''He who acknowledges and learns to manage his CNS, is a man ready to conquer the world.'' -Very ancient cave inscription found next to a chiselled drawing of a barbell made out of stone weights.
A few random notes: - Interesting to compare different weightlifting systems. If anyone hasn’t seen it, IronMind’s video of Botev in the 95 training hall is great. Close to competition and he does so much volume. Maxing out snatch, clean and jerks and squats multiple times a day. Of note in the classical lifts are that they are sub maximal compared to their deadlift. Very Bulgarian style of training and not something to recommend to the average lifter, especially when about to compete lol. - Chinese lifters include a lot of pulls, especially snatch grip, going heavy. The major factor for them and the first one is that these lifters are the result of a brutal lottery system where only the best survive, meaning those with the best genetics and work ethic etc. No such system exists in the west, so it’s hard to wrap your head around sometimes. Chinese also do a lot of bodybuilding work and won’t max out the classical lifts or even squats with the frequency of something like the Bulgarian system. - I experience peripheral fatigue and volume is my trigger. Auto regulation is big, but a proper program is the best solution. Being “in shape” is another factor. For the average lifter, they won’t be able to max out the big three all at once while trying to get into peak aerobic shape. Picking particular objectives to focus on is probably a better practice to keep fresh. - Injuries and life in general will make constant peak training impossible. I’ve yet to meet a single lifter who didn’t take a break from max training for some reason or another. This gives the cns a break. - I don’t think I’ve ever experienced the second type of fatigue unless I was distracted with personal issues or something. Not to say I pr every session, but if everything is on point, I hit my objectives, but I always have a few in mind, not just one number, which is cheating a bit, like they do at Westside with max effort, they don’t pr a single every time and if feeling a little off, they will pr a triple or a five repper instead with a particular variation.
I’m 32 still feel similiar to in my 20s with some minor tweaks though now. But I’ve gotten a lot smarter. no more grinders lol and going for broke on low rep prs. Never bother doing a true 100% rep max anymore. Heaviest I’ll ever go is I’ll work up to 90ish% and treat it as a speed rep to see where I’m at. And the results are much better. Makes a big difference approaching your heavy work with total confidence and focusing on moving it as fast as you can
@@Biglenny-v9r exactly . You can't replace valuable knowledge .and it's stupid to go for 100 percent 1 rep max . I have solid idea what my max is based off a triple . I'd rather do a single that's explosive then a grinder that will cost a pec tear . Idiots never learn they get hurt an do it all again
The best lagging indicator of fatigue imo is grip strength. When I'm towards the end of a block I notice I can't grab a bumper 45 and load it onto the bar with one hand vs the beginning of a block when I'm more well rested and they feel like pillows. When that happens appropriately during the block I know I've managed fatigue properly. Too early and I've ramped up too quickly, too late and I've been sandbagging. Note that although it is a lagging indicator I've found it only lags by a few days at most. Where fatigue is peaked at the last week of a block, by the end of the first week of the next block I've recovered pretty much 100%.
As a climber pretty much nothing that Bromley says is directly applicable for me and still almost everything is. I have watched hours and hours of videos about training for climbing and still Bromley's videos have been the most valuable by driving home the fact that consistency is key. If you have a plan that scales and that you can keep up, you will see progress. Don't expect miracles, expect results.
Any athletic endeavor will operate on essentially the same principles. Any movement progress will rely on neurological and tissue adaptations. Any training program revolves around volume, intensity, and frequency as the key variables.
Very well put! Training a variety for my work requirements, his teaching and principles are applicable to the work demands and requirements to lift, swim, climb, run, drag, and go for hours.
Some of best training wisdom I’ve ever received was something along the lines of: ‘adaptations are not linear, the human body is a very complex biological system.’ In essence just because you failed to put 5 pounds on your bench this week doesn’t automatically mean you failed to provide the proper stimulus last week. It’s likely that you did, just that your body hasn’t caught up. Soviet sport scientists took note of this, and is likely why their programming structure is complex, with volume and intensity constantly waving.
Happend to me this week, on Sunday hit a 5KG bench pr, Monday hit a 10KG squat pr and a 15KG power clean pr (plus multiple prs in the 3-5 rep range in weeks leading up to this week). Went to deadlift yesterday and felt like I hit a wall, made my last warmup and couldn't even budge the working set off the ground, taking the next 10 days off and then start my new block.
As someone who did some powerlifting meets in the past, this makes a lot of sense. Most of my training still revolves around those lifts, but I rarely go after maxes. In fact, the only times I end up going for them is on days when the warmups are flying, or my working sets feel really good. Being in my late 50s, I know that my recovery is generally going to take longer than younger lifters, so I always try to keep two rest days between my compound lifts.
One very important thing that's left out in the discussion of Bulgarian training in this video that Max Aita talks about in his discussion of Bulgarian training is that those lifters were the genetic anomalies who were able to survive and make it through the process. Just like with military special forces training, most of the people who entered the program didn't make it through and dropped out.
You can not compare the two at all . The Bulgarian stuff was lifters on tons of gear. Gear helps recovery significantly especially the amount they took
"punchy" & "grindy" are THE clearest explanations I've ever heard! You have a great talent for explaining these concepts in a way that is so understandable & memorable 🙏🙌👏👏👏
As a powerlifter, I rarely go for even heavy singles in the off-season, usually only once every other month to maybe once a month. Yes during prep you have to ladder up your singles but most of your off-season is done around RPE 7-8, and it's a lot of 4-8 rep ranges
That's wise. I'm an amateur powerlifter too, both me and my training buddies are off season right now, but some of them are still trying to hit prs on triplets and singles every damn day. Their body, their rules, but this is snap city just waiting to happen imho
The general recommendations about about deadlifting being harder to recover from than the squat never lined up for me. I’m 6’2” with slightly longer arms. My torso angle is more or less the same on squat (low bar) as it is deadlift (Conv) - Difference being I’m going through much more knee flexion on squat. So what’s more taxing, more muscles going through a greater range of motion or breaking the floor on a deadlift. My subjective feeling is that a deadlift 4x2 at 86% leaves me feeling ready for more. However a squat 4x3 at 84% has me wishing my accessories for the day were lower in volume.
@@brandonyoung4910 even with my deadlift being 100lbs more than squat it still gets me this way. Must be a tall person thing haha. Although, I peak very well after a taper which I also attribute to being tall for similar reasons. Because even though I well leveraged for the deadlift I still have to move the bar much farther than a short person with less ideal levers - more volume per rep.
I'm 6'2.25 similar build to you, I agree completely. I feel more taxed from back squats than deadlift. I fixed this issue by going to front squats though, that's my recommendation because it doesn't drain the posterior chain but targets the legs even more than back squat (especially for someone with our build) so you can recover easier and deadlift without carryover fatigue from leg day
@@simondean5227 for general strength and hypertrophy I could see this working well! I’m a powerlifter though so I gotta back squat. I wouldn’t say recovery is a problem, more so about finding *my* proper exposure balance between conventional deadlifts and low bar squats.
Just gotta say, i used to max out almost wvery session during my LP/beginner days. But when I stuck to your Bullmastiff (and 70s PL now), Ive never felt more confident in my lifts and well rested. Despite the 5x10s and plus sets. Currently on peaking phase wave 2 of 70s PL. cant wait to see whats in store. My run of bullmastiff was pretty good. Squats went from 315x1 to 360x5 Bench from 240x1 to 260x5 DL from 415x1 to 475x1 And ohp from 155x1 to 170x1. Cant wait to run more of your programs.
Louie Simmons has stated that after 90 % of max training for 3 weeks u start going backwards n from experience that seems correct n Louie was a reliable source to learn from.. And Dorian Yates has said after 6 weeks u hit a wall n should change % or intensity n u had Vince Gironda suggested after 4 weeks take a week off there is 3 great examples that were pretty much on the same page so live n learn.
Dorian Yates is not qualified to speak on the subject he was a body builder , he doesn't know anything about getting stronger or in better athletic shape. All he knew was diet an taking large amounts of gear and bodybuilding. I wouldn't take anything he says serious when it comes to geting stronger
I Max out every week on a squat/deadlift/good morning/ pressing movement followed up 72 hours later by a dynamic effort session (concurrent method) I use a velocity sensor to track my stimulus to fatigue ratios and bar speeds and as useful as this all is I still experience cns fatigue from time to time. I even use an oura ring to dictate my readiness for the day and limiting my exposures from time to time helps but cns fatigue is the real deal !
Part of the issue with maxing and CNS failure is how training is promoted. Much more often than not we hear and see people going super hard, heavy and to failure. It’s catchy! Nobody wants to see a person with an RIR of 3-4 on a set. For younger lifters who don’t have a ton of knowledge this is dangerous. Also, when a newbie trains really hard the gains come quick, and there is a tendency to think more is better. In reality, it’s just the opposite. Fatigue will always be part of effective training. But how to manage it effectively is key. Lots of rest - quality food - lower stress and a plan that is flexible.
For what it's worth, I've never been in a situation where I failed the lift I "should have" hit where I didn't have at least some physical symptom that something involved in that lift was a little strained or unhappy so I tend to think there's more of a physical explanation. If the nervous system is limiting you it may be because the physical structure isn't 100% not the nervous system. Anecdotally I've had tons of times where I'm too "burnt out" to usefully train one lift, but I can go all out and even set some kind of pr on a not too different one. So tldr conjugate
I've been always quite experimental with my training. Tried swimming, runing (short and long distances), box jumps, long jumps, squat jumps, pistol squats, pull-ups and other bodyweight exercises, volleyball, basketball, shot put, max deadlifts, squats, bench, shoulder press, same last 4 exercises for reps, snatches and c&js... The 3 exercises that tire me the most are clean&jerks (heavy sets of 2-3 reps), fast running and rope jumps. Max squats or deadlifts don't fatigue me nearly as much, and in fact those often bring me some great dopamine rush.
I did 180 dumb bell bench press one week and haven't since (in part do to a health emergency, but there were several weeks of good health where I couldn't get back to that). That health emergency is believed to be a nervous system issue (pain doc says pinched nerves, but neurologist feels different (MRI does not show disc bulging into nerves)). This is very interesting.
Great video ! I have read many articles & watched many a video on CNS fatigue but with all the knowledge & application it still rears its ugly head time to time but less often. For me at its worst it feels like my brain is floating in embalming fluid & my performance is commensurate with that. How I minimise it from occurring is i always leave a rep or two in the tank, rest about 5min or more between top sets but never sit, belly breath to make sure I’m fully oxygenated before a big heavy set & stay hydrated. I take forced rest days between big sessions. With all this I still get CNS fatigue, why? The X factor, external non gym related stressors & inadequate and/or poor quality sleep. As for what is more likely to cause CNS fatigue for me personally: top - bottom. Farmers walk, Zercher Squats, RDLs, Conv deadlifts, Squats, Military Press, Bench Press.
I just started my second hypertrophy block as a powerlifter and it has made a huge difference. When I was running conjugate I was struggling with recovery and getting thorugh workouts because of my crappy fitness level. After a 12 week program my fitness level has at least doubled, my heart rate returns to below 100 in 1-2 minutes instead of 5 like before. Also I feel a lot stronger despite it being hypertrophy focused. Doing sets of 6 on the main lifts really made a difference for me. Last october I opened with a 455 deadlift and laft week I hit 475 for 5.
I just started working out a little over 2 months ago . Going heavy 3 days a week . Doing 5x5 strong lifts . Wonder if I could do heavy one week , and lighter the next week 8-12 reps ?
Pre workouts and stimulants will also mask the symptoms of CNS fatigue. If you find it difficult to workout and stay interested without them then your body is telling you something. Accepting it is the biggest challenge. You miss a lift and "panic" you may get frustrated and leave and come back a few days later and max again to prove to yourself you are not getting weaker. It can be a vicious cycle mentally. You may miss a weight and look back and say "i hit this 3 months ago in training" all this time i wasted and haven't gotten stronger.
As someone who uses the conjugate method of training and hits heavy singles on lower and upper body each week, it is entirely possible to do so, but you need to have the training experience, knowledge and wisdom to create a program that allows for it, and also be very disciplined when it comes to fatigue management, AKA: recovery. As for why I train like this, I love hitting heavy singles. I look forward to my training every week because of the challenge and adversity that only heavy singles can provide. Most lifts are conservative singles within the 95-98% range, but if I'm feeling good, I'll go for a new PR and rarely miss because again, the program is designed around it and recovery is prioritized heavily.
Hey Bromley, hope you're well At about 14:04 you talk about a citation on the adrenal glands of Bulgarian lifters benefitting from some adaptation, was there any more information about this? And where was this info from ? I've been scouring some databases but can't find studies
I struggle with this on the bench, I've had when I don't bench, I already lost a bit of strength, so I always try to at least do some heavy work on the bench instead of a deload because I don't wanna make it "easy" on that stubborn pec muscle.
The hypothetical story you told at the beginning... this is something I have only just now started experiencing while powerbuilding. I'm also experiencing it now due to my med dose being cut in half due to ADHD med shortages. My meds are a CNS stimulant so it makes sense that since it's being less stimulated my strength has taken a small hit
The only time i noticed a total cns fatigue was a couple of years ago. I had a long lay off( year and a half) and started body weight exercises to get back in shape. When i was in shape i could do 28-35 push ups in series up to 6, before numbers went down to 18-20 before failure. My first session after the lay off i hit 18-25 reps in series of 6. Next session, a WEEK LATER, well rested and feeling good i couldnt do more than 2 reps. My CNS was totally shut down... Never again i had this happen
Very educational and informative, miles ahead of the curve. I wish we had a range of rates of recovery for different modalities (strength sports, powerlifting) but you definitely have my like and my subscribe till then, good sir!
great video, discussions on this topic are very important. The cns takes far longer to recover than muscle does. It is for this reason that periodization of training will give the best gains in the long run.
So is the basic consensus on the topic of CNS fatigue to choose variations of the main movers in order to avoid plateaus? Will varying the main movers eliminate the need for deloads?
Load chippers for 5 years on end, 8 hour days. Then tell me cns fatigue isnt a "thing". Midway thru my 4th year I began forgetting how to tie my boots. I've been out of work for a year and a half now and still am not ready to go back. Mentally everything is still there but I can't gey any push behind it. All my injuries are healed. My apendages just feel like over stretched rubber bands.
One week out from my first meet deadlifts and squat have been on the decline mainly squat took a deload at five weeks out week 4 strongest I’ve been through out my entire prep. But the last two weeks not so much even my 80 percent has been moving like a rpe 9 to 10. Dealing with insomnia as well. Any caffeine during my session feels like it over stimulating m.
Hmmm this makes sense and kind of makes me feel less like crap. I hit my PR 455lb deadlift last week. This week 425lbs was tough so I decided to do a Deload week and focus on speed Same with my overhead press. I did 235 last week yet this week I can barely do a plate and a quarter
I'm a little skeptical of all this, but maybe there are different types of neurological fatigue that we need to be measuring differently and that could be a reason why the data doesn't line up with experience
Obviously. But the important thing is if the data doesnt line up with what everyones direct experience says, it implies you're not measuring what you think you're measuring. Until the 'exercise science' people find the thing that explains peoples performance, you're better off basing your training off what is empirically verifiable, not what the scientists are able to measure. As you correctly point out, they arent measuring the correct things (because they dont know what they are yet).
Deadlift & Squat, especially deadlift are more taxing on your Spinal cord compared to Bench pressing.. this is why its very taxing to the body , takes longer to recover from deadlifting or good Squat leg workout compared to bench pressing..
According to Dr Mike, the Bulgarians also had essentially a spa experience lifestyle, all meals provided, massage, and sex workers. They literally only had to train, eat, sleep and relax.
The only thing i disagree with is squats not being as taxing (with respect to volume/bodybuilding). High volume squats or a tom platz leg day will have your cns fried a bit to absolutely fucked
Pedantic is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors, caring too much about minor details, or emphasizing their own expertise especially in some narrow or boring subject matter.
Also the Bulgarian system was not sustainable. Lifters routinely, we're over trained and and fizzled out those that stayed often used a lot of tricks like literally not doing the the workout. There's a reason why Olympic weightlifters don't do that program.
If you max out on a different variation it might be that you are not efficient enough to perform a true max, to some extent. It might be both that it doesn't tax the structures the same, as well as your inefficiency preventing the true max. Think about it, you didn't practice that variation enough to be good at it's light compared to where it would be if you had it mastered. I think for that reason it would need to tax a structure relevant to the lift equally if not more. It would also have to be these structure that could handle more cause you just maxed out the previous week. Maybe that's where Louie got his hip extension fetish from.
@@wearetheremnants1615 my guy, I eat eggs and beef regularly. Beef and eggs aren't going to fix a mental illness like BP. I'm also aware of Shawn Baker, and he's a carnivore zealot. I've tried Carnivore, I've tried vegan, I've tried keto, all were awful and worsened my health/mental health.
@@wearetheremnants1615 To think that any form of diet and exercise and even lifestyle can cure depression or any mental health condition falls under the realm of homeopathic nonsense. It's very much a physical brain issue with how certain chemicals are signaled and received. Drugs help much more to balance things out well when prescribed by a psychiatrist, and therapy helps with using better coping skills and figuring out better ways to think about things. Diet and exercise cannot fix all that.
Please oh please make a follow-up to this. It would be great to talk about how to recognize and avoid the second type of longer term CNS fatigue. Whether it’s sets and reps or exercise selection etc. As someone who auto regulates my biggest issue is controlling this. It often is frustrating as I have weeks of PRs (one to two reps) then the next week I can’t even get through half the reps. I will try again the next week to confirm that it’s not sleep nutrition etc. and by the time I take my deload week it’s been like a month of sub optimal training which is hard physically but also mentally. I really have not seen anyone address this. It would be great if you did!
I hope that I (my comment 4 days ago) don't fall into the category of the know it all. What you said differed from what I've learned, that was all. Or maybe this has nothing to do with me 😅
I don't really care what the studies find on the sort of fatigue you describe. Who cares wether it is some receptor measuring tendon fatigue or CNS fatigue or whatever. It is a real thing most lifters will experience. If studies aren't able to explain it, they should research it more if they expect there to be a way to recover faster when we understand it better. In the meantime, we deal with the phenomenon in a sensible way and figure training out ourselves. Notice how decades of research hasn't really changed anything about how we train, at least not in any fundamental way.
Sleep and Diet =1.4% Dumbass Training Decisions = the rest. Sleep and diet is the most repeated advice in the lifting sphere, so much that I'm not going to waste anyones time repeating it.
Hey Bromley, I see you mention that high intensity doing heavy triples is what drives CNS fatigue but I’ve seen others say that it’s excessive volume that drives CNS fatigue. If it’s caused by intensity why do others say it’s driven by volume or am I misunderstanding you?
Seems there isn't a consensus about what we are talking about when we say CNS fatigue. I'm talking about the phenomenon of strength dropping the session after a really, really heavy effort, after everything else should be recovered. It's the reason elite powerlifters put several weeks between their last heavy attempt and the meet. I dont have faith that the research around this thoroughly addresses it
@@AlexanderBromleyThat’s where I’m confused because I see someone like Mark Rippetoe talking about overtraining with too much volume and it seems like he and others believe that drives it and not intensity. Is he talking about something else because I’m thinking of overtraining and CNS fatigue as the same thing but then you say it’s high intensity causing it and he is saying too much volume is going to make you run into a wall. Which is right ?
@@kainzabihi8529I don’t know if this help but when people say cns fatigue they mean when their motor output is lower and they can’t produce strength Not necessarily being tired or overtrained because that can be other stuff Or even connective tissue🤷♂️
This must be the reason that if I hit a PR, even if I feel like my muscles could rest a few min and add a bit more weight, I often find nothing happens 😂. It’s like my brain said “Alright we did it!” on the first PR and just turned off.
I hate the know it alls and whiny loser. Too much echo chamber, not even practical experience typically. Unable to see both sides. Wait am I the whiny loser? 😂 great video.
If your joints and lumbar are sore, you know you're getting enough training intensity. I never cared too much maxing out since I run a 3 week microcycle volume. I just max out at end of the microcycle. That seems to be my sweet spot.
In my experience the Nervous System fatigues with respect to specific functions. From common sense, empirical analysis, after peaking for a true 1 rep max, if I do not deload and rebuild by starting the next 1-6 weenk, 8 week or 12 week period at a reduced weight that represents a load that is x percent higher than my last strength cycle. It tends to be movement specific meaning 2 things (some movements cannot be trained heavy week in a d week out for long wirhout trashing your strength which goes in reverse. It also means that regardlessof tbe compound lift, training too heavy with the same move over and over will fail to resultin strength gains as yoyr body is use to the the stimulus and adapts to it striving to avoid supercompensation (soms cl this the biological law of accommodation). Either way, if your body has recovered structurally, advanced athletes are not capable of maintaining peak strength for very long. You are better off taking deload to enhance recovery and resume teaining in a hypertrophy phase if you adherr to Western Periodization or to switch your mac effort lift every 2-3 weeks if you adhere to conjugate,. Many liftsrs use a hybrid blend of Western Periodization to avoid to pitfalls inherent in each system. The fact is there is fatigue that cannot be attributed to a lack of structural recovery. Every serious strength athlete experiences this from time to time
i know a 60yo guy training everyday and maxxing out benchpress , he wont share his training routine but i assume he keep his volume extremly low , how else should this be possible he pressed over 200kg in the past his channel name is walterkurda
"A deadlift takes so much longer to recover from than something like a deadlift" true words of wisdom from Bromley at 10:25
Word
Glad I'm not the only one
Do you think he meant an RDL or squat?
@@bucyrus5000 he meant bench press the second time
Well, there's deadlifts, and deadlifts, so...
''He who acknowledges and learns to manage his CNS, is a man ready to conquer the world.''
-Very ancient cave inscription found next to a chiselled drawing of a barbell made out of stone weights.
A few random notes:
- Interesting to compare different weightlifting systems. If anyone hasn’t seen it, IronMind’s video of Botev in the 95 training hall is great. Close to competition and he does so much volume. Maxing out snatch, clean and jerks and squats multiple times a day. Of note in the classical lifts are that they are sub maximal compared to their deadlift. Very Bulgarian style of training and not something to recommend to the average lifter, especially when about to compete lol.
- Chinese lifters include a lot of pulls, especially snatch grip, going heavy. The major factor for them and the first one is that these lifters are the result of a brutal lottery system where only the best survive, meaning those with the best genetics and work ethic etc. No such system exists in the west, so it’s hard to wrap your head around sometimes. Chinese also do a lot of bodybuilding work and won’t max out the classical lifts or even squats with the frequency of something like the Bulgarian system.
- I experience peripheral fatigue and volume is my trigger. Auto regulation is big, but a proper program is the best solution. Being “in shape” is another factor. For the average lifter, they won’t be able to max out the big three all at once while trying to get into peak aerobic shape. Picking particular objectives to focus on is probably a better practice to keep fresh.
- Injuries and life in general will make constant peak training impossible. I’ve yet to meet a single lifter who didn’t take a break from max training for some reason or another. This gives the cns a break.
- I don’t think I’ve ever experienced the second type of fatigue unless I was distracted with personal issues or something. Not to say I pr every session, but if everything is on point, I hit my objectives, but I always have a few in mind, not just one number, which is cheating a bit, like they do at Westside with max effort, they don’t pr a single every time and if feeling a little off, they will pr a triple or a five repper instead with a particular variation.
The part people often forget about bUlGaRiAn TrAiNiNg is the copious COPIOUS amounts of PEDs lol
Many systems emulated Bulgarian as well look at team Astana (ilyas team) with the Kazakh lifters. Ilya kinda just maxed out every week
I don't get disheartened by failed lifts. I know I'll get it next attempt once recovery and form have been addressed....
Form should not be the reason you fail a max attempt lift lol
There’s a limit to everything and nothing lasts forever…I’d give anything to be in my 20s again
@@brandonyoung4910 form is never perfect doofy
I’m 32 still feel similiar to in my 20s with some minor tweaks though now. But I’ve gotten a lot smarter. no more grinders lol and going for broke on low rep prs. Never bother doing a true 100% rep max anymore. Heaviest I’ll ever go is I’ll work up to 90ish% and treat it as a speed rep to see where I’m at. And the results are much better. Makes a big difference approaching your heavy work with total confidence and focusing on moving it as fast as you can
@@Biglenny-v9r exactly . You can't replace valuable knowledge .and it's stupid to go for 100 percent 1 rep max . I have solid idea what my max is based off a triple . I'd rather do a single that's explosive then a grinder that will cost a pec tear . Idiots never learn they get hurt an do it all again
The best lagging indicator of fatigue imo is grip strength. When I'm towards the end of a block I notice I can't grab a bumper 45 and load it onto the bar with one hand vs the beginning of a block when I'm more well rested and they feel like pillows. When that happens appropriately during the block I know I've managed fatigue properly. Too early and I've ramped up too quickly, too late and I've been sandbagging.
Note that although it is a lagging indicator I've found it only lags by a few days at most. Where fatigue is peaked at the last week of a block, by the end of the first week of the next block I've recovered pretty much 100%.
As a climber pretty much nothing that Bromley says is directly applicable for me and still almost everything is. I have watched hours and hours of videos about training for climbing and still Bromley's videos have been the most valuable by driving home the fact that consistency is key. If you have a plan that scales and that you can keep up, you will see progress.
Don't expect miracles, expect results.
Any athletic endeavor will operate on essentially the same principles. Any movement progress will rely on neurological and tissue adaptations. Any training program revolves around volume, intensity, and frequency as the key variables.
Very well put! Training a variety for my work requirements, his teaching and principles are applicable to the work demands and requirements to lift, swim, climb, run, drag, and go for hours.
Some of best training wisdom I’ve ever received was something along the lines of: ‘adaptations are not linear, the human body is a very complex biological system.’
In essence just because you failed to put 5 pounds on your bench this week doesn’t automatically mean you failed to provide the proper stimulus last week. It’s likely that you did, just that your body hasn’t caught up. Soviet sport scientists took note of this, and is likely why their programming structure is complex, with volume and intensity constantly waving.
Happend to me this week, on Sunday hit a 5KG bench pr, Monday hit a 10KG squat pr and a 15KG power clean pr (plus multiple prs in the 3-5 rep range in weeks leading up to this week). Went to deadlift yesterday and felt like I hit a wall, made my last warmup and couldn't even budge the working set off the ground, taking the next 10 days off and then start my new block.
Holyyyyyy 15kg power clean PR? yuuuge! Grats!
As someone who did some powerlifting meets in the past, this makes a lot of sense. Most of my training still revolves around those lifts, but I rarely go after maxes. In fact, the only times I end up going for them is on days when the warmups are flying, or my working sets feel really good. Being in my late 50s, I know that my recovery is generally going to take longer than younger lifters, so I always try to keep two rest days between my compound lifts.
One very important thing that's left out in the discussion of Bulgarian training in this video that Max Aita talks about in his discussion of Bulgarian training is that those lifters were the genetic anomalies who were able to survive and make it through the process. Just like with military special forces training, most of the people who entered the program didn't make it through and dropped out.
You can not compare the two at all . The Bulgarian stuff was lifters on tons of gear. Gear helps recovery significantly especially the amount they took
I've waited 25 years for someone to properly cover this topic! Thank you!
"punchy" & "grindy" are THE clearest explanations I've ever heard! You have a great talent for explaining these concepts in a way that is so understandable & memorable 🙏🙌👏👏👏
As a powerlifter, I rarely go for even heavy singles in the off-season, usually only once every other month to maybe once a month. Yes during prep you have to ladder up your singles but most of your off-season is done around RPE 7-8, and it's a lot of 4-8 rep ranges
That's wise. I'm an amateur powerlifter too, both me and my training buddies are off season right now, but some of them are still trying to hit prs on triplets and singles every damn day. Their body, their rules, but this is snap city just waiting to happen imho
The general recommendations about about deadlifting being harder to recover from than the squat never lined up for me. I’m 6’2” with slightly longer arms. My torso angle is more or less the same on squat (low bar) as it is deadlift (Conv) - Difference being I’m going through much more knee flexion on squat. So what’s more taxing, more muscles going through a greater range of motion or breaking the floor on a deadlift. My subjective feeling is that a deadlift 4x2 at 86% leaves me feeling ready for more. However a squat 4x3 at 84% has me wishing my accessories for the day were lower in volume.
Same bro and I’m just one inch taller than you. Squats notoriously wreck my cns much more than a deadlift any day in a 1:1 comparison
@@brandonyoung4910 even with my deadlift being 100lbs more than squat it still gets me this way. Must be a tall person thing haha. Although, I peak very well after a taper which I also attribute to being tall for similar reasons. Because even though I well leveraged for the deadlift I still have to move the bar much farther than a short person with less ideal levers - more volume per rep.
I'm 6'2.25 similar build to you, I agree completely. I feel more taxed from back squats than deadlift. I fixed this issue by going to front squats though, that's my recommendation because it doesn't drain the posterior chain but targets the legs even more than back squat (especially for someone with our build) so you can recover easier and deadlift without carryover fatigue from leg day
@@stephenburial im 245 lbs. 6 plate deadlift, 4 plate squat haha. It’s just not worth the cns fatigue for me to train squat often
@@simondean5227 for general strength and hypertrophy I could see this working well! I’m a powerlifter though so I gotta back squat. I wouldn’t say recovery is a problem, more so about finding *my* proper exposure balance between conventional deadlifts and low bar squats.
Just gotta say, i used to max out almost wvery session during my LP/beginner days. But when I stuck to your Bullmastiff (and 70s PL now), Ive never felt more confident in my lifts and well rested. Despite the 5x10s and plus sets. Currently on peaking phase wave 2 of 70s PL. cant wait to see whats in store.
My run of bullmastiff was pretty good.
Squats went from 315x1 to 360x5
Bench from 240x1 to 260x5
DL from 415x1 to 475x1
And ohp from 155x1 to 170x1.
Cant wait to run more of your programs.
Louie Simmons has stated that after 90 % of max training for 3 weeks u start going backwards n from experience that seems correct n Louie was a reliable source to learn from.. And Dorian Yates has said after 6 weeks u hit a wall n should change % or intensity n u had Vince Gironda suggested after 4 weeks take a week off there is 3 great examples that were pretty much on the same page so live n learn.
Dorian Yates is not qualified to speak on the subject he was a body builder , he doesn't know anything about getting stronger or in better athletic shape. All he knew was diet an taking large amounts of gear and bodybuilding. I wouldn't take anything he says serious when it comes to geting stronger
I Max out every week on a squat/deadlift/good morning/ pressing movement followed up 72 hours later by a dynamic effort session (concurrent method) I use a velocity sensor to track my stimulus to fatigue ratios and bar speeds and as useful as this all is I still experience cns fatigue from time to time. I even use an oura ring to dictate my readiness for the day and limiting my exposures from time to time helps but cns fatigue is the real deal !
Part of the issue with maxing and CNS failure is how training is promoted. Much more often than not we hear and see people going super hard, heavy and to failure. It’s catchy! Nobody wants to see a person with an RIR of 3-4 on a set. For younger lifters who don’t have a ton of knowledge this is dangerous. Also, when a newbie trains really hard the gains come quick, and there is a tendency to think more is better. In reality, it’s just the opposite. Fatigue will always be part of effective training. But how to manage it effectively is key. Lots of rest - quality food - lower stress and a plan that is flexible.
For what it's worth, I've never been in a situation where I failed the lift I "should have" hit where I didn't have at least some physical symptom that something involved in that lift was a little strained or unhappy so I tend to think there's more of a physical explanation. If the nervous system is limiting you it may be because the physical structure isn't 100% not the nervous system. Anecdotally I've had tons of times where I'm too "burnt out" to usefully train one lift, but I can go all out and even set some kind of pr on a not too different one. So tldr conjugate
I've been always quite experimental with my training. Tried swimming, runing (short and long distances), box jumps, long jumps, squat jumps, pistol squats, pull-ups and other bodyweight exercises, volleyball, basketball, shot put, max deadlifts, squats, bench, shoulder press, same last 4 exercises for reps, snatches and c&js... The 3 exercises that tire me the most are clean&jerks (heavy sets of 2-3 reps), fast running and rope jumps. Max squats or deadlifts don't fatigue me nearly as much, and in fact those often bring me some great dopamine rush.
@donnie9365 I used to armwrestle a lot as kid. It was popular in my primary school since 1st grade and I loved it through my teenage...
I did 180 dumb bell bench press one week and haven't since (in part do to a health emergency, but there were several weeks of good health where I couldn't get back to that). That health emergency is believed to be a nervous system issue (pain doc says pinched nerves, but neurologist feels different (MRI does not show disc bulging into nerves)). This is very interesting.
Great video ! I have read many articles & watched many a video on CNS fatigue but with all the knowledge & application it still rears its ugly head time to time but less often. For me at its worst it feels like my brain is floating in embalming fluid & my performance is commensurate with that. How I minimise it from occurring is i always leave a rep or two in the tank, rest about 5min or more between top sets but never sit, belly breath to make sure I’m fully oxygenated before a big heavy set & stay hydrated. I take forced rest days between big sessions. With all this I still get CNS fatigue, why? The X factor, external non gym related stressors & inadequate and/or poor quality sleep. As for what is more likely to cause CNS fatigue for me personally: top - bottom. Farmers walk, Zercher Squats, RDLs, Conv deadlifts, Squats, Military Press, Bench Press.
I just started my second hypertrophy block as a powerlifter and it has made a huge difference. When I was running conjugate I was struggling with recovery and getting thorugh workouts because of my crappy fitness level. After a 12 week program my fitness level has at least doubled, my heart rate returns to below 100 in 1-2 minutes instead of 5 like before. Also I feel a lot stronger despite it being hypertrophy focused. Doing sets of 6 on the main lifts really made a difference for me. Last october I opened with a 455 deadlift and laft week I hit 475 for 5.
I just started working out a little over 2 months ago . Going heavy 3 days a week . Doing 5x5 strong lifts . Wonder if I could do heavy one week , and lighter the next week 8-12 reps ?
Pre workouts and stimulants will also mask the symptoms of CNS fatigue. If you find it difficult to workout and stay interested without them then your body is telling you something. Accepting it is the biggest challenge. You miss a lift and "panic" you may get frustrated and leave and come back a few days later and max again to prove to yourself you are not getting weaker. It can be a vicious cycle mentally. You may miss a weight and look back and say "i hit this 3 months ago in training" all this time i wasted and haven't gotten stronger.
As someone who uses the conjugate method of training and hits heavy singles on lower and upper body each week, it is entirely possible to do so, but you need to have the training experience, knowledge and wisdom to create a program that allows for it, and also be very disciplined when it comes to fatigue management, AKA: recovery. As for why I train like this, I love hitting heavy singles. I look forward to my training every week because of the challenge and adversity that only heavy singles can provide. Most lifts are conservative singles within the 95-98% range, but if I'm feeling good, I'll go for a new PR and rarely miss because again, the program is designed around it and recovery is prioritized heavily.
Hey Bromley, hope you're well
At about 14:04 you talk about a citation on the adrenal glands of Bulgarian lifters benefitting from some adaptation, was there any more information about this? And where was this info from ? I've been scouring some databases but can't find studies
I struggle with this on the bench, I've had when I don't bench, I already lost a bit of strength, so I always try to at least do some heavy work on the bench instead of a deload because I don't wanna make it "easy" on that stubborn pec muscle.
The hypothetical story you told at the beginning... this is something I have only just now started experiencing while powerbuilding. I'm also experiencing it now due to my med dose being cut in half due to ADHD med shortages. My meds are a CNS stimulant so it makes sense that since it's being less stimulated my strength has taken a small hit
The only time i noticed a total cns fatigue was a couple of years ago. I had a long lay off( year and a half) and started body weight exercises to get back in shape. When i was in shape i could do 28-35 push ups in series up to 6, before numbers went down to 18-20 before failure. My first session after the lay off i hit 18-25 reps in series of 6. Next session, a WEEK LATER, well rested and feeling good i couldnt do more than 2 reps. My CNS was totally shut down... Never again i had this happen
Very educational and informative, miles ahead of the curve. I wish we had a range of rates of recovery for different modalities (strength sports, powerlifting) but you definitely have my like and my subscribe till then, good sir!
Really good video and great analogy of relating the muscles to a motor and the cns to an electrical charge
great video, discussions on this topic are very important. The cns takes far longer to recover than muscle does. It is for this reason that periodization of training will give the best gains in the long run.
So is the basic consensus on the topic of CNS fatigue to choose variations of the main movers in order to avoid plateaus? Will varying the main movers eliminate the need for deloads?
Load chippers for 5 years on end, 8 hour days. Then tell me cns fatigue isnt a "thing". Midway thru my 4th year I began forgetting how to tie my boots. I've been out of work for a year and a half now and still am not ready to go back.
Mentally everything is still there but I can't gey any push behind it. All my injuries are healed. My apendages just feel like over stretched rubber bands.
One week out from my first meet deadlifts and squat have been on the decline mainly squat took a deload at five weeks out week 4 strongest I’ve been through out my entire prep. But the last two weeks not so much even my 80 percent has been moving like a rpe 9 to 10. Dealing with insomnia as well. Any caffeine during my session feels like it over stimulating m.
Loving this as not many fitness influencers really talk about stuff like this
Hmmm this makes sense and kind of makes me feel less like crap.
I hit my PR 455lb deadlift last week. This week 425lbs was tough so I decided to do a Deload week and focus on speed
Same with my overhead press. I did 235 last week yet this week I can barely do a plate and a quarter
I'm a little skeptical of all this, but maybe there are different types of neurological fatigue that we need to be measuring differently and that could be a reason why the data doesn't line up with experience
Obviously. But the important thing is if the data doesnt line up with what everyones direct experience says, it implies you're not measuring what you think you're measuring. Until the 'exercise science' people find the thing that explains peoples performance, you're better off basing your training off what is empirically verifiable, not what the scientists are able to measure. As you correctly point out, they arent measuring the correct things (because they dont know what they are yet).
@@jjmarcos I'm not so sure as that
@@C-shadow this is how science is done. Empirical data overrides experimental data.
Deadlift & Squat, especially deadlift are more taxing on your Spinal cord compared to Bench pressing.. this is why its very taxing to the body , takes longer to recover from deadlifting or good Squat leg workout compared to bench pressing..
Dam bro I started watching at like 20k and now look at you big jumps lets see that 500k
One of your best videos! Awesome content sharing this.
Bromley, you should put your patreon link in the description and in the about section of your channel. You might get more members that way.
Shallow take on bench press, it does use a lot more muscles than mentioned. Even back can get sore from a strong static contraction.
"Using" and "training" are 2 different things. You can't bench well with sore lats or biceps but benching won't do anything to grow them.
Bromley been going off lately, quality content
Didn't Michael MacDonald essentially max out in every bench press training session? Or is that just what a fool believes?
According to Dr Mike, the Bulgarians also had essentially a spa experience lifestyle, all meals provided, massage, and sex workers. They literally only had to train, eat, sleep and relax.
I was in the comments when the know-it-all triggered Bromley, I knew a video response was coming soon
I envy streamers for their ability to yell at people in real time. Video responses are all I have....
The only thing i disagree with is squats not being as taxing (with respect to volume/bodybuilding). High volume squats or a tom platz leg day will have your cns fried a bit to absolutely fucked
Another banger as always. This stuff shouldn’t be free! 🔥🔥
Pedantic is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors, caring too much about minor details, or emphasizing their own expertise especially in some narrow or boring subject matter.
What do you think about powerbuilding??
10:35 dude what?? "The deadlift takes so much longer to recover from than something like, the deadlift"
Bulgarians also maxed squats differently, it was never done as a grindy 10 second lift, if it wasn't doable fast it wasn't worth doing.
Also the Bulgarian system was not sustainable. Lifters routinely, we're over trained and and fizzled out those that stayed often used a lot of tricks like literally not doing the the workout. There's a reason why Olympic weightlifters don't do that program.
10:35 "the deadlift is more taxing that the deadlift"
you mean deadlift more taxing than the bench press
you had me tripping fr
If you max out on a different variation it might be that you are not efficient enough to perform a true max, to some extent.
It might be both that it doesn't tax the structures the same, as well as your inefficiency preventing the true max. Think about it, you didn't practice that variation enough to be good at it's light compared to where it would be if you had it mastered. I think for that reason it would need to tax a structure relevant to the lift equally if not more. It would also have to be these structure that could handle more cause you just maxed out the previous week. Maybe that's where Louie got his hip extension fetish from.
5:19 why bigger arms indicate that he spent more time in the gym?
Jokes on you, my CNS and brain have been fried from years of crippling depression! HHA...HA...ehuhuh :'(
Eat beef and eggs only .. goodbye depression
@@wearetheremnants1615 nah I'm bipolar, beef and eggs can't fix that 😂
@@StephanAndreMusic yes it can.. check out revero health. Thousands of people fixed .( Shawn baker )
@@wearetheremnants1615 my guy, I eat eggs and beef regularly. Beef and eggs aren't going to fix a mental illness like BP. I'm also aware of Shawn Baker, and he's a carnivore zealot. I've tried Carnivore, I've tried vegan, I've tried keto, all were awful and worsened my health/mental health.
@@wearetheremnants1615 To think that any form of diet and exercise and even lifestyle can cure depression or any mental health condition falls under the realm of homeopathic nonsense. It's very much a physical brain issue with how certain chemicals are signaled and received. Drugs help much more to balance things out well when prescribed by a psychiatrist, and therapy helps with using better coping skills and figuring out better ways to think about things. Diet and exercise cannot fix all that.
I think you could do heavy singles weekly... but not true maxxing
im not juiced to the gills so imma just follow my not so high rpe program
Please oh please make a follow-up to this. It would be great to talk about how to recognize and avoid the second type of longer term CNS fatigue. Whether it’s sets and reps or exercise selection etc. As someone who auto regulates my biggest issue is controlling this. It often is frustrating as I have weeks of PRs (one to two reps) then the next week I can’t even get through half the reps. I will try again the next week to confirm that it’s not sleep nutrition etc. and by the time I take my deload week it’s been like a month of sub optimal training which is hard physically but also mentally.
I really have not seen anyone address this. It would be great if you did!
I might not know what CNS fatigue is but I know what it feels like
I hope that I (my comment 4 days ago) don't fall into the category of the know it all.
What you said differed from what I've learned, that was all.
Or maybe this has nothing to do with me 😅
A turnip? My mom always said you can't squeeze blood out of a stone hahaha
I don't really care what the studies find on the sort of fatigue you describe. Who cares wether it is some receptor measuring tendon fatigue or CNS fatigue or whatever. It is a real thing most lifters will experience. If studies aren't able to explain it, they should research it more if they expect there to be a way to recover faster when we understand it better.
In the meantime, we deal with the phenomenon in a sensible way and figure training out ourselves. Notice how decades of research hasn't really changed anything about how we train, at least not in any fundamental way.
You failed to address the fact that sleep diet and time in between each workouts also affects this
Sleep and Diet =1.4% Dumbass Training Decisions = the rest.
Sleep and diet is the most repeated advice in the lifting sphere, so much that I'm not going to waste anyones time repeating it.
Hey Bromley, I see you mention that high intensity doing heavy triples is what drives CNS fatigue but I’ve seen others say that it’s excessive volume that drives CNS fatigue. If it’s caused by intensity why do others say it’s driven by volume or am I misunderstanding you?
Seems there isn't a consensus about what we are talking about when we say CNS fatigue. I'm talking about the phenomenon of strength dropping the session after a really, really heavy effort, after everything else should be recovered. It's the reason elite powerlifters put several weeks between their last heavy attempt and the meet. I dont have faith that the research around this thoroughly addresses it
@@AlexanderBromleyThat’s where I’m confused because I see someone like Mark Rippetoe talking about overtraining with too much volume and it seems like he and others believe that drives it and not intensity. Is he talking about something else because I’m thinking of overtraining and CNS fatigue as the same thing but then you say it’s high intensity causing it and he is saying too much volume is going to make you run into a wall. Which is right ?
@@kainzabihi8529I don’t know if this help but when people say cns fatigue they mean when their motor output is lower and they can’t produce strength
Not necessarily being tired or overtrained because that can be other stuff
Or even connective tissue🤷♂️
This must be the reason that if I hit a PR, even if I feel like my muscles could rest a few min and add a bit more weight, I often find nothing happens 😂. It’s like my brain said “Alright we did it!” on the first PR and just turned off.
You want to add more weight on top of PR?! :D
It really doesn’t matter how strong you are right now, cause when you snap, it’s gone.
you'll see me ?! HOW ???
I'm sad I just found this video.
Que the Ilya ilyin documentary where they max out every week 😂
I hate the know it alls and whiny loser. Too much echo chamber, not even practical experience typically. Unable to see both sides. Wait am I the whiny loser? 😂 great video.
If your joints and lumbar are sore, you know you're getting enough training intensity. I never cared too much maxing out since I run a 3 week microcycle volume. I just max out at end of the microcycle. That seems to be my sweet spot.
Its caused by your chestnuts
There isn't any need of lab science: fatigue is cumulative, so a lifter has to manage it.
I'm bored out of context
first
Third
Firfth!
First?
In my experience the Nervous System fatigues with respect to specific functions. From common sense, empirical analysis, after peaking for a true 1 rep max, if I do not deload and rebuild by starting the next 1-6 weenk, 8 week or 12 week period at a reduced weight that represents a load that is x percent higher than my last strength cycle. It tends to be movement specific meaning 2 things (some movements cannot be trained heavy week in a d week out for long wirhout trashing your strength which goes in reverse. It also means that regardlessof tbe compound lift, training too heavy with the same move over and over will fail to resultin strength gains as yoyr body is use to the the stimulus and adapts to it striving to avoid supercompensation (soms cl this the biological law of accommodation). Either way, if your body has recovered structurally, advanced athletes are not capable of maintaining peak strength for very long. You are better off taking deload to enhance recovery and resume teaining in a hypertrophy phase if you adherr to Western Periodization or to switch your mac effort lift every 2-3 weeks if you adhere to conjugate,.
Many liftsrs use a hybrid blend of Western Periodization to avoid to pitfalls inherent in each system. The fact is there is fatigue that cannot be attributed to a lack of structural recovery. Every serious strength athlete experiences this from time to time
🦍🔥🦍
i know a 60yo guy training everyday and maxxing out benchpress , he wont share his training routine
but i assume he keep his volume extremly low , how else should this be possible
he pressed over 200kg in the past
his channel name is walterkurda