How Disney Inspired a Generation of Designers
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- Опубликовано: 20 дек 2022
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Would you believe us if we told you that game designers are constantly stealing open-world designs from Disneyland theme parks? From the moment you walk through the gates to the highly themed areas. Designers have been stealing these key points to find better ways to organize their own open world and help players feel more immersed in their content.
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🤣went to Disneyland with family this year, resistance was a 3 hour wait, it was also worth it, IMO.
Have a happy day! And a Merry Christmas!
I'd argue that Adventureland is actually designed well by being harder to find. Once you get to the central hub, the bridge to Tomorrowland is a very enticing direction to go, almost as if the park designers are directing you to start working your way around the wheel from there. However, if you want to go on an adventure, what thematic sense would it make for an unexplored jungle to have a massive, dramatic entrance? By using your guide map and exploring the park, you're rewarded by suddenly coming across the Adventureland attractions. That moment is made even stronger by using foliage and trees to completely block your view of the castle, making you feel like you're deeper in the jungle than you really are.
This is absolutely right. Despite being physically only a few feet from Main Street, it feels nearly as secluded as Galaxy’s Edge!
I concur. You have to be adventurous to seek out Adventure Land, which was my favorite part of the park as a boy back in the late 60s and very early 70s. Enchanted Tiki Room, Jungle Cruise, Swiss Family Robinson tree-house, Pirates of the Caribbean, Tom Sayer Island... Even as a teen, after my family moved out of California, vising Disney Land (courtesy of the US Marine Corps) during the end of ticket books and the beginning of true open world Disney Land, Adventure Land was my favorite. Now you would have to PAY ME to visit Woke Land. Pay me a lot.
lol lmao
It's a shame the designers of more recent overseas Disneylands didn't take this to its logical conclusion by having their versions of Adventureland switch places with one of the "DLC" zones that by this point they were building in from the start, to make it even more out-of-the-way.
Although the lands at Disney are hard themed, at least in the Florida park (which was to fix all the issues with the California park), you should really look at how those themes transition. The ground, the decor, the buildings… all carefully chosen to split the difference and gracefully and gradually transition from one themed area to the other. Extremely clever, thoughtful design.
I too much prefer the gradual transitions, in both theme parks or MMORPG worlds. It feels more immersive, and like the act of journeying from one place to another is a little experience in and of itself.
@@Julia_and_the_City Yep. A hard line between zones is always a bit jarring. It's like wandering a desert in Minecraft only to suddenly find yourself stepping into a glacier.
Thank you for posting. I played that clipped over several times, and never figured out what hee said. Hard theme. New term for me.
This also helped me think about some of the ways Pokémon misstepped with their trek into open-world. There was an over-reliance on expecting the player to use the map to help them find where they're going than using landmarks. You get the 18 main objectives marked on your map towards the end of the tutorial, but very few of those places (Levincia and the Glaseado Mountain are the 2 main exceptions I can think of) are visible until you get close, and if you just explore you can get interrupted with an intro cutscene if you get near to an objective without realising because you can't see that you're heading towards it as there's no landmark.
Someone likely mentioned this already, but the Disneyland train system that runs around the park is very much like fast travel between significant or often visited locations.
I feel like it’s important to note that, in the original Disney terminology, large points of interest that draw you into certain areas of the park (like Sleeping Beauty Castle) are called-
Wait for it…
Weenies.
And in modern level design parlance, the same is still true!
Pfffffheheheheheheheheee
Giggles 😅😃😅😋😃😋
Disney actually gave a reason for ToonTown's opening. They said it was there the whole time, inspiring the location of disneyland and was the place the characters went to after closing time, that's why it's outside the tracks. In the 90's they decided to open it up to the rest of the guests.
For the case of Galaxy's Edge, it actually is a world of its own, being a different canon. But that hasn't stopped disney from bringing the characters and story to Tomorrowland.
Something you forgot to mention is that disneyland is modeled after Knott's Berry Farm. Walt visited the farm multiple times to speak with Walter Knott when Walt was designing Disneyland
Disney's entire career was taking other people's ideas, iterating on them, and turning them into massive successes.
So so many good childhood memories of Knotts
He also borrowed heavily from Greenfield Villiage in Michigan. Really cool place if you're ever near Detroit.
@@ThisJustIn1516 I have been. Saw it when I visited my uncle in 2007
They didn't "forget." They either weren't aware, as it's not common knowledge, or they didn't feel there was time to go on an unrelated tangent which would thereby unfocus the video content.
I remember like a decade ago I saw a talk titled something like "Everything I Learned About Game Design Came From Disneyland" and it went into a lot of the same details
The city of Florence in Italy has a large central building that functions as a navigation landmark. It was even constructed to attract pilgrims -- the tourists of the time.
I really think Dark Souls 1 should be used as a great example of how to integrate DLC personally. It was extremely clever to use time-travel to basically 'layer' two areas above each other, letting you see a familiar place when it was in its heyday.
That's not the sort of trick a physical park can pull of quite~ yet~, but in that game it works great.
I was thinking exactly the same thing! Dark Souls 1 separates the DLC into a totally different map for gameplay easy, but it stays thematically tied, as if you could walk from one place to the other and not feel like they're entirely unconnected. Fromsoft does a pretty good job (for the most part) of masking up the stitches when then tie a new DLC world onto the original game.
That's a trick from Sorcery, the Choose Your Own Adventure Game, actually!!! :D
Give Disney time and they'll eventu-
Dude, didn't you read the news?
They started that experience last month!
It's not just open-world games. I recall the developers at Cyan saying that they took a lot of inspiration from Disneyland when they designed the layout of the original Myst.
Now I not only know how Disneyland affects open world games but I now also know how to get around the place! Now that's a good deal
The World of Warcraft example is also cool because the lay of the map depends on your faction. Some maps have two of these map layouts blended together, with some areas working for both factions. Pretty cool to see it evaluated like this.
Furthermore, vanilla WoW (especially pre-Cataclysm) had some undeveloped and under-developed areas that left space for future expansion content. ...Much like how RL theme parks often open with extra space for future rides and attractions. It costs less time and money up front than building everything right away. And it gives their customers all the more reason to spend money on the place again later.
There are also Parkour towers all over disneyland that you can climb to get your map updated to find all the Disney collectibles nearby.
Disneyland being the precursor of open-world game design is the lovablesort of notion I come to this channel for.
I have to disagree on the design of Adventureland. It's actually one of my favorite design features of the park. It gives the park a distinct maze-like feel while making it difficult to get lost. As a result the park seems much larger than it actually is to anyone who starts out in that direction.
Think about it, you can get to Rivers of America via Frontierland (boring since it just looks like another section of the park), or you can wind your way through an exciting jungle and get to Rivers of America via New Orleans Square, and in doing so discover a whole "new" hub away from the main hub.
Probably my only gripe with this area is that it crams an Amazon theme in between three western frontier themes, but it does at least keep the conflicting themes out of sight from each other fairly well.
Also, I really enjoy how the "DLCs" of Disneyland were done. Having them at the edge but inaccessible from the main hub gives the reward of a unique experience to those who explore deeper into the park. Critter Country is the same way (or was before Galaxy's Edge opened). It's almost like a Stanley Parable mechanic where you don't feel like you have completed the game until every last corner is sought out.
All the folks from Extra Credits are a LOVABLESORT !
As a Theme Park designer and long time watcher of this show I love that you've made this episode. It's true and vice versa there's a lot games are doing now that can inspire the story telling in parks.
One idea for DLC that doesn't feel like an add on is to build up and into the existing structures in the game and story. Have a new guild move into the building that used to be a quiet home at the center of town. Have a group of mercenaries take up refuge in a dark alley you've explored many times before. Have an alien invade a previously peaceful section of a space station.
One of my favorite things to do in open world games is to find one of those big landmarks, climb to the top and see how much of the map I can see. I'd probably get kicked out if I tried to climb to the top of Cinderella's Castle, but imagine the view.
Parking lots galore... It would probably suffer from the same problem WoW had when they introduced flight to the whole game. It had been built to be seen from the ground, and much had to be redesigned to be accessible or even rendered. The park was probably not designed to be seen from there. That said, I'd do the same and certainly get kicked out as well.
Some additional thoughts: WDW in Florida was designed after Disneyland in CA, and had some design upgrades that learned from the more lackluster elements of CA. Plus they carried these mentalities forward into 3 new parks. I feel like you only scratched the surface.
Disney also completed the circle of life by learning from video games in exchange!! Different areas of different parks have quests and adventures for kids (or adults) that have CLEARLY been modeled on video game quests. The pirate maps in adventure land are a really fun way to kill some time.
New Vegas is one of my favorite examples of the “Big Looming Monument” style of play orientation. The big glowing towers of New Vegas, the T-Rex of Novac, the giant statue of two rangers handshaking, even just a roller coaster outside of the first area.
In Scott Rogers’ book, level up, he says you can learn everything about game design from Disneyland and he is pretty much right. I read that book in my 3rd year of college and took several trips to the park to learn.
Everything from the design of the park to the design of the queues and rides build curiosity, anticipation, and excitement. Rides are themed very appropriately and their designs are masterful examples of telling a story with physical space.
For example, Splash Mountain (I would say RIP but I’m excited for the retheme) has one big highlight, that tremendous drop.
Natural flow of traffic in either direction entices people with the drop and it’s front and center as the selling point of the attraction. Once you get on the ride, it’s one of the first things you really see as you turn a corner, and you’re more than likely to see people taking the drop. You have several smaller moments where you go up and take a drop prepping the rider to actually get incredibly anxious as the final slope up takes forever, all with ominous music and you approach the climax of the (literal) rising action. Then you take the giant drop and immediately met with catharsis and a happy ending celebration.
Always happy to see more Extra Credits videos. You guys are truly loveable sorts!
Oblivion did this really well. All of Cyrodiil spokes around the Imperial City
It's kind of amazing how do many fields can learn from other completely different topics.
Great video. I grew up going to Disney World and one of my favorite parts was just walking or exploring the park and seeing secrets and references from movies, cartoons, cancelled, or replaced attractions. I think people are so focused on getting to the attraction which is kind of like steamrolling through the main plot of an open world game when I think a part of the fun. Look at Animal Kingdom and try to find all the references to the canceled Beastly Kingdom section is one of my favorite discoveries such as an abandoned dragon cave that can still be viewed. I know that for as creepy and dystopian people make Disney out to be (and rightfully so sometimes), they feel like giant sets that are unlike anything in my regular life and I have an appetite to just explore and find out about it. Shame modern games also look at Disney to see how they can get more money out of the consumers
I had a strange thought about DLC. The magic portal problem or edge of the map seems unavoidable if you want a NEW area (personally my favorite is time-travel) BUT the one way you could have new area that isn't just at the end of the map would be a subterranean map where there are entrances ways that connect back to the main world in a way that makes sense. I suppose you could have the same in the sky but that would probably feel like a magic portal to have a sky world, as it would be literally disconnected.
Hey guys, I loved this video from an educational perspective. I work at a school that has a focus on gamification and we are constantly considering how to evoke a sense of mystery and wonder through our curriculum. It has also lead to some very interesting conversations about the need for a new type of educator that links games and game thinking to curriculum and pedagogy. They would be a bridge between students and teachers. Would be more than happy to talk more about it if you are ever interested in creating more content about games in education (loved your previous videos on the topic).
I love this topic! I've thought about the similarities that theme parks and game design, and this scratched that itch perfectly. I wonder if Disney understands this relationship and is implementing game design (or broader UX design) in its park design for the future!
What a fascinating analogy! This is gonna turn circles in my head for a while more. One thing I have to note: I thought the comparison with park additions to DLC was very apt. Two things that video games however can do that theme parks cannot: you can move existing world features around (try dismantling Space Mountain only to build it right back up again elsewhere), as well as warp space in non-euclidian ways. So this really begs the question (perhaps for commenters to answer, perhaps for a future video): why do addons to MMORPG's frequently feel so tacked-on?
Anyways, food for thought. Loved the vid, and love where the new channel is going!
Heya, had a weird moment when I saw this video in my feed last night, but don't remember watching it. Pulled it up today and the watch bar in the thumbnail said I had watched it already. It must have been so good I wished to see it for the first time again!
Longtime EC & Disney fan here! Thanks for the video! You guys are loveable sorts!
Idk if they can be used often, but GiveWell is a great sponsor, I've used them in the past to research charities and I'm glad to see them being pushed to encourage more giving
Thanks for keeping up with them great videos you loveable sorts!
I enjoyed this video. If the people who think Pokemon Scarlet and Violet aren't open world saw this video, they would redact their complaints as Paldea really hit all the notes in this video. Just like how the DLC in Pokemon Sword and Shield was similar to Disneyland's extra areas, shoved off to the side and requiring a ticket to get to them.
4:24 yup, the changing theme and even how cast members are called ("cast members", "miners", "crew", etc.) can be seen in Tokyo Disneyland and DisneySea.
Really enjoyed this video, very creative and insightful angle.
One thing I feel you missed out on big time was the connection between collectibles both in Open World games and in Disneyland, just like how games like Breath of The Wild has little korok seed locations scattered all over the map that you don't really need to look out for to fully enjoy the game, so too does Disneyland have its little Hidden Mickeys, small things that you can keep an eye out for as you're looking around the park and giving your money and soul to our disney overlords lmao
2:00 Genshin with Dragonspine for Mondstadt and Liyue, Grand Narukami Shrine for Inazuma, the Akademiya and Deshret's mausoleum for Sumeru's jungle and Desert respectively, I like how they add one for each new region where they're large enough to need it's own landmark. Seems every entrance to a new region also follows the small area leading up to the landmark, very cool
There's also smaller ones, like Mondstadt itself being elevated and emphasized with the windmills and Liyue having Wangshu Inn near the entrance from Mondstadt, or Sangonomiya Shrine dominating that island.
Great example! I do find I tend to look at the map more than anything, and kind of wish I could turn the map off. Though considering how the landmarks need to be readable on computer monitor and mobile screen, the 'composition' of the land is one of my favorite things.
Disney is just one of the places that attracts all kinds of "loveable sorts!" to it. It's been a while since I've been but I loved it.
You're such a lovablesort for making these videos.
You know how a lot of these open world games have like, seasonal themes? Like little events for different holidays that in some way or another add mostly cosmetic changes to the world around you? Like, there'll be a humungous Christmas tree in the hubworld square throughout December, a bunch of spooky pumpkins and bats flying around at Halloween, you can buy seasonal accessories, etc?
But it's almost always focussed primarily in the HUB area - aka the Mainstreet/Hub of the world, with very little overlap in the other areas beside maybe a few small cosmetics or outfit changes for the npcs and enemies?
Yeah, I think they got that from Disneyland too.
Allow me to thank you Loveable Sorts for always making such entertaining videos!
these videos are all kinds of loveable sorts!
Lovable sort!
Yep, yep and HECK YEAH!! it's how I design adventures for my table top games and even how I teach new rule systems to my players complete with the occasional themed snack like how you come across those carts you in Disneyland.
Hey I'm here watching this and the last video from you loveable sorts! Good luck on the new channel!
Oh, and a local park, King's Island, as a replica 1/4 scale Eiffel Tower. It sits in the middle of the park, where it can be seen from almost everywhere in the park. Many paths can be followed from the tower to major park areas.
There are multiple theme parks world wide who did this whole design before Disney did, and they honestly deserve the real Credits
Unconnected dlc open world areas I think work better in games that already have disconnected areas in the base game like Dragon Age: Inquisition and Witcher 3. You already know you will have to leave your current area to get to later areas so it isn't jarring and because of that it make sense that the area is vastly different than where you were before. I always felt that the ice dlc in Horizon: Zero Dawn didn't make much sense with how the rest of the layed out.
These are the videos that loveable sorts love to sort through and enjoy.
I can't even count how many open world games are just Manhatten Island...
This all makes perfect sense, and highlights good game design principles that help guide players through a world that could otherwise be overwhelming, but it also reinforces the problem I have with most open world games. The first open world game I played was No Man’s Sky, and I naïvely assumed that all open worlds would be like that: unfathomably vast, often hostile or bizarre, and fundamentally indifferent to the player. It’s up to you to find your way and discover the strange workings of the universe. But as I’ve learned more about AAA open worlds, I realise that this is an exception, and for all the problems that NMS has (current technology makes it hard for procedural generation to remain convincing and interesting beyond a few hundred hours), it feels a bit like a real, organic, messy world, rather than a theme park that has been painstakingly designed for my entertainment. I know a lot of people love theme parks, but I’d much rather explore a real wilderness than an “Adventure Land”, and I’d love to see more games that follow that philosophy.
Hi! Just found your channel. New sub. I being a geriatric non gamer, I still found your video fascinating. I just got lost on some gaming terms you used. It would help.if you defined a couple once in awhile. Thank you. It a great video. I never been to Disney, but watched numerous videoes.about the parks. Nine have ever described it the way you did. I know think back to some parks I have been to, and yes they were designed same way! Amazing!
Lovable Sort!
Fallout New Vegas does the landmark signage trick so well. I'm walking towards the Lucky 38 beacon - Oh, look, there's a huge dinosaur and a massive dome!
On the topic of Disneyland inspiration, Disneyland also had easter eggs. Both the famous hidden Mickeys as well as many other in jokes, such as various rides defunct rides being listed in the Haunted Mansion's graveyard.
7:30 - the fastpass video already exists, it's just over on the Defunctland channel :P
“Sleeping Beauty’s castle is massive!” *snorts in Floridian*
Keep up the amazing videos you Lovablesort crew!
It's also worth looking at the different designs of each Magic Kingdom park. Disneyland was not perfect, and was limited by its space and design philosophies of the 1950's. Study the evolution of the various Disneylands in Florida, Tokyo, Paris, Hong Kong, and Shanghai to see how different designers directly built off of/reimagined Disneyland for a new era.
These videos are the best kind of loveable sorts!
For what it's worth, from my understanding of the design of Fallout New Vegas, it was explicitly stated that things like the Novac dino, the Lucky 38 and the NCR Ranger Statue were explicitly designed to do a lot of these same things
You guys are loveable sorts!
6:16 to 6:25 literally the two Morrowind expansions, lmao
I think Disneyland has influenced design in non-open-world games as well; for example, Hollow Knight and Rain World, being non-linear, also have a sort of main-street area. In Hollow Knight, you have the tutorial area in King's Pass which leads into Dirtmouth and the main hub, Forgotten Crossroads. Rain World also has a linear tutorial area that leads into a hub, though it's not the main one.
I feel it's necessary to point out Elder Scrolls had one of the first 'open worlds,' and that the size of the map in Arena has yet to be hit again.
It also doesn't follow any of this, but that's due to computational limitations at the time, and almost everything aside from the towns being procedurally generated.
Best DLC Ever: Mass Effect 3 Citadel DLC. Did exactly what you said; added context to the existing world. Accessed from the same zone as other Citadel-related zones, the Silver Strip is a joy to walk through.
Something not touched on that Disney does amazing: Fixing you when things go wrong. My wife was suffering from really bad blisters one day to the extent that her feet were bleeding. We found a medical clinic almost instantly, walked in, no line, no questions beyond "what's wrong?", got cream, sunscreen, and bandaids that were the best I've ever seen (fit perfectly, no slippage, didn't wear off all day of more walking around), all at no cost, and within 15min we were back out in the park. Not sure how it relates to gaming, but it was yet again just another point of how Disney has the best customer service of anything I've ever seen.
My mom hated Disneyland/world, it was the weirdest counterpoint when we went to Disneyland when I was in 3rd grade. Nothing like a kid from Colorado going to a place they dream of, just to have their parent complaining about how little it has changed since they were kids... the lines, the shitty castle, and the pricing....
Really dampened the experience, didn't even want a souvenir.
6:30 I think another DLC that adds a lot of backstory and at least tries for some sort of emotional connection is The Champion’s Ballad. Best pay-to-play experience I’ve paid for, without a doubt
On a gameplay level it's more of the same with a couple cool toys and odd challenges. Like going around the park again with a wand that interacts with features. The cutscenes on the other hand are like the big light up parades.
Such loveable sorts!
These videos are the best kind of loveable sorts
You're all a superb, lovablesort team. Have a good one!
I found Ragnarok online did a good job with adding new places to the map when they dealt with the Satan Morroc storyline. They "destroyed" a main town (changed the map) and moved some maps around to add in new spaces. Yes they did add new expanded towns and pushed them to the side of the world map, but at least with this one particular instance I felt they did a good job circumventing the problem.
I know it's a bit recent, but I think it'd be good if you guys talked about the WotC new OGL situation.
Just replace the boss fights with having the worst verbal argument with your family and then driving home awkwardly
Disneyland is basically already a video game
One nifty thing game designers can learn from all this is to plan for future content right from the start. Leave space in your hubs for future natural linkages off to XYZ location, be it new fast travel options opening up, or buildings finishing construction, or whatever it takes. Or in something like a MMO, have roads under construction leading to some other region we hear about but can't access yet, then have said roads or whatever open up when the time comes. Alternately, don't be afraid to renovate. :)
Amazing video, thank you! I'm from Argentina and literally, today I found that Disneyland and Disney World are 2 different things hahaha.
"They make using their... truly nightmarish disease... a really awesome feeling." Matt, as misheard as I skipped through the sponsor read.
I truly believe that all open world games developed to help the horse get the credit they deserve in human history
2009 Conference: Everything I Learned About Level Design I Learned from Disneyland, by Scott Rogers, should be referenced here. One of the most impactful GDC conf as far as I know'
Also, Breath of the Wild actually wasn't based on Disneyland. It was based on a map of Kyoto. Himeji Castle was used as the stand-in for Hyrule Castle in earlier builds of the game. I guess the idea of a central icon to navigate a city goes back even further than Walt Disney?
Umm, Himeji Castle is in Himeji not Kyoto. I don't really understand how BotW's map corresponds to Kyoto in the first place but Himeji is definitely not the best supporting evidence.
That... isn't what the video is about.
Are you really so ignorant to assume the Japanese wouldn't base their every single breath in imitation of American splendor?
Lemme guess, you're a Russian bot...
The video isn't saying things are based directly from Disneyland....
@@jjbarajas5341 - it's technically in the title: "All Open Worlds are Disneyland". BotW is an open world, but not based on Disneyland (assuming the OP's source is valid). Therefore, the title is incorrect.
Which is a bit pedantic, considering the video goes into detail regarding what it's actually saying. However, technicaly: yes, saying "open world game X is not based on Disneyland" is a valid critique.
Having seen it myself, you missed the miles and miles of tunnels, roads and rooms of Disney Worlds underground. Talk about dungeon dives!
And just like Disneyland, large games need some easy way to get around, but only to certain areas, like a horse drawn carriage or something.
I think hellfire peninsula has scared me because at 5:18 I waiting for miss gnome to get squashed by a fel reaver or at least hear the noise of one!
Although obvious, it’s nice to watch this video and find pieces of it that are parts of games like Hollowknight, Outerwilds, and especially Subnautica
Man.
I am watching this while replaying Skyrim for the umpteenth time. At least in the early game, it follows this pretty closely.
With Whiterun in place of the Hub/Sleeping Beauty's castle.
It just hit me. The tutorial part of the start is rightly held up as how NOT to start a game. However, from the point where you leave Helgen until the first Dragon Fight, the game does a pretty good job of starting an open experience up with a semi-linear path that sets up the basics.
I remember learning this in my college course about game design :P good times.
Ok, I am definitely interested in what game mechanic you are comparing Fast Pass to. I have an idea, but I'm not 100% sure.
so many loveable sorts! of memories
I can't remember ever being to disneyland, this makes me wanna go and see the design. Though the nearest one is 1200 km away
I wonder how much of that game designer pilgrimage to Disney Land and its influence on open world design in video games was due to Jesse Schell's book "The Art of Game Design". It is, as far as I know, one of the most-read introductory books on the topic, and has shaped a generation of game designers. And in his book, the author often shares stories from his time working at Disney Land and the challenges he faced there.
this is such a lovablesort of channel
Fallout 4 and Skyrim follow your DLC point really well. Skyrim SHINES in Dragonborn and Fo4 gleams in Far Harbor. That said you make a heckuva point about crammed onto the edge of the map
It’s cool how even the gates change
So this was what you were talking about on the Arkham stream, I remember asking about an open world episode
"what?! you're joking! there is absolutely NO way this can be true!"
*readies notepad and cup of coffee*
go on. :3
Star Wars Galaxies, especially in its original incarnation, deliberately tried to avoid the Disney model, as it was intended that players would create their own content. And instead of "attractions" being at specific places on the map, we tried to create it so that they would spontaneously appear wherever the player happened to be at the time. Unfortunately the tech and computing power needed just wasn't there yet, and the massive success of WoW showed that players preferred the Disney model.