Check out Unicorn Overlord for FREE gsght.com/c/1lfh48 right now! Play the demo and have your progress carry over to the full launch! Thanks for watching! Sub for more! D4 Vessel of Hatred & POE 2 Are Adding WHAT? ruclips.net/video/CSHr7bskQdY/видео.html Last Epoch - Wish I knew sooner: ruclips.net/video/NKFWSGtumAQ/видео.htmlsi=LJuCnQsPqi6AjxV6
Putting titan quest in C tier, even based on today's arpg standard make me believe you did not play that game through. Not to mention, if we are speaking about greatest of all time, unless something big happened, up until 1 o2 two years ago, that title was carried by titan quest, without any debate over it. So this part was quite surprising for me. Btw jsut a small addition. I know van helsing was made into a single game later, but originally it was 1,2,3, and what you gave it ir probabaly deserving, maybe even lower, but the first one alone would be probabaly higher. Quality went down like crazy over 2 and 3. Never tried the unified version.
Man, it just feels like companies aren't making good or new games as much anymore because most of this list you could have made a year or 2 or 3 ago and the list would've looked the same. I hear poe 2 is at least going into closed beta soon.
Grim dawn is easily A tier, probably S tier. It's still being updated in 2024, has a new expansion coming out, the class combinations are insane, gearing ia great, the leveling process is fun, the story is OK for a ARPG, the tier sets bonuses are realy cool, build diversity is great. I'm still playing it in 2024 a couple hours a week, just trying new builds.
One thing you missed and didn't mention for Last Epoch is that unlike Diablo 3, it's server issues didn't prevent people from playing the game at it has an offline mode
have to make a new character to play offline if you started online. which isnt ideal in some peoples eyes but i guess you are correct if you want to gloss over that fact about starting over.
D4 is a B at absolute best. And that's only if you give the campaign (and the campaign was great) a strong weighting in the assessment. If you're like me and see a campaign in an aRPG as kind of a means to end then D4 goes into C tier pretty comfortably. Even if the campaign is replayable, its static content and there are only so many playthroughs you can do of it before it becomes a chore and you just want to move onto the mid to end-game grind.
Was just about to suggest exactly that! D4, there's no point going back after playing a season or 2. Now Grim Dawn? I find myself coming back to this one for a full replay very other year and having a great time.
As many other commenters I feel sad seeing Grim Dawn not higher in the ranking, it's my personal favourite of all times (although I haven't played LE), and the game I played the most on steam ever (600+ hours) excluding MMORPG. Even if I agree with the criticisms, I feel this game is one of the best spiritual successors of diablo 2: - an awesomely grim atmosphere both in visuals and in the atmospheric soundtrack - exceptional build diversity and itemization - complexity is still manageable, and after a while it becomes not too hard to make build yourself that are suitable for endgame - most importantly the game is clearly made with competence, love and passion Even if I agree Path of Exile should be praised for many reasons, despite my love for ARPG that is a game I could never get into: the complexity bar is to the roof, coupled with extremely annoying drop system calibrated for manual trading rather than self found (I absolutely hate that, it feels like a job). Excluding LE, Grim Dawn should be the default go to for those who like PoE but can't really get into such game for these reasons.
after the honeymoon phase Last Epoch starts to be a bit boring to me... I'm curious to see the future of this game tho because the bases are solid and it's still fun to play/experiment
@@banishedbr LE's base is not as good as D4's base. LE's honeymoon phase is over and a ton of people are starting to see the massive problems with it. A lot of people are going back to poe and d4. The monolith grind gets old super fast, their ladder mode is horrible because no one likes arenas, some of the worst balancing in the space right now with Ward being the only thing that matters in high corruption. The latest three specs; falcon, lock, runemaster, are far superior to anything else in the game. Sentinel and primalist feel so old and terrible to play compared to the newest specs. Combat isnt great with sounds and responsiveness being subpar. The Devs are super slow about bug fixes which doesnt bode well for how fast they can deliver updates/content. Like a lot of bugs that were present in the beta are still present today. And the itemization isnt great. Far too many fluff affixes. like do we really need "crit chance, melee crit chance, and spell crit chance?" no. there only needs to be just crit chance. Im not saying that LE's base is horrible, its not. But D4 has so much in place, base wise, that the fixes they keep putting out will only mean good things for its future. My main concern with LE is the devs ability to fix the problems and get content out in a timely matter.
@@banishedbr you're a "D4bad Andy" and you only played 40 minutes of a beta that max level was 25? LMAO if you only played a beta where 25 was the max level, your opinion is literally irrelevant. Both last epoch and PoE would be horrible games if you could only play them to level 25.
while Grim dawn lacks in combat I mean that punch when something is hit, the atmosphere is unmatched and makes titans like D1 and D2 a run for their money in that regard. The itemization is great, even more complex overall than the well balanced last epoch. A game for you to feel IMO. The more you play the more you get into it into that world. Its kind of a game that looks really average but feels like a high quality material. Its not a diamond its silver but really REALLY polished. PS: I played D3 in 2013 and a bunch of reaper of souls the game got really decent in fact but there is no way in hell it stands in same tier of GD. I understand many people drop it mainly due to lack of combat feeling but quality wise... both games do not share the same tier at all I'd say even D4 is kinda overrated in this tier list. IMO D4 goes down leading B tier and GD move up to A, behind the LE. Both in S tier are pretty much set in stone anyway
Grim Dawn is a solid A tier even considering it's old graphic engine. IF you don't mind about seasons and online gaming of course. Probably it would be better to make two distinct rankings between online and offline games, because they are two very different gaming experience.
Couldn't disagree more on some of your rankings, would have been interesting to know your approximate play time with each game. Thanks for sharing though, interesting to hear another point of view. In addition to your listed games I would have added (and recommend to fans of the genre) WH40k Inquisitor Martyr, Chronicon, Hellgate London, Sacred 2 and Victor Vran.
Modload for TL2 that puts all Arpg in the shade: Class pack from Drewbi, Synergy or ACE, Mapworks+, Mapwork overhaul, double skill points, extra chunky, endless dungeons, Highloot (Synergy), Powerskulls etc. Short explanation for the lan mode. Dungeons are always new generated and never the same, and much larger than in Diablo, Poe, GD :) Monsters and zombies adapt to your build, 5 stones per equipment or up to 25 per piece of equipment possible. Maps can be accessed from level 5.
The art style is a good thing, animated games just age better than realistic ones, animated games are timeless while realistic games will be stuck in their generations for eternity
@@mathewhosier9739my only concern with Grim Dawn was how bright and colorful it is. The animation stuff is not for everyone I personally prefer dark and gritty a bit more realism and less cartoon. That’s not to say I won’t play them if I had a pc I’d probably be playing Torch light infinite I’m sure it’s a great game since ARPGs are my preferred genre. Another comic book style game I’ll definitely be playing is Hades 2.
@@jcc4543 literally every single skill you cast has a huge bright green pink or red color and in every fight the whole screen is so lit up with colors you can barely see what’s going on I’m not sure what you are talking about.
I am missing Sacred 1 and 2 (Sacred gold) on this list, I had so much fun with them, that I never played Titan Quest around that time. How do you place Undecember on the Mobile spot, its Mobile after all.
wow, dungeon siege 1 & 2... i nearly forgot about those and i loved them as a kid. And i did for the little details. I remember it clear as day to zoom in and watch the arrows get stuck on the enemy. I was baffled :D
The only unforgivable sin that an ARPG can commit in my eyes is not being able to play It offline. In the short-term I commute a lot to work and other errands to do so I have a steam deck and ROG Ally so I can game on the go or while I'm on break at work. As such I am very hesitant to invest in a game that requires an internet connection when I spend a lot of my time out of the house. Long-term, what the fuck am I gonna do when I wanna play the game that I want to play but the servers are down and now I can't access it despite having owned it and bought it? I could forgive most, if not all, of the other nonsense associated with D4 if I was able to play It offline. The only game I give something of a pass on with that regard is Path of Exile and that's literally only because it's a free to play Game. I genuinely hope that Last Epoch grows and is able to fully rival both path of exile and Diablo 4. it is fully playable offline and I am beyond grateful for that. Literally one of my only complaints about last epoch is that I cannot use the cosmetics that I have bought with my own money on my offline character.
That hits home for me. The single best news I've gotten for a game I play in years was Inquisitor Martyr getting proper offline play. Now I'll get to play it whenever I want years down the line.
Making it easier and cheaper to respec in Path of Exile would help new players to experiment with builds more instead of being required to follow a build guide or having to delete your character and make a new one. That is one thing I liked about Diablo 3 and 4, how easy it was to respec.
Personal top 3 in order: PoE, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn Imo you overrate all the DIablos. Honorary mention: Torchlight 2 but ONLY with/due to the SynergiesMOD. This mod is basically a total conversion and an entire new game by itself, it is free (beyond having to pay for Torchlight 2) and while it's not balanced the sheer diversity (like 60 classes or whatever?) makes it fun to endlessly try out new things.
Gotta agree an that one. Not a big fan of Grim Dawn and definitely a fan of Diablo 1 and 2, but if we rate it at todays standards it just doesn't fit. For me, D1 would probably be C tier, D2 B tier and D4 D tier. U just can't compare PoE or Last Epoch to todays D2 experience. (maybe D4 and D1 on the same level, but I'd rather play D1 instead of D4 honestly...)
Grim Dawn should be in the A tier and diablo 4 should be in the b tier. IMO. If we are counting when the games came out my list would look like this. 1. Diablo 2 2. Titan's Quest (I put more time in this one than any other ARPG) (Last Epoch is going to pass it though) 3. Last Epoch 4 Grim Dawn 5 Diablo 4 6 Diablo 3 Sadly I missed out on Path of Exile for some reason so I can't rate it, and the others listed I never played. If we are going to rate the games as playing them today it would be this list 1. Last Epoch ( I did spend over a year in the beta) 2 Titan's Quest 3 Grim Dawn 4 Diablo 2 55 Diablo 4 56 Diablo 3 We were telling the Dev's of Last Epoch over a year ago about how the game broke down when a bunch of people were switching zones and they blew us off as no big deal.
Why do you feel that you missed out on PoE? I only just began playing it last year while in the "d4 waiting room", and it became my favorite game of all-time overnight. Give it a shot if you've got a free weekend! Highly recommend following Pohx's guide for Righteous Fire. It served me well in my first league.
@@_Baleful I feel that I missed out on PoE because we are so close to the launch of PoE-2, with work and a few other games I've bought I'm just going to wait until PoE-2 releases and jump on board day one and hope I didn't need to play PoE to understand it. From what i've read it takes a very long time to play through PoE becuse it is a very large game. Thanks for the comment.
Sacred and Sacred 2 both great games IMO seem to be completely forgotten. Undecember is a fantastic game just destroyed by monetization which also kills the enjoyment of Lost Ark. Undecember just bothers me because it could be so much more. Why companies don't copy the POE model is completely beyond me. Gamers will spend a fortune supporting a game that they love and is not pay to win. One note: I think Last Epoch should be S Tier and the reason I would say that is that AT RELEASE it is probably the best ARPG ever. POE2 will likely take that crown. On Diablo 3 I was an alpha tester and in alpha D3 was actually a fantastic game that was just D2 but better and had some true depth and really interesting game systems. In beta basically all they did is just strip system after system completely out literally because Blizzard thought it important that "my Grandmother can pick it up and understand it
I was looking for this comment. I grew up playing sacred ,i started and ended it over 20 times,never got bored ,even now i play sometimes. That game had something special for me, from the items to spels and god the music and sounds in that game... truly a masterpiece. For me it will always be number 1. I really like i still find people that liked it!
Online-required games would automatically be in the lowest tier for me. I don't want someone else controlling when I can play, and when the game goes offline permanently.
I couldnt empathize more on your D4 wall comment halfway into the vid. I ran a druid in S2 from 0-93 and put in 185 hours. I had so much fun, I didnt understand why everyone didnt like the game. Then once I maxed out all my seasonal events I realized that the only content left was repeatedly running one of a couple flavor of the month basic-bitch bosses and I lost all incentive to play. Havent picked it up since.
Same bro i went home to poe and dedicated twice the time I did before because I felt I had betrayed the king ha ha ha ended up with my first head hunter
Aah Titan Quest! Played it and its expansion Immortal Throne so much. One of the most unique features as you said, was that you could actually spot random enemies wielding a big glowy unique sword and you knew it would be yours. I've been missing that in every other arpg. But D1 on the same tier as Grim Dawn? Ouch. Also, played D2 more than anything, thousands of hours, but to put it in to S-tier in 2024.. I know you need to give credit to the Diablos for all the work they've done, but maybe not like this. Great video, thanks for making it.
Loving LE but I really LOL'd when I saw the keys that 1) took inventory space and 2) didn't stack. Definitely one of the many things that could use some polish and completion (he story for example). So I guess that balances out the many stash tabs :) That being said, it does so many things right that are core to the ARPG experience. As mentioned in the video, you can tell that ARPG gamers/enjoyers are behind the wheel. Having one more great option in the genre is a win for everyone. I'm always hoping D4 will get better, I hope some of them tried out LE too. They're getting there with the seasons (eventually) and it's something LE still doesn't really have, but the core game needs a lot more.
@@danielemarrocu2717 could just add it to 'avoid' game section, making more content for the video, also brings in perspectives of various games made in this genre, and why some had success, and some failed.
@@danielemarrocu2717 calling it bad is BS. It's not a bad game at all. Its just clearly a budget game and the game itself works fine and has fun combat. It's not meant to compete with the big competitors
@@HeavyMetalGamingHD i can name a ton of games that are on extremely low budgets, but that are fun, chaosbane has pretty bad gameplay, pretty bad itemization and in the final its boring, every now and then i try to reinstall it a play it because i'm extremely fond of the arpg genre, and that game simplyh makes me uninstall it after few minutes of play, its even worse than torchlight 3.
Titan Quest definitely deserved a higher rating than what you gave it, because just as PoE was inspired by D2, Grim Dawn was inspired by Titan Quest. I'd even go as far as to say that PoE was inspired by Titan Quest as well. I don't think the PoE devs ever admitted to it but if you play Titan Quest you will see hints to this like the classless (tabula rasa) nature of Titan Quest characters and the fact that its skilltrees and masteries are all echoed in PoE's classes and ascendancies. There are even parallels in the main story of both games as well like the threat of Typhon (a trapped god) just like the threat of Kitava (another trapped god) and the same themes of primordial gods returning.
Grim Dawn is actually developed by former Iron Lore devs (the studio who made Titan Quest) It's why the customization system and gameplay is so similar. It even uses the same engine as Titan Quest.
i love the intro lol, well done. great video, too, solid points.. i hope they polish up the controller for last epoch, i really want to play it but my wrists hurt and can't play for very long.
I hope so too, its definitely a game I'd love to see as many people be able to play as possible. I'm hoping it's ideas rub off on other games in the genre!
After playing so many hours of D3, I find it so hard to enjoy any other ARPGs because of how slow they all feel. I tried playing Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, and Torchlight 2 recently and it felt like I was moving in molasses just to kill 2 enemies every 30 seconds. Super pumped that D4 is bringing back an equivalent to the Rift gameplay loop from D3, I love the feeling of optimizing and speedrunning them!
I was always under the impression that Torchlight 1 was influenced by Fate. It was also kid friendly graphics, with just 1 single dungeon that just kept going deeper and deeper.
Both Torchlight and Fate were inspired by D1. Torchlight was made by the same guys that invented/created D1. The creator of Fate said he wanted Fate to be a more casual Diablo . Crazy the impact Diablo had on the industry
@@gameburn178 that game was a big part of my childhood. Getting the god tier legendary item max enchanted and then giving it as an heirloom. Such a phenomenal system
I hope next year your next ARPG tier list is a little more comprehensive. You didn't mention the Sacred, Dungeon Siege, Fate, or Divinity series. The pet system in Torchlight was almost directly lifted from Fate. Besides that and putting the diablo games a bit too high (I say this as someone who thinks of Diablo 1 as a top 5 favorite of all time game), I generally agree with the list.
Currently I would still swap D3 and D4, but that might already change with the next season, but you also weight the campaigns quite heavily and d4 has easily the best campaign in the genre and that by a substantial margin to the competitors.
I played 20 hours blind into poe and yes, my build fell off against gold color monsters in act 4 lmao. I was very discouraged because again yeah, i probably fked up that passive node tree greatly. But damn, just your description of praise for poe made me want to try again following a build guide. I never really thought of it in the way of GGGs strategy to have players simply try a single different build each league.. its actually intriguing. Thanks for the great video!
Nice list, thanks for the video. But imho Titan Quest is very underrated (here)! I've played TQ back in 2006, mostly with a friend in LAN. Countless times we've played kinda through the whole night, nebulized the room with cigarette smoke, drinking beer, eating pizza and chips, slaying Sartyrs, Gorgons, Telkines and all those other monsters. Guess it wasn't the healthiest time of my life, but definately one of the best! I've bought Diablo I along with my first own PC in 1997, so it will always be one of my fav games. The atmosphere was so good, dark, scary (even the SOUNDTRACK - my god i can still hear it... and "Ah, fresh meat!" lol). But yes, graphics, controls etc. are very outdated today. I've also played and love(d) Diablo II when it came out. But back then, I'm pretty sure I've spent far more hours in TQ than in D1 and D2 combined. Nowerdays, Diablo II Resurrected and Diablo III have topped the playtime. My list would look like this: S-Tier: Diablo II Resurrected, Titan Quest A-Tier: Diablo III, Last Epoch (haven't played much yet, but looks very promising - perhaps S-Tier soon) B-Tier: Diablo I, Path of Exile (could be better, but too complex for my taste) C-Tier: Grim Dawn, Torchlight, Torchlight II, Van Helsing D-Tier: Diablo IV (i HOPE and think it will get much better with the changes that will come with season 4!), Wolcen F-Tier: Diablo Immortal (Mobile ARPG? Nah. Pay2Win? Naaaaah!!!) Didn't play Torchlight III and Infinite, guess they go in D or F Tier.
I've played all of these except Immortal. I play arpgs with a big group of friends on Discord. I don't know a single person who has said Immortal is a bad arpg. In fact, they all say it's good, but that it shouldn't exist and is predatory.
I don't enjoy the gearing of POE, trying to keep up resistances and finding gear with the right socket colors and links just gets too annoying. And you get punished in late game if you don't follow a build guide or have every aspect of the game memorized. You seem to get punished for trying to experiment with your own builds.
This list really needed "SACRED 1" as one of them, it could fit on the C category or even D, but, for me, this game was as good as Diablo 1 at least. The problem with Sacred 1 was the fact that it wasnt procedural, once you end it you will never play it again, but man, the map was big. Now that it think it, grim dawn map was gigantic too, if im not wrong, i mean, with the DLCs.
the reviews were good to listen to but when you said their ratings, i sort of got confused as some of them have a bad or good review but then you rate it higher or lower that what you said, i dont really get that logic, unless am missing something you saying nothing but praise and saying it has little cons, then rating it sort of half way, it seems a bit off on how you rated these but thanks for the reviews for them.
@@LuckyGhost The Reviews were fine, got me interested in some of them, its more you said good things about one or two of them with little cons and still put them Lower than it sounds, like the Grim Dawn, you seem to really like it, even said it was very highly rated and has more updates incoming, very little cons, sounded like it should be in either A, or if the cons wasn't there, S tier, while Diablo 4, as far as I heard it was good but very lack-luster so to say, more because it was draining to play and the con of not being able to play the best part, the story for each Season, It sounded to me that it would of been in either B or C more because it had a good story but the drain you seem to not like made it not worth playing after awhile so I felt a little confused, I know its your opinion but I just thought your rating and opinion never really matched up, You did this to a few of them, was the steam player count also put under consideration to the rating or am I missing something? anyways, I still liked the reviews you did for them, thank you.
Ah, Wolcen. Played the demo and was totally hyped for it. The full release happened and everything that made it unique and interesting went out the window and it was no longer the same game. Still don't know what happened.
I forgot who did it, someone did a comparison. And it was cheaper to get a degree from Harvard than it was to lvl your character from 0 to completely maxed out in Diablo immortal
My favourite part of D3 is the option to play several builds in a season. There are so many fun builds:) The challenge is to do grift 150 with several builds. That`s not easy, even for no lifers.
its weird that the only reason i even got exposed to arpg's at all was because my older cousin had diablo 1 & 2 (ultimate compendium & battlechest editions) and he spent every waking hour of his life playing that game while he was in highschool (i was in elementary school at the time) and i spent a good amount of my time at his place watching him play (at least until he started getting creepy with me and his sister...), i never got to play it myself but i was enamored by the game so much that when diablo 3 came out, i bought it without question (big mistake). i wish i could go back and play those games when i had the chance since theyre one of the few games i never got to play, since then i've played almost every game that came out since the 2000s onwards and have admittedly been burned out by most of them, not for being grindy (since im a loot goblin and grind gremlin) but for being unfun and hopelessly pay to win. but the games i grew up with like diablo 2 and ragnarok online have a very special place in my heart. even if i never got a chance to play the former.
"Warhammer 40,000: Inquisitor - Martyr" has good gameplay and good story. You should play it at least once but its worth playing on other classes. Think of it as a offline ARPG. Many classes do feel different which is very different.
One thing I'll give Martyr credit on (with it's own baked in demerit) is how the Admech background enters the plot. It's a bold move to have a short prologue and essentially say "So the entire original plot up to this point already happened. Your picking up where someone else left off." But I do pity that you can't do the Martyr campaign with that background... Yet I can understand why. That little bit of Admech only is full of 'this would have required a lot of plot stuff to get Admech help. But your Admech so you just get on with it.' and I love that.
Sacred 1 & 2 imo should be here. As for newer arpg a game like Warhammer 40k inquisitor deserves mention. While more of a hybrid (arpg/mmo) i think Lost Ark is a good enough title to also get a spot.
If I don't remember wrong, D4 stash limits came / comes (if still the case) from the fact that your client pre-loads all the items every player in your layer has, even in their stash.
Wolcen is actually pretty good to play once or twice. It has quite a few interesting ideas and feels really modern compared to some other games. It was basically unlucky that bugs ruined the experience and devs couldn’t manage to fix everything. Now it’s totally playable and is a little gem of a game that every ARPG fan should try.
Outside of uniques. I don’t see the problem with the stashes in D4 ig I play different or something. But I have plenty of stash space for the items that will actually be used for other characters
Love the tier list, but I think torchlight infinite is highly underrated. The crafting is so much fun, and does so many things right. I don't need the monetization at all, just like POE.
i just think its funny when many people complain about how d4 only had 4 stash tabs (which isnt enough for sure) and then they go on to talk about last epoch and how it has 100+ stash tabs and how its this amazing accomplishment that changes the game and is a huge plus..... stop to think about this. why do you need 100+ stash tabs? what are you filling them up with? items to check for meta?... its funny cuz when people argue that, all i can think of is a player sorthing trhough 100 stash tabs for a specific item. the problem isnt stash tabs at that point, its itemization. funny cuz everyone online acts so smart but has 0 capability to think about things critically
Your comment has this impressive ability to drip with condescension while also outing you as someone who doesn't have a lot of experience in arpgs. Bold combination to shoot for
@@LuckyGhost I don't agree at all. He is correct in stating that if you need that many stash tabs then the itemization is whack. I have played aRPGs, regular RPGs, and MMORPGs since before Diablo 1. More itemization options does not mean the game is better. It causes too much useless garbage.
Hello dude. Thanks for the vid. You ve gained a new (Bell-on) Subber! I have a question for you. HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED CHRONICON? Because that's the stuff!
I may be a bit weird, but I would put Titan Quest on par with Grim Dawn. Sure, Grim Dawn made a lot of things better, but I find it confusing in its maps, which are very complicated and oversized for no particular benefit. The weirdest thing is, I was pulled in by Grim Dawn first, but now, I find more fun in titan Quest. I hope Titan quest II will be everything good and more from both its ancestors.
I wonder where you would put Warhammer 40,000: Inquisitor - Martyr on that tier list. I have enjoyed the campaign and I have enjoyed playing it, but after finish it, I never had a desire to play endgame content nor play it again.
Titan Quest should definitely be B tier, maybe even A tier. It was an awesome game that melted my laptop back then. I tried so hard to get into PoE, played it a bunch pre-launch and for a while after with my son. But yeah, just trying to make a build was more hard-mode than I wanted to deal with. Maybe PoE 2 will suck me in. I actually hope it does.
Tbh i wasnt going to comment but the blasphemy that is the D4 and Grim Dawn relative rating was just too much. Grim dawn, minus the asthetics being inferior, is superior to d4 in every other way. If d4 has a great campaign then grim dawns is at least as good. It seems to me that the pretty lights d4 gave us has blinded most ppl into thinking it had a good campaign. Campaign aside, d4 has the worst itemization in its own series much less compared to grim dawn or last epoch. Last epoch got critiqued for lack of endgame....d4 endgame? Im not going to go through every single point but d4 getting an A rating with grim dawm at B is just blasphemy.
Ight... This is some cope... As someone that's played Grim dawn for about 200 hours, and has played D4 for roughly 400... There is no comparison of the combat and overal feel of the game. If you wanna get into comparing progression systems, there is an argument to be made, but the actual gameplay is SUBSTANTIALLY better in almost every aspect.
@@Ethan_Coble im going to assume when you say 'gameplay' you are referring to the feeling of the game as opposed to the reason ppl play these types of games. so yes grim dawn does not have the better gameplay feel for the same reason it is aesthetically inferior....its on a much much much older game engine. if you are talking about what you are actually doing in the game eg chasing loot, exploring the world, revealing secrets fighting bosses etc d4 has the most shallow gameplay even compared to d3. the fact that there is a debate between a 2024 game and 2016 game says a lot. there really is no defending the current product that is d4....the potential was there and they chose to scam you instead of give you a game you can play for years.
While at talking about old games, I'm surprised you completely missed the Sacred series, especially Sacred Gold and Sacred 2. These, IMHO, were better than Titan quest for instance and absolutely better than Van Helsing or most of the Torchlight series.
My first game ever was D2 not long after its launch when I moved from the middle of nowhere, off the grid life to near a large city that had both electricity and the internet. I was already 50 years old and played on the Asian servers which was riddled with farming bots. In between D2 & 3 I also played Sacrifice which was bloody fantastic and so unique but so low budget it couldn't find the funds to expand to an online game. And of course, Titan Quest which I loved. Then came D3, what a bloody mess! I spent more time in that stupid auction house than actually playing the game and there were so many cheat bots selling gear for such ridiculous amounts of gold that no legit player could ever hope to find in game. I almost gave up but D3 did start to improve exponentially and the later seasons were really good as we waited for D4. I had already decided that at 75 years old I wasn't going to play D4 so instead bought D2res to relive those fun times. Meantime my daughter gifted me D4 which I have installed but never actually started as I watch the likes of Wudijo, Raxx, etc. I'll continue to wait. Last Epoch does sound like a better choice for a very old lady such as I.😉
Great video! Wondering if you ever played Hero Siege? It was really fun until they recently "updated" it to 2.0. Put a solid 150hrs into it, then took a break; came back to it recentlyand found it nearly unplayable.
My favorite ARPGs are Achilles legends untold, baldurs gate dark alliance 2, cat quest 2, diablo 3 eternal collection, killsquad, Minecraft dungeons, nobody saves the world, the ascent, the incredible adventures of van helsing 1, 2 and 3, torchlight 2, victor vran overkill edition, warhammer 40k inquisitor martyr, warhammer chaosbane slayer edition, welcome to paradize and wolcen lords of mayhem
To be fair, Diablo 2 is only still that good today thanks to this wonderful Resurrected remaster. Diablo 2 Original was most likely my most replayed game back in the day, but today I wouldn't touch it again with its original graphics and gameplay. However, Diablo 2 Resurrected is simply one hell of a remaster, that's how you do it (exception: f-keys for skills, I mean seriously?) My favourites are two other games: Torchlight 2 - This is the one game in that genre that I return back to frequently, because the core gameplay is just the pure "essence" of what a ARPG should be like Grim Dawn - Very solid game by any means, but the real standout here is the physics engine and I just really like to smash enemies all over the screen XD A suggestion: Sacred 1-3 could also be mentioned. I don't know if this games developed in Germany were somehow popular elsewhere but at least Sacred One (2004) was really great, it had a huge, rich Open world before Open worlds even were a thing... Sadly I could never get into Sacred 2 and the third one was just some abysmal roguelike bs.
I really find the modern “season” loops, boring. I want to invest in, and develop my character long term. The reverse, creates an indifference to your character, at least in my mind. Plus you aim to get max lvl as fast as possible, begging the question, why have leveling at all? Anyway good vid as always
In Path of Exile, you have the option to do that. The standard league, is where all your characters are, they don't lose any levels nor items. You can continue playing your character there forever.
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Check out Unicorn Overlord for FREE gsght.com/c/1lfh48 right now! Play the demo and have your progress carry over to the full launch!
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D4 Vessel of Hatred & POE 2 Are Adding WHAT? ruclips.net/video/CSHr7bskQdY/видео.html
Last Epoch - Wish I knew sooner: ruclips.net/video/NKFWSGtumAQ/видео.htmlsi=LJuCnQsPqi6AjxV6
Putting titan quest in C tier, even based on today's arpg standard make me believe you did not play that game through. Not to mention, if we are speaking about greatest of all time, unless something big happened, up until 1 o2 two years ago, that title was carried by titan quest, without any debate over it. So this part was quite surprising for me.
Btw jsut a small addition. I know van helsing was made into a single game later, but originally it was 1,2,3, and what you gave it ir probabaly deserving, maybe even lower, but the first one alone would be probabaly higher. Quality went down like crazy over 2 and 3. Never tried the unified version.
Def although I couldnt understand PoE and complication but I do love it and now I play Last Epoch too
Man, it just feels like companies aren't making good or new games as much anymore because most of this list you could have made a year or 2 or 3 ago and the list would've looked the same. I hear poe 2 is at least going into closed beta soon.
Putting Grim Dawn in B tier is a sin.
If it had multiplayer like seasons and stuff, itd prolly be higher im not gonna lie, grim dawn is too casual
It’s easily in my top 3 with d2 and last epoch.
It's by FAR my favorite ARPG. I have the most hours in it than any other game I've ever played in any genre.
Grim dawn is easily A tier, probably S tier. It's still being updated in 2024, has a new expansion coming out, the class combinations are insane, gearing ia great, the leveling process is fun, the story is OK for a ARPG, the tier sets bonuses are realy cool, build diversity is great. I'm still playing it in 2024 a couple hours a week, just trying new builds.
Yep grim dawn is really something else.....for me it's one of the best arpgs ever made.....
One thing you missed and didn't mention for Last Epoch is that unlike Diablo 3, it's server issues didn't prevent people from playing the game at it has an offline mode
It didn't stop people from complaining that they couldn't play the game at all as if it didn't have an offline mode though!
have to make a new character to play offline if you started online. which isnt ideal in some peoples eyes but i guess you are correct if you want to gloss over that fact about starting over.
@@bizzy4392 that has been the case with ARPGs since at least Diablo 2. Offline and online characters are usually separate in ARPGs
True but alais, you cant swap online and offline with the same character. They're trapped in that mode you made them in, terrible choice.
@@HyouVizer not really, people would mod their characters in offline then go back online with it, too many ways already to mod offline LE characters.
Grim Dawn is S+. Goated.
Someone mentioned swapping Diablo 4 and Grim Dawn, and I'd personally agree. Everything else seems solid.
D4 is a B at absolute best. And that's only if you give the campaign (and the campaign was great) a strong weighting in the assessment. If you're like me and see a campaign in an aRPG as kind of a means to end then D4 goes into C tier pretty comfortably.
Even if the campaign is replayable, its static content and there are only so many playthroughs you can do of it before it becomes a chore and you just want to move onto the mid to end-game grind.
Was just about to suggest exactly that!
D4, there's no point going back after playing a season or 2.
Now Grim Dawn?
I find myself coming back to this one for a full replay very other year and having a great time.
PoE needs to drop a tier as well, it has only gotten worse with age.
the author is clearly biased, or incompetent in the arpg genre, sorry but its just how it is.
@@Sphynx00 ive never seen someone so wrong before, aint no way poe is on the same level as D4. POE is the best arpg out now by far.
As many other commenters I feel sad seeing Grim Dawn not higher in the ranking, it's my personal favourite of all times (although I haven't played LE), and the game I played the most on steam ever (600+ hours) excluding MMORPG.
Even if I agree with the criticisms, I feel this game is one of the best spiritual successors of diablo 2:
- an awesomely grim atmosphere both in visuals and in the atmospheric soundtrack
- exceptional build diversity and itemization
- complexity is still manageable, and after a while it becomes not too hard to make build yourself that are suitable for endgame
- most importantly the game is clearly made with competence, love and passion
Even if I agree Path of Exile should be praised for many reasons, despite my love for ARPG that is a game I could never get into: the complexity bar is to the roof, coupled with extremely annoying drop system calibrated for manual trading rather than self found (I absolutely hate that, it feels like a job). Excluding LE, Grim Dawn should be the default go to for those who like PoE but can't really get into such game for these reasons.
Grim Dawn will always be the the gold standard. Last Epoch has been the closest thing to actually compete with it
after the honeymoon phase Last Epoch starts to be a bit boring to me... I'm curious to see the future of this game tho because the bases are solid and it's still fun to play/experiment
@@MaitreMechant they have a base plenty to expand on it, a much better base than d3 and d4 so future we hopes.
@@banishedbr LE's base is not as good as D4's base. LE's honeymoon phase is over and a ton of people are starting to see the massive problems with it. A lot of people are going back to poe and d4. The monolith grind gets old super fast, their ladder mode is horrible because no one likes arenas, some of the worst balancing in the space right now with Ward being the only thing that matters in high corruption. The latest three specs; falcon, lock, runemaster, are far superior to anything else in the game. Sentinel and primalist feel so old and terrible to play compared to the newest specs. Combat isnt great with sounds and responsiveness being subpar. The Devs are super slow about bug fixes which doesnt bode well for how fast they can deliver updates/content. Like a lot of bugs that were present in the beta are still present today. And the itemization isnt great. Far too many fluff affixes. like do we really need "crit chance, melee crit chance, and spell crit chance?" no. there only needs to be just crit chance.
Im not saying that LE's base is horrible, its not. But D4 has so much in place, base wise, that the fixes they keep putting out will only mean good things for its future. My main concern with LE is the devs ability to fix the problems and get content out in a timely matter.
@@deadract seeing as i tried 40min of free d4bad beta and never look back i have to disagree.
@@banishedbr you're a "D4bad Andy" and you only played 40 minutes of a beta that max level was 25? LMAO
if you only played a beta where 25 was the max level, your opinion is literally irrelevant.
Both last epoch and PoE would be horrible games if you could only play them to level 25.
while Grim dawn lacks in combat I mean that punch when something is hit, the atmosphere is unmatched and makes titans like D1 and D2 a run for their money in that regard. The itemization is great, even more complex overall than the well balanced last epoch. A game for you to feel IMO. The more you play the more you get into it into that world. Its kind of a game that looks really average but feels like a high quality material. Its not a diamond its silver but really REALLY polished.
PS: I played D3 in 2013 and a bunch of reaper of souls the game got really decent in fact but there is no way in hell it stands in same tier of GD. I understand many people drop it mainly due to lack of combat feeling but quality wise... both games do not share the same tier at all
I'd say even D4 is kinda overrated in this tier list. IMO D4 goes down leading B tier and GD move up to A, behind the LE. Both in S tier are pretty much set in stone anyway
One ARPG game like Diablo, that i love when i was a younger, is Sacred 2, a great game today is kind of old, if someone one to try this
Grim Dawn is a solid A tier even considering it's old graphic engine. IF you don't mind about seasons and online gaming of course. Probably it would be better to make two distinct rankings between online and offline games, because they are two very different gaming experience.
F tier
Couldn't disagree more on some of your rankings, would have been interesting to know your approximate play time with each game. Thanks for sharing though, interesting to hear another point of view. In addition to your listed games I would have added (and recommend to fans of the genre) WH40k Inquisitor Martyr, Chronicon, Hellgate London, Sacred 2 and Victor Vran.
Only one question, where do Dungeon Siege 1 and 2 fit in?
My first ARPG, all other ARPGs have just been attempts to fill that void 🥲
Above all of the tiers
Modload for TL2 that puts all Arpg in the shade: Class pack from Drewbi, Synergy or ACE, Mapworks+, Mapwork overhaul, double skill points, extra chunky, endless dungeons, Highloot (Synergy), Powerskulls etc. Short explanation for the lan mode. Dungeons are always new generated and never the same, and much larger than in Diablo, Poe, GD :) Monsters and zombies adapt to your build, 5 stones per equipment or up to 25 per piece of equipment possible. Maps can be accessed from level 5.
I feel like Torchlight 2 should be ranked higher. The art style is highly subjective but the core game is fantastic.
The art style is a good thing, animated games just age better than realistic ones, animated games are timeless while realistic games will be stuck in their generations for eternity
@@mathewhosier9739my only concern with Grim Dawn was how bright and colorful it is. The animation stuff is not for everyone I personally prefer dark and gritty a bit more realism and less cartoon. That’s not to say I won’t play them if I had a pc I’d probably be playing Torch light infinite I’m sure it’s a great game since ARPGs are my preferred genre. Another comic book style game I’ll definitely be playing is Hades 2.
@@jf2849when is grim dawn bright and colorful it's not Diablo 3
@@jcc4543 literally every single skill you cast has a huge bright green pink or red color and in every fight the whole screen is so lit up with colors you can barely see what’s going on I’m not sure what you are talking about.
I am missing Sacred 1 and 2 (Sacred gold) on this list, I had so much fun with them, that I never played Titan Quest around that time. How do you place Undecember on the Mobile spot, its Mobile after all.
Grim dawn was my first ARPG, I was hooked!
Nothing hits like the first!
What no Dungeon Siege 1 & 2? What about Sacred series? Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 1 &2?
I loved the Sacred games. Very buggy though. Would be great if they had continued.
Good on ya bro sacred was awesome mate xbox 360 at its best and ps3 I hate tier list kids
wow, dungeon siege 1 & 2... i nearly forgot about those and i loved them as a kid. And i did for the little details. I remember it clear as day to zoom in and watch the arrows get stuck on the enemy. I was baffled :D
They even made a Dungeon Siege movie. Jason Statham first starring role.
What about Victor Vran (although it can’t really compare to the others)?
The only unforgivable sin that an ARPG can commit in my eyes is not being able to play It offline. In the short-term I commute a lot to work and other errands to do so I have a steam deck and ROG Ally so I can game on the go or while I'm on break at work. As such I am very hesitant to invest in a game that requires an internet connection when I spend a lot of my time out of the house. Long-term, what the fuck am I gonna do when I wanna play the game that I want to play but the servers are down and now I can't access it despite having owned it and bought it?
I could forgive most, if not all, of the other nonsense associated with D4 if I was able to play It offline. The only game I give something of a pass on with that regard is Path of Exile and that's literally only because it's a free to play Game.
I genuinely hope that Last Epoch grows and is able to fully rival both path of exile and Diablo 4. it is fully playable offline and I am beyond grateful for that. Literally one of my only complaints about last epoch is that I cannot use the cosmetics that I have bought with my own money on my offline character.
If you haven't played grim dawn, you should seriously consider it. Hell of a game
@@Thrawn90 Already do and I love it.
That hits home for me. The single best news I've gotten for a game I play in years was Inquisitor Martyr getting proper offline play. Now I'll get to play it whenever I want years down the line.
Making it easier and cheaper to respec in Path of Exile would help new players to experiment with builds more instead of being required to follow a build guide or having to delete your character and make a new one. That is one thing I liked about Diablo 3 and 4, how easy it was to respec.
Personal top 3 in order:
PoE, Last Epoch, Grim Dawn
Imo you overrate all the DIablos.
Honorary mention: Torchlight 2 but ONLY with/due to the SynergiesMOD. This mod is basically a total conversion and an entire new game by itself, it is free (beyond having to pay for Torchlight 2) and while it's not balanced the sheer diversity (like 60 classes or whatever?) makes it fun to endlessly try out new things.
I dig it
Gotta agree an that one. Not a big fan of Grim Dawn and definitely a fan of Diablo 1 and 2, but if we rate it at todays standards it just doesn't fit. For me, D1 would probably be C tier, D2 B tier and D4 D tier. U just can't compare PoE or Last Epoch to todays D2 experience. (maybe D4 and D1 on the same level, but I'd rather play D1 instead of D4 honestly...)
Grim Dawn is F tier
Check out Chronicon, guys. It's not on this list, but it's incredibly addicting and surprisingly fun. Don't let the graphics turn you off.
Pity it never really got of the ground and development stopped
Grim Dawn should be in the A tier and diablo 4 should be in the b tier. IMO.
If we are counting when the games came out my list would look like this.
1. Diablo 2
2. Titan's Quest (I put more time in this one than any other ARPG) (Last Epoch is going to pass it though)
3. Last Epoch
4 Grim Dawn
5 Diablo 4
6 Diablo 3
Sadly I missed out on Path of Exile for some reason so I can't rate it, and the others listed I never played. If we are going to rate the games as playing them today it would be this list
1. Last Epoch ( I did spend over a year in the beta)
2 Titan's Quest
3 Grim Dawn
4 Diablo 2
55 Diablo 4
56 Diablo 3
We were telling the Dev's of Last Epoch over a year ago about how the game broke down when a bunch of people were switching zones and they blew us off as no big deal.
Why do you feel that you missed out on PoE? I only just began playing it last year while in the "d4 waiting room", and it became my favorite game of all-time overnight.
Give it a shot if you've got a free weekend! Highly recommend following Pohx's guide for Righteous Fire. It served me well in my first league.
@@_Baleful I feel that I missed out on PoE because we are so close to the launch of PoE-2, with work and a few other games I've bought I'm just going to wait until PoE-2 releases and jump on board day one and hope I didn't need to play PoE to understand it. From what i've read it takes a very long time to play through PoE becuse it is a very large game. Thanks for the comment.
I Loved Torchlight 1 and 2! I really love the art style. Torchlight 2 was especially awesome!
Nice video, however I still miss Chronicon wich is for me an SSS tier game and entrys like Divine Divinity and maybe The Slormancer ;-)
Sacred and Sacred 2 both great games IMO seem to be completely forgotten. Undecember is a fantastic game just destroyed by monetization which also kills the enjoyment of Lost Ark. Undecember just bothers me because it could be so much more. Why companies don't copy the POE model is completely beyond me. Gamers will spend a fortune supporting a game that they love and is not pay to win.
One note: I think Last Epoch should be S Tier and the reason I would say that is that AT RELEASE it is probably the best ARPG ever. POE2 will likely take that crown.
On Diablo 3 I was an alpha tester and in alpha D3 was actually a fantastic game that was just D2 but better and had some true depth and really interesting game systems. In beta basically all they did is just strip system after system completely out literally because Blizzard thought it important that "my Grandmother can pick it up and understand it
Sacred was amazing - one of the best games ever. I loved the fact that it was an open world. Any similar games you would recommend?
@@yorgohoebeke Only really Sacred 2 and sort of Divine Divinity are really similar. Before they changed Wolcen was supposed to be open world.
I was looking for this comment. I grew up playing sacred ,i started and ended it over 20 times,never got bored ,even now i play sometimes. That game had something special for me, from the items to spels and god the music and sounds in that game... truly a masterpiece. For me it will always be number 1. I really like i still find people that liked it!
@@adelinflorentin4444 Maybe one day somebody will make a sacred inspired game ! Let’s hope so. In the meantime, you made me want to replay it :)
I remember
D3 was my entry to ARPGs, which is now one of my favourite genres
Online-required games would automatically be in the lowest tier for me. I don't want someone else controlling when I can play, and when the game goes offline permanently.
I couldnt empathize more on your D4 wall comment halfway into the vid. I ran a druid in S2 from 0-93 and put in 185 hours. I had so much fun, I didnt understand why everyone didnt like the game. Then once I maxed out all my seasonal events I realized that the only content left was repeatedly running one of a couple flavor of the month basic-bitch bosses and I lost all incentive to play. Havent picked it up since.
Same bro i went home to poe and dedicated twice the time I did before because I felt I had betrayed the king ha ha ha ended up with my first head hunter
Aah Titan Quest! Played it and its expansion Immortal Throne so much. One of the most unique features as you said, was that you could actually spot random enemies wielding a big glowy unique sword and you knew it would be yours. I've been missing that in every other arpg.
But D1 on the same tier as Grim Dawn? Ouch. Also, played D2 more than anything, thousands of hours, but to put it in to S-tier in 2024.. I know you need to give credit to the Diablos for all the work they've done, but maybe not like this. Great video, thanks for making it.
Loving LE but I really LOL'd when I saw the keys that 1) took inventory space and 2) didn't stack. Definitely one of the many things that could use some polish and completion (he story for example). So I guess that balances out the many stash tabs :) That being said, it does so many things right that are core to the ARPG experience. As mentioned in the video, you can tell that ARPG gamers/enjoyers are behind the wheel. Having one more great option in the genre is a win for everyone. I'm always hoping D4 will get better, I hope some of them tried out LE too. They're getting there with the seasons (eventually) and it's something LE still doesn't really have, but the core game needs a lot more.
sequel to to Titan Quest "coming soon", who waiting for it?
this is the only guy i know that praises the old antiquated mechanics in diablo4,
You forgot Victor vran, Undecember, WH40k Inquisitor Martyr, WH chaosbane and a few more, i don't remember their names.
yeah but chaosbane is easily to forget because is really bad....
@@danielemarrocu2717 could just add it to 'avoid' game section, making more content for the video, also brings in perspectives of various games made in this genre, and why some had success, and some failed.
@@danielemarrocu2717its not THAT bad. It scratches the ARPG itch but its a bargain game.
@@danielemarrocu2717 calling it bad is BS. It's not a bad game at all. Its just clearly a budget game and the game itself works fine and has fun combat. It's not meant to compete with the big competitors
@@HeavyMetalGamingHD i can name a ton of games that are on extremely low budgets, but that are fun, chaosbane has pretty bad gameplay, pretty bad itemization and in the final its boring, every now and then i try to reinstall it a play it because i'm extremely fond of the arpg genre, and that game simplyh makes me uninstall it after few minutes of play, its even worse than torchlight 3.
Titan Quest definitely deserved a higher rating than what you gave it, because just as PoE was inspired by D2, Grim Dawn was inspired by Titan Quest. I'd even go as far as to say that PoE was inspired by Titan Quest as well. I don't think the PoE devs ever admitted to it but if you play Titan Quest you will see hints to this like the classless (tabula rasa) nature of Titan Quest characters and the fact that its skilltrees and masteries are all echoed in PoE's classes and ascendancies. There are even parallels in the main story of both games as well like the threat of Typhon (a trapped god) just like the threat of Kitava (another trapped god) and the same themes of primordial gods returning.
I could have been talked in to bumping titan quest up, it was judged more by what it is than what it was. I'm excited for the sequel!
@@LuckyGhostSame other than Dragon's Dogma 2 it's one of the few games that I'm actually hyped for this year. :)
Grim Dawn is actually developed by former Iron Lore devs (the studio who made Titan Quest) It's why the customization system and gameplay is so similar. It even uses the same engine as Titan Quest.
Grim Dawn B tiers and Titan Quast C tiers lol, are you crazy?
i love the intro lol, well done. great video, too, solid points.. i hope they polish up the controller for last epoch, i really want to play it but my wrists hurt and can't play for very long.
I hope so too, its definitely a game I'd love to see as many people be able to play as possible. I'm hoping it's ideas rub off on other games in the genre!
Great video, wish you had covered the sacred franchise as well though 😊
Sacred is S+ tier
After playing so many hours of D3, I find it so hard to enjoy any other ARPGs because of how slow they all feel. I tried playing Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, and Torchlight 2 recently and it felt like I was moving in molasses just to kill 2 enemies every 30 seconds. Super pumped that D4 is bringing back an equivalent to the Rift gameplay loop from D3, I love the feeling of optimizing and speedrunning them!
This is definitely how I feel as well. I am playing Grim Dawn while waiting for Season 4 but it feels clunky and slow comparatively to D4.
Unicorn Overlord is an incredible game and the story and characters are fantastic. I wasn't sure what to expect but the demo absolutely sold me on it.
Grim Dawn and Path of Exile are the top two for me personally
A for D4 is extremely generous- maybe in Season 10
its not generous it's simply honest. Hate aside.
@Dzagiel77 No he overrated it imo, it's not a GREAT game. Not terrible either, but certainly not "Great Today"
agree it is B tier esp for S3. S2 was A tier. i hope S4 changes big things and keeps it A tier
Nah, it is an A tier game for all the reasons he stated.
@@ChessMarine310 D4 deserves a high rating for the campaign alone. it has by far the best campaing experience in the whole genre.
I was always under the impression that Torchlight 1 was influenced by Fate.
It was also kid friendly graphics, with just 1 single dungeon that just kept going deeper and deeper.
Both Torchlight and Fate were inspired by D1. Torchlight was made by the same guys that invented/created D1. The creator of Fate said he wanted Fate to be a more casual Diablo . Crazy the impact Diablo had on the industry
yeah for sure@@LuckyGhost
The pet system from Torchlight 2 was similar to the game Fate which was so much fun...you could even fish in it haha!
He doesn't include Fate in his list: the game was better than Torchlight in most ways. Charming and fun both.
@@gameburn178 that game was a big part of my childhood. Getting the god tier legendary item max enchanted and then giving it as an heirloom. Such a phenomenal system
My pet is Always full with very very good items😊
you could fish inside of your pet?
Bro the absolute disrespect to the original Diablo. That was my childhood right there. Pioneered the whole genre and I'd still play it today!
No disrespect I love that game! Like I said if I rated based on its released easy s tier!
I hope next year your next ARPG tier list is a little more comprehensive. You didn't mention the Sacred, Dungeon Siege, Fate, or Divinity series. The pet system in Torchlight was almost directly lifted from Fate. Besides that and putting the diablo games a bit too high (I say this as someone who thinks of Diablo 1 as a top 5 favorite of all time game), I generally agree with the list.
minecraft dungeon is kinda cool for a week too
DIABLO 4 WAS THE ONLY GAME IN THE PAST DECADE THAT I THOUGHT IT WAS A CHORE TO PLAY AND I WASNT HAVING FUN. IT WAS THAT BAD.
Grim dawn and Titan quest, are solid tier S.
Can people stop confusing ARPG with 'diablo-like' games, it means ACTION RPG it doesn't have to be top-down!
How can Titan Quest is C dude? Back then there was no game like it. And Grim Dawn is B???? I am not sure if you are a true fan of the genre.
Grim dawn should be S tier maybe he just play a few hours and Diablo 2 S tier lol its like Titan quest slow af.
Currently I would still swap D3 and D4, but that might already change with the next season, but you also weight the campaigns quite heavily and d4 has easily the best campaign in the genre and that by a substantial margin to the competitors.
The bit at the beginning I’m dead 😂😂
Did a few grim dawn runs, such an epic game. Gonna try POE thanks to this video :D
I played 20 hours blind into poe and yes, my build fell off against gold color monsters in act 4 lmao. I was very discouraged because again yeah, i probably fked up that passive node tree greatly. But damn, just your description of praise for poe made me want to try again following a build guide. I never really thought of it in the way of GGGs strategy to have players simply try a single different build each league.. its actually intriguing. Thanks for the great video!
Nice list, thanks for the video.
But imho Titan Quest is very underrated (here)!
I've played TQ back in 2006, mostly with a friend in LAN. Countless times we've played kinda through the whole night, nebulized the room with cigarette smoke, drinking beer, eating pizza and chips, slaying Sartyrs, Gorgons, Telkines and all those other monsters. Guess it wasn't the healthiest time of my life, but definately one of the best!
I've bought Diablo I along with my first own PC in 1997, so it will always be one of my fav games. The atmosphere was so good, dark, scary (even the SOUNDTRACK - my god i can still hear it... and "Ah, fresh meat!" lol). But yes, graphics, controls etc. are very outdated today. I've also played and love(d) Diablo II when it came out.
But back then, I'm pretty sure I've spent far more hours in TQ than in D1 and D2 combined.
Nowerdays, Diablo II Resurrected and Diablo III have topped the playtime.
My list would look like this:
S-Tier: Diablo II Resurrected, Titan Quest
A-Tier: Diablo III, Last Epoch (haven't played much yet, but looks very promising - perhaps S-Tier soon)
B-Tier: Diablo I, Path of Exile (could be better, but too complex for my taste)
C-Tier: Grim Dawn, Torchlight, Torchlight II, Van Helsing
D-Tier: Diablo IV (i HOPE and think it will get much better with the changes that will come with season 4!), Wolcen
F-Tier: Diablo Immortal (Mobile ARPG? Nah. Pay2Win? Naaaaah!!!)
Didn't play Torchlight III and Infinite, guess they go in D or F Tier.
agree with you about titan and D2, I would just add Grimdawn there too
Grim Dawn in C tier is wild
I've played all of these except Immortal. I play arpgs with a big group of friends on Discord. I don't know a single person who has said Immortal is a bad arpg. In fact, they all say it's good, but that it shouldn't exist and is predatory.
I don't enjoy the gearing of POE, trying to keep up resistances and finding gear with the right socket colors and links just gets too annoying. And you get punished in late game if you don't follow a build guide or have every aspect of the game memorized. You seem to get punished for trying to experiment with your own builds.
One other thing you missed was the ability to fish in Path of Exile.
- Good video, love this tier list
This list really needed "SACRED 1" as one of them, it could fit on the C category or even D, but, for me, this game was as good as Diablo 1 at least. The problem with Sacred 1 was the fact that it wasnt procedural, once you end it you will never play it again, but man, the map was big. Now that it think it, grim dawn map was gigantic too, if im not wrong, i mean, with the DLCs.
What is a "season" in a video game? I liked Diablo 3, but couldn't get into Path of Exiles. Torchlight 2 is one of my favorite games.
It's a league separated from the standard one, so you can have a fresh start, and new game mechanics are implemented in the game.
one small thing to note is that a lot of poe players are on the stand alone client, so the steam numbers are only a fraction of the current players
true!
the reviews were good to listen to but when you said their ratings, i sort of got confused as some of them have a bad or good review but then you rate it higher or lower that what you said, i dont really get that logic, unless am missing something you saying nothing but praise and saying it has little cons, then rating it sort of half way, it seems a bit off on how you rated these but thanks for the reviews for them.
Sorry if it was confusing! I will have to look into how to make it easier to follow next time
@@LuckyGhost The Reviews were fine, got me interested in some of them, its more you said good things about one or two of them with little cons and still put them Lower than it sounds, like the Grim Dawn, you seem to really like it, even said it was very highly rated and has more updates incoming, very little cons, sounded like it should be in either A, or if the cons wasn't there, S tier, while Diablo 4, as far as I heard it was good but very lack-luster so to say, more because it was draining to play and the con of not being able to play the best part, the story for each Season, It sounded to me that it would of been in either B or C more because it had a good story but the drain you seem to not like made it not worth playing after awhile so I felt a little confused, I know its your opinion but I just thought your rating and opinion never really matched up, You did this to a few of them, was the steam player count also put under consideration to the rating or am I missing something? anyways, I still liked the reviews you did for them, thank you.
Ah, Wolcen. Played the demo and was totally hyped for it. The full release happened and everything that made it unique and interesting went out the window and it was no longer the same game. Still don't know what happened.
I forgot who did it, someone did a comparison. And it was cheaper to get a degree from Harvard than it was to lvl your character from 0 to completely maxed out in Diablo immortal
Fun fact - action role playing games (ARPG) dont need top down camera angle. The likes of dark souls, horizon, recent final fantasy games are ARPGs
That's also true!
There are a number of d2 mods that modernize, balance and expand the game. It's still my go too over all other games you listed. Try pd2 or pod.
Pd2 is awesome!
My favourite part of D3 is the option to play several builds in a season. There are so many fun builds:) The challenge is to do grift 150 with several builds. That`s not easy, even for no lifers.
its weird that the only reason i even got exposed to arpg's at all was because my older cousin had diablo 1 & 2 (ultimate compendium & battlechest editions) and he spent every waking hour of his life playing that game while he was in highschool (i was in elementary school at the time) and i spent a good amount of my time at his place watching him play (at least until he started getting creepy with me and his sister...), i never got to play it myself but i was enamored by the game so much that when diablo 3 came out, i bought it without question (big mistake).
i wish i could go back and play those games when i had the chance since theyre one of the few games i never got to play, since then i've played almost every game that came out since the 2000s onwards and have admittedly been burned out by most of them, not for being grindy (since im a loot goblin and grind gremlin) but for being unfun and hopelessly pay to win. but the games i grew up with like diablo 2 and ragnarok online have a very special place in my heart. even if i never got a chance to play the former.
Extremely generous to Diablo IV. Titan Quest and Grim dawn are better than both Diablo III and IV.
Titan Quest should be A. Even today it looks gorgeous in those mythological and ancient Greek times!
Titanquest has a very deep talent system, overlooked alot
My childhood was playing Fate from WildTangent. It was a knock-off, but I’d say the best knock-off at the time
"Warhammer 40,000: Inquisitor - Martyr" has good gameplay and good story. You should play it at least once but its worth playing on other classes. Think of it as a offline ARPG.
Many classes do feel different which is very different.
One thing I'll give Martyr credit on (with it's own baked in demerit) is how the Admech background enters the plot. It's a bold move to have a short prologue and essentially say "So the entire original plot up to this point already happened. Your picking up where someone else left off." But I do pity that you can't do the Martyr campaign with that background... Yet I can understand why. That little bit of Admech only is full of 'this would have required a lot of plot stuff to get Admech help. But your Admech so you just get on with it.' and I love that.
Last Epoch has become my favorite ARPG, if they fix server issues and add on to the endgame it will reign supreme for a while. My opinion of course!
Sacred 1 & 2 imo should be here. As for newer arpg a game like Warhammer 40k inquisitor deserves mention. While more of a hybrid (arpg/mmo) i think Lost Ark is a good enough title to also get a spot.
If I don't remember wrong, D4 stash limits came / comes (if still the case) from the fact that your client pre-loads all the items every player in your layer has, even in their stash.
that's correct. at some point someone very high up said "This is how the game functions, and this is ok for launch" - wild
Wolcen is actually pretty good to play once or twice. It has quite a few interesting ideas and feels really modern compared to some other games. It was basically unlucky that bugs ruined the experience and devs couldn’t manage to fix everything. Now it’s totally playable and is a little gem of a game that every ARPG fan should try.
try never winter nights 1 , the gameplay and the improvement of your character in each level you will feel it , highly recommended
Outside of uniques. I don’t see the problem with the stashes in D4 ig I play different or something. But I have plenty of stash space for the items that will actually be used for other characters
Missing Warhammer Inquisitor and Sacred 1 and 2. Those are good, underrated games. You should try them
will do!
@@LuckyGhost forgot to mentioned Dungeon Siege 2 also. Although it's a little bit hard to make it work on a modern PC.
Love the tier list, but I think torchlight infinite is highly underrated. The crafting is so much fun, and does so many things right. I don't need the monetization at all, just like POE.
i just think its funny when many people complain about how d4 only had 4 stash tabs (which isnt enough for sure) and then they go on to talk about last epoch and how it has 100+ stash tabs and how its this amazing accomplishment that changes the game and is a huge plus.....
stop to think about this. why do you need 100+ stash tabs? what are you filling them up with? items to check for meta?...
its funny cuz when people argue that, all i can think of is a player sorthing trhough 100 stash tabs for a specific item.
the problem isnt stash tabs at that point, its itemization.
funny cuz everyone online acts so smart but has 0 capability to think about things critically
Your comment has this impressive ability to drip with condescension while also outing you as someone who doesn't have a lot of experience in arpgs. Bold combination to shoot for
@@LuckyGhost I don't agree at all. He is correct in stating that if you need that many stash tabs then the itemization is whack. I have played aRPGs, regular RPGs, and MMORPGs since before Diablo 1. More itemization options does not mean the game is better. It causes too much useless garbage.
@@christopherputnam1608 agree to disagree!
Hello dude. Thanks for the vid. You ve gained a new (Bell-on) Subber! I have a question for you. HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED CHRONICON? Because that's the stuff!
I may be a bit weird, but I would put Titan Quest on par with Grim Dawn. Sure, Grim Dawn made a lot of things better, but I find it confusing in its maps, which are very complicated and oversized for no particular benefit. The weirdest thing is, I was pulled in by Grim Dawn first, but now, I find more fun in titan Quest. I hope Titan quest II will be everything good and more from both its ancestors.
I wonder where you would put Warhammer 40,000: Inquisitor - Martyr on that tier list. I have enjoyed the campaign and I have enjoyed playing it, but after finish it, I never had a desire to play endgame content nor play it again.
Last Epoch is my favorite ARPG
Imagine putting diablo 2 less sans S tier, its the game that made this whole genre what it is today
I just throw gear on randomly and have fun, it's a hoot and a half! Most ARPG's are fairly forgiving when it comes to equipment.
same, i never cared about min/maxing despite having hunderds of hours in this genre
Оut of all these Grim Dawn gives you the best experience! I got 1000+ hours and still come back to it every now and then!
Diablo 4 over Diablo 3 feels quite wrong.
4 did not completely gut rpg mechanics
Titan Quest should definitely be B tier, maybe even A tier. It was an awesome game that melted my laptop back then.
I tried so hard to get into PoE, played it a bunch pre-launch and for a while after with my son. But yeah, just trying to make a build was more hard-mode than I wanted to deal with. Maybe PoE 2 will suck me in. I actually hope it does.
Tbh i wasnt going to comment but the blasphemy that is the D4 and Grim Dawn relative rating was just too much. Grim dawn, minus the asthetics being inferior, is superior to d4 in every other way. If d4 has a great campaign then grim dawns is at least as good. It seems to me that the pretty lights d4 gave us has blinded most ppl into thinking it had a good campaign. Campaign aside, d4 has the worst itemization in its own series much less compared to grim dawn or last epoch. Last epoch got critiqued for lack of endgame....d4 endgame? Im not going to go through every single point but d4 getting an A rating with grim dawm at B is just blasphemy.
Ight... This is some cope... As someone that's played Grim dawn for about 200 hours, and has played D4 for roughly 400... There is no comparison of the combat and overal feel of the game. If you wanna get into comparing progression systems, there is an argument to be made, but the actual gameplay is SUBSTANTIALLY better in almost every aspect.
@@Ethan_Coble im going to assume when you say 'gameplay' you are referring to the feeling of the game as opposed to the reason ppl play these types of games. so yes grim dawn does not have the better gameplay feel for the same reason it is aesthetically inferior....its on a much much much older game engine. if you are talking about what you are actually doing in the game eg chasing loot, exploring the world, revealing secrets fighting bosses etc d4 has the most shallow gameplay even compared to d3. the fact that there is a debate between a 2024 game and 2016 game says a lot. there really is no defending the current product that is d4....the potential was there and they chose to scam you instead of give you a game you can play for years.
While at talking about old games, I'm surprised you completely missed the Sacred series, especially Sacred Gold and Sacred 2. These, IMHO, were better than Titan quest for instance and absolutely better than Van Helsing or most of the Torchlight series.
Comparing diablo 3 launch with LE's launch is so regarded on so many levels.
My first game ever was D2 not long after its launch when I moved from the middle of nowhere, off the grid life to near a large city that had both electricity and the internet. I was already 50 years old and played on the Asian servers which was riddled with farming bots. In between D2 & 3 I also played Sacrifice which was bloody fantastic and so unique but so low budget it couldn't find the funds to expand to an online game. And of course, Titan Quest which I loved. Then came D3, what a bloody mess! I spent more time in that stupid auction house than actually playing the game and there were so many cheat bots selling gear for such ridiculous amounts of gold that no legit player could ever hope to find in game. I almost gave up but D3 did start to improve exponentially and the later seasons were really good as we waited for D4. I had already decided that at 75 years old I wasn't going to play D4 so instead bought D2res to relive those fun times. Meantime my daughter gifted me D4 which I have installed but never actually started as I watch the likes of Wudijo, Raxx, etc. I'll continue to wait. Last Epoch does sound like a better choice for a very old lady such as I.😉
thanks for sharing your journey! ❤️
Great video! Wondering if you ever played Hero Siege? It was really fun until they recently "updated" it to 2.0. Put a solid 150hrs into it, then took a break; came back to it recentlyand found it nearly unplayable.
No I haven't, but I will check it out! Thanks for the rec
My favorite ARPGs are Achilles legends untold, baldurs gate dark alliance 2, cat quest 2, diablo 3 eternal collection, killsquad, Minecraft dungeons, nobody saves the world, the ascent, the incredible adventures of van helsing 1, 2 and 3, torchlight 2, victor vran overkill edition, warhammer 40k inquisitor martyr, warhammer chaosbane slayer edition, welcome to paradize and wolcen lords of mayhem
To be fair, Diablo 2 is only still that good today thanks to this wonderful Resurrected remaster. Diablo 2 Original was most likely my most replayed game back in the day, but today I wouldn't touch it again with its original graphics and gameplay. However, Diablo 2 Resurrected is simply one hell of a remaster, that's how you do it (exception: f-keys for skills, I mean seriously?)
My favourites are two other games:
Torchlight 2 - This is the one game in that genre that I return back to frequently, because the core gameplay is just the pure "essence" of what a ARPG should be like
Grim Dawn - Very solid game by any means, but the real standout here is the physics engine and I just really like to smash enemies all over the screen XD
A suggestion:
Sacred 1-3 could also be mentioned. I don't know if this games developed in Germany were somehow popular elsewhere but at least Sacred One (2004) was really great, it had a huge, rich Open world before Open worlds even were a thing... Sadly I could never get into Sacred 2 and the third one was just some abysmal roguelike bs.
NO way diablo 4 > grim dawn. Naaah, only grafic and voice acting , in every other category for sure grim dawn slaps diablo4
I really find the modern “season” loops, boring.
I want to invest in, and develop my character long term. The reverse, creates an indifference to your character, at least in my mind. Plus you aim to get max lvl as fast as possible, begging the question, why have leveling at all?
Anyway good vid as always
In Path of Exile, you have the option to do that. The standard league, is where all your characters are, they don't lose any levels nor items. You can continue playing your character there forever.