As a programmer, I'm willing to bet that the lack of butt hurtbox while shielding is because it's expanded into a circle becoming the shield. The center of the circle matches where the hurtbox should be :D
A couple of extra notes here : Since Yoshi has no shieldstun (and may parry a hit), frame advantage calculations are inherently different from all other chars (ICs also have some exceptions with their double shield). What this means is that some laggy moves can STILL be punished on BLOCK by the character, even though his out of shield options are slow. For instance, if he releases shield as soon as hit, he can punish marth fsmash with release shield -> fsmash. In general, you do not want to hit his shield with most tilt or smash attacks. This frame advantage gets even MORE in Yoshi's favour if he happened to block the move at the very beginning of his shield and got parry -> shield release, in which case Marth suffers hitlag whereas Yoshi doesn't. So Yoshi using shield to block a move is valid in more options than many people think. STAYING in shield is where Yoshi is in a weak spot. People tend to associate his lack of shieldstun with stronger shielddrops, but it also does benefit his grounded game. Even then, he still has options beside lightshielding. Spotdodge/shield release is a non-trivial mixup to react to, and he can PARRY straight after either of these options, making the window tight for punishes. Besides, his roll has some unusual properties to it that may make it harder to punish for some characters (and with stricter timing windows). Also, commentators keep forgetting about this, but : parry -> hold shield/grab/release shield/spotdodge are all options, as well as parry->shield when techchased to dodge grabs. Missing the parry window leaves him in shield, true. But there probably are some very strong option selects for parry/no parry that haven't been labbed out or implemented yet. Also, TY tauKhan and PerhapsMan.
I think Yoshi is both the most underdeveloped and has the most potential. The things I’ve learned over the years about him when I mained him and the things he’s capable of are mind blowing. If only controller variances and human limitations weren’t a factor he would be even more viable. People might think he’s overrated but his potential has barely been tapped into. Amsa is a good representation of the character but there are also so many more ways to play him and more optimal options to implement.
I would also agree, becuse Doc is bearly seen in any top 64 in any big tournments. And I would say Ganondorf has now more tournment representation then Doc, bucuse for the most times one of the Ganon-mains eather Kage or Bizzaro Flame makes it to top 64. Heck even N0ne uses Ganon sometimes inside top 64, to counterpick some match ups, mostley Ice Climers.
Ya man I main Falcon and doc and whenever I try to find doc videos the only person I find is shroomed who don't get me wrong is a beast at doc but I feel like I never see anyone else
@@bubbymacduncan8940 Haven't been keeping up lately so I haven't heard of him, but any lower tier characters gotta play patient and methodical if they wanna keep up with characters who can just press buttons and have good hitboxes and frame data
I think that Luigi's an extremely underdeveloped character in tournaments, he has an amazing wavedash and awesome waveland options, I love how there's still luigi mains (such as LuigiKid).
Young Link is seriously the most under developed AND has got hidden potential for sure. His neutral game can be difficult but with correct reads and conditioning he can be an edgeguard monster, both passively and aggressively.
I think Donkey Kong has the most hidden potential as a character. he has decent movement with his dash dance, a quick and somewhat reliable back air, and his upthrow>Up-Air combos are sick because they lead into donkey punches and spiking fairs. he's the definitely the most underrated mid tier
Those options all lose to all stationary defensive options as well as dashdancing and wavedash back. Also baiting people with bair isn't an approach, you're trying to bait them into approaching.
I'm probably bias as fuck with this one but Yoshi has the most potential to me :p I feel Game and Watch is one of the most underdeveloped as of right now. GnW can do a lot of sweet thing but his poor shield and light weight certainly doesn't help. Thanks for another great Yoshi video !
The "Pay attention to inputs" note was helpful, I definitely would've missed stuff without it, but I think it would've been even better as like "Mashing X and Y"
Marth is the most underdeveloped. People give up fighting characters like pikachu, sheik and yoshi (and falcon sometimes) when he has incredible strategies against them that aren't utilized.
Strictly speaking, no, but he'll get it to use it faster because he doesn't suffer shield stun (except hitlag, but if he parry shield drops, he ignores that too).
Dr. Mario. His up-B cancel is incredibly fast and is very good against shield pressure. I will continue to spend years of my life to master this character and prove that he is a boss.
Ice climbers has THE most potential, their TAS stuff by desyncs, approaching with a hitbox + grab etc is sooo good! If we talk about potential, it's really hard to get through perfect powershields, the only thing that beats it would be grab, which loses to shine due to it being so slow, but approaching with a well timed desync grab + a hitbox won't lose vs shine or shield. I think G&W has some great potential, people don't really play him on his "true" level
You can double jump cancel parry to where you can smash attack or do a grounded whatever out of parry mix this up with anything you can do after a parry adapt to your opponent but only thing is its so difficult and frame perfect to jump cancel parry but once you get used to jump cancelling just add the parry inputs before it
I firmly believe both Luigi and Yoshi are part of the future meta, above at least samus, pikachu, falcon, and icies. When Luigis actually start using high level movement options, THEN we will see progress for him. aMSa is already doing this with Yoshi, and hopefully more Yoshis will appear alongside him to help push Yoshi even further.
samus has a lot of hidden potential since she has many, if not the most techniques with complicated and hard setup which reward her real good, but nobody will ever be able to consistently use all of them whenever they want
X_AshClown_X no. that's the invisible ceiling. sdi is mashing di during hitstun, which moves you to the side/up/down. you can't sdi yoshi's up air to not kill like with fox.
The most underdeveloped character I'd say is Ness. The character with the most potential is ice climbers? Maybe, watching a Wobbles combo video with all of his crazy hand-offs makes me wonder just how reliable something like that could be.
kirby definitely has hidden potential, at least against the mid tier characters. his down throw tech chases arent bad at all especially with a nice side-b hard read at the end. his aerial attacks are all great he even has a spike on the last frame of his dair
The most underdeveloped characters are Luigi and Yoshi, but Falco and Cap also have some space to improve since people usually play them for style rather than optimally. And I would also say Mewtwo and Pichu aren't viable but at least have the potential to reach lower-mid tier.
I guess the motion sensor bomb reads if someone's hurtbox is close to its hitbox, if so it hits him no matter what. Basically, it bypasses Yoshi's code of "when shielded you can't touch me". That's my guess
Remember when M2K said "Just put your controller down for 2 frames" in that one tutorial? Yeah, that's what SSBM Tutes means when he says "One frame can make a huge difference".
Luigi for sure, his nair is so fast it breaks most combos, his recovery is pretty bad i get that, but his combo game is amazing and he has good frame data, and can kill pretty well.
DK, hands down. He's far from a secret top-tier, but his grab game is second-to-none, and his punish game/kill options are drastically underestimated. While I doubt he'll ever see massive success at the top level of play, I do believe he could place a lot better than he currently does, if people were willing to overlook his negative attributes and try to learn how to perform with him.
I think that the character with the most potential is Luigi, nobody ever thinks that he can do well but as evidenced by Plup at CEO Dreamland, Luigi is really good and has hidden potential
I really believe that Roy has hidden potential. Especially in teams, he has a hard time performing consistent combos but can finish and start combos just fine.
Roy is most definitely the most underdeveloped character. No one seems to understand that you need to get in close with baiting and punishing. As for the most hidden potential, I would say Young Link because many people say that his speed and arrows are the only thing that make him different for Link and that just isn't the case. His arrows have added hitstun to them which lets him follow up. His kicking n-air and b-air deal more damage than links, and they are good approach and spacing options. Honestly, I believe that young link needs some labbing, in order to be seen as a true threat in the community.
If a game is developed and nobody out of millions of people to touch the game are "skilled enough to use" a character, maybe it's possible there are some things wrong with that character instead of it being a skill thing?
Can you show me any of the Gods playing as fox losing to a Roy? Can you even show me a skilled Roy? I thought the argument was that there wasn't any really good Roy....
Ness is underrated as all hell. He struggles with approaching, and I GET IT HIS GRAB IS TRASH, but timings involving DJC aerials make him shneaky shneaky. He combos fastfallers pretty well, but fuck Sheik, man.
Ness is cool, but the few things he does have don't push him very far. His meh ground speed and slow double jump severely limit his punish game beyond DJC juggle shenanigans. That's not even going into his abysmal neutral and recovery
Ness has a lot of things that has not been found; for exemple down grab combos into PK fire and if you master short hopping you basically double yourr attacks
G&W since he can't even L-cancel a few of his aerials or Kirby because a lot of his attacks just don't work. Yoshi, Mewtwo and Pichu. aMSa's shown us what can be done with him, Mewtwo has some really sick gameplay when done right and Pichu is quite scary if you remove his self damaging aspect.
I honestly think samus and Ice Climbers. If every samus could consistently learn her more useful bomb tech and aerial interrupts she could improve a lot (and also be way cooler - can you imagine a world where every samus main can consistently goomy zoomy?) I think Ice Climbers development has been stunted a bit because of wobbling being legal, because it incentivizes patience and hard movement reads while keeping nana as safe as possible, while discouraging more technical or risky neutral options/desyncs, and pretty much invalidating alternative grab punishes. I'm tempted to say Yoshi but I don't really know much about the character aside from the fact that parrying is very technical and Yoshis aren't consistent with it, but parrying seems less like something that needs new developments and more like Yoshi mains need to develop better reactions and matchup knowledge so they can parry more consistently. But again, I don't know much about Yoshi.
Ness or Mewtwo as least developed. Ness and Mewtwo have so much potential with DJC (especially while using it to AC moves) and their punish game is not terrible (especially against fast fallers and semi-fast fallers). The main area in need of growth is really just winning neutral against CC. There is such a large gap between good Ness/Mewtwo players and bad ones, but yet so few players in the middle. If people took the time to at least become good players (solid fundamentals) before picking up Ness or Mewtwo, they would probably be higher up on the tier list, because -- let's face it -- most low tier mains are pretty new to the game.
Most hidden potential is ice climbers - their desyncs are insanely difficult and varied, most ice climbers don't learn it as part of their neutral game which is a shame, if ice climbers were actually played as a duo instead of a character who has access to wobbling when they are together, ice climbers would be a top 4 character, potentially challenging fox for the #1 slot, it's not impossible to control both climbers individually and simultaneously, just very under developed due to the difficulty of desync consistency and lack of difficulty and reward offered by wobbling. Next up is probably link/dk, just due to lack of representation with underdeveloped neutral and punish games.
the most underdeveloped charcter is pichu because i found a glitch move where he doesn't get hurt. the character with the most hidden potential is pichu because i found a glitch move where he doesn't get hurt.
Doc has a great aerial game (b-airs for days), decent kill power, great grab game, a grounded shine, and a jank factor with his cape. Shame Shroomed dropped him.
I think Link is underdeveloped. I've been using him since the summer and I have learned a lot on my own the 2 posts on smashboards about him. I also noticed that when you throw two bombs up and they hit each other, there is no predetermined way that they would bounce off of each other. It feels random but I'm not sure. There could be another reason behind this bomb collision.
Biased, but I do believe Pichu has potential. At first glance he/she may seem like a bad character because of the way the community treats him/her as a joke/meme of a character being able to hurt itself, has increased hitstun because of his/her weight (lightest in the game), or being a clone of Pikachu. Still Pichu does have quite a few tricks up his/her sleeve. Pichu is able to bait with the self damage mechanic, has a very small hurtbox, some different attack properties and slightly faster frame data (smoother movement) can be used to his/her advantage. Though this can be said with many underrated characters that have their own tech, but each with their own opinion. As for the most underdeveloped character I would have to say Zelda, very slow and predictable for a character; Sakurai intend her to be stock finisher while Shiek to be damage racker. Not sure how viable the tactic is today (probably close to garbage), but can't say for sure since I rarely use her.
Most under-developed? Tough call, but I'd say someone like Ganondorf is a decent candidate considering how good his chain grab game is and how the best Ganons aren't killing off of grabs, and aren't option selecting ASDI down -> dash grab off of their tilts and ground moves to initiate such a chain grab. The use of his zoning tools to shift his hurtbox could also be further developed, like putting out a limb so if he trades or loses, his next position is too far away to follow up on, or even just ftilting or dsmashing so a fox coming in with drill won't combo two hits of the move together. Most hidden potential? I might give it to Zelda. She's probably the best low tier against other low tiers, probably goes even at worst against most mid tiers, and does surprisingly well against the best floaties. I also don't think any of her MUs get that bad on Yoshi's because there isn't enough room to really camp her, and the low platforms compliment her moveset and movement well. Her lightning kick, with proper spacing, isn't too hard to sweetspot, and certain tricks with vertical spacing (making sure to either be below or above the opponent and not strictly on the same vertical level, for instance, so doing a rising fullhop bair/fair; use rising fullhop to beat air to air, or to sweetspot when they're a little further away and both of you are moving towards eachother) make sweet spots that much easier. Dtilt shield pokes, combos into itself after a bit of percent, and at higher percents, kill confirms off of a poke (dtilt->dsmash or lightning kick). Aside from being one of the best reflectors at actually reflecting, Nayru's Love is a decent multi-hit in it's own right, escpecially near the ledge. Din's fire has some decent setups and there's situations is can actually be landed reliably. Zelda is also generally less comboable than Peach is. Also, most of her moveset (like, every magic attack) has transcendent priority. This isn't always a good thing, but they have decent enough disjoints for her to just beat out the opponent's moves pretty consistently. For the few places it would be nice to have regular priority (in midair vs projectiles), she has a reflector and top tier air dodge. Meanwhile, disjointed transcendent priority makes it even harder to contest her moves, and trying to force trades with her kicks is even worse than trying to force vs Peach, Ganon, or Falcon's forward air.
Any character that has single player representation at a high level is underdeveloped or has hidden potential in my opinion. So Yoshi, and ESPECIALLY Pikachu, immediately come to mind, and oddly enough I think Peach is pretty underdeveloped as Armada is her only winning representation at any real given time. There's a reason there's such a gap in play between Armada and the rest of the Peach players, they're not as developed as him. Ice climbers are actually reaching their potential now as far as I've seen, but they're being held back by players stopping their progression short and relying on wobbling. The Reason why you see the top IC's do so well, it's not their consistency in wobbling it's their setups into grabs you should be looking at, which they've developed highly. These players would still do as well without wobble simply because they've developed their game so far as to get the needed grabs to do damage. If there's any reason wobbling should be banned, it's to force the dedicated IC players to search out methods to better themselves that isn't relying on a infinite like a crutch. This is why sooooo many of them fall apart completely and just give up when they lose nana or drop wobbles. They've become reliant on it to stand. On another subject, I see a lotta ppl humping Luigi's leg but honestly I think he's kinda tapped out, he's just not that good. There's a reason you don't see major luigi representation moving the char into or in a lot of cases even REMOTELY NEAR top 8's, whereas you see Yoshi, Pikachu, and a few others get in there. Luigi is a upset char more than a char with hidden potential.
1. Characters who are underdeveloped -- literally any low tier and bottom tier. 2. Characters who have hidden potential -- since potential doesn't mean possibly high tier or could place really well, I'm gonna go with literally any low tier and bottom tier again. To answer with more specificity for each question, I'd say that Dr Mario is underdeveloped as well as Pikachu. For hidden potential (here meaning they could place really well), I'd say Dr Mario
Hey,I know that this isnt related with this video,but anyone knows how to eliminate tap jump in my list of inputs,thats because Im starting in Melee and jumping with X or Y helps you to calculate better your jumps,doing short hops etc.But sadly I always tap jump in real matches,doesnt matter how I praticed on training mode,any clues?
Mewtwo, has some shitty properties but is good against fast fallers, up b can be used for good follow ups , can recover from basically anywhere, just look at leffens mewtwo for an example
I know it not the best subject to talk about, but I would be very interest in a luigi matchup guide(specially Falco, Sheik, Jigglypuff and Peach) As Fox is pretty the most fun and "easy matchup" as chaingrab and many option are good against and Marth is mostly neutral game and don't get over marth. But falco matchup is ugly and a lot of luigi main dislike this matchup. It would be very interesting to see a mid tier matchup guide.
I think Samus is the most underdeveloped. She could be so much better if she was more developed and updated in terms of playtime. That or Falcon. I don't know honestly.
Mewtwo. He really just has a problem with dying early and gets comboed hard. Other than that, that's really the only true bad weaknesses that Mewtwo has. He truly has so much potential if just more people mained him. I Main Mewtwo myself, and I still can't believe he was considered to be the worst
Bowser for both questions, he is not good by any means, but people have no idea on How to play him at all. 99% of the people are like "he's too slow, next" and dont know anything about him
i believe fox has a lot of hidden potential. i dont think hes used enough in tournament
Brain Tabasco I lol'd
Jordan Richards :]
Um lol he's the best character, you k ow nothing about melee
Danny Herlihy :[
whoosh
As a programmer, I'm willing to bet that the lack of butt hurtbox while shielding is because it's expanded into a circle becoming the shield. The center of the circle matches where the hurtbox should be :D
yeah i thought the same thing
A couple of extra notes here :
Since Yoshi has no shieldstun (and may parry a hit), frame advantage calculations are inherently different from all other chars (ICs also have some exceptions with their double shield). What this means is that some laggy moves can STILL be punished on BLOCK by the character, even though his out of shield options are slow. For instance, if he releases shield as soon as hit, he can punish marth fsmash with release shield -> fsmash. In general, you do not want to hit his shield with most tilt or smash attacks.
This frame advantage gets even MORE in Yoshi's favour if he happened to block the move at the very beginning of his shield and got parry -> shield release, in which case Marth suffers hitlag whereas Yoshi doesn't.
So Yoshi using shield to block a move is valid in more options than many people think. STAYING in shield is where Yoshi is in a weak spot.
People tend to associate his lack of shieldstun with stronger shielddrops, but it also does benefit his grounded game.
Even then, he still has options beside lightshielding. Spotdodge/shield release is a non-trivial mixup to react to, and he can PARRY straight after either of these options, making the window tight for punishes. Besides, his roll has some unusual properties to it that may make it harder to punish for some characters (and with stricter timing windows).
Also, commentators keep forgetting about this, but : parry -> hold shield/grab/release shield/spotdodge are all options, as well as parry->shield when techchased to dodge grabs.
Missing the parry window leaves him in shield, true. But there probably are some very strong option selects for parry/no parry that haven't been labbed out or implemented yet.
Also, TY tauKhan and PerhapsMan.
Thank you
I think Yoshi is both the most underdeveloped and has the most potential. The things I’ve learned over the years about him when I mained him and the things he’s capable of are mind blowing. If only controller variances and human limitations weren’t a factor he would be even more viable.
People might think he’s overrated but his potential has barely been tapped into. Amsa is a good representation of the character but there are also so many more ways to play him and more optimal options to implement.
Doctor MARIO for sure has untapped potential
I would also agree, becuse Doc is bearly seen in any top 64 in any big tournments. And I would say Ganondorf has now more tournment representation then Doc, bucuse for the most times one of the Ganon-mains eather Kage or Bizzaro Flame makes it to top 64. Heck even N0ne uses Ganon sometimes inside top 64, to counterpick some match ups, mostley Ice Climers.
Ya man I main Falcon and doc and whenever I try to find doc videos the only person I find is shroomed who don't get me wrong is a beast at doc but I feel like I never see anyone else
@@seiuchicompositions Franz is comin through the ranks. I feel Franz has the more patient playstyle required to progress further through the meta
@@bubbymacduncan8940 Haven't been keeping up lately so I haven't heard of him, but any lower tier characters gotta play patient and methodical if they wanna keep up with characters who can just press buttons and have good hitboxes and frame data
#aMSa4Summit
I think that Luigi's an extremely underdeveloped character in tournaments, he has an amazing wavedash and awesome waveland options, I love how there's still luigi mains (such as LuigiKid).
Young Link is seriously the most under developed AND has got hidden potential for sure. His neutral game can be difficult but with correct reads and conditioning he can be an edgeguard monster, both passively and aggressively.
Captain falcon has the most hidden potential. I think yoshi is super under developed
Unfortunately falcon is a low tier so he wont beable to ever compete at a high level
lol memes are funny
Tristan Lassiter Falcon sucks and the tier list is way off cause Kirby is clearly #1
Jeeses99 lol
@@tristanlassiter6320 Wizzy won a super major lol
DOPE
Oh hey my comment is featured at 5:40
Also it's cool that we share most of the same favorite sheik players!
I think Donkey Kong has the most hidden potential as a character. he has decent movement with his dash dance, a quick and somewhat reliable back air, and his upthrow>Up-Air combos are sick because they lead into donkey punches and spiking fairs. he's the definitely the most underrated mid tier
Landon Terrell sourspot fair doesn't spike, its a meteor
He has no approaches though. If he can't dash dance grab you than what can he do to an opponent that doesn't run into his back air?
jazaniac put out some bait-bairs or bair > f-tilt/ turnaround d-tilt/ jab
Those options all lose to all stationary defensive options as well as dashdancing and wavedash back.
Also baiting people with bair isn't an approach, you're trying to bait them into approaching.
jazaniac that's true, his only real approach option is dash dance grab, but that's why I said it's only somewhat reliable because of his dash dance
I'm probably bias as fuck with this one but Yoshi has the most potential to me :p I feel Game and Watch is one of the most underdeveloped as of right now. GnW can do a lot of sweet thing but his poor shield and light weight certainly doesn't help.
Thanks for another great Yoshi video !
not to mention that for some reason you can't actually L-cancel some of GnW aerials
you didnt talk about how yoshi's shield can block grabs during the powershield and parry window
Well, less block them and more be intangible to them.
@4:50 its funny to see his default invincible/invisible state when he is still visible for a frame just because sometimes his eyes are like e_e
The "Pay attention to inputs" note was helpful, I definitely would've missed stuff without it, but I think it would've been even better as like "Mashing X and Y"
Marth is the most underdeveloped. People give up fighting characters like pikachu, sheik and yoshi (and falcon sometimes) when he has incredible strategies against them that aren't utilized.
Like what?
is Yoshi's shield drop faster than other characters?
Strictly speaking, no, but he'll get it to use it faster because he doesn't suffer shield stun (except hitlag, but if he parry shield drops, he ignores that too).
Dr. Mario. His up-B cancel is incredibly fast and is very good against shield pressure. I will continue to spend years of my life to master this character and prove that he is a boss.
G&W is underdeveloped. Mario, DK, & Young Link are underrated af
Yoshi: the most underrated character in melee and my personal favorite to watch. Amsa combos all day eryday
Ice climbers has THE most potential, their TAS stuff by desyncs, approaching with a hitbox + grab etc is sooo good! If we talk about potential, it's really hard to get through perfect powershields, the only thing that beats it would be grab, which loses to shine due to it being so slow, but approaching with a well timed desync grab + a hitbox won't lose vs shine or shield.
I think G&W has some great potential, people don't really play him on his "true" level
You can double jump cancel parry to where you can smash attack or do a grounded whatever out of parry mix this up with anything you can do after a parry adapt to your opponent but only thing is its so difficult and frame perfect to jump cancel parry but once you get used to jump cancelling just add the parry inputs before it
I firmly believe both Luigi and Yoshi are part of the future meta, above at least samus, pikachu, falcon, and icies. When Luigis actually start using high level movement options, THEN we will see progress for him. aMSa is already doing this with Yoshi, and hopefully more Yoshis will appear alongside him to help push Yoshi even further.
samus has a lot of hidden potential since she has many, if not the most techniques with complicated and hard setup which reward her real good, but nobody will ever be able to consistently use all of them whenever they want
Lol 2:19 the double invisible ceiling??
how
that was an SDI
X_AshClown_X no. that's the invisible ceiling. sdi is mashing di during hitstun, which moves you to the side/up/down. you can't sdi yoshi's up air to not kill like with fox.
X_AshClown_X also if you watch the controller for ganon it isn't touched when he gets hit
Yoshi is probably on the top of my list for untapped potential. Mewtwo, Marios, Zelda, Young Link also.
zain hands down is going to be the number one most improved player this year the man is a beast
and now im realizing the question was character not player and i say samus
The most underdeveloped character I'd say is Ness.
The character with the most potential is ice climbers? Maybe, watching a Wobbles combo video with all of his crazy hand-offs makes me wonder just how reliable something like that could be.
Great video! Where the hell is the part four of the tier list though? It's been months homie
Thank u for the info, im not a yoshi player but this will for sure help me in my next match against one
kirby definitely has hidden potential, at least against the mid tier characters. his down throw tech chases arent bad at all especially with a nice side-b hard read at the end. his aerial attacks are all great he even has a spike on the last frame of his dair
The most underdeveloped characters are Luigi and Yoshi, but Falco and Cap also have some space to improve since people usually play them for style rather than optimally. And I would also say Mewtwo and Pichu aren't viable but at least have the potential to reach lower-mid tier.
I guess the motion sensor bomb reads if someone's hurtbox is close to its hitbox, if so it hits him no matter what. Basically, it bypasses Yoshi's code of "when shielded you can't touch me". That's my guess
Remember when M2K said "Just put your controller down for 2 frames" in that one tutorial? Yeah, that's what SSBM Tutes means when he says "One frame can make a huge difference".
Luigi for sure, his nair is so fast it breaks most combos, his recovery is pretty bad i get that, but his combo game is amazing and he has good frame data, and can kill pretty well.
If 5 minutes is a long tutorial, I don't know how you would describe a 10 minute one.
DK, hands down. He's far from a secret top-tier, but his grab game is second-to-none, and his punish game/kill options are drastically underestimated. While I doubt he'll ever see massive success at the top level of play, I do believe he could place a lot better than he currently does, if people were willing to overlook his negative attributes and try to learn how to perform with him.
ALSO, MY LAST COMMENT GOT ON THE VIDEO, WOHOO!
I think that the character with the most potential is Luigi, nobody ever thinks that he can do well but as evidenced by Plup at CEO Dreamland, Luigi is really good and has hidden potential
I really believe that Roy has hidden potential. Especially in teams, he has a hard time performing consistent combos but can finish and start combos just fine.
You should do a video on the spawn and respawn locations for all controller ports
Roy is most definitely the most underdeveloped character. No one seems to understand that you need to get in close with baiting and punishing.
As for the most hidden potential, I would say Young Link because many people say that his speed and arrows are the only thing that make him different for Link and that just isn't the case. His arrows have added hitstun to them which lets him follow up. His kicking n-air and b-air deal more damage than links, and they are good approach and spacing options. Honestly, I believe that young link needs some labbing, in order to be seen as a true threat in the community.
Most underdeveloped character is Roy. He just needs someone skilled enough to use him... speaking of Roy, where is he on your personal tier list?
If a game is developed and nobody out of millions of people to touch the game are "skilled enough to use" a character, maybe it's possible there are some things wrong with that character instead of it being a skill thing?
@raincatchfire you do realize a skilled roy can beat any fox
Can you show me any of the Gods playing as fox losing to a Roy? Can you even show me a skilled Roy? I thought the argument was that there wasn't any really good Roy....
raincatchfire someone didn't get the joke
raincatchfire missed the meme
Is this channel still alive ? Love u guys hope all is good.
Ness is underrated as all hell. He struggles with approaching, and I GET IT HIS GRAB IS TRASH, but timings involving DJC aerials make him shneaky shneaky. He combos fastfallers pretty well, but fuck Sheik, man.
Ness is cool, but the few things he does have don't push him very far. His meh ground speed and slow double jump severely limit his punish game beyond DJC juggle shenanigans. That's not even going into his abysmal neutral and recovery
Ness has a lot of things that has not been found; for exemple down grab combos into PK fire and if you master short hopping you basically double yourr attacks
"vulnerable to attacks while rolling"
is he vulnerable during the entire egg rolling animation?
Luigi is the most underdeveloped. If people delved deeper into his moves and combo game, we'd have a top tier
A video on tilting, in general, would be nice. Not sure if that is too big of a topic but yeah :)
Hidden potential honestly would be yoshi. Parrying perfect every time and abusing his shield jank might make for a formidable tank
You know I honestly don't think there is any hidden potential left in this game since we already know pretty much everything about it
G&W since he can't even L-cancel a few of his aerials or Kirby because a lot of his attacks just don't work.
Yoshi, Mewtwo and Pichu. aMSa's shown us what can be done with him, Mewtwo has some really sick gameplay when done right and Pichu is quite scary if you remove his self damaging aspect.
I honestly think samus and Ice Climbers. If every samus could consistently learn her more useful bomb tech and aerial interrupts she could improve a lot (and also be way cooler - can you imagine a world where every samus main can consistently goomy zoomy?)
I think Ice Climbers development has been stunted a bit because of wobbling being legal, because it incentivizes patience and hard movement reads while keeping nana as safe as possible, while discouraging more technical or risky neutral options/desyncs, and pretty much invalidating alternative grab punishes.
I'm tempted to say Yoshi but I don't really know much about the character aside from the fact that parrying is very technical and Yoshis aren't consistent with it, but parrying seems less like something that needs new developments and more like Yoshi mains need to develop better reactions and matchup knowledge so they can parry more consistently. But again, I don't know much about Yoshi.
Ness or Mewtwo as least developed. Ness and Mewtwo have so much potential with DJC (especially while using it to AC moves) and their punish game is not terrible (especially against fast fallers and semi-fast fallers). The main area in need of growth is really just winning neutral against CC.
There is such a large gap between good Ness/Mewtwo players and bad ones, but yet so few players in the middle. If people took the time to at least become good players (solid fundamentals) before picking up Ness or Mewtwo, they would probably be higher up on the tier list, because -- let's face it -- most low tier mains are pretty new to the game.
Most hidden potential is ice climbers - their desyncs are insanely difficult and varied, most ice climbers don't learn it as part of their neutral game which is a shame, if ice climbers were actually played as a duo instead of a character who has access to wobbling when they are together, ice climbers would be a top 4 character, potentially challenging fox for the #1 slot, it's not impossible to control both climbers individually and simultaneously, just very under developed due to the difficulty of desync consistency and lack of difficulty and reward offered by wobbling.
Next up is probably link/dk, just due to lack of representation with underdeveloped neutral and punish games.
4:56 ! What ??? I didn't know that ! Never heard anyway bring this up ever .
the most underdeveloped charcter is pichu because i found a glitch move where he doesn't get hurt.
the character with the most hidden potential is pichu because i found a glitch move where he doesn't get hurt.
Doc has a great aerial game (b-airs for days), decent kill power, great grab game, a grounded shine, and a jank factor with his cape. Shame Shroomed dropped him.
Is there any development on the trigger tricking video?
Mr Game and Watch definitely has some hidden potential
We miss you SSBM Tutorials
IMO Doc has the most underdeveloped potential and there are practically no top doc players since shroomed switched to sheik.
Mewtwo and Mr. Game & Watch are pretty underdeveloped and Donkey kong has ALOT of hidden potential
I think Link is underdeveloped. I've been using him since the summer and I have learned a lot on my own the 2 posts on smashboards about him. I also noticed that when you throw two bombs up and they hit each other, there is no predetermined way that they would bounce off of each other. It feels random but I'm not sure. There could be another reason behind this bomb collision.
it's definitely yoshi for both, also i miss taukhan, he's hella legit.
Yoshi, Luigi, and Game & Watch are all underdeveloped.
Yoshi has huge potential. Game and Watch is undeveloped.
Biased, but I do believe Pichu has potential. At first glance he/she may seem like a bad character because of the way the community treats him/her as a joke/meme of a character being able to hurt itself, has increased hitstun because of his/her weight (lightest in the game), or being a clone of Pikachu. Still Pichu does have quite a few tricks up his/her sleeve. Pichu is able to bait with the self damage mechanic, has a very small hurtbox, some different attack properties and slightly faster frame data (smoother movement) can be used to his/her advantage. Though this can be said with many underrated characters that have their own tech, but each with their own opinion.
As for the most underdeveloped character I would have to say Zelda, very slow and predictable for a character; Sakurai intend her to be stock finisher while Shiek to be damage racker. Not sure how viable the tactic is today (probably close to garbage), but can't say for sure since I rarely use her.
Sonic and shrek no doubt about it
B r Ô k Ɛ n K a k u j Ǽ n ur not funny or edgy ur just annoying
Most under-developed? Tough call, but I'd say someone like Ganondorf is a decent candidate considering how good his chain grab game is and how the best Ganons aren't killing off of grabs, and aren't option selecting ASDI down -> dash grab off of their tilts and ground moves to initiate such a chain grab. The use of his zoning tools to shift his hurtbox could also be further developed, like putting out a limb so if he trades or loses, his next position is too far away to follow up on, or even just ftilting or dsmashing so a fox coming in with drill won't combo two hits of the move together.
Most hidden potential? I might give it to Zelda.
She's probably the best low tier against other low tiers, probably goes even at worst against most mid tiers, and does surprisingly well against the best floaties. I also don't think any of her MUs get that bad on Yoshi's because there isn't enough room to really camp her, and the low platforms compliment her moveset and movement well. Her lightning kick, with proper spacing, isn't too hard to sweetspot, and certain tricks with vertical spacing (making sure to either be below or above the opponent and not strictly on the same vertical level, for instance, so doing a rising fullhop bair/fair; use rising fullhop to beat air to air, or to sweetspot when they're a little further away and both of you are moving towards eachother) make sweet spots that much easier. Dtilt shield pokes, combos into itself after a bit of percent, and at higher percents, kill confirms off of a poke (dtilt->dsmash or lightning kick). Aside from being one of the best reflectors at actually reflecting, Nayru's Love is a decent multi-hit in it's own right, escpecially near the ledge. Din's fire has some decent setups and there's situations is can actually be landed reliably. Zelda is also generally less comboable than Peach is.
Also, most of her moveset (like, every magic attack) has transcendent priority. This isn't always a good thing, but they have decent enough disjoints for her to just beat out the opponent's moves pretty consistently. For the few places it would be nice to have regular priority (in midair vs projectiles), she has a reflector and top tier air dodge. Meanwhile, disjointed transcendent priority makes it even harder to contest her moves, and trying to force trades with her kicks is even worse than trying to force vs Peach, Ganon, or Falcon's forward air.
1:30 pretty sure that's mandatory for every smasher at some point
I feel like Mario has a lot of hidden potential, Game and Watch as well.
Don't forget in the trigger trick video to mention Native Controls will have to be on for 20xx or it won't work.
I think donkey kong and doc have the most hidden potential, and probably Zelda is the most underdeveloped
Well time to pickup yoshi.
What’s going on with the low tiers of the tier list?
I was curious about this but the wiki page is extremely lacking, thanks
D.K. is the most underdeveloped character imo. I think Mew2 has untapped potential.
Any character that has single player representation at a high level is underdeveloped or has hidden potential in my opinion. So Yoshi, and ESPECIALLY Pikachu, immediately come to mind, and oddly enough I think Peach is pretty underdeveloped as Armada is her only winning representation at any real given time. There's a reason there's such a gap in play between Armada and the rest of the Peach players, they're not as developed as him.
Ice climbers are actually reaching their potential now as far as I've seen, but they're being held back by players stopping their progression short and relying on wobbling. The Reason why you see the top IC's do so well, it's not their consistency in wobbling it's their setups into grabs you should be looking at, which they've developed highly. These players would still do as well without wobble simply because they've developed their game so far as to get the needed grabs to do damage.
If there's any reason wobbling should be banned, it's to force the dedicated IC players to search out methods to better themselves that isn't relying on a infinite like a crutch. This is why sooooo many of them fall apart completely and just give up when they lose nana or drop wobbles. They've become reliant on it to stand.
On another subject, I see a lotta ppl humping Luigi's leg but honestly I think he's kinda tapped out, he's just not that good. There's a reason you don't see major luigi representation moving the char into or in a lot of cases even REMOTELY NEAR top 8's, whereas you see Yoshi, Pikachu, and a few others get in there. Luigi is a upset char more than a char with hidden potential.
1. Characters who are underdeveloped -- literally any low tier and bottom tier.
2. Characters who have hidden potential -- since potential doesn't mean possibly high tier or could place really well, I'm gonna go with literally any low tier and bottom tier again.
To answer with more specificity for each question, I'd say that Dr Mario is underdeveloped as well as Pikachu. For hidden potential (here meaning they could place really well), I'd say Dr Mario
Pichu is underdeveloped for sure probably more than pikachu in fact.
Hey,I know that this isnt related with this video,but anyone knows how to eliminate tap jump in my list of inputs,thats because Im starting in Melee and jumping with X or Y helps you to calculate better your jumps,doing short hops etc.But sadly I always tap jump in real matches,doesnt matter how I praticed on training mode,any clues?
Tips** and sorry for my bad english
Roy is definately the most underrated character
Mewtwo, has some shitty properties but is good against fast fallers, up b can be used for good follow ups , can recover from basically anywhere, just look at leffens mewtwo for an example
I know it not the best subject to talk about, but I would be very interest in a luigi matchup guide(specially Falco, Sheik, Jigglypuff and Peach) As Fox is pretty the most fun and "easy matchup" as chaingrab and many option are good against and Marth is mostly neutral game and don't get over marth. But falco matchup is ugly and a lot of luigi main dislike this matchup. It would be very interesting to see a mid tier matchup guide.
I think Samus is the most underdeveloped. She could be so much better if she was more developed and updated in terms of playtime. That or Falcon. I don't know honestly.
game and watch has a lot of hidden potential imo
Luigi! Plup decided to pick him up for one tourney and made top 8.
Mewtwo. He really just has a problem with dying early and gets comboed hard.
Other than that, that's really the only true bad weaknesses that Mewtwo has.
He truly has so much potential if just more people mained him. I Main Mewtwo myself, and I still can't believe he was considered to be the worst
Definitly G&W, not enough ppl play him and he has a lot of potential.
Do a video about Captain Falcon's infinite combo
What infinite commbo?
Can we get a "Are you a yoshi player?" soon?
Bowser for both questions, he is not good by any means, but people have no idea on How to play him at all. 99% of the people are like "he's too slow, next" and dont know anything about him
Synnett Seeing people saying that Kirby os better than him annoys me actually, Kirby van only dream of a move like whirling fortress
How about that peach intermediate approach video
Mewtwo is kinda slow and weird and easy to kill but I think he has pretty good potential at some levels
Still crazy how faceroll 6-0 M2K
Roy which is why I'm maining him now
Yoshi for both of those questions
Most underdeveloped: Zelda
Most hidden potential Mewtwo.
Waiting for the tier list part 4 room
The Yoshi Bible 🙌