the thing people don't really see is that anomaly is a balance nightmare. the problem is that it's already a balance nightmare from the concept alone. there would always be a certain anomalies which are miles better for your current board and you would want to spend more gold on. easy way to look at this is when you're playing vertical rebel and IF you could reroll your augment choice as much as you could with anomaly, you would be willing spend more gold for paint the town blue or rebel spat because it spikes you harder than other augments the same way violet reroll player would look for ultimate hero. some anomalies are better some are worse. whether put a balance lever on these anomalies (the ones that has no number to tweak, ex: ultimate hero) or just delete it altogether. super fun set mechanic, nightmare to balance.
Honestly I'm just not sure why the new system isnt transparent on what its specific mechanics are. The hidden headliner mechanics were only bad BECAUSE they were hidden
you need to be a sweat who learns everything for just a mechanic that last one set which sucks for the casual players who just wants to enjoy/force a certain comp
Counterpoint: the headliner hidden rules only became problematic once people understood how they worked. Hidden rules can help to equal out the RNG in a game like this to prevent outliers. For instance, when rolling down for a unit, there might be a hidden rule that ever-so-slightly boosts the odds of champions who have not shown up in any rolls, or reduce the odds of champions who have shown up too often but are not purchased. This is a rule that would technically change the way you play the game (a reroll comp might be more mathematically preferable to angle towards vs with raw odds) but works best if the players are unaware and only benefit from it when they otherwise would've been forced into a non-game scenario where they got astronomically unlucky. Headliners, on the other hand, had a hidden mechanic that was both easily testable (For instance, I had identified it naturally during the PBE cycle before the LeDuck video even went up about it) and drastically impacted the gameplay when players knew how to abuse it. The issue with that mechanic was NOT that it was hidden, it was how dramatically it changed expected vs actual outcome, and how heavily it therefore rewarded people for gaming it (buy and sell any headliner from the trait you want to reset the hidden rule timer).
its probably a lower chance to see that anomaly every time u see it right, so its hard to see the same anomaly 5 times in a row, but there is still a chance, kind of like shop
Why is the answer always "hide the information". Hide the mechanics. Hide the stats. Instead of hiding the information from people to "make it fair," why don't we make all of the stats and info available in the game so it is easy for all players to see?
Because people learn to abuse it. Look at how players played Set 10 prior to the hidden Headliner mechanic being exposed and what happened soon after. If there's a way for players to avoid skill expression via hidden game mechanics or reliance on statistics, they'll do it and that's not fun at all. Hiding the statistics for augments encouraged players to think for themselves rather than rely on a 3rd-party site to tell them what to play. Knowing the average placements of comps results in plenty of players forcing that comp, meaning you're playing against the same comps multiple times per game across all your games and in turn limits what you can play based off that prevalent comp. If everything was exposed then there wouldn't be the fun of exploring options, deciding which comp you like most, debating which augments would help you best. It would just be "try to get this comp", "this augment has higher placements so pick that", or even some genuinely-exploitative mechanics like this set's Ultimate Hero gold exploit that happened this very set. By hiding the details, obscuring what people can deduce, it makes it harder to reach that 'meta-game' state. For example, if there was a guarantee to roll a certain anomaly with this much gold then there would be plenty of people hoarding gold a couple of rounds prior to the anomaly roll so that they can force BiS on their carry/tank. You would see that 3* Urgot almost every game, blasting its way through your frontline. That's not fun at all, not for the player using it who doesn't think for themselves and only gets dopamine from a high placement and not fun for the player facing it who's forced to struggle against meta-comps that can be brute-forced with enough gold.
@@Fut_re agree, i even wish there was a way to hide average placement of comps and items the way they've managed to hide augments so people would stop defaulting to forcing s tier comps every game, unfortunately there's no feasible way to do this unless you were to disable match history entirely, which is also unfun if you're trying to look back at ur games.
Bcs then the game will get solved and it gets boring and mort loses his job 😂 the man real aim is to make the game as “interesting” as possible by balance thrashing so players will want to keep playing and making luck based mechanics so ppl feel the thrill of hitting the nuts.
It probably just blacklists that particular anomaly from showing up for X amount of rolls meaning your odds of a specific anomaly showing up will never be greater than 1/(Total-X) on a given roll.
he literally stated this wasn't the case with his urgot example; most bad luck protection is just some form of multiplicative weight update on odds (e.g. it never becomes impossible unless you want to discuss extremely fine detail on random number generation and instead just becomes multiplicatively less unlikely)
I think increasing the anomaly reroll cost to 2-3-4 gold per 5 roll increment is the way to go. It would take away the bad feeling of getting a repeat anomaly on the roll down.
Making it possible to roll a previous anomaly that you skipped gotta be one of the worst change they could have done Saving 60 golds to force your anomaly was not the issue
@@axelnio7498 what he meant is, if every anomaly is balanced no one would force for spesific anomaly. But i dont agree. Some anomaly designed for spesific champs. only good for these chmaps. Mana on kill is ok on silco and zoe while its broken on hiem. Even tho the mana is reduced to 15 it will be good on heimer anyway cuz heimer is visnioary so they dont want to nerf an anomaly for only one unit. Its like augmetn some augmets are S tier for spesific comps but you can roll wrost augments for that comp anyway.
TFT has a ton of hidden rules, they are supposed to curb statistical outliers to prevent insane low rolls from happening. If the rules were not hidden, they would be gamed and abused (see: headliner hidden rules being too simple and therefore easy to figure out) which is when it becomes an issue. For instance, nobody seems to have an issue with augments being tailored or the hidden rules that prevent you from getting something like 5 rods from a PvE round in your AD comp. Hidden rules, when implemented effectively, are a huge benefit for the game.
@zbrodie the point was that there shouldn't be any hidden rules. All this info should be publicly available when needed. If some rules were consistently gameable and abusable, regardless if they were hidden or not, then they were bad rules in the first place.
@@avale8311TL;DR Hidden rules can be good sometimes, the headliner ones were just bad implementations I disagree. I think hidden rules, when executed well, make a game substantially better. If I design a game that, fundamentally, has a low % chance for someone to have an absolutely miserable time, or even just a "this feels really bad/stupid" moment, adding bad luck protection can make the game feel a lot better. I think we can all agree that getting absolutely shafted on a rolldown in TFT feels really bad, and can lead to games where you feel like you made very few mistakes and still lost. I think it's a pretty fair statement to say we've all had these kinds of games, and that they are an uncommon yet inevitable part of TFT's core game design. Those games represent what TFT looks like AFTER softening the odds with hidden rules (bad luck protection in shops is confirmed to exist, it was even the source of a 5 cost ryze bug in set 9.5), and without that kind of protection they would be far more common and potentially even harsher. The intent of the Headliner hidden rules was to make it less of a "lottery" by introducing hidden rules to mitigate the rng. However, the rules were far too obvious for players to figure out and were easily intentionally manipulated for positive gain, to the point where knowing or not knowing the rule provided a substantial competitive advantage. I think there were ways to implement hidden rules that provided similar benefits (less inherent variance = more emphasis on the player's active decisions) without a) being concrete enough that players could definitively confirm or debunk the hidden rule and b) providing such a large benefit for manipulating it. Things like tailoring your headliner to your current board, or even just boosting the odds without guaranteeing a specific outcome would be better than anything that is as concrete as what they went with. If the rule is found out, players can start abusing it. Next then is the benefit it provides to abuse. In the case of bad luck protection (BLP) on rolldowns, the only real consequence I can think of for players "manipulating" the hidden rule is that riskier plays are more appealing during decision-making than the math would indicate, but I think you get a feel for rolldowns through experience rather than doing the specific math, and even with the math the difference is somewhat negligible. Point is, it's not a hidden rule that is super beneficial to abuse since it's both unreliable and only marginally helpful. This is where I think the headliner hidden rules went wrong, and what the TFT team seems to have learned from.
@@justjuniorjaw surely it's because they care about competitive integrity and not because of gigabroken augments that they cant patch due to the nov and dec holiday breaks
I just rolled 60 gold trying to get ultimate hero and lost. Saw 2 other ones 3 times in a row so thats nice. And before you say I was forcing it yes I was because I had the duplicate anomaly item augment and wanted to see how strong 2 4stars were
@@h4xnslash900You definitely don't want someone to hit your combo and put the item on a 5 cost and delete your board, do you? That's why it's not possible.
@thelabcult4668 Isn't ultimate hunters phrasing "turn a 3star into a 4star"? So your scenario wouldn't be an issue. And if it isn't then just make it like that and it's fine
@@h4xnslash900 I forgot where the info came from, but this was said a while back, so I'm sorry you missed it and it hurt your game. That info really should be more out there. But yes, you can't get certain anomalies like ultimate hero and some other ones if you have the another anomaly augment
Mort:its not an A,B,A,B sequence
Everyone: okay sureee
Mort: its actually an A,B,C,A,B,C sequence
everyone proceeds to force ultimate hero
got giga nerfed it now takes 3 turns to activate
tell me you are silver without telling me you are silver
@@eatmypost9500I’m master, every violet player is still forcing ultimate hero
Simple reason : what else are you going to do with your golds?
@@korangar4164 im going to force them into friendship.
@@tosse006 🥺
They should’ve increased the cost to roll after 10 rolls or something. Accomplishes the same thing without being a tilting mechanic.
That is so much worse
I think that's a good alternative
the thing people don't really see is that anomaly is a balance nightmare. the problem is that it's already a balance nightmare from the concept alone. there would always be a certain anomalies which are miles better for your current board and you would want to spend more gold on.
easy way to look at this is when you're playing vertical rebel and IF you could reroll your augment choice as much as you could with anomaly, you would be willing spend more gold for paint the town blue or rebel spat because it spikes you harder than other augments the same way violet reroll player would look for ultimate hero.
some anomalies are better some are worse. whether put a balance lever on these anomalies (the ones that has no number to tweak, ex: ultimate hero) or just delete it altogether. super fun set mechanic, nightmare to balance.
I ain’t reading allat
Happy for u tho
Or sorry that happened
Honestly I'm just not sure why the new system isnt transparent on what its specific mechanics are. The hidden headliner mechanics were only bad BECAUSE they were hidden
you need to be a sweat who learns everything for just a mechanic that last one set which sucks for the casual players who just wants to enjoy/force a certain comp
TFT has always had hidden shop mechanics and nobody complained about them.
Hidden mechanics are only bad if people can figure them out.
Counterpoint: the headliner hidden rules only became problematic once people understood how they worked. Hidden rules can help to equal out the RNG in a game like this to prevent outliers. For instance, when rolling down for a unit, there might be a hidden rule that ever-so-slightly boosts the odds of champions who have not shown up in any rolls, or reduce the odds of champions who have shown up too often but are not purchased. This is a rule that would technically change the way you play the game (a reroll comp might be more mathematically preferable to angle towards vs with raw odds) but works best if the players are unaware and only benefit from it when they otherwise would've been forced into a non-game scenario where they got astronomically unlucky.
Headliners, on the other hand, had a hidden mechanic that was both easily testable (For instance, I had identified it naturally during the PBE cycle before the LeDuck video even went up about it) and drastically impacted the gameplay when players knew how to abuse it. The issue with that mechanic was NOT that it was hidden, it was how dramatically it changed expected vs actual outcome, and how heavily it therefore rewarded people for gaming it (buy and sell any headliner from the trait you want to reset the hidden rule timer).
No, everything was okey until people find out about headliner mechanic and started abusing it. There it went bad, luckily it got nerfed
its probably a lower chance to see that anomaly every time u see it right, so its hard to see the same anomaly 5 times in a row, but there is still a chance, kind of like shop
Why is the answer always "hide the information". Hide the mechanics. Hide the stats. Instead of hiding the information from people to "make it fair," why don't we make all of the stats and info available in the game so it is easy for all players to see?
Because people learn to abuse it. Look at how players played Set 10 prior to the hidden Headliner mechanic being exposed and what happened soon after. If there's a way for players to avoid skill expression via hidden game mechanics or reliance on statistics, they'll do it and that's not fun at all. Hiding the statistics for augments encouraged players to think for themselves rather than rely on a 3rd-party site to tell them what to play. Knowing the average placements of comps results in plenty of players forcing that comp, meaning you're playing against the same comps multiple times per game across all your games and in turn limits what you can play based off that prevalent comp.
If everything was exposed then there wouldn't be the fun of exploring options, deciding which comp you like most, debating which augments would help you best. It would just be "try to get this comp", "this augment has higher placements so pick that", or even some genuinely-exploitative mechanics like this set's Ultimate Hero gold exploit that happened this very set. By hiding the details, obscuring what people can deduce, it makes it harder to reach that 'meta-game' state.
For example, if there was a guarantee to roll a certain anomaly with this much gold then there would be plenty of people hoarding gold a couple of rounds prior to the anomaly roll so that they can force BiS on their carry/tank. You would see that 3* Urgot almost every game, blasting its way through your frontline. That's not fun at all, not for the player using it who doesn't think for themselves and only gets dopamine from a high placement and not fun for the player facing it who's forced to struggle against meta-comps that can be brute-forced with enough gold.
@@Fut_re agree, i even wish there was a way to hide average placement of comps and items the way they've managed to hide augments so people would stop defaulting to forcing s tier comps every game, unfortunately there's no feasible way to do this unless you were to disable match history entirely, which is also unfun if you're trying to look back at ur games.
Bcs then the game will get solved and it gets boring and mort loses his job 😂 the man real aim is to make the game as “interesting” as possible by balance thrashing so players will want to keep playing and making luck based mechanics so ppl feel the thrill of hitting the nuts.
Because they are ashamed of their job of balancing the game.
It probably just blacklists that particular anomaly from showing up for X amount of rolls meaning your odds of a specific anomaly showing up will never be greater than 1/(Total-X) on a given roll.
he literally stated this wasn't the case with his urgot example; most bad luck protection is just some form of multiplicative weight update on odds (e.g. it never becomes impossible unless you want to discuss extremely fine detail on random number generation and instead just becomes multiplicatively less unlikely)
So tldr yes but i cant say yes
I think increasing the anomaly reroll cost to 2-3-4 gold per 5 roll increment is the way to go. It would take away the bad feeling of getting a repeat anomaly on the roll down.
I rolled 55 gold no ultimate hero ?Pitfighter violet 3star Anomaly is rigged now
Still think rerolls should cost 1 more gold each roll instead of allowing repeats.
Infuriatingly vague. Just tell us how it works wtf?
another disaster changes, why dafuk u touch mechanich that actually worked good, i am constantly gettin a shitt tons of same crap during rolling...
Making it possible to roll a previous anomaly that you skipped gotta be one of the worst change they could have done
Saving 60 golds to force your anomaly was not the issue
What wat the issue theb
@@axelnio7498 what he meant is, if every anomaly is balanced no one would force for spesific anomaly. But i dont agree. Some anomaly designed for spesific champs. only good for these chmaps. Mana on kill is ok on silco and zoe while its broken on hiem. Even tho the mana is reduced to 15 it will be good on heimer anyway cuz heimer is visnioary so they dont want to nerf an anomaly for only one unit. Its like augmetn some augmets are S tier for spesific comps but you can roll wrost augments for that comp anyway.
how bot you dont stop at YOU DID THIS WRONG. THIS WASNT THE PROBLEM.
and acutally tell the problem, like this you are just ranting cause bad
@@Kumak_0 so from no reasoing whatsoever, from op you just assume his point, what is this the community soju comments or what, think for yourselves
Forcing an anomaly was 100% an issue, are you dumb?
Im so happy they have so much transparency this set! truly one for the books
Stuff like this would be unfair. Meanwhile devs hiding information from the playerbase and playing the game with unfair advantage over everyone else.
Oh boy more hidden rules like with headliners what fun
TFT has a ton of hidden rules, they are supposed to curb statistical outliers to prevent insane low rolls from happening. If the rules were not hidden, they would be gamed and abused (see: headliner hidden rules being too simple and therefore easy to figure out) which is when it becomes an issue. For instance, nobody seems to have an issue with augments being tailored or the hidden rules that prevent you from getting something like 5 rods from a PvE round in your AD comp. Hidden rules, when implemented effectively, are a huge benefit for the game.
@zbrodie the point was that there shouldn't be any hidden rules. All this info should be publicly available when needed. If some rules were consistently gameable and abusable, regardless if they were hidden or not, then they were bad rules in the first place.
@@avale8311TL;DR Hidden rules can be good sometimes, the headliner ones were just bad implementations
I disagree. I think hidden rules, when executed well, make a game substantially better. If I design a game that, fundamentally, has a low % chance for someone to have an absolutely miserable time, or even just a "this feels really bad/stupid" moment, adding bad luck protection can make the game feel a lot better.
I think we can all agree that getting absolutely shafted on a rolldown in TFT feels really bad, and can lead to games where you feel like you made very few mistakes and still lost. I think it's a pretty fair statement to say we've all had these kinds of games, and that they are an uncommon yet inevitable part of TFT's core game design. Those games represent what TFT looks like AFTER softening the odds with hidden rules (bad luck protection in shops is confirmed to exist, it was even the source of a 5 cost ryze bug in set 9.5), and without that kind of protection they would be far more common and potentially even harsher.
The intent of the Headliner hidden rules was to make it less of a "lottery" by introducing hidden rules to mitigate the rng. However, the rules were far too obvious for players to figure out and were easily intentionally manipulated for positive gain, to the point where knowing or not knowing the rule provided a substantial competitive advantage. I think there were ways to implement hidden rules that provided similar benefits (less inherent variance = more emphasis on the player's active decisions) without a) being concrete enough that players could definitively confirm or debunk the hidden rule and b) providing such a large benefit for manipulating it.
Things like tailoring your headliner to your current board, or even just boosting the odds without guaranteeing a specific outcome would be better than anything that is as concrete as what they went with. If the rule is found out, players can start abusing it. Next then is the benefit it provides to abuse. In the case of bad luck protection (BLP) on rolldowns, the only real consequence I can think of for players "manipulating" the hidden rule is that riskier plays are more appealing during decision-making than the math would indicate, but I think you get a feel for rolldowns through experience rather than doing the specific math, and even with the math the difference is somewhat negligible. Point is, it's not a hidden rule that is super beneficial to abuse since it's both unreliable and only marginally helpful. This is where I think the headliner hidden rules went wrong, and what the TFT team seems to have learned from.
@@avale8311Hmm I wonder why Mort and his team keeps trying to hide Augment stats? Hmm.
@@justjuniorjaw surely it's because they care about competitive integrity and not because of gigabroken augments that they cant patch due to the nov and dec holiday breaks
I just rolled 60 gold trying to get ultimate hero and lost. Saw 2 other ones 3 times in a row so thats nice. And before you say I was forcing it yes I was because I had the duplicate anomaly item augment and wanted to see how strong 2 4stars were
Things like the 4 star, and the emblem wont show up if you chose that augment
@Travisqaq Seriously? How tf are people supposed to know that? Emblem makes sense but why 4 star?
@@h4xnslash900You definitely don't want someone to hit your combo and put the item on a 5 cost and delete your board, do you? That's why it's not possible.
@thelabcult4668 Isn't ultimate hunters phrasing "turn a 3star into a 4star"? So your scenario wouldn't be an issue. And if it isn't then just make it like that and it's fine
@@h4xnslash900 I forgot where the info came from, but this was said a while back, so I'm sorry you missed it and it hurt your game. That info really should be more out there. But yes, you can't get certain anomalies like ultimate hero and some other ones if you have the another anomaly augment