The name "Rheinmetall" always amazes me. I mean, I understand that it's actually a name with a simple meaning, but to a foreign person it just sounds utterly bad-ass.
An older coworker of mine, grew up in Princess Anne County, Va (later absorbed by City of Virginia Beach). One of his friends had access to a MG-15 (possibly a vet bring-back, or re-WATed DeWAT) which they would sometimes take out, at night, to Sandbridge Beach. One night, they were shorting at some metal barrels that they had floated out beyond the surf line, when a deputy showed up. Remarkably, he told them that the SD had received a noise complaint... and that they needed to move farther down (south) on the beach, so the noise wouldn't bother folks. He apparently wasn't concerned that two teenagers, were out at night, with an 8mm machine gun, just the noise they were making with it!
this is done in Africa in the 60/70.. Mercenarys have done this quite successfully, not with a Cessna and not with a MG 17, but near of. The idea is, instead of having one Jetfighter for 5 Mio. € you can buy 20 Prop Planes and put some Mg`s and bombs on it.
Yeah, that's actually still being done today - one example of turboprop fighter planes being actively developed is the Super Tucano. They're used both for flight training, but also used for close-air support for some governments.
We need a video about machine gun synchronization on airplanes, I can take a guess how it works but it would be interesting to show how it was implemented.
For weapons mounted behind the prop, they were linked to the engine much like how the cam's in an engine time the pistons, they help alternate the fire for when the propeller isn't in front of the muzzle of the weapon... The SloMo Guys did a really good video on it some time ago, they can explain it better than I.
Partway through the first day and 64k views already. Nice to see how aircraft mounted guns are different. I know they used some sort of servo system, but it's a little hard to visualize. It didn't take long to realize that 30 and 32 cal mg's were not ideal for shooting down aircraft, even if you have 8 of them. Thus the Spitfire's move to 20mm cannons later, and US fighters all had 50 cal mg's of course, except for the P40, which was a pre-war design. And the P38 wisely added a 20mm to it's 50's for extra punch. Great video as always. Thank you
Small detail on Synchronisation. Firing wasn't blocked when blades were passing - this wasn't possible as several blades would pass between the firing pin dropping and the round reaching the disk of the propeller. This was particularly true in cares where the guns were mounted relatively far back, such as with the Wing Root guns on the FW 190, which were close enough to the fuselage that the rounds still passed through the propeller disk. What happened was that cams, hydraulic gear or electric gear would in some way fire the gun (from your description, in the MG17 by releasing the firing pin). This was positive command to fire rather than a 'don't fire' instruction (I know, subtle distinction) that was set up so each round would end up passing nicely between two blades. You did this rather than saying 'OK, blade out of the way, fire whenever you feel like it' so that any variations in gun lock time, round velocity, trajectory (possibly due to aircraft manoeuvring) and engine speed had the minimum chance of sending a round into a blade. Special attention was paid to ammunition consistency for the same reason. Setup was done by replacing the prop blades with a disk of wood and firing the guns. The holes in the disk told you where the rounds ended up and you could check this against the mounting points for the blades to ensure that the rounds were in the right place.
A further aid in synchronisation was the use of electrically primed ammunition instead of percussion primed ammo. For instance the MG151/20 could be electrically fired or percussion. Needless to say these guns used ammo that wasn't interchangable.
Great video! The number below the serial number is the 'Flugzeug-Ausruestungsgeraet' number. Next to some other more specific designations, these are numbers given to each individual equipment type used in Luftwaffe aircraft.
Bismarck! Good to see you! It is interesting to note the following markings on an mg17 in the British Imperial war museum: MG 17 Nr 027379 Fl 47500 2. Rheinmetall trademark 8. 1938 3. EPAD 17 FL. 47200 4. BAUART: MAIHAK. HERSTELLER: KUKA 5. Nr 0-24761 The Fl.# seems to indicate a drawing # or Luftwaffe specification. Note the charging handle has a different but similar series of number (47200). Likely similar to the drawing number system applied to American wartime rifles and MG's. Also of note is that this mg in the IWM's collections SN starts with a 0, giving credence to Ian's assumption that the first digit serves some other purpose than a sequential number (not a giant leap considering the Wehrmacht's penchant for such things).
Geez Ian. I know some of this was probably prior knowledge, but your ability to rattle off many different specific model numbers, dates, etc off the top of your head without pausing is remarkable. Single cut, too. Keep up the outstanding work!
@ Ian - The MG17 would start to fade out during 1942. The standard Luftwaffe fighters of 1942 still largely mounted a mix of MG17 and 20mm cannons. In 1943 heavier caliber MGs (13mm MG131) began to replace the MG17, and most Luftwaffe fighters carried a mix of cannons and MG until the end of the war.
These videos are wonderful! I'm an ex-HM Forces Armourer so it was my job to maintain and repair small arms weapon systems in the army. You're taking me back to what was a great job. I've subscribed, and I'm heading over to your SA80 videos now haha!
They were mounted in the nose of Bf-109G and K series, but not on the wings, or at least not IN the wings as these MG-17s or the American M2s were. Instead they were mounted on pods on dedicated anti-bomber aircraft.
Kawaiiser Wilhelm II Von Hohenzollern the mk-103 could actually work as a nose gun (eg the mk-103M in the do-335) issue was the base mk-103s recoil mechanism prevented that. the 103M was to fix that but it didnt work well and they limited them to 65rpm evidently to try and limit jamming
Matthys Fourie in general most of the mainland European countries had their guns mounted as close to the centerline as possible and favored heavier armaments while the British and Americans favored wing mounts and more guns.
Well done Ian another great video. Being something of a military aircraft nut this video is right up my street. There are a lot of quite unique guns designed or adapted for aircraft use that seem to get overlooked in many books or histories of weaponry in favour of army, navy, or civilian stuff.
Looks like you've found a new sub-genre of guns to tap into, Ian. I look forward to more aircraft guns. Im sure this video and any in the same vein will get plenty of views.
The nice thing about aircraft machine gun is: No concerns about dirt. The moment such a gun went into a mud test, the user of the gun had far worse problems I assume.
The flexible mount "variant" of this (the MG15) saw combat in ground MG roles and was reported as a reliable and very dependable weapon. Then again it's true that aircraft weaponry has much less concerns about dirt than guns for ground tasks, it's just that this machinegun seems to have been very good at it anyway.
Ian, I can definitely assure you that the mount the owner has added is indeed to interface with an MG34/MG42/MG3 Tripod, or as we in the army call it: Erdziellafette(Ground targeting mount)
The germans had and used a remote control air to surface missile that they used against ships. They also had remote controlled mines that looked like small WW1 british tanks that they used against our landing forces on beaches. While they tended to work surprisingly well for the time I don't think they made any real difference to the war.
just about all modern day technology with the exception of digital computers and the microchip were invented in the 30's and 40's. Hybrid Gas/Diesel electric engines were first widely used on submarines and some german tanks before anyone really thought to put them in a car.
Couple little notes, Ian. As you say the MG17 (and MG15, and even the 81), by late WW2 was outdated and obsolete as fighter weaponry. Many of those were luftwaffe surplus after 1943, and many of those were pulled out of the warehouses and sent to troops in the desperate days before the VE day. Maybe that tripod modification was actually done to make the weapon usable from a MG34 tripod by german troops during the last days of the war (unless of course you have documentation that proves it was a private modification done on the gun by the owner, which is also a perfectly possible scenario). also, the MG17 IIRC, could fire from a closed bolt so they worked better when syncronized- something deemed extremely important for cowling-mounted machineguns, which were standard in every german WWII fighter. It seems that open bolts and syncronization gear don't match up very well (the concept works - but the loss of rate of fire is much higher on an open bolt weapon than in a closed bolt one). Hope you get a chance to take a look at more aircraft weapons. Extremely cool stuff there. Specially if you look at the MG151 and MG131s - those were the first electrically primed guns used on any meaningful numbers, and I'm sure you'll have a great time looking into them :).
Who could dislike this? Anyway, as for the cannon development, the 20mm ultimately became very common early on, and the 13mm and 30mm were later on. There was a high velocity and low velocity version of the 30mm. 15mm were rare and somewhat useless compared to a 20mm. The 30mm was used as the standard and only weapon in things such as the Me-262 and Me-163 Komet, but yes, the tactic of 'boom and zoom' was limited in the window of opportunity. The best example of this is the Me-262 U4 kit, which gave it a single 50mm cannon with a rotary magazine. While it could effortlessly obliterate a B17 with a single hit from far beyond the B17's range and ability to defend itself, it would require the pilot to line up his shot carefully, and this would have been hard as the B17s escort fighters would be very aware of the jet. This also was the premise of the 163 Komet, which was a rocket intended to quickly reach the B17s, fire its 30mm, and then glide to a landing, which would also make it incredibly vulnerable to the bombers escort should they give chase. Id say the most bizarre was the Natter, a vertical takeoff rocket, which in turn launches rockets, and then breaks apart mid-air, with each component, and pilot having a seperate parachute.
The last number on the receiver is a Luftwaffe FL number. A lot of equipment, and instruments onboard the planes were categorized by this system. The number is not unique to just this mg17, if I'm not mistaken every mg17 has this same FL number. I collect Luftwaffe aircraft relics, and many of the parts in my collection have the same type of FL number on them.
"...without needing a 75 year old plane as an accessory." Aww, but that's what makes the gun interesting! Also, I just want to point out that the mg was not replaced by the autocannon in German fighter armament. They were used in conjunction. The 8 mm mg and 15 or 20 mm cannon was the initial combo, and this combo was replaced by 13 mm mg and 20 or 30 mm cannon. Some German aircraft used even bigger cannons (37, 50 or even 75 mm) to hunt bombers and tanks.
Fascinating. You need to hit the USAF museum in Dayton, Ohio. They are generally very supportive of researchers and you could knock out some great videos there. And - it's one of the world's finest military museums.
You should try to get your hands on some of the 20mm or 30mm cannons used on ww2 aircraft. Hispano cannons etc, those would be very interesting to look at
08:05 The first two digits of the serial number might be the year of fabrication ('41). The FL number is a Luftwaffe item number, basiclly a parts number for aircraft components. 13:30 Yes, the famous Minengeschoß rounds, 85 grams of explosives packed in a thin walled 30mm shell. Or 18 grams for the 20mm shells.
There are a few points I'd like to make in response to the video and the other comments, a good video of an excellent opportunity though, at one time these did fall out of the sky but I bet they're scarce now. The Bf 109 and probably the Fw 190 had the nose guns staggered so that they could use the full fuselage width for belt tanks, a big feeder and a smaller one for the empty belt. These were canvas-and-clip belts, not like the disintegrating link belts used by the RAF. As the Bf 109 had been designed without wing armament, when it became necessary in response to the RAF's 8-gun fighters, they put in a MG17 with a continuous belt, that went round a roller at the wing root, all the way to another roller in the wingtip and back to the gun. Surprisingly it seems to have worked. When they mounted the Oerlikon FF in the wing they had to have bulges for the magazines, and the FF was not a good aircraft gun, too slow, too low muzzle velocity, meaning that there was one harmonization point in space. German pilots liked nose guns (like the Soviets) because you did not have a harmonization point, you could guess bullet drop but there were no more worries. The US P-38 initially had an appalling armament mix, 2 30-cal, 2 50-cal and a really slow (and unreliable) 37 mm gun. When they got their wits about them they put in 4 50-cal and a 20 mm cannon (HS 404 copy) that had a similar trajectory to the 50-cal. The wooden mock-up of the Hurricane had 4 Vickers E guns, 2 sync. and 2 in one wing (landing light in the other). Then they realized that in future the contact time would be much shorter than with biplanes, so they moved the guns to the wings, designed for 8 and tried to speed up the Vickers. It wouldn't work, so they looked for a replacement, eventually picking the Browning 1919 which they modified so much it was almost a new gun, but it fired 1200 rpm at a ridiculously low stoppage rate, using rimmed ammo! The critical aspect was lining up the rounds in the belts, it had to be perfect. Feed inversion was done turning a small piece in the centre of the feed operating tracks and selecting the right track. Soon they realized that the .303 round was not powerful enough and they started looking at the HS 404, but as a stopgap measure they adopted the DeWilde explosive bullet, which made a significant difference, but that's a story all by itself. The Japanese copied the .303 as the 7.7 (rimmed, semi-rimmed and rimless) and also made an explosive PETN filled bullet
A few things... The Fw190 nose guns were not staggered, and I believe only the MG17 mounts on Bf109's were. The 13mm mounts on the Bf109G-6 for example were not staggered either. These German guns did NOT use canvas belts whatsoever, in fact they did use metal disintegrating belts. Also, the MG FF had a lot of potential, It was used throughout the war after all. It was a lightweight gun, and there have been experiments with belt fed MG FF's, which was cancelled in favour of the MG151/20. With P-38 you mean P-39, right? Because the Lighting never had a 37mm gun. Though it is true the HS404 fired a faster shell, they were absolutely huge and heavy.
To be fair, the LW were using 20mm cannon pretty much at the start of the war. The 109 E already carried 20mm Oerlikon type guns ("MG FF" and "FF/M") during the Battle of France and certainly in the Battle of Britain. One of the reasons for this early adoption of cannon is probably the fact that, unlike the Spit and Hurri for example, the Bf 109 didn't have enough space available to mount a gazillion rifle-caliber machine guns. So the easiest way to give the 109 more punch was to go to larger guns, firing explosive shells.
I.M.T. have a video on the MG-131, but it/they don't the level of of background info the same as Ian & Karl... The field strip & rebuild of a '131' could likely be done at least as fast as a competent AR user, barring its size being bigger and longer...
How in the heck is he going to get his hands on a 30mm gun that was specifically designed to be put on an aircraft? Seriously, how, because I have been looking for a while, and I have yet to find a method, so this would be quite nice to know.
Just like most military, the Nazi Luftwaffe went into WW2 with tactics borrowed from the 1st World War. Rifle caliber machine guns being a good example along with horse drawn artillery. As Ian refers to gun and caliber development during the war, aircraft became more rugged with armor, speed and defensive firepower. USA quickly settled on the 50 BMG caliber round and also autocannon in aircraft such as the Bell Aircobra, greatly exported to the Soviet forces (along with Studebaker trucks)! Good video information.
It's always interesting to me on the different approach we in the U.S. had to aircraft armament, going with 6-8 .50 caliber guns or multiple .50 turrets instead of the 20 or 30mm cannon's that almost every other nation went with. In a way it makes sense because I remember reading something like
They even tried a 75 mm, I think it was on the Ta 187, to use against tanks on the eastern front. Very interesting subject btw, and it seems to me that you already know quit a lot... Cheers Ian! Ian.
How did synchronization system interact with the cycling of the bolt? I imagine that the cycle just stopped until the propeller blade got out of the way, then the pin dropped, the gun fired and the cycle carried on. Is that how it worked?
Ian, please review their 15mm MG151 and the special armor piercing Cermet core ammunition it used as well as the 20mm version, and the two 30mm's the high velocity MK103 and low velocity MK108 please
Not to mention the special 20mm and above Meinengeshoß ammunition, which packed almost twice as much if not more, explosive filler into the same caliber ammo as the Allies had, which the French and British stole after the war to develop the ammo for the 30mm ADEN cannon
Are you sure the synchronizer wouldn't mount in the oval hole by your thumb at 12:15? It looks like there's a lever in that hole when the gun is in battery that could be for an interrupter.
Actually, the Official German Bookkeeping Designation was 8-109. 8- for Aircraft, 109 for a particular design from a type number range assigned to designs by Willi Messerchmitt. But - yes, the Germans used Bf- and Me- in their technical documentation and other correspondence, but with no real consistency.
Any chance you will be doing a post auction video for RIA's September auction? Seems like there are a few transferrable guns, and I know that I for one, am interested in seeing what these guns will fetch for price.
OMG thank you Ian I've been wondering for awhile now if rhienmetall was German or swiss cause I heard guns from that company coming from both countries so I did know but thanks for clearing that up
Since you would have to swap that one part to make it a port or starboard gun, I wonder if they were issued with both. Also wonder if they would be partnered and serialized with the one on the other side.
I'd like that too, and they did sooner (and in much larger quantities) use the MG-151 in 15mm and 20mm calibers as a replacement for the MG-17 [and MG FF, an Oerlikon derivative].
+smokeydops the MG151/15 and MG151/20 are not replacements but different guns altogether. They are despite the MG designation cannons by any definition. The MG17 was used alongside the MG151 on the Bf 109 and Fw 190. What replaced the MG17 on fighters was the 13mm MG131.
Hi, guys. Late in the war a bunch of aircraft machine guns were modified for ground use. Is it possible this is one of those and that the "home made" look of the conversion is due to the last ditch quality of late war German weapons? It might also explain the unidentified marking. Cheers!
Since this is about aircraft guns: I've never seen a plane shooting outside of movies and games, so this is something I don't know: How do you clear a malfunction in an aircraft gun (or any that is fixed and fired remotely, I guess)? The pilot has probably the option to manually reload the guns, and the pneumatic charging is strong enough that it imitates let's say a clearance with the help of gravity (or whatever operates the charging handle, today probably just electronics?), is that it?
If cycling the charging handle (using a pneumatic system, generally) doesn't work, you simply have a non functioning gun until you can land and access it from the outside.
While mechanical stoppages or ammunition issues could occur, most aircraft gun failures were failures to feed. Consider that not only does the belt have to wend it's way through some tight confines and sharp corners, it has to do it under varying G loads and a wide range of environmental conditions. (Ian - if you're up - from what you wer describing, the Germans weren't using disintegrating link belts. Is that indeed the case? If so, it makes the ammo handling issues more complicated.) It's still not a trivial issue - the Colt Mk12 20mm guns used on the F-8 Crusader supersonic fighter (Last of the Gunfighters? Not quite - only 2 guns-only kills in Vietnam) were notorious for having their feeds jam while maneuvering.
Given the volume of fire would the fired casings present a balance problem for the airplane when it made maneuvers? Or would the casings be light enough it wouldn't be a problem?
Not really - Airplanes are stable an controllable through a range of center of gravity (Balance point) locations. For fuselage mounted guns, the weight of the machine gun ammunition isn't very high, and if there's a heavy gun 20mm-37mm cannon, for example) there isn't that much ammunition aboard. The ammunition is also stored just forward of the cockpit, so it's not far from the center of gravity. You get more effects by burning the fuel on board.
Pretty much what Peter Stickney said. German Wikipedia on the Bf 109 gives 500 rounds (or about 14kg) per MG 17 for most of the variants , 60 to a couple of hundred rounds for the heavier guns. All mounted quite close to where you want the center of gravity (CoG) to be (roughly speaking, where the wings are). Depending on the Version the Bf 109 carried 200 to 300kg of fuel behind the pilot, which might well be futher from the CoG than the ammunition. In some aircraft you can actually take off with the CoG in the allowed range and get it outside of limits just by burning fuel (and not planning properly).
Another factor leading to the use of the barrels by Volkstrum, by the end of the war Nazi Germany had very few pilots or planes left and much of their AF was converted to foot soldiers, so a cache of AF machine guns of an obsolete type was a waste of warehouse storage space. :)
Are you going to do a shooting segment on this gun 😉? Our local Commemorative Air Force chapter has a top turret from a Martin bomber with 2 M2s mounted. The turret is mounted on a trailer and is operational. I've been trying to talk them into getting the guns working and selling tickets to shoot it. I sat in it and your ears are about 3 inches in between two 50 BMG running at 600 rounds per minute. No wonder the WWII guys can't hear anything.
Another cool video. On a side note, Forgotten Weapons should check out the Fuller Gun Collection at the Chickamauga National Military Park, if they haven't already.
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The name "Rheinmetall" always amazes me. I mean, I understand that it's actually a name with a simple meaning, but to a foreign person it just sounds utterly bad-ass.
I’ve always felt the same. The German language as a whole can sound hardcore under the right circumstances
Another - Stahlhelm.
Mauser also badass
All sounds like heavy metal bands
An older coworker of mine, grew up in Princess Anne County, Va (later absorbed by City of Virginia Beach). One of his friends had access to a MG-15 (possibly a vet bring-back, or re-WATed DeWAT) which they would sometimes take out, at night, to Sandbridge Beach. One night, they were shorting at some metal barrels that they had floated out beyond the surf line, when a deputy showed up. Remarkably, he told them that the SD had received a noise complaint... and that they needed to move farther down (south) on the beach, so the noise wouldn't bother folks. He apparently wasn't concerned that two teenagers, were out at night, with an 8mm machine gun, just the noise they were making with it!
Nice concealed carry gun!!!
Or, if you're amputee you can get it mounted as the most badass peg leg ever...
this is done in Africa in the 60/70.. Mercenarys have done this quite successfully, not with a Cessna and not with a MG 17, but near of.
The idea is, instead of having one Jetfighter for 5 Mio. € you can buy 20 Prop Planes and put some Mg`s and bombs on it.
LOL too funny
Yeah, that's actually still being done today - one example of turboprop fighter planes being actively developed is the Super Tucano. They're used both for flight training, but also used for close-air support for some governments.
"You too can legally own and use this WW2 aircraft machine gun!" It never ceases to amaze me what you guys are allowed to own over there in the US :P
🇺🇸
It takes one hell of a pile of paperwork and headaches to own an mg but you can do it.
I envy them...damn EU...
The second amendment isn't about hunting
KarlEller indeed it is quite nice. Join us we have plenty of freedom to share. :D
We need a video about machine gun synchronization on airplanes, I can take a guess how it works but it would be interesting to show how it was implemented.
For weapons mounted behind the prop, they were linked to the engine much like how the cam's in an engine time the pistons, they help alternate the fire for when the propeller isn't in front of the muzzle of the weapon... The SloMo Guys did a really good video on it some time ago, they can explain it better than I.
RUclips has several videos about your suggested topic
I would really like to see more WW2 aircraft machine guns, apart from the M2 and the 303 most of them aren't well known.
MrMaffy96
Like the Italian 20mm or the 12.7 ones, the Japanese and Soviet guns aren't that talked about either
I bet it would be a great fokking video
Partway through the first day and 64k views already. Nice to see how aircraft mounted guns are different. I know they used some sort of servo system, but it's a little hard to visualize. It didn't take long to realize that 30 and 32 cal mg's were not ideal for shooting down aircraft, even if you have 8 of them. Thus the Spitfire's move to 20mm cannons later, and US fighters all had 50 cal mg's of course, except for the P40, which was a pre-war design. And the P38 wisely added a 20mm to it's 50's for extra punch. Great video as always. Thank you
Small detail on Synchronisation. Firing wasn't blocked when blades were passing - this wasn't possible as several blades would pass between the firing pin dropping and the round reaching the disk of the propeller. This was particularly true in cares where the guns were mounted relatively far back, such as with the Wing Root guns on the FW 190, which were close enough to the fuselage that the rounds still passed through the propeller disk.
What happened was that cams, hydraulic gear or electric gear would in some way fire the gun (from your description, in the MG17 by releasing the firing pin). This was positive command to fire rather than a 'don't fire' instruction (I know, subtle distinction) that was set up so each round would end up passing nicely between two blades. You did this rather than saying 'OK, blade out of the way, fire whenever you feel like it' so that any variations in gun lock time, round velocity, trajectory (possibly due to aircraft manoeuvring) and engine speed had the minimum chance of sending a round into a blade. Special attention was paid to ammunition consistency for the same reason.
Setup was done by replacing the prop blades with a disk of wood and firing the guns. The holes in the disk told you where the rounds ended up and you could check this against the mounting points for the blades to ensure that the rounds were in the right place.
A further aid in synchronisation was the use of electrically primed ammunition instead of percussion primed ammo. For instance the MG151/20 could be electrically fired or percussion. Needless to say these guns used ammo that wasn't interchangable.
Great video! The number below the serial number is the 'Flugzeug-Ausruestungsgeraet' number. Next to some other more specific designations, these are numbers given to each individual equipment type used in Luftwaffe aircraft.
Bismarck! Good to see you! It is interesting to note the following markings on an mg17 in the British Imperial war museum:
MG 17 Nr 027379 Fl 47500 2. Rheinmetall trademark 8. 1938 3. EPAD 17 FL. 47200 4. BAUART: MAIHAK. HERSTELLER: KUKA 5. Nr 0-24761
The Fl.# seems to indicate a drawing # or Luftwaffe specification. Note the charging handle has a different but similar series of number (47200). Likely similar to the drawing number system applied to American wartime rifles and MG's. Also of note is that this mg in the IWM's collections SN starts with a 0, giving credence to Ian's assumption that the first digit serves some other purpose than a sequential number (not a giant leap considering the Wehrmacht's penchant for such things).
Hey Bismarck! Looking out for your next Il-2 video!
This is the only channel out of hundreds that I watch every upload. Praise gun Jesus!
Nothing quite like waking up, having yourself a hot cup of Joe and a stack of pancakes while being serenaded by the sweet sermons of ol' Gun Jesus.
"Let me tell you the parable of the mustard -seed- gas"
It's not rambling when you fatten your presentation with historical and engineering detail. Your productions are data dense and always enjoyable.
Geez Ian. I know some of this was probably prior knowledge, but your ability to rattle off many different specific model numbers, dates, etc off the top of your head without pausing is remarkable. Single cut, too. Keep up the outstanding work!
@ Ian - The MG17 would start to fade out during 1942. The standard Luftwaffe fighters of 1942 still largely mounted a mix of MG17 and 20mm cannons. In 1943 heavier caliber MGs (13mm MG131) began to replace the MG17, and most Luftwaffe fighters carried a mix of cannons and MG until the end of the war.
"Lets stop rambling so much" No way Ian, myself and lots of people could listen to you talking about guns all day
I come here for the weapon, I stay for the history lesson ;-)
By far my favorite channel!
These videos are wonderful! I'm an ex-HM Forces Armourer so it was my job to maintain and repair small arms weapon systems in the army. You're taking me back to what was a great job. I've subscribed, and I'm heading over to your SA80 videos now haha!
Glad to see aircraft guns getting some time on the site, an unusual gun to enjoy seeing, thanks.
Mk108 was the low velocity and the Mk103 was the high velocity 30mm autocannons.
Yeah, but the MK 108 was small enough to mount in the engine or wings of single engine fighters.
They were mounted in the nose of Bf-109G and K series, but not on the wings, or at least not IN the wings as these MG-17s or the American M2s were. Instead they were mounted on pods on dedicated anti-bomber aircraft.
Kawaiiser Wilhelm II Von Hohenzollern the mk-103 could actually work as a nose gun (eg the mk-103M in the do-335) issue was the base mk-103s recoil mechanism prevented that. the 103M was to fix that but it didnt work well and they limited them to 65rpm evidently to try and limit jamming
Matthys Fourie in general most of the mainland European countries had their guns mounted as close to the centerline as possible and favored heavier armaments while the British and Americans favored wing mounts and more guns.
They were sometimes in the FW 190. Not that having four 20mm guns wasn´t enough...
Well done Ian another great video. Being something of a military aircraft nut this video is right up my street. There are a lot of quite unique guns designed or adapted for aircraft use that seem to get overlooked in many books or histories of weaponry in favour of army, navy, or civilian stuff.
Best channel ever. Well done Ian!
It's belt-fed Sunday between Forgotten Weapons and the Military Arms Channel 👍🏻
I found a Beltfeeder for one of these on a Nightfighter airfield. (BF110) Its nice to see how it would have worked on the gun. awesome video!
Looks like you've found a new sub-genre of guns to tap into, Ian. I look forward to more aircraft guns.
Im sure this video and any in the same vein will get plenty of views.
The nice thing about aircraft machine gun is: No concerns about dirt. The moment such a gun went into a mud test, the user of the gun had far worse problems I assume.
The flexible mount "variant" of this (the MG15) saw combat in ground MG roles and was reported as a reliable and very dependable weapon. Then again it's true that aircraft weaponry has much less concerns about dirt than guns for ground tasks, it's just that this machinegun seems to have been very good at it anyway.
I thoroughly enjoyed the rambling.
Ian, I can definitely assure you that the mount the owner has added is indeed to interface with an MG34/MG42/MG3 Tripod, or as we in the army call it: Erdziellafette(Ground targeting mount)
How there was electronic firing guns in ww2 aircraft always amazed me.
The germans had and used a remote control air to surface missile that they used against ships. They also had remote controlled mines that looked like small WW1 british tanks that they used against our landing forces on beaches. While they tended to work surprisingly well for the time I don't think they made any real difference to the war.
Anzio
Italy Campaign
If i remember
+Chris Jones ; German remote guided bombs sank the Italian Battleship Roma.
just about all modern day technology with the exception of digital computers and the microchip were invented in the 30's and 40's. Hybrid Gas/Diesel electric engines were first widely used on submarines and some german tanks before anyone really thought to put them in a car.
Rhein Metal is actually still around. They currently hold several contracts with the US Military
Yes, they were big in armored vehicle production, and back in the day, even had a tank and tank destroyer or two to their name.
+Jesse Sisolack ; Back in the day ? The new Puma AFV is from Rheinmetall.
The gun of the M1 Abrams is a Rheinmetall gun for instance.
Thanks Ian. Great video as ever and never less than fascinating.
Couple little notes, Ian.
As you say the MG17 (and MG15, and even the 81), by late WW2 was outdated and obsolete as fighter weaponry. Many of those were luftwaffe surplus after 1943, and many of those were pulled out of the warehouses and sent to troops in the desperate days before the VE day. Maybe that tripod modification was actually done to make the weapon usable from a MG34 tripod by german troops during the last days of the war (unless of course you have documentation that proves it was a private modification done on the gun by the owner, which is also a perfectly possible scenario).
also, the MG17 IIRC, could fire from a closed bolt so they worked better when syncronized- something deemed extremely important for cowling-mounted machineguns, which were standard in every german WWII fighter. It seems that open bolts and syncronization gear don't match up very well (the concept works - but the loss of rate of fire is much higher on an open bolt weapon than in a closed bolt one).
Hope you get a chance to take a look at more aircraft weapons. Extremely cool stuff there. Specially if you look at the MG151 and MG131s - those were the first electrically primed guns used on any meaningful numbers, and I'm sure you'll have a great time looking into them :).
I love how every day I finish brushing my teeth and I get Ian's video notification at the exact same moment
Lewis Wright Yeah sorry I'm European lol
You brush your teeth in the morning?
Every civilised human does?
Your not rambling, this is a fascinating channel Ian
Who could dislike this? Anyway, as for the cannon development, the 20mm ultimately became very common early on, and the 13mm and 30mm were later on. There was a high velocity and low velocity version of the 30mm. 15mm were rare and somewhat useless compared to a 20mm. The 30mm was used as the standard and only weapon in things such as the Me-262 and Me-163 Komet, but yes, the tactic of 'boom and zoom' was limited in the window of opportunity. The best example of this is the Me-262 U4 kit, which gave it a single 50mm cannon with a rotary magazine. While it could effortlessly obliterate a B17 with a single hit from far beyond the B17's range and ability to defend itself, it would require the pilot to line up his shot carefully, and this would have been hard as the B17s escort fighters would be very aware of the jet. This also was the premise of the 163 Komet, which was a rocket intended to quickly reach the B17s, fire its 30mm, and then glide to a landing, which would also make it incredibly vulnerable to the bombers escort should they give chase. Id say the most bizarre was the Natter, a vertical takeoff rocket, which in turn launches rockets, and then breaks apart mid-air, with each component, and pilot having a seperate parachute.
Im also not certain the 262 U4 kit was used. I know of at least 2 that exist, and one was captured by the US.
Ian you rock, thank you for what you are doing. When I start working in january I will join you as a patreon
The last number on the receiver is a Luftwaffe FL number. A lot of equipment, and instruments onboard the planes were categorized by this system. The number is not unique to just this mg17, if I'm not mistaken every mg17 has this same FL number. I collect Luftwaffe aircraft relics, and many of the parts in my collection have the same type of FL number on them.
It's a beautiful looking aircraft gun so slender and minimalist.
6:30 Noooo! Please, ramble some more, the history and associated info make a large part of the appeal of these videos.
"...without needing a 75 year old plane as an accessory." Aww, but that's what makes the gun interesting! Also, I just want to point out that the mg was not replaced by the autocannon in German fighter armament. They were used in conjunction. The 8 mm mg and 15 or 20 mm cannon was the initial combo, and this combo was replaced by 13 mm mg and 20 or 30 mm cannon. Some German aircraft used even bigger cannons (37, 50 or even 75 mm) to hunt bombers and tanks.
Fascinating. You need to hit the USAF museum in Dayton, Ohio. They are generally very supportive of researchers and you could knock out some great videos there. And - it's one of the world's finest military museums.
You should try to get your hands on some of the 20mm or 30mm cannons used on ww2 aircraft. Hispano cannons etc, those would be very interesting to look at
Could you find some old pump action/semi auto shotguns to make videos of? Even the british trench gun would be fine
08:05 The first two digits of the serial number might be the year of fabrication ('41). The FL number is a Luftwaffe item number, basiclly a parts number for aircraft components.
13:30 Yes, the famous Minengeschoß rounds, 85 grams of explosives packed in a thin walled 30mm shell. Or 18 grams for the 20mm shells.
There are a few points I'd like to make in response to the video and the other comments, a good video of an excellent opportunity though, at one time these did fall out of the sky but I bet they're scarce now. The Bf 109 and probably the Fw 190 had the nose guns staggered so that they could use the full fuselage width for belt tanks, a big feeder and a smaller one for the empty belt. These were canvas-and-clip belts, not like the disintegrating link belts used by the RAF. As the Bf 109 had been designed without wing armament, when it became necessary in response to the RAF's 8-gun fighters, they put in a MG17 with a continuous belt, that went round a roller at the wing root, all the way to another roller in the wingtip and back to the gun. Surprisingly it seems to have worked. When they mounted the Oerlikon FF in the wing they had to have bulges for the magazines, and the FF was not a good aircraft gun, too slow, too low muzzle velocity, meaning that there was one harmonization point in space. German pilots liked nose guns (like the Soviets) because you did not have a harmonization point, you could guess bullet drop but there were no more worries. The US P-38 initially had an appalling armament mix, 2 30-cal, 2 50-cal and a really slow (and unreliable) 37 mm gun. When they got their wits about them they put in 4 50-cal and a 20 mm cannon (HS 404 copy) that had a similar trajectory to the 50-cal. The wooden mock-up of the Hurricane had 4 Vickers E guns, 2 sync. and 2 in one wing (landing light in the other). Then they realized that in future the contact time would be much shorter than with biplanes, so they moved the guns to the wings, designed for 8 and tried to speed up the Vickers. It wouldn't work, so they looked for a replacement, eventually picking the Browning 1919 which they modified so much it was almost a new gun, but it fired 1200 rpm at a ridiculously low stoppage rate, using rimmed ammo! The critical aspect was lining up the rounds in the belts, it had to be perfect. Feed inversion was done turning a small piece in the centre of the feed operating tracks and selecting the right track. Soon they realized that the .303 round was not powerful enough and they started looking at the HS 404, but as a stopgap measure they adopted the DeWilde explosive bullet, which made a significant difference, but that's a story all by itself. The Japanese copied the .303 as the 7.7 (rimmed, semi-rimmed and rimless) and also made an explosive PETN filled bullet
A few things...
The Fw190 nose guns were not staggered, and I believe only the MG17 mounts on Bf109's were. The 13mm mounts on the Bf109G-6 for example were not staggered either.
These German guns did NOT use canvas belts whatsoever, in fact they did use metal disintegrating belts.
Also, the MG FF had a lot of potential, It was used throughout the war after all. It was a lightweight gun, and there have been experiments with belt fed MG FF's, which was cancelled in favour of the MG151/20.
With P-38 you mean P-39, right? Because the Lighting never had a 37mm gun.
Though it is true the HS404 fired a faster shell, they were absolutely huge and heavy.
To be fair, the LW were using 20mm cannon pretty much at the start of the war. The 109 E already carried 20mm Oerlikon type guns ("MG FF" and "FF/M") during the Battle of France and certainly in the Battle of Britain. One of the reasons for this early adoption of cannon is probably the fact that, unlike the Spit and Hurri for example, the Bf 109 didn't have enough space available to mount a gazillion rifle-caliber machine guns. So the easiest way to give the 109 more punch was to go to larger guns, firing explosive shells.
seems like a pretty well built machine, on a side note I'd love to see another video on those lancaster Howdah pistols
0 dislikes so far. Maybe theyre sleeping.
nice vids Gun Jesus.
Hopefully this is the beginning of a series on German aviation weaponry…
MG151s, MG151/20, MG105 and MG108. That would be interesting.
Are there any mg 151 or mk 103/108 cannons to take a look at or is there no way you could get your hands on one of those?
Great video by the way
I.M.T. have a video on the MG-131, but it/they don't the level of of background info the same as Ian & Karl...
The field strip & rebuild of a '131' could likely be done at least as fast as a competent AR user, barring its size being bigger and longer...
How in the heck is he going to get his hands on a 30mm gun that was specifically designed to be put on an aircraft? Seriously, how, because I have been looking for a while, and I have yet to find a method, so this would be quite nice to know.
The mechanical workings of this gun are really interesting.
My favorite belt-fed of theirs is the MG 81.
Just like most military, the Nazi Luftwaffe went into WW2 with tactics borrowed from the 1st World War. Rifle caliber machine guns being a good example along with horse drawn artillery. As Ian refers to gun and caliber development during the war, aircraft became more rugged with armor, speed and defensive firepower. USA quickly settled on the 50 BMG caliber round and also autocannon in aircraft such as the Bell Aircobra, greatly exported to the Soviet forces (along with Studebaker trucks)!
Good video information.
Don't worry, we love the rambling!
great lesson in history..........many thanks
It's always interesting to me on the different approach we in the U.S. had to aircraft armament, going with 6-8 .50 caliber guns or multiple .50 turrets instead of the 20 or 30mm cannon's that almost every other nation went with. In a way it makes sense because I remember reading something like
Another beautifully and ellaborately designed and built weapon from the 1930's.. Love this stuff
If only there was an MG 131 specimen!! That would be epic
i ve yet to regret the dollar a month im giving to this show
They even tried a 75 mm, I think it was on the Ta 187, to use against tanks on the eastern front.
Very interesting subject btw, and it seems to me that you already know quit a lot...
Cheers Ian!
Ian.
Excellent video, most friendly thanks!
How did synchronization system interact with the cycling of the bolt? I imagine that the cycle just stopped until the propeller blade got out of the way, then the pin dropped, the gun fired and the cycle carried on. Is that how it worked?
Great video as always gun jesus, a really relaxing video to sit back and watch after work every night. Thanks for the great entertainment!!
Is it possible for you to talk about the Ribeyrolles 1918?
Being as there (as far as i know) no accessable models much less any that were put into service. The chances to find one are very slim.
Armament used on my favorite WWII aircraft. I hope that one day a BK 3.7 will find its way to the auction house.
Ian, please review their 15mm MG151 and the special armor piercing Cermet core ammunition it used as well as the 20mm version, and the two 30mm's the high velocity MK103 and low velocity MK108 please
Not to mention the special 20mm and above Meinengeshoß ammunition, which packed almost twice as much if not more, explosive filler into the same caliber ammo as the Allies had, which the French and British stole after the war to develop the ammo for the 30mm ADEN cannon
Are you sure the synchronizer wouldn't mount in the oval hole by your thumb at 12:15? It looks like there's a lever in that hole when the gun is in battery that could be for an interrupter.
Thanks for the vid sir.
If you could ever get a look at an MG-81Z, the twin mount of the MG-81, that would be amazing, though aircraft weapons in general are fascinating.
I am just guessing, but the last number could be the serial number of the plane (Flugzeug) this was mounted in.
Im so happy you didn't call it a Me-109
Halinspark early modal 109e were called Bf when the G modal came out company changed name too Me
Actually, the Official German Bookkeeping Designation was 8-109.
8- for Aircraft, 109 for a particular design from a type number range assigned to designs by Willi Messerchmitt.
But - yes, the Germans used Bf- and Me- in their technical documentation and other correspondence, but with no real consistency.
I Believe the FL number is the Luftwaffe reference part number. I have seen this type of references on GAF aircraft instruments
Any chance you will be doing a post auction video for RIA's September auction? Seems like there are a few transferrable guns, and I know that I for one, am interested in seeing what these guns will fetch for price.
Hopefully we will see some vids on cannon....both WW2 and modern. Interesting calibres, projectiles and feeds. MK108 for example...
OMG thank you Ian I've been wondering for awhile now if rhienmetall was German or swiss cause I heard guns from that company coming from both countries so I did know but thanks for clearing that up
Since you would have to swap that one part to make it a port or starboard gun, I wonder if they were issued with both. Also wonder if they would be partnered and serialized with the one on the other side.
So that's the gun that failed to deal any damage to a Hawker Fury sitting on my tail the other day in War Thunder..
Hey Ian, can you make a video about the MG-131, the 13mm machine gun that replaced the MG-17?
I'd like that too, and they did sooner (and in much larger quantities) use the MG-151 in 15mm and 20mm calibers as a replacement for the MG-17 [and MG FF, an Oerlikon derivative].
+smokeydops the MG151/15 and MG151/20 are not replacements but different guns altogether. They are despite the MG designation cannons by any definition. The MG17 was used alongside the MG151 on the Bf 109 and Fw 190. What replaced the MG17 on fighters was the 13mm MG131.
Just sitting over here wishing and waiting for a Solothurn S-18 series of videos...
Very informative
Also, wasn't the 88mm flak cannon developed in sweden to get around the treaty?
Hi, guys.
Late in the war a bunch of aircraft machine guns were modified for ground use. Is it possible this is one of those and that the "home made" look of the conversion is due to the last ditch quality of late war German weapons? It might also explain the unidentified marking.
Cheers!
it does amaze me that the germans thought to stick a cannon into their jet fighters, like its a big long cannon sticking out of a streamline aircraft
Any chance of doing a video on a 2 cm Flak 30/38/Flakvierling anti-aircraft gun in the future?
Asking because I saw an Oeriklon on this channel once
Pretty cool, you don't see this every day on RUclips.
Since this is about aircraft guns: I've never seen a plane shooting outside of movies and games, so this is something I don't know: How do you clear a malfunction in an aircraft gun (or any that is fixed and fired remotely, I guess)? The pilot has probably the option to manually reload the guns, and the pneumatic charging is strong enough that it imitates let's say a clearance with the help of gravity (or whatever operates the charging handle, today probably just electronics?), is that it?
If cycling the charging handle (using a pneumatic system, generally) doesn't work, you simply have a non functioning gun until you can land and access it from the outside.
While mechanical stoppages or ammunition issues could occur, most aircraft gun failures were failures to feed. Consider that not only does the belt have to wend it's way through some tight confines and sharp corners, it has to do it under varying G loads and a wide range of environmental conditions.
(Ian - if you're up - from what you wer describing, the Germans weren't using disintegrating link belts. Is that indeed the case? If so, it makes the ammo handling issues more complicated.)
It's still not a trivial issue - the Colt Mk12 20mm guns used on the F-8 Crusader supersonic fighter (Last of the Gunfighters? Not quite - only 2 guns-only kills in Vietnam) were notorious for having their feeds jam while maneuvering.
They should do a video on the Russian ks-23 shotgun and all of it's ammo types. It would be really cool!
Given the volume of fire would the fired casings present a balance problem for the airplane when it made maneuvers? Or would the casings be light enough it wouldn't be a problem?
Not really - Airplanes are stable an controllable through a range of center of gravity (Balance point) locations.
For fuselage mounted guns, the weight of the machine gun ammunition isn't very high, and if there's a heavy gun 20mm-37mm cannon, for example) there isn't that much ammunition aboard. The ammunition is also stored just forward of the cockpit, so it's not far from the center of gravity. You get more effects by burning the fuel on board.
Pretty much what Peter Stickney said. German Wikipedia on the Bf 109 gives 500 rounds (or about 14kg) per MG 17 for most of the variants , 60 to a couple of hundred rounds for the heavier guns. All mounted quite close to where you want the center of gravity (CoG) to be (roughly speaking, where the wings are). Depending on the Version the Bf 109 carried 200 to 300kg of fuel behind the pilot, which might well be futher from the CoG than the ammunition. In some aircraft you can actually take off with the CoG in the allowed range and get it outside of limits just by burning fuel (and not planning properly).
Another factor leading to the use of the barrels by Volkstrum, by the end of the war Nazi Germany had very few pilots or planes left and much of their AF was converted to foot soldiers, so a cache of AF machine guns of an obsolete type was a waste of warehouse storage space.
:)
do you think you could get your hands on a German MG 151 20mm cannon or MG 131 13mm machinegun? it would be really cool to hear you talk about them.
How...I...ehm...I'm in love with this gun...
Do we have a chance at an MG13? I cant find any videoes of that thing.
You should try and find a mg 151 or mg mk 108.
awesome!
Didn't solothurn also make swiss arms aswell? I remember I had a AT84s Swiss handgun with a big solothurn on the side
Are you going to do a shooting segment on this gun 😉? Our local Commemorative Air Force chapter has a top turret from a Martin bomber with 2 M2s mounted. The turret is mounted on a trailer and is operational. I've been trying to talk them into getting the guns working and selling tickets to shoot it. I sat in it and your ears are about 3 inches in between two 50 BMG running at 600 rounds per minute. No wonder the WWII guys can't hear anything.
I am pretty sure that the FI.47500 stands for the barrel length.
Seems like the home made additions can still be removed if someone wants to place it into an aircraft.
Any possibility that we may be seeing a video on the DeLisle Carbine in the future?
Yes, for sure.
Awesome, I have been waiting for a long time to see that video. I look forward to it Ian, keep up the great work!
Forgotten Weapons, I know you'll never get one but could you do a video on the ME-109 propellor cannon?
First two numbers of the serial number could be production year.
Another cool video. On a side note, Forgotten Weapons should check out the Fuller Gun Collection at the Chickamauga National Military Park, if they haven't already.