My takeaway from CATL was that the condensed battery is similar to the Amprius 500 Wh/kg battery right now. CATL says they are engaging with aviation customers right now and that the batteries will be mass produced later this year. I'm slightly skeptical about what their definition of "mass produced" means exactly. But if they can get the cost per Kwh down to reasonable levels even within a few years, this is a game changer.
My takeaway is to never trust a stock exchange company that doesn't use graphs and scientific measures to explain the performance of their "future" technology, no cycles, thermal info, C ratings, volume, lab results, factory rollout times, volume predictions... instead it uses vague professorly "biomimetic" words without a given reason.
that's cool! i calculated recently that with a doubling of the volumetric energy density electric motorcycles might have a range very comparable to internal combustion engine motorcycle so this is very important development. :)
Electric motorcycles are exactly why I was watching this, lol. If the livewire s2 del mar had twice the range, it would be perfect imo. Livewire's specs say they are using cells with 250Wh/kg so if The promised specs on these batteries eventually become standard stuff is going to double just like you are hoping and get pretty fun.
Semi solid state isn't really a half way technology. It's its own thing vs all solid state. It is highly likely that we never actually go all solid state as it has conductivity and resistance issues as solids are poor at transfering ions between eachother. If the electrolyte is non flammable then it makes no difference for safety between all solid state and semi solid state and most companies that claim they are developing a solid state batter are actually making a semi solid with small amounts of electrolyte.
I would not compare western trends to China, they are far ahead. Any use of SS or SSS is using a lithium anode, no other reason, so the density should be close to what they say. Lithium metal is likely the reason for the low quantity build as its very expensive. There are names looking to use a form of vapor deposition to get lithium metal prices down. Still seems CATL is many many years ahead of their Western counterparts. Remember they made 811's years before anyone in the West thought possible
Thanks John, great overview. I think your predictions are correct, this CATL battery will take a couple-few years to test out and come down in price, as will the NASA, and all other solid-state batts. They all seem to be struggling with the same problem-low cycle life and high cost.
There is diffrence between CATL, NASA and the various start ups working on solid state batteries. CATL is major battery manufacturer that has over 200 GWh production capacity. NASA is a research organization, they wont be mass producing the batteries themselves . The start ups well they are "start ups" their mass production speed and volume is going to be diffrent than CATL.
@@najibyarzerachic very interesting point of view. I think mr cleanerwatt has an issue with the anode chemistry that will take time. Once they have a working prototype the cost will come down Verrry quickly, subject to the cost and availability of the elements being used.
besides they litteraly are experts and tell the public they are mass producing THIS YEAR 500wh kg--- there is no reason to doubt.--- it will be pricy niche not for mass car adoption
Has any Chinese company released accurate information on there new products? This will be no different, if the real numbers are merely half of what they stated, that would better than most claims.
Tesla's 4680 battery program will not be rendered obsolete by any other battery OEM. Tesla simply needs more batteries as fast and as cheap as they can get them for vehicles and fixed energy storage. By making their own batteries Tesla also captures IRA federal subsidies for every battery they make. Tesla will likely learn from and incorporate mature and beneficial alternative battery technologies (and technologists) into their own 4680 program.
with subsidy of tens of billions ya they will make them for 40-50$ kwh... which is stupid cheap-- easily selling unlimited they produce..... and the lifespan might even be extremely surpising with 4680 maybe they make long lifecycle---- then it only compete on density which is losing game if the cells last half lifespan and are double price its 4x the price then seems extreme niche.
CATL has been working on this for a while. China is pushing this and has a more supportive regulatory environment. They will likely release these condensed batteries, as well as sodium ion batteries, to China market BEV OEM partners by the end of this year.
Enough with this "4680" because Elon said it is that. 4680 breaks an international standard for cylindrical cell nomenclature, which is 2 digits for the diameter in mm (which presupposes a diameter less than 100 mm), then as many digits required for the height in tenths of mm. The reason is that in some applications the height fit is tenth of mm critical. The correct designation for what Elon calls 4680 is 46800.
US battery technology is basically Tesla and their one 4680 technology. For some reason the US has decided to give up the entire energy storage industry to China without even putting up a fight. There should be a dozen US companies researching and manufacturing cells, instead we have 1.
You are a typical ignorant dude. Of the 10 largest EV battery manufacturers, 6 of them are Chinese. CATL and BYD are the 2 largest. These 6 Chinese companies produced more than 60% of the world's EV battery, with CATL and BYD accounting for over 50%. The other 4 companies are 3 Koreans and 1 Japanese. No American or European companies in the top 10 list. The Chinese also produce 60% of all the battery cathodes and 80% of all the anodes. The Chinese control the supply chain for the materials used in EV battery manufacturing.
500KWh/kg if it happens at an affordable price, would be a significant improvement in EVs A 300 mile EV with a 70KWh pack weighing 450kg would become a 300 mile EV with a 63KWh pack (more efficient as less mass) weighing 200kg So a massive 250kg reduction in weight. A 2,000kg EV would become a 1,750kg EV. It woupd possibly be even better as the weight reductions could potentially allow lower weight motor & suspension
weight does not matter... if the lifespan is 3x less then 4680 and cost is 3x more then 4680 then its 9x more per mile... i think it super niche expensive and MAYBEEE in few more years it can come down to be in supercars and motorcycles but idk ever to the cheap evs
On this occasion you needn't have speculated. It would have been better to wait to see what we have with this condensed matter battery. No matter, we will know soon enough.
John please can you put a cup of coffee on the counter in the background to freak out your fans. Even if this has to be done digitally it will be worth it!
Numerous high-density battery prototypes have been reported, but they have yet to be mass-produced. If it weren't for CATL, the largest battery manufacturer, I would consider these developments to be mere laboratory experiments. FYI, CATL has also published their CTP3.0 battery pack which provides up to 140kwh power, customer can order 140kwh battery with Zeeker 001/009 cars and the battery upgrade costs extra 16000$. So I think CATL condensed battery would at least be expensive than their CTP3.0 battery(Kirin battery)
ITS ALL NOISE : Tesla is progressing the scaling the dry electrode cylindrical 4680 cells & is likely to join CATL producing in the USA. As the worlds largest cell consumer Tesla criteria is a balance of cost, performance, efficiency, scale & reliability. They are exploring every rabbit hole, and are testing every electrode-electrolyte - to be ready to go into scale production if the criteria are met.
Maybe It's all noise. Maybe people thought that about 4680. Maybe some people still think that about 4680. It was recently at a run rate of 4 GWH instead the 100 GWH it was supposed to be at by now. Things take time but CATL has a history of delivering as well. CATL has both the LIPO4 and the LMFP batteries. Significant accomplishments.
Год назад+6
It's CATL, not a small startup claiming a big success searching for funding. At least, it must be taken into consideration. As always, price will be everything. If cost per Wh is ten times higher than regular liquid state electrolite batteries, it won't be a high success but in niche usages. But it's only twice, it will a success in premium vehicle brands.
… When you say that CATL is not a competitor to TESLA, but a supplier, that doesn’t seem right. Both are in the business of selling batteries! For now, CATL is a supplier because of how history works.
"The market for static energy storage (and therefore cells) is quasi infinite" Elon Musk (paraphrased) . Tesla has chosen the "small factory, simplified process, high output (from the FACTORY)" method with the 4680. . CATL is going with "try different methods and see what sticks". Mainly because it's "what they do" (?) . It doesn't matter. As with the vehicle industry, nobody can do it all.
Ultra Sports Cars, Yachts for the uber wealthy, Long Haul Semis, Cargo Shipping, metropolitan city buildings, heavy Construction vehicles, military industry, etc could all be interested in these expensive battery solutions. Huge huge market for high density batteries and those groups will pay a pretty penny for these solutions.
Cheap? they will not be... for sure, at least until they have real competition. Regarding the energy density we should expect something impressive, close to what they announced, otherwise they will be irrelevant. Keep in mind that their current ternary cells are already close to 300 wh/kg so we should expect a big jump from there
Mobile phones and computers have been the primary early adopters of high energy density batteries. The 500 Whr/k is considered to be the practical energy density needed for aircraft. Since aircraft have much higher cost than EVs, they will be able to much more easily able to absorb the higher cost of these new higher energy density batteries until production scales up and economies of scale kick in.
You done excellent job try to collect sparse info on CATL condensed battery . But i still think it will be game changer in 2-3 years. I am concerned on 4680 packaging as shown in munro live - it is unrepairable and i think more difficult to recycle.
the life of 4680 is probably 2x longer lithium you wont need to replace lol... and tesla be pumping them out for 80$kwh and after subsidy of gov 50$ only.... no one want to pay triple for battery that last 1/3rd the life thats 9x more expensive per mile
@@dancar2537 all comes down to lifespan of cells -- the range is plentiyful already only people drive 500km daily need super charger which is 1% people and china has no supercharger infrustructure in usa lmao
@@travis7860 in my opinion it is all about fast charging and lifespan. i am never going to buy a car that charges in half an hour let alone one hour even if it charges over night. i might need my car at any time to drive long ranges. with 4680 there is no fast charging and that means no advance for me. let musk think what he wants 4680 is a downgrade. instead catl and byd seem to have something
CATL translated in real battery term would have 200kw at 400kg Tesla model 3 has a battery of 460kg and 60kw, with catl battery model 3 would have a 1500km range +-
they said they have clear path to 70kwh and with subsidys thats like 40 $ kwh..... and we not even know their cycle life it could be double of lithium today.... so they have double life cells for 40$ kwh they can sell for 60$kwh and make 50% profit all day long selling unlimited.......ide say tesla is farther then catl
My takeaway from CATL was that the condensed battery is similar to the Amprius 500 Wh/kg battery right now. CATL says they are engaging with aviation customers right now and that the batteries will be mass produced later this year. I'm slightly skeptical about what their definition of "mass produced" means exactly. But if they can get the cost per Kwh down to reasonable levels even within a few years, this is a game changer.
They don’t exaggerate. They historically underpromise and over deliver.
My takeaway is to never trust a stock exchange company that doesn't use graphs and scientific measures to explain the performance of their "future" technology, no cycles, thermal info, C ratings, volume, lab results, factory rollout times, volume predictions... instead it uses vague professorly "biomimetic" words without a given reason.
that's cool! i calculated recently that with a doubling of the volumetric energy density electric motorcycles might have a range very comparable to internal combustion engine motorcycle so this is very important development. :)
Electric motorcycles are exactly why I was watching this, lol. If the livewire s2 del mar had twice the range, it would be perfect imo. Livewire's specs say they are using cells with 250Wh/kg so if The promised specs on these batteries eventually become standard stuff is going to double just like you are hoping and get pretty fun.
Semi solid state isn't really a half way technology. It's its own thing vs all solid state. It is highly likely that we never actually go all solid state as it has conductivity and resistance issues as solids are poor at transfering ions between eachother. If the electrolyte is non flammable then it makes no difference for safety between all solid state and semi solid state and most companies that claim they are developing a solid state batter are actually making a semi solid with small amounts of electrolyte.
I would not compare western trends to China, they are far ahead. Any use of SS or SSS is using a lithium anode, no other reason, so the density should be close to what they say. Lithium metal is likely the reason for the low quantity build as its very expensive. There are names looking to use a form of vapor deposition to get lithium metal prices down. Still seems CATL is many many years ahead of their Western counterparts. Remember they made 811's years before anyone in the West thought possible
Thanks John, great overview. I think your predictions are correct, this CATL battery will take a couple-few years to test out and come down in price, as will the NASA, and all other solid-state batts. They all seem to be struggling with the same problem-low cycle life and high cost.
There is diffrence between CATL, NASA and the various start ups working on solid state batteries.
CATL is major battery manufacturer that has over 200 GWh production capacity. NASA is a research organization, they wont be mass producing the batteries themselves . The start ups well they are "start ups" their mass production speed and volume is going to be diffrent than CATL.
@@najibyarzerachic very interesting point of view. I think mr cleanerwatt has an issue with the anode chemistry that will take time. Once they have a working prototype the cost will come down Verrry quickly, subject to the cost and availability of the elements being used.
did someone in the comments told him this is being mass produced later this year? this is catl and not panasonic or tesla
If you’re right with the 98 watt/hr per 4680 then we will see a 400 mile range model Y which would be job done for EVs
Yep, totally agree...going from lab to production is not a quick process.
CATL is not some univ lab. If they promised mass production, they deliver.
@@mochen9282 Time will tell.
besides they litteraly are experts and tell the public they are mass producing THIS YEAR 500wh kg--- there is no reason to doubt.--- it will be pricy niche not for mass car adoption
@@rgeraldalexander4278it’s CATL, they’ve always delivered.
Has any Chinese company released accurate information on there new products?
This will be no different, if the real numbers are merely half of what they stated, that would better than most claims.
I was just about to ask what semi-solid state was 😂. Then you started explaining it 😊
FreeKekistan... are we related? I live in a Frunk. Is Kekistan near Nova Scotia?
@@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck It’s my Tesla brother 👍
Tesla's 4680 battery program will not be rendered obsolete by any other battery OEM. Tesla simply needs more batteries as fast and as cheap as they can get them for vehicles and fixed energy storage. By making their own batteries Tesla also captures IRA federal subsidies for every battery they make. Tesla will likely learn from and incorporate mature and beneficial alternative battery technologies (and technologists) into their own 4680 program.
with subsidy of tens of billions ya they will make them for 40-50$ kwh... which is stupid cheap-- easily selling unlimited they produce..... and the lifespan might even be extremely surpising with 4680 maybe they make long lifecycle---- then it only compete on density which is losing game if the cells last half lifespan and are double price its 4x the price then seems extreme niche.
Thank you. I had heard a little bit about the new CATL battery, but your video gave a much better understanding of what it actually is.
Awesome! I am glad it was helpful.
CATL has been working on this for a while. China is pushing this and has a more supportive regulatory environment. They will likely release these condensed batteries, as well as sodium ion batteries, to China market BEV OEM partners by the end of this year.
Enough with this "4680" because Elon said it is that. 4680 breaks an international standard for cylindrical cell nomenclature, which is 2 digits for the diameter in mm (which presupposes a diameter less than 100 mm), then as many digits required for the height in tenths of mm. The reason is that in some applications the height fit is tenth of mm critical. The correct designation for what Elon calls 4680 is 46800.
Why Tesla buy batteries from BYD? 😂Where is 4680 and cyber truck?😂 already waiting 3 years
I am counting on US battery technology catching up to CATL. I would never buy a CATL battery and give profits to CCP.
Will we catch up with the potential for patent infringement issues?
Don't buy a Buick Envision. Made in China for GM. Profits go to CCP.
Americans are more interested in tikkot than engineering.
US battery technology is basically Tesla and their one 4680 technology. For some reason the US has decided to give up the entire energy storage industry to China without even putting up a fight. There should be a dozen US companies researching and manufacturing cells, instead we have 1.
You are a typical ignorant dude. Of the 10 largest EV battery manufacturers, 6 of them are Chinese. CATL and BYD are the 2 largest. These 6 Chinese companies produced more than 60% of the world's EV battery, with CATL and BYD accounting for over 50%. The other 4 companies are 3 Koreans and 1 Japanese. No American or European companies in the top 10 list.
The Chinese also produce 60% of all the battery cathodes and 80% of all the anodes.
The Chinese control the supply chain for the materials used in EV battery manufacturing.
500KWh/kg if it happens at an affordable price, would be a significant improvement in EVs
A 300 mile EV with a 70KWh pack weighing 450kg would become a 300 mile EV with a 63KWh pack (more efficient as less mass) weighing 200kg
So a massive 250kg reduction in weight. A 2,000kg EV would become a 1,750kg EV. It woupd possibly be even better as the weight reductions could potentially allow lower weight motor & suspension
weight does not matter... if the lifespan is 3x less then 4680 and cost is 3x more then 4680 then its 9x more per mile... i think it super niche expensive and MAYBEEE in few more years it can come down to be in supercars and motorcycles but idk ever to the cheap evs
3:44, manufacturers like using fancy names that have zero meaning to the general user, just look at the cosmetic industry and their "hyaluronic acid".
On this occasion you needn't have speculated. It would have been better to wait to see what we have with this condensed matter battery. No matter, we will know soon enough.
Hi John hope they can pull it off but not enough data we just have to wait and see!🔋
John please can you put a cup of coffee on the counter in the background to freak out your fans. Even if this has to be done digitally it will be worth it!
Better still a CGI rodent in the background.
10:25) "really expensive?" So this technology is priced like lithium ion was a decade ago...
"Really expensive"......
BUT
now being produced by a company expert in rapid expansion and VERY deep pockets .... Unlike a decade ago.
Numerous high-density battery prototypes have been reported, but they have yet to be mass-produced. If it weren't for CATL, the largest battery manufacturer, I would consider these developments to be mere laboratory experiments.
FYI, CATL has also published their CTP3.0 battery pack which provides up to 140kwh power, customer can order 140kwh battery with Zeeker 001/009 cars and the battery upgrade costs extra 16000$. So I think CATL condensed battery would at least be expensive than their CTP3.0 battery(Kirin battery)
It’s twice as expensive. That’s why they’re going after planes first.
ITS ALL NOISE : Tesla is progressing the scaling the dry electrode cylindrical 4680 cells & is likely to join CATL producing in the USA. As the worlds largest cell consumer Tesla criteria is a balance of cost, performance, efficiency, scale & reliability. They are exploring every rabbit hole, and are testing every electrode-electrolyte - to be ready to go into scale production if the criteria are met.
Maybe It's all noise. Maybe people thought that about 4680. Maybe some people still think that about 4680. It was recently at a run rate of 4 GWH instead the 100 GWH it was supposed to be at by now. Things take time but CATL has a history of delivering as well. CATL has both the LIPO4 and the LMFP batteries. Significant accomplishments.
It's CATL, not a small startup claiming a big success searching for funding. At least, it must be taken into consideration. As always, price will be everything. If cost per Wh is ten times higher than regular liquid state electrolite batteries, it won't be a high success but in niche usages. But it's only twice, it will a success in premium vehicle brands.
CATL is the real deal.
Could be good for longer range 🚛 semis
Yep and who is making innovative semi’s? This is good news for the EV industry and TSLA as the market leader.
what is their volumetric energy density? is it also like double the normal?
good point i think probably near double but bit less ide guess as far as i know the lithiums 21700 5000mah cells i use in ebikes are 300wh kg
… When you say that CATL is not a competitor to TESLA, but a supplier, that doesn’t seem right. Both are in the business of selling batteries! For now, CATL is a supplier because of how history works.
"The market for static energy storage (and therefore cells) is quasi infinite"
Elon Musk (paraphrased)
.
Tesla has chosen the "small factory, simplified process, high output (from the FACTORY)" method with the 4680.
.
CATL is going with "try different methods and see what sticks". Mainly because it's "what they do" (?)
.
It doesn't matter.
As with the vehicle industry, nobody can do it all.
Yes, good point.Quasi.
Ultra Sports Cars, Yachts for the uber wealthy, Long Haul Semis, Cargo Shipping, metropolitan city buildings, heavy Construction vehicles, military industry, etc could all be interested in these expensive battery solutions. Huge huge market for high density batteries and those groups will pay a pretty penny for these solutions.
Cheap? they will not be... for sure, at least until they have real competition. Regarding the energy density we should expect something impressive, close to what they announced, otherwise they will be irrelevant. Keep in mind that their current ternary cells are already close to 300 wh/kg so we should expect a big jump from there
Mobile phones and computers have been the primary early adopters of high energy density batteries. The 500 Whr/k is considered to be the practical energy density needed for aircraft. Since aircraft have much higher cost than EVs, they will be able to much more easily able to absorb the higher cost of these new higher energy density batteries until production scales up and economies of scale kick in.
🤗THANKS JON ,FOR SHARING…EXCITING NEWS 😎💚💚💚
When the hype is exceeded by the available information, reality is far behind.
You done excellent job try to collect sparse info on CATL condensed battery . But i still think it will be game changer in 2-3 years. I am concerned on 4680 packaging as shown in munro live - it is unrepairable and i think more difficult to recycle.
the life of 4680 is probably 2x longer lithium you wont need to replace lol... and tesla be pumping them out for 80$kwh and after subsidy of gov 50$ only.... no one want to pay triple for battery that last 1/3rd the life thats 9x more expensive per mile
Sounds like nickel battery to me
The biggest battery company in the world doesn't hype things
fact ,, it will just be 500wh exactly as they said mass production this year later... but for very niche airplane supercars etc
good balanced review
Drink a shot every time he says CATL
tesla 4680 are a disaster
and will be made under $50 kwh after subsidy in masssssive quantitys and have long life and be 2x cheaper then anything else per mile so terrible ;)
@@travis7860 yes, they will. by then the chinese will be rocketing a 5 min charger
@@dancar2537 all comes down to lifespan of cells -- the range is plentiyful already only people drive 500km daily need super charger which is 1% people and china has no supercharger infrustructure in usa lmao
@@travis7860 in my opinion it is all about fast charging and lifespan. i am never going to buy a car that charges in half an hour let alone one hour even if it charges over night. i might need my car at any time to drive long ranges. with 4680 there is no fast charging and that means no advance for me. let musk think what he wants 4680 is a downgrade. instead catl and byd seem to have something
@@dancar2537 4680 will suit 99% your picky ass can charge fast and pay 10k more lol
CATL will compete with Tesla in power storage.
Quite possibly. Collaborate and compete at the same time, depends on profit margin and faster revenue turnaround I suppose
CATL will "COMPLIMENT" Tesla in power (energy) storage.
Tesla gets some of their batteries components from CATL, so in a way, a small part of Tesla batteries are CATL as well.
Imagine if the battery self ignites on the plane, that would be scary.
CATL translated in real battery term would have 200kw at 400kg Tesla model 3 has a battery of 460kg and 60kw, with catl battery model 3 would have a 1500km range +-
This a Lfp?
It is a specific battery chemisty. Lead Iron Phosphate.
@@scottbreseke716 no nickel in it?
@@xlargetophat I'm sorry. It's lithium iron phosphate, and it contains no nickel.
@@scottbreseke716 are you sure?
@@xlargetophat look it up
Do you think Tesla is falling behind in battery tech?
Do you?
they said they have clear path to 70kwh and with subsidys thats like 40 $ kwh..... and we not even know their cycle life it could be double of lithium today.... so they have double life cells for 40$ kwh they can sell for 60$kwh and make 50% profit all day long selling unlimited.......ide say tesla is farther then catl