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I'm still emotionally gutted over how Shi Jin and his unit where suddenly annihilated at a pass, specially consider he's first "main character" we meet at the novel
I'm only half-joking, but I've always thought the closest thing in Western popular culture to Water Margin is The Fast & The Furious. You have an outlaw band that keeps recruiting new characters, with some of the early recruits being sympathetic law enforcement officers; strong themes of "family" and brotherhood among tough guys (and some women); enemies are bested by the main group and subsequently join their side; they go from being simple outlaws to eventually being recruited to help the government; and there are strong hints that the government is just using them, the characters are skeptical of the government, but they can't really refuse... I could go on
Can't wait for the day the privately military contracted Fast and Furious Outlaws get dwindled down by government politicians into deserters and cadavers for a tragic blockbuster finale
That was masterful storytelling. Damn, one hell of a downer ending and of course, plenty of food for thought. Thank you so much for this! I just listened to your summarized Romance of the Three Kingdoms video, and I still remain in awe at your ability to summarize effectively yet entertain so thoroughly! Lifelong subscriber here!
I think the message for me is heroes cannot change the fate of a corrupt world. But if they can find like-minded friends they can live uncorrupt lives on their terms. Provided they are not only heroic but cunning.
There's a reason why textbook smart should always go with street smart. If you're a good person living among wolves, you gotta be a step ahead of them.
Corrupt will always exist, but to fight and act for the peace and continuity of the realm, in the larger picture, is the correct action. Who's to say the khitan too are not corrupt. If you yourself defect to the side of the khitan, then you find that yourself have become corrupt. Though funnily, these bandits are already corrupt bandits after all.
That dude nicknamed Wanderer was a smart one. He smelt something off about this whole “grand reward” from the government and got out quick. Still, a terrible end for our heroes 😢
Good old 'you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain' trope, and the never ending cycle between good, evil, law and chaos. Thanks for summarizing the Water Margin novel. 👍
A thousand thank you ! I've read (and re-read and re-read) Water Margin, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Journey to the West and Dream of the Red Chamber, in French, translations by scholars from "Institut National Des Langues Et Civilisations Orientales". While they provide lots of fascinating informations on history and culture, they lack the insights about spirituality, beliefs, etc. that your retelling and explanations provided. Thank you again!
"A leopard may change his spots, but the gazelle never forgives." -WBC (after watching this last ep in series). "Wherever you go-there you are." -Firesign Theater, Voltaire, et al.
I can try to explain the poem a bit more since there were some key words there that were not mentioned. The loyal are few, the righteous rare Success in YAN, but the moon's light is dim When winter start, the flock of geese will disperse Starting from WU ending in CHU Official fortune is returned This YAN (燕) is a pretty old and fancy way to refer to the Northern part of China. Essentially this is saying that Song Jiang will succeed in the fight against the Khitan Liao, but the outlook still looks dim. Then we have the WU and the CHU (吴, 楚). The usage here is pretty similar. This is saying Song Jiang started in the WU region, and will "end" (i.e. die) in the CHU region.
8:31 The translation of 'Dukkha' as 'suffering' is still highly debatable here in Indonesia/Indonesian speakers. There are if I am not mistaken no perfect english word that could represent and translate the word 'Dukkha' accurately, but overall, I am very thankful to see your amazing videos, teacher! Keep up the great work! 🎉😊👍
And there has yet to be a timeline where Song Jiang should have rebelled... an endearing classic tragedy of being a historical fiction epic portraying the lessons and the misgivings of fraternity and injustice
I think a Special should go to one of fang la's top main *Shi Bao* Man went on manslaughter killing 5 stars of destiny and damaging bandits morale before committing suicide during castle breach
The story of the Song is one of making Deals with the Devil. First, it was with the Jurchens against the Khitans, then it was with the Mongols against the Jurchens. Neither ended well.
Throughout the saga, I found Chai Jin and Wu Yong to be my favorite members! Nonetheless, this ensemble cast has been a thrill to follow. I feel in the end, their role as outcasts turned heroes immortalized them, while the corrupt ministers get to be remembered for being pivotal to the end of the Northern Song dynasty!
6:40 I didn't finished the video yet, but it seems the message meaning is "Becoming evil is too easy, but is better to keep doing acts of good, because in the moment the evildoers are gone you would be rewarded for your good deeds and honesty". 8:45 "When the evildoers are gone you might still in trouble, prepared yourself for the worse and relay on someone you can trust enough" In the Podcast I've was listening they explained Lin Chong surname can mean "double wood" or "forest", coincidence? 9:00 Help Xia and La take prisoners and maybe ask for a ransom or exchange hostages, and wait until the one they send gives him a signal to act, probably Lin Chong at this point. 9:50 Do you know how many chapters has the oldest version of Water Margin? It could help to see which version is the "original" and what was a later an add on. It could be the older versions where longer than later releases, but is just speculation of someone with little knowledge on chinese literature. (Funny how no version has exactly 108 chapters). 18:30 Maybe I was wrong. Very wrong. 23:00 I think a reason why many people didn't like the ending because no one won here. Did the 108 outlaws really got redempted? None of the Stars got rewarded from their actions, and the Empire fell out anyway. Maybe was intended to have a much happier ending where all of them got their redemption, but how things turned out in real life it was changed to a more downer one. It was because the Emperor is based on turned out to be so bad from listening the wrong people? Or it was meant to warn the dangerous of blind faith into the goverment and the loyalty to something which cause more harm than good? Is not surprise it didn't left anyone indifferent.
As a kid reading this novel, the poison wine scene was the most memorable. Scenes related to Wu Song keep getting brought up in the media. But the wine scene, which people never seem to mention, is the first scene I recall when I hear about the book, all these years after
The moral of the story is: Better men can be overcome by lesser ones. But the consolation is, they're gonna get what's coming to them one way or the other. So, better be remembered as a "Hao han" than a spineless coward.
I can see why one might not like the ending of Water Margin. The best endings for the 108 are the ones who manage to leave while they still could. One of them even gets to be King of Siam. Most of the people receiving titles from the court would have short lives. The big four corrupt officials never get any kind of comeuppance. In fact the only comeuppance is if you know the Northern Song Dynasty gets its teeth kicked shortly after the novel. And Song Jiang probably didn't want to see that happen. I wonder if the idea of not following people blindly even applies to Song Jiang himself. After all, he ended up leading many of the stars to their deaths in the final campaign. Also it's funny reading the full 120 chapter version and seeing the disconnect between the filler rebels and the final campaign. Although that could be because I read the English translation of the 120 chapter version by John and Alex Dent-Young. In that version it's pretty clear Song Jiang is acting as if the filler rebels didn't exist during the final campaign.
They should take the offer of the Khitan Emperor when they had a chance. Not only that the Jin dynasty might not rise but they may be treated well as actual people. The ending of Water Margin reminded me of Attack on Titan in some ways. What do you think?
Here is the thing, who says the Khitan emperor wouldn't have done the same? Many political leaders tend to remove military factions who help them to gain power because they know how dangerous they can be since they could rebeled agaisnt them in the future.
@@nidohime6233 He probably has more ways to keep them in line without needing to turn on them, such as sending them to conquer Song lands and rewarding them with titles and governorships to them. More importantly, the promise of sating their revenge against the corrupt Guo Jia clique would be too much a temptation for the vast majority of the gang. Besides which, attrition will claim the lives of many of the heroes, diminishing their threat to the Liao. In the end, having them defect for real and even succeed in exacting their revenge would make for an interesting tale. It might end 'happily', in the sense that they're now able to live comfortable lives as Liao generals and governors, but at what cost, having sold out their own countrymen to subjugation by a barbarian empire out of vengeance against their corrupt government?
I felt bad that they didn't let these guys succeed at the end of the story when you did the big overview Then you actually did the summary and I found out what these guys actually DID And now I just feel sad in general
Im a bit late but i think the message that Water Margin wants to tell us is that actions have follow-ups. Even tho many of the characters have become outlaws unwilingly, they still decided to join the group by themselves. Thats not even mentioning what the others like Li Kui have done. You may not have action over the events themselves, you can still control their aftermath. This is kinda like Stoicism, where it teaches you life is is a compicated web of decisions predestined by the heavens but you still have autonomy when it comes to choosing your path. All you need is to analyse every decision in front of you and think of the outcome. Often the less obvious choice may be the one that will give you a good ending An example in the novel is Jian deciding to ask for amnesty from the imperial goverment. While it would seem natural to go with their outlaw style, it was SJ's idea that got them to have a happy ending even if the 4 officials werent punished for their misdeeds. If anything, they could have ended like La if they rebeled, killed and their names being forgotten. So tldr of my comment: do not think of the choice, think of the aftermath
I am glad to have watched this; thanks so much CJ and all our cool bros. \m/ This ending really hurt.... Ahhh, I don't know if I could ever write my own water margin, but, the idea would make a really cool setting for a video game or even a more wuxia-fable themed DND game I think. So I might go with the latter, haven't had a nice politically charged D&D game in awhile.
Learning something like it’s also a greatest inspiration stuff but the problem is that each society tend to have different ideas therefore it’s going to be hard
Is there any reason why Shi nai an only write 70 chapter? and it is consider complete when 108 star gathered(ch70)? Like CJ said the rest of redemption arc is writen by Luo Guanzhong or some confucian writters who think it not fit with confucian ideal.
Is just a theory among scholars, but even today no one knows why the tone of the story was changed. It could have started as a bunch of folktales where Shi Nai An tried to match together to make it more sense, but once he started to write the rest of the story it felt flat.
I'm of the opinion that chapters 71-100 were written by someone else, if only because the tone is so drastically different. I'm definitely on Team Cautionary Tale, as I've interpreted the last thirty chapters as a satire, much like Don Quixote. Frank Herbert's Dune is basically a warning against charismatic and messianic figureheads, and Water Margin--at least the last third--is a warning in that same vein. Loyalty is all well and good, but blind loyalty only burns you in the end. Of course, the bandits being bandits, maybe this was the best they could've hoped for. It's always a great discussion with no right or wrong answers. Well, except for the "lol it was all a dream" ending that Lu Junyin had, but we don't discuss that.
It does feel they changed it to a very different route of what is hinted previously on the first 70 chapters. No wonder so many scholars think the rest of the novel was a written by another author. Could it be there was a different ending to the story before it was censured in later centuries? Maybe the original author died before finishing their work?
@@nidohime6233 It's definitely a solid theory. Yes, there's lots of violence, but worse than that is sedition. A novel glorifying bandits that overthrow an empire? Or even the Emperor's ministers? No way was that ever going to fly.
Not related, but can you do a video about why while 3 kingdoms era is very famous with a lot of characters, 5 dynasties and 10 kingdoms era is really niche and very unknown, what is main cause for this?
It's just because of the literature. Romance of the Three Kingdoms made it popular. Just like how only the Roman empire of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra's time was popular in the English speaking countries, because Shakespeare wrote plays about it. Meanwhile, the Byzantine or Eastern Roman empire was mostly ignored by English speakers.
@@CoolHistoryBros True, also the language barrier is a huge obstacle for great works. Many people are missing so many great stories because of the lack of an official translation.
I would be most curious to see what the last third of the novel would look like if Shi Nai'an had finished writing it. It's a shame that apparently it loses a lot of its wit and charm there, and becomes a very dull and dreary rundown of military campaigns, even if the intent is to teach a cautionary tale about blind loyalty to people who don't deserve it. Which does tie into themes of how an utterly corrupt society is cruel to straightforward, honest and good willed people, which were brought up earlier, quite nicely.
Not even scholars are sure if the two writers theory is true. There has being cases where a story goes an entire different direction of what it was intended because the writer say so. We would never know.
Heroes who got "happy" endings: Gongsun Sheng, lived as he always had before he met Chao Gai Guan Sheng, died in a horse accident Wu Song, lost an arm but lived to the age of 80 Li Jun, deserted and became the king of Siam Ruan Xiaoqi, was removed from office by the villains, but he didn't mind and returned to being a fisherman Yan Qing, deserted Dong Wei and Dong Meng, deserted and followed Li Jun Song Qing, was rewarded for his brother's contributions. His son grew up to be a government official (basically the author tried to give Song Jiang a consolation prize) Chai Jin, Li Ying, Dai Zong, Zhu Wu, Pei Xuan, Yang Lin, Jiang Jing, Fan Rui, Mu Chun, Du Xing, Zou Run, Cai Qing, Sun Li, Sun Xin and Gu Dasao resigned from offices and lived as civilians, some refused to accept the positions in the first place Zhu Dong, Huang Xin, Xiao Rang, Ling Zhen, An Daoquan, Huangfu Duan, Jin Dajian and Yue He continued working for the government
I think Lu Zhishen (Lu Da) should counted since he lived and died as he wished and achieved enlightment He also happens to one of the few characters with consistent moral code and resisted goverment corruption
the take from this story is: the Song Dynasty government was corrupt to the core, it was impossible to prop up. no matter how many heroes worked to save it, it would crumble eventually. same as Liu Chan's Shu Kingdom. even though supported by many smart strategists and brave generals, when the leadership is weak, those heroes couldn't save the kingdom. but if a leader is strong, he will motivate and inspire those who work under him to work even better than their original capacity.
@@zetareticulan321 He did a couple of videos on Xuanzang, the historical inspiration for the Tang Priest/Tripitaka. Since the video maker is a Cool History Bro, he focused of that which was real and historical in Journey to the West rather than the fictional and mythological parts which make up the bulk of that story.
This sounds more of a criticism about blind loyalty which reminds me a lot of the ending of Three Kingdom. Putting false hope or faith could be another one, hoping the emperor took the correct action even though its unlikely. The characters shady action might've been another criticism to its society.
tbh Song Jiang and the gang lived died achieving their dreams at a cost, RTTK in middle hits you hard with Liu Bei slow downfal after death of guan yu and even after he entrusted his kingdom to the talented Zhuge liang, he still couldn't save his kingdom from it's fate due it's corrput officials and eunches so you left reading other half with nothing but the failures and slow delcine of a kingdoms our "heroes" built over half novel only to have squashed by their incompetant decendants
I want to believe in the future downfall of Song dynasty, the outcasts reincarnated as Jurchens, while Song Jiang became a horse. They become better men (plus horse) & battle the corrupt officials. Bringing back their old techniques & skills. While Song Jiang becomes a selfless-TRUE hero, sacrificing himself for his bros & meeting Lu Zhisen as buddhas or Devas IDK. That’s what’s rolling in my imagination.
The final campaign was really what one would term a Pyrrhic victory. Despite his victory, Song Jiang lost majority of his brethren, and ultimately fell victim to the wiles of evil ministers. In fact, it could be argued that the war against Fang La was something that not only hurt each other badly, but was a war that neither Song Jiang nor Fang La really wanted.
Well its difficult to explain, but in English translation the novel is called Outlaws of the Marsh since the 108 stars of destiny and their HQ are located in Mt Liang a real life mountain in Shandong China, during the Song Dynasty era that place was a nest and a hideout of many bandit groups. The area itself surrounding the mountain was a marshland which also provides a good natural defense for the outlaws.
In Indonesian translation of Confucius' sayings and Analects, there are two wise people: "Arif" (discerning, learned, capable) and "bijaksana" (prudent, discreet, tactful, sensible). It is used to compare two officials from the Spring and Autumn period. The king has two wise officials: the first one is said to be "arif" - when the situation is great, he carries the royal order and commands the royal's might. When the situation is grim, he gives straight advice and stern warnings to the King as if the kingdom in peril is his. The second one is said to be "bijaksana" - when the situaton is great, he joins the government, contributing and serving in his capacity and within his competency. When the situation is grim, he resigned and withdraw from notoriety living in recluse without ambition, avoiding all unnecessary trouble, bidding his time to return to a worthy ruler. Asian wisdom really feels like a fecal stain that refuses to be wiped about until your anus bleeds. It is annoying as hell but it is the simple reality. As a kid growing in westernised education, this Confucian ethos is very difficult to accept when compared to American import cartoon where there is only good guy vs bad guy, and they are always taking action. Lincolnite "to sin by silence" is pretty clear and very easy to understood. But then, as I grew up, judging "right or wrong" is actually much more difficult than it seems - and yes, "it is, and as has always been, a much simpler times back then". So it is only recently that I never resented the ending of typical East Asian classics.
So this is where you went CJ! I was wondering what happened with the dnd videos you use to make and what you went to do! Sorry if this is old news already.
They should have joined the Khitans! Imagine Li Kui fighting for nomads and stuff... Too bad Song Jiang was blindly loyal in an empire with a corrupted court
Nah, joining the Khitan would've been a worse choice for Song Jiang. It could only save his life but not his brothers (since they still have to go to war nonetheless). And he and his brothers would be remembered as traitors. Everyone dies eventually, what important is how they'll be remembered.
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How about Journey to the West!!
I'm still emotionally gutted over how Shi Jin and his unit where suddenly annihilated at a pass, specially consider he's first "main character" we meet at the novel
I'm only half-joking, but I've always thought the closest thing in Western popular culture to Water Margin is The Fast & The Furious. You have an outlaw band that keeps recruiting new characters, with some of the early recruits being sympathetic law enforcement officers; strong themes of "family" and brotherhood among tough guys (and some women); enemies are bested by the main group and subsequently join their side; they go from being simple outlaws to eventually being recruited to help the government; and there are strong hints that the government is just using them, the characters are skeptical of the government, but they can't really refuse... I could go on
You might have cracked the reason why it's such a popular franchise in China.
Toretto, you Son of a Gun, I'm in.
Family = Hao Han
Can't wait for the day the privately military contracted Fast and Furious Outlaws get dwindled down by government politicians into deserters and cadavers for a tragic blockbuster finale
Good Lord you are right also both are fucking long 70-100 chapters vs 10 or 11 movies
What a journey this was!
I see it as a cautionary tale against submitting to corrupt authorities which have bad intentions for you.
That was masterful storytelling. Damn, one hell of a downer ending and of course, plenty of food for thought. Thank you so much for this! I just listened to your summarized Romance of the Three Kingdoms video, and I still remain in awe at your ability to summarize effectively yet entertain so thoroughly! Lifelong subscriber here!
Brothers long divided must Unite,
Long United must divide...
Wait wrong novel...
I think the message for me is heroes cannot change the fate of a corrupt world. But if they can find like-minded friends they can live uncorrupt lives on their terms. Provided they are not only heroic but cunning.
There's a reason why textbook smart should always go with street smart. If you're a good person living among wolves, you gotta be a step ahead of them.
Corrupt will always exist, but to fight and act for the peace and continuity of the realm, in the larger picture, is the correct action. Who's to say the khitan too are not corrupt. If you yourself defect to the side of the khitan, then you find that yourself have become corrupt. Though funnily, these bandits are already corrupt bandits after all.
This was a real treasure. Thank you for recounting this amazing story in an entertaining and easy-to-understand way.
That dude nicknamed Wanderer was a smart one. He smelt something off about this whole “grand reward” from the government and got out quick. Still, a terrible end for our heroes 😢
Good old 'you either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain' trope, and the never ending cycle between good, evil, law and chaos. Thanks for summarizing the Water Margin novel. 👍
A thousand thank you ! I've read (and re-read and re-read) Water Margin, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Journey to the West and Dream of the Red Chamber, in French, translations by scholars from "Institut National Des Langues Et Civilisations Orientales". While they provide lots of fascinating informations on history and culture, they lack the insights about spirituality, beliefs, etc. that your retelling and explanations provided. Thank you again!
"A leopard may change his spots, but the gazelle never forgives." -WBC (after watching this last ep in series).
"Wherever you go-there you are." -Firesign Theater, Voltaire, et al.
I can try to explain the poem a bit more since there were some key words there that were not mentioned.
The loyal are few, the righteous rare
Success in YAN, but the moon's light is dim
When winter start, the flock of geese will disperse
Starting from WU ending in CHU
Official fortune is returned
This YAN (燕) is a pretty old and fancy way to refer to the Northern part of China. Essentially this is saying that Song Jiang will succeed in the fight against the Khitan Liao, but the outlook still looks dim.
Then we have the WU and the CHU (吴, 楚). The usage here is pretty similar. This is saying Song Jiang started in the WU region, and will "end" (i.e. die) in the CHU region.
Congrats on the series finale
8:31 The translation of 'Dukkha' as 'suffering' is still highly debatable here in Indonesia/Indonesian speakers. There are if I am not mistaken no perfect english word that could represent and translate the word 'Dukkha' accurately, but overall, I am very thankful to see your amazing videos, teacher! Keep up the great work! 🎉😊👍
And there has yet to be a timeline where Song Jiang should have rebelled... an endearing classic tragedy of being a historical fiction epic portraying the lessons and the misgivings of fraternity and injustice
Claim your tickets here! Place your bets on who dies first!
I think a Special should go to one of fang la's top main *Shi Bao*
Man went on manslaughter killing 5 stars of destiny and damaging bandits morale before committing suicide during castle breach
They should have accepted the Khitans proposal. In reality the Khitans kicked Song butts and took their names. But at least the Jurchens avenged them.
Its a wish fulfilment fantasy...so, it was written like this.
The jurchen humiliated the song worse than the khitan with Jiangkang incident
The story of the Song is one of making Deals with the Devil. First, it was with the Jurchens against the Khitans, then it was with the Mongols against the Jurchens. Neither ended well.
Throughout the saga, I found Chai Jin and Wu Yong to be my favorite members! Nonetheless, this ensemble cast has been a thrill to follow. I feel in the end, their role as outcasts turned heroes immortalized them, while the corrupt ministers get to be remembered for being pivotal to the end of the Northern Song dynasty!
6:40 I didn't finished the video yet, but it seems the message meaning is "Becoming evil is too easy, but is better to keep doing acts of good, because in the moment the evildoers are gone you would be rewarded for your good deeds and honesty".
8:45 "When the evildoers are gone you might still in trouble, prepared yourself for the worse and relay on someone you can trust enough"
In the Podcast I've was listening they explained Lin Chong surname can mean "double wood" or "forest", coincidence?
9:00 Help Xia and La take prisoners and maybe ask for a ransom or exchange hostages, and wait until the one they send gives him a signal to act, probably Lin Chong at this point.
9:50 Do you know how many chapters has the oldest version of Water Margin? It could help to see which version is the "original" and what was a later an add on. It could be the older versions where longer than later releases, but is just speculation of someone with little knowledge on chinese literature. (Funny how no version has exactly 108 chapters).
18:30 Maybe I was wrong. Very wrong.
23:00 I think a reason why many people didn't like the ending because no one won here. Did the 108 outlaws really got redempted? None of the Stars got rewarded from their actions, and the Empire fell out anyway. Maybe was intended to have a much happier ending where all of them got their redemption, but how things turned out in real life it was changed to a more downer one. It was because the Emperor is based on turned out to be so bad from listening the wrong people? Or it was meant to warn the dangerous of blind faith into the goverment and the loyalty to something which cause more harm than good?
Is not surprise it didn't left anyone indifferent.
Song Jiang should seek Galadriel if Mystic Lady go on vacation~
As a kid reading this novel, the poison wine scene was the most memorable. Scenes related to Wu Song keep getting brought up in the media. But the wine scene, which people never seem to mention, is the first scene I recall when I hear about the book, all these years after
The moral of the story is: Better men can be overcome by lesser ones. But the consolation is, they're gonna get what's coming to them one way or the other. So, better be remembered as a "Hao han" than a spineless coward.
I can see why one might not like the ending of Water Margin. The best endings for the 108 are the ones who manage to leave while they still could. One of them even gets to be King of Siam. Most of the people receiving titles from the court would have short lives. The big four corrupt officials never get any kind of comeuppance. In fact the only comeuppance is if you know the Northern Song Dynasty gets its teeth kicked shortly after the novel. And Song Jiang probably didn't want to see that happen.
I wonder if the idea of not following people blindly even applies to Song Jiang himself. After all, he ended up leading many of the stars to their deaths in the final campaign.
Also it's funny reading the full 120 chapter version and seeing the disconnect between the filler rebels and the final campaign. Although that could be because I read the English translation of the 120 chapter version by John and Alex Dent-Young. In that version it's pretty clear Song Jiang is acting as if the filler rebels didn't exist during the final campaign.
They should take the offer of the Khitan Emperor when they had a chance. Not only that the Jin dynasty might not rise but they may be treated well as actual people.
The ending of Water Margin reminded me of Attack on Titan in some ways. What do you think?
Here is the thing, who says the Khitan emperor wouldn't have done the same? Many political leaders tend to remove military factions who help them to gain power because they know how dangerous they can be since they could rebeled agaisnt them in the future.
@@nidohime6233 He probably has more ways to keep them in line without needing to turn on them, such as sending them to conquer Song lands and rewarding them with titles and governorships to them. More importantly, the promise of sating their revenge against the corrupt Guo Jia clique would be too much a temptation for the vast majority of the gang. Besides which, attrition will claim the lives of many of the heroes, diminishing their threat to the Liao.
In the end, having them defect for real and even succeed in exacting their revenge would make for an interesting tale. It might end 'happily', in the sense that they're now able to live comfortable lives as Liao generals and governors, but at what cost, having sold out their own countrymen to subjugation by a barbarian empire out of vengeance against their corrupt government?
I felt bad that they didn't let these guys succeed at the end of the story when you did the big overview
Then you actually did the summary and I found out what these guys actually DID
And now I just feel sad in general
"dragon explodes into clay shrapnel"
Deidara, is that you ?
Great storytelling and introduction of the Chinese worldview to the English speaking world! Do 红楼梦 next! XD
Im a bit late but i think the message that Water Margin wants to tell us is that actions have follow-ups.
Even tho many of the characters have become outlaws unwilingly, they still decided to join the group by themselves. Thats not even mentioning what the others like Li Kui have done.
You may not have action over the events themselves, you can still control their aftermath. This is kinda like Stoicism, where it teaches you life is is a compicated web of decisions predestined by the heavens but you still have autonomy when it comes to choosing your path. All you need is to analyse every decision in front of you and think of the outcome. Often the less obvious choice may be the one that will give you a good ending
An example in the novel is Jian deciding to ask for amnesty from the imperial goverment. While it would seem natural to go with their outlaw style, it was SJ's idea that got them to have a happy ending even if the 4 officials werent punished for their misdeeds. If anything, they could have ended like La if they rebeled, killed and their names being forgotten.
So tldr of my comment: do not think of the choice, think of the aftermath
I guess romance of the 3 kingdoms is luo guanzhong redemption for the lack luster ending of water margin
Ming dynasty origins let's go !!!
I am glad to have watched this; thanks so much CJ and all our cool bros. \m/
This ending really hurt....
Ahhh, I don't know if I could ever write my own water margin, but, the idea would make a really cool setting for a video game or even a more wuxia-fable themed DND game I think.
So I might go with the latter, haven't had a nice politically charged D&D game in awhile.
good timing bro the long wait is worth it
after this please make a goryeo video thanks
I feel the Battle Network Reboot would take elements from The Water Margins character wise but more like The Seven Samurai story wise.
Learning something like it’s also a greatest inspiration stuff but the problem is that each society tend to have different ideas therefore it’s going to be hard
Is there any reason why Shi nai an only write 70 chapter? and it is consider complete when 108 star gathered(ch70)? Like CJ said the rest of redemption arc is writen by Luo Guanzhong or some confucian writters who think it not fit with confucian ideal.
Is just a theory among scholars, but even today no one knows why the tone of the story was changed. It could have started as a bunch of folktales where Shi Nai An tried to match together to make it more sense, but once he started to write the rest of the story it felt flat.
Plus Shi Jin becomes more capable & maybe a central character since he gets Kengan’d or Jobbified
I'm of the opinion that chapters 71-100 were written by someone else, if only because the tone is so drastically different. I'm definitely on Team Cautionary Tale, as I've interpreted the last thirty chapters as a satire, much like Don Quixote. Frank Herbert's Dune is basically a warning against charismatic and messianic figureheads, and Water Margin--at least the last third--is a warning in that same vein. Loyalty is all well and good, but blind loyalty only burns you in the end. Of course, the bandits being bandits, maybe this was the best they could've hoped for. It's always a great discussion with no right or wrong answers.
Well, except for the "lol it was all a dream" ending that Lu Junyin had, but we don't discuss that.
It MIGHT as well be Non-Canon, if it's not written by the OG Author.
It does feel they changed it to a very different route of what is hinted previously on the first 70 chapters. No wonder so many scholars think the rest of the novel was a written by another author.
Could it be there was a different ending to the story before it was censured in later centuries? Maybe the original author died before finishing their work?
@@nidohime6233 It's definitely a solid theory. Yes, there's lots of violence, but worse than that is sedition. A novel glorifying bandits that overthrow an empire? Or even the Emperor's ministers? No way was that ever going to fly.
You are way too underrated
Thanks.
Great I love it
Even Gods people are powerless against corrupt evil politicians 😭 and foolish emperor got what he deserved at least
Gongsun sheng prove to be the greatest character among the stars without him the band didn't last long
Can you do the Journey to the West please!!!
When are you gonna talk about the yuan dynasty
also what other novels you recommend
Rebel again after defeating the khitan
Not related, but can you do a video about why while 3 kingdoms era is very famous with a lot of characters, 5 dynasties and 10 kingdoms era is really niche and very unknown, what is main cause for this?
It's just because of the literature. Romance of the Three Kingdoms made it popular. Just like how only the Roman empire of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra's time was popular in the English speaking countries, because Shakespeare wrote plays about it. Meanwhile, the Byzantine or Eastern Roman empire was mostly ignored by English speakers.
@@CoolHistoryBros True, also the language barrier is a huge obstacle for great works. Many people are missing so many great stories because of the lack of an official translation.
Please do what is meant by a manly man based on the novel
I would be most curious to see what the last third of the novel would look like if Shi Nai'an had finished writing it. It's a shame that apparently it loses a lot of its wit and charm there, and becomes a very dull and dreary rundown of military campaigns, even if the intent is to teach a cautionary tale about blind loyalty to people who don't deserve it. Which does tie into themes of how an utterly corrupt society is cruel to straightforward, honest and good willed people, which were brought up earlier, quite nicely.
Not even scholars are sure if the two writers theory is true. There has being cases where a story goes an entire different direction of what it was intended because the writer say so. We would never know.
Finally.
what water margin called in Chinese? three kingdom named sanguokushi what water margin?
Romance of the 3 Kingdoms - 三国演义 Sānguó Yǎnyì
Water Margin - 水浒传 - Shuǐhǔ zhuàn
I want to turn this book into a jrpg so bad
We got Suikoden.
If it's Written by Netflix, they should call it "108", & make a Cinematic Universe Out of it.
Actually I think they already said there is gonna be a Water Margin adaptation for Netflix.
@@nidohime6233 but 108 sounds like an Edgy name do.
@@conradojavier7547 The closest I know Hero 108, a Cartoon Network series. Is far from edgy thou.
It would be easy to take Robin Hood & Ivanhoe and make it chinese.
so... with how sad the Drakengard and NieR Series went, I suppose Yoko Taro heavily followed Suikoden 🥲
Heroes who got "happy" endings:
Gongsun Sheng, lived as he always had before he met Chao Gai
Guan Sheng, died in a horse accident
Wu Song, lost an arm but lived to the age of 80
Li Jun, deserted and became the king of Siam
Ruan Xiaoqi, was removed from office by the villains, but he didn't mind and returned to being a fisherman
Yan Qing, deserted
Dong Wei and Dong Meng, deserted and followed Li Jun
Song Qing, was rewarded for his brother's contributions. His son grew up to be a government official (basically the author tried to give Song Jiang a consolation prize)
Chai Jin, Li Ying, Dai Zong, Zhu Wu, Pei Xuan, Yang Lin, Jiang Jing, Fan Rui, Mu Chun, Du Xing, Zou Run, Cai Qing, Sun Li, Sun Xin and Gu Dasao resigned from offices and lived as civilians, some refused to accept the positions in the first place
Zhu Dong, Huang Xin, Xiao Rang, Ling Zhen, An Daoquan, Huangfu Duan, Jin Dajian and Yue He continued working for the government
I think Lu Zhishen (Lu Da) should counted since he lived and died as he wished and achieved enlightment
He also happens to one of the few characters with consistent moral code and resisted goverment corruption
And Huyan Zhuo would eventually die fighting against the Jurchen Jin
Li Jun's fate was the weirdest to me lol. Dude just decided to bail one day and somehow became the ruler of another country
Wait. One of them became king of Ancient Thailand?
@@life_is_a_myth That is very weird, Thailand or Siam or the very concept of it isn't exist around that time.
the take from this story is: the Song Dynasty government was corrupt to the core, it was impossible to prop up. no matter how many heroes worked to save it, it would crumble eventually.
same as Liu Chan's Shu Kingdom. even though supported by many smart strategists and brave generals, when the leadership is weak, those heroes couldn't save the kingdom.
but if a leader is strong, he will motivate and inspire those who work under him to work even better than their original capacity.
Gotta kill em all 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Your ability to provide context while keeping the story moving is unparalleled
Another great series. Looking forward to other classical Chinese and maybe other Asian novels or epics.
With this you have covered three of the four great Chinese novels only Dream of the Red Chamber is left
I don't think he has covered Journey to the West yet.
@@zetareticulan321 He did a couple of videos on Xuanzang, the historical inspiration for the Tang Priest/Tripitaka. Since the video maker is a Cool History Bro, he focused of that which was real and historical in Journey to the West rather than the fictional and mythological parts which make up the bulk of that story.
Thank You for another great series, would you consider doing a series on Fengshen Yanyi or Investiture of the Gods of the gods in the future?
This sounds more of a criticism about blind loyalty which reminds me a lot of the ending of Three Kingdom. Putting false hope or faith could be another one, hoping the emperor took the correct action even though its unlikely. The characters shady action might've been another criticism to its society.
And here I thought ROTK was sad.
Water Margin takes treachery and tragedy to another level.
tbh Song Jiang and the gang lived died achieving their dreams at a cost, RTTK in middle hits you hard with Liu Bei slow downfal after death of guan yu and even after he entrusted his kingdom to the talented Zhuge liang, he still couldn't save his kingdom from it's fate due it's corrput officials and eunches
so you left reading other half with nothing but the failures and slow delcine of a kingdoms our "heroes" built over half novel only to have squashed by their incompetant decendants
I want to believe in the future downfall of Song dynasty, the outcasts reincarnated as Jurchens, while Song Jiang became a horse. They become better men (plus horse) & battle the corrupt officials. Bringing back their old techniques & skills. While Song Jiang becomes a selfless-TRUE hero, sacrificing himself for his bros & meeting Lu Zhisen as buddhas or Devas IDK. That’s what’s rolling in my imagination.
Moral of the story: No good deed is left unpunished.
Oh man, this was good, what comes next?!
The final campaign was really what one would term a Pyrrhic victory. Despite his victory, Song Jiang lost majority of his brethren, and ultimately fell victim to the wiles of evil ministers. In fact, it could be argued that the war against Fang La was something that not only hurt each other badly, but was a war that neither Song Jiang nor Fang La really wanted.
How about showcasing each of the 108 stars and their most salient characteristics?
That would be a good idea.
Second that. Following this series for 8 episodes seemed to soon to end it here, I wish we have more of these heroes/bandits!
Lets go fifth comment
You are the best history channel on RUclips by far through your storytelling and animations. Keep it up!
Final episode is the best because of the mirror match battle.
What is the title "water margin" mean and how the words related to story?
Well its difficult to explain, but in English translation the novel is called Outlaws of the Marsh since the 108 stars of destiny and their HQ are located in Mt Liang a real life mountain in Shandong China, during the Song Dynasty era that place was a nest and a hideout of many bandit groups. The area itself surrounding the mountain was a marshland which also provides a good natural defense for the outlaws.
In Indonesian translation of Confucius' sayings and Analects, there are two wise people: "Arif" (discerning, learned, capable) and "bijaksana" (prudent, discreet, tactful, sensible).
It is used to compare two officials from the Spring and Autumn period. The king has two wise officials: the first one is said to be "arif" - when the situation is great, he carries the royal order and commands the royal's might. When the situation is grim, he gives straight advice and stern warnings to the King as if the kingdom in peril is his. The second one is said to be "bijaksana" - when the situaton is great, he joins the government, contributing and serving in his capacity and within his competency. When the situation is grim, he resigned and withdraw from notoriety living in recluse without ambition, avoiding all unnecessary trouble, bidding his time to return to a worthy ruler.
Asian wisdom really feels like a fecal stain that refuses to be wiped about until your anus bleeds. It is annoying as hell but it is the simple reality. As a kid growing in westernised education, this Confucian ethos is very difficult to accept when compared to American import cartoon where there is only good guy vs bad guy, and they are always taking action. Lincolnite "to sin by silence" is pretty clear and very easy to understood. But then, as I grew up, judging "right or wrong" is actually much more difficult than it seems - and yes, "it is, and as has always been, a much simpler times back then". So it is only recently that I never resented the ending of typical East Asian classics.
Fantastic work! Loved the whole novel arcs! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
So this is where you went CJ! I was wondering what happened with the dnd videos you use to make and what you went to do! Sorry if this is old news already.
I think it also influenced the ending of the movie "Hero". But this story is much better!
Well, that was depressing... 😢
17:07 This feels like Naruto
Very cool, thank you
They should have joined the Khitans! Imagine Li Kui fighting for nomads and stuff... Too bad Song Jiang was blindly loyal in an empire with a corrupted court
Nah, joining the Khitan would've been a worse choice for Song Jiang. It could only save his life but not his brothers (since they still have to go to war nonetheless). And he and his brothers would be remembered as traitors. Everyone dies eventually, what important is how they'll be remembered.
Thanks for the story CJ!
周 zhou