So originally I wasn't planning on making a video or even talking about this community post on stream, but as I thought about it I figured this would be a great way to ask questions and generate discussion with all of you. Maybe this is something we can turn into a series, this video is barebones and basic because, well, I wasn't planning on making this into a video in the first place. In the future we can definitely make this more refined, but let me know if you like the concept of a video like this! Now I'm just gonna link to the thing because I'm too lazy to segue into it twitch.tv/sesujin
Maybe you should make a tier list video with some guest? (I don’t know, maybe rainbow neos or a pro player ?) We have this kind of debate video in our french youtube. (And there is no cut, no other feature, as a replay video)
@@ahbahouaimaisbon7770 I do have a tier list video coming out soon. I need to re-record some of it because the recording stopped in the middle of the video, but I think I'll have it out before frosty faustings next week.
Even tho I’m Lidia (Raijin) main I still chosen mid to low tier but as you were saying it’s only because I was judging her through lens of how I play her not overall
Dispite what others may say, tiers and strength are almost entirely subjective. In every game, people have been wrong about characters being strong AND weak. Look at Akuma/Geese as an example from Tekken 7. No one is right or wrong about character placement in modern fighting games since they're very well balanced (usually, looking at you swift master), it's all a matter of opinion and perspective (though there can be some exceptions on the upper and lower end of lists, of course).
I personally think she's A Tier and has great tools but she has clear weaknesses as well. I'd be interested to see what kind of buffs you would personally give Lidia if it was up to you.
I've been asked this a lot, and the buff I think would be the most reasonable and sensible buff to Lidia would be making WLF 3,1 i14 instead of i17. The reason is that currently, there is no move in WLF that beats power crush after HRS 4 is blocked or CAT 4 hits except for WLF 4. Even WLF 2 loses to power crush, and the entire stance loses to rage art. WLF 4 being the only way to beat power crush after taking a big risk by using HRS 4 or CAT 4 makes very little sense to me, you're left launch punishable and you don't even get anything extra off of it. Then, the entire purpose behind WLF 3,1 is to be your primary CH tool in WLF, but without it being natural what sense does it make to do over WLF 2? The intended design of the move serves little to no purpose, and Lidia really needs a way to beat power crush in WLF. Using WLF 3,1 to instead be a direct response to power crush and rage art would change and improve the dynamic of ALL of her stances, and fall in line with a lot of other characters' stances that lost completely to power crush (see King and Steve), while being a completely reasonable change that wouldn't dramatically change Lidia's gameplay or be completely busted.
Great vid, at the end of the day. I'm just glad she's back cuz she was done so wrong at the end of 7's life cycle and was so glad they gave her a second chance and made her better. Here's to hoping they continue to make her look good!
Thank you! I'm really happy with Lidia in Tekken 8, she's the best designed character in the game imo, really feels like I'm playing proper Tekken 8 but also playing a character that feels totally unique. They did a great job with her!
It’s so true that it takes time. I was so frustrated the first few weeks of playing her and thought I would have to drop her but kept going and now she is my highest ranked character!!
This may just be me, but since she is so difficult to pilot, I had to learn to be more defensive. I really appreciate how honest she is to navigate once you learn her, but she was really good at helping me learn that such a mixup heavy character I have to know when to use those mixups, and if I'm struggling to do them, I need to play defensive. It really has upped my defense game because of her!
Absolutely! I see a lot of people who don't play Lidia say the opposite, but the majority of the time when I see those players they really struggle in the matchup. Against someone who knows the matchup well, Lidia requires insane fundamental skill to pilot well. That's one of the things that I find really fun about her, and one of the reasons I say she's a great beginner character.
I think important part is that (at least in my eyes) even the bottom tier characters are not bad characters, in case of T8 they are probably just the most balanced (having clear weaknesses and strengths). The top10's skew the picture big time, but the rest of the cast is pretty good and a lot closer in power to each other. A good player can make any character shine for sure, but if you have a good player with great knowledge, execution, reads and being able to do more work with a character with bigger weaknesses to utilize their tools and win - they would do even better on more consistent and safer characters with more/better tools. There's a way to deal with every of her weaknesses, but also if all of your decisions are right it doesn't even matter which character you play. That's just how it is. Having said that Mangja beat Mulgold on Lidia recently so it also doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't try to do it on a characters with less/worse tools, because you clearly can. So in a vacuum I think she's probably bottom 10-15, especially if we don't factor knowledge, execution and so on (a great player in a vacuum will statistically do better on a greater character in a vacuum). Although even not in a vacuum, mitigating weaknesses still takes mental stack room and I guess pro players would love to have it as free from character-specific adjustments as possible. But in the end I'd say it doesn't matter that much. Online the tiers don't matter at all, and even offline you can still clearly win on anything, as fundamentally - especially with how well balanced modern fighting games are - it's a player vs player game more than a char vs char game. I do believe tho that dedicated specialists/loyalists will show us a lot about underappreciated characters later on in T8 lifespan. Characters like Raven, Zafina, Steve, Leeroy, Leo and Lee (some of them also pretty difficult to pilot) have a lot of untapped potential.
For me personally, I would not be able to perform better with better characters (like dragunov) if I spent the same amount of time and effort on them. I know if I was as strong with Drag as I am with Lidia, I would play worse using Drag. I need to be able to enjoy a character to play them well, and the only top tier character I enjoy playing is Yoshi (I've been a Yoshi player since I was 5). Are there a lot of people who don't need that? Absolutely, but for me, I would never be able to perform as well with charaters like Feng, Nina, Law, or Claudio as I do with Lidia. And it's like you said the nice thing about modern fighting games, and even Tekken 8, is that the games are so well balanced you don't have to consider tiers anymore. There's no character in T8 that's like, say, T6 Zafina. I should know because I main Tira and on release in SC6 she was considered competitively unviable, but despite how bad people may say some characters are in this game, no one comes even remotely close to that, which is great!
@@sesujin Yeah, that's the crux of it I guess. Most tier lists have to be very broad like "here are characters that on paper have better tools", and there's so much more that goes into playing a character than just their spreadsheet. Like Yoshi on paper is insane in this game, placed top 3 in most tier lists and super annoying to deal with, and yet when it came to the high level tournaments most of what we've heard of him in that one match where Farzeen denied Ulsan in the end of the year. And this is probably true for less specialists characters as well. On top of the fact its just season 1 of a fighting game: many things are gonna be adjusted, changed, discovered and so on, and specialists will gain more knowledge and start to pop up on major events as well (like Shadow20z with his Zafina in the second half of the year). In the end of the day "someone who works hard can never beat someone who enjoys himself" :D
I love Lidia, I think she is so much fun and I'm 100% dedicated to my queen. She barely has any lows and that really hurts my mixups, but when her ff2,2 hits and you get a wall splash thats an easy 70% combo, if not a perfect game. Lidia is all about the mind games and getting your opponents to think a certain way, and make sure you adapt to those changes as quickly as they do.
Absolutely, and that's what I love about Lidia. They really made her out to play more like a VF or SC character, and they achived that spectacularly well!
hi sesujin, im a big fan of your videos. in recent testing i found the d1+2 is now -12 on block as opposed to plus 6, was this shadow nerfed or am i doing it wrong? im talking about after you do the wallsplat f4,3,1
Hello, I'm glad you enjoy the videos! The reason it's coming out as -12 is because the d1+2 can hit on frame 18 and frame 19. If the move gets blocked later in the animation, in this case on frame 19 instead of frame 18, then you will recover faster and be less punishable since you are no longer recovering from the move on that frame. I hope that makes sense!
The thing is, play neutral with what? a Df1 that has no range and is -5 on block? a jab with no range? A 15 frame -5 on a hit low with no range? A 17f launch punishable low with no range and locks you into a stance? A 18 frame low? That's -4 on hit? with, Say it with me now. No range? Play neutral with what? She has no neutral. She is not rewarded for playing neutral cause she has none. That's why she's bad! And then to top it all off when you punish with her, You can't even enforce mix-ups because they have so much push back! Her mix-ups are garbage simply because you can SSR duck All but one of her moves from horse. Same thing with cat! And then when you even get the stray poke to hit, your frames are garbage. You don't get anything! Plus more pushback!
And then if you want to lock your opponent down with homing moves because your character is so weak to stepping, you don't even get the luxury of having good homing moves. B4 goes nowhere. Db3 also goes nowhere. And Df3+4 Is like 22 frames long! And literally none of moves track any direction
@AXOLY1143 i have found b4 pretty useful because of its CH property. And db3 its only good once you have conditioned the oponent not to press against ff2... but its risky, yeah
Yes, absolutely! Lidia has some of the best neutral tools in the game. Being able to threaten heat engager by dasing and doing d2, or stopping movement with political storm is so strong when you use those tools right.
To me this character is straight bottom tier. No poking at all. No range at all. Not even a frame trap from ff2 like Reina has. Ff2 is only +5. The fastest move from horse is a 16 frame high. Did I also mention that almost every single move from horse is beaten by a simple side step right duck? The only mid that tracks that way is horse 3+4! A move almost no one uses cuz it's so slow! She also has the worst lows in the game by far! Db3 is a 17f launch punishable low with just the worst range in the game. D3 is a 15f -5 on HIT launch punishable low. D2 is 18f -4 on hit and -14 on block! All of the stance lows other than cat 4 are launch punishable. Her counter hits are okay but if you want to play a good counter hit character, play Bryan or Lee or Steve or literally any other character. And people say her punishment is good but I can't really see that, 1,2,2 is launch punishable for no reason! And has pretty big pushback. 2,2 also has really big pushback for no reason. And Pushback is so much worse for Lidia cuz she wants to be in your face. And both of those moves lock you into stance. You can't cancel it like any other stance character ever! Something I hate about this character is that almost every major move that she has locks you into stance. You don't have a choice. that feels bad! like really bad to play! Like imagine if Lidia was like lei or zafina where you could choose just to get more frames into stance or be safer in case they block it. She would have much better flow to her stances! She also has literally no homing! It hurts even more because none of her moves track! Almost every move in her kit can be stepped to the right. B4 has no range. Db3 has no range and is launch punishable. And Df3+4 is so damn slow. You can't even be cool like in the last game and use her parries in combos anymore. She sucks in this game and it hurts me so much because she's so cool.
And I understand your take on her being a pretty hard character and having to have a lot of character knowledge. But the thing is, if that's the case, I'm much better off picking a character like Dragonov or Bryan because those characters will get me so much farther with the same knowledge. They're so much stronger than her
I think she is very well balanced in a game full of very poorly balanced characters. To say she's top 10 while drag, jin, yoshi, nina, feng, law, claudio, shaheen alisa etc exist is madness imo. But like top 20 is believable
I'm with you. She has a lot of potential, but the top 7 in this game are so overtuned, and the rest of the top 10 isn't far behind. It's difficult for any character to break in there unless they are unequivocally broken.
I really like Lidia but she has too clear and constant counter play to make her top tier. In my opinion that means she is a pretty well built character. I think she is B teir the fights I had with Nina can show you that lol.
"Lidia's stances look complicated, but it's actually easy! You can just press the 4 button and hit the opponent with your stances!" -Michael Murray during the Lidia preview
That's true, it's just not in the same way that I'm trying to convey. When Steve does stuff like go lion heart into sway, it's kinda like Lidia going from WLF to HRS, but with Steve it's also typically used more defensively than aggressively. Lidia is more about using the stance as a way to mixup from outside the stance, as well as inside the stance. I hope that makes sense, I don't quite know how to phrase it right now.
I think Lidia forces the pilot to play Lidia and not Tekken, but for the first time in a long time playing the character feels harder than playing JUST Tekken (in terms of making plays)
That's one of the things I love about her! I'm a SoulCalibur player, and EVERY character in SC6 is so complicated and unique that it feels like you're playing a completely different game when you use them. That's one of the things I love the most about SC6, and Lidia gives me that same feeling.
Tbf why wouldn't you, ch heat engage, ch launch, you have an armor option, 1+2 high crushes and ch launches,its steppabable but ive personally locked people down with F 3,4 to keep them from doing so, and because of the fear of ff2, I can throw in wr1 to frame trap opponents because they dont want to duck, and if they press you get a garunteed heat engage and if not you run your stance mixup off of Cat, if anything I think using your ff2 in neutral is a good check too see how to handle your opponent, and what tools you need to use to either open them up or roll them. Even canceling the stance off of Ff2 and using B1 and Db3 is a good way to run your game and gather information. But I could be wrong at the end of the day, if you have any reasons I shouldn't use ff2 as liberal as I have been im more than happy to pick your brain on different ways of playing the character.
She's Bottom Tier or Lower Mid Tier. The Letter style tier lists reduce the importance of ranking charscters in order of Strongest to Weakest. If you have a Top 5 then it's only obvious that you'll have a Bottom 5 as well. Make a tier list in order (it's lazy not to the characters in order) and allow and divide the groups by five. That's when you'll see where she stands. She's the coolest female character they've made, though.
Honestly I don't think you can make an ordered tier list in this game. There are so many variables that can change characters placement on a tier list that it becomes impossible to accurately evaluate every character in a vacuum, and even if you did it it wouldn't be relevant in a real match scenario. Matchups are so much more important in this game, with characters like Leo having i11 WS heat engagers to shut down key lows of character who rely on them like Claudio, or unique tools like Yoshi's flash being so much more devistating on characters who already have a hard time dealing with it like Hwoarang because of the momentum shift. Even stages have a great impact on how strong a character is, a character like Bryan is so much more powerful on a stage like underground arena with wall gimmicks coupled with his wall oki as opposed to colosseum or even urban square. Lidia is the same, any stage that has a floor break is terrible for her, but stages that are smaller and without any stage gimmicks are great and make her much stronger. On a stage like genmaji temple, for example, Lidia has a huge advantage over bryan. I think these factors make it simply impossible for to accurately devise an ordered tier list for this game.
I don't think she's low tier I think she's like mid-tier to be honest nobody in this game really sucks everybody is pretty strong there's a couple of exceptions for a couple of characters but majority of the cast is a lot easier than their previous versions
I feel she's mid-tier or mid/low tier. Nicely balanced with clear weaknessess, takes brain to have any success with her and I like that. HOWEVER, she has some absolutely horrible matchups like Kazuya in which she becomes trash tier, making her nigh unviable for tourney use as your only character.
I've found over time that her bad matchups aren't nearly as horrendous as I previously thought, but there are some absolutely terrible matchups for Lidia in this game, Jin and Steve being 2 of them.
@@sesujin As a Steve Main Lidia seems to have serious issues against him as several of her big +Mids can lead to situations where she gets Launched for trying to continue Pressure if the Steve Player takes a Backdash + Manual Lionheart. Steve can't Lionheart for free on her +Frames, but if the Lidia is not aware of her Spacing when making the Opponent Block a +Mid he can just escape even at -8. And it's not like Yoshi Flash where you can just Bait and Launch. If the Lidia Player Spaces poorly or has poor recognition Steve is immune to her +Frames. Combine that with Steve's great Tracking, impeccable Close Range Game, Lidia's lack of High Evasiveness, and Steve's compact playstyle with few openings and Lidia can struggle heavily.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
So originally I wasn't planning on making a video or even talking about this community post on stream, but as I thought about it I figured this would be a great way to ask questions and generate discussion with all of you. Maybe this is something we can turn into a series, this video is barebones and basic because, well, I wasn't planning on making this into a video in the first place. In the future we can definitely make this more refined, but let me know if you like the concept of a video like this! Now I'm just gonna link to the thing because I'm too lazy to segue into it twitch.tv/sesujin
Maybe you should make a tier list video with some guest? (I don’t know, maybe rainbow neos or a pro player ?)
We have this kind of debate video in our french youtube.
(And there is no cut, no other feature, as a replay video)
@@ahbahouaimaisbon7770 I do have a tier list video coming out soon. I need to re-record some of it because the recording stopped in the middle of the video, but I think I'll have it out before frosty faustings next week.
Even tho I’m Lidia (Raijin) main I still chosen mid to low tier but as you were saying it’s only because I was judging her through lens of how I play her not overall
Dispite what others may say, tiers and strength are almost entirely subjective. In every game, people have been wrong about characters being strong AND weak. Look at Akuma/Geese as an example from Tekken 7. No one is right or wrong about character placement in modern fighting games since they're very well balanced (usually, looking at you swift master), it's all a matter of opinion and perspective (though there can be some exceptions on the upper and lower end of lists, of course).
I personally think she's A Tier and has great tools but she has clear weaknesses as well.
I'd be interested to see what kind of buffs you would personally give Lidia if it was up to you.
I've been asked this a lot, and the buff I think would be the most reasonable and sensible buff to Lidia would be making WLF 3,1 i14 instead of i17. The reason is that currently, there is no move in WLF that beats power crush after HRS 4 is blocked or CAT 4 hits except for WLF 4. Even WLF 2 loses to power crush, and the entire stance loses to rage art. WLF 4 being the only way to beat power crush after taking a big risk by using HRS 4 or CAT 4 makes very little sense to me, you're left launch punishable and you don't even get anything extra off of it. Then, the entire purpose behind WLF 3,1 is to be your primary CH tool in WLF, but without it being natural what sense does it make to do over WLF 2? The intended design of the move serves little to no purpose, and Lidia really needs a way to beat power crush in WLF. Using WLF 3,1 to instead be a direct response to power crush and rage art would change and improve the dynamic of ALL of her stances, and fall in line with a lot of other characters' stances that lost completely to power crush (see King and Steve), while being a completely reasonable change that wouldn't dramatically change Lidia's gameplay or be completely busted.
Id personally like her old moves again
Great vid, at the end of the day. I'm just glad she's back cuz she was done so wrong at the end of 7's life cycle and was so glad they gave her a second chance and made her better. Here's to hoping they continue to make her look good!
Thank you! I'm really happy with Lidia in Tekken 8, she's the best designed character in the game imo, really feels like I'm playing proper Tekken 8 but also playing a character that feels totally unique. They did a great job with her!
It’s so true that it takes time. I was so frustrated the first few weeks of playing her and thought I would have to drop her but kept going and now she is my highest ranked character!!
That's awesome man, dedication really goes a long way with her!
This may just be me, but since she is so difficult to pilot, I had to learn to be more defensive. I really appreciate how honest she is to navigate once you learn her, but she was really good at helping me learn that such a mixup heavy character I have to know when to use those mixups, and if I'm struggling to do them, I need to play defensive. It really has upped my defense game because of her!
Absolutely! I see a lot of people who don't play Lidia say the opposite, but the majority of the time when I see those players they really struggle in the matchup. Against someone who knows the matchup well, Lidia requires insane fundamental skill to pilot well. That's one of the things that I find really fun about her, and one of the reasons I say she's a great beginner character.
Did you ever get the chance to see Mangja’s Lidia vs Mulgold? hype set.
I did! It was fun to watch, I love seeing Lidia in tournament!
I think important part is that (at least in my eyes) even the bottom tier characters are not bad characters, in case of T8 they are probably just the most balanced (having clear weaknesses and strengths). The top10's skew the picture big time, but the rest of the cast is pretty good and a lot closer in power to each other.
A good player can make any character shine for sure, but if you have a good player with great knowledge, execution, reads and being able to do more work with a character with bigger weaknesses to utilize their tools and win - they would do even better on more consistent and safer characters with more/better tools. There's a way to deal with every of her weaknesses, but also if all of your decisions are right it doesn't even matter which character you play.
That's just how it is.
Having said that Mangja beat Mulgold on Lidia recently so it also doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't try to do it on a characters with less/worse tools, because you clearly can.
So in a vacuum I think she's probably bottom 10-15, especially if we don't factor knowledge, execution and so on (a great player in a vacuum will statistically do better on a greater character in a vacuum). Although even not in a vacuum, mitigating weaknesses still takes mental stack room and I guess pro players would love to have it as free from character-specific adjustments as possible.
But in the end I'd say it doesn't matter that much. Online the tiers don't matter at all, and even offline you can still clearly win on anything, as fundamentally - especially with how well balanced modern fighting games are - it's a player vs player game more than a char vs char game.
I do believe tho that dedicated specialists/loyalists will show us a lot about underappreciated characters later on in T8 lifespan. Characters like Raven, Zafina, Steve, Leeroy, Leo and Lee (some of them also pretty difficult to pilot) have a lot of untapped potential.
For me personally, I would not be able to perform better with better characters (like dragunov) if I spent the same amount of time and effort on them. I know if I was as strong with Drag as I am with Lidia, I would play worse using Drag. I need to be able to enjoy a character to play them well, and the only top tier character I enjoy playing is Yoshi (I've been a Yoshi player since I was 5). Are there a lot of people who don't need that? Absolutely, but for me, I would never be able to perform as well with charaters like Feng, Nina, Law, or Claudio as I do with Lidia. And it's like you said the nice thing about modern fighting games, and even Tekken 8, is that the games are so well balanced you don't have to consider tiers anymore. There's no character in T8 that's like, say, T6 Zafina. I should know because I main Tira and on release in SC6 she was considered competitively unviable, but despite how bad people may say some characters are in this game, no one comes even remotely close to that, which is great!
@@sesujin Yeah, that's the crux of it I guess. Most tier lists have to be very broad like "here are characters that on paper have better tools", and there's so much more that goes into playing a character than just their spreadsheet.
Like Yoshi on paper is insane in this game, placed top 3 in most tier lists and super annoying to deal with, and yet when it came to the high level tournaments most of what we've heard of him in that one match where Farzeen denied Ulsan in the end of the year.
And this is probably true for less specialists characters as well.
On top of the fact its just season 1 of a fighting game: many things are gonna be adjusted, changed, discovered and so on, and specialists will gain more knowledge and start to pop up on major events as well (like Shadow20z with his Zafina in the second half of the year).
In the end of the day "someone who works hard can never beat someone who enjoys himself" :D
I love Lidia, I think she is so much fun and I'm 100% dedicated to my queen. She barely has any lows and that really hurts my mixups, but when her ff2,2 hits and you get a wall splash thats an easy 70% combo, if not a perfect game. Lidia is all about the mind games and getting your opponents to think a certain way, and make sure you adapt to those changes as quickly as they do.
Absolutely, and that's what I love about Lidia. They really made her out to play more like a VF or SC character, and they achived that spectacularly well!
hi sesujin, im a big fan of your videos. in recent testing i found the d1+2 is now -12 on block as opposed to plus 6, was this shadow nerfed or am i doing it wrong? im talking about after you do the wallsplat f4,3,1
Hello, I'm glad you enjoy the videos! The reason it's coming out as -12 is because the d1+2 can hit on frame 18 and frame 19. If the move gets blocked later in the animation, in this case on frame 19 instead of frame 18, then you will recover faster and be less punishable since you are no longer recovering from the move on that frame. I hope that makes sense!
It was never +6 on block. It is +6 on hit, -13 on block
thanks for the replies! back to the lab🤓
To me, the Lidia thing is clear:
Just
Play
Neutral
Yo can do it
Yes, it still exist in T8
And some characters like Lidia are rewarded for doing so
The thing is, play neutral with what? a Df1 that has no range and is -5 on block? a jab with no range? A 15 frame -5 on a hit low with no range? A 17f launch punishable low with no range and locks you into a stance? A 18 frame low? That's -4 on hit? with, Say it with me now. No range? Play neutral with what? She has no neutral. She is not rewarded for playing neutral cause she has none. That's why she's bad! And then to top it all off when you punish with her, You can't even enforce mix-ups because they have so much push back! Her mix-ups are garbage simply because you can SSR duck All but one of her moves from horse. Same thing with cat! And then when you even get the stray poke to hit, your frames are garbage. You don't get anything! Plus more pushback!
And then if you want to lock your opponent down with homing moves because your character is so weak to stepping, you don't even get the luxury of having good homing moves. B4 goes nowhere. Db3 also goes nowhere. And Df3+4 Is like 22 frames long! And literally none of moves track any direction
@AXOLY1143 i have found b4 pretty useful because of its CH property. And db3 its only good once you have conditioned the oponent not to press against ff2... but its risky, yeah
Yes, absolutely! Lidia has some of the best neutral tools in the game. Being able to threaten heat engager by dasing and doing d2, or stopping movement with political storm is so strong when you use those tools right.
To me this character is straight bottom tier. No poking at all. No range at all. Not even a frame trap from ff2 like Reina has. Ff2 is only +5. The fastest move from horse is a 16 frame high. Did I also mention that almost every single move from horse is beaten by a simple side step right duck? The only mid that tracks that way is horse 3+4! A move almost no one uses cuz it's so slow! She also has the worst lows in the game by far! Db3 is a 17f launch punishable low with just the worst range in the game. D3 is a 15f -5 on HIT launch punishable low. D2 is 18f -4 on hit and -14 on block! All of the stance lows other than cat 4 are launch punishable. Her counter hits are okay but if you want to play a good counter hit character, play Bryan or Lee or Steve or literally any other character. And people say her punishment is good but I can't really see that, 1,2,2 is launch punishable for no reason! And has pretty big pushback. 2,2 also has really big pushback for no reason. And Pushback is so much worse for Lidia cuz she wants to be in your face. And both of those moves lock you into stance. You can't cancel it like any other stance character ever! Something I hate about this character is that almost every major move that she has locks you into stance. You don't have a choice. that feels bad! like really bad to play! Like imagine if Lidia was like lei or zafina where you could choose just to get more frames into stance or be safer in case they block it. She would have much better flow to her stances! She also has literally no homing! It hurts even more because none of her moves track! Almost every move in her kit can be stepped to the right. B4 has no range. Db3 has no range and is launch punishable. And Df3+4 is so damn slow. You can't even be cool like in the last game and use her parries in combos anymore. She sucks in this game and it hurts me so much because she's so cool.
And I understand your take on her being a pretty hard character and having to have a lot of character knowledge. But the thing is, if that's the case, I'm much better off picking a character like Dragonov or Bryan because those characters will get me so much farther with the same knowledge. They're so much stronger than her
Everything you said is true.
I think she is very well balanced in a game full of very poorly balanced characters. To say she's top 10 while drag, jin, yoshi, nina, feng, law, claudio, shaheen alisa etc exist is madness imo. But like top 20 is believable
I'm with you. She has a lot of potential, but the top 7 in this game are so overtuned, and the rest of the top 10 isn't far behind. It's difficult for any character to break in there unless they are unequivocally broken.
I now know why you insist on this "She is actually top tier" nonsense. She is clearly bottom 10. That makes you the low-tier-god.
All I'm saying is you've never seen me and LTG in the same room...
I really like Lidia but she has too clear and constant counter play to make her top tier. In my opinion that means she is a pretty well built character. I think she is B teir the fights I had with Nina can show you that lol.
Now that I think about it, the resemblance is uncanny...bruh...@@sesujin
Waiting for someone to do a 4 with lidia like the eddy bot lol
"Lidia's stances look complicated, but it's actually easy! You can just press the 4 button and hit the opponent with your stances!" -Michael Murray during the Lidia preview
Steve has stance cancels kinda sorta
That's true, it's just not in the same way that I'm trying to convey. When Steve does stuff like go lion heart into sway, it's kinda like Lidia going from WLF to HRS, but with Steve it's also typically used more defensively than aggressively. Lidia is more about using the stance as a way to mixup from outside the stance, as well as inside the stance. I hope that makes sense, I don't quite know how to phrase it right now.
@@sesujin no I understand now and completely agree!
I think Lidia forces the pilot to play Lidia and not Tekken, but for the first time in a long time playing the character feels harder than playing JUST Tekken (in terms of making plays)
That's one of the things I love about her! I'm a SoulCalibur player, and EVERY character in SC6 is so complicated and unique that it feels like you're playing a completely different game when you use them. That's one of the things I love the most about SC6, and Lidia gives me that same feeling.
This woman is top tier
Most lidia players base their offense around ff 2
Tbf why wouldn't you, ch heat engage, ch launch, you have an armor option, 1+2 high crushes and ch launches,its steppabable but ive personally locked people down with F 3,4 to keep them from doing so, and because of the fear of ff2, I can throw in wr1 to frame trap opponents because they dont want to duck, and if they press you get a garunteed heat engage and if not you run your stance mixup off of Cat, if anything I think using your ff2 in neutral is a good check too see how to handle your opponent, and what tools you need to use to either open them up or roll them.
Even canceling the stance off of Ff2 and using B1 and Db3 is a good way to run your game and gather information.
But I could be wrong at the end of the day, if you have any reasons I shouldn't use ff2 as liberal as I have been im more than happy to pick your brain on different ways of playing the character.
in HEAT she is A+ Without Heat B+
She's Bottom Tier or Lower Mid Tier.
The Letter style tier lists reduce the importance of ranking charscters in order of Strongest to Weakest.
If you have a Top 5 then it's only obvious that you'll have a Bottom 5 as well.
Make a tier list in order (it's lazy not to the characters in order) and allow and divide the groups by five.
That's when you'll see where she stands.
She's the coolest female character they've made, though.
Honestly I don't think you can make an ordered tier list in this game. There are so many variables that can change characters placement on a tier list that it becomes impossible to accurately evaluate every character in a vacuum, and even if you did it it wouldn't be relevant in a real match scenario. Matchups are so much more important in this game, with characters like Leo having i11 WS heat engagers to shut down key lows of character who rely on them like Claudio, or unique tools like Yoshi's flash being so much more devistating on characters who already have a hard time dealing with it like Hwoarang because of the momentum shift. Even stages have a great impact on how strong a character is, a character like Bryan is so much more powerful on a stage like underground arena with wall gimmicks coupled with his wall oki as opposed to colosseum or even urban square. Lidia is the same, any stage that has a floor break is terrible for her, but stages that are smaller and without any stage gimmicks are great and make her much stronger. On a stage like genmaji temple, for example, Lidia has a huge advantage over bryan. I think these factors make it simply impossible for to accurately devise an ordered tier list for this game.
I don't think she's low tier I think she's like mid-tier to be honest nobody in this game really sucks everybody is pretty strong there's a couple of exceptions for a couple of characters but majority of the cast is a lot easier than their previous versions
I feel she's mid-tier or mid/low tier. Nicely balanced with clear weaknessess, takes brain to have any success with her and I like that. HOWEVER, she has some absolutely horrible matchups like Kazuya in which she becomes trash tier, making her nigh unviable for tourney use as your only character.
I've found over time that her bad matchups aren't nearly as horrendous as I previously thought, but there are some absolutely terrible matchups for Lidia in this game, Jin and Steve being 2 of them.
@@sesujin As a Steve Main Lidia seems to have serious issues against him as several of her big +Mids can lead to situations where she gets Launched for trying to continue Pressure if the Steve Player takes a Backdash + Manual Lionheart. Steve can't Lionheart for free on her +Frames, but if the Lidia is not aware of her Spacing when making the Opponent Block a +Mid he can just escape even at -8. And it's not like Yoshi Flash where you can just Bait and Launch. If the Lidia Player Spaces poorly or has poor recognition Steve is immune to her +Frames. Combine that with Steve's great Tracking, impeccable Close Range Game, Lidia's lack of High Evasiveness, and Steve's compact playstyle with few openings and Lidia can struggle heavily.
C tier and thats being nice. Too many interruptables. Not alot of mixups. Weak armor moves. She needs a rework
She's definitely not top-tier her t7 version was better
Id say mid, her tracking is horrible, her pokes arent that good either and her lows are very commital.
Trying to get my Lidia out of Shinryu 🥲 I love her though forget tier lists
Good luck, I'm sure you can do it!