Back in the early 90's, i read an article in Black Belt Magazine. It says ninja came from a clan in China called Lin Kuei. Some one of the clan fled to Japan and with the knowledge he had from Lin Kuei made his own clan and fighting art. Sounds like the Lore of Mortal Kombat. Looks like the developers of the game did their home work
It's important to note that the Tokugawa utilized shinobi extensively. Their view on how it fit into the context of bushido could differ from other clans. I recall reading an account from the late Ashikaga shogunate about early shinobi activity. At the time there was a sort of trade union that had developed in the area around Lake Biwa. From my understanding it was operating not only as an economic entity, but in a political sense to a certain degree. This of course was something unheard of in a feudal system. The area was rich in resources, which is the reason for the concentration of artisan. The Ashikaga obviously would want to acquire those resources for themselves, and proceeded to invade. The trade union of course didn't have a standing army, definitely not one which could stand up to professional samurai. As it turns out, however, the shogun's forces were met with unexpected resistance. The locals used guerilla tactics, presumably learned from their neighbors in Iga / Koga. It's uncertain though if they actually received shinobi assistance, or if they in fact fled to the Iga / Koga region after the conflict to found the shinobi clans which would come to be highly renown. Not sure if you have heard of this account or not. It's rather interesting, but I've only ever seen information on it once. It may be something to look into.
Just picture the ancient japanese CIA and you got it. I bought his book on ninja as an avid spycraft enthusiast and it's pretty much the same back then as it is now varying mostly to adapt to the unique environment and politics of the time and place. If you like networks of secret agents you should totally buy his book.
Nice video mate. I was attached to a intelligence unit in the army for 2 years, its nice to see subterfuge/intelligence hasn't really changed much (fundamentals)
Hi, great video. You said Samurai would spy but they hate to lie. Isn't lying almost implicit in espionage? I guess there are other methods but it seems like a big aspect of espionage would be lying about who you are or what your intentions are.
I have a question for you Mrs. Anthony Cummin. I heard about a romantic story of some ninja clan. And I want to know if there is any validity you can find in this story. Basically it goes like this. Maybe not all the ninjas, but some ninja clan would have been at first a resistance or rebellion against the Shoguns oppression. Some ronins would have joined with some villagers and developped underground methods corresponding to the shinobi to do rebellious actions. In that they also gained many martial skills from the samourais. The straight ninjato blade that is shorter was also a result of the proverty in sword crafting of the peasants to build weapons. Often they would use broken katanas and make them into smaller version similar to the wakisachi. So is this all romance to you or can you discover any truth behinf this story. Thank you!
As far as what type of training the shinobi would gravitate towards I think it would be to enhance his special shinobi needs. Climbing lots of climbing, escape, land navigation, survival, tradecraft and espionage, gun powder to name a few, also way more intensive than the average samurai. This training would have to be kept secret.
Anthony- this was a great video! Can you do some documentation research to show ninja lineage to trace some schools to their Chinese roots and documentaries to show Korean roots. Show the international connections. Please and thank you!
Over the years in various places I've read/heard/watched that Shaolin monks/priests taught peasants their secrets, and over the years that developed into "ninjutsu"...
I saw a really bad youtube video on the ninja. It was made by a guy who normally does history videos on the samurai. This time he made one on the ninja and used Anthony Cummings as his "source". The fist is to present the ninja as just a "job" and that some samurai did. This is erroneous, although not entirely false. There are several tactics that are being used by this new wave of ninja imposters. One is to try to use a knowledge of history to cloak oneself in the appearance of being an expert. One problem with this is that they don't really make logical conclusions and even worse they are purposefully misrepresenting history. They try to support their agenda with false assumptions which is where their superficial knowledge of history becomes clear. It is a mistake that is made even by people with college degrees and write books (Cough! Stephen Turnbull. Cough!). Unfortunately many unknowledgeable people are becoming misled and these new ninja imposters are gaining a following. One trick is that they present the argument that the word "ninja" is actually a new word, not commonly used before the 20th century. The common word historically was "shinobi". Their accusation is that anyone claiming to teach "ninjutsu " is teaching something created in the 20th century and not connected to the historical shinobi. What these people forget, or don't know, is that the entire Japanese language went through a lot of changes starting in the late 1800's. Many words have been changed, the kanji simplified, and pronunciations tweaked. English has changed a lot as well. All languages seem to change over time. It's not like a bunch of guys decided to created the word "ninja" and everything relation to that word is fictitious. While it is true that most historical documents, written by people of, or for, the samurai class, commonly used the word "shinobi", there were also a lot of others words used as well. More commonly was just " Iga no mono" "men from Iga." There is a false assumptions that just because the word "ninja" wasn't very common in samurai documents.
Great vid. Not dissimilar to modern day espionage. If a government agency required you to tap a phone or commit espionage it’s all well and good, go round doing that for personal gain and you won’t be getting a medal, you would end up in a cell.
im thinking about buying basically ALL of your books to learn about ninjutsu and samurai... but i dont have enough mony yet... in wich order do you think i should buy them to get the most of it? i was thinking about starting with either "the book of ninja" or "iga and koka ninja skills"
I'm only at 1:26 but I wanted to say that I have heard first hand reports many years ago of soldiers in Vietnam encountering, basically, ninja-lije opponents on night time patrols. With references to Doku poison. Not sure of the truth of this, but wanted to share since you mentioned the early 1900s.
@anthonycummings. Not sure if you have covered this, but I would vary much like to know your opinion on Stephen k. Hayes, and the books he wrote. Sincerely a fan.
HELLO TO ALL NINJA AND SAMURAI ENTHUSIASTS!!! ON BEHALF OF ANTONY CUMMINS I WOULD LIKE TO INFORM YOU THAT HE DOESN'T RECEIVE NOTIFICATIONS FOR REPLIES TO HIS REPLIES. HE ONLY RECEIVES NOTIFICATIONS FOR NEW COMMENTS. IF YOU ARE NEW TO THE CHANNEL ANTONY WOULD LIKE YOU TO START BY WATCHING HIS 2020 DOCUMENTARY.
It´s a difficult question from a historical and cultural perspective, if we´re bound to look at when it became organized as what we´ll call ninjutsu. When it´s said that it began in around 1370 I must admit that I get a little puzzled. And the historical discussions and evidence probably show a lot of ambiguos facts, so it becomes difficult to conclude that this specific event marked the foundation and creation of ninjutsu. The problem is as I see it, that an art that was surrounded with extreme secrecy must be enourmously difficult to investigate. Who came in contact with who? Who influenced who and what? What is fact and what is myth, wishfull thinking or even misdirection, distraction and propaganda? All these factors must make it difficult to be completely objective and also makes the work challenging. As an example there are mentioned at least three founders of ninjutsu. Top-candidate is Daisuke Nishina/Togakure who is said to have lived at around 1100. Nr. 2 is a guy called Shima Kosanta Minamoto No Kanesada which I don´t know why is considered as the founder, since he´s not the first Soke in a lineage but if he IS the founder then why? Because he was a better organizer who´se talent brought the art decades ahead in development? Something about him at least must have lead some "authorities" to say that he is worthy of regarding as founder. Nr. 3 is a man called Ikai who should have lived around 1070 or close to that time-era. He should have come to Japan from a part of China which is now Korea or Korai which is probably the Japanese word for it. All these are before 1370. Even more puzzling is that the scrolls of Gyokko Ryu is said to go back to at least around the year 600 which is long before 1370. The most puzzling is that Soke Hatsumi at Daikomyosai 1990 has said that he has scrolls that can date the origin of ninjutsu back to 2600 years ago which should mean 600 B.C. And at the same time he has agreed with Korean Hwa Rang Do experts, that Ikai is a good candidate for the foundation of ninjutsu. At least that´s what is claimed. To be precise they say that the top-authorities of Hwa Rang Do and Ninjutsu has agreed on this question. Who ever these topauthorities are isn´t said directly, but is it too far to say Hatsumi when it comes to ninjutsu? Of course it could also be the heads of the other X-kans. All this is why I say it´s as old as man himself. But it also makes one think that everyone who has made serious contributions to ninjutsu can be regarded as founder, since it brought the art forward and made it evolve. So in this regard every Soke at least is a new founder, since they were inside of the art so to say...Maybe speculation maybe a broader perspective. Still the question isn´t definitively answered and I think it´s very difficult to say that one particular person is the founder, because so many of political reasons or whatever will claim that they did it or one from their society did it.
Out of curiosity the books you have written along with your team. They have all been translated to english, but are there also versions written in Japanese?. I have some Japanese friends who might be interested whose english isn't all that great.
see my website, click Antony Cummins and look at publications. Also there is a section on their in Japanese if they want to read that. I have published some of the original manuals.
Antony Cummins Thank you for responding. Also a slight error I noticed on your front page. Under the section The Book of the Ninja (The Bansenshukai) You put in the word 'the' as part of the title of your book and it is also the header for that paragraph. It caused me a slight confusion since your book was titled 'The Book of Ninja' without the 'the' as part of the title. I had to google to make sure you weren't referencing an outside source. So I hope this helps and you decide to remove 'the' from that section to avoid future confusion.
@@RavensEagle Hello there! Just want to let you know that Antony doesn't receive notifications for replies to replies so he didn't see your follow up comment. I know this is an old comment but I still wanted to give you the heads up as to why you didn't get a response! He only gets notifications for new comments. The best way to reach him is via his most current uploaded video.
Antony Cummins Cool! one more question: I know you have done individual reviews of books pertaining to ninja and samurai. will you be doing a future video listing of book recommendations for those interested in the subject, who are looking for solid and useful resources or are just wanting to expand their library but don't know where to start?
This is teh number 1 reason i become an author. There were NONE! so when i say mine i mean that. I am writing because i could not find anything worthwhile on ninja. Turnbull has now said all of his are wrong on ninja and he is writing again from the start (out next year maybe). When it comes to ninja we are waiting for others to catch up. So just make sure you have read all my books, all the translations and i will do reviews of any new books that are any good. Turnbull's is next. No one else has done a true history of the ninja yet.
That's was cool. It's scary to think how normal people were being used by the "higher class" through out mid evil times. "Do this and luck will find you" meanwhile they're dead lol
Antony, my understanding is Bushido developed in the 17th century. Unfortunately, I do not have a specific date. But how pervasive was Bushido in the late 1500's? So the logic goes that if shinobi no jutsu originates from China and predate Bushido, how much could they have influenced each other really?
Martin Retherford Not exactly ninjas, but Chinese had secret police during the Ming dynasty called "Jin Yi Wei"(there were several different competing ones), they were imperial guards + secret service, apart from spying on officials and nobles, they do infiltration and collect intelligence during wartime, and they were used against the Japanese during the Korean invasion, there was a guy from the Jin Yi Wei infiltrated to Japan tried to lure some Daimyos into rebelling against hideyoshi
Bushido, without doubt is found way before that, but in the 17th century you get an emphasis on Confucianism and loyalty so yes in that time period it becomes a much more pushed subject to keep the samurai in line. But is very much older. in short it is a code of conduct shared by a society. So it will have been there for most of samurai history. The term is older than the 17th cent though.
I do expect that the ninja was a unique cultural interpretation of the arts that came from China. However, When something enters a system that is foreign, it is changed and also changes the system that is entered. So my reframed question is, what evidence do you have that supports a position of Bushido existing in any context in the beggining of the Ninja age?
I have a very old date for the term bushido and a few examples of the term in the end of the1500's. Not published yet but i will do. I have nothing in the 1300's yet. But the term bushido goes back a long way. The idea of chivalry is there. I will publish on this at some point.
If a person not Japanese learn the ways of the Shinobi and samurai and become masters. Then say the government crashes or tries to rule as a dictator in some way to start a civil war. Would you not be using these skills then. Unconventional and conventional warfare. You used the same arts of evasion or deception all the guerrilla warfare tactics and survival tactics that they did even if you modify it to fit today like they would have. Would that not mean we or there could be Shinobi then. If that ever happens all those skills of the Shinobi will be needed. So training in it is not just role play (I’m kinda speaking on another video you did) it would be skills needed to survive rather from a lost country or tracking and survival skills to eat. Everything would be needed. All training will and would be needed. To me this would be the ultimate prepper training though I’m not claiming to be one.
This really sounds like a converted ninja, trying to live up to samurai standards. When you finally describe the author of this work, it becomes obvious to me that this person was a Koga member who worked under Ieyasu, for the Koga did work for him as a secret police, at the later end of the period, sometime after Nobunaga's death. This is known. Before Nobunaga's death, this would not happen. At least not publicly. Behaving like samurai was likely a condition for their survival within his ranks. If the shogun deems it, who are the samurai but to obey his command in allowing them in the castle walls as house keepers?
Tbh I was never really interested in japanese military history or the samurai or ninja until I ran across your channel a while back; too much stupid shit to dig through to bother for what otherwise would be a mild interest. I'm seriously considering that book now
That is perfect! That is the reason i do this. It is so interesting and yet all you ever here is how to make a katana, samurai are noble, it was so boring. Glad you are enjoying it.
Your research definitely brings the Samurai and Ninja in the correct historical light.
Back in the early 90's, i read an article in Black Belt Magazine.
It says ninja came from a clan in China called Lin Kuei. Some one of the clan fled to Japan and with the knowledge he had from Lin Kuei made his own clan and fighting art. Sounds like the Lore of Mortal Kombat.
Looks like the developers of the game did their home work
According to a Japanese Ninjutsu Historian Ninjutsu came from the highest peak Himalayas of Tibet.
Outstanding!
This is new information about bushido for me.. 👍
It's important to note that the Tokugawa utilized shinobi extensively. Their view on how it fit into the context of bushido could differ from other clans.
I recall reading an account from the late Ashikaga shogunate about early shinobi activity. At the time there was a sort of trade union that had developed in the area around Lake Biwa. From my understanding it was operating not only as an economic entity, but in a political sense to a certain degree. This of course was something unheard of in a feudal system.
The area was rich in resources, which is the reason for the concentration of artisan. The Ashikaga obviously would want to acquire those resources for themselves, and proceeded to invade. The trade union of course didn't have a standing army, definitely not one which could stand up to professional samurai. As it turns out, however, the shogun's forces were met with unexpected resistance. The locals used guerilla tactics, presumably learned from their neighbors in Iga / Koga. It's uncertain though if they actually received shinobi assistance, or if they in fact fled to the Iga / Koga region after the conflict to found the shinobi clans which would come to be highly renown.
Not sure if you have heard of this account or not. It's rather interesting, but I've only ever seen information on it once. It may be something to look into.
the more i research ninja the more its like chasing fairies
Just picture the ancient japanese CIA and you got it. I bought his book on ninja as an avid spycraft enthusiast and it's pretty much the same back then as it is now varying mostly to adapt to the unique environment and politics of the time and place. If you like networks of secret agents you should totally buy his book.
Thank you for correcting my notions about ninjutsu
They used to fight just like samurais? So how did samurais used to fight? Aiki-jujutsu? Why isn't it very known nowadays?
I will do a vdeo
Good lesson! Learning so much history and meaning. Thank you!
You are welcome
Antony Cummins any chance audio books will be available?
Nice video mate. I was attached to a intelligence unit in the army for 2 years, its nice to see subterfuge/intelligence hasn't really changed much (fundamentals)
i agree i think its the same as ever
Hi, great video. You said Samurai would spy but they hate to lie. Isn't lying almost implicit in espionage? I guess there are other methods but it seems like a big aspect of espionage would be lying about who you are or what your intentions are.
Yes, thats why being a shinobi is difficult
3:39 Halo games comes to mind... those big split faced aliens. Forget the name... think it was the 3rd game... now i feel old 😆
I agree with your lecture. BUT BRO, what’s up with the tight polo?
I have a question for you Mrs. Anthony Cummin. I heard about a romantic story of some ninja clan. And I want to know if there is any validity you can find in this story. Basically it goes like this. Maybe not all the ninjas, but some ninja clan would have been at first a resistance or rebellion against the Shoguns oppression. Some ronins would have joined with some villagers and developped underground methods corresponding to the shinobi to do rebellious actions. In that they also gained many martial skills from the samourais. The straight ninjato blade that is shorter was also a result of the proverty in sword crafting of the peasants to build weapons. Often they would use broken katanas and make them into smaller version similar to the wakisachi. So is this all romance to you or can you discover any truth behinf this story. Thank you!
As far as what type of training the shinobi would gravitate towards I think it would be to enhance his special shinobi needs. Climbing lots of climbing, escape, land navigation, survival, tradecraft and espionage, gun powder to name a few, also way more intensive than the average samurai. This training would have to be kept secret.
Anthony- this was a great video! Can you do some documentation research to show ninja lineage to trace some schools to their Chinese roots and documentaries to show Korean roots. Show the international connections. Please and thank you!
Over the years in various places I've read/heard/watched that Shaolin monks/priests taught peasants their secrets, and over the years that developed into "ninjutsu"...
I saw a really bad youtube video on the ninja. It was made by a guy who normally does history videos on the samurai. This time he made one on the ninja and used Anthony Cummings as his "source". The fist is to present the ninja as just a "job" and that some samurai did. This is erroneous, although not entirely false. There are several tactics that are being used by this new wave of ninja imposters. One is to try to use a knowledge of history to cloak oneself in the appearance of being an expert. One problem with this is that they don't really make logical conclusions and even worse they are purposefully misrepresenting history. They try to support their agenda with false assumptions which is where their superficial knowledge of history becomes clear. It is a mistake that is made even by people with college degrees and write books (Cough! Stephen Turnbull. Cough!). Unfortunately many unknowledgeable people are becoming misled and these new ninja imposters are gaining a following. One trick is that they present the argument that the word "ninja" is actually a new word, not commonly used before the 20th century. The common word historically was "shinobi". Their accusation is that anyone claiming to teach "ninjutsu " is teaching something created in the 20th century and not connected to the historical shinobi. What these people forget, or don't know, is that the entire Japanese language went through a lot of changes starting in the late 1800's. Many words have been changed, the kanji simplified, and pronunciations tweaked. English has changed a lot as well. All languages seem to change over time. It's not like a bunch of guys decided to created the word "ninja" and everything relation to that word is fictitious. While it is true that most historical documents, written by people of, or for, the samurai class, commonly used the word "shinobi", there were also a lot of others words used as well. More commonly was just " Iga no mono" "men from Iga." There is a false assumptions that just because the word "ninja" wasn't very common in samurai documents.
Sorry but I consider Natori Ryu to be just another Ninja cult.
Great vid. Not dissimilar to modern day espionage. If a government agency required you to tap a phone or commit espionage it’s all well and good, go round doing that for personal gain and you won’t be getting a medal, you would end up in a cell.
Pointman.. exacktly 😀👍
Our master I advise you to train the candle who strengthens the sight to become sexually strong
Hoguromo of course
Great video as always, thank you mate
Cheers Milan
im thinking about buying basically ALL of your books to learn about ninjutsu and samurai... but i dont have enough mony yet... in wich order do you think i should buy them to get the most of it? i was thinking about starting with either "the book of ninja" or "iga and koka ninja skills"
I'm only at 1:26 but I wanted to say that I have heard first hand reports many years ago of soldiers in Vietnam encountering, basically, ninja-lije opponents on night time patrols. With references to Doku poison. Not sure of the truth of this, but wanted to share since you mentioned the early 1900s.
@anthonycummings. Not sure if you have covered this, but I would vary much like to know your opinion on Stephen k. Hayes, and the books he wrote. Sincerely a fan.
HELLO TO ALL NINJA AND SAMURAI ENTHUSIASTS!!! ON BEHALF OF ANTONY CUMMINS I WOULD LIKE TO INFORM YOU THAT HE DOESN'T RECEIVE NOTIFICATIONS FOR REPLIES TO HIS REPLIES. HE ONLY RECEIVES NOTIFICATIONS FOR NEW COMMENTS. IF YOU ARE NEW TO THE CHANNEL ANTONY WOULD LIKE YOU TO START BY WATCHING HIS 2020 DOCUMENTARY.
what are thoughts on Taijutu?
It´s a difficult
question from a historical and cultural perspective, if we´re bound
to look at when it became organized as what we´ll call ninjutsu.
When it´s said that it began in around 1370 I must admit that I get
a little puzzled. And the historical discussions and evidence
probably show a lot of ambiguos facts, so it becomes difficult to
conclude that this specific event marked the foundation and creation
of ninjutsu. The problem is as I see it, that an art that was
surrounded with extreme secrecy must be enourmously difficult to
investigate. Who came in contact with who? Who influenced who and
what? What is fact and what is myth, wishfull thinking or even
misdirection, distraction and propaganda? All these factors must make
it difficult to be completely objective and also makes the work
challenging. As an example there are mentioned at least three
founders of ninjutsu. Top-candidate is
Daisuke Nishina/Togakure who is said to have lived at around
1100. Nr. 2 is a guy called Shima Kosanta Minamoto No Kanesada
which I don´t know why is considered as the founder, since he´s not
the first Soke in a lineage but if he IS the founder then why?
Because he was a better organizer who´se talent brought
the art decades ahead in development? Something about him at
least must have lead some "authorities" to say that he
is worthy of regarding as founder. Nr. 3 is a man called Ikai
who should have lived around 1070 or close to that time-era. He
should have come to Japan from a part of China which is now
Korea or Korai which is probably the Japanese word for
it. All these are before 1370. Even more puzzling is that
the scrolls of Gyokko Ryu is said to go back to at
least around the year 600 which is long before 1370.
The most puzzling is that Soke Hatsumi at Daikomyosai 1990 has said
that he has scrolls that can date the origin of ninjutsu
back to 2600 years ago which should mean 600 B.C. And at
the same time he has agreed with Korean Hwa Rang Do experts, that
Ikai is a good candidate for the foundation of ninjutsu. At least
that´s what is claimed. To be precise they say that the
top-authorities of Hwa Rang Do and Ninjutsu has agreed on this
question. Who ever these topauthorities are isn´t said directly, but
is it too far to say Hatsumi when it comes to ninjutsu? Of course it
could also be the heads of the other X-kans. All this is why I
say it´s as old as man himself. But it also makes one think that
everyone who has made serious contributions to ninjutsu can
be regarded as founder, since it brought the art forward and made it
evolve. So in this regard every Soke at least is a new founder, since
they were inside of the art so to say...Maybe speculation maybe a
broader perspective. Still the question isn´t definitively answered
and I think it´s very difficult to say that one particular person is
the founder, because so many of political reasons or whatever will
claim that they did it or one from their society did it.
Antony doesn't even know that bjj came from Judo. He thinks it came from Fusen Ryu.
Out of curiosity the books you have written along with your team.
They have all been translated to english, but are there also versions written in Japanese?. I have some Japanese friends who might be interested whose english isn't all that great.
see my website, click Antony Cummins and look at publications. Also there is a section on their in Japanese if they want to read that. I have published some of the original manuals.
Antony Cummins Thank you for responding.
Also a slight error I noticed on your front page.
Under the section
The Book of the Ninja (The Bansenshukai)
You put in the word 'the' as part of the title of your book and it is also the header for that paragraph.
It caused me a slight confusion since your book was titled 'The Book of Ninja' without the 'the' as part of the title.
I had to google to make sure you weren't referencing an outside source.
So I hope this helps and you decide to remove 'the' from that section to avoid future confusion.
@@RavensEagle Hello there! Just want to let you know that Antony doesn't receive notifications for replies to replies so he didn't see your follow up comment. I know this is an old comment but I still wanted to give you the heads up as to why you didn't get a response! He only gets notifications for new comments. The best way to reach him is via his most current uploaded video.
You probably have covered it, but have you ever read the book "NINJA ATTACK!" by Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt?
I liked the book. Too much of the fantasy but still worth owning.
Antony Cummins Cool! one more question: I know you have done individual reviews of books pertaining to ninja and samurai. will you be doing a future video listing of book recommendations for those interested in the subject, who are looking for solid and useful resources or are just wanting to expand their library but don't know where to start?
This is teh number 1 reason i become an author. There were NONE! so when i say mine i mean that. I am writing because i could not find anything worthwhile on ninja. Turnbull has now said all of his are wrong on ninja and he is writing again from the start (out next year maybe). When it comes to ninja we are waiting for others to catch up. So just make sure you have read all my books, all the translations and i will do reviews of any new books that are any good. Turnbull's is next. No one else has done a true history of the ninja yet.
Antony Cummins Thank you, I will! Keep up the good work! 😁
Pfffft! Everyone knows ninjutsu was invented by Jin Sakai during the mongol invasion of the isle of Tsushima!
That's was cool. It's scary to think how normal people were being used by the "higher class" through out mid evil times. "Do this and luck will find you" meanwhile they're dead lol
we are still mentally manipulated
did 忍 use si ,the 3 prung knife
Jonin Machin you mean the sai? Its from okinawa i think... It could be used to infiltrate in okinawa or to impersonate an okinawan person...
Antony, my understanding is Bushido developed in the 17th century. Unfortunately, I do not have a specific date. But how pervasive was Bushido in the late 1500's? So the logic goes that if shinobi no jutsu originates from China and predate Bushido, how much could they have influenced each other really?
Martin Retherford
Not exactly ninjas, but Chinese had secret police during the Ming dynasty called "Jin Yi Wei"(there were several different competing ones), they were imperial guards + secret service, apart from spying on officials and nobles, they do infiltration and collect intelligence during wartime, and they were used against the Japanese during the Korean invasion, there was a guy from the Jin Yi Wei infiltrated to Japan tried to lure some Daimyos into rebelling against hideyoshi
Bushido, without doubt is found way before that, but in the 17th century you get an emphasis on Confucianism and loyalty so yes in that time period it becomes a much more pushed subject to keep the samurai in line. But is very much older. in short it is a code of conduct shared by a society. So it will have been there for most of samurai history. The term is older than the 17th cent though.
I do expect that the ninja was a unique cultural interpretation of the arts that came from China. However, When something enters a system that is foreign, it is changed and also changes the system that is entered. So my reframed question is, what evidence do you have that supports a position of Bushido existing in any context in the beggining of the Ninja age?
I have a very old date for the term bushido and a few examples of the term in the end of the1500's. Not published yet but i will do. I have nothing in the 1300's yet. But the term bushido goes back a long way. The idea of chivalry is there. I will publish on this at some point.
If a person not Japanese learn the ways of the Shinobi and samurai and become masters. Then say the government crashes or tries to rule as a dictator in some way to start a civil war. Would you not be using these skills then. Unconventional and conventional warfare. You used the same arts of evasion or deception all the guerrilla warfare tactics and survival tactics that they did even if you modify it to fit today like they would have. Would that not mean we or there could be Shinobi then. If that ever happens all those skills of the Shinobi will be needed. So training in it is not just role play (I’m kinda speaking on another video you did) it would be skills needed to survive rather from a lost country or tracking and survival skills to eat. Everything would be needed. All training will and would be needed. To me this would be the ultimate prepper training though I’m not claiming to be one.
This really sounds like a converted ninja, trying to live up to samurai standards. When you finally describe the author of this work, it becomes obvious to me that this person was a Koga member who worked under Ieyasu, for the Koga did work for him as a secret police, at the later end of the period, sometime after Nobunaga's death. This is known.
Before Nobunaga's death, this would not happen. At least not publicly. Behaving like samurai was likely a condition for their survival within his ranks.
If the shogun deems it, who are the samurai but to obey his command in allowing them in the castle walls as house keepers?
Ashida Kim
Actually the truth is probably that it´s as old as man himself allthough it didn´t have the name shinobi or any other known name as we know it today.
Yes agreed, but we are looking at ninjutsu as a phenomenon, so when did it come etc. But i agree with you.
When one has to be that specific the question becomes extremely difficult...
Ninja originate from South china.
Prove it. I really don't know.
Tbh I was never really interested in japanese military history or the samurai or ninja until I ran across your channel a while back; too much stupid shit to dig through to bother for what otherwise would be a mild interest. I'm seriously considering that book now
That is perfect! That is the reason i do this. It is so interesting and yet all you ever here is how to make a katana, samurai are noble, it was so boring. Glad you are enjoying it.
Are you deliberately pronouncing 術 improperly to cater for English audience?
How would you say it?