much more easily as a beginner the lack of structure doesn't hurt you as much. As you level up and disciplined training becomes more and more necessary to get stronger, the stuff in this video comes more into play.
also, don't forget the aspect of having fun while training -
for me personally, I always go ride with a group if it's possible/ keep the training as fun as possible to have mental energy left for when training actually gets tough e.g. bad weather, fatigue in the third week
I love those weekend social coffee rides for long zone 2. I ride with casual rides far 'weaker' than me. I still at times must be disciplined and let them drop me to stay in zone 2. In those situations there is almost always others dropped due to ability or new riders dropped who I can watch out for and make sure they get to the end of the ride safe.
Finally vindicated, I'm a Loner, not a Loser!!!
Being a bit of an introvert and enjoying my own company when riding helps keeping training structured. However the weekly one hour hard morning groupride simulates in some aspects a real road race so they’re on. And sometimes…just sometimes I join (and even lead!) a medium paced 100 k social weekend groupride with coffie stop. Love my solitude training but mustn’t turn all akward 😅
Backwards cap Dylan is probably 90% of the reason I'm here
One mans zone 2 is another mans zone 3
Or zone4
I vibe more with backwards hat Dylan
Dylan: "let them drop you"
BHD: "ummmm.....no"
🤣
What about doing long Z2 sessions, and finishing with a short high intensity interval ?
what about it? That works.
I can never find anyone near my pace for z2. They are usually too fast, and sometimes too slow. Just for kicks I tag on the back of faster groups sometimes just for the thrill. So I ride alone. Gets boring
I’ve only started regularly cycling for exercise (not commuting) in the last year, and joining a club has got me doing that. I’m probably still in the ‘I’d not be cycling today if I wasn’t out with my club’ stage so this doesn’t worry me too much :) but really interesting nonetheless
Stopped most group rides because the majority just want t😅o get a good ave speed by hiding in a stronger group or hit a STRAVA segment. Conversely riding in a group always frustrated to be easing along at a suboptimal power level due inevitable drafting. Worst of all when somebody riding race tyres in winter has three punctures when its 5 degC and you stand about freezing your arse off for 20 mins while they fumble around with frozen fingers. This was the final nail in the coffin for me.
Thanks Man ! why is the bike behind you , setup with a such long stem and the saddle pushed all the way forward ? ? ? ? ~peace~
Dylan, I love you as much as a man can love another man without crossing the line.
bromance!
A good video idea would be the difference between 3 zone and 5 zone training models, and how an individual can figure out what their zones are. That really aren't many videos on RUclips land for that.
Same goes for Zwift group rides that are, theoretically, supposed to stay together and not go past a certain wattage~ this ol' competitive thing gets ramped and pretty soon everyone is at AT. Do the easy alone or with a slower rider and it's a lot easier to stay in Z-2.
Interestingly the aim of most of our fast weeknight group rides is to go as fast as possible without dropping anyone, so it's more like a TTT, there doesn't tend to be attacking and dropping untill the last 5 mins.
Right before I heard Dylan tell what the secret was "Let them drop you", I heard Morphius from the Matrix saying "Do you want. to. know. what. it. is?" Let them drop you. Boom! Mind blown.
works for me, nobody wants to wake up hours before dawn to ride with me. everyone rides way later in the day.
also i much prefer picking my own lines, not eating dirt behind someone and hitting all kinds of garbage i can’t see. usually i get zero flats when riding solo.
I don't like group rides, because the draft makes it far to easy, barely pushing 100w when riding in a group op 20.
That’s very irritating, my dude. If i go out for a ride with someone else who says “i want to stay in zone two on this ride,” what zone two is for them is different than for me for all kinds of reasons.
The old saying, "If you want to get fast, ride with faster people" doesn't work I guess. I find that I get dropped anyway (not on purpose, they're faster than me) and it ends up being a solo ride anyway. The local "group" ride for me is like a dysfunctional family at Christmas...we stay together for the beginning for a short time and then everyone does their own thing. It's strange.
Those style group rides are almost the worst. An organized, race-ish based group will help more than you'd expect. Either find a new group or change plan because the group most likely won't change
One group ride per week. This ride is slightly faster than my solo rides. This puts me into zone 4 for 30-40 minutes. All other rides are done solo so I can accomplish the goal of the ride. One other ride is a much harder effort, either hill repeats or sprints. The rest are largely zone 2.
If I don't know if A is better than B or vice versa, I just do both. So I am at most half way from optimum, and variation is a quality on its own. Physically and mentally likewise.
Unstructured hard efforts in running are called fartlek and have ther place in every advanced training plan. So just do one structured interval sess, one hard group ride, one structured zone 2 and one easy group ride. I bet it makes you a better cyclist in any dimension.
I'm coming back from 6 months of illness went out for the first on Saturday and 20miles in a group ride I was done ended up cycling 37 miles very slowly at the end was getting dropped everywhere ☹️
I used to ride with this relative newbie who invited me to a Zone 2 ride, then post the ride we did on Strava labelling the ride as such when its clear from the stats (and what I experienced) that it was mostly Zone 3-5 with hill sprints all over the place. Yeah, stopped riding with that guy.
I hate people anyway. Forever alone ✊
I think the psychological aspect is really important for intensity in terms of fast group rides. It's much easier (for me at least) to hold a higher intensity for longer when I have somebody to chase/follow.
Yes for me this is totally true as well. I can push myself very hard in a Zwift race these days, or fast group rides in the past, and it's fun. Not so much in a workout.
So I'm pretty sure most everything you say goes right over my head, Dylan, tho' I appreciate your sharing the results of your research and I do fondly recall the positive group dynamic of doing stunts like jumps and drops on 20" bikes in the '70s in California. It was actually insane, as I think back, what we prompted each other to do but that's what happens when everyone thinks they're riding motorcycles, lol. And to think those Southern California manufacturers cooked up BMX bikes after we maxxed out our Sting-Rays. it was great to be part of that scene and I am still riding at age 63. And thanks to your videos, I plan to roost all of my rivals in the over-60 class at a gravel event one of these days. Not sure they need to shake in their boots just yet, it'll be awhile before I come up with the cash for one of those bikes that guarantees a win. 😀
Sadly, its not the bike that wins in bicycle races. Ive gone out and done bicycle races, and it seems that what wins is the rider who should be racing Cat 1, is racing at the lowest level.
He wants to win so bad he'll do anything to make it happen.................there are some STRONG 60+ riders. Hell we have some really strong 70 + riders around here.
@@bradsanders6954 Thanks for sharing your experiences with that and I'd do fine in a big event at age 63, tho' more likely to be awarded an also-ran ribbon, not sure. But I know what you mean about the racing scene, it can be an absolute mess and I never looked back after a crit flip in the DC area in '84 when I was just happily amassing points to get to Cat. 2 for fun as a nearly 25-year-old soldier with an active, adventurous life. And the crash was bad, not my fault and no worries, but the other guys on the team did zero for me and my injuries, no concern and no help getting my broken Peugeot PSV10 to my GTI and that was disgusting to me, I meant nothing to them and I had won races for them. And that's why the gravel scene appeals to me, I was one of those California kids on a Sting-Ray and it'd be fun to ride all day again in the dirt. 😀
Could you maybe make a video once about how to train as a teenager. If there is any difference to adults in training. Whether teenagers should lift or not. How should the diet look like and so on.
Funny @6:58, I've been to Cool, CA! :P
Zone 2 and drafting doesn't go well together either. I often find myself hanging off the back just to be able to keep a consistent pace (also out of the corners).
Personally it depends on your ability the groups ability, if you need bringing up go with a group better than your ability especially in preparation for a race, we all need to test ourselves I do this once a month. Totally agree with just let the group go if they want to, I've found most of the time they don't get back at the same speed they started or even bonk.
Fast group rides can have structure if you have a plan going into the ride. For example, when I'm on the front, I do threshold for 4-8 mins. I don't care if the group has to slow down a little for me, i'm on the front and I make the rules, lol. When I'm done I pull off and recover in the back. By the end of the ride I can easily accumulate 30-40 mins at threshold.
I don't cycle (except as a commuter) but I have always assumed that riding in packs is a/ not serious top level training but b/ motivates that level of cyclist to actually do it.
Cycling Small Talk: "So what size gravel tires are you running?" - Backwards Hat Dilan