Plenty of Shchedrin concertos available on youtube, for those with the stomach and sophistication for it. There is no curator on youtube, but the algorithm assumes I would be more interested in the sound of a vacuum cleaner, and would be right.
I worked in the Classical department at Tower Records in the 1980s and at an independent small classical shop later on. I really miss those days. Sadly, it's a different world for us record collectors today.
I must say, as I have started to accumulate a collection of classical music recordings, I have bought about 80% of mine from Amazon. Buying used, from 3rd party vendors, is often the only way I can find older works, and at an affordable price. I do take your point about more obscure recordings and labels. I also don't mind buyer comments (sorry). I take them with a large grain of salt, but at least it gets me in the ballpark about whether a recording is worth my time. The one thing I hate, hate, HATE about Amazon is when they list the tracks on an album - especially when it a multiple disk set with various composers, or a box. Just saying "allegretto," "largo," or "adagio," without saying what the piece is, or the composer, is less than useless.
Bless those third party vendors! Like you, they have enabled me to locate older material (like CD reissues that date BEFORE the engineers butchered them with computers) at a reasonable price. And not once have I been sold a defective item.
"...because we're having a conversation," you said in defense of reader reviews on this channel. Agreed, and for me, that was also true at Amazon for a time, facilitated by allowing readers not only to post comments but also to reply to comments, and to reply to replies, at times evolving into extended threads with many readers. Sometimes wayward and annoying, banal or obnoxious? Sure. But at its best, Amazon classical reader reviews demonstrated that amateur criticism now and then also taps into some writing of surprising genius and sophistication, and that reader-curated comments have a way of eventually policing themselves. For me, it wasn't a crisis of democratization that ruined Amazon classical, but Amazon's failure to correctly match comments to products -- a glitch that's now more norm than exception.
Agreed on both of your points. The old system of allowing replies to comments (and replies to replies, etc.) was often a source of good information. And it is really annoying to start reading the comment section for a CD and then realize that the contributors are talking about another recording, possibly even of a different work.
I still see your reviews on Amazon all the time and really have fun reading them! Amazon used to be really fun to buy music on. Now it's a dumpster fire. Probably 25% of the customer reviews for classical music aren't even for the right product.
A few of my complaints about buying classical CDs from Amazon (off the top of my head): 1. As mentioned the search engine seems to have gone downhill recently. Not only does it mix in products from other categories, but it mixes downloads and LPs (and even cassettes) in the listing with CDs. There needs to be a RELIABLE way to narrow the search to a specific product format. To make matters worse, each track of a download is listed as a separate entity, so finding the one listing for the physical CD among the 10 or more individual track listings of the download is an added burden (especially when they all typically use the same artwork in the search results). 2. The entry for a CD will often not list the contents. Sometimes there is a photo of the back cover of the CD packaging, but often not. Even when there is a back photo, it may be inadequate in the case of a box set. I like to know what I'm buying. (This complaint applies to many ebay listings as well.). One used to encounter some risible attempts to provide a "list of the songs" on the CD by listing the tempo markings of the movements -- very helpful to see the contents listed as " Allegro Adagio Presto". 3. I don't object to the customer comments. Yes, there are a lot of comments that are useless praise posted by someone who has never heard another recording of the same work, but often the comments are the only way to overcome the lack of contents listing. John Fowler's content listings are often especially helpful in the case of box sets. In time one learns to separate the useless from the valuable. 4. What is with the "Nog geen afbeelding beschikbaar" message when no image is available for a listing? I've nothing against the Dutch, but one would think a company as large as Amazon could make the effort to use the local language(s) on each of their websites. 5. Even when you find the listing for the product you want, Amazon does not usually give the manufacturer's catalog number. No doubt this is to make it more difficult to do a general Google search and find another source, but it also makes it more difficult to find information (e.g., track listings, recording dates, etc.) not present in the Amazon listing.
The Dutch-language thing is something that happens at times to CDs listed by Marketplace sellers. The Amazon Sellers forum is full of complaints about it by frustrated sellers.
Funny. I get the English version of the very well written by you Dutch tekst...I mean text. 🤣 I too want the covers pictures but then, a last order had a giant sticker on the box that was not removable. Whadda world, is all I can say. And laugh.
What's weird is that that error message image replaced the cover image for a lot of products that previously had the correct cover image! Some idiot at Amazon did a search and replace with catastrophic consequences, and this mistake was never corrected. And of course there's no good way to get feedback to anyone with the power to do anything about it.
When Tower first opened in New York, you would call them and order the LPs you wanted that way. Every salesperson I talked to in the Classical department was knowledgeable and helpful - the LPs would be securely wrapped and sent off. It was wonderful!!!
German language reviews often pop up when there are no English language reviews. Amazon in Australia has product release dates that are incorrect interpretations of the mm/dd/yyyy used uniquely by the USA. So if you see a Jan 6 release date, it's actually June 1 But seriously, "recently" has been the last 12-15 years where promoted goods are mingled with search results. The direct match for a search may not appear until page 2 of the results, and that's for anything really not just classical music. Book search is a disaster. Movie search is disaster on disaster as Amazon amalgamates listings and reviews of the same film on everything from VHS to Laserdisc, through DVD and BluRay. I can no longer trust that I'll get a DVD or BluRay with the correct region code due to the listing confusion.
Those of us who were lucky enough to go to the University of Illinois in the 90s, before the store closed, got to experience Figaros, a classical-only store in a (seemingly) sound-proofed second-floor crow's nest above an indie record store below. I managed a used bookstore across the street, but almost every day at lunch, I'd use Figaro's small listening station to check out new CDs or just listen to whatever (usually orchestra or operatic) work was blasting from the hi-fi. I also used to love flipping through all the CDs on hand, stuff I'd only heard about from the Penguin Guide, plus all the then boutique labels like Chandos and BIS, with their never-before-heard-of composers and compositions. It was a great way to spur a developing love of classical music, and I miss it a lot (along witht he U of I Krannert Center, where I got to see the CSO every year, Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle Dresden, Tilson Thomas with the SFSO, a week of Reich, and on and on, all for a cheap student discount).
I miss the Schwann Classical Catalog. At least it told me what was available and the black diamond alerted me to what was going out of print. I have a stack of copies in the basement because the local Discount Records gave away back issues by the register. So I still know what was available in June, 1967, April, 1970, etc;... . Also King Karol would use a current issue as padding in the shipping carton when I did mail order with them.
Thanks for this rant. It led me to realize how much my listening experience has devolved recently. Inability to find CDs to buy has led to mostly playing stuff via RUclips, which, besides limiting the selection, has me listening on lesser hardware like my phone instead of on my much nicer stereo. Sure, I still fire it up every now and then for one of my favorites, but anything new is going to come from the tinny speakers on a phone or laptop.
I remember the record stores well. I used to dig through the dusty and neglected classical section. There was even a classical record store that was staffed by some rather strange people who really knew what they were doing. Sometimes, I miss those days, but I don't miss living in an apartment that was completely taken over by piles of records. The current digital regime has its advantages. Thanks to the ability to store an enormous music library on a single hard drive, I no longer have to worry about being crushed to death underneath a collapsed pile of records and CDs, and I don't have to dig through the dusty stacks when I want to listen to something. Amazon used to be a good place to find music, but it has turned into a complete mess. I think they are trying to push everyone into their streaming service, and they have allowed everything else to disintegrate. It used to be easy to buy digital downloads there. Now, it is a huge pain, and the last time I tried, it didn't even work and I had to go onto their chat (which is its own lovely nightmare) and get a refund. At least there are good alternatives for classical, but for many other types of music, it isn't easy to find alternate sources. Presto Music is my main source for classical music these days, and Dave's recommendations have led me to some good stuff there. Their website is reasonably easy to use, and digital downloads are no problem, although the pricing sometimes doesn't make sense, but that is likely the industry's fault. I don't buy physical media anymore due to inconvenience and lack of space, but I still want to own a copy of the music and don't want to rely on streaming services.
I use to work at Tower records in the early 90s and had to pull the returns on classical music and that was a nightmare!! I mean there were thousands of labels it seems and the catalog numbers and barcodes were endless.. it took me forever to pull that stuff..
I get all my classical stuff from Ebay from a few online stores that seem to have tons of stuff likely from the estates of dead people who played a disc twice. Bargain prices. I never go to Amazon these days.
Me too. Ebay may not have an organized catalog but their search engine is accurate....the same comment goes for purchasing jazz. I avoid amazon like the plague.
Amazon is the worst for music lovers in general... my recommendation: switch over to JPC in Germany with its home label CPO, a fantastic online provider of recorded music...classical, jazz, you name it...they've got a huge catalogue of every label with well written comments - in English! At least for the classic loving folks in Europe the perfect choice.. I'm not sure about shipping overseas... I've been buying and ordering my stuff there for some 35 years now and I've never regretted it.😊
Thanks for the tip. As regards shipping, I’ve had no problems with getting reasonably timely delivery from Presto in the UK. My last purchase was a bit slow, perhaps because Royal Mail was just coming out of a labor slowdown and a cyber-ransom attack.
@@christopherjohnson2422 I've also had problems with Royal Mail. They lost a package ones. JPC uses DHL though, and I've never had a problem with DHL; not one single time.
"Somewhere in the back...kind of creepy....out the woodwork....blowing the dust..."😂😂😂. So thats how I got free overstock 💿 recordings from my friend that worked at borders and Barnes/Noble
This video made me realize that the frustration I encounter while Googling your excellent recommendations just shouldn't be. It shouldn't be! Thanks again, Dave. My admiration for your vast and varied knowledge and my appreciation of all that you offer classical music lovers continues to grow!
You are so right, Dave, about Amazon and the sad history of the record industry and its follies. The first part of your talk took me back to the days when there were really good record stores in Boston and, especially, Cambridge. I have been living the Boston orbit for nigh on half a century now, and I'm old enough to remember when the Harvard Coop (Harvard Co-operative Society) had a serious classical record department managed by knowledgable folks with degrees in music. And that outlet was always crowded with classical record collectors pawing through the well-organized bins. And then there was Briggs and Briggs--a music store that specialized in instruments plus a classical-only reocrd department. They knew wht they were doing, too; and, again, on any given day you'd find music lovers knowing what they were after, asking intelligent questions of the management, and getting intelligent answers. Well, I guess its the privilege of the superannuated to say, "Those were the days!" Amazon, even at its best was not a substitute for those stores, or even for the excellent selection and service one would get at the Boston-area Tower Records franchises. As for Amazon these days, you have to know how to navigate and avoid the traps. I do order from them (and from outfits in the UK and abroad), but I've had some bad experiences. One example: sometimes when you click on the album or set you are interested in, you will find an excellent deal from a third-party seller. But when you click on the "Used and New sellers" portal, the picture of the recording on offer is entirely different. If you don't know to double check at that point, you can end up, as I did once, ordering the Leinstorf recording of "Don Giovanni," and getting the Krips recording of that opera in the mail. When I went back and checked online what was really on offer, I noticed that the Leinsdorf recording was pictured on the first screen, but when you got into the screen for the "sellers" It was the Krips reocroding. Aargh!!
The Coop's classical section was great back in the 80s. As well as the main bins, they had a shelf of heavily reduced CDs - lots of EMI as I recall . One of the pleasures of being a grad student living nearby was to graze among those and carry off something new to listen to each week. Tower Records in London during the 90s and early 2000s had a classical department that provided some of the same pleasures. Now I tend to buy from whichever of Presto, Amazon or Ebay have the item I'm looking for. But that, and the experience of streaming services, are less satisfying than going through well organised bins with a knowledgeable person at hand.
@@HarriettK Thanks for the comments and reminiscences. I, too, was a grad student in metropolitan Boston during the Eighties, and the COOP was a draw. My collection of classical CD's is built, early on, with CD's purchased at the COOP, then, later at Tower Records handy to the "Auditorum" trolley stop. That store later became HMV music, and still provided a huge selection of all labels. There are still used record emporia in Boston that afford the pleasure of rifling through bins.
Totally valid appraisal! I face off with Amazon like an archeologist attacking a suspiciously lumpy hillock---never know what will turn up until a thorough search is performed. And the descriptions and track listings are apparently created by random bingo cards.
I worked at J&R Music World at City Hall Park (NYC) in the mid 1980s - when they were moving the classical annex into the big new store, and incidentally they still had a jazz annex. It was interesting to see how few classical and jazz LPs sold compared with …. But the staff who ran the annexes really knew their stuff (working musicians whose day job was J&R). At least The Digital Algorithmic Automation while displacing these staff at physical stores has given us the likes of uncle Dave!
HEY DAVE, did you know that there was a record catalogue in FINNISH HELL? It was called THE SCHWANN OF TUONELA !!!! Nice talk, so many classical music stores back then and now they're basically all gone. C ya.....
Mr. Hurwitz, thank you so much for this "rant." It sums up so many thoughts I have had recently about Amazon. Since discovering your RUclips channel about a year ago, I have really tried to shore up my classical collection (I'm old school and I purchase physical media--compact discs). I've lost count of how many times I have watched one of your recommendations videos, gotten all the way to your "however" pick, and thought, "Great! I'll pop over to Amazon to see if I can order that 'however' recording." The results are usually along two lines. Either the search returns vacuum cleaners and toasters or the disc is unavailable new but a seller in the South Sandwich Islands has a used copy they would gladly sell me for $1,827 plus another $195 for shipping. I'm a dedicated user of Discogs, but even that is hit-and-miss with classical recordings. Finding hard copies of recordings is so tricky sometimes. Alas, first-world problems. Like you, I can still remember the "old days" (I am 55 years old) of classical music sections/rooms ensconced in the huge record stores. I live in Wichita, Kansas, and my college friends and I used to road trip over a weekend to Kansas City with the express intent of looking for used compact discs and vinyl. One of the Streetside Records in Kansas City had a massive downstairs classical "fishbowl". It was glassed off from the rest of the store and when you walked in there and the door closed behind you, it was like you had stepped into another auditory world. It was a delightful retail sensation that I don't think I'll ever experience again. Kansas City also had Classical Westport which, if memory serves, sold only classical and jazz on compact discs and vinyl. It too was glorious. In Wichita, we had a place called Compact Disc Center that let you listen to anything in the store before you purchased it. The classical music section at Compact Disc Center was curated by a good friend of mine who now hosts SiriusXM's Symphony Hall program. Needless to say, the classical music section at that store was outstanding. As for streaming...I feel more and more like a Luddite every day. I did Spotify Premium for years until they increased their prices and I wasn't willing to pay them. I really like Qobuz, but they are a bit too pricy. I've been using Presto Music for about a month and I am enjoying it so far. It seems that they are doing the best job of all the streaming services in arranging their digi-bits in a coherent and user-friendly manner. I realize the other services have set a ludicrously low bar, but it seems like some actual thought and concern for the music is driving a few of the people working on the backend of Presto. I'll support them for now and see where things head.
I agree with you about Presto. I'm really old school (age 76) about wanting my physical discs, and now I'm burning my own from their lossless downloads. Recently got some nice Geoge Szell material from Presto that is essentially out of print or in terrible remasterings from Sony. I don't know Prestos sources, but it was fabulous sounding.
I miss the days of record stores. I come from Greece, but the description you gave at the beginning of this video about the classical music department in record stores was exactly like it was in our record stores too. Now everything is so distant and impersonal. One of the things I enjoy about your videos is that you show yourself in them, instead of simply a voice over some "professional" visual graphics or images. You also brought to my mind George Carlin's immortal take on "Stuff". Keep up the good job. Thank you.
I miss the record stores. As mentioned, Cutlers in New Haven was fantastic. And then thy opened Cutlers Classical next door! Heaven. Also, the Music Box in Hamden was great. All gone. And when I was out in Royal Oak Michigan there was Harmony House Classical on Woodward Avenue. The best of all I visited.
Back when record stores had been in business for decades already and had walking talking catalogs - salespeople who could point out treasures, who'd let you go in the back room or basement and just dig. Orpheus on Lex.....
Boy I miss real record stores. I used to take trips to Los Angeles just to go to Tower Records up on Sunset Blvd. In New York I loved the HMV and Harold Moore's in London was great, too. Amazon used to be a good source for classical, but something really has gone wrong in the past few years. Arkivmusic was great but something went wrong there, too. Now Presto and JPC are the best places for me.
When I'd drive south from Seattle I'd find some excuse to get off I-5 in Tukwila and spend some time at Silver Platters. Their prices were high, but their classical selection quite good.
Ah, physical record stores, like Tower records Hollywood classical shop directly across the street on Sunset Blvd from their main store. And not too far from the Hollywood Billboard where Angel featured their Karajan Meistersinger - those were the days. Too much product, too little money for records. I still go there occasionally in my dreams. I can’t imagine anybody dreaming of shopping for classical music on Amazon.
I totally agree with your comments regarding discontinued discs specifically and the general disorganisation of the classical recording industry and Amazon as a major player in distribution. However, let's not get too nostalgic about the past. Unless lucky enough to live in or close to a large city, people had to go to stores with no or little choice. This created some of the parochialism of which you often speak. Some stores did indeed have interested and informed assistants who would be very helpful. On the other hand, I still squirm at the memory of a German lady who wanted some Albeniz piano music and I overheard being told 'We don't have any - Albeniz was Spanish - he wrote guitar music'. Maybe I should be ashamed of myself but I do use Amazon to purchase CDs which I don't know where I'd get otherwise. The number of really great shops is dwindling, sadly. That's not to say I couldn't get them online but I think I'd have to look around for the more obscure labels. As for reviews, I ignore those on Amazon (though will look out for your reviews in future) and tend to note your views on RUclips, of course, and those of our BBC reviewers.
The 1st summer I was a student at Tanglewood, a friend of mine(that was from the area and a fellow musician) took me to Berkshire Music Outlet one Saturday afternoon...WOW!!!! We spent a hour and half digging thru 1000' and 1000's of CD'S, loving every minute. I spent $100 and walked out with 23 disc...most of which were CHANDOS 👍
I recall buying lots of vinyl from Berkshire in the 1980s, and buying absolutely tons of CDs from them in the 2000-sies. Back then, huge catalogs of cutouts were available thanks to the major labels dumping a lot of their catalogs. And sometimes, whole catalogs showed up on Berkshire-like the time Koch Records bailed out of the classical business, or when Harmonia Mundi temporarily lost their US distributor, and when Seymour Solomon’s revival of Vanguard and Everest went belly-up. It’s been a while since I’ve checked Berkshire’s website, but last I looked, the pickins were a lot slimmer. I’ve lately been a regular Presto user.
Fantastic talk. Always love history chats, even if it’s recent history. Dave, I’m working on a video project in honour of your channel and its wonderfully informative and entertaining videos. Is there an email I could send a draft to once it’s near-finished for review? I’m sorry if it’s posted somewhere obvious and I’ve failed to find it up to this point.
Amazon is as you say virtually useless. I find I can get everything I need or want from Presto in the UK for current items and from Discogs for out of print material with occasional purchases from JapanCD for Japan-only or Japan-early releases as well as all the releases from Pristine Audio for historical material. I had hopes for Apple Classical but even though there is a lot of material using it is very clunky.
To this day i haven't found an online streaming experience for classical that is satisfactory. There was a streaming service a few years ago called Primephonic that I liked, but it was eventually absorbed (bought out?) into Apple Music. Apple Music is very poorly organized when it comes to classical and the music streaming experience for Amazon is so bad that i don't even listen to it for regular pop radio music. I can only imagine what a mess the classical dept must be for the Amazon app/interface. Unfortunately, when it comes to classical the best experience still remains playing your favorite cd at home or listening to your own ripped list. I loved the old days of the Virgin Megastore and Tower Records classical departments. Browsing through the bins and going to the listening stations it was very easy to lose track of time. It used to be a perfect way to spend a lazy Sunday. The Barnes and Noble across the street from Lincoln Center also had a huge classical cd dept. Today, I like going to youtube and entering a specific work and conductor or specific work and orchestra and see if it's uploaded to youtube. Listening to the video on youtube is relaxing, but unfortunately not everything is uploaded to youtube.
Presto in the UK is quite good for classical, both physical media and downloading. Delivery can take a week or so, but if you're into long-form music, how impatient can you be?
I don't recall EVER buying classical music from Amazon. However I do like and appreciate Presto classical in the UK and before anyone says anything about promotion I'm merely a happy customer!
I think at Amazon human involvement with all types of products largely ends with the programmers who design the computer routines and algorithms that accept the huge influx of information from vendors and spits it out in the form of web pages. That's their operational model, and it doesn't involve paying for human labor to make specific decisions about specific products or product types. As for the chaos of their search results, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a feature, not a bug. Analogous to the brick-and-mortar operations that deliberately design stores to maximize the amount of time customers spend trying to find things, with the presumption that in the process they'll stumble on other things that they'll suddenly want to buy.
I used to love going to the Tower Records classical annex in Paramus, NJ (a stand alone building), followed by Barnes and Noble right down the road, which also had a great classical section. And my favorite place for used classical was Princeton Record Exchange!
At Turner's Record Shop the classical section was right as you came in the door, to the left. It was a very small portion of the store, as you say. The people who ran the place knew me well; I recall coming in one day and one of them handed me Berio's 2-piano concerto, saying "You want this." And I've got 7 Lajtha discs on Naxos coming from ye olde Berkshire Record Outlet!
The most organised Classical collection I saw on sale was the basement of a used record store, stuff was organised by issuing Label, instrument, conductor or composer. It was still a mess but a understandable mess. Amazon not only don't care, they don't care about the state of the product they ship, I've had many a CD or Vinyl record arrive smashed up by them. Even Charity shops care more about music as a product of value than a faceless bunch of warehouses that treat their staff like crap.
Can I ask a totally unrelated question as a regular here? Is this concert worth paying $90 for a decent seat to in Florida? Orpheus Chamber Orchestra with Nobuyuki Tsuji performing Chopin Piano Concerto #1 and Schumann Carnival. BTW the greatest classical vinyl / CD store in the USA is Encore Records / Liberty Music Shop in Ann Arbor which many people consider Podunk USA. As I remember, there are still glassed off listening booths so you can listen before you buy.
As bad as the Amazon website is for classical music, its iPhone app for streaming music is arguably even worse. It often offers up bizarre artists for the music you choose. Plus, the app's character limit for descriptions truncates necessary information like who the orchestra or the conductor or the soloist is. Often you have to try to outguess the algorithm to find what you're REALLY looking for, and you know at the same time that it's (inadvertently, but still) keeping a whole bunch of gems out of reach. It's really frustrating.
Thanks for your commentary! This is why I mourn the passing of the Art Music Company at the corner of Telegraph and Channing in Berkeley. It also explains why I still value the guidance of, say, B.H. Haggin's "Music for the Man [sic] Who Loves Hamlet." At first I took offense at your criticism of "historic" recordings, but now I rely on your characterizations of today's artistic performances. I find Amazon a mess. We need a new version of Haggin or Kolodin or someone to help (especially) the young to build a repertoire and to experiment.
My, summoning up the name of B.H. Haggin brings up memories! Having really discovered classical music as a byproduct of a Grade 7 Music Appreciation course, my local public libraries had good selections of classical music books and I read several of Haggin's titles. He was exceptionally opinionated, but I can still recall much of the language and syntax he deployed to convince you of the merits of his point of view. A couple of his books have an entire chapter dedicated to Brahms (not in a particularly positive manner).
I watched the video expecting a statement about the poor sound quality of much of the classical music on Amazon music app. It went in another direction, but I am interested in that other topic as well.
Record Store Day. I didn't notice any classical titles. Lots of blues, jazz and soundtracks on vinyl, cassette and CD.However You Tube reviewers got people to purchase a few more copies. Laserlight Digital, my brother's favorite.
One of my biggest pet peeves is when they include comments under one product listing that are clearly meant for an entirely different product. I have brought such misplaced comments to Amazon's attention on multiple occasions and gotten nowhere. They either do not care or are too stupid to realize why it is a problem. And they do the same thing with various editions of the same book. Comments on one translation of a classic will routinely be included under a completely different translation.
The Tampa Bay area never had real classical stores like Rose or the original Tower. The closest thing was Peaches. That store even experimented briefly with stocking the complete Columbia Masterworks and RCA Red Seal catalogs. And when I say “complete,” I’m not kidding. You could even find ancient ML and LM items that Columbia and RCA was keeping in print. Everything was shelved in numerical order! To be honest, I doubt they sold much product.
Culter's is gone?! When I lived in NH in the '80s, when I am stressed out, I'd go to Cutler's and browse their offerings. Hope you get to cover Idagio. Music streaming is becoming the default listening habits of classical music listeners.
I used to purchase mp3 downloads of classical music from Amazon, but the quality was consistently very bad - the tracks sounded grainy and chopped up, much more than other mp3s I have from other sellers. Anyone else notice this? I know mp3s aren't going to have the quality of a CD or lossless format, but the same mp3s from Amazon sound noticably worse from those purchased elsewhere. If anyone can recommend an alternative platform that has a good catalog to purchase classical music mp3s for download from, I'd like to know. (I don't prefer itunes or Apple related sellers because I don't have an IPhone).
Point well made. I can relate to the nostalgic remembrances of Tower Records ("The largest record store in the known world") Shopped them for years starting in the early 70's until they went belly up. They're back now, but it's just not the same. Amazon is a maze of ads and promoted stuff in all categories of merchandise. Like a big box store, only lots worse. A sign of the times, I suppose.
Agree fully regarding Amazon. I believe that ECM has created an integrated approach to their artists and music and sound that we can admire and count on - like Mercury.
I supplement any searches within Amazon by doing external search using Google (and adding the term Amazon to the search)...often this throws up multiple listings at varying prices for the same item and has the potential to save a lot of money, or at least avoid spending excessive amounts. I often search Amazon for other countries to find even more listings, then use the ASIN number for those additional listings to go back and check any Amazon website that didn't bring them up on prior searches...this often brings up listings that can't be found using other (various) search terms. Far worse, for me, is that reviews on Amazon are often not for the CD to which they are attached...very frustrating and misleading.
That is why I never leave comments. I am just an enthusiast, an amateur that enjoy music, so I know I will never be capable of making knowledgeable reviews about the works. I prefer to search for comments from professionals.
Do we need catalogues and professional reviewers of music now everybody can listen to the musical sources themselves and the listener can make his/her own choices? The only problem will be that streaming services like the physical mega shops in the past most likely cannot keep up publishing all the new recording and the diversity of music will end in the long run, while they will only publish music that is favourable for the masses in the end to make a profit.
Amazon Germany is as messy as Amazon US, but they do have lots of stuff at unbelievably low prices. For almost anything I consider buying new, I research a bit outside of Amazon, get a product code or something like that and use it to go through Amazon's pile of junk. Amazon is definitely not a place for education, it's just a huge database and a streamlined, efficient dispatcher of packaged stuff.
I gave up on Amazon classical years ago (and Amazon books, for that matter).I agree with you that it's a joke. I go to the review sites or label sites now. In my city, Auckland New Zealand, we once had a dedicated classical music shop which was more like a music library staffed by qualified music librarians.
On the topic of search engines, there are two sites I occasionally use for printed music. Their search engines are terrible, although one of them does have the "additional criteria" option (i.e., narrow the existing search). The result listing is so long that it feels like you would be wiser just to pick a piece at random. As for the organization of the merchandise, you would need to pick a somewhat obsessive person who was steeped in classical music. I worked for two of them, and they would easily have qualified. You would also have to pay decently. You might then avoid the idiocy of offering only three movements in MP3 of a four movement symphony.
I don't shop from Amazon for anything. It has become very difficult for Americans to buy classical online. ArkivMusic no longer offers much of a selection. Oh, my gosh. I remember Cutler's in New Haven. Thanks for that mention, Dave.
A question that has nothing to do with your video? Which is or were your favorite pianist? It could be an idea for videos where you can explain why a pianist is better than other and why, it would be so Interesting for people who follow you channel, just to know more and understand even better classical music, thanks in advance.
I agree Amazon is a terrible source for finding top classical recordings. However, as reinforced by your experience, they never really intended to be a great source. We've known for a long time AMZ wants to be everything for everyone so being a serious place for reviews of anything is impossible. When I was first getting into this genre in the late 1990's, I would visit one of the classical music annexes of which you spoke,. My favorite happened to be a short drive in my vast suburb. I still buy some CDs but they have to be among your top recommended albums or if I can't find the albums on the streaming service to which I subscribe (TIDAL). First place I look is typically Discogs but also eBay and Amazon as a last resort. The paradigm is extremely messed up but I've surrendered a bit and go with recommendations by legit critics unless I have sentimental attachments to, for example, a specific orchestra.
I agree regarding customer comments on Amazon. Even if they are informed and well written you don't know whether an item is getting a good or bad review because of the performance, the recording quality, or the actual piece. If I want to know how someone has ranked a recording of, say, Bruckner's 9th (or whatever) I know I love the work, I don't want to see someone give it two stars because they don't like it regardless of whether it's a fantastic recording/performance or not.
Another great one, Mr Hurwitz. Your boyhood reminiscences took me back. All true. Being slightly older, I remember the great explosion brought about by Nonesuch Records. Mid 1960s and I was very young and just discovering the world of recorded music. Nonesuch was cheaper, had fabulous cover art (eg Milton Glazer!) and felt “youthful.”Mysterious repertoire ranging from Gunther Wand’s Brandenburgs to anything Telemann (then unknown), Vivaldi concertos of every kind, Heinrich Biber, Couperin, music from the court of Maximillian I, French organ concertos…and all so beguilingly packaged for $2.49. No more having to order Purcell trio sonatas in a plain white jacket from Musical Heritage Society, and wait for weeks. In those psychedelic days it was an amazing breath of fresh air! (You only have to recall the packaging of London Records then in print to know what I mean.) Amazon? Agreed. Never use it unless you know exactly what you’re looking for. And yes, ignore all user reviews-Too many axes to grind. Thank you, as always 🙌👍🏻🙏🫶
When I started beginner band on flute, my band director told me to listen to classical music and listen for the flute and try to make the same sound I heard on the recordings. My first recording was Mahler 1 with the Boston Symphony Leinsdorf conducting. I've been buying classical music recordings ever since. LPs to Cds. Currently have over 11,000 cds.
Generally, I agree with your comments on Amazon. The one place I disagree is where you say customer comments negate the reviews of professional critics; when I see your name, or another I recognize I take that seriously. I ignore customer comments anyway.
Amazon pushes too many products - a fact that benefits me, frequently - but it tends to homogenize the output, and when it comes to Classical music, most of us require more discernment in the curation of this music. As a result, I do not go to Amazon for music, period. I am daily thankful for this channel, David and Classics Today for holding high the critical standard.
I don’t want to be a complainer with no purpose, but I really don’t care for Amazon Music, the streaming service of the company. It is very disorganized and the human computer interface is weak. But I really like Apple Classical. It is a lot better organized and it gives you a choice between sampling and in-depth listening. Much better, thanks.
I've had Amazon music for a while and I agree that it's very disorganized. I was listening to an album of duets and arias on there and I forgot what it was called. I couldn't find it in my music! They need genre labeling and a better interface.
I've always thought one of the most inaccessible things about classical is that most listeners are used to music where albums are the main format. I've always wanted to see more of a "recording-based" review of classical music, something like "the 1001 records you must own" where you could have specific releases like the Pollini late sonatas record, or the Karajan SVS records, but the problem is those things aren't treated as "albums" and the recordings get repackaged and recoupled with new catalog numbers with every rerelease...
Another aspect about Amazon that comes to my mind is the question if Amazon qualifies to be called a "respectable" seller. I come to the Amazon doesn't deserve to be called respectable, because a respectable seller for me is defined not only but also by the characteristic that he sells a product for the same fair market price as long as he has it on stock, also after the product goes out of print on the distribution side. So an unrespectable seller defines by the characteristic that as soon as a product goes out of print, he raises the price for the items he's got left up to oblivion. So everybody who's involved with Amazon long enough knows that they're a seller of the second, unrespectable category. Could you imagine that you trusted record store in whatever city you may live would sell a CD one week for 20$ and the next week, after the distributor told him that the CD is out of print now, for 100$ ? I have never experienced something like that, but Amazon does it anyway.
The customer reviews at Amazon that are the least helpful are the ones with the five star ratings that go something like this: "I received the item quickly. I gave it to my husband for his birthday. He hasn't listened to it yet."
Amazon is the same all through and all along. They are the people who made Rings of Power, the worst disaster in the history of TV series, and made it in spite of the fact that literally everybody told them it was going to be a disaster.
@@peskypesky Yes, I dare say that if you looked hard, you might find five, perhaps ten. And the reason why they are making another season is that Jeff Bezos still has enough money to waste on a vanity project.
I love Amazon’s chaos. The physical product can often be had for peanuts. The streaming service Amazon Music is a treasure trove of albums, and HD and UltraHD sound via the app is CD quality. Artist metadata is a problem, sure. But a little effort and ingenuity pays dividends. On the physical product pages, you get Hurwitz and can safely ignore “Santa Fe Listener” and the crazy late Dorati-hating Colonel, but get very useful reviews from Messrs. Fowler and Guerrero and the scriabinmahler guy whom I find helpful (and who doesn’t enjoy a sarcastic yet poetic O’Hanlon review now and again).
It's the world in a nut(digits and dollars)shell and nothing else matters. It wasn't enlightening but from a business perspective I think it started way before the online businesses began, Saturday Night Fever was the beginning of the end as far as I am concerned. Grateful to have been around when the fabulous specializing and importing businesses did well. Patagonia...never but most of the rest of the world, even from behind the Iron curtain. The old Wergo, Melodia and Hungaroton labels, it was available, subsidized or sold well and thriving. As with everything else that has changed, well just gave to make the most of it...until there's no more than just digits and dollars which hopefully won't happen during my days. PS. I didn't know you were one of those scoundrels typing the info for Amazing. Hahaha. That was an eye opener. 🤣 At least you got something out of that mess. Brava.
For the last three years, this RUclips station has been my “catalog” for finding music to listen to and purchase. Thank you so much
Plenty of Shchedrin concertos available on youtube, for those with the stomach and sophistication for it. There is no curator on youtube, but the algorithm assumes I would be more interested in the sound of a vacuum cleaner, and would be right.
I worked in the Classical department at Tower Records in the 1980s and at an independent small classical shop later on. I really miss those days. Sadly, it's a different world for us record collectors today.
I must say, as I have started to accumulate a collection of classical music recordings, I have bought about 80% of mine from Amazon. Buying used, from 3rd party vendors, is often the only way I can find older works, and at an affordable price. I do take your point about more obscure recordings and labels. I also don't mind buyer comments (sorry). I take them with a large grain of salt, but at least it gets me in the ballpark about whether a recording is worth my time. The one thing I hate, hate, HATE about Amazon is when they list the tracks on an album - especially when it a multiple disk set with various composers, or a box. Just saying "allegretto," "largo," or "adagio," without saying what the piece is, or the composer, is less than useless.
Bless those third party vendors! Like you, they have enabled me to locate older material (like CD reissues that date BEFORE the engineers butchered them with computers) at a reasonable price. And not once have I been sold a defective item.
"...because we're having a conversation," you said in defense of reader reviews on this channel. Agreed, and for me, that was also true at Amazon for a time, facilitated by allowing readers not only to post comments but also to reply to comments, and to reply to replies, at times evolving into extended threads with many readers. Sometimes wayward and annoying, banal or obnoxious? Sure. But at its best, Amazon classical reader reviews demonstrated that amateur criticism now and then also taps into some writing of surprising genius and sophistication, and that reader-curated comments have a way of eventually policing themselves. For me, it wasn't a crisis of democratization that ruined Amazon classical, but Amazon's failure to correctly match comments to products -- a glitch that's now more norm than exception.
Agreed on both of your points. The old system of allowing replies to comments (and replies to replies, etc.) was often a source of good information. And it is really annoying to start reading the comment section for a CD and then realize that the contributors are talking about another recording, possibly even of a different work.
My first comment : Presto Classical has a fine assortment of FLAC downloads of otherwise hard to find USA content.
I still see your reviews on Amazon all the time and really have fun reading them! Amazon used to be really fun to buy music on. Now it's a dumpster fire. Probably 25% of the customer reviews for classical music aren't even for the right product.
Another big annoyance is reading reviews for one CD that are clearly for a different issue.
A few of my complaints about buying classical CDs from Amazon (off the top of my head):
1. As mentioned the search engine seems to have gone downhill recently. Not only does it mix in products from other categories, but it mixes downloads and LPs (and even cassettes) in the listing with CDs. There needs to be a RELIABLE way to narrow the search to a specific product format. To make matters worse, each track of a download is listed as a separate entity, so finding the one listing for the physical CD among the 10 or more individual track listings of the download is an added burden (especially when they all typically use the same artwork in the search results).
2. The entry for a CD will often not list the contents. Sometimes there is a photo of the back cover of the CD packaging, but often not. Even when there is a back photo, it may be inadequate in the case of a box set. I like to know what I'm buying. (This complaint applies to many ebay listings as well.). One used to encounter some risible attempts to provide a "list of the songs" on the CD by listing the tempo markings of the movements -- very helpful to see the contents listed as " Allegro Adagio Presto".
3. I don't object to the customer comments. Yes, there are a lot of comments that are useless praise posted by someone who has never heard another recording of the same work, but often the comments are the only way to overcome the lack of contents listing. John Fowler's content listings are often especially helpful in the case of box sets. In time one learns to separate the useless from the valuable.
4. What is with the "Nog geen afbeelding beschikbaar" message when no image is available for a listing? I've nothing against the Dutch, but one would think a company as large as Amazon could make the effort to use the local language(s) on each of their websites.
5. Even when you find the listing for the product you want, Amazon does not usually give the manufacturer's catalog number. No doubt this is to make it more difficult to do a general Google search and find another source, but it also makes it more difficult to find information (e.g., track listings, recording dates, etc.) not present in the Amazon listing.
The Dutch-language thing is something that happens at times to CDs listed by Marketplace sellers. The Amazon Sellers forum is full of complaints about it by frustrated sellers.
Funny. I get the English version of the very well written by you Dutch tekst...I mean text. 🤣 I too want the covers pictures but then, a last order had a giant sticker on the box that was not removable. Whadda world, is all I can say. And laugh.
What's weird is that that error message image replaced the cover image for a lot of products that previously had the correct cover image! Some idiot at Amazon did a search and replace with catastrophic consequences, and this mistake was never corrected. And of course there's no good way to get feedback to anyone with the power to do anything about it.
When Tower first opened in New York, you would call them and order the LPs you wanted that way. Every salesperson I talked to in the Classical department was knowledgeable and helpful - the LPs would be securely wrapped and sent off. It was wonderful!!!
German language reviews often pop up when there are no English language reviews. Amazon in Australia has product release dates that are incorrect interpretations of the mm/dd/yyyy used uniquely by the USA. So if you see a Jan 6 release date, it's actually June 1
But seriously, "recently" has been the last 12-15 years where promoted goods are mingled with search results. The direct match for a search may not appear until page 2 of the results, and that's for anything really not just classical music. Book search is a disaster. Movie search is disaster on disaster as Amazon amalgamates listings and reviews of the same film on everything from VHS to Laserdisc, through DVD and BluRay. I can no longer trust that I'll get a DVD or BluRay with the correct region code due to the listing confusion.
Those of us who were lucky enough to go to the University of Illinois in the 90s, before the store closed, got to experience Figaros, a classical-only store in a (seemingly) sound-proofed second-floor crow's nest above an indie record store below. I managed a used bookstore across the street, but almost every day at lunch, I'd use Figaro's small listening station to check out new CDs or just listen to whatever (usually orchestra or operatic) work was blasting from the hi-fi. I also used to love flipping through all the CDs on hand, stuff I'd only heard about from the Penguin Guide, plus all the then boutique labels like Chandos and BIS, with their never-before-heard-of composers and compositions. It was a great way to spur a developing love of classical music, and I miss it a lot (along witht he U of I Krannert Center, where I got to see the CSO every year, Sinopoli with the Staatskapelle Dresden, Tilson Thomas with the SFSO, a week of Reich, and on and on, all for a cheap student discount).
Thank you , Dave ! for all you do for classical music! I enjoy listening to you!
I miss the Schwann Classical Catalog. At least it told me what was available and the black diamond alerted me to what was going out of print. I have a stack of copies in the basement because the local Discount Records gave away back issues by the register. So I still know what was available in June, 1967, April, 1970, etc;... . Also King Karol would use a current issue as padding in the shipping carton when I did mail order with them.
Thanks for this rant. It led me to realize how much my listening experience has devolved recently. Inability to find CDs to buy has led to mostly playing stuff via RUclips, which, besides limiting the selection, has me listening on lesser hardware like my phone instead of on my much nicer stereo. Sure, I still fire it up every now and then for one of my favorites, but anything new is going to come from the tinny speakers on a phone or laptop.
I remember the record stores well. I used to dig through the dusty and neglected classical section. There was even a classical record store that was staffed by some rather strange people who really knew what they were doing. Sometimes, I miss those days, but I don't miss living in an apartment that was completely taken over by piles of records. The current digital regime has its advantages. Thanks to the ability to store an enormous music library on a single hard drive, I no longer have to worry about being crushed to death underneath a collapsed pile of records and CDs, and I don't have to dig through the dusty stacks when I want to listen to something.
Amazon used to be a good place to find music, but it has turned into a complete mess. I think they are trying to push everyone into their streaming service, and they have allowed everything else to disintegrate. It used to be easy to buy digital downloads there. Now, it is a huge pain, and the last time I tried, it didn't even work and I had to go onto their chat (which is its own lovely nightmare) and get a refund. At least there are good alternatives for classical, but for many other types of music, it isn't easy to find alternate sources. Presto Music is my main source for classical music these days, and Dave's recommendations have led me to some good stuff there. Their website is reasonably easy to use, and digital downloads are no problem, although the pricing sometimes doesn't make sense, but that is likely the industry's fault. I don't buy physical media anymore due to inconvenience and lack of space, but I still want to own a copy of the music and don't want to rely on streaming services.
I'd forgotten the Schwann Catalog! I read it religiously.
I use to work at Tower records in the early 90s and had to pull the returns on classical music and that was a nightmare!! I mean there were thousands of labels it seems and the catalog numbers and barcodes were endless.. it took me forever to pull that stuff..
I get all my classical stuff from Ebay from a few online stores that seem to have tons of stuff likely from the estates of dead people who played a disc twice. Bargain prices. I never go to Amazon these days.
Me too. Ebay may not have an organized catalog but their search engine is accurate....the same comment goes for purchasing jazz. I avoid amazon like the plague.
Amazon is the worst for music lovers in general...
my recommendation: switch over to JPC in Germany with its home label CPO, a fantastic online provider of recorded music...classical, jazz, you name it...they've got a huge catalogue of every label with well written comments - in English!
At least for the classic loving folks in Europe the perfect choice..
I'm not sure about shipping
overseas...
I've been buying and ordering my stuff there for some 35 years now and I've never regretted it.😊
I absolutely support the recommendation for jpc!
My experience with JPC has been excellent and I have shipped to the USA. Strongly recommended.
Thanks for the tip. As regards shipping, I’ve had no problems with getting reasonably timely delivery from Presto in the UK. My last purchase was a bit slow, perhaps because Royal Mail was just coming out of a labor slowdown and a cyber-ransom attack.
@@christopherjohnson2422 I've also had problems with Royal Mail. They lost a package ones. JPC uses DHL though, and I've never had a problem with DHL; not one single time.
JPC is good, and I've had several orders sent to me in Australia. However, their Search function needs refinement.
"Somewhere in the back...kind of creepy....out the woodwork....blowing the dust..."😂😂😂. So thats how I got free overstock 💿 recordings from my friend that worked at borders and Barnes/Noble
This video made me realize that the frustration I encounter while Googling your excellent recommendations just shouldn't be. It shouldn't be! Thanks again, Dave. My admiration for your vast and varied knowledge and my appreciation of all that you offer classical music lovers continues to grow!
You are so right, Dave, about Amazon and the sad history of the record industry and its follies. The first part of your talk took me back to the days when there were really good record stores in Boston and, especially, Cambridge. I have been living the Boston orbit for nigh on half a century now, and I'm old enough to remember when the Harvard Coop (Harvard Co-operative Society) had a serious classical record department managed by knowledgable folks with degrees in music. And that outlet was always crowded with classical record collectors pawing through the well-organized bins. And then there was Briggs and Briggs--a music store that specialized in instruments plus a classical-only reocrd department. They knew wht they were doing, too; and, again, on any given day you'd find music lovers knowing what they were after, asking intelligent questions of the management, and getting intelligent answers. Well, I guess its the privilege of the superannuated to say, "Those were the days!" Amazon, even at its best was not a substitute for those stores, or even for the excellent selection and service one would get at the Boston-area Tower Records franchises. As for Amazon these days, you have to know how to navigate and avoid the traps. I do order from them (and from outfits in the UK and abroad), but I've had some bad experiences. One example: sometimes when you click on the album or set you are interested in, you will find an excellent deal from a third-party seller. But when you click on the "Used and New sellers" portal, the picture of the recording on offer is entirely different. If you don't know to double check at that point, you can end up, as I did once, ordering the Leinstorf recording of "Don Giovanni," and getting the Krips recording of that opera in the mail. When I went back and checked online what was really on offer, I noticed that the Leinsdorf recording was pictured on the first screen, but when you got into the screen for the "sellers" It was the Krips reocroding. Aargh!!
The Coop's classical section was great back in the 80s. As well as the main bins, they had a shelf of heavily reduced CDs - lots of EMI as I recall . One of the pleasures of being a grad student living nearby was to graze among those and carry off something new to listen to each week. Tower Records in London during the 90s and early 2000s had a classical department that provided some of the same pleasures. Now I tend to buy from whichever of Presto, Amazon or Ebay have the item I'm looking for. But that, and the experience of streaming services, are less satisfying than going through well organised bins with a knowledgeable person at hand.
@@HarriettK Thanks for the comments and reminiscences. I, too, was a grad student in metropolitan Boston during the Eighties, and the COOP was a draw. My collection of classical CD's is built, early on, with CD's purchased at the COOP, then, later at Tower Records handy to the "Auditorum" trolley stop. That store later became HMV music, and still provided a huge selection of all labels. There are still used record emporia in Boston that afford the pleasure of rifling through bins.
@@davidaiken1061 On the other side of the pond now. But nice to know.
Totally valid appraisal! I face off with Amazon like an archeologist attacking a suspiciously lumpy hillock---never know what will turn up until a thorough search is performed. And the descriptions and track listings are apparently created by random bingo cards.
I worked at J&R Music World at City Hall Park (NYC) in the mid 1980s - when they were moving the classical annex into the big new store, and incidentally they still had a jazz annex. It was interesting to see how few classical and jazz LPs sold compared with …. But the staff who ran the annexes really knew their stuff (working musicians whose day job was J&R). At least The Digital Algorithmic Automation while displacing these staff at physical stores has given us the likes of uncle Dave!
HEY DAVE, did you know that there was a record catalogue in FINNISH HELL? It was called THE SCHWANN OF TUONELA !!!! Nice talk, so many classical music stores back then and now they're basically all gone. C ya.....
Mr. Hurwitz, thank you so much for this "rant." It sums up so many thoughts I have had recently about Amazon. Since discovering your RUclips channel about a year ago, I have really tried to shore up my classical collection (I'm old school and I purchase physical media--compact discs). I've lost count of how many times I have watched one of your recommendations videos, gotten all the way to your "however" pick, and thought, "Great! I'll pop over to Amazon to see if I can order that 'however' recording." The results are usually along two lines. Either the search returns vacuum cleaners and toasters or the disc is unavailable new but a seller in the South Sandwich Islands has a used copy they would gladly sell me for $1,827 plus another $195 for shipping. I'm a dedicated user of Discogs, but even that is hit-and-miss with classical recordings. Finding hard copies of recordings is so tricky sometimes. Alas, first-world problems.
Like you, I can still remember the "old days" (I am 55 years old) of classical music sections/rooms ensconced in the huge record stores. I live in Wichita, Kansas, and my college friends and I used to road trip over a weekend to Kansas City with the express intent of looking for used compact discs and vinyl. One of the Streetside Records in Kansas City had a massive downstairs classical "fishbowl". It was glassed off from the rest of the store and when you walked in there and the door closed behind you, it was like you had stepped into another auditory world. It was a delightful retail sensation that I don't think I'll ever experience again. Kansas City also had Classical Westport which, if memory serves, sold only classical and jazz on compact discs and vinyl. It too was glorious. In Wichita, we had a place called Compact Disc Center that let you listen to anything in the store before you purchased it. The classical music section at Compact Disc Center was curated by a good friend of mine who now hosts SiriusXM's Symphony Hall program. Needless to say, the classical music section at that store was outstanding.
As for streaming...I feel more and more like a Luddite every day. I did Spotify Premium for years until they increased their prices and I wasn't willing to pay them. I really like Qobuz, but they are a bit too pricy. I've been using Presto Music for about a month and I am enjoying it so far. It seems that they are doing the best job of all the streaming services in arranging their digi-bits in a coherent and user-friendly manner. I realize the other services have set a ludicrously low bar, but it seems like some actual thought and concern for the music is driving a few of the people working on the backend of Presto. I'll support them for now and see where things head.
I agree with you about Presto. I'm really old school (age 76) about wanting my physical discs, and now I'm burning my own from their lossless downloads. Recently got some nice Geoge Szell material from Presto that is essentially out of print or in terrible remasterings from Sony. I don't know Prestos sources, but it was fabulous sounding.
I miss the days of record stores. I come from Greece, but the description you gave at the beginning of this video about the classical music department in record stores was exactly like it was in our record stores too. Now everything is so distant and impersonal. One of the things I enjoy about your videos is that you show yourself in them, instead of simply a voice over some "professional" visual graphics or images.
You also brought to my mind George Carlin's immortal take on "Stuff". Keep up the good job. Thank you.
Thank you!
I miss the record stores. As mentioned, Cutlers in New Haven was fantastic. And then thy opened Cutlers Classical next door! Heaven. Also, the Music Box in Hamden was great. All gone. And when I was out in Royal Oak Michigan there was Harmony House Classical on Woodward Avenue. The best of all I visited.
Luckily for us, Presto Classical exists. It is everything that Amazon is not.
Back when record stores had been in business for decades already and had walking talking catalogs - salespeople who could point out treasures, who'd let you go in the back room or basement and just dig. Orpheus on Lex.....
Boy I miss real record stores. I used to take trips to Los Angeles just to go to Tower Records up on Sunset Blvd. In New York I loved the HMV and Harold Moore's in London was great, too. Amazon used to be a good source for classical, but something really has gone wrong in the past few years. Arkivmusic was great but something went wrong there, too. Now Presto and JPC are the best places for me.
When I'd drive south from Seattle I'd find some excuse to get off I-5 in Tukwila and spend some time at Silver Platters. Their prices were high, but their classical selection quite good.
I used to work in HMV in NY for a while---loved working there---helped many people. Miss record stores.
Record stores were an experience.
And Virgin store in New York
Ah, physical record stores, like Tower records Hollywood classical shop directly across the street on Sunset Blvd from their main store. And not too far from the Hollywood Billboard where Angel featured their Karajan Meistersinger - those were the days. Too much product, too little money for records. I still go there occasionally in my dreams. I can’t imagine anybody dreaming of shopping for classical music on Amazon.
I totally agree with your comments regarding discontinued discs specifically and the general disorganisation of the classical recording industry and Amazon as a major player in distribution. However, let's not get too nostalgic about the past. Unless lucky enough to live in or close to a large city, people had to go to stores with no or little choice. This created some of the parochialism of which you often speak. Some stores did indeed have interested and informed assistants who would be very helpful. On the other hand, I still squirm at the memory of a German lady who wanted some Albeniz piano music and I overheard being told 'We don't have any - Albeniz was Spanish - he wrote guitar music'. Maybe I should be ashamed of myself but I do use Amazon to purchase CDs which I don't know where I'd get otherwise. The number of really great shops is dwindling, sadly. That's not to say I couldn't get them online but I think I'd have to look around for the more obscure labels. As for reviews, I ignore those on Amazon (though will look out for your reviews in future) and tend to note your views on RUclips, of course, and those of our BBC reviewers.
The 1st summer I was a student at Tanglewood, a friend of mine(that was from the area and a fellow musician) took me to Berkshire Music Outlet one Saturday afternoon...WOW!!!!
We spent a hour and half digging thru 1000' and 1000's of CD'S, loving every minute.
I spent $100 and walked out with 23 disc...most of which were CHANDOS 👍
I recall buying lots of vinyl from Berkshire in the 1980s, and buying absolutely tons of CDs from them in the 2000-sies. Back then, huge catalogs of cutouts were available thanks to the major labels dumping a lot of their catalogs. And sometimes, whole catalogs showed up on Berkshire-like the time Koch Records bailed out of the classical business, or when Harmonia Mundi temporarily lost their US distributor, and when Seymour Solomon’s revival of Vanguard and Everest went belly-up. It’s been a while since I’ve checked Berkshire’s website, but last I looked, the pickins were a lot slimmer. I’ve lately been a regular Presto user.
Fantastic talk. Always love history chats, even if it’s recent history.
Dave, I’m working on a video project in honour of your channel and its wonderfully informative and entertaining videos. Is there an email I could send a draft to once it’s near-finished for review? I’m sorry if it’s posted somewhere obvious and I’ve failed to find it up to this point.
Amazon is as you say virtually useless. I find I can get everything I need or want from Presto in the UK for current items and from Discogs for out of print material with occasional purchases from JapanCD for Japan-only or Japan-early releases as well as all the releases from Pristine Audio for historical material. I had hopes for Apple Classical but even though there is a lot of material using it is very clunky.
I used to occasionally order from HMV Japan, but they stopped shipping OS during the pandemic.
To this day i haven't found an online streaming experience for classical that is satisfactory. There was a streaming service a few years ago called Primephonic that I liked, but it was eventually absorbed (bought out?) into Apple Music. Apple Music is very poorly organized when it comes to classical and the music streaming experience for Amazon is so bad that i don't even listen to it for regular pop radio music. I can only imagine what a mess the classical dept must be for the Amazon app/interface. Unfortunately, when it comes to classical the best experience still remains playing your favorite cd at home or listening to your own ripped list. I loved the old days of the Virgin Megastore and Tower Records classical departments. Browsing through the bins and going to the listening stations it was very easy to lose track of time. It used to be a perfect way to spend a lazy Sunday. The Barnes and Noble across the street from Lincoln Center also had a huge classical cd dept. Today, I like going to youtube and entering a specific work and conductor or specific work and orchestra and see if it's uploaded to youtube. Listening to the video on youtube is relaxing, but unfortunately not everything is uploaded to youtube.
Presto in the UK is quite good for classical, both physical media and downloading. Delivery can take a week or so, but if you're into long-form music, how impatient can you be?
I don't recall EVER buying classical music from Amazon. However I do like and appreciate Presto classical in the UK and before anyone says anything about promotion I'm merely a happy customer!
I think at Amazon human involvement with all types of products largely ends with the programmers who design the computer routines and algorithms that accept the huge influx of information from vendors and spits it out in the form of web pages. That's their operational model, and it doesn't involve paying for human labor to make specific decisions about specific products or product types. As for the chaos of their search results, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a feature, not a bug. Analogous to the brick-and-mortar operations that deliberately design stores to maximize the amount of time customers spend trying to find things, with the presumption that in the process they'll stumble on other things that they'll suddenly want to buy.
I used to love going to the Tower Records classical annex in Paramus, NJ (a stand alone building), followed by Barnes and Noble right down the road, which also had a great classical section. And my favorite place for used classical was Princeton Record Exchange!
At Turner's Record Shop the classical section was right as you came in the door, to the left. It was a very small portion of the store, as you say. The people who ran the place knew me well; I recall coming in one day and one of them handed me Berio's 2-piano concerto, saying "You want this."
And I've got 7 Lajtha discs on Naxos coming from ye olde Berkshire Record Outlet!
The most organised Classical collection I saw on sale was the basement of a used record store, stuff was organised by issuing Label, instrument, conductor or composer. It was still a mess but a understandable mess. Amazon not only don't care, they don't care about the state of the product they ship, I've had many a CD or Vinyl record arrive smashed up by them. Even Charity shops care more about music as a product of value than a faceless bunch of warehouses that treat their staff like crap.
Sam Goody in midtown Manhattan used to have a wonderful classical music section. The salesmen actually knew the music.
Can I ask a totally unrelated question as a regular here? Is this concert worth paying $90 for a decent seat to in Florida? Orpheus Chamber Orchestra with Nobuyuki Tsuji performing Chopin Piano Concerto #1 and Schumann Carnival. BTW the greatest classical vinyl / CD store in the USA is Encore Records / Liberty Music Shop in Ann Arbor which many people consider Podunk USA. As I remember, there are still glassed off listening booths so you can listen before you buy.
It's a college town--different story entirely.
As bad as the Amazon website is for classical music, its iPhone app for streaming music is arguably even worse. It often offers up bizarre artists for the music you choose. Plus, the app's character limit for descriptions truncates necessary information like who the orchestra or the conductor or the soloist is. Often you have to try to outguess the algorithm to find what you're REALLY looking for, and you know at the same time that it's (inadvertently, but still) keeping a whole bunch of gems out of reach. It's really frustrating.
Oh, yes, I remember the summer of 1998, I was writing Amazon reviews too...thousands! Those were the days!
Thanks for your commentary! This is why I mourn the passing of the Art Music Company at the corner of Telegraph and Channing in Berkeley. It also explains why I still value the guidance of, say, B.H. Haggin's "Music for the Man [sic] Who Loves Hamlet." At first I took offense at your criticism of "historic" recordings, but now I rely on your characterizations of today's artistic performances. I find Amazon a mess. We need a new version of Haggin or Kolodin or someone to help (especially) the young to build a repertoire and to experiment.
My, summoning up the name of B.H. Haggin brings up memories! Having really discovered classical music as a byproduct of a Grade 7 Music Appreciation course, my local public libraries had good selections of classical music books and I read several of Haggin's titles. He was exceptionally opinionated, but I can still recall much of the language and syntax he deployed to convince you of the merits of his point of view. A couple of his books have an entire chapter dedicated to Brahms (not in a particularly positive manner).
I watched the video expecting a statement about the poor sound quality of much of the classical music on Amazon music app. It went in another direction, but I am interested in that other topic as well.
Record Store Day. I didn't notice any classical titles. Lots of blues, jazz and soundtracks on vinyl, cassette and CD.However You Tube reviewers got people to purchase a few more copies. Laserlight Digital, my brother's favorite.
One of my biggest pet peeves is when they include comments under one product listing that are clearly meant for an entirely different product. I have brought such misplaced comments to Amazon's attention on multiple occasions and gotten nowhere. They either do not care or are too stupid to realize why it is a problem. And they do the same thing with various editions of the same book. Comments on one translation of a classic will routinely be included under a completely different translation.
The Tampa Bay area never had real classical stores like Rose or the original Tower. The closest thing was Peaches. That store even experimented briefly with stocking the complete Columbia Masterworks and RCA Red Seal catalogs. And when I say “complete,” I’m not kidding. You could even find ancient ML and LM items that Columbia and RCA was keeping in print. Everything was shelved in numerical order! To be honest, I doubt they sold much product.
Culter's is gone?! When I lived in NH in the '80s, when I am stressed out, I'd go to Cutler's and browse their offerings. Hope you get to cover Idagio. Music streaming is becoming the default listening habits of classical music listeners.
I used to purchase mp3 downloads of classical music from Amazon, but the quality was consistently very bad - the tracks sounded grainy and chopped up, much more than other mp3s I have from other sellers. Anyone else notice this? I know mp3s aren't going to have the quality of a CD or lossless format, but the same mp3s from Amazon sound noticably worse from those purchased elsewhere. If anyone can recommend an alternative platform that has a good catalog to purchase classical music mp3s for download from, I'd like to know. (I don't prefer itunes or Apple related sellers because I don't have an IPhone).
The Amazon search engine has become super frustrating in these last few years, for books as well.
Point well made. I can relate to the nostalgic remembrances of Tower Records ("The largest record store in the known world") Shopped them for years starting in the early 70's until they went belly up. They're back now, but it's just not the same. Amazon is a maze of ads and promoted stuff in all categories of merchandise. Like a big box store, only lots worse. A sign of the times, I suppose.
Korvettes had a wonderful classical music section mainly because the owners loved classical music
Agreed. Early on when I started collecting records in the mid 1970's, the E J Korvettes in Staten Island was just about my only resource.
There was a branch on 5th Ave where I got Horowitz to sign his new record then. Those were the days--my lunch time was spent there!
Agree fully regarding Amazon. I believe that ECM has created an integrated approach to their artists and music and sound that we can admire and count on - like Mercury.
I supplement any searches within Amazon by doing external search using Google (and adding the term Amazon to the search)...often this throws up multiple listings at varying prices for the same item and has the potential to save a lot of money, or at least avoid spending excessive amounts.
I often search Amazon for other countries to find even more listings, then use the ASIN number for those additional listings to go back and check any Amazon website that didn't bring them up on prior searches...this often brings up listings that can't be found using other (various) search terms.
Far worse, for me, is that reviews on Amazon are often not for the CD to which they are attached...very frustrating and misleading.
Yes, I've done that trick of searching different Amazons to compensate for the frequent poor cataloguing. It does take a while, though.
If only Amazon made profits they could plough back into making sure their listings were decently curated.
That is why I never leave comments. I am just an enthusiast, an amateur that enjoy music, so I know I will never be capable of making knowledgeable reviews about the works. I prefer to search for comments from professionals.
Do we need catalogues and professional reviewers of music now everybody can listen to the musical sources themselves and the listener can make his/her own choices? The only problem will be that streaming services like the physical mega shops in the past most likely cannot keep up publishing all the new recording and the diversity of music will end in the long run, while they will only publish music that is favourable for the masses in the end to make a profit.
Yes. We need them badly, unless you have unlimited time and knowledge. A little help from those more experienced I think is always welcome.
Amazon Germany is as messy as Amazon US, but they do have lots of stuff at unbelievably low prices. For almost anything I consider buying new, I research a bit outside of Amazon, get a product code or something like that and use it to go through Amazon's pile of junk. Amazon is definitely not a place for education, it's just a huge database and a streamlined, efficient dispatcher of packaged stuff.
I gave up on Amazon classical years ago (and Amazon books, for that matter).I agree with you that it's a joke. I go to the review sites or label sites now. In my city, Auckland New Zealand, we once had a dedicated classical music shop which was more like a music library staffed by qualified music librarians.
On the topic of search engines, there are two sites I occasionally use for printed music. Their search engines are terrible, although one of them does have the "additional criteria" option (i.e., narrow the existing search). The result listing is so long that it feels like you would be wiser just to pick a piece at random.
As for the organization of the merchandise, you would need to pick a somewhat obsessive person who was steeped in classical music. I worked for two of them, and they would easily have qualified. You would also have to pay decently. You might then avoid the idiocy of offering only three movements in MP3 of a four movement symphony.
Let's face it. We buy CDs in spite of the industry.
Great storytelling! Truly enjoyed the narrative component of this video.
And now the Arkivmusic website has gone down the tube. 😞
I don't shop from Amazon for anything. It has become very difficult for Americans to buy classical online. ArkivMusic no longer offers much of a selection.
Oh, my gosh. I remember Cutler's in New Haven. Thanks for that mention, Dave.
A question that has nothing to do with your video? Which is or were your favorite pianist? It could be an idea for videos where you can explain why a pianist is better than other and why, it would be so Interesting for people who follow you channel, just to know more and understand even better classical music, thanks in advance.
I don't have a favorite.
I agree Amazon is a terrible source for finding top classical recordings. However, as reinforced by your experience, they never really intended to be a great source. We've known for a long time AMZ wants to be everything for everyone so being a serious place for reviews of anything is impossible.
When I was first getting into this genre in the late 1990's, I would visit one of the classical music annexes of which you spoke,. My favorite happened to be a short drive in my vast suburb.
I still buy some CDs but they have to be among your top recommended albums or if I can't find the albums on the streaming service to which I subscribe (TIDAL). First place I look is typically Discogs but also eBay and Amazon as a last resort.
The paradigm is extremely messed up but I've surrendered a bit and go with recommendations by legit critics unless I have sentimental attachments to, for example, a specific orchestra.
I agree regarding customer comments on Amazon. Even if they are informed and well written you don't know whether an item is getting a good or bad review because of the performance, the recording quality, or the actual piece. If I want to know how someone has ranked a recording of, say, Bruckner's 9th (or whatever) I know I love the work, I don't want to see someone give it two stars because they don't like it regardless of whether it's a fantastic recording/performance or not.
Amazon seems to work ONLY if you know exactly what you are looking for. If you are browsing or using a general category, it sucks to a major degree.
Apple Music is just as bad. Unable to find what you want - completely disorganized, duplicates…
"Creepy people," David? Creepy... like us?? That's okay, I have no pretensions- I guess I'm getting there- or maybe to others, I long have been!
Another great one, Mr Hurwitz. Your boyhood reminiscences took me back. All true. Being slightly older, I remember the great explosion brought about by Nonesuch Records. Mid 1960s and I was very young and just discovering the world of recorded music. Nonesuch was cheaper, had fabulous cover art (eg Milton Glazer!) and felt “youthful.”Mysterious repertoire ranging from Gunther Wand’s Brandenburgs to anything Telemann (then unknown), Vivaldi concertos of every kind, Heinrich Biber, Couperin, music from the court of Maximillian I, French organ concertos…and all so beguilingly packaged for $2.49. No more having to order Purcell trio sonatas in a plain white jacket from Musical Heritage Society, and wait for weeks. In those psychedelic days it was an amazing breath of fresh air! (You only have to recall the packaging of London Records then in print to know what I mean.) Amazon? Agreed. Never use it unless you know exactly what you’re looking for. And yes, ignore all user reviews-Too many axes to grind. Thank you, as always 🙌👍🏻🙏🫶
When I started beginner band on flute, my band director told me to listen to classical music and listen for the flute and try to make the same sound I heard on the recordings. My first recording was Mahler 1 with the Boston Symphony Leinsdorf conducting. I've been buying classical music recordings ever since. LPs to Cds. Currently have over 11,000 cds.
Please make a video on Apple Music Classical
Already did.
@@DavesClassicalGuide oh my bad, I’ll go check it out now :)
What you detail is totally consistent with my experience. It is horrible.
Generally, I agree with your comments on Amazon. The one place I disagree is where you say customer comments negate the reviews of professional critics; when I see your name, or another I recognize I take that seriously. I ignore customer comments anyway.
Amazon pushes too many products - a fact that benefits me, frequently - but it tends to homogenize the output, and when it comes to Classical music, most of us require more discernment in the curation of this music. As a result, I do not go to Amazon for music, period. I am daily thankful for this channel, David and Classics Today for holding high the critical standard.
The whole of the western world has become homogenised.
It’s a war on intelligence
Exactly my experience.
I don’t want to be a complainer with no purpose, but I really don’t care for Amazon Music, the streaming service of the company. It is very disorganized and the human computer interface is weak. But I really like Apple Classical. It is a lot better organized and it gives you a choice between sampling and in-depth listening. Much better, thanks.
I've had Amazon music for a while and I agree that it's very disorganized. I was listening to an album of duets and arias on there and I forgot what it was called. I couldn't find it in my music! They need genre labeling and a better interface.
I've always thought one of the most inaccessible things about classical is that most listeners are used to music where albums are the main format.
I've always wanted to see more of a "recording-based" review of classical music, something like "the 1001 records you must own" where you could have specific releases like the Pollini late sonatas record, or the Karajan SVS records, but the problem is those things aren't treated as "albums" and the recordings get repackaged and recoupled with new catalog numbers with every rerelease...
Another aspect about Amazon that comes to my mind is the question if Amazon qualifies to be called a "respectable" seller. I come to the Amazon doesn't deserve to be called respectable, because a respectable seller for me is defined not only but also by the characteristic that he sells a product for the same fair market price as long as he has it on stock, also after the product goes out of print on the distribution side. So an unrespectable seller defines by the characteristic that as soon as a product goes out of print, he raises the price for the items he's got left up to oblivion. So everybody who's involved with Amazon long enough knows that they're a seller of the second, unrespectable category. Could you imagine that you trusted record store in whatever city you may live would sell a CD one week for 20$ and the next week, after the distributor told him that the CD is out of print now, for 100$ ? I have never experienced something like that, but Amazon does it anyway.
The customer reviews at Amazon that are the least helpful are the ones with the five star ratings that go something like this: "I received the item quickly. I gave it to my husband for his birthday. He hasn't listened to it yet."
Amazon is the same all through and all along. They are the people who made Rings of Power, the worst disaster in the history of TV series, and made it in spite of the fact that literally everybody told them it was going to be a disaster.
I like the Rings of Power.
@@peskypesky HEY, EVERYONE! Look here! We've found him! We found the one guy in all the planet who liked ROP!
@@fabiopaolobarbieri2286 Actually, a lot of people loved it. That's why they're making another season.
@@fabiopaolobarbieri2286 This is not the place for you to wage your culture war.
@@peskypesky Yes, I dare say that if you looked hard, you might find five, perhaps ten. And the reason why they are making another season is that Jeff Bezos still has enough money to waste on a vanity project.
I love Amazon’s chaos. The physical product can often be had for peanuts. The streaming service Amazon Music is a treasure trove of albums, and HD and UltraHD sound via the app is CD quality. Artist metadata is a problem, sure. But a little effort and ingenuity pays dividends. On the physical product pages, you get Hurwitz and can safely ignore “Santa Fe Listener” and the crazy late Dorati-hating Colonel, but get very useful reviews from Messrs. Fowler and Guerrero and the scriabinmahler guy whom I find helpful (and who doesn’t enjoy a sarcastic yet poetic O’Hanlon review now and again).
It's the world in a nut(digits and dollars)shell and nothing else matters. It wasn't enlightening but from a business perspective I think it started way before the online businesses began, Saturday Night Fever was the beginning of the end as far as I am concerned. Grateful to have been around when the fabulous specializing and importing businesses did well.
Patagonia...never but most of the rest of the world, even from behind the Iron curtain. The old Wergo, Melodia and Hungaroton labels, it was available, subsidized or sold well and thriving. As with everything else that has changed, well just gave to make the most of it...until there's no more than just digits and dollars which hopefully won't happen during my days. PS. I didn't know you were one of those scoundrels typing the info for Amazing. Hahaha. That was an eye opener. 🤣 At least you got something out of that mess. Brava.