Thanks for watching 💙 If you enjoyed the episode please consider subscribing to support the channel. If you'd like to support the channel further you can do so here: - Patreon: www.patreon.com/gamediscourses - Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/gamediscourses
Love how this seemingly low-key area gave us one of Uematsu's most beautiful songs. I honestly had forgotten about this plot line but gotta give props to the writers to include a different kind of "pacifist" in a world with nations at odds.
@@lionheart4424 This song's melody is lifted directly from a very famous Japanese song, to the point that Uematsu basically only did arrangement for it and to the point that I expect half of the Japanese people playing through FH would start singing the lyrics to the melody.
@@jessl1934 ah that's "Sukiyaki". Well then, I can't say I agree with you. They have different melodies, though I can agree that they could be considered similar... But just by a small part in FH. After that, they are effective different melodies and arrangements to me. I guess Japanese people can say they are reminded of that song with FH and I am no one to tell them they're wrong. Both are truly beautiful songs, and I find the fact that people can find a relation from one to the other as amazing.
Ironic how Mayor Dobe's home once you go to the second floor where his wife and him are at, if you go to the right side and search for a hidden draw point you will find the spell "Ultima" which will give you a one time draw it seems. The most destructive spell, for most pacifist person. Or a way to cement him as the "ultimate" pacifist? xD
It's a shame FF8 wasn't more ambitious about making more settlements like this that the players could've made their way through. Something that could've given travel a "Avatar The Last Airbender" feel with more side stories. The real lifeblood of FF8 was always how interesting the setting is, more than the plot itself.
To me the heart of FF8 is Squall and his character arc, and the setting feeds into that story. At least that’s the compromise they made. I actually think 8 is the most ambitious game in the ps1 ff lineup. It’s just certain elements were prioritized over others to make an experience that is uneven, but memorable and meaningful.
@@jairekambui7738well I like about Squall is him being realist(other just interpret it as a Emo well he is a bit pragmatic because of his childhood ) as most of his interaction will be him reacting about things that a person with normal mind would say but with a bleak and harsh truth in it
@@jairekambui7738 ambitious is quite a stretch as they literally rushed this along with FF9 to capitalized the popularity of FF7 but after a years FF7 is still their golden goose and never have a effort to improve or make a spin off for FF8 or even FF9 (well if the remake didn't came for FF9)
I would disagree, the plot is one of the few that actually wrap up properly. The problem is that the themes of war, the cultural forces that create it, the consequences, and the archtypes that arise go over the heads of most people. FF8 actually uses a lot of similar visual themes to FF7. And no FF8 was not rushed, it was the magnum opus of the series. It was THE most popular after release for a long time until FFX which mainly succeeded because it was the first voice acted though still one of the best. FF8 also requires the player to actually dig into the side quests and look around to get the full context of the conflict. You can actually just do the main quests and win, no need for much grind, but you will basically fall into the brainwashed soldier role. This is a lot like the original Deus Ex. Your experience is a reflection of your own character.
@@mhicorivera7802 Rushed yet still has the same main story length? 8 and especially 9 are two of the most beloved titles in the series, and it seems weird to suggest that they were only made as quickly to capitalize on the success of 7. 9 wasn’t even made by the same team because that team was working on 10 for the PS2. It was definitely an ambitious game, that much is clear from how much was cut from the final game.
Great analysis as always, and interesting to contrast with Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I'd say, though, that Bonhoeffer's position of standing up to evil was by no means new. Martin Luther wrote, "On behalf of others, [a Christian] may and should seek vengeance, justice, protection, and help, and do as much as he can to achieve it." (Luther's Works, American Edition 1999, vol 45, p.83). Before him, the Crusades were largely wars fought to defend Christian lands and Christian people (though I won't argue that they were always so noble in practice). And Jesus' pacifism was not for pacifism's sake, but was the greatest sacrifice in defense of others. "That through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14).
love these videos, been playing ff8 my entire life and got it on all my ps systems now Im playing it on my steamdeck! Theres so much to learn even after playing it for 14 years
Cowardly pacifists are oppressive? wow. Your content is certainly top tier my friend. I'm very lucky that you have such a catalogue of content for me to back-track through and enjoy.
I appreciate the way that FH is handled in FF8 diegetically however the historical and contemporary context of Japanese militarism means that I find the meta-narrative of it very troubling (not to mention a certain critical historical reading of the Balamb-Galbadia conflict which occurs during the game.)
Why troubling? The whole game is a criticism of that militarism. The entire conflict happens because the main character, Squall, through a combination of trauma, lack of information, and his own mistakes is part of a cyclical set of events. The SEEDs are not an inherently good organization, they are literal child super soldiers with magic and for the Balamb garden specifically they give over themselves to demonic entities. In universe Galbadia Garden seems them as rather insane and choose to lean on technology more than magic.
Since it was mentioned, I have to say it. Perfect Cell: “You Gohan, *are a coward* !” Gohan: “No! I am just a pacifist!” Perfect Cell: “So a coward patting himself on the back? Congratulations pint size, you can stand *proud* next to the bodies!” I internalized that in final years of teenage adolescence as pacifism solves nothing if men’s hearts are cold..
Galbadia attacks because Balamb garden literally crashes these. They brought the war to a peaceful fishing village. The SEEDs are no different than the Galbadian soldier threatening Mayor Dobe when they were in Timber City. Violence also doesn't solve the problem either as the main characters are part of the forces perpetuating the sequence of events that will lead to Ultimecia's time compression. Seems like a lot of people have that go over their heads.
Didn't you see the conversation? Galbadia was there independently to search for Ellone. They made no mention about the floating Garden nor SeeD. Also, they said that Edea (secretly Ultimecia) told them to burn the place anyway whether they found her or not. I'd like to see you reason with THAT.
I’ll always have a soft spot for those who try to exhaust peace first, but Dobe takes it too far. As Squall argues, people aren’t always willing to listen and time runs short. Sometimes the appropriate response is to fight. And this is something we see from what’s explained of Jesus of Nazareth (who was no pacifist) and his “meekness”. In the Alexandrian Greek used in the 1st century, the word related to the breaking of wild horses (as they were the best for taking into battle). They understood the tensions of war and would rise up to meet them - could meet them, could tap into that wild nature. But they could also understand the time and place for settling down. They weren’t so easily provoked. Meekness is the total control of emotion, to respond wholly appropriately. Not a thing I can say I’ve mastered, but I’m certainly trying! Still, I can see where Dobe comes from. He’s a brilliant mind and that mind was used for pure horror. Parallels some of what we see in MGS. He’s so desperate to never make that mistake again that he doesn’t realize he doesn’t actually have an answer for it. You can only hide for so long. One of my favorite characters! Thanks for this video!
@@a.d.woodbury I'm glad to see this comment. There was another one on here which did seem to come from a solid theological understanding but they argued that Jesus was a pacifist, which I think is quite obviously a mischaracterization. But in matters of theology usually that means being devout and I figured there was nothing to be gained by disputing their claim because it would likely be interpreted as an attack on their beliefs and it would get dragged down into a classic internet slapfight, so perhaps on-brand for this very topic, I let it be.
Well I think the main reason he is adamant about the Peaceful way with no second option is because of the atrocities of sorceress Adel(sill look like a man to me)
Pretty much all of the problems arise in the game because Squall does the bidding of shadowy people and because of the time loop also helps perpetuate the sequence of events. He will never see it in his lifetime, but he helps perpetuate the prejudice and suffering that drives Ultimecia to enact the time compression. In other words he's not a hero, just like Laguna whose fake movie elevated persona Seifer tries to emulate, was not really a hero. They are just men caught up in the cycle of events and do nothing to break free of it. Interestingly if either Laguna or Squall were more idealistic like Seifer they might actually have changed the course of their world's history. Now unlike FF8 we don't have to worry about persecuted magic users influencing the past (I hope), but the cycles of suffering are the same and really the whole game is a commentary on that.
@@Peaches-i2i I'm not in agreement with this take. Setting aside Squall and the consequences of staying out of the Galbadian military ambitions for argument's sake, Nietzsche's writing was distorted in service for the Nazi party aims. Christianity has been thoroughly coopted for war and things like megachurch pastors to fund their private jets. Would it be right to blame Nietzsche for something he didn't have a thing to do with? Should Jesus, or Paul I guess, get blamed for Kenneth Copeland's actions? Should Thomas Paine or Rousseau get blamed for the genocide of Native Americans? Where does this line of thinking end and how much does it run cover for the people who perpetrate horrible things while laying the blame for those choices at the feet of others who had no say in how someone chose to use their own autonomy? If authors or actors are responsible for inspiring people to do certain things in a causative way then actors are likewise merely vessels for people like other authors and philosophers and directors and screenwriters who the actors or authors are merely responding to. The logical conclusion of your argument rapidly arrives at a point of infinite regress.
Thanks for watching 💙 If you enjoyed the episode please consider subscribing to support the channel. If you'd like to support the channel further you can do so here:
- Patreon: www.patreon.com/gamediscourses
- Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/gamediscourses
What I found really funny is that the Mayor is extremely pacifist but in his house you can draw Ultimas
Love this video, love your thoughtfulness and analysis. This is such an underrated channel, I'm really grateful I found it.
Love how this seemingly low-key area gave us one of Uematsu's most beautiful songs.
I honestly had forgotten about this plot line but gotta give props to the writers to include a different kind of "pacifist" in a world with nations at odds.
@@lionheart4424 This song's melody is lifted directly from a very famous Japanese song, to the point that Uematsu basically only did arrangement for it and to the point that I expect half of the Japanese people playing through FH would start singing the lyrics to the melody.
@jessl1934 would love to know the original song. Do you know the name of it?
@lionheart4424 Ue o muite aruko (or 上を向いて歩こう in Japanese)
Uematsu himself reminds of Mayer Dobe in his clothing choices that are often wacky and experimental laidback homesick. xD
@@jessl1934 ah that's "Sukiyaki". Well then, I can't say I agree with you. They have different melodies, though I can agree that they could be considered similar... But just by a small part in FH.
After that, they are effective different melodies and arrangements to me.
I guess Japanese people can say they are reminded of that song with FH and I am no one to tell them they're wrong.
Both are truly beautiful songs, and I find the fact that people can find a relation from one to the other as amazing.
There is no virtue in standing by as atrocities are committed. To believe otherwise is the refuge of the smug coward.
But who is this for? Is it a personal mantra or a condemnation of others?
Ironic how Mayor Dobe's home once you go to the second floor where his wife and him are at, if you go to the right side and search for a hidden draw point you will find the spell "Ultima" which will give you a one time draw it seems. The most destructive spell, for most pacifist person. Or a way to cement him as the "ultimate" pacifist? xD
It's a shame FF8 wasn't more ambitious about making more settlements like this that the players could've made their way through. Something that could've given travel a "Avatar The Last Airbender" feel with more side stories. The real lifeblood of FF8 was always how interesting the setting is, more than the plot itself.
To me the heart of FF8 is Squall and his character arc, and the setting feeds into that story. At least that’s the compromise they made. I actually think 8 is the most ambitious game in the ps1 ff lineup. It’s just certain elements were prioritized over others to make an experience that is uneven, but memorable and meaningful.
@@jairekambui7738well I like about Squall is him being realist(other just interpret it as a Emo well he is a bit pragmatic because of his childhood ) as most of his interaction will be him reacting about things that a person with normal mind would say but with a bleak and harsh truth in it
@@jairekambui7738 ambitious is quite a stretch as they literally rushed this along with FF9 to capitalized the popularity of FF7 but after a years FF7 is still their golden goose and never have a effort to improve or make a spin off for FF8 or even FF9 (well if the remake didn't came for FF9)
I would disagree, the plot is one of the few that actually wrap up properly. The problem is that the themes of war, the cultural forces that create it, the consequences, and the archtypes that arise go over the heads of most people. FF8 actually uses a lot of similar visual themes to FF7. And no FF8 was not rushed, it was the magnum opus of the series. It was THE most popular after release for a long time until FFX which mainly succeeded because it was the first voice acted though still one of the best. FF8 also requires the player to actually dig into the side quests and look around to get the full context of the conflict. You can actually just do the main quests and win, no need for much grind, but you will basically fall into the brainwashed soldier role. This is a lot like the original Deus Ex. Your experience is a reflection of your own character.
@@mhicorivera7802 Rushed yet still has the same main story length? 8 and especially 9 are two of the most beloved titles in the series, and it seems weird to suggest that they were only made as quickly to capitalize on the success of 7. 9 wasn’t even made by the same team because that team was working on 10 for the PS2. It was definitely an ambitious game, that much is clear from how much was cut from the final game.
Very interesting, thanks for uploading!
Alleyway Jack I got a followup video idea:
- Cid Kramer's Dedication
- Headmaster Martine's disillusion
- Biggs and Wedge bluecollar philosophy
“Just shut your mouth! I’m sure they have their reasons!” Lmao
Well i guess I'm first this time. Square Enix needs to be paying you for all this content. O.k. now time to watch the video.
Another FF8 video, as always I thank you
Great analysis as always, and interesting to contrast with Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I'd say, though, that Bonhoeffer's position of standing up to evil was by no means new. Martin Luther wrote, "On behalf of others, [a Christian] may and should seek vengeance, justice, protection, and help, and do as much as he can to achieve it." (Luther's Works, American Edition 1999, vol 45, p.83). Before him, the Crusades were largely wars fought to defend Christian lands and Christian people (though I won't argue that they were always so noble in practice). And Jesus' pacifism was not for pacifism's sake, but was the greatest sacrifice in defense of others. "That through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14).
love these videos, been playing ff8 my entire life and got it on all my ps systems now Im playing it on my steamdeck! Theres so much to learn even after playing it for 14 years
Cowardly pacifists are oppressive? wow. Your content is certainly top tier my friend.
I'm very lucky that you have such a catalogue of content for me to back-track through and enjoy.
I appreciate the way that FH is handled in FF8 diegetically however the historical and contemporary context of Japanese militarism means that I find the meta-narrative of it very troubling (not to mention a certain critical historical reading of the Balamb-Galbadia conflict which occurs during the game.)
Why troubling? The whole game is a criticism of that militarism. The entire conflict happens because the main character, Squall, through a combination of trauma, lack of information, and his own mistakes is part of a cyclical set of events. The SEEDs are not an inherently good organization, they are literal child super soldiers with magic and for the Balamb garden specifically they give over themselves to demonic entities. In universe Galbadia Garden seems them as rather insane and choose to lean on technology more than magic.
Since it was mentioned, I have to say it.
Perfect Cell: “You Gohan, *are a coward* !”
Gohan: “No! I am just a pacifist!”
Perfect Cell: “So a coward patting himself on the back? Congratulations pint size, you can stand *proud* next to the bodies!”
I internalized that in final years of teenage adolescence as pacifism solves nothing if men’s hearts are cold..
He had no enemies
Galbadia attacks because Balamb garden literally crashes these. They brought the war to a peaceful fishing village. The SEEDs are no different than the Galbadian soldier threatening Mayor Dobe when they were in Timber City. Violence also doesn't solve the problem either as the main characters are part of the forces perpetuating the sequence of events that will lead to Ultimecia's time compression. Seems like a lot of people have that go over their heads.
Didn't you see the conversation? Galbadia was there independently to search for Ellone. They made no mention about the floating Garden nor SeeD. Also, they said that Edea (secretly Ultimecia) told them to burn the place anyway whether they found her or not. I'd like to see you reason with THAT.
I’ll always have a soft spot for those who try to exhaust peace first, but Dobe takes it too far. As Squall argues, people aren’t always willing to listen and time runs short. Sometimes the appropriate response is to fight.
And this is something we see from what’s explained of Jesus of Nazareth (who was no pacifist) and his “meekness”. In the Alexandrian Greek used in the 1st century, the word related to the breaking of wild horses (as they were the best for taking into battle).
They understood the tensions of war and would rise up to meet them - could meet them, could tap into that wild nature. But they could also understand the time and place for settling down. They weren’t so easily provoked. Meekness is the total control of emotion, to respond wholly appropriately. Not a thing I can say I’ve mastered, but I’m certainly trying!
Still, I can see where Dobe comes from. He’s a brilliant mind and that mind was used for pure horror. Parallels some of what we see in MGS. He’s so desperate to never make that mistake again that he doesn’t realize he doesn’t actually have an answer for it. You can only hide for so long.
One of my favorite characters! Thanks for this video!
@@a.d.woodbury I'm glad to see this comment. There was another one on here which did seem to come from a solid theological understanding but they argued that Jesus was a pacifist, which I think is quite obviously a mischaracterization.
But in matters of theology usually that means being devout and I figured there was nothing to be gained by disputing their claim because it would likely be interpreted as an attack on their beliefs and it would get dragged down into a classic internet slapfight, so perhaps on-brand for this very topic, I let it be.
Great comment. 🤝
Well I think the main reason he is adamant about the Peaceful way with no second option is because of the atrocities of sorceress Adel(sill look like a man to me)
Pretty much all of the problems arise in the game because Squall does the bidding of shadowy people and because of the time loop also helps perpetuate the sequence of events. He will never see it in his lifetime, but he helps perpetuate the prejudice and suffering that drives Ultimecia to enact the time compression. In other words he's not a hero, just like Laguna whose fake movie elevated persona Seifer tries to emulate, was not really a hero. They are just men caught up in the cycle of events and do nothing to break free of it. Interestingly if either Laguna or Squall were more idealistic like Seifer they might actually have changed the course of their world's history. Now unlike FF8 we don't have to worry about persecuted magic users influencing the past (I hope), but the cycles of suffering are the same and really the whole game is a commentary on that.
@@Peaches-i2i I'm not in agreement with this take.
Setting aside Squall and the consequences of staying out of the Galbadian military ambitions for argument's sake, Nietzsche's writing was distorted in service for the Nazi party aims. Christianity has been thoroughly coopted for war and things like megachurch pastors to fund their private jets.
Would it be right to blame Nietzsche for something he didn't have a thing to do with?
Should Jesus, or Paul I guess, get blamed for Kenneth Copeland's actions?
Should Thomas Paine or Rousseau get blamed for the genocide of Native Americans?
Where does this line of thinking end and how much does it run cover for the people who perpetrate horrible things while laying the blame for those choices at the feet of others who had no say in how someone chose to use their own autonomy?
If authors or actors are responsible for inspiring people to do certain things in a causative way then actors are likewise merely vessels for people like other authors and philosophers and directors and screenwriters who the actors or authors are merely responding to.
The logical conclusion of your argument rapidly arrives at a point of infinite regress.
God is dead and we have killed him - Friedrich Nietzsche