It’s a bit odd hearing them go from complaining that modern being only about the new cards into immediately laughing about how few cards from the new set will see play. I would be happy to see a new set only slightly affect modern.
The point is that MH2 broke modern. Rather than modern being a collection of the past 20ish years of Magic cards, the only viable cards are essentially MH1 and primarily MH2.
@@Samst0ndon’t worry, “go play outside” is an insane comment for someone watching this video to leave. Clearly they have some interest in discussion about Modern.
I don't think you have to choose between strong answers and strong threats. The goal of game design is that the answers and threats are comparable and create interaction points. Imbalances between the two is OK, pauper is a great example, but they just need to interact with each other in satisfying ways. Balance between the two is the goal, not necessarily that they're perfectly balanced. Sometimes we can go through phases with Fatal Push in standard and sometimes we can go through phases with Murder-With-Set-Mechanic in standard.
If nothing else sees play in Modern, Rosie Cotton of South Lane, Orcish Bowmasters, and Boromir will see play, but I think Samwise Gamgee is the sleeper of the set. I believe Samwise Gamgee will push Asmo Food over the top into tier 1 in Modern. The card is naturally good as a way to feed the deck food, it makes Cat-Oven into a food positive interaction, and it grinds advantage by buying back Asmo's/Cookbooks/Nettlecyst/Ovens and *Urza's Saga* since Saga is historic because of course it is, but it also gives the deck a backdoor three card combo with Cauldron Familiar, Samwise Gamgee, and whatever the best free sacrifice outlet for the deck is [likely a cheap creature like Viscera Seer or Carrion Feeder since the deck already wants Finale of Devastation] since the cat entering makes the food to replay it as long as you can kill the cat. BG Food is already a passable if unexciting Modern deck and between Goose and fetches the deck can easily splash white for Sam.
About answers: I think there is a difference between a good answer and an aggressive answer. Good answers are still a dead card if there's no target for them, and the aggressive ones are threats in themselves, and answer as a bonus. For example, RIP is a great answer, but it doesn't do anything else, while graveyard trespasser is a good threat that takes cards from the graveyard as a bonus. And I think aggressive answers are bad: Instead of thinking if you want to progress your board or answer your opponent, you do it all at once, pushing yourself forward and your opponent back. Invoke is an aggressive answer: you can cast it into an empty board and you'll be happy about it.
it depends on how much credence you give the food community but we're all stoked about samwise gamgee so if you ever run into an asmo food player again, expect samwise to be the build around this time
I love Seth’s general positivity and optimism, but I also think the ‘glass half full’ perspective is a more helpful view of any card with even remote or fringe modern possibilities. I think we take a dismissive view of new cards at our peril, and that’s been born out time and again. Maybe the more competitive minded guys could take a more generous view of certain cards. A lot of us modern players aren’t looking for tier one, we’re looking to make a splash with something unique, even if 3-2, 4-1 is the best we can ever hope to do
There is a W6, T3feri, Nissa, Omnath, Elesh Norn deck that can utilize Delightful Halfling pretty well. Dingo’s 4c list that he keeps top 8ing with comes to mind
For once, the LotR power level is on the players. They did originally say it was "modern legal", and then we the player base assumed the worst and thought it was going to be Modern horizons 3 because, well we don't trust wizards.
It honestly reminds me of chatter from before Khans of Tarkir was printed that interpreted R&D comments about reducing the amount of shuffle effects to be a blood covenant never to reprint fetchlands. They announce something that is true, people hear that and decide it means something completely unrelated, and then they repeat the thing they decided it meant as though that was word for word the original announcement.
Yep but more than that, I’m so done with people like Seth and friends constantly downplaying non standard sets not having an impact on other formats and constantly calling everything a commander card. Like almost every time people say this, they end up horribly wrong like how people legitimately believed hoogak was a gimmick that would never see modern play.
@@vinnythewebsurfer If you go back and watch the preview video, Seth said that "This card to me seems pretty busted" when talking about Hogaak's implications in Modern.
I think people talking about this set need to take a look over to AspiringSpikes food decks, as there is a lot of very interesting tools for Food that this deck provides. Samwise Gamgee with Cauldron Familiar is an infinite combo with a sac outlet. Even by himself, Sam provides a lot of Food for cards like Asmor, Feasting Troll King, and similar cards to work with. The Shire is a pretty interesting, low opportunity cost way to just passively generate Food. There are also some less flat out crazy cards that are worth experimenting with like Peregrin Took can turn Food into card advantage, though he is a little slow. Delighted Halfling is a new interesting mana dork for legendary creatures. All in all, I want to see what Food does in Modern by the end of this set. And even if Food doesn't see play now, Eldraine is around the corner.
Maybe Boromir can revive death and taxes in Modern. It's a great hatebear against the invoke elementals and other cheated cards, plus a way to defend your board/power through with lethal. Not that this would be enough for the deck to come back, but at least it's something.
Flowering of the white tree is actually no joke great with Kari zev 4/2 menace and a 3/4 first strike is not bad at all, almost a build your own rhinos
You know what blows my mind? Wedding announcement, the first time I read it, I thought it was shit. I still read it and think it’s bad. But it’s somehow still one of the best cards in standard
54:59 The Halfling creature type was introduced in the first D&D set, in preparation for this set. In LOTR, halfling is the term for a small humanoid, which includes hobbit and stoor hobbit (what Gollum was when he got the ring), among others.
Personally, i enjoy the lengthened standard schedule. Mostly because i dont grind arena religiously, so having my cards and decks enjoying a longer lifespan is pleasant. Also, i rhink it encourages more investment into best of three decks.
Fable vs Invoke is the definitive arms race example. The weird thing about them is they kind of checked each other: Fable soaked up 2 invoke modes so was good invoke protection, while invoke was almost the only card (farewell) that could answer fable and the token in one card. The problem with Invoke/Fable is almost every other card in the format was worse with them around because they were playing 1-for-1s while Fable and Invoke were 2- or 3-for-1s. It’s the problem with snowball threats - you need snowball answers like Invoke or Meatball. Or Fury/Solitude in modern which are answers and threats/wincon. These kinds of trends will keep happening so long as WoTC keeps powering up threats.
Crim and Richard are being silly. I'm with you Seth I think Flowering of the White Tree is great. First of all the going rate for anthems is 3 mana and the rate for Trumpet Blast is 3 mana. This is both a better trumpet blast and a better anthem for 2 mana. You only need 1 of these in play to win if you're going wide with legends. Since when do you need 2x trumpet blasts to win? The first one should be enough. The argument about Thalia is a also pretty silly, you don't have to play Thalia in your mox amber white tree deck lol. 6 years ago yeah there wasn't enough legends but these days with how much they push legendary creatures for edh I think the legend deck is going to be legit.
I think it is starting to show that Crim and Richard don't play modern that much. Modern is not just monkey decks and unfair decks and nothing else can be played.
I think Seth is on to something with the Flowering of the White Tree. Drop Talia, let Fury and Solitude eat up the extra legendaries sitting on your hand and we're cooking
We saw Liliana of the veil get reprinted in standard and not do much do you think jtms could be reprinted into a standard set and have a similar showing
Orcish bowmasters Sheoldred Narset Day's undoing Maybe? I'd have loved to try this in pioneer as it's a bit too weak for modern. I personally love Reprieve.
Absolutely cards from the set will see play....which ones and how widespread? That's a bit harder to answer....but think about it, since WotCs FIRE philosophy fully kicked in, has there been a single set released that was modern legal that doesn't have at least 1 or 2 if not more cards seeing play in the modern format? If Adventures in Forgotten Realms (a relatively underpowered standard set for modern times) has multiple cards seeing regular play in Modern, I think it's quite literally not possible for this set to be a bust in that regard.
While I don't think this set is as powerful as Modern Horizons 1 & 2, which I'm fine with. I do think there will be cards that see play in Modern and for the commons, possibly Pauper.
I shifted from having fun playing jank-Jund decks, to hating myself for HAVING to play mono-blue tempo to keep up with the Jace - Farewell control meta that’s taken over the format. I really think the game has gone too far off the rails in favor of exile and counter effects to control the cards that probably more than half the player-base enjoy playing more.
Maybe wizards will finally learn this time. When control is good the format is good. Aggro jumps in to stop control, so mid range comes back to beat aggro then u have the rps formula. The problem before was control has been bad for to long
I love the fact that Lord of the Rings is a Flavor set first, Commander set second and Modern set third. We reaaally didn't need Modern Horizons 3: Lord of the Rings.
about standard: the way I see, the three year rotation wil let wotc raise standard power levels, and make standard kinda rotate itself due to the new powerful cards
I certainly don’t think this is the case. The standard power level shift has *already* happened imo, they’ve been pretty consistent with the power level of standard sets in the short term and any sets included in the now extended rotation cycle were developed before this change was made, so at most this decision was influenced by upcoming sets rather than the other way around (otherwise we would have heard about it last rotation I’d imagine) the only way I could see that happening is if wotc suddenly announced “fire design 2: oko was fine actually” which would be frankly completely insane and I cannot see happening in the next decade. but I guess you never know.
Only Hobbits call themselves Hobbits. Barely anyone else in Middle Earth knows what a Hobbit is. Most of the people have only ever heard myths about halflings. So to most of Middle Earth Hobbits are halflings. Creature type seems to fit to me
This set really does seem like it shouldve been pioneer legal and they just got the names of the formats mixed up. Power level is really good for pioneer, but basically useless in modern. And i am dreading the day they release pioneer horizons because thats the day the format dies imo
This feels like one of the most confused sets in years. The power level is standard at best, and not even that high compared to certain recent standard sets like return to kamigawa, etc. Why specifically make it modern legal then instead of the usual legacy/commander? Speaking of, the set definitely has a strong focus on legendary creatures/legendary permanents matter, but barely more than the average standard set nowadays, considering that standard legal sets are practically made draft first, commander second, and then finally for actual standard. So clearly, it's supposed to be selling on flavor and the ip, after all, it's the most top-down designed set of all time, but sooooo much of the flavor is outright TERRIBLE. I could be here all day just picking apart the implementation of the ring, from the fact that there are multiple legendary cards depicting the ring, and I'm half expecting there to be at least one more depicting it in gollum/isildur's possession, to literally everything with how the temptation mechanic works and the fact it doesn't tempt you at all. Very confused set.
I hope none see modern play. Hasbro needs to stop doing this universe beyond crap. So desperate for profit. Even with the current universe beyond sets they're still in the negative. Obviously it's not working so why keep trying.
Standard players: HORRAY WERE SAVED! Thank you!
Blue control: oh I wouldn’t say “saved”. More like… under new management.
give this man an award
It’s a bit odd hearing them go from complaining that modern being only about the new cards into immediately laughing about how few cards from the new set will see play. I would be happy to see a new set only slightly affect modern.
The point is that MH2 broke modern. Rather than modern being a collection of the past 20ish years of Magic cards, the only viable cards are essentially MH1 and primarily MH2.
Relax it's not that serious. Go play outside buddy.
But then my card sleeves might get dirty 😳
@@Samst0ndon’t worry, “go play outside” is an insane comment for someone watching this video to leave. Clearly they have some interest in discussion about Modern.
@@Samst0n but seriously though. I wish I had sleeves back in gradeschool when we did play outside. Lol
I don't think you have to choose between strong answers and strong threats. The goal of game design is that the answers and threats are comparable and create interaction points. Imbalances between the two is OK, pauper is a great example, but they just need to interact with each other in satisfying ways. Balance between the two is the goal, not necessarily that they're perfectly balanced. Sometimes we can go through phases with Fatal Push in standard and sometimes we can go through phases with Murder-With-Set-Mechanic in standard.
If nothing else sees play in Modern, Rosie Cotton of South Lane, Orcish Bowmasters, and Boromir will see play, but I think Samwise Gamgee is the sleeper of the set. I believe Samwise Gamgee will push Asmo Food over the top into tier 1 in Modern. The card is naturally good as a way to feed the deck food, it makes Cat-Oven into a food positive interaction, and it grinds advantage by buying back Asmo's/Cookbooks/Nettlecyst/Ovens and *Urza's Saga* since Saga is historic because of course it is, but it also gives the deck a backdoor three card combo with Cauldron Familiar, Samwise Gamgee, and whatever the best free sacrifice outlet for the deck is [likely a cheap creature like Viscera Seer or Carrion Feeder since the deck already wants Finale of Devastation] since the cat entering makes the food to replay it as long as you can kill the cat. BG Food is already a passable if unexciting Modern deck and between Goose and fetches the deck can easily splash white for Sam.
About answers: I think there is a difference between a good answer and an aggressive answer. Good answers are still a dead card if there's no target for them, and the aggressive ones are threats in themselves, and answer as a bonus. For example, RIP is a great answer, but it doesn't do anything else, while graveyard trespasser is a good threat that takes cards from the graveyard as a bonus. And I think aggressive answers are bad: Instead of thinking if you want to progress your board or answer your opponent, you do it all at once, pushing yourself forward and your opponent back. Invoke is an aggressive answer: you can cast it into an empty board and you'll be happy about it.
it depends on how much credence you give the food community but we're all stoked about samwise gamgee so if you ever run into an asmo food player again, expect samwise to be the build around this time
24:00 Yes! This set *does not* feel as powerful as I was expecting, at all!
Yes, they changed the marketing
@@LarsIsReal Well, they forgot to change the pricing. Whoops!
I love Seth’s general positivity and optimism, but I also think the ‘glass half full’ perspective is a more helpful view of any card with even remote or fringe modern possibilities. I think we take a dismissive view of new cards at our peril, and that’s been born out time and again. Maybe the more competitive minded guys could take a more generous view of certain cards. A lot of us modern players aren’t looking for tier one, we’re looking to make a splash with something unique, even if 3-2, 4-1 is the best we can ever hope to do
There is a W6, T3feri, Nissa, Omnath, Elesh Norn deck that can utilize Delightful Halfling pretty well. Dingo’s 4c list that he keeps top 8ing with comes to mind
For once, the LotR power level is on the players. They did originally say it was "modern legal", and then we the player base assumed the worst and thought it was going to be Modern horizons 3 because, well we don't trust wizards.
It honestly reminds me of chatter from before Khans of Tarkir was printed that interpreted R&D comments about reducing the amount of shuffle effects to be a blood covenant never to reprint fetchlands. They announce something that is true, people hear that and decide it means something completely unrelated, and then they repeat the thing they decided it meant as though that was word for word the original announcement.
Yep but more than that, I’m so done with people like Seth and friends constantly downplaying non standard sets not having an impact on other formats and constantly calling everything a commander card. Like almost every time people say this, they end up horribly wrong like how people legitimately believed hoogak was a gimmick that would never see modern play.
WOTC said a while back that the set's power level wouldn't be geared towards Modern.
@@vinnythewebsurfer If you go back and watch the preview video, Seth said that "This card to me seems pretty busted" when talking about Hogaak's implications in Modern.
I think people talking about this set need to take a look over to AspiringSpikes food decks, as there is a lot of very interesting tools for Food that this deck provides. Samwise Gamgee with Cauldron Familiar is an infinite combo with a sac outlet. Even by himself, Sam provides a lot of Food for cards like Asmor, Feasting Troll King, and similar cards to work with. The Shire is a pretty interesting, low opportunity cost way to just passively generate Food. There are also some less flat out crazy cards that are worth experimenting with like Peregrin Took can turn Food into card advantage, though he is a little slow. Delighted Halfling is a new interesting mana dork for legendary creatures.
All in all, I want to see what Food does in Modern by the end of this set. And even if Food doesn't see play now, Eldraine is around the corner.
Love when the video cast is uploaded earlier in the day!
Hey! The yt vid showed up before the podcast feed. That never happens
Maybe Boromir can revive death and taxes in Modern. It's a great hatebear against the invoke elementals and other cheated cards, plus a way to defend your board/power through with lethal. Not that this would be enough for the deck to come back, but at least it's something.
Flowering of the white tree is actually no joke great with Kari zev 4/2 menace and a 3/4 first strike is not bad at all, almost a build your own rhinos
You know what blows my mind? Wedding announcement, the first time I read it, I thought it was shit. I still read it and think it’s bad. But it’s somehow still one of the best cards in standard
54:59 The Halfling creature type was introduced in the first D&D set, in preparation for this set. In LOTR, halfling is the term for a small humanoid, which includes hobbit and stoor hobbit (what Gollum was when he got the ring), among others.
Personally, i enjoy the lengthened standard schedule. Mostly because i dont grind arena religiously, so having my cards and decks enjoying a longer lifespan is pleasant. Also, i rhink it encourages more investment into best of three decks.
Fable vs Invoke is the definitive arms race example. The weird thing about them is they kind of checked each other: Fable soaked up 2 invoke modes so was good invoke protection, while invoke was almost the only card (farewell) that could answer fable and the token in one card. The problem with Invoke/Fable is almost every other card in the format was worse with them around because they were playing 1-for-1s while Fable and Invoke were 2- or 3-for-1s. It’s the problem with snowball threats - you need snowball answers like Invoke or Meatball. Or Fury/Solitude in modern which are answers and threats/wincon. These kinds of trends will keep happening so long as WoTC keeps powering up threats.
I'm looking forward to trying orcish bowmasters with burning inquiry, wheels and waste not
Crim and Richard are being silly. I'm with you Seth I think Flowering of the White Tree is great. First of all the going rate for anthems is 3 mana and the rate for Trumpet Blast is 3 mana. This is both a better trumpet blast and a better anthem for 2 mana. You only need 1 of these in play to win if you're going wide with legends. Since when do you need 2x trumpet blasts to win? The first one should be enough.
The argument about Thalia is a also pretty silly, you don't have to play Thalia in your mox amber white tree deck lol. 6 years ago yeah there wasn't enough legends but these days with how much they push legendary creatures for edh I think the legend deck is going to be legit.
I think it is starting to show that Crim and Richard don't play modern that much. Modern is not just monkey decks and unfair decks and nothing else can be played.
Everyone needs a monkey I guess
In competitive play. I only see monkey's and unfair decks...
What band did Crim go see? Can’t make it out. Something like No pressure? Compression? Oppression?
Nice! Video podcast on mondayyy! 🙌🙌🙌
I think Seth is on to something with the Flowering of the White Tree. Drop Talia, let Fury and Solitude eat up the extra legendaries sitting on your hand and we're cooking
I've been going hard into orzhov midrange, and it's been pretty nice.
I am thinking about slotting in the Orcish Bowmasters in a Ob Nixilis, Captive Kingpin EDH deck I am building
Flowering of the white tree + force of virtue is a sweet match
They refer to hobbits as Halflings in the book. Its where the term came from fantasy wise I believe.
Samwise gamgee combos with cauldron familiar and a sac outlet. Worth mentioning
We saw Liliana of the veil get reprinted in standard and not do much do you think jtms could be reprinted into a standard set and have a similar showing
Delighted Halfling and samwise will probably see play in asmo food. How much play? TBD. Samwise does combo with sac outlet + cauldron familiar
Orcish bowmasters
Sheoldred
Narset
Day's undoing
Maybe?
I'd have loved to try this in pioneer as it's a bit too weak for modern.
I personally love Reprieve.
Richard's right, I'm playing Diablo
Absolutely cards from the set will see play....which ones and how widespread? That's a bit harder to answer....but think about it, since WotCs FIRE philosophy fully kicked in, has there been a single set released that was modern legal that doesn't have at least 1 or 2 if not more cards seeing play in the modern format?
If Adventures in Forgotten Realms (a relatively underpowered standard set for modern times) has multiple cards seeing regular play in Modern, I think it's quite literally not possible for this set to be a bust in that regard.
Yea. But thats fine I guess. 2 or 3 cards seeing play is the ideal per set imo. 0 is bust and more then 4 or 5 is just too much.
If Stern Scolding was printed sooner, would it have been the answer to keep Lurrus in check?
I think No.. the problem with companions is variance. You will always have your companion available to summon…
Once stern scolding takes over the format Tarmagoyf is back on top!
While I don't think this set is as powerful as Modern Horizons 1 & 2, which I'm fine with. I do think there will be cards that see play in Modern and for the commons, possibly Pauper.
Not sure if it’s mentioned but samwise is infinite with cat and sac outlet.
Holy crap Monday podcast up on Monday? Is it 2019?
Rosie and scurry oak with the Mom package
T1 Giver or That New Mana Dork T2 Soldier MoM then T3 Either Coco or One combo piece.
Wait wait wait so banning the top deck out of existence really did make the 2nd deck the best deck?! Who wouldve thunk?!
Well if things continue to be meh I will have to rotate between MTG Diablo 4, Street fighter 6 and LoZ:TotK 😅
I shifted from having fun playing jank-Jund decks, to hating myself for HAVING to play mono-blue tempo to keep up with the Jace - Farewell control meta that’s taken over the format. I really think the game has gone too far off the rails in favor of exile and counter effects to control the cards that probably more than half the player-base enjoy playing more.
Pippin is Uncle of Runes .
Or Pippin of Runes.
Maybe wizards will finally learn this time. When control is good the format is good. Aggro jumps in to stop control, so mid range comes back to beat aggro then u have the rps formula. The problem before was control has been bad for to long
now that the standard banlist is out maybe I can play my deck that copies invoke despair several times! Oh wait...
Remember everyone saying The Lord of the rings set is going to be pushed
Riverdale?? So who's hotter: Eowyn or Arwyn? (Not sure how many will get the reference....)
I love the fact that Lord of the Rings is a Flavor set first, Commander set second and Modern set third. We reaaally didn't need Modern Horizons 3: Lord of the Rings.
wotc made a commander set that see play on eternal formats is is legal, and now ia making a set for modern that will see play only in commander
Bowmaster / burning inquiry
But mount doom in deathsshadow or burn tho 🥲
Funny title in retrospect
Wow, Richard, no love for Tears of the Kingdom?
I'm kinda sad this set isn't standard legal :')
about standard: the way I see, the three year rotation wil let wotc raise standard power levels, and make standard kinda rotate itself due to the new powerful cards
I certainly don’t think this is the case. The standard power level shift has *already* happened imo, they’ve been pretty consistent with the power level of standard sets in the short term and any sets included in the now extended rotation cycle were developed before this change was made, so at most this decision was influenced by upcoming sets rather than the other way around (otherwise we would have heard about it last rotation I’d imagine)
the only way I could see that happening is if wotc suddenly announced “fire design 2: oko was fine actually” which would be frankly completely insane and I cannot see happening in the next decade. but I guess you never know.
Yea probably a fair chunk of them
Just watched the Magic Historian and he thinks the power level is too much.
He's a total clown
I feel the only card from the set to see modern play is reprieve.
I’m playing Diablo and magic lol
Only Hobbits call themselves Hobbits. Barely anyone else in Middle Earth knows what a Hobbit is. Most of the people have only ever heard myths about halflings. So to most of Middle Earth Hobbits are halflings. Creature type seems to fit to me
i feel like richard is out of touch with standard. mono white aggro is insane rn just dont play control
This set really does seem like it shouldve been pioneer legal and they just got the names of the formats mixed up. Power level is really good for pioneer, but basically useless in modern. And i am dreading the day they release pioneer horizons because thats the day the format dies imo
In the LOTR only Hobbits and people who know about then call them Hobbits. Every other race calls them halflings.
Why does crim suck so much?
Why do you care so much? Lol
This feels like one of the most confused sets in years. The power level is standard at best, and not even that high compared to certain recent standard sets like return to kamigawa, etc. Why specifically make it modern legal then instead of the usual legacy/commander? Speaking of, the set definitely has a strong focus on legendary creatures/legendary permanents matter, but barely more than the average standard set nowadays, considering that standard legal sets are practically made draft first, commander second, and then finally for actual standard. So clearly, it's supposed to be selling on flavor and the ip, after all, it's the most top-down designed set of all time, but sooooo much of the flavor is outright TERRIBLE. I could be here all day just picking apart the implementation of the ring, from the fact that there are multiple legendary cards depicting the ring, and I'm half expecting there to be at least one more depicting it in gollum/isildur's possession, to literally everything with how the temptation mechanic works and the fact it doesn't tempt you at all. Very confused set.
Lol, Diablo 4, SF6 or the Outside. Seriously why does anyone try so hard to enjoy standard.
Can’t wait for richard to be wrong just like every set and back track on all his “hot takes”
Hopefully not
I hope none see modern play. Hasbro needs to stop doing this universe beyond crap. So desperate for profit. Even with the current universe beyond sets they're still in the negative. Obviously it's not working so why keep trying.
Why does he talk like that?
Seth just talk like a normal person please