“Is it wrong? Could be. Will it be a disaster? Might be.” Enjoyed the courage and honesty! I think it will work well. Thanks for documenting the system so we all can learn from your efforts!
If you are anywhere near as nice as guy as you seem in these videos, kudos to you. I'm grateful for the education you are sharing so generously with your audience, myself included!
I commend your efforts and i think your idea is sound, BUT, i saw no compacting going on. You cannot backfill 4 feet of dirt without compacting. In about a year you will begin having all kinds of settling problems. You should backfill in lifts of 1 foot maximum with vibratory compaction between each lift. There is no need to worry about crushing the corrugated pipe. It is designed to withstand the weight. One other things i noticed, you did no install filter fabric over and around the pipe. All you need is a small spot of dirt penetration and your pipe system is plugged and useless. I dont mean to critisize but these are major issues than be corrected before you get to far along if you havent already. Good Luck.
@Bbjones Jones It best to dig narrow trenches so you dont disturb the bulk of the mass. Its cheaper than excavating the entire floor and considerably less work if your using a spade not a backhoe.
I did notice that you mention around 8:30 that the heating would apply for about 1 foot around the pipe. I am convinced that, due to thermal fluctuation, heat will seek upwards. Though I do not exactly know how the directional matrix, with its center in the pipe, would look like in dirt/gravel. To sum up. Heat can go down from a source, but will in most conditions go upwards. Therefore. The dirts ability to absorb thermal energy would only apply above the pipe, not underneath it.
Heat conducts equally in all directions in solids. I think you are referring to hot air rising in convective heat transfer, which only occurs in air or fluids.
Energy moves from higher temperature to lower temperature. One of the laws of physics and engineering. In air, that typically happens by convection, with hot air rising up. In soil, it is a completely different equation. You will extract energy almost equally from all directions around the pipe.
We just build our greenhouse out off 1 1/4 emt conduit. It's 16ft by 40ft. Thank you for showing us how you guys build your greenhouse. It realy helped
hello sir i am an engineer from australia am very interested in the idea but I cant understand the reason for the foam insulation as I believe this foam insulation will work against your purpose to exchange heat with the ground , for example in summer if you are cooling your greenhouse it means you are warming the cool ground underneath and these foams will stop the ground from being able to cool back down to keep supplying you with cold air
perhaps the insulation would help the plants inside the greenhouse stay warmer throughout the winter. Therefore providing access to growing plants that usually wont survive in that zone
I sure hope you have wonderful luck with this project! I plan on doing a greenhouse eventually and this is great information for anyone! I do NOT plan to dig everything by hand! I'm too OLD!! Bee Blessed Danny and Rita in TN on Rooster's Ridge
Thank you! A backhoe would be the way to go with something like this, and my advice now would be to oversize EVERYTHING if I was going to do it again. OF course that means more money, but it would be a more effective system.
great stuff, only OCD type gripe is the handling of your bucket :) putting unnecessary stress on your hydrolic system! beyond that looks good and right by everything i've ever done or read keep it up we need more people to relearn the skills of living!
Just wondering if there is a better media to encase the pipes with to ensure more consistent retention and distribution of the controlled air temp, i.e P rock, 3/4 stone etc., I would think that would also be better for the drainage of condensation as there is very little if ant relief in the surrounding clay to accomedate (spl?) for drainage. Just a few observations. I am sure you are better informed than I am and you have done your home work, I am just looking at from the standpoint of a drain layer and having dealt with the many problems dealing with clay. I was also wondering about the route you took with the layout of the pipes as others mentioned, why not one continuous run. Also agree with the compaction every foot or so on the back fill, seen too many sidewalks on new homes cracking and sinking from rushing to back fill to only have everything settle and the problems eresulting. All in all, I wish you luck, just some of my observations, and yes, I have been known to over think things. LOL Definitely a great series and look forward to each episode.
you should also lay out foam a few feet width horizontal along the sidewall exterior ground and cover it with a little dirt to keep frost from entering it helps a lot
What about using like a #5 gravel around those pipes? Think that would retain the heat/cold air better? Are you worried that the clay might crush or fill the pipes? Great job on the project and the video, well done! So excited for you guys. :) Okay, makes sense on the gravel.
It does not seem that the clay crushed the pipes. We tested the system last night and there seemed to be zero reduction on airflow. As to gravel, as I understand it we want clay up against the pipes as they are what will absorb and hold the heat pushed into the system, but we're doing this based on what others have done or said - no first hand experience yet. We'll certainly share the results and outcomes. Thanks for watching and for the support!
What was your Temperature reading, coming up from the tubing in the ground? We use to SNAKE our Hose/Tubing depending on what we were building, and use Hot Water to heat.. as in radiant from the floor up, very Stable once it comes to desired temp. Same HOT water ran through the Hot Water heater for the House, being a secondary benefit (free house water for house use). We burn USED Engine Oil & Vegetable Oil.... all FREE. One heat I built early goes up to 1000 deg.F. Hot water short and sweet.!
We have 80 or so days above 100 in summer and the same number of frosty nights. I’m picturing something similar to your system, but putting the floor of the greenhouse 3’ underground for added insulation. Stack 4’ of cinder blocks as lower walls, then timber frame roof. It would be on a slope, so we can easily drain ground water.
Nice work! Great progress...love to see everyone involved! I'm working on my 10x20 EMT frame greenhouse and hope to have it finished in the next month...weather has not been cooperating! Excited to see this system come to life for you!
Ha! Talk about weather not cooperating! Right there with you. Yesterday was a race against time (and incoming rain), and to our boys' great credit they never complained once about being out there all day, no lunch, working hard in the cold and rain. We're hoping to get it all completed ASAP and actually use it before summer gets here. Best wishes on your greenhouse!
How is the greenhouse working out since winter? I’m about to bury my tubes. putting the clay dirt over the tubes still the best no covering no rocks? Thank you
If I were to choose a position on your crew it would be what ever the dog does. Man that's smart. Lol, its almost as hard to do a project as it is to film it, dead batteries, full sd cards.... Great job, using this for our build so thank you for the in sight!
I am concerned about groundwater in those pipes. I am not an expert and not trying to point flaws in your work. I would love an update. We use buried pipe like that as a mock french drain to spread groundwater away from wet spots and move around the property. Wouldn't mold become an issue? The fans will dry it some, but wouldn't there be daily condensation? Thank you for running this experiment, how did it turn out?
I have a question. If you already dig that far as you did, why didn’t you just leave the ground floor on that height? Whatever temperature you are getting from those pipes would be your floor temperature. And perhaps dig just those pipes a bit further down to get few more degrees from them. If at all. No?
I sure love this idea and hope it works. One worry is the distribution of air into the system. At low air velocities, I don't think it will be a big deal. But at higher velocities, there will be turbulence, raising the resistance. So the first split will see similar resistance in each direction, meaning volume will split roughly evenly between each side. But one side of the split connects to only one lateral run, while the other side goes to multiple. The heat/cold will be split asymmetrically. Its just a worry. Let's see if it is a real world problem.
Hello and thank you for your videos and updates to your in ground greenhouse. I am in the process of putting one in myself in Kansas. My greenhouse is 20 x 40, 8’ south wall, 12’ north wall. I will be installing a climate battery and was wondering where and what type/brand, etc. of in-line fans you used. Thank you and God bless you in your endeavors!
I would have thought with perforated pipe it would need at least a cover of clear stone with a fabric over it to allow it to work. Clay turns perforated pipe into unperforated. Interesting stuff. Wonder if this system worked or what changes he would make to the design.
I thought the pipe would run like a snake instead of going parallel ,is there any specific reason to do the way you did? Isn't running the pipe in a continuous snake formation let the air more time to cool down? Tell me if iam wrong😊
Just a thought on the part where you talk about pulling the hot air from up top down into the piping through the ground. I think it would be more efficient to push the cooler more dense air from down near the floor through the pipe. The effect is the same, but I think it may work better and would really just require you to change which pipe your fans are connected to. I don't have a greenhouse like this, but I'm in the very early stages of trying to plan for one, so YMMV. Would love to hear what you think about that.
Adam, let me first say that we have no personal experience with one of these systems - we have only seen articles and videos about them, so we are trusting that ALL of those are correct and should see soon enough. As we understand it, the idea is to HEAT the ground clay as much as possible during the day and summer and then use that at night and in the winter. Hopefully we'll explain it more in future videos - if the weather will ever cooperate long enough for us to get back to the project!
Wouldn't you want the heat to bleed out? For example; It's summer and you are pulling the cool air out and packing it with hot air. Now the cold air supply stops because the ground is warming. As all things in nature try to balance, the ground around it [if not using foam] would pull the heat out allowing the dirt to remain cool. But with foam it works like a cooler. The hot air does not leach out and instead maintains the temperature, allowing for no more cool air to be pulled from the ground. I feel like I am missing something.
What is the reason you are putting foam polystyrene sheets around the walls of the soil ?And the black connecting perforated pipes are not water locked so water can easily penetrate them, Did you make this calculation? Thanks
The header system you're using appears far less efficient than had you run a continuous serpentine hose back and forth to maximize underground air time.
you are correct - don't listen to the stoners. Have done these projects before - this will work ok with pipes spread out. You are working with heated mass, which is a slow exchange. All the effort to dig a damn hole, you better make use of it. Velocity? Give me a break.
These are called GAHT systems, Ground to Air Heat Transfer. One thing I might add is that they have a high temp. and low temp. limit switches, that way your not using energy moving air when the temp. is just right in the green house....usually 50 F at the low and 75 F for the high....you save a bit on electricity, not as noisy all the time, blowers last longer and I'd like to add if your going to try this system out, go for it, they work great. Try and use 6 inch for your manifolds and solid 6 inch for the risers with 4 inch weeping pipe as shown here. Good job here and certainly worth it but could be improved on.
Why you don't have insulation on the floor under the pipes? I think heat escapes not only to the side but underneath because soil at that depth are much colder than the soil above some feet.
Thank you for sharing this. I'm wondering why you decided not to use french drain filter fabric sock on your pipes? I'm planning on building a much smaller cattle panel greenhouse (12.5 ft x 7 ft) with a climate battery this summer/fall. My plan is to only go down 2 ft, insulate the perimeter, and lay water filled 16 oz plastic coke bottles along the drains to add more "heat/cold storage". I'm not sure this will work. But it costs me nothing since I have been saving the used bottles. There are so many variations and divergent opinions about this. I look forward to seeing how this works out for you.
You're welcome. As to the drain sock, since water won't be flowing into the pipes (along with silt) as it would in a french drain, we just didn't see it a necessary expense. The clay back fill is not that small and basically compresses back to a hard packed mass. It really shouldn't be an issue clogging the pipes. Your idea with two liter bottles can't hurt. Might want to consider doing something like spray painting them black. And yes, there are a LOT of opinions about all of this. I tend to go with Jason Smith over at Coghill Farm, just try things and "grind it out" as he says. Experiment and have fun. If it doesn't work, try something else.
Was the intent of this construction to store daytime heat and then reclaim the heat at night, or was it intended to access more constant ground temperatures at depth? If intended for storing heat, would it have been better to also lay the foam flat, somewhere below the pipes?
Well, can you do a follow up video please? I think most of us theatre thinking about building something like this would like some verification of how well it works, so we can validate the expense with our wives!! Well done by the way!
Looks good! Only thing I would say is... it might have been better to put the insulation right AT the walls rather than inset... inset, you will get cold "bleeding" in from the outside soil during winter. I am looking forward to seeing how this work for you!
Awesome endeavor! I wonder, if you have compared smooth wall perforated pipes instead of ribbed, because from hvac efficiency I know the ribs add big resistance to the air flow. Of course this is a slow moving, but just wondering. I'll check your other videos, if you haven't given updates, let us know how it turned out. Also, something else to consider as cheap efficient insurance, just like in the pipe and gravel septic leach fields you put building paper over the gravel, you could do so over the pipes before backfilling. This would protect form silt geting into the perforations but I think like you said, it's probably OK without it too. Good luck and thanks for sharing
That would defeat the purpose. The ribbed pipes causes more turbulence, and more soil contact. That is the goal. covering the pipes would also greatly reduce thermal transfer. The efficiency of the air travel is not a concern here, at least not in how hvac systems operate. You actually want more turbulence in this instance. More chance for thermal transfer to/from the soil.
Think it's a great idea. Could see a bathtub effect with the now softer soil above the hard clay. But that would equalize eventually. Looking forward to the results! Like you said, see how it goes and modify.
Yes, realizing repacking the soil, on our time frame (and trying to stay ahead of rain) is an issue. I plan to drive the tractor over it repeatedly, hoping to get good compaction. Hopefully, the system works!
Good day, I am also planning to put in heating and cooling for my greenhouse. How effective does this technique work, what is the increase in temperature using. And how low do your temperatures drop during winter and are you able to heat it during the winter?
might be an idea to have a sump at one end in case your system completely fills with water if your water table goes up in the rainy season . hope things work out great
The specific heat capacity is around 2.2 for clay soil and 4.2 for water. Granted a system with water needs storage tanks and water being pumped around. However you get twice the heat sink, thermal storage capacity
Great concept but I don't know about using big o. I used that for drainage and after about 10 years I got sink holes along the runs. Turns out the big o collapsed. I went with perforated pvc and have had no problems since.
I am trying to construct a very similar geothermal greenhouse in Herriman utah. However Herriman city wants a stamped engineered plan. Do you have an engineer who provided your plan?
Looks awesome. Question as I listened to the condensate and air flow description. What happens in future if and when roots work their way into the "feeding" source you've just created underground? It will be a perfect aeroponic environment.
Cheers, great share pre installing a GAHT system on my side. Would you recommend any tweaking to your system, except altering the 4” with 6” inlet? I'm would you stuck to clay or use gravel or base-coarse? Is it comfortable to be inside in summer? We have hot summers in the Mediterranean climate and i’m interested to spend time in the greenhouse all year around. To grow and just stay there. It's gone be double glaze. Many thanks in advance. All the best
Without a system to compare to personally, it would be hard to know about tweaks. The biggest improvement would simply be moving MORE air. Money was a limiting constraint for us. If it wasn't, we would have used much larger pipes and fans. As a result, it is NOT comfortable inside in the summer. The system simply can't move enough air and the solar gain is too much. Hope this helps.
Enjoyed all the build even seeing the failures. I've been in the planning stage for a while. I'd like to know where you found your inflatable plastic from. and how's it been working. Thanks for sharing.
I would think you'd want to cover these tubes with sand and gravel gravel on the edge sand in the middle it holds more thermal mass and then dirt on top of the sand so it'd be like a heating pad throwing dirt on top of it I don't know if dirt would hold this thermal mass as well as sand will actually soak in heat
Why do folks think they are drain holes/slits? Drainage tubing is designed to let water IN and convey it elsewhere. The position of the perforations/holes or slits are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard in this application. I recommend folks buy non perforated tubing and cut a straight slot part way through the corrugations using a simple jig and a circular saw or router. Position the slot at the bottom during installation.This allows all of the condensate to drain out instead of being trapped in every corrugation.
I"m looking at doing something like this, but I live in a drained swamp and if I have perforated pipe it will fill with water likely to the point of restricting or preventing air flow. any suggestions on other piping to use?
With an R factor of about 1 per inch of soil I would want to see some research on the effectiveness vs. cost of using the insulation along the perimeter of the thermal mass. However, placing rigid insulation right at the bottom edge of the greenhouse and going down 2' into the ground can prevent thermal bleeding into the greenhouse itself. Basically, you keep the frost line out of the greenhouse and extend the use of the greenhouse later into the winter months - something I've seen firsthand. During your use of the greenhouse in the course of the next 2 years would you make a record of the ground and air temperatures for both inside and outside of the greenhouse?
Thanks for the feedback and info. Yes, we plan to track data points at various times of year and share them in the future. We've done a few one year update videos. We'll no doubt do one for this as well.
Do you know or think that there is a benefit to going deeper than 4 feet? I am considering doing a aquaponics system by digging a 10 to 12 foot basement with the fish in the basement and the plants at 2 to 4 feet below grade. I would put the geothermal system at 14 to 16 feet?
Not really sure we understand the question. Air goes in one end, and blows out the other. The only shortcuts we've discerned is that air actually finds its way back up through cracks in the dirt - which is not necessarily a problem.
“Is it wrong? Could be. Will it be a disaster? Might be.”
Enjoyed the courage and honesty! I think it will work well. Thanks for documenting the system so we all can learn from your efforts!
If you are anywhere near as nice as guy as you seem in these videos, kudos to you. I'm grateful for the education you are sharing so generously with your audience, myself included!
I commend your efforts and i think your idea is sound, BUT, i saw no compacting going on. You cannot backfill 4 feet of dirt without compacting. In about a year you will begin having all kinds of settling problems. You should backfill in lifts of 1 foot maximum with vibratory compaction between each lift. There is no need to worry about crushing the corrugated pipe. It is designed to withstand the weight. One other things i noticed, you did no install filter fabric over and around the pipe. All you need is a small spot of dirt penetration and your pipe system is plugged and useless. I dont mean to critisize but these are major issues than be corrected before you get to far along if you havent already. Good Luck.
@Bbjones Jones
It best to dig narrow trenches so you dont disturb the bulk of the mass. Its cheaper than excavating the entire floor and considerably less work if your using a spade not a backhoe.
yeah the filling part make me anxious... You have to fill 30 to 40cm
and compact....
It settled some, but not a great deal.
@@sigmawarrior.fokeryou It worked out fine. God bless!
See...this is why on projects I like to read the comments...so I can be more aware !!! Thanks everyone 👏👏👏
I sure hope this is a HUGE success for you guys!! Good Job! I love seeing the whole family working together!
Thank you! It is fun having everyone out working on projects together. God bless!
Was just looking into greenhouse options for this year, and saw your video in my search results. Haven't seen a fellow FFA member online before! 🏕
I did notice that you mention around 8:30 that the heating would apply for about 1 foot around the pipe. I am convinced that, due to thermal fluctuation, heat will seek upwards. Though I do not exactly know how the directional matrix, with its center in the pipe, would look like in dirt/gravel. To sum up. Heat can go down from a source, but will in most conditions go upwards. Therefore. The dirts ability to absorb thermal energy would only apply above the pipe, not underneath it.
Heat conducts equally in all directions in solids. I think you are referring to hot air rising in convective heat transfer, which only occurs in air or fluids.
Energy moves from higher temperature to lower temperature. One of the laws of physics and engineering. In air, that typically happens by convection, with hot air rising up. In soil, it is a completely different equation. You will extract energy almost equally from all directions around the pipe.
We just build our greenhouse out off 1 1/4 emt conduit. It's 16ft by 40ft. Thank you for showing us how you guys build your greenhouse. It realy helped
Wow - you beat us to a completed greenhouse! Glad anything we've uploaded could be of help to others.
How did it work? Any videos?
hello sir i am an engineer from australia am very interested in the idea but I cant understand the reason for the foam insulation as I believe this foam insulation will work against your purpose to exchange heat with the ground , for example in summer if you are cooling your greenhouse it means you are warming the cool ground underneath and these foams will stop the ground from being able to cool back down to keep supplying you with cold air
I wanted to add the same . The ground will cool down the area onlt from underneath
perhaps the insulation would help the plants inside the greenhouse stay warmer throughout the winter. Therefore providing access to growing plants that usually wont survive in that zone
I sure hope you have wonderful luck with this project! I plan on doing a greenhouse eventually and this is great information for anyone! I do NOT plan to dig everything by hand! I'm too OLD!! Bee Blessed Danny and Rita in TN on Rooster's Ridge
Thank you! A backhoe would be the way to go with something like this, and my advice now would be to oversize EVERYTHING if I was going to do it again. OF course that means more money, but it would be a more effective system.
well done. thanks for showing us your experiences. it's great to be able to visualize how things might work out best.
Ok, I am totally new with all this stuff and none of this still makes any sense, but this is *amazing* !
Im jealous, looks like a fun build and you have a great looking family hope to get there someday myself.
great stuff, only OCD type gripe is the handling of your bucket :) putting unnecessary stress on your hydrolic system! beyond that looks good and right by everything i've ever done or read keep it up we need more people to relearn the skills of living!
😬 guilty as charged. I am to rough on it. But that little tractor got the job done!!
Great vid, I use tubs on a way small scale to run hot air on way down and it transfers to water. Your dog thought he liked digging,
Just wondering if there is a better media to encase the pipes with to ensure more consistent retention and distribution of the controlled air temp, i.e P rock, 3/4 stone etc., I would think that would also be better for the drainage of condensation as there is very little if ant relief in the surrounding clay to accomedate (spl?) for drainage. Just a few observations.
I am sure you are better informed than I am and you have done your home work, I am just looking at from the standpoint of a drain layer and having dealt with the many problems dealing with clay. I was also wondering about the route you took with the layout of the pipes as others mentioned, why not one continuous run. Also agree with the compaction every foot or so on the back fill, seen too many sidewalks on new homes cracking and sinking from rushing to back fill to only have everything settle and the problems eresulting.
All in all, I wish you luck, just some of my observations, and yes, I have been known to over think things. LOL
Definitely a great series and look forward to each episode.
you should also lay out foam a few feet width horizontal along the sidewall exterior ground and cover it with a little dirt to keep frost from entering it helps a lot
Great work! Did the same thing on my channel a year ago. My greenhouse was finished last week, so I am VERY excited for next season! :-)
Congratulations!
What about using like a #5 gravel around those pipes? Think that would retain the heat/cold air better? Are you worried that the clay might crush or fill the pipes? Great job on the project and the video, well done! So excited for you guys. :) Okay, makes sense on the gravel.
It does not seem that the clay crushed the pipes. We tested the system last night and there seemed to be zero reduction on airflow. As to gravel, as I understand it we want clay up against the pipes as they are what will absorb and hold the heat pushed into the system, but we're doing this based on what others have done or said - no first hand experience yet. We'll certainly share the results and outcomes. Thanks for watching and for the support!
What was your Temperature reading, coming up from the tubing in the ground? We use to SNAKE our Hose/Tubing depending on what we were building, and use Hot Water to heat.. as in radiant from the floor up, very Stable once it comes to desired temp. Same HOT water ran through the Hot Water heater for the House, being a secondary benefit (free house water for house use). We burn USED Engine Oil & Vegetable Oil.... all FREE. One heat I built early goes up to 1000 deg.F. Hot water short and sweet.!
We have 80 or so days above 100 in summer and the same number of frosty nights. I’m picturing something similar to your system, but putting the floor of the greenhouse 3’ underground for added insulation. Stack 4’ of cinder blocks as lower walls, then timber frame roof. It would be on a slope, so we can easily drain ground water.
Nice work! Great progress...love to see everyone involved! I'm working on my 10x20 EMT frame greenhouse and hope to have it finished in the next month...weather has not been cooperating! Excited to see this system come to life for you!
Ha! Talk about weather not cooperating! Right there with you. Yesterday was a race against time (and incoming rain), and to our boys' great credit they never complained once about being out there all day, no lunch, working hard in the cold and rain. We're hoping to get it all completed ASAP and actually use it before summer gets here. Best wishes on your greenhouse!
I just love this video.. I hope to take on this project for my own one day..
Fantastic job.. There is no right or wrong long as your plants produce..
Short sleeves!! This project is really coming together. Love it.
Yes! You guys keep the snow up North!
🙏Thanks for sharing. Just one question, no geotextile fabric to stop soil/bugs from coming in contact with the air?
How is the greenhouse working out since winter? I’m about to bury my tubes. putting the clay dirt over the tubes still the best no covering no rocks? Thank you
If I were to choose a position on your crew it would be what ever the dog does. Man that's smart. Lol, its almost as hard to do a project as it is to film it, dead batteries, full sd cards.... Great job, using this for our build so thank you for the in sight!
Ha, yes the dog has the life! Thanks for the kind words. All the best to you and yours.
Smooth bore pipe has less resistance = smaller fan or blower great thought
I am concerned about groundwater in those pipes. I am not an expert and not trying to point flaws in your work. I would love an update. We use buried pipe like that as a mock french drain to spread groundwater away from wet spots and move around the property. Wouldn't mold become an issue? The fans will dry it some, but wouldn't there be daily condensation? Thank you for running this experiment, how did it turn out?
I have a question. If you already dig that far as you did, why didn’t you just leave the ground floor on that height? Whatever temperature you are getting from those pipes would be your floor temperature. And perhaps dig just those pipes a bit further down to get few more degrees from them. If at all. No?
I sure love this idea and hope it works. One worry is the distribution of air into the system. At low air velocities, I don't think it will be a big deal. But at higher velocities, there will be turbulence, raising the resistance. So the first split will see similar resistance in each direction, meaning volume will split roughly evenly between each side. But one side of the split connects to only one lateral run, while the other side goes to multiple. The heat/cold will be split asymmetrically.
Its just a worry. Let's see if it is a real world problem.
Hello and thank you for your videos and updates to your in ground greenhouse. I am in the process of putting one in myself in Kansas. My greenhouse is 20 x 40, 8’ south wall, 12’ north wall. I will be installing a climate battery and was wondering where and what type/brand, etc. of in-line fans you used. Thank you and God bless you in your endeavors!
I would have thought with perforated pipe it would need at least a cover of clear stone with a fabric over it to allow it to work. Clay turns perforated pipe into unperforated. Interesting stuff. Wonder if this system worked or what changes he would make to the design.
I thought the pipe would run like a snake instead of going parallel ,is there any specific reason to do the way you did? Isn't running the pipe in a continuous snake formation let the air more time to cool down? Tell me if iam wrong😊
You are right and you get never an equal flow trough the pipes , bad design .
Just a thought on the part where you talk about pulling the hot air from up top down into the piping through the ground. I think it would be more efficient to push the cooler more dense air from down near the floor through the pipe. The effect is the same, but I think it may work better and would really just require you to change which pipe your fans are connected to. I don't have a greenhouse like this, but I'm in the very early stages of trying to plan for one, so YMMV. Would love to hear what you think about that.
Adam, let me first say that we have no personal experience with one of these systems - we have only seen articles and videos about them, so we are trusting that ALL of those are correct and should see soon enough. As we understand it, the idea is to HEAT the ground clay as much as possible during the day and summer and then use that at night and in the winter. Hopefully we'll explain it more in future videos - if the weather will ever cooperate long enough for us to get back to the project!
Your on the right track it's the only way to learn anything is by doing it. Have you looked into Aquaponics ? Old school for the 21st century
I built mine with sleeves over the perforated tubing to prevent dirt filling the tubes
Yes, we're hoping we don't regret not doing that, but since water won't be routinely flowing into them, maybe we'll be ok.
I was just going to ask about geo fabric sleeves .....
No personal experience with thermal effect of this but, I have used weed mat to protect drain tiles used in landscaping applications.
I was thinking strategically drilling drain holes in the bottom of non-perf pipe to allow drainage but eliminate the need for filter sock.
We use geo fabric on all of our drain pipes and drain rock. It work great seperating water from soil.
Would there be benefit to having an insulation layer beneath the pipes?
Wouldn't you want the heat to bleed out?
For example; It's summer and you are pulling the cool air out and packing it with hot air. Now the cold air supply stops because the ground is warming. As all things in nature try to balance, the ground around it [if not using foam] would pull the heat out allowing the dirt to remain cool. But with foam it works like a cooler. The hot air does not leach out and instead maintains the temperature, allowing for no more cool air to be pulled from the ground. I feel like I am missing something.
Thank you! Im wondering if its possible to cool a greenhouse from 40 Celsius to 20 Celsius using your method?
What is the reason you are putting foam polystyrene sheets around the walls of the soil ?And the black connecting perforated pipes are not water locked so water can easily penetrate them, Did you make this calculation? Thanks
The header system you're using appears far less efficient than had you run a continuous serpentine hose back and forth to maximize underground air time.
Things as they appear and things as they are, are sometimes two different things
@Dennis Totmann, agree completely!
I think it depends. Maybe the goal is lower velocity through the underground pipe to allow more heat exchange to occur.
@@edwardj456
The goal is the exact opposite ;)
you are correct - don't listen to the stoners. Have done these projects before - this will work ok with pipes spread out. You are working with heated mass, which is a slow exchange. All the effort to dig a damn hole, you better make use of it. Velocity? Give me a break.
Can you mix dirt and wool to fill in the hole around the pipes?
I think the recommended depth to dig is 8-10 feet. Where's your frost line? Can't wait to see the result.
with a geothermal Greenhouse is there any benefit in insulating horizonally above the heating tubes?
These are called GAHT systems, Ground to Air Heat Transfer. One thing I might add is that they have a high temp. and low temp. limit switches, that way your not using energy moving air when the temp. is just right in the green house....usually 50 F at the low and 75 F for the high....you save a bit on electricity, not as noisy all the time, blowers last longer and I'd like to add if your going to try this system out, go for it, they work great. Try and use 6 inch for your manifolds and solid 6 inch for the risers with 4 inch weeping pipe as shown here. Good job here and certainly worth it but could be improved on.
Why you don't have insulation on the floor under the pipes? I think heat escapes not only to the side but underneath because soil at that depth are much colder than the soil above some feet.
LOL. 4:51 starts the silhouette making an appearance on the dirt mound
Best Part!
Thank you for sharing this. I'm wondering why you decided not to use french drain filter fabric sock on your pipes? I'm planning on building a much smaller cattle panel greenhouse (12.5 ft x 7 ft) with a climate battery this summer/fall. My plan is to only go down 2 ft, insulate the perimeter, and lay water filled 16 oz plastic coke bottles along the drains to add more "heat/cold storage". I'm not sure this will work. But it costs me nothing since I have been saving the used bottles. There are so many variations and divergent opinions about this. I look forward to seeing how this works out for you.
You're welcome. As to the drain sock, since water won't be flowing into the pipes (along with silt) as it would in a french drain, we just didn't see it a necessary expense. The clay back fill is not that small and basically compresses back to a hard packed mass. It really shouldn't be an issue clogging the pipes. Your idea with two liter bottles can't hurt. Might want to consider doing something like spray painting them black. And yes, there are a LOT of opinions about all of this. I tend to go with Jason Smith over at Coghill Farm, just try things and "grind it out" as he says. Experiment and have fun. If it doesn't work, try something else.
Was the intent of this construction to store daytime heat and then reclaim the heat at night, or was it intended to access more constant ground temperatures at depth?
If intended for storing heat, would it have been better to also lay the foam flat, somewhere below the pipes?
Well, can you do a follow up video please? I think most of us theatre thinking about building something like this would like some verification of how well it works, so we can validate the expense with our wives!! Well done by the way!
I agree.
Did you notice the white figure that popped u just behind ur shoulder .. at the mound ? !! Amazing !
Why not 5 inch. 2 inch seems pretty thin ? Did it work?
Looks good! Only thing I would say is... it might have been better to put the insulation right AT the walls rather than inset... inset, you will get cold "bleeding" in from the outside soil during winter. I am looking forward to seeing how this work for you!
no you will not. but thanks for your concern.
Nice work! Helped me plan for mine, I just need to see how the fans work and what sort of fan. Going to check your other videos now 👍🏼
Question for you, without styrofoam on the bottom floor, are you losing a lot of heat to the earth in winter?
That foam won’t decay or moist?
Awesome endeavor! I wonder, if you have compared smooth wall perforated pipes instead of ribbed, because from hvac efficiency I know the ribs add big resistance to the air flow. Of course this is a slow moving, but just wondering. I'll check your other videos, if you haven't given updates, let us know how it turned out. Also, something else to consider as cheap efficient insurance, just like in the pipe and gravel septic leach fields you put building paper over the gravel, you could do so over the pipes before backfilling. This would protect form silt geting into the perforations but I think like you said, it's probably OK without it too. Good luck and thanks for sharing
That would defeat the purpose. The ribbed pipes causes more turbulence, and more soil contact. That is the goal. covering the pipes would also greatly reduce thermal transfer. The efficiency of the air travel is not a concern here, at least not in how hvac systems operate. You actually want more turbulence in this instance. More chance for thermal transfer to/from the soil.
@@klincecum that makes alot of sense thanks for the explanation Happy New Year
@@alexsmith9328 Cheers!
Foil covered foam on one side facing inward may reflect heat back towards your medium while insulating from the cold exterior earth .
How did this work for you? Maybe an update video?
How cold are your winters?
Do you expect enough heat gain in winter, to keep growing?
Or does this just lengthen the growing season.
can worm not eat through the isolation foam?
Great, innovative idea being implemented
Think it's a great idea. Could see a bathtub effect with the now softer soil above the hard clay. But that would equalize eventually. Looking forward to the results! Like you said, see how it goes and modify.
Yes, realizing repacking the soil, on our time frame (and trying to stay ahead of rain) is an issue. I plan to drive the tractor over it repeatedly, hoping to get good compaction. Hopefully, the system works!
Good day, I am also planning to put in heating and cooling for my greenhouse. How effective does this technique work, what is the increase in temperature using. And how low do your temperatures drop during winter and are you able to heat it during the winter?
So happy I found this. Thanks for sharing keep up the good work.
I would like to how this still working for you as you had anticipated? Would you do anything different now?
might be an idea to have a sump at one end in case your system completely fills with water if your water table goes up in the rainy season . hope things work out great
Thanks - yes we're planning to at least be prepared to put hoses down into the outlets and pump water out if necessary.
Good idea ! It will give u cool air when u need it.
The specific heat capacity is around 2.2 for clay soil and 4.2 for water. Granted a system with water needs storage tanks and water being pumped around. However you get twice the heat sink, thermal storage capacity
Sooo, if I want to have my greenhouse cooled instead of heated (I live in zone 10a/b), then I would not use foam board? Gonna diy in backyard…
Great concept but I don't know about using big o. I used that for drainage and after about 10 years I got sink holes along the runs. Turns out the big o collapsed. I went with perforated pvc and have had no problems since.
WONT THE pipes fill up with ground water after heavy rains and snow melts in the spring??
Most geothermal projects includ pumps for condensation build up
So did the styrofoam insulation work? I want to build something like this.
2” not 4” insulation is sufficient?
I am trying to construct a very similar geothermal greenhouse in Herriman utah. However Herriman city wants a stamped engineered plan. Do you have an engineer who provided your plan?
How do you keep the water seasonal water table from filling the pipes and restricting airflow?
Looks awesome.
Question as I listened to the condensate and air flow description. What happens in future if and when roots work their way into the "feeding" source you've just created underground? It will be a perfect aeroponic environment.
Any roots that try to enter the tubes are air pruned.
How do you deal with potential mold in the pipeline?
So, it's 2022 and I'm curious; how did this work out?
so, what happens in the HEAT of summer?
I think you should’ve covered the perforated pipe with cloth just a idea
So why isn't there any insulation on the bottom?
Did it work well or what?
sorry, I have a question: the corrugated plastic pipes used, should be perforated (like drainage pipes) or not ? Thanks if everybody knows the answer!
In my area we have a high water table so I had to install a sump pump as the ground pipes filled with water!
Cheers, great share pre installing a GAHT system on my side. Would you recommend any tweaking to your system, except altering the 4” with 6” inlet?
I'm would you stuck to clay or use gravel or base-coarse?
Is it comfortable to be inside in summer? We have hot summers in the Mediterranean climate and i’m interested to spend time in the greenhouse all year around. To grow and just stay there.
It's gone be double glaze.
Many thanks in advance.
All the best
Without a system to compare to personally, it would be hard to know about tweaks. The biggest improvement would simply be moving MORE air. Money was a limiting constraint for us. If it wasn't, we would have used much larger pipes and fans. As a result, it is NOT comfortable inside in the summer. The system simply can't move enough air and the solar gain is too much. Hope this helps.
@@StIsidoresFarm so likely would help to extend growing season for climates that are colder longer?
I'd be worried about how biodegradable that foam is. How easy is this to compromise with mold and bacteria? How much can you do to stave it off?
Enjoyed all the build even seeing the failures. I've been in the planning stage for a while. I'd like to know where you found your inflatable plastic from. and how's it been working. Thanks for sharing.
Amazing! Bob's Adventures hailing from Idaho
Did this work?
I would think you'd want to cover these tubes with sand and gravel gravel on the edge sand in the middle it holds more thermal mass and then dirt on top of the sand so it'd be like a heating pad throwing dirt on top of it I don't know if dirt would hold this thermal mass as well as sand will actually soak in heat
Shouldn't you put a fine mesh cloth over the pipes to keep the drain holes clear from dirt?
Why do folks think they are drain holes/slits? Drainage tubing is designed to let water IN and convey it elsewhere. The position of the perforations/holes or slits are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard in this application. I recommend folks buy non perforated tubing and cut a straight slot part way through the corrugations using a simple jig and a circular saw or router. Position the slot at the bottom during installation.This allows all of the condensate to drain out instead of being trapped in every corrugation.
I"m looking at doing something like this, but I live in a drained swamp and if I have perforated pipe it will fill with water likely to the point of restricting or preventing air flow. any suggestions on other piping to use?
Do you offer consultation for this ?
With an R factor of about 1 per inch of soil I would want to see some research on the effectiveness vs. cost of using the insulation along the perimeter of the thermal mass. However, placing rigid insulation right at the bottom edge of the greenhouse and going down 2' into the ground can prevent thermal bleeding into the greenhouse itself. Basically, you keep the frost line out of the greenhouse and extend the use of the greenhouse later into the winter months - something I've seen firsthand. During your use of the greenhouse in the course of the next 2 years would you make a record of the ground and air temperatures for both inside and outside of the greenhouse?
Thanks for the feedback and info. Yes, we plan to track data points at various times of year and share them in the future. We've done a few one year update videos. We'll no doubt do one for this as well.
Do you know or think that there is a benefit to going deeper than 4 feet? I am considering doing a aquaponics system by digging a 10 to 12 foot basement with the fish in the basement and the plants at 2 to 4 feet below grade. I would put the geothermal system at 14 to 16 feet?
12-40 feet deep would provide the upmost stable of temps. Just more difficult to do. Depends on what youre goals are for the greenhouse i guess
Hi there, quick question. When you say clay do you mean clay or soil or backfill ?
How do you know for sure that the air goes through all of the pipes? The forced air could take a shortcut and come back out the other end...
Not really sure we understand the question. Air goes in one end, and blows out the other. The only shortcuts we've discerned is that air actually finds its way back up through cracks in the dirt - which is not necessarily a problem.
They have a silk sock to wrap perforated pipe with. It comes in a long roll.