paul hill they say the chances of an x-ray flipping a bit in a flash cell are infinitesimal, however i have heard stories of it happening with particular x-ray machines. personally i would mask off any flash chips with lead before doing this
Dohn Joe's comment is very disturbing. Have you even watched the WHOLE video? I did. Dave is just interested in how these circuits work. I highly doubt he is trying to copy their design. Don't just assume he has bad intentions. I highly appreciate the work he has done to get all these videos and knowledge out onto the internet where anybody can access them. It's a big help for others, like me, who are interested in a future EE career.
5:45 If you have a photo editing software that supports layers, then you can put the two images on different layers of the same document. Set the upper to 50% transparency and align/adjust. Crop the document so that everything is contained in the same rectangle. Then, for printing, set the upper layer to 0% transparency and print, then to 100% and print.
Fantastic work. I would love to see more of these reverse engineering teardowns. It really shows how the design comes together and how the manufacturer thought out the production. Best video so far.
Excellent episode, EEVblog (Dave). I've seen every episode up to this point and I must say I prefer episodes like this. I enjoy soaking up your decades of experience. I realize it's a lot of work to put together an episode with this much content, but well worth the effort in my opinion.
If you have a larger board and a via disappears, you can also use a stainless steel pan scrubber as a "really big probe" to narrow down the area in which it surfaces again.
Wow, thank you soo much for your hard work here. It is really interesting and your approach is very pedagogical. Thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge. The quality of your videos is great. I'm really a big fan.
Another brill vid DJ! Don't shoot PCBs up close, use zoom from far away to eliminate paralax(?) error (getting only 4 leads of a DIP-8 pack). More rev-eng vids!
Nice video, expecially since I did some PCB reversing too, not a long time ago. Some tips: A nice (microfocus) Xray machine helps a lot. I did the same thing with photographing the PCB, but using the individual images as layers in GIMP is probably better than printing it, since switching layers is much quicker than swaping overhead foils. If you mirror the bottom layer, you can even get the vias to match.
I'm basically reverse engineering a shredder (PS-77Cs from Fellowes). It's a bit of a headache, but easy when you get used to it, it's helping me learn the multimeter a lot. I have to be careful there was a jumper hidden under a DIP too.The hardest part I found was transferring it to a software (easy EDA) for example my wiring was very messy. It would be nice to find a software that you can use which you wire everything up and then it generates the PCB and layout for you
Perhaps you can test if that is the bandwidth limiting by using a high bandwidth o-scope and measuring before and after the filters, and see if they correspond to the model you have.
Puh. Dave, nice work here (yeah, i skip the part with the Multimeter) - Perfect start in the day ^^ - Have a nice day, from austria (yeah, austria not australlia!)
Just a few days ago I was testing for solder bridges between pins of a few 0.5mm pitch ADCs that I soldered to a PCB when one of my friends told me that it could potentially damage the chips. So I measured the voltage of the continuity function of my U1273A and I got ~3.3V as well. The manual says that the test current is 0.65mA, so maybe it's not too bad. Ignorance was bliss!
Nice Video Dave, what you need here is the Gerber files, that will make things a little easier, although I doubt Rigol will release those for awhile or ever.....
Hi Dave! For even clearer shots using a tripod, try using a remote trigger or the built-in timer to release the shutter. Albeit small, pushing the shutter release button does shift the camera while it's taking the picture.
Coolkeys2009 Yeah, I want to do some more playing. Unfortunately this a loaner, so I don't want to go desoldering stuff. Have to wait for my own unit before I do that.
EEVblog I was only suggesting probing to see if a test signal was filtered as you expected and maybe checking the levels on those filter transistors when changing modes etc.
I do not think those switchable 560pf and 820pf caps have anything to do with the 50/70/100MHz bandwidth limit: the differential amplifier's output has an impedance of about 50 ohms and the trace most likely terminates into a 50 ohms input ADC. An RC filter with 25 ohms resistor and 560pf cap would have a cut-off of about 11MHz so it seems those caps are for anti-aliasing filtering at low sampling rates.
While I agree that those values don't seem to add up for BW limiting, I am not sure they are for anti aliasing either. The cap combinations give 3dB bandwidth (assuming the 25 ihms from above) at 11Mhz with C=560pF down to 4.6Mhz for both the 560pF and 820pF turned on. I would be surprised that an antialiasing filter with such a low freq would be required.
Dave, very captivating video, as always. Only forgot to show on the board which are the caps to remove filtering bandwidth)) I wonder what the difference is compared to DS1202z-E/1102z-E, no teardown for those?
In the photo editing software you could just overlay them and do your tweaks there, rather than mucking around with printing it and adjusting it that way. Just overlay one of the layers ontop of the other and put a transparency on that layer to see both sides.
Dohn Joe You wouldn't have most of the stuff you have today if it weren't for reverse engineering. The PC you have today was originally reverse engineered. Get a load of this guy folks, he must work for the MPAA, the way he spouts the usual hyperbole regarding "Intellectual Property".
To add - if you're learning electronics, reverse engineering is a really good tool to use to figure out yourself how things work. It's not about 'stealing', it's about curiosity. I know next to nothing about electronics but I find this fascinating because of the potential learning implications. If you can figure out how things work, you can start to design your own circuits that improve on the original designs in one way or another, be it cost, etc.
(at 31:40) Surely that's a VGA, not a straight diff amp.. with the gain control voltage coming through the HC4053 from some DAC somewhere. It looks like "Caprio's Quad" and the RC network emitter degeneration between the legs is for further linearization and bandwidth flattening, not bandwidth limiting. I'm suddenly interested in this due to the high cost of VGA ICs..
Hmm ... If you have a "low-end" product whose spec makes your "high-end" line start to look overpriced. Then make your low-end product easily hackable. Everybody wins. And you sell lots of low-end product without affecting the high-end.
Is it possible that what you thought is the vertical position control is actually changing the gain? I mean: The bottom tap of the EEPot that has a question mark in your drawing could actually be connected to the output of the amp and thus close the feedback loop.
Is there a reason why the trigger level on the DS1054Z has to be so high for it to work ? Anything below about 640 mV is not triggering with a triangle wave on the 1.00V range with any trigger type selected, even with adjusting trigger level offset.
Guess that they not too much worried about reverse eng its prod, even the can give you the .bin . hex. .s19 whatever files they burn in. The HARD KEY is that, no matter you do, no matter where you buy it, you CAN'T low this OBSCENE retail price, but, yeah, you can improve it fo corse. You can improve BW, still they will sell the 60 Mhz ones and as you hack those, the 100Mhz upgrade will be go so cheap that you will get lazy just to hack it. Gotta love this Rigol guys. Nice Vid as usual. you need to do some contest and give away one of those =)
Dave, if you were born today, you would be diagnosed with ADHD. Where do you get the energy. Maybe not, you have too much persistance for ADHD. You are just fantastic. I have tried my hand at reverse eng. and it is so tedious I never finish even little circuits like a pules catcher. I wish I could give you more than 1 thumbs up. Also, very very interesting and informative. I just watched EEVBLOG # 1 and what a difference.
EEVblog looking at his channel he actually seems to be much worse than just a troll, but hey, it's the internet, you've got all kinds of crazy people here.. thanks for the video and sparing me taking apart my own ds1054z :)
krawutzimon That's the best part, the internet is a fairly well-selected bunch of people; everyone can read, write, comprehend basic English necessary to interact with the machine.. In daily life and street social interactions, even those standards aren't present. Think about that for a sec and let it sink in
Hi Dave, i rebuild pinball machines as a hobby & my wife is a photographer I asked if she could help me with this and she wanted to know the light intensity (lumens) that would go through the layers, any idea?
Martin Oak In order to get the 1GSa/sec sampling rate, this is already a crazy fast rate for an ADC. It's only an 8 bit ADC. If you add/subtract a larger number in software, that doesn't give you much range on the input of the ADC for any real signal. Whereas, if you have software create an output offset voltage that can be subtracted in discrete hardware like this, that lets you use the full dynamic range of the ADC.
+sean craig Yes, but if the current they put out is too strong, they can actually make it around the circuit and back by going through other components (e.g. diodes), resulting in an effective short out of the signal.
EEVblog Same thoughts...I'd also like to see if you can change up the bandwidth. as you suspect. Great intuitive video on a reverse engineering technique.
Dmitry Ivanov i guess they already got most of the budget market covered with their scopes. seriously, i wonder how and if their competitors will react to this.. exciting times!
Dave, are you gonna stick to these green headlines on every video thumbnail? No offence, I just think it's a bit pointless to have double movie titles, one in the link and second in the picture, especially that they're pretty much the same. P.S: Isn't internet great? Despite not knowing you personally I can actually contact your very self and steal a couple of seconds of your time! Thanks for the EEVblog and getting me into electronics! Love your videos! Cheers from Poland :)
This Dave Jones character is pretty amazing. It would take me 4 lifetimes to come close to the depth of knowledge he has.
Quick solution to looking at inner layers - take a trip to a vet or dentist & get it x-rayed.
Re They charge for it - of course they are willing!
mikeselectricstuff can the x ray's do any damage
are there components you would not want to X-ray
paul hill
By doing a quick google search I found this www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001027.htm
paul hill they say the chances of an x-ray flipping a bit in a flash cell are infinitesimal, however i have heard stories of it happening with particular x-ray machines. personally i would mask off any flash chips with lead before doing this
paul hill I had my laptop x-rayed at several airports when i flew to Africa. It still works =)
Dohn Joe's comment is very disturbing. Have you even watched the WHOLE video? I did. Dave is just interested in how these circuits work. I highly doubt he is trying to copy their design. Don't just assume he has bad intentions. I highly appreciate the work he has done to get all these videos and knowledge out onto the internet where anybody can access them. It's a big help for others, like me, who are interested in a future EE career.
5:45
If you have a photo editing software that supports layers, then you can put the two images on different layers of the same document. Set the upper to 50% transparency and align/adjust. Crop the document so that everything is contained in the same rectangle.
Then, for printing, set the upper layer to 0% transparency and print, then to 100% and print.
YensR It's called G.I.M.P. and it's a free download. ;)
Aadil Shah There are other options, too.
Yes
Fantastic work. I would love to see more of these reverse engineering teardowns. It really shows how the design comes together and how the manufacturer thought out the production. Best video so far.
I see you've finally upgraded to the latest version of DaveCAD! Exciting times :D
Excellent episode, EEVblog (Dave). I've seen every episode up to this point and I must say I prefer episodes like this. I enjoy soaking up your decades of experience. I realize it's a lot of work to put together an episode with this much content, but well worth the effort in my opinion.
If you have a larger board and a via disappears, you can also use a stainless steel pan scrubber as a "really big probe" to narrow down the area in which it surfaces again.
And then, of course, once you've found the rough area, you go back in that part of the board with the normal multimeter probe.
"Always have a rubber on your pencil." Made me laugh :P
New channel from Dave...EEVBlog Afterdark ;)
Dave's Australian. If he were trying to be funny, he'd have said "franger".
Must not make pen 15 jokes, must not make pen 15 jokes, must not make pen 15 jokes....
This was the quote for my upvote.
Tobias Schenk what I can't really get it ... 😅
2nd time ive watched , theres no videos like this available anywhere! Depth of info and effort...Top marks
Wow, thank you soo much for your hard work here. It is really interesting and your approach is very pedagogical. Thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge. The quality of your videos is great. I'm really a big fan.
Samuel Vetsch Thanks, appreciate the support.
This is Chinese New technology equipment for high quality !
I don't usually rate videos, but this definitively have my like. Please, more like this.
Great video, as usual, but I was hoping we would be looking at the finished DaveScope towards the end.
Another brill vid DJ!
Don't shoot PCBs up close, use zoom from far away to eliminate paralax(?) error (getting only 4 leads of a DIP-8 pack).
More rev-eng vids!
hey dude, seen almost all of your videos now.. Just thought i'd say i'm a huge fan. Thanks for all the knowledge and all that jazz :)
Forrest Simonds You're welcome.
Nice video, expecially since I did some PCB reversing too, not a long time ago.
Some tips: A nice (microfocus) Xray machine helps a lot. I did the same thing with photographing the PCB, but using the individual images as layers in GIMP is probably better than printing it, since switching layers is much quicker than swaping overhead foils. If you mirror the bottom layer, you can even get the vias to match.
Chuck Norris should be interested in fights, not electronics..
So THIS is what Dave's been up to for the past few days. I was starting to worry!!
Excellent video! Your knowledge is truly amazing!
I like the intellectual logic. EE and proud of it.
I was going to say ab xray might help with the traces but you said it at the end . Great video
I'm basically reverse engineering a shredder (PS-77Cs from Fellowes). It's a bit of a headache, but easy when you get used to it, it's helping me learn the multimeter a lot. I have to be careful there was a jumper hidden under a DIP too.The hardest part I found was transferring it to a software (easy EDA) for example my wiring was very messy.
It would be nice to find a software that you can use which you wire everything up and then it generates the PCB and layout for you
Cool. Now I have a urge to try this with an old rc car board I have just to learn it by practice.
Andre blue Do it and post your results on the forum!
Perhaps you can test if that is the bandwidth limiting by using a high bandwidth o-scope and measuring before and after the filters, and see if they correspond to the model you have.
Thanks Dave. Really interesting. I'm not 100% in the stuff but you really give me a nice, close look in the electric engineering.
Puh. Dave, nice work here (yeah, i skip the part with the Multimeter) - Perfect start in the day ^^ - Have a nice day, from austria (yeah, austria not australlia!)
Just a few days ago I was testing for solder bridges between pins of a few 0.5mm pitch ADCs that I soldered to a PCB when one of my friends told me that it could potentially damage the chips.
So I measured the voltage of the continuity function of my U1273A and I got ~3.3V as well. The manual says that the test current is 0.65mA, so maybe it's not too bad. Ignorance was bliss!
Love this video Dave. So many great tips, I appreciate the effort!
Very interesting, nice work Dave !
Nice Video Dave, what you need here is the Gerber files, that will make things a little easier, although I doubt Rigol will release those for awhile or ever.....
Hello Dave. I think you could take some amazing macro photos from your PCBs for us to use as wallpaper.
I'm from Brazil and love your videos.
Hi Dave! For even clearer shots using a tripod, try using a remote trigger or the built-in timer to release the shutter. Albeit small, pushing the shutter release button does shift the camera while it's taking the picture.
Gerard Vogel I do use a 2 second timer
+EEVblog that not what he means, by using a remote trigger, there's no movement of picture making it easier to compare... however may be wrong :)
+Harry O'Brien yeh i think your wrong!!!
Dave, I think I love you.LOL, but seriously, thank you, these tips are genius.
Will you be putting a test signal into the scope and checking the waveforms to verify it works as you expect?
Coolkeys2009 Yeah, I want to do some more playing. Unfortunately this a loaner, so I don't want to go desoldering stuff. Have to wait for my own unit before I do that.
EEVblog I was only suggesting probing to see if a test signal was filtered as you expected and maybe checking the levels on those filter transistors when changing modes etc.
EEVblog when you get your own can you show us what comes in the box? I am considering getting one and cant find any info on that.
Cameron Webster Dave can you do an un-boxing video of the new scope.
Excellent video, thanks Dave!
good old Dave is back!
Use a mirror on your workbench to save having to peer behind what you're testing. Pro-tip from an old Electronics Australia magazine :) 15:45
I do not think those switchable 560pf and 820pf caps have anything to do with the 50/70/100MHz bandwidth limit: the differential amplifier's output has an impedance of about 50 ohms and the trace most likely terminates into a 50 ohms input ADC. An RC filter with 25 ohms resistor and 560pf cap would have a cut-off of about 11MHz so it seems those caps are for anti-aliasing filtering at low sampling rates.
While I agree that those values don't seem to add up for BW limiting, I am not sure they are for anti aliasing either. The cap combinations give 3dB bandwidth (assuming the 25 ihms from above) at 11Mhz with C=560pF down to 4.6Mhz for both the 560pF and 820pF turned on. I would be surprised that an antialiasing filter with such a low freq would be required.
Nice work Dave. Doing the Electronic Super Sleuth work is not easy.
You never cease to amaze.
Dave, very captivating video, as always. Only forgot to show on the board which are the caps to remove filtering bandwidth)) I wonder what the difference is compared to DS1202z-E/1102z-E, no teardown for those?
lol dave... "always have a rubber on your..... pencil"
Ty for the effort Dave .lets desolder the caps : )
I was reluctant to click on the video thinking "clickbait; waste of time", but I am glad I did. Very useful tips across the board (pun intended).
In the photo editing software you could just overlay them and do your tweaks there, rather than mucking around with printing it and adjusting it that way. Just overlay one of the layers ontop of the other and put a transparency on that layer to see both sides.
I needed the reverse engineering lecture but he fryed my brain at the end... Thanks from sfca
Dohn Joe You wouldn't have most of the stuff you have today if it weren't for reverse engineering. The PC you have today was originally reverse engineered. Get a load of this guy folks, he must work for the MPAA, the way he spouts the usual hyperbole regarding "Intellectual Property".
To add - if you're learning electronics, reverse engineering is a really good tool to use to figure out yourself how things work. It's not about 'stealing', it's about curiosity. I know next to nothing about electronics but I find this fascinating because of the potential learning implications. If you can figure out how things work, you can start to design your own circuits that improve on the original designs in one way or another, be it cost, etc.
(at 31:40) Surely that's a VGA, not a straight diff amp.. with the gain control voltage coming through the HC4053 from some DAC somewhere. It looks like "Caprio's Quad" and the RC network emitter degeneration between the legs is for further linearization and bandwidth flattening, not bandwidth limiting. I'm suddenly interested in this due to the high cost of VGA ICs..
Wonderful. Please do more of this ! so if I desolder this small signal transistors for filterswitching I can have full bandwith ?
For inner layers what if you heat the board and then take some pics with your thermal imaging equipment i think that could be a good solution.
Removing these caps would remove the limit?
Hmm ...
If you have a "low-end" product whose spec makes your "high-end" line start to look overpriced.
Then make your low-end product easily hackable.
Everybody wins. And you sell lots of low-end product without affecting the high-end.
Where can I download Dave CAD ? :-)
+oldmac6 I use my own personally created Mick CAD. But it its not supplied with rubbers on the pencil. Little micks everywhere !
I've heard it's cheap as paper, but the learning curve is super steep.
Is it possible that what you thought is the vertical position control is actually changing the gain? I mean: The bottom tap of the EEPot that has a question mark in your drawing could actually be connected to the output of the amp and thus close the feedback loop.
Great video, really enjoyed watching this as i have your other videos, keep em coming :)
Is there a reason why the trigger level on the DS1054Z has to be so high for it to work ? Anything below about 640 mV is not triggering with a triangle wave on the 1.00V range with any trigger type selected, even with adjusting trigger level offset.
Nice!!! Love your work!
I uploaded it a minute ago, you haven't even watched it yet!
EEVblog just smitten i bet lol
Thanks Dave, nice tee-shirt 😊
great video excited for more!
"DaveCAD" - that shit had me in stitches. :)
Guess that they not too much worried about reverse eng its prod, even the can give you the .bin . hex. .s19 whatever files they burn in. The HARD KEY is that, no matter you do, no matter where you buy it, you CAN'T low this OBSCENE retail price, but, yeah, you can improve it fo corse. You can improve BW, still they will sell the 60 Mhz ones and as you hack those, the 100Mhz upgrade will be go so cheap that you will get lazy just to hack it. Gotta love this Rigol guys. Nice Vid as usual. you need to do some contest and give away one of those =)
CAD stands for "computer-aided-design",
I recommend using this: "DaveHAD" Dave Hand Aided Desing :)
Very Usefull!! ThankYou Dave!
Really like your videos! Keep up the good work. :)
I found a Back To The Future citate in this video!! :)
Welldone!
Dave, if you were born today, you would be diagnosed with ADHD. Where do you get the energy. Maybe not, you have too much persistance for ADHD. You are just fantastic. I have tried my hand at reverse eng. and it is so tedious I never finish even little circuits like a pules catcher. I wish I could give you more than 1 thumbs up.
Also, very very interesting and informative. I just watched EEVBLOG # 1 and what a difference.
+Gary Camp You can give "two thumbs up" by donating him...;-)!
could you ground the bases of the transistors and bypass the software control for the bandwidth?
Amazing!
Dohn Joe Or maybe reverse engineering for learning's sake or just for interest?
Naoki Saito Dohn Joe is just being a troll.
EEVblog looking at his channel he actually seems to be much worse than just a troll, but hey, it's the internet, you've got all kinds of crazy people here.. thanks for the video and sparing me taking apart my own ds1054z :)
krawutzimon That's the best part, the internet is a fairly well-selected bunch of people; everyone can read, write, comprehend basic English necessary to interact with the machine.. In daily life and street social interactions, even those standards aren't present. Think about that for a sec and let it sink in
Rigol does not publish schematics or repair manuals?
Can the middle layers have components on them? 🤔
Excellent !!! Very useful video. Thx.
hello sir, I have a Rigol series ds5022mh, with the condition ch 1 it can't work, can you help me to fix it, and can share the schematic
So then desolder those four transistors on the differential output for higher bandwidth? (The ones switching capacitors in and out)
Better will be to desolder those caps only.
Doesn't Rigol sell schematics or shop manuals?
Is there a site where people share these?
I hope that we will get a review. :(
about the bandwidth limiting.
could you get more bandwidth if you remove the four caps?. at 32:24
Excellent episode !!
2022
Where's the left channel?
I think helps if the unit is not functioning as id did and we can repair them on our own. Just my two cents.
Anyone else catch the drop down menu on the search bar?
Yep :D
Can expand the memory?
Hi Dave, i rebuild pinball machines as a hobby & my wife is a photographer I asked if she could help me with this and she wanted to know the light intensity (lumens) that would go through the layers, any idea?
Dave Cad Pro, with reverse engineering editor.
Great video. Looks like you're running out of space on your hard drive!
Shouldn't the top BAV99 diode be connected to the positive rail instead of ground?
Kevy Not if the DC bias is always negative,
dave,when are you going to sort the childish mods out on your forum?
its very help full thanks a lot
I found it really surprising that the vertical positioning is done by hardware and not by software. Can somebody elaborate on that?
Martin Oak In order to get the 1GSa/sec sampling rate, this is already a crazy fast rate for an ADC. It's only an 8 bit ADC. If you add/subtract a larger number in software, that doesn't give you much range on the input of the ADC for any real signal. Whereas, if you have software create an output offset voltage that can be subtracted in discrete hardware like this, that lets you use the full dynamic range of the ADC.
I thought multimeters put out a current to measure resistance, then measure the voltage drop to calculate resistance?
+sean craig Yes, but if the current they put out is too strong, they can actually make it around the circuit and back by going through other components (e.g. diodes), resulting in an effective short out of the signal.
Yay, a video.
Hi, Dave! :D
4:26 that is genius!
Nice 😊
so, one could desolder those 4 caps and have the full bandwidth?
need to test to confirm that, but yeah.
EEVblog
Same thoughts...I'd also like to see if you can change up the bandwidth.
as you suspect.
Great intuitive video on a reverse engineering technique.
If yes, then probably rigol will increase theirs sales :D
Dmitry Ivanov i guess they already got most of the budget market covered with their scopes. seriously, i wonder how and if their competitors will react to this.. exciting times!
One problem - software restriction of minimum time on div remain.
Dave, are you gonna stick to these green headlines on every video thumbnail? No offence, I just think it's a bit pointless to have double movie titles, one in the link and second in the picture, especially that they're pretty much the same.
P.S: Isn't internet great? Despite not knowing you personally I can actually contact your very self and steal a couple of seconds of your time! Thanks for the EEVblog and getting me into electronics! Love your videos! Cheers from Poland :)
the titled thumbnails really do work. they help the video stand out in the search results. can't you afford me that little luxury?
EEVblog Just sayin', if it works for you, might as well do for me then ;-)
EEVblog It looks a little silly, but if it helps I'm for it! I'm just sad you didn't make it look like the text is on the scope screen.
D:)aveCAD is awesome!
CONNECT YOUR ESD TABLE TOP GROUND CABLE DAVE!!
thumbs up!