Anan Ben David and Karaism Jewish History Lecture by Dr. Henry Abramson
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- Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2012
- Jewish history lecture by Dr. Henry (Hillel) Abramson on Anan ben David, an eighth-century Jewish thinker in Babylonia who is considered by many to be the progenitor of Karaism. Part of the Jewish History Lecture Series at Young Israel of Bal Harbour. For more information visit www.jewishhistorylectures.org.
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Dear Dr Abramson, I'm not Jewish myself but I am always fascinated by Jewish history. I enjoyed your lecture immensely and I shall subscribe to your channel. Thank you for sharing your lecture.
No.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD
Avi Hillel!
What a great joke. Soooo true.
I myself met the very same guy LOL
It is quite enjoyable witnessing learned Jews politely arguing history Torah etc etc
Such great passion and adoration foreknowledge.
I'm glad that you enjoyed the video!
Just discovered this lesson. I can't believe how much information you, Dr Abramson, can pack into a 1 hour lecture and still be organized, informative and entertaining. Do keep the jokes coming!
I applaud you for a most interesting and informative presentation - and also for the jokes.
Thanks Rabbi for excellent approach and the introduction of Islam in a positive light, god bless you..Fantastic lecture..,
We do not believe that Anan was our "founding father". We also derive our Halakah from the whole of TaNaKh, not just the five books of Moshe.
This is a result of the conflation among many Orthodox Jews between the Samaritans and the Karaites.
Joe Davidi you mean between the Karaite Jews and the Karaylar who do respect the beliefs of Anan ben David and do derive all our laws from the five books of Moshe not the TaNaKh (otherwise we would observe Purim).
@Toby Henderson What is Deuteronomy?
MGRpdx What about your oral laws?
@@KaraiteChurch I personally do not think you're a member of the eastern European Karaylar. They practice a convoluted, Turkic, somewhat paganized version of Qaraism and do not consider only the Torah their source of laws. At any rate, the Qaraites do respect some of Anan's ideas. I think you're a Christian masquerading as a Karaylar member.
I have nothing against the Jew who provoked this thread (apart from the fact he zealously votes Democrat in the US presidential elections), but he was not born into a traditional Qaraite family and therefore cannot speak for them. The traditional Qaraites do erroneously consider Anan their movement's founding father, which is rather unfortunate.
Within the first 30 seconds this guy is already wrong. Karaites Believe one person is their founder and that is MOSES.
Second, it didn't split off from Judaism IT IS judaism as practiced by the Priests of the Holy Temple and the Levites who were mostly killed during the destructions of the Temple as well as being killed by the progenitors of the Rabbis, the Pharisees.
Perhaps some Qaraite Jews, notably non-traditional ones, believe that Moshe b. `Amram is their "founder", but I have seen no evidence that this is the traditional Qaraite conviction, historically.
It does not really make sense since Qaraite Judaism, notwithstanding revisionism which even Qaraite authors engaged in in attempts to place the founding of this movement in Biblical times, is based on the entire Miqra -- all 24 books -- rather than the Torah itself or the Torah + Prophets alone, to name 2 examples.
Moreover, there is a crucial even if seemingly minor difference between Qaraite Judaism and the authentic Second Temple Judaism of the Miqra from pre-Pharisaic times -- Qaraism can manage without Har haBayit and does not demand the right to worship on it, which is the precise opposite of pre-Pharisaic Biblical Judaism. Secondly, original Judaism demanded that the priests & Levites lead it, something that Qaraism never insisted on for itself. And where are all the animal, flora and flour offerings in Qaraite Judaism? Or even some version of frankinscence smoking, which the non-Jewish Samaritans preserved in some form?
Therefore, while I totally understand why many people conflate Qaraite Judaism for pre-Pharisaic Biblical Judaism, this owes to an absence of sufficient rigor.
@@ZviJ1 "this owes to an absence of sufficient rigor." Beautifully said
Awesome response
Freedom of speech American Constitution with oars , vi. KING without
a prayer is vi. king with prayer for a cross. Nothing wrong on water or dry
land unless against Mitzvot law; Court
unbiased as to race or creed.
This gentleman is an excellent lecturer and it would be great if many "Rabbis" sat in on his lectures and learned how to deliver a speech, sermon, comment, talk, etc. I get nauseous listening to some rabbis when I must sit through a bar or baht mitz due to social obligations.
Why isn't there any study of Chumash/Tanach in yeshivot???
There is. I spent years in yeshivah. I should know
@@goldengun9970 My husband told me that in most yeshivas they don't study Tanach.
Excellent lecture as always. One small quibble: by the time of the spread of Islam, North Africa would have been pretty thoroughly Christian rather than pagan. North Africa was an integral part of the Roman empire, which had been officially Christian for three centuries or so by the time of Muhammad. Some very prominent early church fathers were north African: Augustine, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, and Athanasius, among others; all of them extremely influential in the development of Christian theology. Asia Minor would also have been predominantly Christian, being part of the Roman and later the Byzantine empires.
Give me that old time religion, old time religion, give me that old time religion, it's good enough for me
it was good enough for Abraham, it was good enough for Abraham it was good enough for Abraham, it's good enough for me....
I remember seeing some research into the Russian Karaites, and someone was claiming that they are actually a Christian sect and have no connection to the Jewish Karaites. Have you seen anything about this?
a great lecturer
I not think the Karaite is the new creation and heterodox. The Talmud is the new creation and heterodox by the rabbi. Rabbi came later in the history. Before rabbi was the Tanak and not Talmud. Because I not the Jew maybe my understand is not the correct. But Karaite say everywhere in Tanak talk about patrilineal line not the matrimonial line so why talmud say the Jew depend on the mother. If peoples think I having the wrong idea please do the correct to me.
You are correct.
Tapasya Tyaga you are right no doubt about it.
And I think that both Karaite and Rabbanite Judaisms are equally legitimate expressions of Torah. The Rabbanites claim that in order to truly understand the Written Torah you need a set of Oral traditions and these traditions were codified in the Mishna to keep them from being forgotten, and the Talmud is the Mishnah plus it's attendant discussions. Whose to say that the Rabbanites are wrong? Karaites say that the Written Torah is enough but oral traditions do exist that help us understand difficult Torah passages--only the Talmud isn't it. And whose to say the Karaites are wrong? Rabbanite Judaism holds that the Talmud was a necessary development to protect these Oral traditions from being adulterated so they had to be codified. And whose to say the Rabbanites were wrong to do this? The Karaites say that the oral traditions can't be codified because their power is not prescriptive but persuasive. And whose to say the Karaites are wrong about this?
We also have Samaritans and Ethiopian Heymanot Judaism and whose to say these traditions are wrong?
The best we can do is have respect for everybody---Rabbanites, Karaites, and others. Let all adhere to the integrity of their teachings.
In a strictly chronological sense, the Qaraites came later than the rabbis in history. The earliest rabbis were the Pharisees after the AD 70 Destruction and at this time no Qaraite Jews existed. Qaraite Judaism was born in ~ AD800 (a few say the 2nd century) as a reaction to the rabbis' unacceptable excesses.
Other than this, Mr. Tyaga is correct.
If you go to any Karait synagogue or talk to any Karait Jew and ask them of their customs, you would be surprised to find some shocking "coincidences."
Many of their customs emulate Talmudic practices, that do not at all resemble what is said in the Torah. For example, look at their Torah scrolls. There is nothing in the Torah that says that it must be on a scroll. The way the scrolls are made. There is nothing in the Tanach that says that it must be made or animal skin, scored, written with black ink, have all 5 books on one scroll, etc. That is all Talmud.
Prayer 3 times per day: a talmudic practice.
And many many more.
With all due respect, the religion is a bootleg version of Rabbinical Judaism - the Judaism that we got from Moses.
This is fascinating!
Dr. Abramson, a note about Karaites in the Holocaust: it is impossible to offer a homogeneous portrait of their condition during those years. While the Polish Karaites were saved, largely due to the efforts of Yivo scholars who told the nazis that the Karaites were ethnic Turks and not Jews, the case was not the same for the Karaites who lived in Odessa and Kiev. Hundreds of them were gunned down at Babi Yar.
In Lithuania, the picture is considerably murky. Israel Cohen in his TRAVELS IN WORLD JEWRY reported (shortly after the shoah) that the Karaites of Troki (Trakai), were murdered along with their Rabbanite brethren. This is interesting, considering that though relations between Rabbanites and Karaites there were usually cordial before the war, after the shoah, there were some accusations of collusion with the nazis-a subject that deserves an entire lecture in and of itself (see for instance here www.jpress.nli.org.il/Olive/APA/NLI_heb/?action=search&text=%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99%D7%9D%20%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%90%D7%94
In 1950 (when the first reports of Karaites making aliyah made their way to the media) a survivor of the Vilna Ghetto, a Mr. M. Dvoretzky wrote a letter to the editor of the Davar newspaper where he related that the Karaites of the aforementioned city collaborated with the nazis. During those times, many Rabbanite Jews pretended to be Karaites in order to save themselves (clearly implying that in Vilna Karaites were indeed exempt). However the leader of the Vilna Karaites, (the notorious) Seraya Shapshal, handed the nazis a list of all the members of his community, thereby condemning the aforementioned Rabbanites to a certain death. He concludes the letter, remarkably enough, by saying that we should not reject them if they want to join the fledgling state but rather remember to stay vigilant and be aware of the past.
Also your assertion that the nazis cared only about race and not about religion is erroneous. There are no shortage of ethic non-Jews who were murdered for either being Jewish converts or even practicing Jewish-like rituals (subotnikim). The National-Socialist Party had it out for Judaism-not just for Jews. I am sure you know Hitler's famous remark about Judaism putting the blight of conscience on the human race.
P.S. Israeli Karaites all serve in the army and they're actually very well integrated in Israeli society (although it often came at the price of losing their uniqueness). The vast majority of Karaites nowadays are intermarried with Rabbanites. Some still hold on to tradition but a great majority of them easily fall under the category of secular.Israelis.
I should just clarify a couple of points I am sure Joe realises but for some reason has hidden from you. The Karaites executed at Babi Yar were definitely Karaylar believers in Christ, not Karaite Jews. And only 18 Karaylar on Shapshal's list survived, he had filled his list with orthodox Jewish names in an effort to save as many as he could. His list was no more a condemnation of other orthodox Jews than Schindler's list was. It is extremely unnecessary defamation of his character to suggest otherwise. We hope one day when all of his books are published that his story will be looked at again and perhaps he will finally be merited a memorial plaque among the other Tzadikei Umot Ha-Olam in Israel.
+Karaite Church - Excuse me, but every Karaite that I have met would never identify even slightly with Christians in any way at all. They are strict monotheist believers, whether from Eastern Europe or from Egypt.
And at the hazard of repeating something you already stated in your lecture, Dr. Abramson, the Nazis wiped out the Qaraite community of Tesalonika in Greece, which had never denied its Jewishness and being part of the Jewish people.
@"Karaite Church" -- even if you are correct in attributing to Szapszal an attempt to save as many Rabbinic Jews as he could through the list he composed, which personally seems to me a lie (not that I actually intend to offend you), he was overall a wicked man who had maliciously detached the eastern European Qaraites from Judaism and the Jewish people altogether. All of this diabolic endeavor precludes him from meriting any honor as a Ḥasid Umot ha`Olam since he is not one, and I will applaud any individual who pisses on his grave or commits any act of this nature to desecrate his memory.
COMMON LAW excludes dumb violence
with folk understanding Ten Commitzvot
. ' HOW ' is tradition of American Indian
'hello'.
Gee whiz, I'm almost frozen in
' me ' house mate.
I presume that the Karaites did not imagine ever living in a country with cold winters? Since preserving life takes priority, and in some places a whole day without a fire would threaten life.
They lived for instance in Lithuania for centuries and found some solutions. They're less stupid than some people prefer to believe.
There was indeed a great Jewish pro football player: Ron Mix, a lineman with the San Diego Chargers (USC - 1960's) who then went law school and represented the teams owner. He was ENORMOUS and could not use European bathroom fixtures because he was too tall, and was very nice to younger female Stanford students who COULD speak a little French, which he could not. I am not Jewish but my grandmother Ida Tarbell was, to the benefit of all.
Your grandmother was a wonderful person.
Like the lessons
A 1st century Rabbi changed 1,500 years of paternal tradition for determining Jewish descent.
Dr. Abrahamson, you made a brief mention re. Firkovich and Greek Orthodoxy. What were you referring to? I recall a passage from Dan Shapira's 'biography' of the man where he relates an incident where Firkovich was grabbed by his long hair in the Karaite Kenesa in Istanbul (in the midst of a feud with one of his opponent) "which he chose to wear in the manner of the Greek Orthodox clergy for reasons known best to him"..
Whatever that's supposed to mean.
***** Thanks. Looking forward.
when is Shavuot? I read in exodus 19:1 that is after 3 months from the Passover why do you celebrate it after 50 days? thank you
I studied Classical Greek at school and my Greek teacher told me the same joke except it was a Greek and a Turk instead of two Jews. It was a good joke then and it's a good joke now.
Thank you, this is so informative!
You're so welcome! I'm glad that it was helpful.
Thank you for being a Public Subscriber!
my father was jewish and mother ethnic German, am I jewish?
Thanks for the informative lecture! I've read there is a disputed claim there was a polytheistic fertility ritual which involved eating a kid cooked in its mother's milk and that the prohibition might be connected to this. Pehaps the topic of onanism(as opposed to Ananism) could be touched on if you do a lecture on Portnoy's Complaint by Roth.
Sure admittedly I was being a little tongue-in-cheek with that one though in all seriousness I think an overview of major Jewish authors(perhaps something in the vein of your lecture on Shalom Aleichem or Franz Kafka) might make an interesing topic(Roth, Malamud, Singer, Bellow, Potok et al)
"Meat boiled in milk is undoubtedly gross food, and makes overfull; but I think that most probably it is also prohibited because it is somehow connected with idolatry, forming perhaps part of the service, or being used on some festival of the heathen. I find a support for this view in the circumstance that the Law mentions the prohibition twice after the commandment given concerning the festivals “Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God” (Exod. xxiii. 17, and xxxiv. 73), as if to say, “When you come before me on your festivals, do not seethe your food in the manner as the heathen used to do.”
Maimonides, Guide for the Perplexed, III:48 (Friedlander ed.).
From www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/9313/Boiling-Kid-its-Mothers-Milk.htm which in turn is quoting from A Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge:
"The true sense of this passage seems to be that assigned by Dr. Cudworth, from a MS. comment of a Karaïte Jew. 'It was a custom with the ancient heathens, when they had gathered in all their fruits, to take a kid, and boil it in the dam's milk; and then in a magical way, to go about and sprinkle all their trees, and fields, and gardens, and orchards with it, thinking by these means, that they should make them fruitful, and bring forth more abundantly in the following year. Wherefore, God forbad his people, at the time of their in-gathering, to use any such superstitious or idolatrous rite.'"
I could see a few historical tie-ins: A lecture about Malamud could use his novel The Fixer as a springboard to discuss the destructive impact of the ritual murder canard. Potok to discuss Hasidism in America generally and questions surrounding its portrayal in popular culture specifically etc
Dr. Abramson, I've always been curious, what did Rav Meir Kahane and the Kach Movement think of Karaites, and also Messianics and Samaritans?
Some Qaraite once told a story where Kahane issued vituperation against the Qaraites, but I could not find anything to corroborate his claims. It is not unlikely that the story was made up by this man, who is not quite well mentally.
Messianics are straight out a chrustian denomination. And Samaritans are non Jews as well those 2 groups are not at all jewish with zero question
@@goldengun9970 Messianics are also straight up ethnically Jewish
@@goldengun9970 Christian is not an ethnic group. They are literally ethnic Jews.
It's actually disgusting. Yall will accept a 75% secular population as Jews but not less than 1% messianic one
@@TheCynicogue no. They are in no way ethnically jewish. Just a christian denomination and nothing else. Due to their proselytising we know all about them. Theybare as ethnically jewish as any other christian denomination which is not at all
And the terms they use like completed jew or messianic jew is just because they know Jews have an aversion to the word christian and they want to convert Jews. They will call baptism mikvah for the same reason and try say jesus in hebrew fir the same reason. You should see on youtube a passover Seder they run, will literally make one want to throw up. This wine is the blood of jesus. This matzo holes is jesus holes in his hands.... unbelievably deceptive and 100% a christian denomination . All fundamentals are pure christianity too because as I keep telling you. They are christians. Work hand in hand with Jews for jesus and other evangels trying to convert Jews
Jews have much more in common and are more family with Muslims who are also not Jews
The moslem that saved Anan's ass is called Abou Hanifa who was also against the overuse of Hadith(the muslim oral tradition).. lately there is a revival of this idea of returning to quran and Quran alone by a lot of intellectuals.. they are libelled Quranites.. it sounds like Karanites because they share the same root (قرأ).. I hope Karanism and Quranism do get to know each other, may they could diffuse some of the animosity that's taking place between the oral tradition followers
In the past decade, two Qur'anist Muslims partook for a while in discussions at a Qaraite group on Facebook. One of them ultimately became an atheist, probably owing to all that discourse. While not being a Qaraite per se, I've encountered 2 or 3 Qur'anists on this site.
@@ZviJ1 yeah me too I know some quranists that became atheists or agnostics.. i think they want that everything in quran should be explained with reason.. like some prophets miracles and some ancient stories.. for me as far as the commandments are clear and dont contradict human nature, I will keep my faith
Thanks!
Nice to see you enjoyed the video! Thanks for the support.
Can you help me with info on conversion please? I live in Spokane and am wanting to convert but the only website I find is karaite corner and they have things linked to nehemiah gordon AND Im not finding anything there that would give me a recognized conversion.
I have already been torah observant for a number years. I am circumscribed, but have not had a mikvah.
I study all the time. My grandfather on my moms side was jewish, he was born in the jugendstrasse in germany before the war. He came to NYC as a boy and when he was a teen, he walked away from religion all together.
My mom was sent to be with relatives during the war years because my grandfather went to war and the relatives my mom was sent to were catholic. After the war, there was a custody battle and the relatives won and they raised my mother, as a catholic.
My dad side were jewish before the turn of the century, sephardi jewish. They converted to some version of christianity and my grandmother on my dads side, also came from a converted jewish home, but what they converted to was evil, magic. My grandmother was a witch. Not this wiccan non sense, she was a real bona fide witch, black magic, spells, curses, summoning, ritual sex and ritual child abuse among other things. There was no wiccan back then...
I am the first in well over 100 years of family history to seek G-d and not with words or how it looks for me to the neighbors. I want to return my family to its roots.
So Im not sure I like rabbinic judiasm, Id prefer karaite but I want to be recognized legal jewish by Israel.
Being in Spokane I am somewhat cut off. Id appreciate any help you can give me, thanks.
David.
+David Yisrael - Actually there is a local bet din there that helps people with conversions, but it is located in Seattle. You are more fortunate than some.
Washington
Seattle
Va’ad Harabanim of Greater Seattle
Rabbi Moshe Kletenik
(+)1-206-721-0970
rabbimyk@bcmhseattle.org
Sweetheart, we in Judaism are not Chrisitians and there is no self-conversion in any Jewish movement, not even in the Miqra (Jewish Bible). Ruth's story amply bears this out. Stop misleading others about a topic you do not sufficiently know. Observing the Torah properly is commendable, it constitutes a deep relationship with the Creator and is much better than being a Noahide, but does not render anyone an Israelite.
You are entitled not to care about personally being adopted by the Jewish community as a full-fledged Jew.
PS your argument is not with me...it is with chazal ( sages) Rambam,Rashi,Ramban ,Yochanan Ben Zachi...the facts I relay are not mine..Reform also rejects Talmud but also does not consider Torah divine either...
Reform have zero credibility. Same as conservative
What one chanukiah please do bach there ?
With all do Respekt,the big Problem is, that your Talmud is Changing the Term of "Who is a "Jew" " from Father (That what the Torah says) to Mother (Your Talmud) Or The Shemitah Law your Talmud changed it from all guilt is forgiven to you guilt it for the rest of your life and it goes on to the next generation, as it is written ... by their interpretations they made the word lie! This is the Reason that Yahadut Qarait criticize u ...U are changing The Word of The Almighty for your benefits! u see? I Hope so, I realy do!
Very good lecture as usual as to Karaits serving in the army they do I have a Karaite friend who served in the IDF .However the orthodox rabanut do not accept them as Jews . he is not a religious person and was brought up in a boarding school in a town where there is no Karai community when he had his bar-mitzva the orthofox would not accept him and he had his bar mitzva in a Conservative shul . When he got married again the religious authorities would not accept his Judaism and he had a civil marriage outside the country
mike levy
How sad for your friend.
@Toby Henderson Their reluctance to answer is the least of evils. In worse cases they launch into diatribes of slander that can last for months on end. Happened to me multiple times. The only way to emerge victorious from such encounters, if you choose not to abandon them, is to pound them to paste.
It sounds like the Karaites would be today’s constitutional originalists who ask: How was the Torah viewed by the people who received it.
The Rabbi’s would be like the intellectual elite who believe that we can’t understand the Torah without them.
After the first exile it seems like the Jewish religion would have been nearly lost if not for Rabbinic tradition and since there were no Karaites at the time then the Karaites were in essence trying to rewrite tradition by denying what had already been accepted.
However, the Rabbinic tradition ends with the closing of the Talmud so now everything is viewed based on how the Talmud would interpret it.
My comment reminds me of Tevya from Fiddler...on the other hand...
It’s so confusing. 🧐 🤷♂️ 🤔 I see both points. Why couldn’t they all just get along..........
Interesting comparison
Deuteronomy 27-30 gives all the blessings and curses, including death. Not to mention the 7 times it tells you the torah is a written torah recorded in the book. In these four chapters, 7 possibly 8 times it says The torah is written down. All the way down to here.
Deut 30:9-10
For the LORD will again delight in your well-being, as He did in that of your fathers, 10 since you will be heeding the LORD your God and keeping His commandments and laws that are recorded in this book of the Teaching-once you return to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 Surely, this Instruction which I enjoin upon you this day is not too baffling for you, nor is it beyond reach. 12 It is not in the heavens, that you should say, “Who among us can go up tothe heavens and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?” 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?” 14 No, the thing is very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to observe it.
These verses seem to refute the opinions of the Rabbis 30:01, in favor of Karaism. By the way, 55:55 it's the Rabbinics that have changed the calendar with their postponements! www.njop.org/html/printfiles/YomKippur5771print.html
facebook.com/larry.sterner.31/about?section=bio&pnref=about
Me Very Messy
Excellent!🌹
But isn't reinterpreting what God said changing what God meant?? ex: 'a tooth for a tooth' Maybe that is what God actually meant. Why should it be softened? (asking for the sake of argument)
Like it would be the worst thing in the world if people brought different “goodly fruits” to sukkot.... The Rabbis are like “ ohhhhhh nooo!!!! This is too complicated for us!! Lol
Pineapples would be weird.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD as long as you are using chicken and not pork to pair it with, it could still make for a kosher pizza, no?
Do Karaites believe that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were Karaites? or: do they believe that the 1st Karaites was Moses?
Karaites are first and foremost a group within the larger Jewish people. Until Rabbinates began to look to the writings of the Rabbis in the Oral traditions as being equal or more significant than the word of God, there would not have been a reason to have a group like the Karaites within Judaism. Their faith and observance of God’s word is on the basis of the Tanakh alone. The oral traditions of the Rabbis are not usually shunned by Karaites, but they are looked at more of as commentary that can be heeded or dismissed. Definitely not in anyway equal to God’s word (Tanakh) which Karaites keep with close observance. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were the beginnings of Israel but had no written Bible that we know of. In that Moses was the first notable prophet to write down a previously oral history of our people, and continue with the writing of the rest of Torah he could loosely be called a Karaite in that his faith is founded on the basis of those writings, but in the way that we would use the term Karaite today it would usually be attributed to have started with Anan Ben David in the mid 700’s of the common era. This would make Karaites the oldest sect within Judaism that is still around today.
The notion that `Anan b. Dawid (OBM) founded the Qaraite movement has long been disproved by modern scholarship. The likeliest scholarly argument is that the movement began in the early 9th century.
It should be a no-brainer to all Jews that Moshe b. `Amram, our first prophet, could not have been a Qaraite, seeing that Qaraite Judaism, by definition, is based upon the entire Miqra rather than the Torah alone. In his time there was no Purim and the Qaraite notion that regular daily prayer can substitute for the two regular sheep offerings (morning + evening) had not existed yet. And these two examples are merely the proverbial iceberg's tip.
The North Africa you speak of as pagan had in fact been largely Christian for centuries, as part of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Visigothic Arians.
Christianity is pagan
The karaite Jews were NOT spared in the Holocaust, we simply were not THERE AT ALL IN THE FIRST PLACE. you are getting us mixed up with Crimean karaites from turkey aka karaite karaites, similar name completely different people, like a type of muslim. Nothing to do with us at all. Not at all. Because of this misunderstanding people think we were all buddy buddy with the Nazis, not true, not even on the same part of the planet as the Nazis at the time. Our only crime is having a similar name to a Muslim like Turkish group.
This is not entirely correct. The main reason is that the Nazis eradicated the Qaraite Jewish community of Tesalonika, that had never taken the route of denying their Judaism and ties to the rest of the Jewish people. Nehemia Gordon's article on "Qaraites in the Holocaust" is not only flawed, but tendentious and misleading. I suspect he deliberately ignored the Tesalonika case when he authored his article.
If your Qur'an "fixes man made changes" in Tanach and Gospel, you just follow Qur'an and nothing else.
I can also "fix" Qur'an, erase things I don't like and say "I follow Qur'an after a little fixing of it's mistakes". Would that make sense?
No. Tanach has not been altered and it is ridiculous to claim koran is true and thus tanach was altered
Is there any conection between Karaites and Frankists regarding the fact they all were abandoned Talmud and lived near Khazaria? Also, is there a possibilitie that heksagram has been used by Karaites and in Khasaria as a Jew simbol, but disapeard with Khasarian empire until 18th century when showed UP again?
These questions smack of an attempt to indirectly introduce the Khazar canard into the subject.
In Yeshiva, the Talmud and Mishnah Torah are taught, not Torah
the '"jewish"' interpretation of a 'jew' might be: "A gentile who has been converted as a heathen who has been either 'baptized' or had a 'catechism' ....where according to 'TORAH' the father has determined that. unless you would rather except the 'rabbinic' law which states it ie the mother. at the risk of being considered a heritic; who is to say that it was the bastard children of Reuben that forced the Sanhedrin to make it 'law'
And this:
A Taste of Karaite Judaism in 30 Minutes or Less (Part 2)
Amazing: Karai or Koran, both come from read or recite. The Karaite claim nothing different regarding the torah from what islam claim. Apply the strict mosaic law. Most of people do not know that. In the begining at Medina, prophet Mouhammad obeyed the torah law till he peogressively got his own revelation regarding the issue he faced.Though, a huge part of islamic law are still based on it. Those which were abrogated because THE GOD wanted to ease some of the constraint in teh mosaic law
You might enjoy this:
A Taste of Karaite Judaism In 30 Minutes or Less (Part 1)
so, that would make me a Neo-Karaite ? do they sing ?
First of all you thought that the IICK are Neo Karaites, but this is not the case. The Muslim who Anan met in prison was Imam Abu Hanifa Nauman ibn Thabit. However he was not later released. Hi starved to death in prison and it is our belief that Anan was his last and most perfect student. Abu Hanifa passed his authority to Anan and said tell "the Caliph that you are no longer the leader of the Jews, but are the leader of Karaites" who are the Karaite Church later called Ananites, as you correctly point out at the beginning of the lecture, quite a distinct and different sect from the later Karaite Jews. We Ananite Karaims believe that the "Talmud" which Anan gave us is the Peshitta and the Karæan having shown proofs from the Scriptures for his beliefs. The later Karaite Jews however did not accept Anan's interpretation and so they developed their own Sevel Ha-Yerushah. However, I want to congratulate you on accurate depiction of Karaite Judaism basically has a different "Talmud" (Sevel Ha-Yerushah) from Orthodox Jews. This is absolutely correct. And we Karaims (not Karaite Jews) also have our own independent traditions again,which is much more like the (if I may use your own words) "One Catholic Church of Karaism" and rejects Benjamin Nahawandi's position. Aramaic is our liturgical language rather than Hebrew.
Why is Aramaic your liturgical language and not Hebrew?
I am sure you are aware of the negative attitudes towards that language (and conversely the yearning to return to the pure Biblical Hebrew) by such Karaite luminaries as Nissi ben Noah, Daniel Al-Qumisi and others.
Joe Davidi I think you are confusing two different religions. (actually I know you are, but I am just trying to be polite ;) )Daniel Al-Qumisi has nothing to do with Anan ben David. In fact Qumisi was vehemently opposed to Anan's sect. Karaylar believe the same things that Anan believed (e.g. in Yeshuah and Mahamad) while Qumisi mocked Anan's statement "If you don't believe me see for yourself" by making it a dictum to teach Karaites exactly not to believe Anan but rather to search for themselves instead. These are two completely diametrically opposed approaches. Aramaic is highly respected in our faith. Nissi also stands for a different sect even though Firkovich attributed the Sefer 'Aseret ha-Debarim to him, Firkovich was accused by Szapszal of being a falsifier.Firkovich himself acknowledged this his Karaims were a fusion of Turkic Khazar traditions of the Karaylar with the Karaite Jewish traditions of Crimea (who settled there during the Ottoman period, though Firkovich also forged the antiquity of their presence there by adjusting the engravings on Krymchak graves to make them appear as ancient Karaim).
Karaite Church
Well I appreciate your politeness but I have to (politely) disagree. Several points:
You are correct that Qumisi was not an Annanite and neither was Nissi. Perhaps I am not educated enough abut your particular creed but as far as I understand Firkovich certainly considered Nissi an antecedent to his faith. I must admit that I was not aware that there was any bad blood between Szapszal and Firkovich. There's no doubt that Firkovich did engage in forgeries, however the latter never claimed turkic roots for the crimean and eastern european karaites. On the contrary, he called them Israelites, from the Ten Tribes who were exiled by Tiglath Pileser (he even visited and expressed solidarity with 'our brothers the Samaritans' at Nabulus..).It was Hakhan Szapszal who was the first Karaite leader to put a moratorium on the study of Hebrew. According to Prof. Mieckwitz, Szapzal did not understand any of the Karaim dialects and he spoke to the people in Russian. His ban on Hebrew seems to have been a further link in the chain of the so-called 'dejudaization' of the Karaites of the area.
What about Hakkham Solomon Kazaz and his book of Karaim catechisms (published in the 1800s) where he states clearly (following the Ten principles of karaite faith) that the national language of the Karaite is Hebrew (see his Tuv Taam written in Judeo-Tatar).
I am still unsure why your community venerates Aramaic but not Hebrew.
What is your attitude towards Hebrew in general?
Thanks.
Joe Davidi All perfectly correct except for one thing. You wrote:
"however the latter [Firkovich] never claimed turkic genes for the crimean and eastern european karaites."
But this is not true. Firkovich (who hailed from Lutzk) is famed for (very kindly) mixing the Khazar origins of the Karaylar into the history of the Ottoman Turkish Karaite Jews (mainly but not only in Crimea) who found themselves part of the Russian Empire as of 1783. I say kindly because thanks to this bit of innovation (which he later backed up with forgeries) he was able to save the Karaite Jews from Miso-Judaic laws of the Russian Empire. The Karaylar had always enjoyed privileged status as non-Jews and what Firkovich achieved in his new fusion "Karaims" (a fusion of Karaylar with Ha-Yehudim Ha-Qaraim from formerly Ottoman areas) was an route of exemption for Jews to escape the Tzadom's anti-Semitic laws. While good for the Jews this in the end turned out to be not so good for the Karaylar which is why Shapshal was so upset about what Firkovich did. Shapshal tried to revive the original religion of the Karaylar prior to its heavy 19th century Judaization. His "History of the Karaites" has been Xeroxed and is in the process of being prepared for publication within the next few years complete with annotated footnotes which will help to clear up the misunderstanding bouncing about the internet concerning what he was trying to achieve.
Firkovich and Shapshal did agree however on the lost "Ten Tribes" origin of the Sarmatians (the term they used for Kipchak people as a whole that is) who played a major part in the formation of the Khazar nation from whose collapse emerged the early Seljuks and it is through the latter via the Karakhanids (prior to the Islamization of both) that the Kipchak Central Asian Karaylar trace our Khazar religious ancestry being re-introduced to Europe via an exchange of Hostages between Daniel of Galicia and Batu Khan in the 1240s AD. The fact that the Seljuk-Khazar ancestors of the Karaylar had converted to believe in the Lectionary was mistaken by Firkovich to equate with the Jewish tradition of the Khazar conversion to Judaism, and thus through him a new "fusion" nation was born. So you see there are an awful lot of details on has to be familiar with concerning history of the Karaylar in order to find your way through the thickets.
Firkovich had regard for Nissi and especially latched onto Moses Bashyazi in whose Matheh Elohim under the title shalshelet ha-qabbalah ve-ha'takah ha-mishtalshelet, he discovered the same chain of tradition claimed by the "Johanine" Churches of the Karaylar tracing back to Judah ben Tabbai. However he more than likely inherited this from Karaylar (as his great grandfather Elijah had accepted Karaylar students), since the story can not be found anywhere else among Karaite Jews. Unlike Karaite Jews, Karaylar do read the New Testament, the Talmud and the Hadith, as historical secular texts complementary to the sacred scriptures of the "Karæan" (in our language קראן, translated as "Lectionary") from which our very name derives meaning readers of that holy writ. Bashyazi's emphasis on the Karaite chain of tradition deriving from Judah ben Tabbai (also mentioned in Judah Ha-Levi's Kuzari) and his simultaneous exclusion of the Sadducees and Boethusians from the picture were the whole basis for Firkovich's decision that the two traditions could be merged into one religion.
It should be made absolutely clear that the Bashyazi sevel ha-yerushah is entirely rejected, along with Anan Ben David's beliefs, by the Karaite Jews, and were only tolerated during the times of persecution under the Tzars and the Nazis. Since WW2 the Karaims who descended from Karaylar have generally returned to their pre-Firkovich faith which Shapshal reminded them of, while the Karaims who descended from Karaite Jews have returned to normative Karaite Judaism. The two have gone their separate ways once more. Still what Firkovich achieved in this brief cross-over was a remarkable success for the time and is worthy of study rather than derision.
Concerning Catechisms from the 1800s, beware of translations by Karaite Jews. They are usually edited or censored to blot out anything which seems too foreign. Judeo-Tatar is the Krymchak language so perhaps you should check your sources.
Hebrew is an important language, alongside Greek, and Arabic. But Aramaic is much more useful from purely pragmatic reasons as a short cut for seminarians since with Aramaic you can basically understand Hebrew and Arabic.
Karaite Church I will respond to the last section of your rejoinder first. Shelomo ben Mordechai Kazaz, considered to be the leading sage of Chufut Kale, wrote Tuv Taam in the Karaim language (the dialect spoken by the Karaim [not Krymchaks] of Crimea). It was published in 1835. This book was the first basic or elementary textbook on the Karaite faith for younger people. It can be classified as a book on basic Karaite 'catechisms'. Professor Henryk Mieczyk in a recent presentation on this particular tome shows how conscious Crimean Karaim were of their Hebrew/Israelite roots. For instance Kazaz teaches that the national language of the Karaim is Hebrew (unlike Szapszal who actually banned its study). See also Avraham Qanai's transcription of a Hebrew poem by Hakham Shabbetai ben Mordechai Tiro (1861-1939), a resident of Gozleve (Eupatoria), where the latter strongly expresses his Jewish identity and proclaims that 'kol yisrael achim', literally: all Jews (clearly including himself and his kinsmen) are brothers.. While most of Tiro's poems are in Karaim language, this particular one is written in Biblical Hebrew and it was composed in the late 30s, a mere several years after the passing of the Nuremberg Laws in Germany..
40,000 in Ashdod, Yisrael
Moshe taught Torah not Talmud
Sorry Dr.
Jewish Protestantism? Rejects tradition, Bible (Torah) alone::Protestant vs. Catholic/Orthodox? Rejects tradition, Bible alone.
Too disrespectful to the divine origin of the oral tradition and the lecture doesn’t even start touch on the history until about 40 minutes in.
Behold.... even an Orthodox Rabbanite scholar (and I've seen he's not the only one) seems to understand that the notion of divine origin for the "oral" torah doesn't compute and is historically incorrect. And when an Orthodox Jew knows this, they are bound to express this knowledge in some form that offends the Ortho's who never question the supposed divine origin.
"Karaite Jew" is correct. Most Rishonim and early Acronim considered the Jews, albeit not observant in the Rabinic tradition.
50,000 Karaite Jews worldwide
Karaites, while not perfect at least make the Written Torah the bottom line for any Biblical principal. There is way too much license taken in Orthodox Judaism to add and subtract from what Moses was given. Let's get back to true Scripture!
Orthodox don't subtract or add even 1 letter. Your comment shows alot of ignorance
How much are you getting paid to make such ridiculous comments?@@goldengun9970
Rabbinical Judaism claims Oral Tradition originated from Mt Sinai!
Islam started in Islamabad, they were some Şeekh who were worshipping Ereshkigal and Nargal... mohamdian weren't Eslami like them. But they actually were believing in the temple of mother inanna işha muşlimaneta temple. The perfect woman... I guess someone corrupted the reality
yes, karaites do go into the israeli army.....
Seriously...sefer Torah today has NO vowels...one must study years to learn tradition of pronouncing various words in Hebrew scroll. Masoretic text and Mishna,Talmud,Germara were all committed to memory until romans under Hadrain destroyed Temple.Read about Yavne and Rabbi Gamliel. Only after roman persecution and exile was Talmud written down. Torah scroll has no vowels...learning how to read a sefer Torah takes years since code of pronunciation of words in seferTorah are in Talmudic tradition....ask any Orthodox rabbi. Good that you doubt things you read or see on internet...you must be a Jew also...Shalom
Mitzvah Golem, you're a typical Orthodox liar. Every Jew with a satisfactory command of Hebrew which includes reading with vowels can learn within an hour how to properly pronounce all the words in an entire `Aliyah (segment read aloud by one who's called up to the Torah scroll) out of a weekly Parasha in the Torah.
I am responding randomly to one of your claims as I do not have sufficient time and patience to rebut all your baloney.
Am I the only one that sees karaites same as samaritans?
@Christopher Jefferson
If you proceed in learning or studying past your ignorance, there's hope you'll transcend it.
But even if you don't manage this feat, you could console yourself that it's much less bad than an Israeli Jew who conflates the 2 groups.
Today they are Ben Noachs....at least they do not worship JC as messianic etc. I no longer insult them. Shalom
V
W
Seems like Felipe wants to be a Jew. At least he reads Torah hopefully not a KJV.שלום
motorhead he has his own channel now as a Kairarite "rabbi"....
yes by the sword that's how islam spread in the M.E
Educated Professional??? Maybe verify what you exhort. Absurd and offensive your theory.
LOOK IT UP.....oy vey another Google grad.